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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Does John Walker Have a Case?; Pentagon Defends its Handling of Detainees; Kmart Files Bankruptcy
Aired January 22, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, Taliban- American fighter, John Walker, is on his way home to face a judge. Does he have a case? I'll ask top legal guns, Roy Black and Joe Digenova.
The Pentagon hotly defends its handling of other detainees from Afghanistan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: To be in an 8x8 cell in beautiful, sunny Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is not an inhumane treatment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Kmart files bankruptcy papers, as shredded Enron papers are brought into court. Are there more corporate failures ahead? I'll ask business executive and former presidential candidate, Steve Forbes.
And a pair of heavyweights can't wait for their championship bout.
Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Leading this hour's latest developments, a Taliban-American is on the move. John Walker is on his way back to the United States to face federal charges, including conspiracy to kill Americans. Walker spent several weeks on a U.S. Navy ship in the Arabian Sea after his capture in November. We'll have more on this in just a moment.
The International Red Cross says it has received full access to Afghan war detainees held at the U.S. Naval base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The delegation met privately with 30 of the al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. The Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is strongly defending U.S. handling of the detainees, saying the treatment is -- quote -- "proper, humane and fully consistent with international conventions."
A Palestinian gunman opened fire in the heart of Jerusalem, wounding dozens of Israelis before being killed by police. The military ring of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement claimed responsibility for the attack. Earlier, Israeli commandos killed four Hamas militants in the West Bank. Both sides are vowing revenge.
And in New York, the fight before the fight. Mike Tyson got into a brawl with heavyweight champion Lennox Lewis before the start of a news conference. The melee lasted a good five minutes and involved several members of both fighters' camps. Lewis says he was bitten on the leg.
More now on Taliban-American John Walker, and the uncertain future awaiting his return to the United States. After being held for weeks on a U.S. Naval ship in the Arabian Sea, Walker is now on his way home, where he faces several federal charges, including conspiracy to kill Americans. Walker was captured with other Taliban fighters in November.
Earlier today, I spoke with CNN's Martin Savidge about reports that a plane carrying Walker made a stop in Kandahar, Afghanistan. Marty is there covering all of these late-breaking developments. Marty, the question of the hour, what are you hearing about the fate of John Walker where you are?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Specifically, officially, Wolf, we are hearing nothing about the fate of John Walker or where he is. Let me recount for you quickly the bizarre events that took place here at the Kandahar airport tonight. They are confusing and they're also, journalistically, very unsettling.
It was some time ago during the dark hours that we were notified by a public affairs officer that we should go out to the edge of the tarmac to anticipate an aircraft arriving with a single detainee on board. We asked did that mean John Walker. He would not give us an answer to that. But rarely do you ever see a single detainee. It was sort of a nudge, nudge, wink wink.
We went out to the tarmac. It's very busy out there every night, all sorts of aircraft and helicopters. But eventually a C-130 did approach very close to our position. It turned, the rear ramp came down. There seemed to be an extraordinary amount of security and activity connected around that ramp. However, we could not tell through the darkness or the lens if any detainee stepped out.
As we were filming that action, suddenly armed U.S. soldiers appeared behind us along with another public affairs officer, telling us we must immediately leave, go back to the terminal. And on top of that, we were not allowed to show in any way what it was we had seen. Was that the arrival of John Walker? No one here is confirming and the American public is not allowed to see what we saw -- Wolf.
BLITZER: And, Marty, other than that, is it business as usual if you could call it that, at the rest of Kandahar at the military facility where you are?
SAVIDGE: They're in the final stages of transitioning. As you know, it was the Marines that originally took hold of this airport. They have been holding it for over six weeks now. A couple of days ago they made the official transfer to the U.S. Army, the 101st airborne division. And now that transfer is just about completed. In fact, India company, one of the first companies in here for the Marines, is exiting out of Kandahar tonight. So the Marines are pretty much good to go, mission accomplished, and the U.S. Army is digging in and expecting to be here for the long haul -- Wolf.
