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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

The War Room: First American Soldier Killed by Hostile Fire; Is Hunt for bin Laden, Omar Raises Risks for U.S. Forces?

Aired January 04, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN KING, GUEST HOST: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, "The War Room."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I know is that there was an exchange of small-arms fire that this American serviceman was doing his job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The Special Forces solder is the first member of the U.S. military killed by hostile fire in Afghanistan.

Is the hunt for al Qaeda and Taliban leaders raising the risks for U.S. forces? Can they count on their local allies? We'll go live to Afghanistan and the Pentagon, and I'll speak live with legendary CIA veteran Milt Bearden, head of the secret program to aid anti- Soviet rebels; former special forces and CIA officer Michael Vickers; and Robert McFarlane, former national security adviser to President Reagan, as we go into the War Room.

Good evening. I'm John King, reporting tonight from Washington. Wolf Blitzer is off.

Working with local Afghans, a special forces and CIA mission runs into trouble. Dangerous work, says the commander of the U.S. campaign in Afghanistan.

My guests tonight all have direct experience in such matters and we will get to them in just a few minutes. But first, let's hear from our correspondents. For more on the fatal clash and the broader military campaign, let's go live to CNN national correspondent Bob Franken on post at the Pentagon -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, John, it's the 90th day of the war and there has been so much good news in the minds of the Pentagon officials about the success that the military campaign has had, the irony is that it seems the more good news there is, the more it's followed by bad news.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Top Pentagon officials have warned that the war in Afghanistan has quieted down to its most dangerous phase. That point was tragically brought home by the commander, General Tommy Franks, on the 90th day of the war.

GENERAL TOMMY FRANKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: We had a special forces member killed earlier today by small arms fire, in the vicinity of Gardez-Khowst.

FRANKEN: He was the first member of the United States military killed by hostile fire in the Afghanistan war. It happened in eastern Afghanistan, near the Pakistan border, an area officials believe is bristling with al Qaeda. Defense and intelligence sources tell CNN that a CIA officer was also wounded.

They walked into an ambush during a joint operation seeking information on al Qaeda forces in the area. Officials would not say whether the supersecret Delta Force was part of the mission. They will say the Army special forces soldier who was killed was not part of Delta Force.

FRANKS: He was out for the purpose of working with and coordinating with tribal leaders in that area and I think anything else that I would say at this point would be a bit too speculative, and so I'll leave it at that.

FRANKEN: Pentagon sources tell CNN a quick reaction unit rushed to the area and evacuated the U.S. team. The CIA officer's wounds were described as serious but not life-threatening. Although it happened just a few miles from the suspected al Qaeda complex bombers raked for a second straight day, General Franks said the two operations were not directly connected.

It is one of two areas of particular interest to U.S. planners. The other is the region to the west where anti-Taliban forces are said to be in the process of dismantling Taliban forces. There are more and more reports that the negotiations include the fate of the Taliban supreme leader, Mullah Omar.

The interim government's foreign minister, Dr. Abdullah, said in Kabul whether Omar would be tried in or out of Afghanistan, quote, "will be decided when we capture him." But that uncertainty is definitely not matched in the U.S. government.

FRANKS: I'll reinforce the point by saying either inside Afghanistan or as he attempts to leave Afghanistan or in someplace else, we -- we certainly will -- we certainly will get him. Omar.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: They like to say here that they're going to meet their objectives one way or the other. But as the tragic news about the U.S. soldier demonstrates, the way may often be in harm's way -- John.

KING: Well, Bob, did General Franks give the indication he is certain that Omar is near Baghran, is in the area where negotiations are underway? And also, any update at all on Osama bin Laden's whereabouts? FRANKEN: To the contrary, he said he's not certain at all. There have been any number of reports that that is the case, but General Franks is being his usual public cautious self. As far as Osama bin Laden is concerned, they say he's either dead or alive, either in Afghanistan or not in Afghanistan.

KING: And the death today of this special forces officer reminds us the U.S. military and CIA operatives out with local Afghans still searching. Still searching in caves, still searching in tunnels. They obviously haven't found Omar or bin Laden. What are they finding, Bob?

FRANKEN: Well, they're finding some really massive materiel. Eight -- seven of eight cave complexes have been searched now, and they have found a huge cache of ammunition and weapons. They've found lots of intelligence material. They have found a number of what they call evidence of al Qaeda deaths, meaning bodies. They wouldn't be specific, but a lot of them.

And some of these caves are so complex, so sophisticated and so large, that one of the things did find in the caves was one tank. Apparently it was a house with a garage.

