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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Did 9-11 Hijackers Have Help on the Ground?; Officials in Singapore Bust Alleged al Qaeda Plot; Look Back at American Mission in Somalia

Aired January 11, 2002 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANNOUNCER: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: Is there a link? Who would need an aviation radio near the World Trade Center on September 11th?

A clue in the rubble of an al Qaeda hideout in Afghanistan. Is there another plot to kill Americans?

Plus, an update on the possible plot against the president's brother.

Transported in chains, detainees reach their new homes: Outdoor cages at a U.S. base in Cuba.

And we'll look back at a daring mission in another overseas conflict. A disaster, or a lesson in courage? Joining us, Mark Bowden, best-selling author of "Black Hawk Down" and the men behind the gripping new film, producer Jerry Bruckheimer and director Ridley Scott.

JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Judy Woodruff, in for Wolf Blitzer. Question: Did the hijackers of September 11th have help on the ground? Today, a piece of that puzzle that raises new questions. First, we have the latest developments.

Officials in Singapore have busted an alleged al Qaeda plot aimed at the U.S. Navy presence there. U.S. officials say the plot included plans to attack U.S. Navy ships, Navy personnel and night spots visited by sailors. A live report from the Pentagon is coming up.

The first group of al Qaeda and Taliban captives has arrived at a U.S. Naval base in Cuba from Afghanistan. The 20 detainees will be kept in outdoor cells at the base at Guantanamo Bay.

An Egyptian man has been charged with lying to FBI agents investigating the September terror attacks. A handheld aviation radio was found in the man's New York hotel room after the attacks. We'll have a live report on that in a moment.

A new revelation in the Enron investigation: the president of the energy giant called a top Treasury Department official several times last year before the company's collapse in December. The calls were made as Enron was negotiating with bankers for a credit extension that was needed to avoid bankruptcy.

And there's a new development in the hunt for terrorists involved in the September 11th attacks. Federal authorities have charged an Egyptian man with making false statements to the FBI about an aviation radio that was found in a hotel near the World Trade Center. CNN's Deborah Feyerick was in New York in the courtroom today. She was covering that story. Hello again, Deborah.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Judy. The big question raised by this complaint is, was Abdallah Higazy, the guy on the ground, helping the hijackers zoom in on their target, the World Trade Center? Higazy was on the 51st floor of the Millennium Hotel on September 11th when the planes struck. He evacuated that building like hundreds of others, but he left behind a radio, a pilot's radio, a passport and a Koran his safe.

Now, Higazy was here on a student visa. He has been taking classes at Polytechnic University in Brooklyn. He is here on a scholarship. One of the addresses he listed in case anybody needed to get in touch with him was for the United Nations. Apparently his father worked with the diplomatic corps. He may have even spent some time in Washington. The United Nations tells us that right now they don't have anyone listed by that name.

Now, as far as the charges of false statements, prosecutors say that, first Higazy denied that he owned the pilot's radio, but then he admitted it. In addition, he also gave three different reasons as to why he was holding on to that radio. Higazy was a member of the Egyptian Air Corps, and he said that he did train how to repair pilots' radios, these pilots radios, again, to be used to communicate with the plane, either from the ground, or to also monitor conversations taking place between different planes. That is the big question.

Prosecutors say that this could be a potentially quite significant part of the terrorism investigation. His lawyer, however, continues to deny that that radio belonged to Higazy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT DUNN, ATTY. FOR ABDALLAH HIGAZY: ... continuously. They never called him. They did called the hotel and they said, oh, yes, yes, you can come in. Why don't you come in on this date and we'll be able to give you your belongings.

He goes there, he's presented with a list of items -- "sir, you know, for security purposes we have to have you sign for receipt of your property." And he reviews the list in question and he says, wait a minute, what's this? I don't recognize this item. He was then asked to come into the back room and he was at that point interrogated by agents from the FBI.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FEYERICK: So there is discrepancy as to whether in fact this was Higazy's radio or not. He did go to collect his belongings, and that's when he was taken into custody as a material witness. He is now being held without bail. The judge denied that today, saying while this may turn into nothing, it could also turn into something big -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Deborah Feyerick, joining us from Manhattan. Thank you, Deborah.

