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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Is America Any Safer Since September 11?; Who is Behind Anthrax Scare?
Aired December 21, 2001 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "America Strikes Back."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My main job, my main worry for America, is to prevent another attack.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: As the country heads into the holiday period, a national terror alert is extended into the new year. Is America any safer than it was on September 11th?
The president says Osama bin Laden may have "slithered" out. As U.S. troops search the caves of Tora Bora, U.S. aircraft strike a convoy said to be carrying al Qaeda leaders.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: It was a large convoy, and there were a lot of people killed, and a lot of vehicles damaged, or destroyed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: A new leadership will assume power just hours from now. We'll take a look at Afghanistan's future.
And as thousands consider taking a vaccine, who is behind the anthrax scare?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It had to be government source, and ultimately an insider.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. The terror alert stemming from September 11 is being extended into 2002. In a moment, why the government doesn't want you to let your guard down. But first, let's check the latest developments. Amid conflicting reports, the Pentagon insists the people killed today in a U.S. airstrike were leaders of the Taliban and al Qaeda. Several Afghan sources are quoted as saying that some 65 supporters of incoming president Hamid Karzai were killed in the strike, near Khost. The Afghans say the United States acted on faulty information from locals.
For the first time, the Pentagon confirms United States forces are searching abandoned caves for clues in the hunt for Osama bin Laden. More American troops are about to join the mission. Defense Secretary Rumsfeld says he'll send as many troops as necessary to comb the bombed-out hideaways in Tora Bora.
A spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition says some 7,000 enemy prisoners are being held in Afghanistan. Most are under the care of Afghan fighters, with U.S. specialists joining in the interrogations. Secretary Rumsfeld says senior leaders of the Taliban and al Qaeda are among those being detained.
British peacekeeping troops arrived today in Kabul for tomorrow's inauguration of Afghan's interim government. The British contingent is expected to keep as low a profile as possible. The United States announced today it will recognize the interim government, beginning tomorrow.
Now to President Bush's top priority, preventing another terror attack. The next week and a half has the administration on high alert.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): As the holidays approach, there is much to celebrate, and much to be concerned about. In Afghanistan, U.S. troops are in danger, facing a perilous new phase in the war on terror. Here at home, thousands must decide whether to take a potentially dangerous anthrax vaccine, or risk a severe illness from any spores still trapped in their lungs.
The government has extended the high alert until January 2, warning that the holidays could trigger attacks here at home, or overseas.
BUSH: Yes, the country is safer. Is it still totally safe? No. And that's why, as I told you, my main job, my main worry for America is to prevent another attack.
BLITZER: At the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said planned attacks have already been prevented.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There has been information that has been gathered in Afghanistan, that has directly resulted in the arrest of people, across the world, in other side of the globe. And undoubtedly, have prevented other terrorist activities.
BLITZER: But one U.S. Senator, who was briefed on the latest terror alert, told me a cornered al Qaeda could be specially dangerous.
SEN. EVAN BAYH (D), INDIANA: The school of thought is that they might have some incentive, now that they're clearly on the run, to prove that they're still relevant, still viable.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: So how real is this threat? Joining me now, the former U.S> ambassador at large for counterterrorism, Ambassador Paul Bremer. Thank you very much.
How real is this threat extending the high alert status through January 2?
PAUL BREMER, COUNTERTERRORISM EXPERT: I have to believe that we're in a pretty high threat environment now. Though I don't know what the intelligence is, you have to think about the fact that bin Laden and his colleagues are really on the run. And that's a dangerous time. If they've got any capabilities left in the United States, and we probably didn't round them all up after September 11, this is an ideal time for them to strike, in the holiday period.
BLITZER: But do they communicate with any of those so-called sleeper cells, that presumably would try to do something?
BREMER: They may not have to. You may have to have a certain degree of autonomy on the part of a lot of these cells, which had plans going on, which maybe were going to take another year to bring to fruition. And they might decide to trigger them themselves, because they decide it was a good time. I think it is hard now, for bin laden to communicate, I certainly hope so. But, he may not need to communicate to make something happen.
BLITZER: So people who are desperate, acts of desperation, that could still be potentially very dangerous to Americans.
BREMER: Possible, if these are major plots like the one we saw in September 11. But I don't know what it is. I think the president is right. We are safer today than we were on September 11, but we're never going to be a hundred percent safe. Terrorism is like crime. It's going to be with us for a long time. We just have to get used to that.
BLITZER: You used to do this kind of threat assessment when you were ambassador at large for counterterrorism. How do you balance alerting the public, getting people nervous, especially before Christmas, New Year's. You want people to travel and have a normal life, but at the same time, you want them to be vigilant.
