Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Is Capture of al Qaeda Leaders Paying Off? Is United States Any Safer With Osama bin Laden and Mullah Mohammed Omar On Run?

Aired January 08, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: There's no sign of Osama bin Laden, but U.S. forces are getting their hands on other al Qaeda leaders and on a lot of information. Is it paying off?

RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: I think we have thwarted some attacks.

BLITZER: With bin Laden and Mullah Omar on the run, is the U.S. any safer now? What's the next battleground? We'll go live to Afghanistan and to the Pentagon, and I'll speak live with Representative Saxby Chambliss of the House Intelligence Committee, Robin Wright of the "Los Angles Times," and retired General Wesley Clark, the former NATO supreme commander, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington. U.S. air strikes have resumed in Afghanistan. Though Osama bin Laden and Mullah Mohammed Omar remain at large, U.S. officials say the war against terrorism has only just begun.

Tonight, we'll take a close look at the dangers still facing Americans in Afghanistan, around the world, and here in the United States. But first, let's check the latest developments in the war.

U.S. forces are now questioning a senior al Qaeda leader who may be a source for new, important information. Let's go straight to Afghanistan. That's where CNN's Bill Hemmer is standing by in Kandahar with this developing story. Bill, give us the latest.

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we are hearing right now this could be a major break for investigators. The man the U.S. accuses of running the terrorist training camps here at Afghanistan has been transported to USS Bataan. Sources tell me right now he is being very cooperative with U.S. investigators. And again, it would be a key break in this case, depending on the information he may offer.

He's from Libya. His name is Ibn al-Sheikh al Libi (ph). He was transported yesterday in secret to the USS Bataan, floating in the Arabian Sea. And by the way, that is the same ship that holds seven other prisoners, including the American, 20-year-old John Walker.

In addition, we now understand Abdul Salam Zaeef -- you might remember that name, he's the former Taliban ambassador to Pakistan -- yesterday, he was transported from the Bataan up to Bagram Air Base north of Kabul. No indication given as to why for that move. But we're told the interrogation for Zaeef will continue there, north of the capital city.

Back here in Kandahar now, the transition appears to be well underway, Wolf, for moving detainees -- hundreds of them, ultimately the possibility of thousands -- from here in Kandahar to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

We're told the question is hours at this point, not necessarily days anymore. We know for three days time military planners and investigators are trying to be very secret and very meticulous about these movements. One source tells me they're ready here in Kandahar for the transport. They're just waiting for Cuba and Guantanamo Bay to come on line.

Also, in eastern Afghanistan, more information -- intelligence information apparently picked up inside those caves and tunnels in eastern Afghanistan. Now getting reports to the Pentagon that laptop computers and cell phones have been seized, and it's this information that is being used to track now not only al Qaeda leaders here in Afghanistan, but certainly the entire terror network around the world.

Also they found about a dozen more al Qaeda fighters, two of whom have been taken into custody. They were brought here late last night. Again, the running total right now in Kandahar in terms of detainees, Wolf, 301 as we speak now -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And we also heard today, Bill, about an al Qaeda fighter who took his life. What's going on on that front?

HEMMER: Another sign of the deadly environment here in southern Afghanistan, Wolf. It was about 18 hours ago, early morning Tuesday morning in central Kandahar.

This was an al Qaeda fighter who had been holed up inside of a hospital for weeks. He apparently tried to escape, jumped from a second-story building -- window, rather. When he hit the pavement immediately he was surrounded by guards. He ignited a grenade and blew himself up.

But at this time six other al Qaeda fighters still remain holed up inside that hospital. They say they food and they have weapons and they will not go down without a fight. That situation is ongoing. Again, as I mentioned, it has been going on now for weeks in central Kandahar -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Bill Hemmer reporting live from Kandahar.

And this important note. Bill Hemmer will have much more at the top of the hour, in his special report "LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN." For more on those al Qaeda detainees now in United States hands, let's go live to our CNN Military Affairs Correspondent Jamie McIntyre. He of course is over at the Pentagon -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, today at the Pentagon they were not identifying who these two high- ranking al Qaeda officials were, but they do say that they were of sufficient importance that they were of high interest to the United States.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

(voice-over): Add two more to the growing list of captured al Qaeda and Taliban forces who will soon be transported to the U.S. Navy base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The Pentagon says U.S. troops still scouring a former al Qaeda stronghold near Khost found the two high- ranking al Qaeda members in a group of 14 people who were captured without resistance. And with every capture comes more intelligence.