KING: Bob Franken, standing by for us tonight again at the Pentagon. Thank you very much, Bob. And now to Afghanistan, where U.S. special forces are taking part in the search for the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammed Omar. For that and more, we're joined by CNN's Bill Hemmer live from his post in Kandahar -- Bill.

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, John. Good morning from Kandahar. The search for the two most wanted men in this part of the world continues again now here in Afghanistan. Specifically, we're still getting reports through Hamid Karzai, the interim governor, and also the local governor of Kandahar.

They indicate in northern Helmand Province, that town of Baghran that we've discussed for days now, they still believe Mullah Mohammed Omar, the founder of the Taliban, is still seeking refuge in that area.

They also indicate 1500 loyal Taliban troops may be surrounding him. And again, there are negotiations, we are told, underway right now for the surrender of those soldiers and the turning over of arms.

We also know several teams of U.S. special forces are in that area as teams working in groups of 12 right now, possibly supervising that turnover.

But again, with regard to Mullah Mohammed Omar, it is very difficult to ascertain right now, given the various reports and the fluid nature of this story, the rumors and the reports basically, John, have been all over the map regarding the Taliban founder.

Now, with regard to Osama bin Laden, in eastern Afghanistan the U.S. now starting a new campaign. In fact, they dropped thousands of leaflets in eastern Afghanistan, two-sided leaflets. On one side depicts Afghan soldiers dead and al Qaeda fighters dead also, and at times the U.S. leaflets describe in local languages Osama bin Laden as a murderer and a coward.

They also indicate, "you mean nothing to him" in quotes there on one side. On the other, they depict Osama bin Laden dressed in Western-style clothing with a suit and tie on, with a shaved beard, no turban, nothing on his head. Again, these are being dropped right now.

They're also being recorded. The messages, in two different languages, broadcast on local radio in eastern Afghanistan.

Now from Kabul, the Afghan capital, an agreement has been signed earlier on Friday to initiate the first stage of an international peacekeeping force. In fact, some U.S. Marines are already there. So too are some British Marines from -- from England as well, patrolling various streets there.

Again, we expect at some point this peacekeeping force to build anywhere from 4,000 to 4,500 specifically responsible for maintaining security and the peace in that region.

It's largely been understood that Kabul is much more secure than many parts of Afghanistan, especially when compared to the south and in the town of Kandahar. That's why peacekeepers are there first.

We expect them later in this part of the country, possibly toward the end of the month of January, and into the month of February. John?

KING: And Bill, what's the update this morning your time in Kandahar on plans to move many of those detainees that have been held there at the Kandahar base? Any update on when they will be shipped out or where they're going?

HEMMER: Earlier on Friday, Tommy Franks indicated maybe a week to 10 days some would go. But keep in mind there are 250, John, right here at the Kandahar airport. We are told that not all will go. Possibly a handful, once investigators here can determine what they know and what they may or may not be hiding from investigators.

Again, 250 right now. We continue to get more every night. And as I mentioned -- and also I should point out that the U.S. reasons indicated that the expansion facility has taken place. They can handle up to 400 more immediately right now. By the end of January, they say that will be expanded to 500 here at the Kandahar airport alone -- John.

KING: And Bill, did I hear you correctly in discussing this security operation, the international security force up in Kabul? Is there a role for U.S. Marines there?

That has been a sensitive question, U.S. officials saying they will be part of the military campaign but this international security force will be non-U.S. troops. Are the Marines taking part? HEMMER: There will be a role for them, John, and certainly that role is expected to be expanded in the near future. Right now we know the Marines have been on slight patrol there on the streets of Kabul, and certainly they're guarding the U.S. embassy there that was reopened several weeks ago.

Again, the Marines will have a role. But at this point the peacekeeping force is still taking shape and we'll work out details on that as we go in the coming weeks and day ahead, John.

KING: All right. Bill Hemmer, thank you. Once again, tracking developments across Afghanistan from his post in Kandahar.

And this programing note: Bill Hemmer will have more at the top of the hour in his special report, "LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN."

A U.S. liaison mission with Afghan tribal elements goes wrong. Are more troops needed to hunt down al Qaeda and Taliban leaders? Are the Afghan allies reliable?

Joining me now here in the War Room: Milt Bearden, a 30-year CIA veteran. He was in charge of covert aid to anti-Soviet rebels in Afghanistan. Michael Vickers, a former Army Green Beret and CIA officer, now with the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessment. And Robert McFarlane, national security adviser to President Reagan. He's worked closely with anti-Taliban Afghan leaders.

You can e-mail your war room questions to cnn.com/wolf.

