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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Are Security Measures Abusive At Guantanamo?

Aired January 21, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Tonight, on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM. Prudent security measures or human rights abuses? We'll go live to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Did the U.S. let Pakistan fly secret airlifts out of Afghanistan with Taliban and al-Qaeda fighters on board? We'll go live to Afghanistan, and I'll speak live with Milt Bearden, the CIA's former point man in Afghanistan, former CIA official Reuel Gerecht, and Pulitzer prize-winning investigative journalist Seymour Hersh, as we go into the WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington. The complaints keep coming in, from the United Nations, from European Parliament members and from human rights groups in the United States. Now, representatives from the International Red Cross are on the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, inspecting the conditions of the al Qaeda and Taliban detainees. We go to our Bob Franken, he's on the scene in just a few moments. But first, even as the military campaign continues on the ground in Afghanistan the international community is passing the hat to help put Afghanistan back together again. Let's go live to our Martin Savidge, he's at Kandahar in Afghanistan, for the latest -- Marty.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you Wolf, the Kandahar Airport here, and the U.S. forces that dominated are on full alert tonight. That is always the case in the dark hours, it is 4:30 in the morning on Tuesday here. It is the military operation by the United States that continues to dominate the landscape of Afghanistan, but eventually it is going take reconstruction and money to replace that war effort. In fact going on in Tokyo in Japan, right now, there is an international conference, 60 nations that are taking part, trying to figure out how that rebuilding process is going to happen and how the money can be raised.

They need a lot of money in Afghanistan, it's estimated by the United Nations about $15 billion dollars over the next 10 years to rebuild. So far that conference has raise about $1.5 billion dollars. That would be enough to get Afghanistan through about the first year, the largest single contributor itself so departure is Japan, itself. $500 million dollars, of course, Japan has a history of reconstruction after the devastation of war, the United States has pledged about $290 million dollars, Germany pledging about $362 million, the European Union about $175 million and the the list goes on from there.

As to the fate of American Taliban John Walker, there is a report coming out of the Pentagon today that suggests he may be on his way back to United States as early as tomorrow, to face the U.S. criminal justice system. The big questions now, still to be answered; when, how and where will he be transported from? Is it possible he could be moved from his position on a ship in the Arabian Sea to the Kandahar Airport here?

It's a possibility, they have a nice long runway here, that would facilitate a long range aircraft to take him back to the United States. There's also a lot of reasons why they wouldn't necessarily want to come here, all of them have to do with the media, there are a lot of media that are gathered here. They don't want to turn this into some sort of media circus, but also it is possible that they could transport one individual here out of sight of the media and out of our knowledge.

There are other bases in this region, though, that could easily be used in which the media would not be of any concern. So right now, where he is going to be moved from and exactly when, unclear -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And Marty, as you know, the Marines are leaving the Kandahar Airport. They're being replaced by members of the 101st airborne division. How's that hand over going, from the Marines to the U.S. Army?

SAVIDGE: Well, the officials here at the base say that hand over is going very smoothly, the official hand over, the raising of the flag so to speak, took place a couple of days ago, but yesterday we noted that the Marines were pulling out their big guns. That tends to be the final sign that they're good to go, they removed their 81 millimeter mortars from out around the perimeter. They were immediately replaced by the 101st airbornes' 81 millimeter mortars, these are mortars capable of sending a shell about -- close to two miles.

Last night, just after sunset, the Army was quickly testing those weapons, making sure that they were ready to defend this base if they were called upon. It is once more, an indication that though there is perhaps a change in the posture, Operation Enduring Freedom is still ongoing here in Afghanistan -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Martin Savidge in Kandahar, thanks very much for that report.

And did the United States turn a blind eye to a Pakistani airlift from Afghanistan, letting Taliban and al Qaeda fighters join in the getaway? Joining me here in the CNN "War Room," the investigative journalist Seymour Hersh who writes of the secret exodus in the new issue of the "New Yorker." Milt Bearden, he's a 30-year veteran of the CIA, he headed the agency's covert aid to the anti-Soviet Afghan rebels. And Reuel Gerecht, he's a former CIA official, now with the American Enterprise Institute here in Washington.

Remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to our panel, just go to my Web page: cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily online column. And Sey Hersh, let me begin with you, what you write in the current issue of the "New York," among other things, you write this referring to the Pakistani president, Musharraf. "Musharraf won American support for the airlift, by warning that the humiliation of losing hundreds and perhaps thousands of Pakistani Army men and intelligence operatives would jeopardize his political survival... the decision to permit the airlift was made by the White House, it was indeed driven by a desire to protect the Pakistani leader."

