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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Can Al Qaeda Recover and Fight Again?
Aired January 02, 2002 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN KING, ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM: smashed and scattered, can al Qaeda recover and fight again?
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are some of these small groups are still within Afghanistan and may in fact be trying to get back together.
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KING: U.S. Marines conduct an intelligence sweep, while special ops forces search for the al Qaeda and Taliban leaders.
Is there still a threat? What are the risks? We'll go live to Afghanistan and the Pentagon. and I'll speak live with Senator Chuck Hagel, an infantry squad leader in Vietnam; CNN security analyst Kelly McCann, an antiterror specialist and former Marine officer; and CNN military analyst, retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd, as we go into the war room.
Good evening. I'm John King reporting tonight from Washington. Wolf Blitzer is off. We'll get to our guests, and the latest war news, shortly.
But first, we have new developments in the story about a Muslim member of President Bush's security detail who was removed last week from an American Airlines flight. CNN's Jeanne Meserve joins me now with the update. Jeanne.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, there is more than one version of what happened on that American Airlines flight. This evening new details on several renditions of events.
Sources have provided with me with a copy of the offical report written by the captain of the flight, who ultimately made the decision to remove the agent from the aircraft.
This document does not explain why the agent was taken off the flight in the first place. But after the agent was removed, quoting the captain here: "flight attendant brought to my attention that she and other flight attendants were concerned about the actions of one of the passengers. This passenger left the aircraft with carry-on bag still in his seat. He told the flight attendant, 'please don't leave without him.' While the passenger was away, a flight attendant observed books in the individual's seat which were written in what she assessed was Arabic-style print."
At this point, the captain writes, the flight crew realized this was an armed passenger and pilot reviewed the paperwork had filed to carry his weapon on the flight. The captain says it was unreadable and there were missing items. The captain gave him a new form. That, too, was filled out improperly, and the agent is described as being nervous and anxious.
The captain also goes on that the agent became abusive towards him, and that he felt that because of the events of september 11th and also the case of Richard Reid, who had traveled on an American Airlines flight allegedly with explosives in his shoe, he had to be 100 percent sure of this individual's credentials. And he was not.
The pilot then goes on in this report to say that he is going to file a misconduct report with the Secret Service. Now, the American Airlines Systems Operation Center in Fort Worth was brought into this discussion over the agent's credentials, his paperwork, and also his behavior.
They denied him access to future American Airlines flights. According to a report from the manager of that SOC, he had a later phone conversation with this Secret Service agent in which the agent admitted to not properly filling out the paperwork for carrying a weapon, not once but twice.
He also admitted losing his temper with the captain because he had been asked for his ID five separate times, and when asked why he was denied future boarding and it was explained that he had been abusive, he said he would take this to the highest authority.
The manager writes that only in a later conversation an with official of the Secret Service was he made aware that the agent was even of Middle Eastern descent. Now, President Bush has commented on this matter, last week when he was at his ranch in Crawford.
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GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If he was treated that way because of his ethnicity, that's -- that will make me madder than heck.
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MESERVE: Meanwhile, in another front on this story, the agent has now retained a lawyer and is considering bringing suit against the airline. And the Council on American-Islamic Relations -- the group that initially brought this story to light -- today said that the seatmate of the agent has now come forward to support the agent's version of the story, saying the agent was indeed a victim of racial profiling. John?
KING: CNN's Jeanne Meserve exclusive details tonight on a developing story. Now to the hunt for the elusive Taliban leader Mullah Mohamad Omar. U.S. special forces may be stepping up efforts to track him down. CNN's Bill Hemmer joins us live from the Kandahar air base with more. Bill?
BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, good evening and good morning from Kandahar here. The situation the Marines describe here is just completing their 12th sojourn into southern Afghanistan, and this mission, John, by far and away the largest to date.
Well over 200 Marines participated in this operation. It went into Helmand Province looking for more intelligence on -- believe it or not, it was an al Qaeda target, not a Taliban target as the Marines describe it here.
When they came back here to the base we saw them early in the morning here at the Kandahar airport, basically around 4:30 a.m. local time here, 24 hours ago.
And the Marines described that mission as going well, but rather uneventful, they say. They encountered no hostile environment and no combat was achieved.
In addition to that, they ran into several women and children inside this sprawling complex, better than 14 buildings that had to be searched. And they did this mission in cooperation with local anti- Taliban fighters. The Marines say they were the ones who were, quote unquote, "knocking on the door."
In essence, the Marines say they came back with intelligence that came from computer disks, and right now they will sort and sift through that intelligence looking for more information on the al Qaeda network, not only in Afghanistan but possibly around the world as well. Major Chris Hughes of the U.S. Marines described what they found to us earlier yesterday.
