Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Will U.S. Marines Join Search in Tora Bora? Is It Time to Open New Front In War On Terrorism?

Aired December 20, 2001 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM: Marking 100 days since terrorists struck at America, President Bush takes stock.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We broke the Taliban's grip on Afghanistan. We took the war to the al Qaeda terrorists. We are securing our airways. We are defending our homeland.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Will U.S. Marines join the cave-by-cave search in Tora Bora? Is it time to open a new front in the war on terrorism? We'll go live to Afghanistan and to the White House, and I'll speak live with former National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft, Senator Evan Bayh of the Intelligence Committee and Senator Chuck Hagel of the foreign relations committee, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

BLITZER: Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington.

100 days ago, the United States faced a highly-coordinated terrorist attack that killed thousands. Today, President Bush announced more steps in the fight against terrorism.

Where does the U.S. war stand right now and where is it heading? we'll focus on that over the next half hour. But first, the latest developments.

And we begin in Afghanistan, where British Marines have arrived to keep the peace, and sources say U.S. Marines are preparing to explore al Qaeda caves. CNN's Nic Robertson has that and much more. He's live in Jalalabad -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, indications already in Afghanistan that there is much need for an international peacekeeping force in the northern city of Mazar-e Sharif. A grenade apparently was tossed into a busy market in that northern city. The grenade, health officials say, injured 100 people, six of them, they say, seriously. Officials are calling it a terrorist attack. No one has claimed responsibility but it was -- we are told it was a fragmentation grenade that was thrown into the money changer's market when it was very busy in the late afternoon.

In the caves further south near Tora Bora the search has been continuing for any clues about al Qaeda, any clues about Osama Bin Laden. That is being conducted at the moment by U.S. special forces. We have heard overnight helicopters flying into the area.

Now, also, U.S. military sources telling us that 500 -- up to 500 Marines could be joining those U.S. special forces in the cave-to-cave search. The importance there to gather information in a timely fashion before more heavy snow falls, makes the task there much harder.

And across the border in Pakistan, Pakistani authorities say they have now arrested 189 Arab or al Qaeda fighters who have come out of Afghanistan, come out of the Tora Bora range around the town of Perekinovah (ph). There is very tight security. Pakistani forces and local militias have set up roadblocks in that area.

Now, the day before, Pakistani officials had had six of their border guards killed in a shootout with al Qaeda which resulted in the death of seven al Qaeda members who they were trying to transport to a prison facility. 21 of them had escaped. But during the day, they say that they were able to capture all but five of those escapees. However, that resulted in the death, they say, of two more Arab fighters and one Pakistani officer.

And that -- that peacekeeping force arriving in at Bagram Air Base by night. That is the advance guard of British Royal Marine forces. 70 of them arrived at Bagram Air Base. There are expected to be about one and a half thousand British troops. It will be part of a 16-nation international peacekeeping force. The advance elements arriving in advance of the Saturday, December the 22, official handing over of power to Afghanistan's interim government. A peacekeeping force a part of the agreement to inaugurate that government -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic, in light of the grenade attack in Mazar-e Sharif and the other violence that we have seen over the past few days, how chaotic is the situation in Afghanistan right now?

ROBERTSON: It's perhaps, Wolf, as chaotic as it has always been. One of the things the Taliban did in this country through their harsh rule was to disarm a lot of the people and to bring stability and security to some of cities. With those forces gone, it is reverting in many cases to the pre-Taliban days of warlordism and of rural banditry. And -- and in many cases we are seeing that.

There were a group of Western photographers working for "the New York Times" and other organizations on the mountains of Tora Bora yesterday. They had their -- their camera equipment taken from them by local Eastern Alliance fighters. And again, in the -- in the city of Mazar-e Sharif, grenade blast.

There are a lot of weapons in this country. There is a history -- 22 years most recently -- of fighting. And a stabilization force here to bring a level of security to people in cities and a peace of mind, essentially, that there is one force here that's not out to -- not out to get what they can from the people is what many, many people in Afghanistan really want, Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic Robertson reporting live from Jalalabad. Thank you very much.

And this important programming note. Nic will have more at the top of the hour, and later at 11:00 p.m. Eastern, in his special report, "LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN."

On September 11, terrorists launched carefully-planned attacks against America, with devastating results. You are looking at a live picture of ground zero 100 days after the terrorists struck.

At the White House today, they're calling this the 100th day in the war against terrorism. Let's go live to our White House correspondent Major Garrett. Major, what did the president do to mark this day?

MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, the Bush administration is fond of saying that a financial strike in the war on terrorism is just as important as a military strike.

