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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Prisoners Arrive in Cuba; Terrorist Plot Against United States Foiled in Singapore

Aired January 11, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: After a long journey from Afghanistan in shackles, a new home at Guantanamo Bay in cages.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: They will be handled in the right way. They will be handled not as prisoners of war, because they're not, but as unlawful combatants.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: A plot against Americans foiled in Singapore. Crucial intelligence uncovered in Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUMSFELD: And the more pieces we get, the more it begins to reveal a story of the al Qaeda terrorist network, its capabilities, its reach.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: We'll go live to the Pentagon, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. And I'll speak live with Retired General George Joulwan, Former NATO Supreme Commander; James Steinberg, Former Deputy National Security Adviser; and Ken Adelman, of Defensecentral.com as we go into the THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening, I'm Jeanne Meserve reporting tonight from Washington. Wolf Blitzer is off.

A rough journey and rough accommodations. The first 20 detainees from the war in Afghanistan have arrived at their new address: chain- linked cages at a U.S. base in Cuba. CNN's Bob Franken will join us from Guantanamo Bay shortly. But, first, a look at another developing story.

The Pentagon suggests it is coming up with a treasure trove of intelligence in Afghanistan, and officials say that has helped foil a terror plot in far off Singapore. CNN military correspondent Jamie McIntyre has more from the Pentagon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On this videotape found by U.S. troops in Afghanistan, a terrorist suspect is heard describing a potential target. A shuttle bus used regularly by U.S. military personnel to get to a Singapore subway stop.

HASHIM BIN ABAS: And this is one of the buses, one of the regular buses that carry the military personnel from Sembawang to Yishun MRT station.

MCINTYRE: The tape is a chilling insight into how terrorists stalk their prey. Here, a man identified as Hashim Bin Abas notes that boxes commonly carried on bicycles in Singapore could conceal deadly explosives.

ABAS: You will notice some of the boxes that are placed on the motorcycles, these are the same type of boxes which we intend to use.

MCINTYRE: The videotape was just one piece of intelligence that led Singapore authorities to round up more than a dozen men with clear ties to Osama bin Laden's terrorist network. At the Pentagon, officials said the break underscores the importance of the intelligence-gathering mission of U.S. troops.

RUMSFELD: Almost every arrest leads to additional pieces of information. It may be scraps of information in their pockets, it may be things they say. It may be other connections that occur.

MCINTYRE: A Singapore government statement alleges that 8 of 13 suspects now in custody trained in al Qaeda camps in Afghanistan by sneaking in through Pakistan. In fact, it says that al Qaeda leaders showed interest in the attack plans, which were described as developed and ready for action. But that for reasons not known, it was never carried out.

A second plan called for an attack on U.S. Navy ships in the waters of Singapore, with a kill zone designated on a confiscated defense ministry map.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (on camera): The 13 men now being held in Singapore are all said to be members of a terrorist organization known as the Islamic Group, with cells in Indonesia and some leaders in Malaysia. In fact, the reputed chief of the group is now at large and being sought by Indonesian and Malaysian police -- Jeanne.

MESERVE: Jamie, just have pivotal was that videotape in unraveling this plot?

MCINTYRE: Well, it's not clear, because the U.S. did have other intelligence, even before this tape was discovered in a safe house in Afghanistan by U.S. troops. But it clearly shows exactly what the terrorists had in mind in attacking this shuttle bus and in other evidence, the ships in the harbor. So U.S. officials say they were aware of the threat before then, but this videotape may have helped knock over some of the dominoes as they went through and picked up some of these people in Singapore.

MESERVE: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks.

And U.S. forces checked the perimeter of the Kandahar Airport today looking for clues about yesterday's hostile fire. CNN's Bill Hemmer is in Kandahar with details on that and other events on the ground there -- Bill.

BILL HEMMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jeanne, good morning from Kandahar. The special forces here in the Marines not messing around with this one. In fact, a few hours ago we observed about half a dozen humvees loaded up, and some more LAVs -- light-armed vehicles -- taking out a night patrol. Normally, this would not be considered very significant. However, given the events of Thursday night here in Kandahar, they continue to look for anyone who might be trying to probe the perimeter or penetrators trying to gain access or threaten this base here.