And joining us now to talk about these pilot radios and just how they work is Leonard Harris. He is a commercial pilot, and he's also the owner of a pilot supply store. Mr. Harris, first of all, tell us how does the radio work?

LEONARD HARRIS, COMMERCIAL PILOT: Well, it's just a common 60- channel VHF radio, available for all the aviation frequencies. It has on and off switch, a scroll switch....

(AUDIO GAP)

WOODRUFF: I'm sorry, Mr. Harris, I'm having a hard time hearing you.

HARRIS: I'm sorry.

WOODRUFF: I just wanted to make sure I was hearing you and you were hearing me. I think you trailed off there at the end. Now, this is used to talk to -- someone on the ground could talk to a pilot, in essence.

HARRIS: In essence, you can use that. Mainly, the reason for these radios is they're backup radios to the electronic -- the big radios that are on general aviation aircraft. They are electrical, and they are prone, in certain instances, to fail. And these are the backups, these are the radios that pilots carry in their flight bags to back up the main radio on the general aviation aircraft, so they've got an emergency radio.

WOODRUFF: Now, put yourself in the situation that, presumably, this man was in on September the 11th. How would someone near the Trade Center know what frequency to tune into, if he were trying to communicate with someone on one of these passenger planes?

HARRIS: Well, with 760 available frequencies, it would have to be a prearranged frequency for them to know which ones to meet on, if that would answer your question.

WOODRUFF: Yes, and, tell us, is -- how easy are these to buy? Can just anyone walk into your store and buy one?

HARRIS: Yes, they can. They are licensed by the Federal Communications Commission, and you can walk, if you've got between 400 and $1,000, you can buy a pilots radio.

WOODRUFF: How much do they cost?

HARRIS: Between 400 and $1,000, depending on all the different -- iterations of what you want it to do. WOODRUFF: What would you -- I mean, again, if you're the person on the ground and this is the situation on September the 11th -- clearly, we're doing a lot of speculating here -- what information would someone on the ground be able to provide to someone in that situation, if the hijackers were piloting those planes, which they were?

HARRIS: Well, doing some wild speculating here, it might be advantageous to pilots in the airplane coming in to have a ground contact that could be listening to CNN, or another news program, of what's going on. If they had a tremendous amount -- let's say, six or eight airplanes that were going to do the same thing, it would be possible, knowing a common frequency, to communicate on, that they might be able to communicate and let each other know how it was going.

WOODRUFF: Would, presumably, the hijackers piloting the plane already know about, for example, any other aircraft in the area?

HARRIS: Not necessarily, Judy. I really couldn't answer that.

WOODRUFF: Now, we have been told that the FBI contacted your store recently. Can you tell us anything about that?

HARRIS: Yes, it was just a routine part of an FBI investigation. We happen to be dealers for the particular brand of radio that was found in the hotel room in New York. The FBI called my general manager, Ceci Koh (ph), and asked her if we would check our sales records and see if that particular serial number had been sold in our pilot shop. And we reviewed our computerized records, and we had not sold that particular radio.

WOODRUFF: Should these radios, do you think, given what happened on September 11th, be so easily available from now on?

HARRIS: Well, this is the first instance I've ever heard of one being used, or might have been used. And we have to -- we're doing an awful lot of speculating here. We also have to say that there might have been a legitimate reason for him having that radio, and he didn't use it for anything illegal. So we really don't know.

And my big comment on the request for more rules or more regulations, or more security, whatnot, is, let's not try to legislate sanity here. Let's see what's happening before we try to add on, pile on more rules and regulations.

WOODRUFF: All right, Leonard Harris, we're going to leave it there. You are a commercial pilot and you are also the owner of a pilot supply store. We thank you very much for joining us.

HARRIS: Thank you.

WOODRUFF: Later on this hour we're going to look at recovery at Ground Zero. CNN's Paula Zahn gives us a tour with New York Governor George Pataki.