GENERAL RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: Laptop computers, cell phones. Some small arms and training documents were also found and returned to Kandahar with the two detainees, and we're exploiting those as we speak.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon is now preparing to move the first of more than 360 detainees under U.S. custody in Afghanistan to Guantanamo. Pentagon sources say the prisoners will be flown out of Bagram Air Base on Air Force C-141s, with security forces that will greatly outnumber them.

The Pentagon says the prisoners are extremely dangerous because of their fanatical beliefs and hatred of the United States. But some apparently are talking.

MYERS: Indeed, we are getting some intelligence on this. We think we have thwarted some -- some attacks, but to get into any more detail starts to give away what we know and what they don't know we know, and so we've got to be very, very careful.

MCINTYRE: Pentagon officials are also being more careful in describing the way Army Sergeant First Class Nathan Chapman was killed last week.

Initially described as an ambush that occurred after a meeting with friendly Afghans, now officials are saying they are not so sure what happened.

Meanwhile, the U.S. has completed its search of caves in the Tora Bora area, finding evidence Osama bib laden has been there and gone. And new airstrikes were ordered Monday near the Zhawar Kili training complex, when another compound was discovered by U.S. ground troops.

An up-close look has revealed the complex was much bigger, with more extensive underground facilities, than U.S. intelligence thought.

(END VIDEO TAPE) (on camera): And CNN has learned that preliminary findings of an investigation into a friendly fire accident that occurred north of Kandahar on December 5, according to Pentagon sources it now appears that the soldiers on the ground mistakenly called in an airstrike on their own location -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie, if they're backing away from earlier suggestions that sergeant Chapman was killed in an ambush, what could it have been?

MCINTYRE: Well, they're saying -- they're not saying for sure it was an ambush, but they're also not saying for sure it wasn't. They're just trying to be more cautious.

You know, the saying at the Pentagon is "first reports are always wrong." Now, the first reports were that this looked like a setup, that somebody had been given information about the route that these soldiers -- the soldier and the CIA companion were taking.

They were driving along a mountain road when they got hit by hostile fire. Now it's not so clear if it was in fact an ambush that was set up or just another incidence of hostile fire.

The Pentagon pulling back a little bit privately, saying let's wait until the investigation is in before we jump to any conclusion. And they say they have no evidence at this point that anybody that was friendly to the United States, allies over there, in any way provided information or compromised the security of those U.S. forces. They are saying, let's wait and see what the investigation finds.

BLITZER: OK. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thank you very much.

Meanwhile, the Maryland police have released a videotape of a traffic stop involving one of the September 11 hijackers. Two days before the suicide attacks, Ziad Jarrah was stopped for driving 90 miles an hour on Interstate 95.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, sir. 90 miles an hour in a 65 zone is a $270 fine. I need your signature down here at the bottom.

BLITZER (voice-over): The officer said it was a routine traffic stop, so he wrote Jarrah a ticket and sent him on his way. Two days later, Jarrah helped commandeer the United Airlines flight that crashed in Pennsylvania.

The Maryland State Police defend the officer's actions, saying the officer saw no evidence of anything suspicious, and couldn't have known he had stumbled upon this.

MIKE CLEMENTS, FBI: When Jarrah was stopped on I-95, he was -- he was not on the radar screen of any federal agency. And he was actually here, as I'm told, legally under a multiple entry visa that was good through 2005. BLITZER: The State Police also say it's simply impractical for their officers to run a check on every driver they stop.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

(on camera): Though the bottom line question is this: Are we any less vulnerable now than we were on September 11th? As senior al Qaeda members are rounded up, is the United States winning the war on terrorism?

Joining me now here in the CNN WAR ROOM, representative Saxby Chambliss. He's chairman of the House Intelligence Subcommittee on Terrorism and Homeland Security; the retired General Wesley Clark, CNN military analyst and former supreme commander of NATO; and Robin Wright of the "Los Angles Times." She's reported from more than 120 countries. Among her books: "Sacred Rage: the Wrath of Militant Islam."

Remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to us. Go to my web page, cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily online column.

And Congressman, let me begin with you and ask you about this incident. Two days before the September 11 terrorist attack, this guy is stopped on I-95 near Baltimore and he's let go.