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MAJOR CHRIS HUGHES, U.S. MARINES: Normally we find computer-type diskettes. That's the norm these days. That information will be analyzed, worked through. It's a -- it's a slow, methodical-type process. In many ways it's like putting together pieces of a puzzle.
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HEMMER: And again, the mission is the 12th for the U.S. Marines here in southern Afghanistan. They say more plans could come together, but nothing positive and firm right now. But again, by far and away the largest land mission for the U.S. Marines here in southern Afghanistan.
On another item now, the detainees. We're now at 200 even. 200 detainees here in Kandahar after 11 were more brought in the latest shipment. We're told six of those 11 came by way of stretcher, apparently still suffering from combat wounds suffered in northern Afghanistan. And every day we report here in Kandahar, we continue to find out more about these detainees. We now know some of them attended school and university in the U.S. And one at least -- one at least was born in the U.S. Described to be in his 20s. Born in the state of Louisiana. However, he left at early age, possibly for Saudi Arabia.
We are told he is not another case of John walker, the American now held on the USS Bataan ship out in the Arabian Sea.
On another front, in eastern Afghanistan near the town of Khost, we're told the long-time feared Taliban intelligence leader apparently has been killed by U.S. bombings. Sources indicate he was killed several days ago, that a positive identification was made after his body was found.
The man's name: Qari Ahmadullah. Many people here in Afghanistan say he was the one who carried out lot of fear throughout the country.
Finally, the Marines are applauding themselves tonight after a successful recovery mission. Late Saturday afternoon, a hard landing was suffered by a CH-53, a Super Stallion helicopter. Apparently it had a hard landing somewhere in Helmand Province after the nose gear touched down too early. That crew was brought back this past weekend. They are safe and OK.
And yesterday, the Marines went out with a few engineers, conducted their own operation in the field, and got thir helicopter working and flying once again. It is back here now at the base. And the Marines say, again, that is a successful recovery operation. John.
KING: Bill Hemmer in Kandahar, keeping track of the many developments there. Thank you, Bill.
And this programming note: Bill will have more at the top of the hour in his special report "LIVE FROM AfghanISTAN".
As U.S. forces step up the hunt, let's go live now to the Pentagon, and CNN National Correspondent Bob Franken. Bob?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You know, John, what's interesting is the more that the -- the great brunt of the war seems to be over, the more that we see U.S. ground troops in action in Afghanistan: in actions that are acknowledged by the United States, albeit sometimes reluctantly.
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FRANKEN: Now that the U.S. military has acknowledged the Marines had returned from an operation northwest of Kandahar that they first denied, the Pentagon spokesman was now willing to give some sketchy details and discuss the initial reports it was a search for Taliban supreme leader Mullah Omar.
REAR ADMIRAL JOHN STUFFLEBEEM, PENTAGON SPOKESMAN: They were not on a hunt per se for Omar. They were out doing survey evaluations. So they are looking at locations and facilities where we had good evidence that there had been previously al Qaeda and Taliban forces and they're collecting physical evidence.
FRANKEN: Meaning intelligence, equipment, whatever might help as the war goes on. As for Omar, he's still at large, amid reports that anti-Taliban forces are negotiating for the surrender of a substantial Taliban force. The United States is clear on what should happen if Omar is one of them.
VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: From what we have seen from reports from the interim government, from anti-Taliban forces, they understand and have said, "we understand that if we come under control of Omar, he will be turned over to the United States."
FRANKEN: Omar is just one of the fugitives. Pentagon officials say the entire search is complicated by Pakistan's decision to pull several thousand troops on the Afghanistan border and send them to the Kashmir border to confront India. It just heightens the danger from the al Qaeda troops still at large.
STUFFLEBEEM: What we really do believe has occurred is that they have disbanded into smaller groups. It would be, I think, obvious that some have probably gone over the mountain into Pakistan, but we also believe that there are some of these small groups are still within Afghanistan and may, in fact, be trying to get back together.
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FRANKEN: And as for the 200-plus who are being held by United States, Pentagon sources say there is a big push now to transfer some of them to the detention facilities at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. Guantanamo Bay, in Cuba. Big push, says the United States, perhaps as early as this weekend. John.
KING: And Bob, any defensiveness at all to the question of why was there not more forthcoming information about that military operation from those Marines that the Pentagon initially denied was taking place?
FRANKEN: Actually, quite a bit of defensiveness. There's -- there is discussion from Pentagon officials that there's so much going on that it's sometimes hard to keep what questions are being asked and what answers are being sought. A lot of confusion because there are so many operations. But there is quite a bit of anger among members of press who believe that they were misled by Pentagon and military officials .