Gentlemen, first to this ambush today, the death of a U.S. special forces officer. Let's peek at the map here where this operation took place. We're talking about searches of caves in this area here. Obviously you can see you've got the Afghan-Pakistan border, you have a few towns just south of -- Gardez and Khowst just south of Kabul.

Michael Vickers, this is the business you used to be in. What does this type of operation and the tragic death today of a U.S. soldier tell you about the situation on the ground? Just what U.S. special forces are involved at the moment and the risk?

MICHAEL VICKERS, FORMER SPECIAL FORCES AND CIA OFFICER: Well, 90 days of combat, this is really one of the most dangerous phases of the campaign from a special forces perspective.

Rather than having fixed Taliban or al Qaeda positions, you now have remnants of these forces. And the Gardez-Khowst area is one of the most dangerous areas. And so one could bump into forces or as in the case of an ambush or have snipers. This terrain is very conducive to it and -- and makes it very dangerous.

KING: Milt Bearden, what do you know about the situation on the ground there? And obviously this still is a very unsafe climate for U.S. troops.

MILT BEARDEN, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, Gardez-Khowst was probably the one area in Afghanistan where the Soviets paid with blood more than any other single spot in eastern Afghanistan.

You've got a noose that's tightened down on -- on the remnants of the Taliban. Inside there, you have militias, you have tribal clans. You've got groups. Everybody is carrying a Kalashnikov or an RPG.

You're going take casualties. The Soviets in one spetznaz battalion -- the spetznaz battalion in 1987 lost 50 percent KIA by wandering down one of those mountain valleys.

KING: Well, then, Bud McFarlane, given that history, given what happened on the ground today -- a very small number of Americans, special forces and CIA out with Afghans -- answer this question posed by Douglas in Vancouver, British Columbia. "Is it fair to say that the United States is reluctant to send in more ground troops to search for Omar and bin Laden? We are beginning to hear comments from the special forces that with the help of more forces, they believe they would have been able to get bin Laden in Tora Bora."

Is this a fair issue, a fair question, for people now to say why are so few Americans out in these obviously dangerous situations?

ROBERT MCFARLANE, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER TO PRESIDENT REAGAN: Well, I don't think it's an unreasonable analysis. When you ask yourself, for strange terrain, and which we know very little, doesn't it make more sense to rely on local Afghans to track what is going on through these remnants that are wandering around the countryside?

It does put a premium on knowing exactly who is giving you good information and who is giving you bad information. But clearly the Afghans, the locals -- the anti-Taliban Afghans -- have to carry the -- the heavy lifting on this. And still it's to be risky. Milt's right. This is very, very tough terrain and the defender has the -- the advantage.

KING: The death of this soldier today raised this question anew. Are U.S. forces (UNINTELLIGIBLE) properly? Do they have enough help? The question was put to the commander of the operation, General Tommy Franks, earlier today. Let's listen to his answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKS: I do not have regrets that -- that more U.S. troops have not been put in Afghanistan. I believe that the plan that we've exercised has been the appropriate plan. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't change it at all. Because it -- it makes sense when we have a willing ally, in this case these opposition or anti-Taliban forces, willing to work with us in order to permit us to reach our goals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That sound right, Michael Vickers? If you were one of the special forces guys, are you comfortable with a small number of Americans and a larger number of Afghans?

VICKERS: Well, I think the results speak for themselves. They've had very good results so far, and the anti-Taliban forces in this area have been providing a lot of security. Of course, it can't be perfect but that could happen if there were U.S. forces there too.

KING: Let's move on to another issue. It's two days ago now, I think, we heard Don Rumsfeld, the defense secretary, talking about these negotiations for Mullah Omar's release -- Mullah Omar's capture or surrender and the Taliban troops up there.

He indicated he had very little patience for this, yet it goes on two days later. Jay in Washington, D.C. asks this question: "Why does the United States continue to acquiesce in the Afghan's cultural penchant for surrender negotiations when delay and escape are obviously the true aims of former Taliban members?"

KING: Bud McFarlane, you first. But as you answer the question, let's show our viewers again the map we saw from Bob Franken and Bill Hemmer of the area we're talking about, the Baghran area here, the Helmand Province. Kandahar is down here, Baghran is up here. Here is the province we're talking about.

By all accounts, somewhere up here in the mountains is where the negotiations are taking place. But obviously if you look at this province, there is a way out into Pakistan. Should that be a concern?

MCFARLANE: Well, it is a concern, but I think the tradition in Afghanistan is for trying to reconcile or resolve disagreements with former enemies with as little bloodshed as possible.

In this case, however, we do have substantial leverage. And I think clearly Don Rumsfeld is right that we could use that leverage with the tribal leaders to say that there's not going to be very much rebuilding or new money coming in here until we get the guy we came after, and we will.