The hunt for terrorists takes us now to Singapore, where authorities say they have foiled an al Qaeda plot targeting the U.S. Navy. And it was due, in part, to intelligence gathered in Afghanistan. CNN military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, is at the Pentagon, where he has uncovered more. Hello, Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Judy. Well, yes, a videotape recovered by U.S. troops in Afghanistan apparently helped authorities in Singapore foil a plot against U.S. military personnel. This videotape, found by U.S. troops, on it you can hear a terrorist suspect describing a potential target. A shuttle bus, seen there, used by U.S. military personnel regularly to get to a Singapore subway stop.

The tape is chilling insight into how terrorists stalk their prey. Here he notes that the subway station is within easy attacking distance of where the bus stops. He also begins to show a little bit later in the tape a row of bicycles, and shows how the boxes on the back of these bicycles, seen here in a bike rack, would be a perfect place to put explosives.

Today at the Pentagon, they simply said that it was up for Singapore authorities to talk about the effect that the intelligence had had, along with the intelligence they already had. But, clearly, the Pentagon was pleased by the arrest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We do have vessels in the area, we do have people in the area, and so do other countries, coalition countries, and the government of Singapore. There are all kinds of targets that exist in that area. And I think that the government of Singapore has acted with dispatch, and we are very pleased that they have been able to do what they've done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: The Singapore government says eight of the 13 people they're holding actually trained at al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan, sneaking in through Pakistan, and that al Qaeda leaders showed interest in this plot, but for some reason never carried it out. A second fully-developed plan was to attack U.S. warships in the waters of Singapore, as well. That one was also not carried out. And the Pentagon simply says with each one of these arrests, they get more intelligence, that gives them more leads -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: All right, Jamie McIntyre for us from the Pentagon. Thank you, Jamie,

And separately, a possible plot is uncovered here in the United States. The alleged target: the governor of Florida, who is also, as we know, the president's brother. CNN's Mark Potter is following the developments from Miami. Hello again, Mark.

MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Judy. Investigators were alerted to this alleged plot by an inmate in south Florida, who wrote a letter to the governor's office late last month. He told investigators that four Arab men were plotting to kill the governor by driving a van loaded with explosives to Tallahassee, where it would be detonated.

Although investigators say they have to take these allegations seriously, Many doubt the informant's credibility. He failed a number of lie detector tests.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM MOORE, FLA. DEPT. OF LAW ENFORCEMENT: Let me be clear here. No information from those interviews or from any other means relative to explosives in Tallahassee or relative to the threat against the governor have been substantiated.

POTTER (voice-over): But a development in Fort Lauderdale did catch the investigators' attention. The informant told them be on the lookout for a particular van. It was found Thursday afternoon, and the area was cordoned off so a bomb squad could investigate. No explosives were found, but sources say bomb-sniffing dogs did alert to some kind of residue. And the van was towed away for further investigation.

Later Thursday night, police stopped and questioned one of the four men named by the informant, but then released him. Two men were detained by the immigration service, but no one has been charged in connection with the alleged plot.

MOORE: These individuals who, the source, the inmate, has alleged to be involved in this threat, they may very well be innocent.

POTTER: Governor Bush said he has not changed his schedule, and noted that the time for the alleged attacked seemed to have come and gone.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: I think today was the day that the bad news was supposed to happen, and here were are, 3:00. I don't think it's going to happen, so, life goes on.

POTTER: At the Florida capital, security is a little tighter now, with longer lines at checkpoints and more officers on duty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Now, investigators say they have talked to the four men named by the informant, and some of them are cooperating. The biggest challenge facing the authorities is determining whether the inmate's story is true, or a fabricated attempt to cut a deal with authorities for reduced jail time -- Judy.

WOODRUFF: Some story. Mark Potter, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

And ahead this hour, a movie about a searing moment in U.S. military history. "Black Hawk Down" opens next week. How close does art imitate what really happened? The producer, the director and the author of the book all join us at the half-hour.

Also ahead, Enron fallout on Capitol Hill. How politically radioactive is the oil trader's (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

And next, quality may be job one at Ford, but how many people will be left on the job, as the automaker cuts the payroll?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: Today's news wire focuses on the U.S. economy. Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan says the worst may be over. There are signs the economy is emerging from recession, but he says, he warns it is still at risk. Speaking in San Francisco, Greenspan said weak profits and restrained consumer spending could hamper a quick recovery.