BLITZER: That was Marty Savidge in Kandahar, Afghanistan. I spoke with him just a little while ago. And the nightscope video you saw during the course of that conversation with Marty, what you see right now on your screen, arrived at CNN within the past hour from the Associated Press television. As Marty pointed out, we don't know for a fact that John Walker was on the C-130 cargo plane that you see in the video. We think he was, but U.S. officials so far have refused to identify the detainee who was on the plane. Of course, we'll keep you updated on this story as more information becomes available.
And, conspiring to kill his countrymen, that's just one of the several charges that have been filed against John Walker, and it carries of course, a life sentence. Joining us now to talk about this and other legal issues involved in the Walker case, the former U.S. prosecutor and U.S. attorney, Joe Digenova. And in Miami, the criminal defense attorney, Roy Black. Thanks to both of you for joining us.
Joe, let me begin with you. Conspiracy to kill Americans. You're a former U.S. Attorney, prosecutor. That's not an easy kind of case to prove, is it?
JOE DIGENOVA, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, actually conspiracy is a prosecutor's charge of first choice, because it is easier than the substantive counts. And since they're using his own statements for the initial charges against him, it's actually not a very difficult case at all. But remember, the charges that have been filed against him are only the preliminary charges. There's going to be a grand jury investigation. Obviously, there will be an indictment. And I predict there will be more serious charges, unless he decides to cooperate with the government and become a witness against Osama bin Laden.
BLITZER: Roy Black, how hard is it to prove conspiracy to kill Americans?
ROY BLACK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, Wolf, I think this is a very interesting charge, and I don't think this has been thought out very well. Because the statute says it's a crime overseas to kill an American national. The question in Walker's case is, is the joining of a hostile army against the United States make you guilty of a conspiracy to kill an American national?
Now, the problem with that is, if that's true, then anybody who belongs to any army who fights against us is guilty of this crime. And anyone in our army who fights against someone else's army is guilty of this conspiracy. So I don't believe that can be the case. I think this statute is going to have to be much more narrowly construed than people are thinking now.
BLITZER: Joe, the whole issue of he joined that hostile force long before the United States got involved in the war in Afghanistan? DIGENOVA: Yes, but he knew about the September 11th bombings here in the United States. He spoke with Osama bin Laden personally. He was briefed by members of al Qaeda on what al Qaeda was doing, along with the Taliban. I do not believe, however, that this will come down to a legal analysis of whether or not he's guilty under that statute. I think that Mr. Walker's best game will be to try and cooperate with the United States government, because I think ultimately all of his statements are going to be admissible against him. There's no way a federal judge will suppress anything he told the FBI, because he told the same thing to CNN.
BLITZER: On that specific point, Roy, the second charge that he's been accused of committing seems a little bit easier from the government's perspective -- namely, conspiracy to provide material support and resources to a designated foreign terrorist organization, by his own training, with the al Qaeda fighters, terrorists. Wouldn't he, in fact, be guilty of that charge?
BLACK: Well, it certainly looks like that at first examination. But you have to remember something. The United States gave them $30 million at about the same time he was joining the Taliban army. So, you know, timing is very important here, and what kind of help did he give them?
BLITZER: You're talking about $30 million that was provided in humanitarian assistance to the Taliban before September 11th?
BLACK: Well, not only that, but for drug eradication. The United States gave money to that government over there, I think, in May of last year. This is around the same time that Mr. Walker is over there signing up for their army. So this giving aid to the enemy loses some of its impact when you realize it's consistent with what our own government was doing.
BLITZER: What about that, Joe?