KING: Do you see evidence of that leverage, Milt, being used in the sense that these negotiations are continuing in one part of the country?

You had this tragic operation today in which one special forces officer lost his life. And yet at the same time the new transitional government is actually releasing rank-and-file Taliban fighters by the dozens back into the general population. Potentially some reinforcements, if you will, for these al Qaeda forces still wandering the country.

BEARDEN: Maybe yes, maybe no. The problem here is not that we have two foreign armies that have clashed and are now negotiating a way to lay down weapons. These people are talking across the line with cousins, with their clan members, with their tribal members. That's where we've come in this war.

So yes, the U.S. has leverage and the leverage is as Bud says, the reconstruction. But the issue is, do we throw more troops at this? No, I don't think so. You're not going to get anywhere by trying to get away from the script that the U.S. has written, which is working. The Soviets said, let's throw more troops at it. 120,000 of them went in and that's where they maxed out because they couldn't support more than that and -- and they lost an empire.

KING: One lesson of history. Bud McFarlane, you know many of these people well. The question being asked now more and more because the Karzai government is in place, up and running, has begun to assert itself -- as one would expect -- saying don't bomb during the daytime, be careful about civilian casualties.

Suzy in Berkeley, California, asks: "Can we trust Karzai with military information regarding the capture of bin Laden or Omar?"

Can we?

MCFARLANE: I think we have to, and I think we can in good faith.

Karzai has a pretty good sense of vision about what it's going take to bring together the north and the south, and he understands that there are bound to be resentment and real anger when unnecessary casualties or accidental casualties occur. But I think he's on top of it. I think he wants the same things that we do, and I think we can work together.

KING: What about all the others? Can we trust those people most closely around him or can we trust that there's enough of a communications infrastructure in place now when it comes to local leaders, tribal leaders out in the provinces?

MCFARLANE: Well, this is the task of diplomacy and it's true that there are vested interests on all sides: Tajiks, Uzbeks and Pashtuns. But I think Karzai has as good an eye as anyone on how to engage politically with each of those figures and make sure each gets his rice bowl filled as to the extent is necessary. But I think, yeah, the outcome in Bonn is about as good was we could hope for.

KING: And Michael Vickers, you don't get to make all those decisions. It never works perfectly from an operation standpoint. If you were in the field there, is it somewhat unfortunate -- perhaps the wrong choice of words -- that the political developments have moved so quickly, if you will, so that you do have that added factor? You have to consult with a new government as you're planning still ongoing military operations in a very dangerous environment?

VICKERS: We are moving to this new phase of reconstruction and really solidifying this interim government. And so the success of the long-term U.S. mission in Afghanistan will depend how we do there. So you really can't separate them. And I -- and I agree with Bud McFarlane that Karzai and Abdullah and Younis Kanouni, the interior minister, have all been really staunch allies. We couldn't ask for more.

KING: All right. We'll stop it here for now and take a break. When we come back to the War Room, messing with their minds. Can psychological warfare make a difference in the fight against al Qaeda?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Welcome back to the War Room. They call it psy-ops. Psychological warfare experts are trying to play mind games with al Qaeda fighters and those who would support them. Will it work? Can it backfire?

I'm joined here in the war room by former CIA official Milt Bearden; Michael Vickers, a one-time Green Beret and CIA officer; and Robert McFarlane, national security adviser to President Reagan.

Let's begin with this new leaflet, gentlemen, that's being dropped. On the one hand, it says "Osama bin Laden has abandoned you." "The murderer," it calls him. And on the other hand it shows him -- what he might look like if he had shaved his beard and was trying to escape. He's dressed in Western clothing. Michael Vickers, an effective part of this strategy?

VICKERS: Well, psy-ops tries a number of techniques, but the best psy-ops is based on truth, and there is truth behind this.

One of the documents that was recently captured in Afghanistan, supposedly written by Ayman al-Zawahiri, the number two man in al Qaeda, basically laid down a doctrine for where the leadership should bug out and others should give their life so that knowing al Qaeda would live to fight another day. So not the commitment to their troops one would expect, that we heard at the beginning of the conflict.

KING: Bud McFarlane, is there a potential downside? Could this be insulting in any way from a cultural perspective?

MCFARLANE: Well, you run that risk, but I think what we have going for us is the fact that this is largely a foreign force and to the extent you play on that theme that these are Arabs, not Afghans, you have a huge advantage in playing to a people who have been oppressed by this crowd for five years now.

KING: This is not the first leaflet. There was an earlier leaflet that showed Omar and Osama in the crosshairs, if you will. There was also, in that leaflet -- and I believe even another leaflet -- discussing the reward put forward by the State Department.

