Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

New Intelligence Found in Afghanistan; Can Next Terror Attack Be Thwarted?

Aired January 17, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: New intelligence from Afghanistan raises new concerns.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The videotapes depict young men delivering what appear to be martyrdom messages from suicide terrorists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Five al Qaeda suspects, whereabouts unknown. The government asks the public for help.

Other suspects are firmly in custody, as the Red Cross pays a visit. Can the next attack be thwarted? What is the next battleground? We'll go live to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and to Mogadishu, Somalia. And I'll speak live with Kelly McCann, a security and anti terrorism consultant, Frank Gaffney, a former Pentagon official, now with the Center for Security Policy and retired General Wesley Clark, the former supreme allied commander of NATO, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

BLITZER: Good evening I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. The Justice Department today released more videotape found in Afghanistan, this time no pictures of Osama bin Laden. Instead the focus on five of his fighters suspected of preparing for suicide terror missions against the United States. Along with the release of the tapes and the photos, an appeal to the public for help.

Our national correspondent Susan Candiotti has been tracking this story all day, she joins us now live with more -- Susan.

SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Wolf.

Authorities found these tapes in the rubble of U.S. bombing raids, and hope the public here in the U.S. and around the world will see someone they recognize.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): They could be anywhere worldwide, they may even be dead, but U.S. officials are taking no chances, releasing videotapes of suspected al Qaeda operatives, allegedly bent on becoming martyrs for Osama bin Laden.

ASHCROFT: The videotapes depict young men delivering what appear to be martyrdom messages from suicide terrorists, trained and prepared to commit future suicide terrorist acts.

CANDIOTTI: Authorities say they won't let the public hear what the men say, insisting analysis is still under way. The tapes were discovered by U.S. forces in Afghanistan, found in the Kabul house of Mohammed Atef, one of bin Laden's top lieutenants killed last November during U.S. bombing raids. The FBI calls the release of the tapes unique, encouraging people around the world to stop these men before any future attack.

ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: We hope that no one hesitates to surface anything that could be of interest to us. The principle is simple: An informed and alert public works.

CANDIOTTI: One of the men on the tapes is seen holding a weapon with writing on the strap.

ASHCROFT: So often, we're accustomed to wanted posters that give you a static view of individuals. This happens to be a superior sort of basis for people to make identification.

CANDIOTTI: Because of technical problems, only freeze frames of two others were made available. One of them: international fugitive Ramzi bin al-Shibh, an unindicted co-conspirator in the case against suspected terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui. Bin al-Shibh failed at least three times to enter the U.S. before the September 11 attacks. Authorities suggest he was probably meant to be on one of the hijacked planes, instead, they say, he helped funnel money to the men.

The tapes may be even more useful in the hands of the public overseas where these suspected terrorists may be hiding.

DAVID ISBY, DEFENSE ANALYST: As bin Laden has demonstrated over the years, those who live by the video, will be perish by the video.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CANDIOTTI: And no reward is being offered at this time, instead authorities are relying on good will as motivation, for finding these suspected terrorists -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Susan Candiotti, thank you very much.

Meanwhile, the international Red Cross is checking up on al Qaeda and Taliban fighters, already in U.S. hands, sending a team to the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba.

Our national correspondent Bob Franken is there, once again he joins us tonight by phone with the latest -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, they arrived a couple hours ago. Very, very brief statement made at airport before they headed to the other side of the island and their eventual inspection of Camp X-ray, which is that new prison camp that has been set up for the prisoners of war, as some call them, others call them detainees. In a brief statement the head of the delegation said, and I am quoting: We will look at treatments, conditions and we will share our findings confidentiality with the detaining authority, which is to say that there's not going to be any public announcement about the results of the survey.

The charges of inhumane treatment have caused the security officials and in Washington to chaffe, so the general who is in charge of the operation here, Brigadier General Michael Leonard came out again to say to reporters, let me repeat his comment: Let me reiterate one thing, we are committed to treating the detainees in a humane matter, consistent with international law. That on the other hand is being balanced by security considerations.

Reporters were allow to go out to Camp X-ray, again today, and from a considerable distance, 100 to 150 yards, take pictures of some of the detainees who were in their orange outfits, their orange jump suits. Not close enough to identify any of their faces and run afoul of some interpretations of international law. At any case, what we see a facility that continues to add eight by eight cubicles, not by eight by six as the military first announced, eight by eight, they are outdoor cells the military calls them. Although, critics call them cages or even kennels. And there are going to be a total by the end of month of 320 in the facility, they told us. And if necessary, those cubicles could house two prisoners each for a capacity of almost 650. Although, officials here said they really did not want do that.

As for security, they say it has been extremely tight, they say there have been very, very few incidents that the detainees are getting good medical care. But that if there are security concerns that override medical care, as one put it, then medical care will have to be set aside.