On Friday, we went to that perimeter, talked with several Marines inside their fighting holes. Many of them tell us that the events of Thursday happened very fast. The fire fight, they say, lasted anywhere between 10 and 12 minutes. Bullets flying over their heads, they say. Sometimes they describe them thumping into sandbags. No one was killed or injured on the U.S. side. In fact, on Friday, when special forces went out to inspect the area they say they found no one again in the perimeter here in Kandahar.

Meanwhile, about 45 miles from here in the town of Spin Boldak, it rides right along the border with Pakistan, we now have confirmed that U.S. special forces are working in connection with Afghan locals there, trying to flush out the strong possibility of al Qaeda fighters and Taliban fighters either reassembling in an area or trying to resupply by way of Pakistan. It's been long suspected that this is a hotbed for Islamic support. In fact, one Marine official said, "It is a hotbed. We've been watching it for some time." In fact, that border was shut down, Jeanne, on Friday to help gain control -- Jeanne.

MESERVE: Bill, news that Secretary of State Colin Powell is heading to the region. Fill us in on that.

HEMMER: Yeah, we anticipate Colin Powell to be actually in country in Afghanistan sometime next week. Travel arrangements not made available just yet. Obviously, for security reasons there. One would anticipate, Jeanne, his visit with Hamid Karzai, the interim government leader here in Kabul. He may come here to Kandahar.

I must stress, though, that there has been no high-ranking official visiting U.S. troops here. In fact, a lot of them say they'd love to see the president come out. But, clearly, there are concerns about security. In addition, Colin Powell expected to have meetings in Pakistan and India as well before heading on to Tokyo, Japan for more talks about the future government and the future course for this country -- Jeanne.

MESERVE: Bill, thanks. And Bill Hemmer will have more at the top of the hour in his special report live from Afghanistan.

As special forces take control from an Afghan warlord, how reliable are local allies in the war on terrorism. Joining me now in THE WAR ROOM Ken Adelman, former U.S. arms director, now a Pentagon adviser and a host of Defensecentral.com. Former NATO Supreme Commander Retired General George Joulwan, and James Steinberg, of the Brookings Institution, Deputy National Security Adviser in the Clinton White House. And remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to cnn.com/wolf.

Gentlemen, thank you all for joining here. Let's talk about this Spin Boldak situation first if we could. How reliable are these local warlords as allies? There have even been reports that U.S. special forces have had to take control from some of them in that area.

JAMES STEINBERG, FMR. DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, Jeanne, this is a big problem for the United States. Although we have great working relationships with the formal interim government that's under Mr. Karzai, he doesn't have full control around the country. There are a lot of conflicting interests, individuals who have a stake in keeping their own power. And a lot of them have ties to the Taliban. Particularly in this area around the Pakistan border, there hasn't been a lot of control. There's been a lot of concern not only about violence, but criminality and the like. And so it's going to be a long-term prospect to bring security there.

MESERVE: General, what is this going to mean for U.S. forces in Afghanistan?

GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN (RET.), FMR. NATO SUPREME COMMANDER: Well, first of all, we have to make sure that there's a clear relationship between the troops on the ground and the -- not only the interim government, but all these different tribes that are in the region. When you go into a fight you want to impose your will on the enemy. We do that with land forces, primarily. We don't have a lot of land forces there. So we're relying on our relationship with the opposition forces.

So what's going to have to happen is clarity here about the relationship between our military force on the ground and these not only interim government, but these warlords out in the -- in the different parts of Afghanistan.

MESERVE: And, Ken Adelman, just how messy can this get?

KEN ADELMAN, DEFENSECENTRAL.COM: Well, it can get pretty messy. That's why I'm personally for turning all this over to the peacekeeping force under the British, to tell you the truth. Having the American military get out of the situation with the right to come back to Afghanistan any time there's a big need for our military power.

I see a different kind of function for the peacekeeping operation dealing with all these warlords, which is a real pain in the neck all the time. And the kind of operation that we did against the Taliban right there. So I would put American forces in the region with the right of return real fast, and let everybody else handle the other side.

MESERVE: And we have a response.