REPRESENTATIVE SAXBY CHAMBLISS (R-GA), SUBCOMMITTEE ON TERRORISM: Well, Wolf, there doesn't appear to be any indication from preliminary reports that have been given out thus far that there was any reason to suspect anything unusual about this guy.

But what this does do is it highlights a real deficiency that we've got in our intelligence community regarding information sharing between federal agencies themselves, including law enforcement agencies, the INS, customs, or whoever may come into knowledge of some information that they need to be sharing with law enforcement agencies, as well as policy decisions that have got to be made regarding sharing of information by our federal law enforcement agencies with state and local law enforcement agencies.

BLITZER: He apparently was not on a watch list, any federal law enforcement or intelligence watch list. But are you going to take specific actions now to make sure the federal government works closely with state and local authorities to get the word out there, if you will?

CHAMBLISS: Well, we're going to have to. And we're doing that now. I'm doing a series of local responder hearings all around the state of Georgia, talking to local law enforcement agencies about the fact they are not getting information right now, what is best way to get it, how much do they need, how much do they not need. That sort of thing is -- is being discussed right now.

And we are discussing it with the FBI as well and the CIA as well. CIA and FBI share information thoroughly with each other, but other federal agencies still do not share all the information on a timely basis with law enforcement agencies. We've got to improve that. We've got to set policy with respect to who we share that with at state and local level.

BLITZER: General Clark, as you well know, a former commander of NATO, there is a concern always in the intelligence community if too many people know what's going on, they could compromise the so-called sources and methods, the crown jewels of the intelligence-gathering process.

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, FORMER NATO COMMANDER: That's exactly right. it's a function of what is it -- what is it you're giving out in the way of information. In other words, what was the source? Is it -- is it really a problem of just pulling information together or is it information that really did come from sensitive sources.

And if it's publicly available information, you can widely share it. For example, people who come into this country on student visas and the visas have expired. But that information should be easily shared. It doesn't represent a compromise of sources and methods.

BLITZER: This war in Afghanistan, Robin, seems to be taking on new front right now, namely in Pakistan, because U.S. troops apparently have some permission from President Musharraf to go in there and search the areas along the border with Afghanistan.

ROBIN WRIGHT, "LOS ANGELES TIMES:" Absolutely. And I think this is one of the ways that we're seeing the war focus less and less on Afghanistan itself and kind of residual looking for the last folks -- the last of the Taliban leadership, last of Osama bin Laden and his boys, but also moving outside of Afghanistan to five different locations as the so-called next phase of the war is -- is getting well underway.

BLITZER: What's the best information that you have, Congressman, on the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden?

CHAMBLISS: He's somewhere over there. That's about all I think anybody knows right now.

You know, there is great suspicion that he has moved to Pakistan. That may be the case. But I don't think anybody can say definitely at this point.

I think the one thing that -- that we do know for sure and that is the locals over there, the Pakistanis, are working just as hard as our Marines and our special ops folks to try to find this guy. And the good news is that we're going to find him. He's moving. And as long as he's moving, we're going to ultimately find him.

BLITZER: We have an e-mail question, General Clark, from Paul in Caldwell, New Jersey. He e-mails us this: "If the United States is granted permission to pursue al Qaeda and Taliban members over the border into Pakistan, how likely is it that the U.S. theater of operations will be expanded into that country?

CLARK: Well, I think the U.S. theater of operations really is expanded into Pakistan already. We've got troops on the ground there, and airfields and other things.

It's just a question of what are the rules of engagement in Pakistan. And that's an easy change. And I'm sure if we put troops in there then we're going to have the right rules of engagement to not only protect themselves but accomplish the mission.

BLITZER: How difficult of a decision is this for President Musharraf in Pakistan, to allow U.S. forces to work together with Pakistani military troops to go in and search that area for bin Laden and other al Qaeda and Taliban members?

WRIGHT: Well, it made the commitment earlier. I think the tricky part is he's under pressure on a lot of different fronts. Along his Indian border there's a bigger buildup than at any time in decades. At the same time, the United States is asking for concessions from the Pakistani leadership on India as well as asking for help in finding Osama bin Laden.