BLITZER: Bob Franken, one again on Guantanamo Bay, thank you very much.

The Pentagon, meanwhile, has said it doesn't want Somalia to become a haven for al Qaeda fighters on the run, so it's keeping an eye on that strife-torn country. Our Christiane Amanpour is already there, she's following events in Mogadishu.

First of all, Christiane, do people where you are expect Somalia to be the next U.S. target?

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are extremely concerned and worried, if not panicked that might be the case. They have heard all the reports, although they haven't seen them, of U.S. warships patrolling the long Somali coast and of aircraft patrolling the skies over head. I must say we haven't heard anything in the week that we have been here.

Nonetheless, their newspapers, their tea houses, their radio and television -- basically the topic of conversation is mostly about what might happen here. And of course, they are coming to us. We are about the only visible presence of western -- western presence here. And a lot of people come to us and ask us what we know, what we don't know -- might it happen or might it not happen. And they keep telling us that they have no intention and they do not harbor al Qaeda members. That they would never harbor Osama bin Laden, that they would give him you up because they have no interest in harboring somebody, who as foreigner, might bring destruction upon this country. And also they are telling us they want to engage, a more constructively with the United States.

Of course, one of side issues here, is that with the allegations of terrorism, in a country such as this one, which is so riven by factualism, many different warlords accusing others of being pro- terrorist or harboring terrorists as a sort of way of getting a leg up on their rivals. So there's a very confusing situation here on the streets of Mogadishu -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Christiane, I know you have been speaking to a the lot of people over there on the streets of Mogadishu. How much sympathy, if there is much sympathy at all, do you hear for al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden?

AMANPOUR: Well, none at all. We have been talking here in Mogadishu to a lot of people about that very issue. And they are telling us absolutely none at all. Again, they say look, we are much -- the thing here is that clan loyalty and self-interest seriously overrides any desire or ability to protect any kind of foreigners. And down in other parts of Somalia there are many warlords and others, this is a very fractured and divided society, who are trying to vie and curry U.S. favors. Everybody here is saying, that they are against terrorism, that they do not harbor terrorists. And that they wouldn't do so and that they also want to be the new best friends of the United States. So no support at all being demonstrated for al Qaeda or bin Laden or any of those operatives.

BLITZER: Christiane Amanpour in Mogadishu. Thank you very much for joining us. And this important note, please join Christiane at the top of the hour for her special report, "LIVE FROM SOMALIA."

How serious is the new terror alert? Can the government's public appeal foil an attack? What's the next front in the U.S. war against terrorism? Joining me now here in the CNN WAR ROOM, the former Pentagon official Frank Gaffney, he is president of the Center for Security Policy, CNN security analyst Kelly McCann, he is an anti- terror expert and CEO of Crucible Security, and, CNN military analyst, the retired four star General Wesley Clark; he's the former supreme allied commander of NATO.

Remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to us. Go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily online column.

And General Clark, let me begin with you on the Justice Department releasing these five pictures, some videotape. These terrorist suspects, al Qaeda, saying they were planning to engage in suicide missions. In the past these kinds of release of these photos have helped in finding some of these suspects. GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: That's exactly right, and they also keep the American public engaged and keep the world public engaged in this. And public support and public appreciation of the danger is a big factor here, so this a good move. And it maybe a very helpful move for them.

BLITZER: But, Frank Gaffney, the real audience for these pictures, not necessarily here in the United States unless one of the five or some of the five slipped in, but probably still over there in south Asia some place.

FRANK GAFFNEY, CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY: Well, obviously, we have no idea where these guys are. They may be dead. They may be at large in the region. They may have moved to one of the other areas that I think we will be talking about in the course of the show, where the al Qaeda network and/or other terrorist groups are operating, or indeed they may have managed to make their way here.

And one of the things that is particularly troubling, of course, is who might they be working with here. Are there sleepers? Are there other people who have infiltrated whose pictures haven't turned up yet? These could be important leads in not only counteracting what these five operatives may be up to, if they have in fact survived, but others that are connected to them.

BLITZER: And, Kelly, when the FBI director and the attorney general released these kinds of pictures, highly publicized news conferences as we saw here in Washington earlier today, do they really believe that somebody is going to simply walk in some place around the world and offer, hey, I saw this guy, he was at this cafe yesterday.

KELLY MCCANN, CEO, CRUCIBLE SECURITY: Probably not. It goes back to what the general was saying, which was the connectivity of the average American citizen to this whole process. And I think that if we really get them involved over a long duration, we will have an effect.

The interesting thing about these videos is that there's lot of unedited outtakes. They never meant for these to be seen anybody. So, you can bet that the language that you are hearing on those tapes is going to be a wealth of information that, right now, we are not privy to. So...