BLITZER: What you're talking about was in November at Konduz. We have a map, we will show our viewers where Konduz is in Afghanistan. We will put it up on the screen. There it is, Konduz, right over here in the northern part of Afghanistan. You say that airlift came in and took the Pakistanis with some friends out of the country?

SEYMOUR HERSCH, "THE NEW YORKER": What happened is that they all got trapped there. Our war was so quick, we were so superior in the beginning of the war, and the Northern Alliance moved so quickly, we chased the Taliban out of Mazar-e Sharif, out of Talaqan (ph), everybody came to this little hill town that was, I guess, an outpost against -- in the long-running war that the Taliban had with the Northern Alliance. Anywhere from 10-20,000, the numbers ranged, including a lot of Pakistanis, a lot of Taliban and of course we did -- we tried to help Musharraf out. We are on his side, and of course we didn't want to have his boys come back in body bags, so the high command arranged for an air corridor from Konduz into Pakistan. And at night, for maybe two, maybe three nights, I am not clear -- nobody is very clear on much of this.

Pakistani planes came in and rescued people and what happened is everybody took their buddy out, just as we did in the end of the Vietnam War, when everybody coming out of Saigon, took the guys he worked with.

BLITZER: So in the process Taliban and al Qaeda fighters may have escaped from Afghanistan into Pakistan? You know the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was asked on "Meet the Press," yesterday about your story. Listen to what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I have read these stories, I've heard these stories. I've never been able to run them down, no one has able to run them down and prove them, and I doubt them. I think they're not true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Not the first time there's been, almost a near official denial to one of your reports.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HERSCH: In Watergate we use to call that an undenial denial.

BLITZER: Why do you say it is an undenial denial? HERSCH: Well, because he didn't quite say no. What he said was gee, it's news to me. Well, look, what happened is they got out. And it was embarrassing and, of course, nobody is anxious to tell the world that what started out to be as a rational or rescue program turned into an exodus, and of course the leadership got out. Where are the leaders of the Taliban? We don't have any, or al Qaeda, we don't have leaders, we have some Arabs but not the leaders. Where are the Pakistani intelligence guys that would have been captured by the Northern Alliance and put on difficulties? They are not there, they all got out. We don't numbers but many.

BLITZER: Let me bring in Milt Bearden. You have been around the track, you spent a lot of years in the CIA. One of our viewers, Rakesh in Tennessee asks this question:

"Do you think Musharraf maybe hiding Taliban and Al Qaeda leadership in Pakistan?"

MILT BEARDEN, FORMER CIA OFFICIAL: Well, I doubt that. I doubt the numbers that we are talking about for airlifted Pakistanis or al Qaeda or Taliban, something probably happened. Is it -- does it make sense for Musharraf to hide Taliban or to hide al Qaeda? Not al Qaeda, I don't think so. I think the al Qaeda numbers are probably over drawn.

Musharraf is navigating a mine field and is very careful what he's doing. I think he is probably playing it pretty straight with Washington right now.

BLITZER: Brad, another e-mail question for you Reuel. From Palo Alto, California. He asks this question:

"Our decision to let Afghan troops carry out most of the ground offensive, seems to have resulted in many top terrorist leaders escaping. Could it be that trying to keep our casualties down has compromised our objectives?"

REUEL GERECHT, FORMER CIA OFFICIAL: It's entirely possible. I mean, I think that the overall the decision to allow the Afghans to carry the initial burden was a correct one. However, there's no doubt about that once things started to unravel, it perhaps would have been better if more troops had been on the ground, plugging the escape routes towards Iran, plugging the escape routes towards Pakistan.

BLITZER: All right, stand by. I want to continue this but I want to take a break and go to our Bob Franken, he is live at the U.S. Naval base Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. He's got the latest on what's happening with the detainees. First of all, Bob, how many detainees are now at that U.S. Naval base?

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, in Guantanamo Bay, 158, that's with the addition of 14 more today. What was different about this new plane load from Kandahar is that they all came in on stretchers, all with significant medical problems. Yesterday there had been walking wounded. These could not walk, people who have been wounded who are going to have to be treated. The question is, are they going to have to be immediately hospitalized, or can they be placed in the camp and rely on the field hospital that is there until other facilities are more available to them.

They came in on a day when the criticism continued to grow about the treatment of the captives who are here. You can tall them detainees, prisoners of war, all of that is up for discussion. International Red Cross inspectors of course are on the ground here. Authorities here say that they are trying to in fact treat them as humanely as possible, consistent with international law, and consistent with security requirements.

One of the questions that has come up is the fact that U.S. authorities have shaved the hair off of all these detainees, something that is extreme sensitivity to anybody who is a Muslim, and that was something that caused the decision apparently on the part of the authorities here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. MICHAEL LENHERT, USMC: Tomorrow we are getting in a Muslim cleric, and we have asked for him and we are looking forward to his arrival either tomorrow or the following day. This is an area that we are going to discuss with him. We are going look for further guidance, fortunately because it takes a while for the hair to grow out we have a little but of time to make a good decision.