JOULWAN: No, let me be clear. We have not accomplished the mission yet. And to turn this over to the British or whatever other forces coming in, is way premature. What we're finding in Afghanistan, and what you heard, this intelligence that we're building, this profiling, it's going to take time. And that intelligence is crucial.

We have a three-front war going on. One in Afghanistan, one here at home, and the other is this global network. And that intelligence is going to come from Afghanistan, and we need our troops there to do it. And no one else can do it for us.

STEINBERG: Jeanne, the second problem is we -- the international force neither has the -- the number of men that's needed to carry out that kind of mission, nor the mandate. They don't have the authority to go in and deal with a violent situation. They're basically there to try to keep security. But there's a very small number of troops. Even the British, who are the best that are there, are only going to stay for a few months. So unless we take a different approach to that, I think we're going to need a stronger security (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

MESERVE: Ken, you're getting beat up here.

ADELMAN: Yeah, the fact is that he can beat me up all they want, that's fine. When the general says that whoever is there should look for intelligence findings, I agree with him. It doesn't have to be Americans who are looking for something. When you say the mission isn't over yet, in a large sense, you're absolutely right, of course. But, to beat the Taliban, to go after al Qaeda, to do what we can in a military combat situation, I think a lot of that has just been done right now.

Now, if you're saying that the peacekeeping operation -- and Jim said it -- is only going to be there for a few months, you know, come on, any time there's a peacekeeping operation, as the general well knows, this is a military engagement that seems to last forever. Nothing is as permanent as a temporary peacekeeping operation.

MESERVE: General, I want to ask you about this plot in Singapore that's been uncovered against U.S. personnel and Navy ships. Through all this, the Navy kept bringing ships into that harbor for port calls. Was that a wise move?

JOULWAN: It all depends. You have to remember, these...

MESERVE: On what?

JOULWAN: It all depends on the -- on the intelligence you're getting. I don't know how old all of this is, but we have a pretty -- a pretty good idea of the threat situation in an area. What this tells you is that these guys do their homework, these terrorists. They're very, very good, and we can't think of them as some rabble running around. They have done this all over the world, and we have to be extremely diligent here as we go forward.

We're not going to stop doing our business in Singapore or elsewhere. We are, hopefully, taking the necessary steps to get the intelligence to protect our forces.

ADELMAN: But, Jeanne, what is really interesting in all of this is that we found all of this going on in Singapore. Now Singapore is a very controlled society. Singapore is not open like the United States; Singapore is not open like Britain or...

MESERVE: So if it's happening there it could be anywhere.

ADELMAN: If it's happening there, it is happening in a lot of pro-western, pro-United States.

JOULWAN: Including right here in the United States, right?

ADELMAN: Oh, it's easier to operate here than in Singapore. So that's the big story out of Singapore, that even in Singapore they can go on this kind of planning to do us enormous damage.

STEINBERG: But the other big story is that we got good cooperation from the Singaporans here. And I think one of the real challenges -- and we've done very well -- is in building the cooperation with other countries. In Southeast Asia, we heard them talking about the Philippines and Indonesia. We really need to build those links because unless we can cooperate with others we can't be everywhere. And it's through those partnerships that we're going to be successful.

JOULWAN: And we can't cut and run in Afghanistan.

MESERVE: You know, I've heard that this is the first case that has been unraveled because of intelligence that was uncovered in Afghanistan. What does that say? Should more have been discovered at this point in time or should we be very satisfied?

(CROSSTALK)

ADELMAN: Well, we know other cases have been. We know other cases have been.

MESERVE: This is the first I think publicly reported, I think.

ADELMAN: Well maybe from the case in al Qaeda. But the fact is, that millennium plot that was going from Canada to do enormous damage at the L.A. International Airport, that certainly was uncovered, and in time to stop something. And I hope other plots have been uncovered like that.

JOULWAN: And we won't know. We won't know. We shouldn't know. I think this is -- but I think you can be assured that other information is becoming available. That's why it's important to really milk this intelligence source we have in Afghanistan, as well as preventing it from becoming a sanctuary again for these terrorist groups. We've taken that away from them now, let's stay long enough to keep it from them.