BLITZER: So far, they haven't released any of the audio. But I'm sure that U.S. intelligence law enforcement officials are closely looking at all of that information.

Let's move on to the situation at Guantanamo Bay. The Red Cross -- there's a delegation over there now -- wants to inspect the conditions for the 80, 100, whatever detainees who are already there. What will they be looking for?

CLARK: They are going to be looking for actually the living conditions and whether they are being treated with food, whether they have got exercise, whether they've got blankets if it's cold, whether they're protected from the weather. They are going to be looking at how they are being interrogated, whether they are receiving mail and communications and so forth. All of the basic Geneva Convention standards is what the Red Cross is going to be looking for.

BLITZER: Even though the U.S. doesn't call them prisoners of war, calls them detainees, but they still say they are conducting themselves in accordance, in effect, with the Geneva Convention. You know, there is a lot of criticism from Human Rights Watch, other groups especially in Europe about the treatment.

GAFFNEY: I don't think any of those people would want to be standing watch over those guys however. The idea that these people ought to treated more humane way, is -- the perfect example of the kind of luxury that those at a safe remove often use to criticize law enforcement or other efforts brought to bear to protect all of us. And the truth of the matter, this is a very dangerous group of people. I think they are probably being treated considerably better than they were in Afghanistan or indeed if they were turned over to any of their home countries and prosecuted in their own courts of justice.

MCCANN: And, Frank, go back a step further. Did you see the living condition that before the war, they were living and training in?

GAFFNEY: Sure.

MCCANN: I mean, those cells and those places down there are cleaner, they're better controlled and they are getting fed more often, probably, than they were before they were prisoners.

GAFFNEY: So, say nothing about a Caribbean vacation.

MCCANN: Exactly.

CLARK: We feel good about it and that's fine. And we think we're doing the right thing. But it's very important that the Red Cross and the other international agencies come in there because international support for our efforts is going to be critical in taking this operation forward.

GAFFNEY: Yes, but we shouldn't be under any illusion. I suspect there will be some bleeding hearts, either within that delegation or outside of it.

CLARK: Let's let the dialogue be joined.

GAFFNEY: We're going to say eight-by-eight is, you know, intolerable. Well, you see those pictures of those guys sitting with hundreds of them jammed into cells they were held in in Afghanistan. This is indeed...

MCCANN: And let's not forget that while they are being held in those nice kennels, cages, whatever you want to call there, they are threatening vocally Americans, that they intend to kill Americans before they leave. So everything has got to be rationalized. And I think what the General said about Red Cross, we are not hiding anything. Come in and see them. We have nothing to be ashamed of there.

CLARK: That's exactly right. Get it out in the open. Let's get these issues in front of the American people and world opinion. And that's the best way to do it.

BLITZER: And there are journalists there's as well, for whatever that means, including our own Bob Franken. General Clark, you know, our Barbara Starr, a reporter over at the Pentagon, she says the hunt now for Osama bin Laden, for al Qaeda fighters, Taliban fighters sort of moving. We have a map and I want to put it up on our screen to show our viewers.

Moving a little bit further from the eastern part, the Tora Bora area down to the southeastern part of the country in and around the Kandahar area, that seems to be like new targets of opportunities, the caves, the tunnels, the complexes down there. Any suspicion that they are going to be -- find more fighters down there, assuming that some of those fighters moved from the Tora Bora area further south.

CLARK: Well, I'm confident they are going to find additional fighters down there as well as lots of additional equipment. There has been years and years and years of storage stuffed down there. And these people, when they get run out of a fight or when a unit breaks up, they are going to go back to some place they know. So they are going to be back there. So this is an essential effort, but we have got to go back to Tora Bora again. We have got to keep our eye on a lot of different places to keep this group from reforming and continue to whittle away at it. It's a real struggle of attrition against them now.

BLITZER: And one of the big problems right now, we hear from U.S. military sources is some of those warlords nominally allied with the United States are saying we are not interested in helping -- in looking for these guys any more.

GAFFNEY: This has been the problem from the get-go. We have anticipated and I think begun to experience the questionable loyalties of guys that have spent most of their lives as independent actors or as people with very much shifting loyalties. It's serious problem. We're going to have to watch our backs.

BLITZER: All right. We are going to take a quick break. We have a lot more to talk about. When we come back, among other things, should the United States get involved in an Afghanistan peacekeeping force? And should it stay for the long haul? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to the CNN WAR ROOM. Let's get right to some of the e-mail questions. First for you, Kelly, Shirley in Ohio wants to know the answer to this question: How do we know the Somali warlords really intend to help the United States and don't plan on turning violent against us?