But if there are religious issues involved and they don't breach security concerns or health concerns, then we will look to higher authority for guidance as to how best to approach that. But we are not adamant that they have to be shaved at all times.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: And officials said for some time they're serving meals that are consistent with Muslim faith, and also they are using some of the facilities at the camp, for instance a guard tower, to have a call for prayer. There are signs in the camp that point toward Mecca. All of that according to people who are in charge of security, efforts to be sensitive and humane as long as security is not compromised.

There are some troublemakers, they say, in the camp and there's an ever present feeling that just about everybody who is here would love to kill their American captors -- Wolf.

BLITZER: OK, Bob Franken is at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. And this important note: Bob will join all of you at the top of the hour for a SPECIAL REPORT, LIVE FROM GUANTANAMO BAY. That is at 8 Eastern, 5 Pacific. And let's pick up our conversation now, what's happening on the ground in Afghanistan.

Cy Hersh, you just came back from there. You were in the region. Do you have any good sense, what ever happened to Osama bin Laden?

HERSH: I know as much as everybody else, which is not much. There are people inside. I will say this. There are some people at the operational level in the intelligence community. BLITZER: In the U.S. intelligence community?

HERSH: Yes, who believe that he is definitely out, who think he's headed for Somalia. I know we've been doing some targeting of Somalia, acquiring targets, which is very hard to do. But the top officials of the CIA for example, categorically say, we just don't know, folks.

BLITZER: What is this, what do you make of this President Musharraf's statement to CNN the other day that he's probably dead from kidney failure, referring to Osama bin Laden?

BEARDEN: Well, it's either he's just taking his own guess, or he is saying, look, enough is enough, lets move into phase two of this thing. That maybe a gentle nudge from Musharraf to say, let's not be blasting the place looking for bin Laden. Let's try to do something before it all falls apart. And we are at that tricky point right now where, you know, the Afghans can get into their old mischief very quickly if we don't do something about it.

BLITZER: What do you mean by phase 2?

BEARDEN: Phase two is what everybody seems to be talking about, is at least starting something along a reconstruction, humanitarian effort and not just this military effort. I think the U.S. is positioned in the regions outside of Kabul to do something.

I think we are only lacking the western area with small units, and I think something is going to have to be done pretty soon or you're going to find some of the things that brought you the Taliban starting to occur.

BLITZER: Reuel, you've studied this region for a long time. What's your educated guess about Osama bin Laden? And I use the word "guess."

GERECHT: Yes, we can all still hope that he's buried somewhere in a cave that's been bombed. If he hasn't, it would appear that he and al Qaeda have in fact planned for defense as well as they have planned for offense. And I would suspect that some of them, certainly the members of al Qaeda who come from Egyptian Islamic Jihad perhaps made their exit via Iran where they have long standing connections.

So far as bin Laden and others, I'd say that would be too risky. The Iranians wouldn't accept it, but I mean I think he probably would want to hold in Pakistan until he could move elsewhere. And it is going to be very difficult to find him, I think, if he has gone to Kashmir, or if he has gone to Karachi.

BLITZER: Cy, one of the most interesting parts of your new article in the "New Yorker" that I read very completely, was your assessment of what's happening between India and Pakistan, the nuclear tensions. While a lot of us are focusing on Afghanistan, there may be a much more serious development unfolding not very far away.

HERSH: Well, one good thing is that I think we've made the right decision with Musharraf. He's really come a long way . He gave a speech the other week in which he called for an end to the theocratic state. He is tackling a problem that nobody's wanted to tackle there since the days of Zia (ph) and that is the growth of religious fundamentalism and so he's really doing something that I -- I have to tell you -- I was skeptical, which I'm sure a lot of people I sure in the journalism community. He's really going head-on into trying to turn that state back into a secular state. If he can do that, that defuses tensions enormously.

BEARDEN: The Indians were absolutely convinced before 9/11 that they had him on the ropes. And I think there were Indian government that thought we can bring this thing down to where it might break up to its constituent pieces, which I think was a very dangerous thing in a nuclear South Asia.

But you can only imagine how much swooning there was going on in New Delhi after 9/11 and we had the only choice. Look at your map. If you're going to do something with Afghanistan, what do you do, go to Iran, Turkmenistan, China? No. You go to Pakistan.

BLITZER: And they did and the Pakistanis let the U.S. in. Stand by. We have a lot more to talk about when we come back. Was a lack of U.S. intelligence in Saudi Arabia, a key factor in the September 11 attacks? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to the CNN WAR ROOM, despite its significant military presence in Saudi Arabia a hot topic in and of itself these days: Is the U.S. suffering from a lack of intelligence there?