MESERVE: You mentioned intelligence, these detainees, how much are we likely to get out of these guys?

ADELMAN: Who knows? Who knows? I mean, you know, I don't know how -- how knowledgeable...

MESERVE: They certainly haven't been flashes in the past, have they?

ADELMAN: If al Qaeda's as competent as I think they are, they divide the intelligence very nicely, they're very few people. My putting together of what we can find out about the September 11 plot is that very few people knew what the hell was going on in that.

JOULWAN: Yeah, but Ken, the important thing here is that they'll talk to -- whether it's 200 or 400, and get pieces from different ones. It's fusing that together, putting that together, that's going to be so important.

MESERVE: And when we come back we're going to have a report on those detainees in Guantanamo Bay. Plus, the Philippines and some other hot spots, how long is al Qaeda's reach? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MESERVE: And let's turn back now to the issue of those detainees who have arrived at a makeshift prison facility in Cuba. CNN's Bob Franken filed this report from the U.S. Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We have witnessed today something that cried for cameras to record the event. You're going to have to try and paint a word (ph) picture of the operation which saw the al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners who had been flown from Afghanistan arriving on United States property, so to speak, the Naval base at Guantanamo Bay.

The entire operation took just a little over an hour and a half. Just a little bit before two o'clock. About five minutes before two. The C -- the C-141, it's a big cargo plane called the Star Lifter arrived on the tarmac. It didn't come to the terminal, the area we are. It (UNINTELLIGIBLE) perhaps a half mile down the tarmac. There was massive security; there were about 40 Marines and Navy medics and others who were there with kevlar vests and face masks and shields. They were in a truck that pulled to the plane and pulled up close to the plane.

There were also humvee vehicles either mounted with grenade launchers or machine guns. They were not pointed out the plane, they were a perimeter defense pointed outward. And also out there there was a ship on the water not far away. It took a whole hour before the first of the 20 came off the plane. There were 20 of them; each one came off individually, heavily escorted, of course. All of them wearing fluorescently bright orange jump suits, what appeared to be an orange ski hat. We were, by the way, about 200 yards away.

They had on face masks which appeared to be turquoise, and we think goggles. They were manacled and several of them put up a resistance as they were taken off the plane. On a couple of occasions they had to be brought down to their knees and then lifted up. On many occasions we could hear shouting. Not able to tell if the shouting came from the detainees, as they prefer to call them, or from the Marines and the other security people who were ordering them around.

This process went on and on. Some of the prisoners had limps or had exhibits of other injuries. Some of them had their shoes searched. There was a very methodical, very slow operation. But the actual transfer of these prisoners from the plane to their two buses took just a half hour. And then just a few minutes for those buses, along with the convoy for the security people, to go to a nearby ferry boat which crossed the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Guantanamo Bay to the other part of the island, where they are now being processed at Camp X-ray.

They are going to be interrogated, they are going to be photographed, they are going to be fingerprinted. And then they're going to begin their lives in what many people call cages -- outdoor cells -- eight feet by six feet. Each one of them covered by a wood slab surrounded only by a fence, chain-link fence. So a concrete slab there; they will have a little mat to lie on, and a bucket for personal hygiene. They are going to spend a considerable period of time at this location called Camp X-ray. They are the first 20; they are the ones that were called the real bad guys by the person who's going to be their custodian, the general who's running this operation.

Bob Franken, at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE: And now let's get back to business with our panel. General, I want to ask you, today, the Pentagon referred to these individuals as unlawful combatants rather than prisoners of war. What's the distinction and does it mean the U.S. can be a little bit more forceful during these interrogations?

JOULWAN: I truly believe we will follow the rules, whatever those rules are for four of these individuals. If they are not POWs they are placed in this category, radical terrorist, and we've been at war with them. We will follow the rules. So they'll be treated according to the rules.

MESERVE: What are the rules when it comes to interrogations?

JOULWAN: We will interrogate them -- the idea of bringing them to Guantanamo is to separate them from their country and to get them a little nervous. And, hopefully, they will talk. And we need to get that information. Our cities, our people are in danger. We need to sweat it out of them. I like to use that term. And that's what's going to happen down in Guantanamo, at least hope so.