DIGENOVA: Well, I think that's an interesting argument for Roy to make and he's a great lawyer, and if John Walker is smart, he'll hire him. But the bottom line is this: when September the 11th occurred, everything changed. And whatever happened to that $30 million way before that won't matter to a jury, and it doesn't matter legally. Because John Walker was on notice at that point that the Taliban and the al Qaeda were engaged in a war against the United States, which he volunteered for from that day forth, once he knew who the enemy was.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: I was going to say, if you were his attorney, and it's obviously up in the air right now, maybe you'll wind up being his attorney. But assuming you would be his attorney, would you make a case that he simply can't get a fair trial in the United States, given all the pretrial publicity?
BLACK: First of all, Jim Brosnahan is his lawyer, who is an outstanding lawyer, by the way. I agree with Joe, that this case will be extremely difficult. And, Wolf, think about this, that every TV program, every radio program, every newspaper, everyone gives the opinion that this man is guilty. I don't see how in the world he's ever going to get an impartial jury to decide this case. Of course, I don't know that he's necessarily entitled to everybody who doesn't have an opinion. But still, you could not find a person in this country without an opinion on this, unless they've been living in a closet.
DIGENOVA: I couldn't agree more. And you know what, Roy, one of the reasons they do have an opinion is that John Walker gave interviews, not only to the FBI, but to the international media, including CNN, where he repeated, in essence, his confession to the FBI.
BLACK: Not a smart thing.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: There clearly was a problem.
DIGENOVA: And indeed, it makes him responsibility for the publicity about which he is now going to complain.
BLACK: Joe, that's overstating the case a little bit. I mean, he gave a statement to CNN.
DIGENOVA: Perhaps, perhaps.
BLACK: But also, you have to remember if you watched that videotape, he's obviously in pain and taking morphine or something.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Theoretically, isn't it possible, Joe, that a good, smart lawyer representing John Walker could get that CNN interview removed, suppressed?
DIGENOVA: No, actually, Wolf, there's no way the interview with CNN will ever be suppressed. And I congratulate CNN on being a government witness in this case, and salute them for getting that interview. No, that is a voluntary statement given to a third party. It will never be supressed.
(CROSSTALK)
BLACK: How could that be voluntary? The guy is screaming in pain, he's taking morphine, and they're operating on him while they're filming him? That's what the United States government says is voluntary?
DIGENOVA: Believe me, CNN is not an arm of the U.S. government.
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: All right, on that note, let's leave it right there. Joe Digenova, Roy Black, two of the best lawyers I know. Thanks for joining us.
BLACK: Thank you, Wolf.
DIGENOVA: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: And there's been an international U.N. cry and it continues over the condition of U.N. war detainees being held at the U.S. Naval base in Cuba. The Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld went on the offensive today, denouncing the critics and strongly defending the U.S. handling of the al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. Our military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: The Pentagon insists this picture, which ran in a British paper under the headline "Torture," shows detainees in the process of being transferred, and is not representative of the conditions under which they are being held once they are put in chain-link enclosures at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There is no question that the people that are being detained by the United States are being treated humanely. They are being treated in a manner that's consistent with the Geneva Convention, whether or not they merit that kind of a treatment. That is what the United States does.
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says the more than 150 detainees have good food, clean clothes, warm showers, exercise time, prayer mats, writing materials, Red Cross visits and first rate medical attention. What they don't have is prisoner of war status, which continues to draw fire from human rights advocates.
WILLIAM SCHULZ, AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL: Until an appropriate tribunal like a U.S. civilian court determines whether they are prisoners of war, the Geneva Conventions require they be treated like prisoners of war.
MCINTYRE: For the Pentagon, that remains a question for lawyers to sort out.
RUMSFELD: I think most people would agree that the al Qaeda is a terrorist organization. It's not a country. And to give standing under a Geneva Convention to a terrorist organization that's not a country, is something that I think some of the lawyers, who did not drop out of law school, as I did, worry about as a precedent.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: The Pentagon argued today that it is only detaining people who were fighting against the U.S. military. But there are at least six prisoners who do not fit that description, six Algerians who were recently flown by the U.S. to Guantanamo, who were arrested in Bosnia and may have intelligence relating to the al Qaeda network, but were not involved in the fighting in Afghanistan -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jamie, what are you hearing about when the U.S. government is going to finalize its decisions on what to do completely with those detainees at Guantanamo Bay?