BREMER: It's a very tough call, and I won't second-guess the government, because I don't know what the intelligence is. It's a tough call, because you really are talking about credibility. If you too often, say, put people on alert and nothing happens, you lose credibility for crying wolf.
If on the other hand, you have a bunch of intelligence and decide not to make an alert, and something happens, you have destroyed credibility. And so there is a sort of structural bias towards putting out alerts, rather than not putting out alerts. It's just a fact of life.
BLITZER: OK, Ambassador Bremer, thank you very much.
BREMER: OK.
BLITZER: And after a pause of several days, United States warplanes returned to the attack in Afghanistan, today, and with a vengeance. The question is, did someone make a mistake? The Pentagon says a number of enemy fighters were killed when U.S. warplanes attacked a convoy near a known terrorist camp. But local Afghans are saying those killed in the strike were supporters of the country's incoming president, Hamid Karzai, and they were headed to Kabul for tomorrow's inauguration.
Sixty-five people were killed, they say, because the United States received, in their words, "bad information" from local Afghan contacts. For more on this story, we turn to our national correspondent, Bob Franken. He's over at the Pentagon. Bob, can you clarify this at all for us?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we can try, from our distance. what everybody does agree is that the bombing run occurred near Khost, which is a city not far from Tora Bora, where there were intelligence reports for longest time of the terrorist training camp. The Pentagon is saying that Taliban leaders were killed. They were in a convoy when the bombs were dropped.
The people on the ground, according to the Islamic Press Agency, which, as you know, has close ties to the Taliban, says that in fact it was this group of elders on their way to the inauguration of a new government in Kabul. But the Pentagon says its version of events is the proper version.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS: ... that contained leadership. Those targets were attacked by AC-130 gunships and by fighter aircraft from the carriers. And the compound from which they left, the command and control compound from which they left, was also struck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: On briefing, where there was also a discussion by the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, and confirmation that U.S. troops have been participating in the sweep of all the caves around Tora Bora, and that more will come, and that this is very dangerous work.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMSFELD: The people that are going into these caves, obviously, understand what are they up against. They are going into areas that have been heavily bombed. The assumption is anyone in there is dead. And -- but if you make that assumption, you can get in an awful lot of trouble awful fast. So they're exercising a great deal of care.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FRANKEN: Now, they'll be getting some help from a brand new bomb. Testing just finished on the bomb on December 14 -- that's just two weeks ago, less than two weeks ago. Testing down in the Nevada desert. Now the bomb, 10 of them, they're called thermobarrack bombs, are being shipped to the region. They'll be dropped from F-15s.
What they do, is they burrow into the ground, these 2000-bomb bombs, and they, in effect, melt everything in sight, this intense heat. And that is going to be the latest way that the sweeping of caves will be done, in a war zone that is still very dangerous -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Bob, we heard the defense secretary say that information gathered from some prisoners, from others in Afghanistan, have already thwarted some terrorist attacks around the world. Anyone elaborating over there on what he was referring to?
FRANKEN: This has become an almost daily routine. We'll ask for more specific information, we'll say can you tell us more, Mr. Secretary. He'll say, "I can, but I won't."
BLITZER: Bob Franken at the Pentagon, thank you very much.
Meanwhile, in Pakistan, officials say two escaped al Qaeda prisoners were captured today, as they tried to reenter Afghanistan, dressed as women. The arrests leave but a handful of prisoners unaccounted for from those who were captured and then escaped, after fleeing the siege of Tora Bora. U.S. officials say Pakistan has managed to capture hundreds of fleeing fighters along the rocky stretch of border that runs from east to west, just south of Tora Bora.
A lot has been said of that particular stretch of border, the treacherous terrain and the difficulty of tracking the fleeing al Qaeda fighters. CNN's Kamal Hyder has more on it. He's at the border and he filed this firsthand account.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KAMAL HYDER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): You can see behind me the mountains, this mountain range, which connects to the Tora Bora mountain range. This is very jagged edged country. And where I'm sitting is what the tip of what you would call the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) region. It is a land jutting into Afghanistan, and with the mountains going around them. So we're sitting at the edge, literally on the Pakistan-Afghanistan boundary. And this is the area which is now being patrolled by forces of the Pakistan army and the paramilitary forces.
And it is very hard work here, because of the jagged country here, big falls. And some of these soldiers have had to be lifted by choppers and put on high positions, where it was difficult to have access. They are patrolling the narrow ravines, trying to block off as much territory as possible. And as one officer put it, he said, we are on a war footing.
We spoke to quite a few people here, who told us that it was their own army, and, therefore, it was their own country that was at stake. And they said that they would cooperate with the army. Morale here was very good. People were not particularly perturbed. They said Afghanistan has been at war for 23 years. We do not want to have war, and we don't want Afghanistan to have this continuing war.