MESERVE: We just heard Bob Franken describing the conditions, and some people are raising a human cry over that. Is this humane and do you care?

JOULWAN: How come -- how come I don't feel much sympathy for these guys. I just don't. I mean, what they are trying to do to us, what they are trying to do to civilization, what they are trying to do around the world, it generates very little sympathy from me.

MESERVE: Any indication tribunals are going to get underway anytime soon? Apparently, no preparations have been made there.

STEINBERG: We still don't even have, Jeanne, the final rules as to how the tribunals would be conducted or what kinds of crimes would be subject to the tribunals. I think we will see some of these people brought to trial. A lot of them will be interrogated and then sent back in ways that won't pose as much of a danger to us. But I think that's the big fear right now, is how can you let any of these guys loose given their history in the past?

ADELMAN: Because unlike soldiers, where you have somebody taken out and he becomes a non-combatant. And then, you know, according to civilized behavior, they are no longer engaged in this. These are fanatics. So you take them out and they'll just -- you know, like one of those clowns, they'll just bounce back up afterwards, no matter how many times or how hard you hit them down. And then you have to worry about them getting back into the terrorism business. And, as we can see, just a few people who are very determined, very fanatical, can do enormous damage to us.

MESERVE: A lot of talk going on right now about Somalia, about Indonesia, about the Philippines. I've been reading some things recently where some people are saying, "Hey, you've got to pay attention to the really big actors. You have to pay attention to Iraq and to Lebanon, and until you do that, you really aren't tackling the problem." Ken, you're nodding your head.

ADELMAN: Well, yes -- actually, since I've been on this show I've wanted to attack Iraq -- as both of our guests know -- before Christmas. But somehow Christmas came and went and we didn't attack Iraq. I think that...

(CROSSTALK)

MESERVE: So are we missing the point in the entire war?

ADELMAN: Yes, I think we are. The main threat against the United States, against civilization today, comes from Iraq. And the sooner we can do that, the better off we are.

STEINBERG: Jeanne, there's no question that Iraq is dangerous and Saddam Hussein is dangerous. But what we've seen here is that the immediate threat to the United States, or plots like the ones we uncovered in Singapore, we've got to focus on that right now. We've got to build the effort, the international effort, to root out these terrorists wherever we can find them to track these plots down. Yes, we have to worry about Saddam, but he's not the one right now who's trying to kill Americans around the world.

MESERVE: And what about Lebanon?

ADELMAN: But we don't know this. We don't know that.

JOULWAN: Lebanon is key to this; they have terrorists there. But I truly think it's much even greater than Lebanon. We need to get this global intelligence started; we have to identify the network and we have to be able to systematically take it down wherever it is. But let's not bite off more than we can chew. And those that are calling for all kinds of action before we have the resources, before we have the forces to do it, are doing, I think, a disservice.

What you have to do is make sure that when we say something we follow it up. We've talked too much in the past and we haven't acted. And we got to -- we got to act and fire the bullet and make sure it hits the target.

MESERVE: And speaking of talking too much, we're out of time. So thank you gentlemen all for coming in tonight. We appreciate it.

And to check at the latest developments that's ahead, including the verdict in the trial of a man who killed another man after their son's youth hockey practice.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MESERVE: In our latest developments, there's a verdict tonight in the hockey practice fight that left one man dead. A Massachusetts jury found Thomas Junta guilty of involuntary manslaughter a short time ago. Michael Costin died after a July 2000 fight with Junta. The two men fought after a hockey drill their sons were participating in. Junta is scheduled to be sentenced on January 25.

An Egyptian man was denied bail today. He's being held on charges of lying to FBI agents investigating the September 11 terror attacks. Abdallah Higazy told agents he had never seen the hand-held aviation radio found in his room at the Millennium Hilton near the World Trade Center.

The Palestinian Authority has ordered three of its own officials detained for questioning as part of an investigation into the arms shipment intercepted in the Red Sea by the Israelis last week. An adviser to Palestinian authority President Yasser Arafat insists the organization was not involved with that shipment.

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join Wolf Monday at both 5:00 and 7:00 PM Eastern. Until then, thanks a lot for watching. I'm Jeanne Meserve in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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