MCINTYRE: Well, today Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said the U.S. is still working through that. He said the lawyers were hard at it. But Pentagon sources indicate that within a week or ten days, they expect a comprehensive policy to be announced by the White House, that would include the Defense Department and the Justice Department views, that would settle this question about which detainees would be subject to military tribunals, which might be subject to other criminal prosecution, which might be returned to their home countries, and what the criteria for that would be. An official told us today that they wanted to do this as one policy, not attack the problem piecemeal.
BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much for that report.
And meanwhile, there's new information and it's casting doubt on whether an American was in fact kidnapped in Afghanistan, as his family says he was. According to a U.S. official, calls made from the satellite telephone of Clark Russell Bowers after he was reportedly kidnapped have been traced to Pakistan. Bower's wife said last week that her husband had called saying he had been kidnapped by an Afghan warlord and was being held for ransom. Last Friday, Bower's mother said her son had been released. Last heard from Bowers was in Pakistan making arrangements to return to the United States.
And turning now to the situation in the Middle East. New violence and more deaths trigger outrage and vows of revenge. Our Jerusalem bureau chief, Mike Hanna, has the latest developments.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At the height of rush hour, gunfire erupts in the middle of Jerusalem. Israeli police say a lone Palestinian gunmen opened fire on passing crowds. Some 40 people were wounded. The only fatality, the gunmen himself, who was shot dead by police on the scene. The terror attack, confirmation of an upsurge in the levels of violence.
Earlier Tuesday, four Palestinians were killed by Israeli forces in the West Bank city of Nablus. Israel says they were killed in a firefight. Palestinians insist the four were attacked while asleep, assassinated in cold blood. Both sides agree the four were members of the armed wing of the militant Hamas movement.
MAHMOUD AL-ZAHAR, HAMAS SPOKESMAN: Such a crime will not pass without punishment. Retaliation is the call of every Palestinian now.
HANNA: In recent days, Israeli forces have been moving in and out of Palestinian-controlled territory at will. The Sharon government insisting it will clamp down on militant activity because the Palestinian Authority does not.
DORE GOLD, SHARON ADVISER: When our operations are completed, bomb factories dismantled, operatives of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Tanzim arrested, Israel has no reason to stay in these cities. HANNA: Israeli forces withdrew from Tulkarem, after reoccupying the Palestinian city for a 30-hour period. The Israeli military said this was part of its ongoing campaign against those planning terror attacks. Palestinians maintain this operation was part of a wider process aimed at destroying the Palestinian Authority.
SAEB ERAKAT, PALESTINIAN CABINET MEMBER: This is state terror SAEB waged against the Palestinian people, and I believe that Sharon is preparing the ground to resume the occupation.
HANNA: The authority of Palestinian security forces is being challenged by the Palestinian people, as well as the Israelis. In the wake of the Israeli attack in Nablus, a crowd besieged the prison in the West Bank city, demanding that Palestinian police release the militants they had arrested recently on the orders of Yasser Arafat.
The prisoners are released. Among them, the brother of a Hamas member killed earlier in the day.
(on camera): Hamas has pledged revenge, but it was an armed offshoot of Yasser Arafat's own Fatah movement that claimed responsibility for the Jerusalem attack. The al-Aqsa Brigades cites the killing of the Hamas members in Nablus as one of its reasons, a sign of the mounting unity between Palestinian militant groups.
Mike Hanna, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And an interactive time line takes you through the tumultuous history of the Middle East. Just go to cnn.com., AOL keyword, CNN.
Anthrax made its office off-limits.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MAJORITY LEADER: This is a great day. It's good to be back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: But do the senators' staffers share the same sentiments? Checking the fear factor on the first day back.