They said we would not give them a safe haven here. There are some people who may have sympathies with these people, and that is because these people maybe portrayed as heroes. But overall, the perception here is that they may must cooperate with army, and they must try cooperate with the international community.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Kamal Hyder, reporting from Afghanistan. And when asked today about the hunt for Osama bin Laden, President Bush made it clear that he believes the objective will be achieved, no matter how long it takes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: I don't know where he is. I haven't heard much from him recently, which means he could be in a cave that doesn't have an opening to it anymore. Or it could be in a cave where he can get out, or may have tried to slither out into neighboring Pakistan. We don't know. But I will tell you this: we're going to find him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Those comments from President Bush, earlier today. In the Afghan capital of Kabul, the preparations are pretty much complete for tomorrow's inauguration of the country's interim president, Hamid Karzai. Our reporters in Kabul say security is tight, and they say the most visible law enforcement presence is being played by local officials. The first British peacekeepers arrived in Kabul. They're expected to lie fairly low tomorrow unless they're needed.
Joining us now to talk about the massive job of rebuilding Afghanistan, from the World Policy Institute, David Reiff. Among other things, he's an expert in humanitarian aid issues. He joins us from New York. Mr. Reiff, thank you very much for joining us.
How difficult of a mission does Hamid Karzai have as interim leader over the next six months?
DAVID REIFF, WORLD POLICY INSTITUTE: Well, I think if Mr. Karzai keeps war from breaking out again between the various victorious factions, he will already have accomplished a great deal. To do that in Afghanistan, with the Uzbeks led by General Dostum in the north, with Tajiks wanting a share of power, with lots of Taliban slipping into the government, all of this will be a fantastic accomplishment, just to keep the lid on.
BLITZER: Do you believe he can do it, given the various ethnic groups, the various warlords, that have traditionally fueled all sorts of tensions, within Afghanistan?
REIFF: Well, I'm very pessimistic. I must tell you the only way this can work is if you have a very, very soft government, that is, a relatively weak government, in Kabul. And give a lot of autonomy to the countryside. No Afghan government has ever succeeded in really imposing its will all over the country. That's a nonstarter, and if the U.N. or the U.S. or NATO expect anything of the sort, we and they are going to be sorely disappointed.
BLITZER: What about this peacekeeping presence? The British are coming in with representatives of other nations. Will that help them get the job done?
REIFF: I think, again, it's important to solidify control in Kabul. I think it's not out of the question that the presence of these British troops are quite, who are quite competent, would at least make sure that Kabul doesn't degenerate, as it did before the Taliban came. I mean, the one thing you have to remember is that the reason the Taliban were greeted by so many people in Afghanistan as saviors, as they were when they took power, was because all the guys were now coming back into power had made such a dog's breakfast of everything.
So, sure, the troops will help. But they are not mandated to go out into the countryside. They are not going to be allowed to do it. And I think we should have fairly low expectations for what they can do.
BLITZER: What should the U.S. posture be under these delicate conditions?
REIFF: There is, obviously, as you and your viewers know, there is a contradiction between a peacekeeping force, however mandated, and a war fighting force. And relations are going to be awfully delicate between the Americans who are still mopping up in the south, and this peacekeeping force.
I think the problem of coordination is going to be very severe, and I hope General Franks in Tampa is really thinking hard about this, because they're very different mandates. The British are there to help Karzai. They are there to keep a lid on General Dostum, the Uzbek warlord in the north, who's really the joker in this particular pact. And they're there to try to assure that a very real humanitarian emergency is averted this winter.
Those aren't the same things as going after bin Laden or al Qaeda, or anything of the sort. One bombing raid like the one today, assuming the worst, and perhaps the Defense Department is right and it was Taliban -- but say it was tribal elders. Imagine that happens three months from now. All hell will break loose. Those are the sort of contradictions that we're facing right now.
BLITZER: David Reiff, thank you very much for joining us. We appreciate it.
REIFF: Thank you, . BLITZER: And this note: Afghanistan's new leader, Hamid Karzai, will be among my guests Sunday, on "LATE EDITION." That's at noon eastern, 9:00 a.m. Pacific. And we'll have much more assessment of the war in Afghanistan at 7:00 p.m. Eastern tonight in the CNN WAR ROOM.
A health decision facing those exposed to anthrax: more Cipro or be vaccinated, or both? We'll talk about the options with a leading expert. And we'll also hear about safety concerns over at the post office, the postal workers union chief, and the deputy postmaster general, at the half hour.
But next, holiday travel: safety concerns at the airport.
And, compensations for the loss of Ground Zero, the lessons learned from Pan Am 103, 13 years ago today.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Millions of travelers are packing up heading out today, on the weekend ahead of the Christmas holiday. New York's La Guardia airport traditionally is one of the busiest this time of year. CNN's Michael Okwu is there, in the middle of the holiday rush.