KING: CNN National Correspondent Bob Franken live for us tonight at the Pentagon.
Can Taliban and al Qaeda fighters regroup and pose a new threat to U.S. forces searching for their leaders? Joining me now in the war room, Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of the foreign relations committee and the State of Nebraska. He served two tours -- and earned two Purple Hearts -- as an infantry squad leader in Vietnam. CNN Military Analyst, retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd. He flew almost 250 fighter combat missions in Vietnam. And CNN security analyst Kelly McCann, CEO of Crucible Security. He's a former Marine officer who's taught antiterror techniques to the military.
Remember, you can e-mail your war room questions to CNN.com/wolf. Let's begin the discussion with the search -- unsuccessful so far -- and as we do, gentlemen, let's look at map of the areas that we have in question here. We have a topographical map.
Marines have operations here, looking are for Mr. Mullah Omar. Up here was the search, up in this area of Tora Bora, for Osama Bin Laden. Right now, though, that is answer, question mark, to either gentleman? General, let's start with you. Why no answer so far?
GENERAL DONALD SHEPPERD, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): Big place. The size of Texas. Lots of places to hide, even in Helmand Province. If you look at the territory up there, John. It's a -- it's mountain passes. It's very, very rugged terrain. Deep valleys, lot of roads, hundreds if not thousands of tunnels. And so he can get away.
And they also, both of them, may be in another country right now. We simply don't know where he is, despite all of our sensors and we are looking all the time. We still, as of this minute, do not know exactly where he is.
KING: Afghan officials in the new government say they do know. They believe they know where Omar is, the spiritual leader of the Taliban. Today in the "the New York Times" Hajji Gullalai -- he's the Afghan regional intelligence director -- he says, quote, "We know where Mullah Mohamad Omar is... We have some demands and the Taliban have some objectives. They have some demands, and we have some objections. But I'm confident the negotiations will be successful."
Senator Chuck Hagel, when President Bush went before the Congress, he said the United States would not negotie with terrorists. We are allied with the new government that is factions within Afghanistan. Why would the United States support them negotiating with terrorists?
SEN. CHARLES HAGEL (R-NE), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: Well, I think we have to remember one thing here that's always present and a constant in exercises like this. The issues are complicated. The issues are cloudy. We don't know all the facts. And most of the facts we do have don't connect up. And we're normally a few days behind what the facts are.
So I'm not willing to -- to accept the premise that we have acquiesced to any negotiation with terrorists.
KING: Well, Kelly McCann, jump in here. Think if you were one of those special forces assigned to these local Afghan militias that are negotiating, your life is at risk. You're waiting for these negotiations to take hold, if that's what's happening, understanding there is fog in such situations. Wouldn't you be thinking that while these people are talking back and forth, perhaps Omar is getting away again?
KELLY MCCANN, CEO, CRUCIBLE SECURITY: Well, sure. But there's one thing that we have to be really clear on, and that is they are now going to start to have their own agenda that's different from ours.
I mean, we had very similar, parallel objectives at start of this war. Now with that government in power and the Northern Alliance trying to flex their muscles, everyone has got their own agenda. So I think that our government is probably very carefully weighing the credibility of some of these sightings and also looking at hidden objectives, hidden motives, because this was known going into this.
And Haron Amin, by his own admission, has said there has always been an agenda in Afghanistan. So (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
KING: Another question from a viewer. Rob Aanschot in the Netherlands writes, "Could Osama Bin Laden and Mullah Omar have fled to Iran?"
As we go to answer the question, let's take a look at again a map, a wrap of the region. And you can see here as you look, we have heard already heard that right up here, inside Pakistan, largely ungovernable, in the control of local tribes. We know for years there has been a drug trade across this border.
The government of Iran says no way. It's not letting Taliban or al Qaeda people across the border. But Chuck Hagel, is it possible? Could they be up here?
HAGEL: Well, I wouldn't say that all things are possible in a situation like this, but I think it's very doubtful, for a number of reasons.
First, I don't think the Iranians want any part of being perceived to harbor or in any way having anything to do with -- this -- this effort not coming to successful conclusion, and they've stated that publicly and privately.
If in fact Bin Laden or any of others would find themselves up in that region, that would be a remarkable feat to cover that much territory, to go undetected and having all this intelligence network out there -- albeit not all ours -- but without anybody having any -- any sense of where he is, or at least now up in that area, I think, is rather remote.