The Ford Motor Company is responding to hard times. Today the automaker announced a massive restructuring plan. It is cutting 35,000 jobs, 22,000 of them in North America. It is shutting down five plants and its retiring four popular name plates: the Mercury Cougar, the Mercury Villager, the Lincoln Continental and the Ford Escort. That news, of course, is meeting with mixed reaction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BOB LAPOINT, PRESIDENT, UAW: They did not accept the announcement very well. They felt that they put all they can put into this block, and yet they got shafted by Ford Motor Company in Detroit, by rendering such a harsh decision as for a (UNINTELLIGIBLE) this plant here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WOODRUFF: You can hear from Ford's president and COO on "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" at top of the hour, 6:00 p.m. Eastern, 3:00 Pacific.

And there is another development in the investigation into on the Enron corporation. According to Bush administration officials, the energy giant tried to get help from the Treasury Department as it struggled to stop its collapse into bankruptcy. Joining us now with this and with other developments, CNN Congressional correspondent, Jonathan Karl. This has all been moving so fast, it's hard to keep up with it, Jonathan. But the Hill is not waiting to react.

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Oh, it's incredible, Judy. This is the return of what some people used to call the scandal industrial complex, although the roles are reversed here a little bit. Of course, now it's the Democrats primarily asking the questions. Six committees in the Senate holding hearings on this question, two in the House -- a total of eight committees and subcommittees holding hearings. And 51 subpoenas went out today, all to the executives of either Enron, or Arthur Andersen, its consulting firm. Executives and directors, by the way, including Phil Gramm's wife, Wendy Gramm, who used to be on the board of directors of the Enron corporation.

And, Judy, this is all happening to a company that spread the wealth aggressively on Capitol Hill. Of course, Enron was one of the top donors. If you take a look right now, we've got a look at the top Republican donors on this. The top contributors, there you see Kay Bailey Hutchison, No. 1 Texas Republican, and right behind her, Phil Gramm -- I'm sorry, this is the top Senate contributors. Democrat Chuck Schumer -- Democrats got a lot of the Enron money as well.

Switch over to the House of Representatives and you'll see the top donors in the House include Democrat Ken Bentsen and also, a familiar name, another Texas Republican, Tom DeLay. But all that money is not going to help Enron a lot, as you see. Eight committees looking into this quite aggressively.

WOODRUFF: Right now at this point, Jon, just to be clear, they're going after -- they want more information from Enron itself, from its executives, from the auditing company, Arthur Andersen. What about from the Bush administration? Is much of the focus yet on it?

KARL: So far the official focus is on company, not on the Bush administration. But Henry Waxman, prominent Democrat in the House of Representatives, who sits on two potential committees that are involved here, has been very aggressive looking at the political angle of this. He has just sent a letter today to the administration, to Don Evans and to Paul O'Neill, the two secretaries that we know had contact with Enron during the last months. He wants more information from the administration about just what those two cabinet secretaries had to say to Enron.

WOODRUFF: All right, Jonathan Karl, busy day at the Capitol. Thank you very much, we appreciate it.

Well, at the heart of Enron's troubles are its books. Yesterday we learned that Arthur Andersen, the accounting firm that was hired to review Enron's finances, destroyed several documents related to the audit. Joining us now to talk about this development is Arthur Bowman. He is the editor "Bowman's Accounting Report." Arthur Bowman, is there a good and logical reason why an accounting firm would destroy a large number of documents at that stage in the process?

ARTHUR BOWMAN, "BOWMAN'S ACCOUNTING REPORT": Frankly, that's hard to understand. Most firms have document control policies. They generally say they will keep all the documents in place for three to four years and then, after that period, they'll destroy the documents, or after they lose a client. But at this point, in an audit, especially knowing that the SEC was looking into Enron, this is kind of hard to understand.

WOODRUFF: Based on what you've read, are you getting any sense of who it was at Arthur -- let me put it this way: is there any question that the destruction was done by Arthur Andersen employees, or could it have been done by people at Enron? Or is that possible to know?