Michael, what's going on?
MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, in the middle of the holiday rush and in the middle of the crowds, airport officials tell us that they expect a 23 percent drop in volume, compared to last year. But you would never expect that from looking at this line here at the American Airlines ticket counter.
All day we have been here, since about 7:00 this morning, and we can tell you that it alternatively is four people deep, five people deep, six people deep. It has been an incredibly long line, and a very arduous beginning for Christmas weekend for most of the people that we have been talking to.
I can tell you that there is a line outside that is equivalent to this one. And some of the people we spoke to tried to get reprieve from that line by joining this line, and were rudely and sadly awakened when they joined it.
You might not be able to see it, Wolf, nor our viewers, but around this corner, this line extends the equivalent of two or three city blocks! And the reason for this is quite simple. The volume at American Airlines is much higher than the volume at some of the other airlines, we are told. We are told that American Airlines officials plan to process more than 9,000 passengers today.
And, again, part of the reason for this is, just beyond here is the security check-in point. And at this security check-in point, they are taking a look at all of your luggage, including items that so many of the passengers believe that they could bring on. We are told by airline officials that so many people here are still confused about what they can bring. They say do not bring any scissors, do not bring sharp objects, and do not, believe it or not, bring any gifts that are wrapped, unless you want those gifts to be opened -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Michael Okwu at La Guardia airport in New York, thank you very much. And the issue of screening all baggage for explosives is the crusade of many people touched by the bombing of Pan Am flight 103. It was 13 years ago today that a bomb exploded aboard that flight, killing all 259 people aboard, and 11 people in Lockerbie, Scotland, where the plane went down.
The victims' families spent years waiting for compensation. Beginning today, families of the September 11 attacks, those victims can file for federal compensation, or choose to pursue their cases in court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNETH FEINBERG, SPECIAL MASTER, SEPT. 11 FUND: If you want to try and receive substantial pain and suffering, 2 million, 20 million, 10 million, you have to litigate. You have to be successful. You have to litigate for years -- five, six, eight years. Forty, 30 percent of that award goes to your lawyer. You have to survive appeals.
And most importantly, I think, for the victims and their families, when you litigate, you constantly, for a number of years, are reliving and reliving the horror of September 11.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Allan Gerson fought for compensation on behalf of the Lockerbie victims. He's the author of "The Price of Terror: Lessons of Lockerbie for a World on the Brink."
Mr. Gerson joins me here in Washington to talk about the legal options available to the September 11 victims. Allan, thanks so much for joining us.
You heard Kenneth Feinberg make the case -- accept the money on average of a million and a half dollars, per victim, for each of these family members, and don't try to string this out. What's your advice? You've gone through this with these family members from Pan Am 103.
ALLAN GERSON, AUTHOR, "PRICE OF TERROR": Well, Ken Feinberg is right, but only up to a point. Because the phrase that was missing in his analysis was "accountability." If you accept payment immediately, that helps you, it's necessary.
But it's at a price. And that price will be that you will never hold the perpetrators of murder. Because these families suffer not simply accidents. Their loved ones were murdered, and there will be no accountability without a lawsuit. That's one of the things that a lawsuit provides.
So, my advice to the families is, don't do anything at least for six months. Cater to your grief, and then afterwards, you will have to make the decision as to whether you want to pursue this very hard and arduous road of seek accountability, which is what the Pan Am 103 families sought, or whether you will take the easier route.
BLITZER: But some of those families probably need the money right away. Why would they want to wait six months? A million and a half dollars is obviously a lot of money.
GERSON: They should do what they feel is right. If the road for accountability is going to be a difficult and long one, the Pan Am 103 families began their lawsuit, which I initiated in district court against the government of Libya, back in '93. That trial is not going to commence until later this year.
BLITZER: They haven't received a penny yet.
GERSON: They haven't received a penny. As you see, in "The New York Times," "The Washington Post" today, the families of the World Trade Center bombing will be receiving $1.5. to $3 million. The families of Pan Am 103 have invested many of their life savings in order to pursue this new cause of action, that we were able to achieve for them, a civil cause of action. But it's against the perpetrator of the atrocity.
So, you have to weigh that on the balance. There is a certain satisfaction of knowing that you are going after the perpetrator.
BLITZER: But the perpetrator, presumably in this case, is Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. The United States government is obviously going after them right now. Isn't that some sense of satisfaction?
GERSON: Look, Wolf, there are limits to what can be achieved through military means. There are limits to what can be achieved through the criminal justice system. And one of the things that we try to -- the Pan Am 103 families try to point out, is that there is another arrow in our national quiver of dealing with terrorism, and that is the wrath of ordinary individuals who have been the victims, or the families of the victims, to go after the perpetrators and make them pay.