And the president sought to underscore that message today by taking two more strikes in the financial war against terrorism: one against a group the president said is really a front charity that operates in Afghanistan, that has been funneling vital information to al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden about nuclear weapons, biological and weapons -- essentially, weapons of mass destruction that could at some point in the future be used against the United States or other sympathetic countries; and another move against another group, also based in Pakistan, that is part of an organized terrorist operation, the White House says, to undermine the governments of India and Pakistan.

And in so doing, the president put the United States' financial war against terrorism right in between the conflict between India and Pakistan, two allies that have supported the international coalition against terrorism, but two allies that nevertheless are having a very difficult time resolving their differences over Kashmir.

So in this sense, the White House is stepping up the campaign financially against global terrorism on many fronts.

Additionally, the president marked this 100th day by summarizing in the Rose Garden some of the military compliments -- accomplishments achieved to date.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Over the past 100 days, we and our British allies and others in the coalition have destroyed at least 11 terrorist training camps inside Afghanistan, terrorist factories that produce thousands of trained operatives. We've also destroyed 39 Taliban command-and- control sites. Senior al Qaeda and Taliban officials have been captured or killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GARRETT: Wolf, the president also mentioned that the humanitarian effort in Afghanistan is going well. There is going to be an international security force there, as you mentioned just a moment ago. There's a new Afghanistan government. So the president is saying, generally, after 100 days the administration and the coalition have exceeded expectations on many fronts -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And on the issue of John Walker, the American Taliban fighter captured by the U.S., the White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer today suggested the president was not about to make a decision, at least not this week. Maybe not even next -- next week.

Does that mean that there is a serious debate underway within the administration on this issue?

GARRETT: There is a serious fact-collection process going on now, Wolf, and after that fact-collection process there probably will be a great deal of debate about the future of John Walker.

The military went in first and extracted as much information from John Walker as they could, tactical information what al Qaeda may or may not be planning as the campaign.

Now FBI investigators are dealing with John Walker, interrogating him, to see what range of options the Justice Department has as far as a criminal prosecution.

Once all that information gets back to the White House the president will make a determination, but it may be familiar to many of our viewers from many of the detective shows they're fond of, sometimes you interrogate and also lay before a potential person you intend to prosecute a number of options, and in so doing entice as much information out of that person as you possibly can. That's what's going on now -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you very much. Major Garrett over the White House.

Should the United States start looking for new targets in the war on terrorism? Joining me now here in the CNN WAR ROOM, Senator Evan Bayh of the Intelligence Committee, former National Security Adviser Brent Scowcroft, and Senate Foreign Relations Committee member Chuck Hagel.

Remember you can e-mail WAR ROOM questions. Go to my web site, cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily online column.

General Scowcroft, let me begin with you. There seems to be a lull right now in the actual war on the ground. Is that accurate?

BRENT SCOWCROFT, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I think there is a lull because most of the organized resistance has disappeared. The Taliban are nowhere to be found and al Qaeda is -- the remnants are still holed up in the caves. But yes, the fighting has almost gone away.

BLITZER: So are you suggesting, though, that there's going to be a startup of the fighting someplace else, some military action someplace else any time soon?

SCOWCROFT: I think we shouldn't presume because we have knocked them out -- or -- or at least confused them in Afghanistan that the network has been demolished. I believe there are over 50 bases, networks around the world, and they are still intact.

BLITZER: It's going to be an operation. The scene of a lot of the activity, Senator Bayh, seems to be in Pakistan right now. Suspicion that a lot of the al Qaeda fighters, maybe Osama Bin Laden himself may have crossed into Pakistan.

One of our viewers from atlanta, John from Atlanta, Georgia e- mailed us this question: "Will we" -- meaning the United States -- "be allowed to send troops into Pakistan if Bin Laden is there?"

SENATOR EVAN BAYH, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Well, that's a good question, Wolf. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if some of our intelligence operatives weren't already on the ground.

Uniformed armed forces, of course, is a much more sensitive issue for the Pakistani government. But there are about 280 passes from the Tora Bora area into Pakistan. Only about 80 of them are accessible by vehicle. So on 200 of these paths, you've got to literally hoof it out or walk it you out.

And so it's going to be -- it's a very porous area. And we might have to address that issue with the Pakistanis. But this seem to be cooperating fully at this time.

BLITZER: It's a very delicate diplomatic operation. Senator Hagel, you know the area well. You are a member of the foreign relations committee. Can the government of President Pervez Musharraf in Pakistan withstand any kind of domestic criticism that might unfold if he goes too far in helping the United States find al Qaeda members?