BOWMAN: From what I know, the destruction was done by Arthur Andersen employees. I don't think anyone at Enron would have had access to these documents.

WOODRUFF: Explain to us what the relationship was, between Arthur Andersen and Enron. We know they had a pretty large contract to do Enron's books. What does that mean?

BOWMAN: Well, Andersen was hired to audit the company's financial statements, according to certain rules, the general accounting -- general accepted accounting standards and principles. And that is something that every public company has to do. Arthur Andersen was paid $25 million for its audit this past fiscal year. In addition, Andersen was paid $27 million for consulting services, and that is something that has concerned the SEC and Congress. And that's something that I think they'll be looking into in the next few months.

WOODRUFF: Is that typical?

BOWMAN: The audit fees and consulting fees -- yes, it is typical for an audit firm to do consulting work for its client. In the past year, there were rules passed on the SEC level that, in the proxy statements, public companies have to state how much they pay their auditor for the auditing and how much they have paid for consulting services. Some firms have a philosophy that they can do a better audit if they do consulting services and understand more about the company. And Andersen is one of those firms.

WOODRUFF: But just to underline my first question to you, in your experience, it's not typical for an auditing company to destroy documents at that stage, and given the circumstances.

BOWMAN: I'm stunned. I was stunned when I heard this. I've never heard of this happening before, and I have been a part of this industry for 22 years.

WOODRUFF: All right, well, Arthur Bowman, who is the editor of "Bowman's Accounting Report," we thank you very much for joining us.

BOWMAN: Sure.

WOODRUFF: We appreciate it.

BOWMAN: Thank you.

WOODRUFF: And up ahead, four months after the fact, our Paula Zahn takes a closer look at Ground Zero with New York's Governor George Pataki.

And, from deadly combat to the big screen, how closely does art imitate the tragic events of U.S. servicemen in combat?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: Updating you now on the latest developments. An Egyptian man has been charged with lying to FBI agents investigating the September 11th attacks. That day, Abdallah Higazy was evacuated from his hotel room, which overlooked the World Trade Center. Authorities say that he later denied knowing anything about a handheld radio capable of contacting airplane pilots. That radio, found in his hotel room safe.

Afghan war detainees are being processed at the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. This is exclusive CNN video of their arrival just a short time ago, a few hours ago. They are the first of what's expected to be hundreds of captives held at the detention center in Cuba.

And you can add another stop to Secretary of State Colin Powell's itinerary. The State Department says that he will visit Afghanistan next week, during his trip to southern Asia. He also plans to travel to India and Pakistan.

The Palestinian Authority has ordered at least three of its officials to be detained for questioning in connection with the arms shipment intercepted last week by Israel. One official is already in custody. He is the man in charge of administration and finance for Palestinian security.

For those of you who have not seen it yet, "Black Hawk Down" is the new movie about the U.S. military mission in Somalia, in 1993. This Hollywood production is based on the best-selling book with the same title. In a moment, we're going to speak to the film's producer and its director, and to the author of the book. But first, a little background.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): October 3, 1993, U.S. Army Rangers swoop in on Mogadishu's crowded central market on a snatch-and-grab mission. Their target: warlord Mohammed Farah Aidid's top lieutenants. A large a crowd of Somalis gather. Aidid's men are taken. Fighting breaks out. A Black Hawk helicopter is shot down by a rocket-propelled grenade. The bodies of three Americans are dragged through the streets by the angry mob.

When the U.S. troops make it back to base, 18 are dead, most from the top secret Delta Force; 73 are injured. Soon after, President Clinton withdraws all U.S. forces from Somalia. To U.S. enemies, the American pullout was a sign of weakness. Osama bin Laden, whose Islamic militants had trained Somali militiamen how to shoot down helicopters, later told ABC that Mogadishu convinced him the U.S. was a paper tiger.

Quote: "We have seen in the last decade the decline of the American government and the weakness of the American soldier, who is ready to wage cold wars and unprepared to fight long wars. They can run in less than 24 hours. And this was also repeated in Somalia."