KING: Well, General Shepperd, from what you see, a scaling back but still some searching in the Tora Bora area, obviously looking here in the bagram area for Omar. From what you see publicly and what you may know from friends still in the military, what is your guess -- best guess of where they think Bin Laden is?
SHEPPERD: I think that they think Osama Bin Laden is not in the Tora Bora area. I don't think that we know if he's in a new area, in Helmand Province up there. But wherever he goes, he's leaving a trail, and we're eventually going to find him. And the important thing about this -- in this whole area -- we're talking about. He's certainly not in Iran with the acquiescence of the Iranian government. He could be there with the acquiescence of bandits. This is an area of bandits and smugglers since Marco Polo days. So money talks in this area, particularly, and it talks all over the world.
They could be anywhere, but signs are that Omar is probably still in Helmand Province and Bin Laden, we simply don't know.
MCCANN: John, to do business they're going to have to create a signature of some kind. It's one thing for him to be alone and just have all these kind of wild thoughts. It's another thing to have to communicate to a decentralized army to do some kind of guerilla tactics or techniques. So we are listening. We do own the battle space. And if he creates that signature -- either him or Omar -- to do business, we will have a much better response than I think he understands.
KING: Now, let me ask you this question, and I'll start with you, Kelly. A dispute today about whether the Pentagon was forthcoming about an ongoing operation. Marines left Kandahar. They went out to do a search mission of a compound. The Pentagon said it wasn't happening. Now that they're back safely, the Pentagon says it's happening.
Juggle, if you will, perhaps your role in your past in such an operation, with our society and the idea that we have a free press and we want our government to be open and honest?
MCCANN: There is a free press and -- and post reporting is very important during a wartime situation. Not prereporting and not necessarioy even concurrent reporting.
My understanding was that there were two reporters who saw the helicopters lifting off, that actually aired the first notice of this whole thing. Based on time and distance and the instantaneous of satellite communications, etcetera, it's feasible that that kind of information out on the, you know, the airwaves, could have alerted people to leave the area.
So I'm always going to err on the side of good security and not getting troops hurt. So I think that that has to be understandable. Post reporting, no problem. Talk about it.
KING: Senator Hagel, obviously this is one remaining legacy of Vietnam. Some mistrust, if you will, between the press and the Pentagon. Should the Pentagon give misinformation or should they simply say, "not going to answer your question?"
HAGEL: The Pentagon should never give misinformation. Obviously, as Kelly said, the real responsibility here is to accomplish mission with minimal risk to the troops and marginalize the casualty prospects. But -- but never mislead or intentionally throw the press off. You have to say sometimes, "I can't tell you that." And that's just the way it is. And the safety of those troops is paramount in something like this.
SHEPPERD: You never -- you never intentionally mislead the press. You never intentionally lie to the press. It leads in the wrong direction. Now, you can refuse to answer a question or you can answer a -- give another answer to the question asked, if you want.
But on the other hand, this was obviously a screwup. Somebody asked a question, somebody who didn't know answered the question and all of sudden there was this perception that somebody lied or misled. I can almost assure you that nobody in uniform or high level intentionally did this.
KING: All right. gentlemen. Stand by. When we come back, as they search for the Taliban and al Qaeda leaders, are U.S. forces facing new dangers in Afghanistan?
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CLARKE: One of our primary objectives is to get the al Qaeda and the Taliban leadership and we will use whatever resources in a very forward-leaning manner, whatever resources it takes to get them, including special operation forces.
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KING: Welcome back to the war room. The Pentagon is ready to step up the hunt. But will that more casualties for U.S. forces? We're joined here by Senator Chuck Hagel, Kelly McCann, major General Don Shepperd.
Gentlemen, let's continue the conversation. As we do so, let's follow up on what we just heard Victoria Clarke say at the Pentagon and this question from Stan in Pittsburgh. "Can our war effort truly be successful without U.S. casualties?"
General, I want to start with you. Some would say that one of the reasons Bin Laden and Omar are still free is that the U.S. military has been too risk averse, asking the Northern Alliance to go into caves, asking now in southern Afghanistan for negotiations back and forth.
SHEPPERD: They're wrong. We're not casualty averse. But we measure casualties and risk carefully. I don't want commanders out there taking my kid and throwing him into a cave just because he thinks somebody might be in there.
You need to measure what you're going after and you need to measure the risk and then go do it when you've got a good plan. And if the plan goes wrong, have somebody to go rescue him. But we're not casualty averse and we'll take casualties. I hope we take none, but the longer we're there, the more people we bring in, the more likely we are to have casualties.