SENATOR CHARLES HAGEL, FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: That's a consideration, Wolf, that we need to be mindful of, as I think we have been. I -- I think the way we have worked with President Musharraf has been exactly right. We have been able to give him the reach that he has needed. We have been able to do what has been required. He -- his government have been very cooperative.

It gets more complicated now. You're exactly right. The question that was asked of Senator Bayh, what if this now moves into Pakistan in a big way. That presents some new challenges. But that's OK. This is a complicated process and it's imperfect and it's imprecise.

And if we -- if we stay close with our allies, here, and work along these lines, we will be able to widen the net and we'll be able to pick it up. The last thing I's say -- and what Don Rumsfeld keeps reminding us -- the president and Colin Powell and others, this is a long-term effort. We shouldn't try to squeeze it all into a 30 or 60 day or a 100-day effort. This is going to take a while. And let's keep that in mind and let's be mindful of all those cul-de-sacs that we could get ourselves into.

BLITZER: General Scowcroft, Don from West Virginia e-mails this question to us. Maybe you can handle it. "Why isn't the United States destroying the caves in Afghanistan after they have been searched so they can no longer be used?"

SCOWCROFT: Well, I'm -- I've not been in the cave area, but I think some of them are very, very extensive. They go very far back in the mountains. I think they've closed the entrances to a number of them with bombing. But we need to find out what is in there first, and I presume that a lot of them will be closed off.

BLITZER: Presumably the U.S. Marines who are on way to the Tora Bora caves. They'll be able to find out what's going on, what evidence they might be able to pick up regarding or acttisms as well.

SCOWCROFT: And we still make this -- that's a dangerous kind of operation, going into the caves and rooting through whatever -- whoever --is still in there out.

BLITZER: I guess some of them may have been booby trapped.

SCOWCROFT: You never know. Absolutely.

BLITZER: Senator -- Senator Bayh, Julie from New Jersey has question: "If the United States really believed Osama Bin Laden and other senior al Qaeda leaders were in fact in Tora Bora, why didn't we send more of our armed forces in to fight in that battle?"

BAYH: Well, it was a progressive effort, Wolf. We didn't know where he was to begin with, and we gradually narrowed it down. And of course, more American forces would have meant more American casualties. As long as we had allies on the ground who were willing to carry that burden and we were willing to handle it from the air, I think that was appropriate balance.

Now that our allies locally seem to have pulled back to a lower level of enthusiasm, it's important that we do step forward to get the job done. By the way, I might add in response to both the last two questions, it's not completely out of the realm of possibility that he's still in that area where we're looking for him, or in fact that he might be dead at the bottom of one of these tunnels or caves. That's another reason to send our people in there now to make -- make sure that he's not still there.

BLITZER: A lot of people have a hard time understanding, Senator Hagel, why the United States government, with all the vast intelligence resources that it has, doesn't know where Osama Bin Laden is right now. The -- you know, it seems like a perplexing question, given the enormous amount of air power that was used over these past 100 -- well, actually, less than 100 days. 70 days or so.

HAGEL: A big country. Very rugged terrain. Some of the most rugged, unpredictable terrain in the world. A lot of caves. A lot of places to hide. Treacherous situations, not just geographically but with the people you're dealing with.

There are many other pieces that complicate the factor. Human intelligence. We have not had good human intelligence for a long time, especially in this area.

BLITZER: Well, let me pick up with General Scowcroft. Because there is a lot of suspicion, general, as you know -- as you know this area of south Asia, quite well -- that there were deals made between the U.S. -- the Eastern Alliance or the Northern Alliance in the south with forces allied with Hamid Karzai, who's going to be the new president and the Taliban supporters, maybe even al Qaeda. Sort of, you know, get out of dodge, while there's a temporary cease-fire. Do you think there is something to that suspicion?

SCOWCROFT: I don't think there is very much. First of all, you know, we have not been major ground forces. We have -- we have been air power and -- and targeting teams ground to -- to steer the bombs and so on and so forth. But it has been our allies of the Eastern, the Northern, Southern Alliance that have been doing the fighting.

Now, we don't have complete control over those people. And have there been deals, perhaps, with some of them to let some people go? We can't tell. But we don't have forces there to do the job. They have to do the basic job on the ground.

BLITZER: All right. Stand by. We're going to take a quick break. We have a lot more to talk about.

When we come back, did he betray his country? What should the government do with the Taliban American fighter, John Walker? We'll discuss that. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to THE WAR ROOM. The American John Walker fought with the Taliban. Should the Bush administration pursue charges of treason?

Senator Hagel, what do you think about this character John Walker?