But a new film based on author Mark Bowden's acclaimed 1997 book, "Black Hawk Down," casts what happened in a very different light, not weakness but strength in the face of overwhelming odds and extraordinary courage.

Production of the film began long before September 11, which makes the timing of its release all the more remarkable. U.S. troops are once again fighting and sometimes dying far from home. This time, the mission is of course much clearer and the nation's resolve to see it through to the end much stronger.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WOODRUFF: And joining us now to talk about the movie, the Black Hawk mission and the way Hollywood tells it, the producer of the movie "Black Hawk Down," Jerry Bruckheimer, the movie's director, Ridley Scott, and the author of the book, Mark Bowden.

WOODRUFF: Gentlemen, thank you, all three.

And I want to begin with the author, Mr. Bowden. To what extent is this film an accurate reflection of what you wrote?

MARK BOWDEN, AUTHOR, "BLACK HAWK DOWN": I think it is extraordinarily accurate, Judy. I'm amazed at how faithful the movie is to the book.

Virtually everything that you see in the film is taken either directly from the book or some of it really from research that Jerry and Ridley did on their own with some of the men who were actually there. They had technical advisers on the set every day during shooting who were instrumental players during the battle. So they had the best of advice.

And they chose, I'm happy to say, to make a film that reflects both the content and the spirit, I think, of my book.

WOODRUFF: Jerry Bruckheimer, what did you want to get across with this film?

JERRY BRUCKHEIMER, PRODUCER: It's about bravery and courage and commitment. These young men are not paid a lot of money. They are fighting on foreign soil.

And it is amazing what they put up with against overwhelming odds. And yet they are there to protect the man next to them and to protect their country and protect our shores. I mean, they didn't want to be in Somalia. They would much rather be back home. But there they are fighting for us.

WOODRUFF: And, Ridley Scott, as the director, was that something that, for you, was easy to do or not?

RIDLEY SCOTT, DIRECTOR: I've been doing it for quite a long time, so the actual process of doing and filming is probably to do with the team and the heads of department you choose to have around you.

So, from the point of making it, it was relatively straightforward. It was certainly very exciting. The hardest thing to do is always getting the script in order before you actually move forward, because the script is the blueprint. It becomes an instruction book for everybody in the unit.

WOODRUFF: I want to ask all three of you to stay with us just a moment, because we want to show another clip of the movie when that helicopter came down. We want to show you show this to our viewers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BLACK HAWK DOWN")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Three guys without RPGs coming up on your side now!

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: This is 61! We are hit!

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Stay with it!

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Six-one, going down.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Six-one is going down. He is hit. He is hit.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Six-one going down.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Six-one is going down. He's hit.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Six-one is going down.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Six-one is hit; 61 is going down.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Going down. Hold on! Hold on!

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: We've got a Black Hawk down. We've got a Black Hawk down.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: We've got a Black Hawk down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WOODRUFF: This is such dramatic footage. And I know it is hard to compress the message of one movie into a brief interview.

But, Jerry Bruckheimer, I want to ask you about this question that has been raised. And that is, for many Americans and for the Clinton administration, the experience in Somalia was a negative one. America lost 18 soldiers there and yet your movie portrays these people as heroes. How do you reconcile the two views of what took place in Somalia?

BRUCKHEIMER: Well, it was called a failure by the media. The military doesn't look at it that way. They went in to get two advisers to warlord Mohamed Aidid. That was their mission. They accomplished their mission. They killed a thousand of the enemy and brought back the two warlords.

And, in the process, they lost 19 men. If we put that in today's world, and we captured two of bin Laden's key advisers, lost 19 men, and killed a thousand of the al Qaeda, it would be a tragedy we lost the 19 men. But, again, it would show how powerful our military is in getting the man they were supposed to get, or the two men they were supposed to get.

WOODRUFF: Mark Bowden, do you see any difficulty in reconciling these two views of what happened?

BOWDEN: None at all, Judy.

The failure in Somalia was a political failure. We had broader political goals when we went in there. We wanted to, first of all, end the famine. And then an effort was being made to create a stable coalition government there so that things wouldn't just revert back to civil war.