KING: Do you get a sense, sir -- Senator -- you're in charge of representing your state in the United States Congress. You're about to make a trip to the region. Is it your sense now as we begin a new year and we're a little more than two months into the military campaign, are the American people supportive in general and are they ready, if the business gets ugly, for more casualties?
HAGEL: The American people are -- are strongly supportive of the effort that we are undertaking and have been undertaking and will continue to undertake. I don't think there's any question about that. That's been measured by every poll and every sense I get, and I think all elected representatives. But what the general said about casualties -- the second part of your question -- is right.
I think the American people are realistic and understand that in fact in order to do this job, we do have to risk those casualties. But the other part of this is why I think it's been so successful, with -- with such a minimum casualty count, has been that we have been smart. We have harnessed the resources there. We've harnessed the resources on the ground, our allies, and we've supplemented those with American troops.
And the longer we're there, as the general said, obviously the casualty possibilities mount. But the American public, they understand this effort. They understand the long-term commitment that it's going to require.
KING: Kelly, you raised point a moment ago about a signature, that if they're still hiding in caves -- or wherever they're hiding -- they might communicate out. They might need food or supplies brought in, and intelligence can track that back and forth.
With that in mind, answer this question from Brian in Columbus, Ohio: "How many caves are we really talking about searching? Are we searching just the main tunnels or are we going down every branch of the caves?"
Should we be searching the caves or should we just be watching for traffic back and forth?
MCCANN: We are doing both of that, and -- and caves would be evaluated for target value. I mean, if it's just a hole in the rock that could only, you know, house a small team of people who are the run, that's one thing.
But if it's a larger structure that could house a fighting force that could put combat power in the battlefield, that's a whole different things. So they're doing a target list and they're evaluating it.
But also to echo what the senator said, this -- the American people should steel themselves, based on the confirmation from al- Zawahiri's released notes in the UK where he said the fragmentary battle plan was to let al Qaeda leadership slip out of the country so they could continue to fight another day. So that goes directly to the endurance of the American people in saying, "we're in this for the long haul. It's not going to stop at the end of Afghanistan." You've got to get their arms around that.
KING: Well, then let's close our discussion tonight with that, the long haul, the political will of the American people, the Congress.
Let's ask -- here's a question here from Sophia in Toronto, Ontario: "If Bin Laden and Mullah Omar are not found, would the American public consider this war against the terrorists a failure?"
Senator, before you answer, we have asked this question in the year-end CNN-"Time" poll: is there a victory in Afghanistan if the United States does not capture Bin Laden?" Yes, 50 percent, no, 46 percent. So the country divided on the definition of victory.
HAGEL: Well, I think Bin Laden represents a symbol. It's a symbol of this new terrorism that we are now living with and will live with for a long time to come.
I am -- I am sure that the American people understand the challenge ahead. I am sure that they are committed to take whatever means necessary to secure this country, the safety of their children, so that we can go about the kind of life that this country wants, not just for ourselves, but for the world.
And so therefore I don't think the American public would consider this phase one part of our war on terrorism a failure if we can't find Bin Laden.
I'm in the general's camp on this. We will find him. There is nowhere he can hide. We will eventually get him. But more important, we have to understand that he is a symbol. He is a big part of terrorism worldwide, but -- but yet a symbol.
KING: We call this America's new war. Should the military be judged to be a success or a failure if Osama Bin Laden is (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?
SHEPPERD: Clearly the American public is going to be disappointed. I'm going to be disappointed personally if we don't get him and we don't get him quick. I want him dead or alive and I want him now.
But just as the senator said, it's going to be messy and it's going to be all around the world. Clearly, though, the whole world is looking for these guys now. That's different than before. Before it was just the United States and our interest from a distance and what have you. Now we're after them big time. We're going to get them, John.
KING: OK. We need to go, there. We are out of time. General Shepperd, Kelly McCann and Senator Hagel. Thank you all for your time tonight in the war room. And still ahead, a face of terror. The government's case in court, and the man it says connects some of the dots to Osama Bin Laden. A check of the latest developments when we return.
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KING: Welcome back. Here are the latest developments.
About two hundred U.S. Marines returned to their base near Kandahar today, after completing a thorough search of a compound believed to have been once occupied by Taliban leader Mullah Mohamad Omar. The search was billed as an intelligence-gathering mission.
The Pentagon is squashing rumors that Osama Bin Laden and Taliban leader Mullah Mohamad Omar are hiding together northwest of Kandahar. Officials say there is no reliable evidence to substantiate that story.
A plea of not guilty was entered in federal court today for Zacarias Moussaoui, the first person indicted in connection with the September 11th attacks. The judge set Moussaoui's trial for mid- October.
That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice, at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm John King in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.
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