And in order to determine who the perpetrators are, that is going to require an investigation. This was, keep in mind, not just Osama bin Laden. This was state-sponsored terrorism, because the Taliban controlled a state, and that state was supported by a great many people. So we need to find out all the facts.
BLITZER: All right, Allan Gerson. He's the author of a new book, "The Price of Terror," book on Pan Am 103. Thanks so much for joining us.
GERSON: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: And the day's developments in "America's New War" are next, as well as the debate on anthrax. What should postal workers do? Is their workplace safe? The No. 2 man at the postal service and the union's leader go one-on-one, right after the break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
In just a moment: new suspicions in the anthrax probe. First, the latest in America's new war: Amid conflicting reports, the Pentagon insists the people killed today in a U.S. air strike were leaders of Taliban and al Qaeda. Some Afghan sources are quoted as saying some 65 supporters of incoming President Hamid Karzai were killed in the strike near Khost. The Afghans say the United States acted on faulty information from locals.
For the first time, the Pentagon confirms United States forces are searching abandoned caves for clues in hunt for Osama bin Laden. More American troops are about to join the mission. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld says he will send as many troops as necessary to comb the bombed-out hideaways in Tora Bora.
A spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition says some 7,000 enemy prisoners are being held in Afghanistan. That is the highest number reported so far. Most are under the care of Afghan fighters, with U.S. specialists joining interrogations.
British speedboats track down a tanker in the English Channel suspected of carrying terrorist material. So far, a search of the ship has turned up only its cargo of 26,000 tons of sugar. The MV Nisha's journey to Britain began in Djibouti, which neighbors Somalia and Yemen.
A key focus of the FBI's investigation into who sent anthrax- laced letters is narrowing down to how many people had the access and know-how to develop a weapons-grade version of the deadly bacteria.
CNN national correspondent Susan Candiotti has more.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Among the handful of research labs working with Ames strain is the Battelle Research Institute in Columbus, Ohio. It holds 4,000 Defense Department contracts and does classified work for the CIA, work that includes using powdered anthrax and developing vaccines to battle it, according to several sources.
Battelle insists there are no indications of security or safety breaches. The CIA insists its anthrax research is strictly defensive. Only recently, the Army disclosed it has been secretly producing a finely milled, highly virulent form of anthrax for years at its Dugway proving Ground in Utah. Dugway insists its anthrax is all accounted for. But a source tells CNN Dugway's controls may not be as secure as they could be. Some experts suggest the existence of Dugway's research could be an important clue.
RONALD ATLAS, AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR MICROBIOLOGY: It also, though, raises the possibility that someone who learned at Dugway how to produce it has taken that knowledge and either used it themselves or given that knowledge to someone else.
CANDIOTTI: Investigators are convinced the anthrax used in the attacks was produced in the U.S. One reason: The finally milled anthrax in the Leahy and Daschle letters genetically matches the strain used by the Army. But that doesn't tell investigators who sent it. The stock at the Army's bioresearch lab at Fort Detrick was shared with laboratories in England, Canada and five institutions in the U.S. And more scientists in the U.S. and overseas could have had access to the strain.
ELISA HARRIS, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL OFFICIAL: In other words, there may be a difference between the origins of the material itself and the perpetrators of the these particular incidents.
CANDIOTTI: Biological weapons researcher Barbara Rosenberg is convinced well under 50 people in the U.S. would have the know-how and access to create such deadly airborne spores. She shared her views with the FBI.
BARBARA ROSENBERG, FED. OF AMERICAN SCIENTISTS: It had to be a government source and ultimately an insider, someone fairly high up, who would have access to classified information or secret materials.
CANDIOTTI (on camera): Besides a purely terrorist motive, investigators are also looking at anyone who would stand to gain financially from sending deadly anthrax spores through the mail. The very wide list of possibilities under examination includes companies who make vaccines and those who specialize in cleaning up hazardous materials.
Susan Candiotti, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: The anthrax scare turned the routine task of sorting and delivering letters into a potentially deadly job. Just yesterday, federal health officials said a postal facility that handled some of the anthrax-laced letters was contaminated even more than first thought. That is causing concern about the safety of postal workers.
For more, we are joined now by John Nolan -- he is the deputy postmaster general -- and William Burrus. He is the president the American Postal Workers Union.
Let me begin with you, Mr. Burrus. How dangerous is it right now to be a postal employee?
WILLIAM BURRUS, PRESIDENT, AMERICAN POSTAL WORKERS UNION: We believe that postal employment today is as safe as it has ever been. We believe we have bypassed the point where there was major concern about the safety of employees.