And Musharraf has to make sure that he doesn't come across as a stooge of the United States, that he is making these decisions in the best interest of Pakistan, not in the best interest of the United States, because his leadership is really at stake. And that's -- that could be one of the, you know, unintended consequences of -- of this war, what happens to Pakistan.

BLITZER: And the U.S. constantly has to worry about those political calculations. It -- it just can't operate as if the U.S. military can do whatever it wanted.

CHAMBLISS: Well, this is a fractious coalition that the president has put together to this point, with -- with countries from around the world who have been bitter enemies for decades and now all of a sudden they have all rallied around this issue of fighting terrorism. And certainly the -- the heart of the matter centers on Pakistan right now, but it has the potential to spread out to other countries.

And if it goes to Somalia, as has been mentioned, if it goes to Iraq which has been mentioned, then this coalition must be maintained but it's going to be very, very sensitive right on.

BLITZER: General Clark, another question from Richard in New Jersey. He writes this: "Should the United States introduce more special forces ground troops in order to improve its ability to encircle the enemy and prevent the escape of al Qaeda and Taliban leaders like Mullah Omar?"

CLARK: Well, it's an important consideration, Wolf, and the theater commander is going to have to really answer that question. We've got more special forces. Not sure if they're all as -- as environment qualified as the ones that are there now, but we could probably get more people in there.

But that's really the kind of judgment the commander gets-- that's -- that's his job is to look at that. And we can't say from back here, because we don't know exactly how many are there. We don't know exactly where they're deployed. So best to leave that to Tommy Franks.

BLITZER: Robin, I want put up on our screen a map of this area and show our viewers what's going on. This is the Tora Bora region over here. And this -- this whole area in Pakistan, along the border, it's sort of like the wild west as described there. There are tribal warlords out there. The central government of President Musharraf may not necessarily have control over that area.

WRIGHT: Well, I think that's very true. In fact, I was there last year and driving between Peshawar on the border and Kabul, and you go through an area where, you know, you see these enormous mansions that are owned by some of world's most notorious drug traffickers who are beyond the limits of anybody's control. They're inside Pakistan but in an area that's kind of untouchable. So it's very difficult area to penetrate.

And I think there's a second question as well, about the internal intelligence service in Pakistan and the degree to which all of the agents are loyal.

It's clear that the leadership since President Musharraf changed the -- at the top, that they are loyal. But there's some real questions about those lower level who are Islamist in their outlook and who looked at the Taliban as close allies of Pakistan. And the question is, are they helping as much as they can?

BLITZER: I want to read the -- a comment from Richard Cohen, the columnist, who wrote in the "Washington Post" today this, and get your reaction, Congressman. "America has fought this war on the cheap. The response to the worst attack on American soil amounted to the hiring of Hessians. The United States would not even commit troops to sealing the border with Pakistan."

CHAMBLISS: Well, it's not easy to seal that border with Pakistan. Our mission over there was defined. Our mission was to go after the terrorists, after the folks who are harboring terrorists. That was the folks in Afghanistan, the Taliban.

Our mission has been strictly focused on that and is going to continue to be focused on that until we root out those guys over there. We are close to doing that.

Sealing off the border is a decision that -- that the military leaders had to make. As General Clark says, it's sometimes up to those folks on the ground to make a decision as to whether or not that's what we ought to do next. But I think we have been focused on the right area and we are about to accomplish what we set out to do.

BLITZER: General Clark, given the concern over casualties -- U.S. casualties, which is an understandable concern -- has the U.S., as Cohen suggested, fought this war on the cheap?

CLARK: I don't think so. I think -- I think that's -- it's certainly a characterization that can be made, but I don't think it's a correct characterization.

I tell you what I see this. There are really three ways we could have done this.

We could have gone in for a Soviet-style invasion, which would put several hundred thousand troops. It would have taken months to build it up. Osama bin Laden could have gone. We could have arouse hostility in the Islamic world and Pakistan would have had enormous problems.

Or we could have gone very slowly. We could have put some covert intelligences operatives. We could have waited until we developed all the information. And meanwhile, we'd have still had the threat coming at us, the Americans, and people in the world saying, "where is the United States?"

What we did is we did the most expedient thing to address the threat that was directed at this country. And I think we did it extremely well. I think the men and women in the armed forces did a great job on it. I can tell you that in terms of their willingness to take risks, they will take risks -- but they'll take smart risks. And right now this strategy has worked as well at breaking up the threat as any strategy that you can conceive of.