And there is no question that the Battle of Mogadishu on October 3 ended that political mission. Basically, President Clinton decided to call it off. And we left without accomplishing our goals. But then to bleed that interpretation of the political failure into what these particular men did on that day -- they were given a difficult and dangerous assignment. They went out. They accomplished it. They accomplished it at great cost.

They lost 18 of their fellows -- 19. And they came back with the two people they went out to get. So I think that you have to distinguish between the sacrifices and the accomplishment of these men in uniform and the larger political failure that sort of formed the context for it.

WOODRUFF: Ridley Scott, as the movie's director, how much cooperation did you get from the U.S. military as you were making this?

SCOTT: They wanted the book to be made, so that was a good starting block. But, like all institutions, they want to be represented in the right way.

And, therefore, there was a fairly continuous process of negotiation, really almost page by page, as the screenplay unfolded. And I have been there before and dealt with the Pentagon and the DOD, as has Jerry, and Jerry more often than I have. And, therefore, the whole -- you know, it sounds ominous when you are negotiating with the Pentagon, but, actually, they are very, very, very user-friendly as far as the moviemaking goes, providing what you are actually trying to do is represent the militia in the right and proper light.

And I think the Army wanted this film to be made, because, if it hadn't been made, there would be no closure for what occurred in 1993 for those guys, because it was a piece of -- in fact, I saw it on CNN in 1993. so I saw it on CNN. It was like a piece of information opening and closing, and then it was swept under the carpet. And everybody -- it became yesterday's news very quickly, I think, except for the guys who were involved and their buddies who died.

And, therefore, I think it became enabling me and us, actually, when we made this movie, as out of respect to what occurred and out of respect for what those guys do for us today.

WOODRUFF: Well, we want all three of you to stay with us. We are going to take a break. But when we come back, among other things, I want to ask you: Does Hollywood have an obligation to be patriotic in its work?

We will be right back with that and more. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BLACK HAWK DOWN")

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: You all right? You OK?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Yes. I can hear bells...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WOODRUFF: You're looking at a scene from the movie "Black Hawk Down". It is out in limited release right now. It premieres next week around the country.

And now we're continuing our discussion about the movie with producer Jerry Bruckheimer, the director, Ridley Scott, and the author, Mark Bowden.

Jerry Bruckheimer, where did you do the filming?

BRUCKHEIMER: We did it in Morocco in Rabat, which is the financial capital of the city. And it is a great place to film. And we used a small suburb. It was like lower-middle class called Saleh (ph). And there was a housing development that was partially built. And the man who built it ran out of money. So that became our set. So we kind of closed off the streets around it and kind of lived there from March until the beginning of July.

WOODRUFF: How much of an obligation, Jerry Bruckheimer, did you -- do you and others in Hollywood, do you think, feel to be patriotic, particularly at a time like this?

BRUCKHEIMER: Well, I think it is a very difficult time. We are at war. I would love to lift the spirits of our country, if we possibly can. But it all comes down to the story, because an audience will see through the kind of patriotic fervor unless it's honest and true. And it comes down to what we are presented with.

If a great story came out of Afghanistan, something that was unique and different I hadn't seen before, I would love to make it. But they haven't come out yet. But we'll see.

WOODRUFF: Ridley Scott, is Hollywood under some special set of rules here, do you think, to reflect the mood and the spirit of America?

SCOTT: It -- Hollywood puts out a huge range of movies from all aspects. And I think it really boils down to who the filmmakers are, and how discerning they are, and how close they are in terms of the work they want to do as to how close that work is to the truth.

And I try and do that. And, therefore, as Jerry says, he said you can't -- I think the audiences have a habit of sensing or smelling out the fact that if you are trying to sell them a bill of goods. And I think they have a habit of actually respecting the truth. If you can give them the truth, that usually strikes ground in a good way. WOODRUFF: Mark Bowden, why did you write this book in the first place?

BOWDEN: Well, I was struck, Judy, by the images of dead American soldiers being dragged through the streets that I saw on television, as every other American did.

WOODRUFF: And that is the image most Americans have in their minds of Somalia.