Once again let's go our panel, and I want to begin with you, Milt Bearden. You have spent many years in the CIA. You know Bob Baer, Robert Baer. He is the author of a new book called "See No Evil." I had him on my "LATE EDITION" program yesterday. Among other things he said this yesterday, he also elaborates on it his book. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT BAER, AUTHOR, "SEE NO EVIL": The simple fact is that 15 of these suicide bombers were recruited in Saudi Arabia, and the CIA and no intelligence agency in the United States had any sources in Saudi Arabia. This was an unforgivable error on our part.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: What do you say about that?

BEARDEN: Well, you know, we are talking intelligence failure. Let's talk big about the intelligence failure. It's not just the United States CIA, FBI, FAA, whatever else you want. It's the intelligence club that failed, 50, -- 40, 50 countries out there that probably do have reasonably good intelligence and security services. Nobody got it. BLITZER: The September 11 attack.

BEARDEN: Nobody picked up 9/11.

BLITZER: But isn't the fact that the U.S. stopped recruiting assets or agents in Saudi Arabia years earlier, that was a significant problem?

BEARDEN: This -- I don't know whether it's a failure of intelligence or a failure of imagination. I mean, did anybody believe this was coming at us? Of course it's an intelligence failure. Was there something you can do to penetrate a cell that has two brothers and three cousins? I don't know. Certainly it's a place to start.

BLITZER: But the CIA insists that since then, since September 11, that a lot of that has changed. The U.S. has a lot of operatives on the ground, gathering intelligence the way it's supposed to be done, the good old-fashioned way, as opposed to the high-tech electronic intercepts.

GERECHT: I think that's a bit silly. I mean, one, you don't correct anything in four months. It takes a very long time to develop a competent intelligence service. It takes a very long time to structure an intelligence service to focus on one particular target. And the notion that you are going to flood embassies, consulates abroad, with American officers, intelligence officials, and somehow they're going work their way out of the that environment and penetrate al Qaeda or its allies, is I think a bit hard to believe.

BLITZER: Cy Hersh, you wrote the introduction to Bob Baer's book. Obviously, you like the book. His bottom line point though, that there was a huge intelligence blunder that contributed to what happened on September 11, is it a fair one?

HERSH: Oh, sure. I don't think there's any question it was a terrible blunder. But, you know, the problem is how do you penetrate five brothers or cousins, et cetera.

One thing I wish the agency would do, whether they talk to Baer or not, I wish they would talk to some people that are critical. It seems to me this is a very sensitive agency. You know, they're like teenage, you know, girls on a soccer team. I mean, you know, if you criticize them, you're off the club forever. And it seems to me that -- it's just sort of amazing to me that a Milt Bearden or my buddy over here don't get, you know -- they have no input. They may know an awful lot more than some of the people there. They just simply don't talk to the people, whoever, say, it isn't wonderful. And that's too thin skinned for me, it seems.

BLITZER: They don't talk to you anymore? Is that what you're saying?

BEARDEN: Well, they talk to people. But the point is I don't think -- you know, when you're in, you're in, you're out, you're out. I mean, that's the way Washington operates. And we all know that. BLITZER: Very quick question. Vidal from New York City wants to know this: What would be the most dire consequence of the U.S. leaving the Saudi air base and what would be the biggest benefit?

GERECHT: Well, I mean, I don't think we should ever have had those bases in Saudi Arabia. I think that was a mistake. I mean, obvious we were caught now and you can't withdraw them expeditiously because that would give bin Laden a victory. And if bin Laden is alive, that is going to trouble the very difficult relationship the United States has with Saudi Arabia.

In the future, that's a different issue, and I think it would be astute if the United States could withdraw those and we certainly could if we destroyed Saddam Hussein in Baghdad.

BLITZER: All right. Reuel Gerecht, Cy Hersh -- got a new article in "The New Yorker" -- thanks for joining us. Milt Bearden, thanks as well.

And coming up, a new dispute in the Middle East as Israel takes a different approach in its fight against terrorists. We'll be back in just a moment, also with a quick check of this hour's late developments. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Renewed tension in the Middle East tops this hour's latest developments.

Israeli forces have moved into two major Palestinian rural cities in the West Bank and seized control of one of them. Israeli officials say they are trying to root out terrorists.

And this note: Tomorrow on a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, how prepared is your city? We'll examine security threats and we'll hear from prominent mayors on the frontline as they are trying to protect their cities. That's tomorrow night, 7:00 Eastern, 4:00 Pacific here, of course, on CNN.

And that is all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice, 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. CROSSFIRE begins right now.

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