BLITZER: OK. Stand by. We're going to take a quick break. When come back, from Southeast Asia to Africa, is the war on terrorism being fought outside our view? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to the CNN WAR ROOM. Is the war against terrorism already producing victories elsewhere in the world? Victories we have heard nothing about? What about that, Robin?

WRIGHT: Well, I think that in stark contrast to the very visible war that's been fought in Afghanistan, there is a kind of invisible war that's been taking place in a lot different countries.

Some very obviously, you know, like Europe where you've seen a number of arrests. But perhaps most importantly in some key Islamic countries: Sudan, Yemen, the Philippines. The two other big ones that the United States is focusing on now are obviously Somalia and Indonesia. The two question marks.

But in Sudan, for example, they've arrested some key al Qaeda operatives in the place where Osama bin Laden spent five years before he moved to Afghanistan, where he actually built up what we call, you know, al Qaeda Incorporated with vast businesses and major training camps and so forth.

And several people were left behind. The Sudanese -- which is a country on the U.S. State Department terrorism list -- have begun to not only cooperate but allow the United States full access to these people. And they -- the United States has on several occasions come and gone to -- to talk to these as they get new information.

Yemen has begun, with U.S. prodding, to engage in operations looking for individuals who are sympathetic or part the of al Qaeda network. The Philippines, where you've seen American-trained troops going in looking for Muslim extremists as well.

These are major areas. These are the countries where the biggest problems are, in which it's -- it's encouraging that there has been a beginning, with the emphasis on beginning.

BLITZER: Congressman, in the past al Qaeda conducted these major operations at intervals of 18 months to two years. As you know, in recent days the Office of Homeland Security continued the full alert, at least through the Olympic Games in February, the Winter Olympics. How worried should Americans still be that despite the disruption of al Qaeda, the Taliban, that there could still be a terrorist threat out there?

CHAMBLISS: Well, Wolf, we're still living in a different world post-September 11. We -- we now know that we are subject to attack in the United States and that is something we're just going to have to live with. People are going to have to be more cautious, more conscious about what's going on around them, but not change their day- to-day activity. I think the administration will continue...

BLITZER: It's hard to do that, as you know.

CHAMBLISS: Oh, yeah .

BLITZER: It's hard to remain on full alert and not change your day-to-day activity.

CHAMBLISS: Well, it is, but I think that's the way we're going to ultimately win this war. I think the administration continues to do the right things to raise the -- the alert issue with people. When we see more activity in the terrorist community -- even though we don't know where it may be -- I think people need to know that there is a potential for an event to occur.

It may happen in three months, it may happen in 18 months. My guess is that they're probably going to try something before that 18 months. They're probably going to try to make a statement. We've got to do everything we can to try to disrupt that event.

BLITZER: These other countries that Robin was talking about that are now cooperating with the United States, more or less. Are they doing that because they see what's happened to the Taliban?

CHAMBLISS: Well, some of them see what's happened to the Taliban. They see what happened in Afghanistan, the U.S. power.

But some of them are doing it because this is an opening for them, and they can come in and now they can get something from the United States. They've got an opening. Maybe they can get loan relief, as Pakistan did.

And -- and maybe they see an opportunity to consolidate their power internally over other groups. it's a chance to shift alignment a little bit. So they should take advantage of this.

BLITZER: General, Robin, Congressman, thank you very much. We'll continue this discussion.

And when come back, we'll have a check of the latest developments including a look at the latest fallout from Israel's seizure of a ship filled with weapons.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. A lot of interest was generated by our program last night on the money maze, which looked at the fundraising for families of the September 11 victims.

We want to update you now on the latest figures from two important funds. The September 11 Fund has raised $380 million and has disbursed $143 million. The International Association of Firefighters has raised $115 million and has disbursed $111 million.

And in our other latest developments, Israel says the shipment of weapons it intercepted last week included 3,000 pounds of plastic explosives and rockets, and was powerful enough to endanger every city in Israel.

Now it wants the United States to issue a stronger condemnation of the Palestinian Authority, which Israel says is behind the shipment, a claim the Palestinian Authority strongly denies.

President Bush today promoted a sweeping education bill, signing it into law at a public school in Ohio. Among other things, the bill requires new yearly reading and math tests. It also allows parents to pull their kids from failing schools.

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice, at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com