BOWDEN: It is. And I think that left me both angry, as almost anybody would be. I think my only understanding of why we were in Somalia was that we had gone to feed starving people. And I found it incomprehensible that we could go on a humanitarian mission and end up in a situation where, clearly, mobs of people are hating Americans to the extent that they are dragging dead American soldiers through the streets.

So that peaked certainly my journalistic curiosity. And I was fortunate to work for a newspaper, "The Philadelphia Inquirer," which gives me the backing and the support to go out and try to find answers to those questions.

WOODRUFF: Well, it is certainly particularly timely right now.

And we want to thank you, Mark Bowden, the author of the book "Black Hawk Down," Jerry Bruckheimer, the producer, Ridley Scott, the director. Gentlemen, thank you, all three. We appreciate so much your coming by to talk to us.

BRUCKHEIMER: Thanks, Judy.

BOWDEN: Thank you, Judy.

WOODRUFF: Thank you.

And to our viewers, we want to ask you be sure to watch "CNN PRESENTS"' special report on the "Black Hawk Down" incident on January the 20th. That is at 7:00 and 11:00 p.m. Eastern.

Coming up next: Suspense is building near Boston. Will a hockey player's father go free or go to jail? When we return: awaiting a verdict. And later, the World Trade Center site four months later: Paula Zahn's walking tour with New York Governor George Pataki.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: Checking these stories on today's "Newswire": The jury is still out on Thomas Junta. A little before 6:00 Eastern, deliberations continue for a second day in the so-called hockey dad trial in Massachusetts. Junta is charged with manslaughter in the beating death of another father at a youth hockey practice.

The FBI today placed Christian Michael Longo on its 10 most wanted fugitives list. Authorities say they believe Longo killed his wife and three children last month and dropped their bodies in the waters off the Oregon coast.

In nearby Washington state, a funeral with full honors for Sergeant Nathan Ross Chapman: He was the first U.S. soldier to be killed by hostile fire in Afghanistan. Friends and relatives remembered the father of two as a man who lived by the Green Berets' mantra: "Stand up and do something."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAJ. JOHN MARAIA, U.S. ARMY: So, I was not surprised to hear that when the call went out for volunteers, Nate said, "Send me." Those of us who've known Nate have lost a lot. We have lost a comrade and a friend. But those who never had a chance to get to know him have lost much, much more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOODRUFF: You are looking at live pictures of the World Trade Center site. It has been four months to the day since those deadly terrorist attacks there. The official death toll now stands at 2,893. Today, rescue workers recovered two more bodies from the site, as the work there continues.

Our Paula Zahn was there earlier touring the site with New York governor's, George Pataki. Here's what was said.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PAULA ZAHN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Four months ago today, the world witnessed the worst terrorist act we have ever seen. Today, I join you from the family viewing stand. This is where family members come to look out at ground zero as they continue to work through their shock, their pain, and the process of trying to rebuild their lives.

And I am joined now by Governor Pataki of New York, who has made dozens of trips to this site over the last four months.

I know it doesn't get any easier each time you come here, but what are your thoughts today as we mark this four-month period?

GOV. GEORGE PATAKI (R), NEW YORK: You know, Paula, it is always different when you are actually here. When I crisscross the city or the state, you feel such tremendous confidence and optimism and such spirit. But even four months later, when you actually come to ground zero, you can't help but sense the sadness and the tremendous sense of loss.

And that is why this is a very special place, a very hallowed ground. And I don't think any Americans will ever forget what happened here.

ZAHN: Governor, you have had a chance to talk with many of the men and women who have to come here every day. Is there one particular story that has stayed with you? PATAKI: Yesterday, I was with two of the workers. One is an iron worker has been here every day since September 11. He just feels that need to be here to help with the process. And the other one is a firefighter who has been here every day except one day. And these are very difficult conditions. And to think of that sacrifice -- really, is what it is -- out of love for the people who died here, it is inspirational.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WOODRUFF: We apologize for interrupting that report.

(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)

WOODRUFF: For now, I'm Judy Woodruff in Washington. CNN's coverage of "America's New War" continues with "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE," which begins right now.

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