HAGEL: Well, the more we see of him and in fact hear of him and listen to his own words, it becomes rather apparent that he didn't just fall off the turnip truck. He had some sense of what he was doing. He is going to have to account for his actions. He's responsible for those actions.

I don't know if we should try him for treason on television, but I have confidence in President Bush's decision here. He will be charged with very serious crimes and treason might be one of them.

BLITZER: General Scowcroft, do you have a precedent that you can relate to this particular individual?

SCOWCROFT: No, I really can't. I -- I think -- there are laws about serving in foreign armies and citizenship and -- and all that. I'm not --I'm not sure what they are, but it seems to me that while he's obviously a very troubled young man, it's important to make the point that actions have consequences, and you have to be responsible for your behavior.

BLITZER: He is 20 years old. That's about the same age as a lot of those Marines and those U.S. army force troops that are serving right now in Afghanistan.

But at the same time -- you're a member of the Intelligence Committee. He may have good information about al Qaeda, about Osama Bin Laden, about the Taliban that might be of use to the United States.

BAYH: Well, Wolf, that's correct, and he's being debriefed, first by intelligence officials, now by law enforcement officials. And I think your reporter got it right. He is being presented with a range of options that are going to affect his future, which I assume will give him a powerful incentive to tell us what he knows.

BLITZER: Based on what you know, is he cooperating right now with the U.S. military personnel and FBI agents, presumably, who are debriefing him?

BAYH: As far as I know he is cooperating. Now, he wasn't high enough up the command structure to know some of the most intimate details. But he did -- he does have a few operational facts that are of some value.

BLITZER: And that should play a role, don't you think, when all is said and done? How much cooperation he does provide.

SCOWCROFT: Oh, I think -- I think certainly, but it -- it can't erase what he did. It can help.

BLITZER: And what is your -- what is your button-up, your wrapup on John Walker? If you had to make a decision now, what do you do? Just wait and see?

HAGEL: Well, I think that's the appropriate thing to do. The president will make a decision, as he should, and we'll move forward. But he will be charged with very serious crimes, and he should be.

BLITZER: I want to just -- yeah, go ahead.

BAYH: A little bit about John Walker. He was intriguing to al Qaeda because they had an opportunity to recruit an American. How better to penetrate American society than to reintroduce one of their own into our country? And so his experience there might give us insight into how they hoped to recruit other Americans to do violence against ourselves.

BLITZER: And I want to pick up one other point about the potential of more terrorist threats. We just got this in a from spokesman for the homeland security director, Tom Ridge, saying they're continuing the alert status here in the United States for potential terrorist -- alert warning at least through January second. What does that suggest to you?

BAYH: There's a heightened risk at this time, Wolf. We continue to pick up some information about possible threats abroad, some at home of the generic kind. The school of thought is that they might have some incentive, now that they're clearly on the run, to prove they're still relevant, still viable, by trying to do something through one of these cells that still exist out there. So we need to maintain our vigilance through the holiday season.

BLITZER: Through Christmas and New Year's, once again. You remember during the millennium there was a heightened state of alert and there was an effort during...

SCOWCROFT: And there were. There were some attempts during that period, which we managed uncover.

BLITZER: But at the same time, Senator Hagel, when you do this, you issue these alerts, people get nervous. People get crazy. They're not going to go to malls. They don't want to go out. They don't want to go traveling. They -- they're scared. It's a delicate tightrope that the federal government, the homeland security director has to walk.

HAGEL: Well, of course it is. And that's where judgment is very important here. And there is not a blueprint here or a road map. We are making a lot of this up as we go along. And I -- I think they -- they feel in most cases it is probably better to err on the side of caution. But realizing, as you say, that you can call the wolf call so many times and then people just don't respond anymore.

But it's tough. On every one of these calls, it's difficult. But I think they're doing a good job. And I think America, as the president said, is just going to have to stay alert, realize that we're dealing with a new kind of threat.

BLITZER: Better to be safe than sorry. I think somebody said that once.

Senator Hagel, Senator Bayh, General Scowcroft, thanks so much for joining us.

SCOWCROFT: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: And a dramatic development in Argentina. Days of deadly rioting take a toll on the country's leadership. That and the other latest developments of the day when come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Here are some the latest developments we're following. Argentina' President, Fernando de la Rua, announced his resignation a short while ago. His move follows days of deadly rioting sparked by the worst economic crisis in Argentina's history.

And in Afghanistan an explosion in a marketplace injured 100 people in Mazar-e Sharif. One witness reported seeing a grenade before the blast. A local official blames terrorism, but no suspects have been named.

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice night at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com