But we think we have contained that. And we think now postal employment has returned to a level of safety that the employees can go about their employment without major concern. BLITZER: Well, Mr. Burrus, let me follow up and ask you this question. What if somebody out there sends another anthrax-laced letter and it goes through the Postal Service? Do you have precautions in place that will protect all your workers?
BURRUS: Not yet, but we never have. We have been in business for over 200 years and we didn't have those protections in place. But it didn't occur. If it were to occur some time in future, at this point, we would be as exposed as we have always been. But we don't believe that is going to occur. We are more vigilant today. We have some protections with masks and gloves.
We are permitting the employees to wash their hands more frequently. We are not using compressed air. So some things are in place to provide some protection. But our greatest protection is our trust in the mail matter that we handle, believing that there is no such additional letter.
BLITZER: Mr. Nolan, when is the Postal Service going to have all the precautions in place, sanitizing mail, for example, that will protect postal workers 100 percent?
JOHN NOLAN, DEPUTY POSTMASTER GENERAL: Well, you are talking about something that just recently happened. And we have been working very hard with scientists throughout the country to get irradiation equipment, to get detection equipment. That can't happen overnight. It's not -- we can't run down to the local store and buy it off the shelves. So we are working very hard to get that in place.
We have begun, as you know, irradiating mail. And we are very close to completing some testing on detection equipment that we'll be able to start deploying in the very near future. In the meantime, as Bill has said, we are being very vigilant and keeping eyes open. But the mail system today is safe.
BLITZER: Is it your sense, Mr. Nolan, that when the mail goes through all the various facilities right now, if there were, let's say, another anthrax-laced letter, someone someplace would spot that in time before there could be the kind of death that occurred the last time around?
NOLAN: Well, certainly, we're much more aware of the situation that occurred before and, as I said, much more vigilant. To the extent that it followed the pattern of last time, I think our chances of finding it are far greater. And, again, having found it, we know a whole series of actions that we would take to, as I have said before, put a rope around it very quickly to make sure that we contain any of the problem.
BLITZER: Mr. Burrus, are you confident in the Postal Service that they are doing everything possible to protect your workers?
BURRUS: Yes. And we have been working together very closely, trying to ensure the absolute safety of the employees and maintaining the confidence of the American public. But, yes, we are working very closely together. BLITZER: All right, Mr. Burrus, let me follow up on the whole issue of the anthrax vaccine. As you know, thousands of postal workers here in the Washington area, in particular, perhaps other places as well, who have been on the 60-day antibiotics, that is over with. They are now being told maybe you want to think about another 40 days of the Cipro or penicillin or some other antibiotic, and maybe even get that anthrax vaccine. Is that good advice to them?
BURRUS: Well, it is making the employees aware of the options that are available. What we know is that those employees were exposed. They were exposed to a risk. And they should be provided all of the options available known to the medical community to guarantee their safety. So I'm pleased that this information and these vaccines are made available to the employees for their choice, their decision as to whether or not they are going to take them.
BLITZER: Mr. Nolan, how frustrated are you, though, that the advice is not categorical? It is sort of: If you want to do it, this may be something you want to consider. But it is up to you to take that kind of advice -- that that is the advice you are getting from the public health authorities?
NOLAN: Well, that is right, because that is the best information they have. Tests that they have conducted have not shown conclusive improvement in health, necessarily. But there are some indications that it can help. And so what they have been is very honest with us as to exactly where they are in their knowledge and what they are recommending, why they are recommending it.
And I'm sure they would like to be able to provide more specific information, but they are doing the best they can with the information they have. And they are sharing it openly with us.
BLITZER: Mr. Nolan, you know you have a lot of nervous postal workers out there who are not sure what to do right now.
NOLAN: Well, I think that what the CDC is doing with us is to make sure that they hear specifically from their representatives exactly what the facts are. And then they can make their decisions based on that. And I think that the principle thing on the mind of our employees at the moment is delivering all those packages we are getting on time for Christmas.
BLITZER: OK, Mr. Nolan, Mr. Burrus, thanks to both of you for joining us. Thanks. Of course, and merry Christmas, happy New Year as well.
BURRUS: Same to you.
NOLAN: Same to you.
BLITZER: Government doctors have given the first batch of the anthrax vaccine to dozens of Capitol Hill workers. Officials were concerned people exposed to the bacterium could relapse once they stopped taking their supply of antibiotics. But not everyone is convinced the vaccine is a safe or even necessary step. And joining us now is someone who knows a lot about this vaccine, Dr. Anthony Fauci. He is the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.
Thank you very much, Dr. Fauci, for joining us.
DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT: You're welcome.
BLITZER: How safe is this vaccine?
FAUCI: Well, it is generally a safe vaccine. Obviously, there has been controversy surrounding it about the real or perceived question of whether or not there are very serious and a high level of toxicities. But if you look at the data that has been collected from it, the FDA has shown that data openly. It is contained in the consent form that you were talking about with regard to the vaccine being administered to individuals here and elsewhere regarding the bioterrorist attack.