MCCANN: Best indication of that is the pre-Afghanistan conflict. They were very anti-American, very vociferous about it. Now that we have exercised our might in Afghanistan, we have got a totally different thing going on and they are singing a different tune. Panic, Christiane said, almost panic. If anything, I think we will see the warlords try to position themselves, just as he mentioned, to one-up another warlord because they see that as their power base. So it will be interesting.

BLITZER: All right. I've got another e-mail from Chris in Kentucky for you, General: To what extent does the al Qaeda influence the governments of its other host countries. Is its level of power in those countries similar to the power that held in Afghanistan?

CLARK: I think absolutely not. It had a unique position in Afghanistan. Now every other government knows what the price is for supporting the Taliban or al Qaeda. Absolutely not.

BLITZER: So whether it's Sudan, Yemen, Somalia.

CLARK: They are going to be pushed way under ground. They may be doing payoffs privately, but no way will the government come out and say they are going to stand firm and support them.

BLITZER: You hear pockets in the Philippines, pockets in Indonesia...

CLARK: But not supported by governments.

BLITZER: OK, nothing like existed in Afghanistan.

GAFFNEY: With the possible exception of Saudi Arabia, who is not going to officially say they supported...

BLITZER: Well, you're not really saying the Saudi government supports...

GAFFNEY: I am saying the Saudi government has been supporting the Islamist agenda of which al Qaeda is simply one particularly ugly manifestation. They have been supporting it in this country. They've been supporting it in a lot of other places. And it's beginning to get enough public notice that they are reacting. And I hope they will react positively because they have to get off of this wicket. It's very unhealthy for all of us.

BLITZER: Do you agree with that?

CLARK: I do. Saudi Arabia is the key country in this whole struggle against al Qaeda. They have got to come down hard against the kind of fundamentalism that breeds terror and violence.

MCCANN: One other element to that too is we went into Yemen and had started to make, you know, tentative friends with them. Remember, there's a border dispute between Saudi and Yemen. So as we try to sidle up to Yemen, it will be interesting what that causes.

BLITZER: All right. Let's take a look at what Tom Friedman wrote in the "New York Times", the foreign affairs columnist. He says this: It is by no means certain that even if we stay for a limited period to provide security while the Afghans rebuild, they will make it. They may just be too divided after 22 years of civil war. But if we don't try, it is absolutely certain that this whole country will become just one big cockfight again.

GAFFNEY: I must say, I think Tom Friedman is one of the most overrated of the pundit classes in this country. I don't think that's a particularly brilliant insight. The question really is what is the help? I mean, what is we were being asked to do? Is it to create a permanent...

BLITZER: To lead the international peacekeeping force.

GAFFNEY: Is it to be responsible for maintaining law and order throughout the country? Is it rebuilding? It's going to be a different answer depending on which of those things we do. I think the United States should not be the country taking over responsibility for physical security in Afghanistan. I think if anything, we have learned from history that is a formula for to us be caught in a bloody mess that will not produce the desired results.

BLITZER: General Clark, if the U.S. pulls out, the other countries are going to leave pretty quickly, aren't they?

CLARK: If the U.S. pulls out its commitments, its economic, diplomatic and its final military commitment, yes, the whole thing is going to collapse. But we should be very careful about what we are doing. We ought to carefully define it and get as many other people in the boat there with us. But U.S. leadership, fundamentally, is critical and we have to be willing to commit our resources to it.

GAFFNEY: But the question -- just quickly -- there is a role for peacekeeping that I think could be performed at the tactical level by a lot of other people while we do strategic peacekeeping in a lot of other places.

BLITZER: There's a special happy birthday we want to give to a viewer out there. He's only eight years old. Evan, happy birthday.

Thanks to our WAR ROOM panel, General Clark, Frank, Kelly. Appreciate it very much.

We'll be back in just a moment with a quick check of this hour's late developments, including U.S. travel plans for Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Here's a quick look at this hour's late developments.

Seven people are dead after an attack in northern Israel. Six Israelis and the attacker were killed and more than 30 people were wounded at a banquet hall in Hadera in Israel. Police say a man came into the hall, firing an automatic weapon and throwing grenades. A Palestinian group has claimed responsibility for the attack. Colin Powell says the United States is committed to helping Afghanistan over the long haul. The secretary of state spoke in Kabul at the news conference with Hamid Karzai, the Afghan interim leader. Karzai, by the way, will meet with U.S. officials again on January 28 when he visits the White House and meets with President Bush.

And as the nation's airports go to zero tolerance on security breaches, be sure to join me tomorrow night, a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS ask this question: "How Safe Are Your Skies?" That's tomorrow 7:00 p.m. Eastern, 4:00 p.m. on the West Coast.

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice, both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. CROSSFIRE begins right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com