Lawrence in New York City asks this question: "Are there any concrete results being generated by the $25 million reward offered for these criminals? Perhaps the value of this reward has not been explained adequately to the Afghan people."

BEARDEN; The Afghan people know what money is. For -- the place has run on foreign money for the last 20 years, so they understand, I think, 25 million and what that translates into. Whether or not somebody will -- will act on that and -- and betray Osama bin Laden or even Mullah Omar is something that just hasn't happened yet.

We are in day 90 of this undertaking. And I'd say, steady as she goes. Try some of these things, change your theme. But the overall theme is to -- is not bad, and it might even -- it might even turn the trick. So there's got to be a certain liveliness of the imagination as they move forward, and I wouldn't second guess it for a minute.

KING: A liveliness of the imagination. Bud McFarlane, take us inside the National Security Council. When you're planning such an operation, to what degree do you think the psychological warfare factors into the strategy -- the overall strategy? You've got a war on the ground, you've got an air campaign. Where does this fit in?

MCFARLANE: Well, it has a role. It's maybe 5, 10 percent of your overall strategy. Here again, a theme I repeated, and that is, rely on the people who are on the ground, the Afghans. The knowledge they have is far superior to our own. The key is engaging with the right ones and that's the key judgment we have to make.

KING: Each of you has considerable experience with these type of operations and Afghanistan and its people. Milt Bearden, we have photos of you during your work there when the United States and the Reagan administration -- which you worked in, among others -- were supporting the anti-Soviet Afghan fighters.

Many went on to become Taliban fighters. One of the issues there is some -- to a limited degree, and we haven't seen in this campaign yet -- but there is a worry that some of the weapons at their disposal have the made-in-the-USA label. That was another issue discussed earlier today by General Tommy Franks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKS: With respect to -- to Stinger missiles, I think that if I tried to put a number on it, it would be -- I mean, I'd be speculating. I think I would say that we -- we would anticipate that there would be numbers in the low hundreds.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Milt Bearden, Bud McFarlane, an unfortunate legacy of what at the time was a policy you certainly viewed as appropriate?

BEADEN: Sure. A legacy. A couple of hundred Stingers out there, for sure. But what was the tradeoff? The tradeoff was stopping the Soviet invasion that had killed a million people, a million and a half wounded and six million people driven into exile. Maybe 30 to 40 percent of the population of Afghanistan killed or wounded or exiled. I -- it's worth the tradeoff.

Those Stingers are 13 years on the shelf now or under somebody's bunk. Certainly there's always a danger. It's a very, very, very good weapon. But, you know, at what point do you say -- do you second guess yourself retroactively?

KING: Haven't heard anything about them yet that leads you to believe they're obsolete or at this point they've been left behind?

MCFARLANE: Oh, I think you have to expect that some are surely functional and they pose a -- an enormous risk in isolated encounters like this. But Milt is right. Stop and recall this was an historic turning point that ended the Cold War, brought down Marxism and the Soviet Union, an incalculable gain for the West. And this is one of the risks that the legacy involves, but it -- it's something we can deal with.

BEARDEN: Don't forget -- don't forget for a minute that the U.S. military, particularly our air assets, are -- are redefining what air warfare is, and -- and they're doing this from above the range of the Stinger for the most part, they have been. It runs out of gas at about 12,000 feet.

KING: OK. We have to go there. I'm sorry. Quick thanks. Michael Vickers, I owe you a little time next time. I'll make Wolf put it on account, I promise. thank you, Milt Bearden, Bud McFarlane, Michael Vickers, for joining us tonight in the war room.

And TV cameras in the courtroom. Should they be allowed at the trial of the first man charged in the September 11th attacks? That and some of the other latest developments when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Here's a quick look at some of the latest developments we're following. The U.S. Central Command says a special forces soldier died today in what's described as an ambush in eastern Afghanistan. The soldier is the first American service member there killed by enemy fire.

U.S. special forces are taking part -- part in the hunt for Mullah Mohammed Omar in Afghanistan's Helmand Province. Intelligence information indicates the Taliban leader is in the region, But some U.S. service members are saying they are afraid he will escape unless more personnel are added to the mission.

A hearing is set for Wednesday on whether the trial of Zacarias Moussaoui should be televised. He's first person charged in connection with the September 11 attacks. Moussaoui's lawyers support restricted TV coverage. The Justice Department is opposed to it.

That's all the time we have tonight. Thank you very much for watching. I'm John King in Washington. Most of you, I'm sure, will be very happy to know Wolf Blitzer returns on Monday. And "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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