And the toxicities are essentially toxicities of other vaccines. About 1 percent of people get a systemic reaction. About 3 or 4 percent of the individuals get significant swelling or pain or discomfort in the side of injection.
BLITZER: Congressman Chris Shays, who has studied this issue a lot, was on this program a couple days ago. He said he is not convinced the current batch has been fully tested from the Lansing plant that manufactures this vaccine;. He would recommend waiting until mid-January or so before there is further tests before receiving the current batch. He says maybe get some of the British vaccine instead.
FAUCI: Well, I think, logistically, that would very difficult to do.
The FDA feels confident that the batch that we're talking about -- a batch called 063, which is a batch of about 10,000 doses that are now available to the Department of Health and Human Services -- in fact will meet the specifications. It hasn't been fully approved yet for licensure, but they feel confident that it will be once they do the final inspection of the plant in which it was made.
BLITZER: Let's talk a little bit about the protocol that you are recommending public health authorities -- and we will put it up on the screen -- what you are recommending is three shots received over how long a period?
FAUCI: It's not recommended, now.
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: What you are saying, if possibly...
FAUCI: Yes. If someone makes the choice of taking the vaccine, it is three shots over a four-week period.
BLITZER: Forty additional days of the antibiotics.
FAUCI: Of the antibiotics.
BLITZER: Assuming that they having already taken the 60 days.
FAUCI: The 60 days, correct.
BLITZER: For a total of 100 days of Cipro or penicillin.
FAUCI: Right, or whatever their drug is.
BLITZER: They have to sign a medical waiver. Tell us about that.
FAUCI: Right. Well, the reason that there has to be informed consent, because there is no solid scientific data that this works to begin with. It is a theoretical -- theoretical considerations that this might work. There is no scientific data, No. 1. No. 2, the vaccine is being used in a manner for which it has not been approved by the FDA. It is used post-exposure as to prevent before you get exposed.
So with those two things, then you are talking about it's being used as an investigational drug. Once it gets used as investigational drug, you need the full, informed consent of the individual. That is a pure ethical consideration. You have to have informed consent. They need to understand what's going on, because there is no definitive data that say it is going to work. That is very clear. That is standard procedure. That is not something that was just thought up for this particular protocol.
BLITZER: And then there's two years of follow-up, meaning what?
FAUCI: Right, exactly.
Well, to make sure that there are no late adverse events, to make sure that their health is OK after a period of time.
BLITZER: If you were, God forbid, one who of those had potentially inhaled that form of anthrax, would you be confident in that vaccine, because, as you know, some have suggested all these people who are going to be taking it really are almost guinea pigs right now?
FAUCI: Well, actually, I wouldn't say that they are guinea pigs, because, remember, there is a choice. They don't have to take it. And I think that is the thing that I have heard many times in the media that people are feeling that they are being used as guinea pigs. This is a full, open choice. If they don't want to take the vaccine, they don't take the vaccine.
So they are not really in the situation where they are being coerced into something. And that's the reason why, getting back to what was just said, that there is not a recommendation. There is an availability and information for an individual to make their choice.
BLITZER: You are doing the best you can under an evolving science.
FAUCI: We're trying.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Dr. Fauci. And merry Christmas and happy New Year to you as well.
And more fallout between two nuclear neighbors when we return: how the tensions between India and Pakistan may complicate the war on terror.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Taking a look now at some stories from around the world: The Palestinian militant group Hamas has called an end to suicide bombings and mortar attacks in Israel. The announcement did little to ease tensions. A short time later, at least five people were killed in a gun battle in Gaza, further threatening any chance of a cease-fire.
Argentina today appointed its senate leader to temporarily replace its outgoing president. President Fernando de la Rua stepped down yesterday amid a deepening economic crisis that sparked two days of rioting and looting. The streets were largely calm today, aside from a few protests and some looting.
India is says it is recalling its envoy to Pakistan for what it calls Islamabad's failure to act against terrorism. India says Pakistan has refused to arrest the men believed to be behind last week's bloody attack at the Indian Parliament. Pakistan denies it supports terrorism.
The move, though, does further strain already troubled relations between the two nuclear rivals. Yesterday, we heard arguments from the Indian side of the conflict. Today, we are speaking with Nayyar Zaidi. He is the chief correspondent for Pakistan's largest daily newspaper.
Thank you so much for joining us, Nayyar.
The whole tension, how serious, given a historic perspective, is it right now, given the fact that they have been at odds for a long time? But both countries are now acknowledged nuclear powers.
NAYYAR ZAIDI, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "DAILY JANG": I think the tensions are very serious. India has officially announced that it is considering war as an option, which is an intent to commit aggression.
But the good thing is that, although they have recalled their high commissioner from Pakistan, Pakistan has decided to retain its ambassador in New Delhi. So Pakistan is trying to defuse tensions as much as it can.
BLITZER: Is it within -- you have vast experience in this area -- realistic to assume that, if tensions get out of control, these countries might even use a nuclear weapon?
ZAIDI: I think the issue of use of nuclear weapons is very premature. The nuclear weapons are usually a deterrent and are used in a war by a country which is losing on the conventional front or finds it not feasible to win through conventional means.
So, first there will have to be a war. And, in that, we'll see who is losing the conventional war and then uses nuclear weapons. So I think it is a premature issue. I hope that both sides are mature enough not to use nuclear weapons.
BLITZER: A lot of Americans have not been paying much attention over the years to the Kashmir issue, the tensions between India and Pakistan over this disputed territory. But they are concerned now because, potentially, it could affect the U.S. war on terrorism, specifically Pakistan, which has been a vital contributor in helping the United States against al Qaeda and the Taliban.
ZAIDI: And not only Taliban. As you know, over a period of time, Pakistan was the chief ally against communism. Pakistan was the chief ally during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. What Indians are trying to do now is to sabotage the close U.S.-Pakistan relationship. They are just doing a tantrum here.
BLITZER: But you know what the Indian government says, that the Pakistani government, the intelligence service, the military, is actively supporting terrorists, Islamic terrorists in Kashmir, to try to remove the Indians from that disputed territory.
ZAIDI: Well, fine. They are making that allegation. My question is -- let me give you an example. They are also accusing an organization, which is Jaish-e-Mohammed, which the U.S. has not included in the list.
But the leader of Jaish-e-Mohammed was, for two years, in Indian custody in India. Why didn't they try him, execute him? You know, he was taken in a hostage crisis in an exchange. But Indians, during the last 20 years, have caught so many people, accused them of being Pakistani agents, and have never put them to trial.
BLITZER: Is there is way for the United States perhaps to ease these tensions right now between India and Pakistan?
ZAIDI: Well, it is very hard, when -- let me tell you, there is a domestic agenda, because there are going to be elections in (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And what the Indian leadership is doing is trying to mobilize the radical Hindu vote by coming out. Pakistan is the favorite whipping boy.
I think what the U.S. should do now -- they cannot ease the tensions -- but what the U.S. should do now is ask India to hand over Mr. Mohammed Al-Zhewi (ph), the sole survivor of this attack, who went on Indian television to accuse Pakistan. He should be brought here and put to a military tribunal and tried as an international terrorist.
BLITZER: Nayyar Zaidi, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.
When we come back: New York firefighters bring aid to Afghanistan and a reminder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And inside here, you will see, is a piece of the airplane that hit the World Trade Center.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: From ground zero to another location: the reason for this journey -- next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's go to New York and get a quick preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE," which begins right at the top of the hour -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Wolf, thank you.
U.S. warplanes bombing a convoy that the Pentagon says was carrying al Qaeda leaders -- we'll have a live report for from you Afghanistan. And here to discuss the latest in this war against terrorism , I'll be joined by former CIA Director James Woolsey -- Richard Butler from the Council on Foreign Relations to discuss chemical and biological weapons being held by the Iraqis -- Richard Perle of the American Enterprise Institute.
We'll be bringing you the latest on Argentina's economic and political crisis -- a live report from Buenos Aires -- all of that, a lot more at the top of the hour. Please join us.
Now back to Wolf Blitzer in Washington -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou.
And let's get a quick check of some of today's "Newswire."
An autopsy is scheduled today on a body police say could be that of Don Wiley. He is a missing Harvard biochemist. The remains were found yesterday in the Mississippi River, along with Wiley's identification papers. Wiley, who had researched Ebola and other deadly viruses, was last seen in Memphis more than a month ago.
A fire truck slammed into a Greyhound bus in Ontario near the U.S. border today, injuring about 35 people, including four firefighters. The fire truck was responding to an emergency when it apparently sped through an intersection. The bus was heading from Toronto to New York.
And this sad note: Sports broadcaster Dick Schaap died today in New York, from complications following hip replacement surgery. Schaap won Emmy awards for his work on ESPN and other -- for features on ABC's "20/20" and "World News Tonight." He was also the author of more than 30 books -- Dick Schaap, a great sportscaster, dead at age 67.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: A group of New York City firefighters and police officers who took part in rescue efforts on September 11 visited Afghanistan today, delivering food and supplies to an orphanage near Kabul. They also met with U.S. special forces. And pieces from the World Trade Center site to bury in Afghanistan were brought over.
I'll be back in one hour with more coverage here in the CNN "War Room." Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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