And later, California like you've never seen it before.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: U.S. Senators and their staffers are back at work today in the Hart Senate office building, three months after an anthrax attack forced its closure. Since then, the building has been decontaminated several times, and finally declared free of anthrax spores. Our Congressional correspondent, Kate Snow, joins us live from inside the Hart Senate office building.
Is that a brave thing you're doing, Kate? Are you pretty confident that it's free of anthrax spores?
KATE SNOW, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're pretty confident of that, Wolf, and so are all of the other hundreds of other people who work inside this building. For the last three months, as you mentioned, the only people in this atrium have been people wearing protective gear. In one office we visited, actually, the only people to signed the guest book since October were contractors, and one that read "Anthrax Remediation Team, 2001."
One of the first senators to make his way back into the Hart office building today was Senator Tom Daschle. It was his office, you'll recall, that the anthrax-tainted letter arrived at and was opened at last October, and he made a very public show of walking into the building confident, saying it is safe to be in here today. Shortly after Daschle, we saw Senator Jim Jeffords walking into the building carrying a plant, like many of the staffers who were returning here, carrying plants and files that they've accumulated over the last several months.
Many of those staffers thought that they were going to get in last week to the Hart Senate Office Building, but they had a bit of a glitch when workers discovered a bag of protective gear. They were concerned it might be contaminated, turned out it wasn't. Many staffers we talked to, though, has some butterflies, both because of that and because they had been gone for so long here, particularly those who worked in the 12 offices that were found to be contaminated last fall.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The other side of this wall they found anthrax, and they totally ripped that area apart.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What goes through your mind?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This office right here seems pretty much untouched. And that makes me a little bit uncomfortable. And, you know, you'll smell a strange odor in the air and that's a little bit strange, too, just not knowing what that is. But I guess only time will tell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do I think it will be a hundred percent safe to move back in the Hart Building? I'm not sure I can give a hundred percent, but I feel I'll be safe enough that I don't have to worry about contracting anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm was a little nervous when they found the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in the ceiling, but that all seems to be a pretty honest mistake. And our office manager did a walk through on Friday, and she said our office looks pretty good. So I'm not too nervous.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Many agencies were involved in the cleanup of the contamination here, and all the officials today saying they are confident that all the samples they took inside this building and every single office showed no sign of any anthrax spores. And most offices in the building, we should note, were not really affected by the anthrax. There was no contamination found in the majority of the offices in this building. The one the most affected, of course, the office of Senator Tom Daschle. Back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Kate Snow inside the Senate Hart Office Building, the cleanest building in Washington, D.C., perhaps anywhere else. Thanks for that report.
And is your city ready for a terrorist attack? Join me for a "Special Report." I'll talk to Washington, D.C. Mayor Anthony Williams, San Francisco's Mayor Willie Brown and Salt Lake City Mayor Rocky Anderson, 7:00 Eastern tonight, 4:00 Pacific. You can participate. Simply go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. Click on "send questions." I'll get as many of those questions to our mayors as possible. That's also, by the way, where you can read my daily on- line column, cnn.com/wolf.
Let's check some other stories right now on today's news wire. Today marks the 29th anniversary of Roe versus Wade, the Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion. Demonstrators on both sides of this highly charged issue made their annual trip to Washington to promote their views. President Bush made a call to the "March for Life" crowd on the mall to reaffirm his administration's anti-abortion stance.
You may have flown over California, but never like this before. NASA has released these 3D flyover images based on data gathered by the Space Shuttle Endeavour, almost two years ago. The radar topography mission is aimed at mapping most of the globe in intricate detail. Security concerns after September 11th delayed the release of the data and the maps.
A company under suspicion has some unusual visitors. Coming up: what were the Feds doing at Enron? And are more brand-name companies in danger of a similar downfall? I'll ask Steve Forbes.
And later, watching "Black Hawk Down" from where it all began. What was the crowd-pleaser for some of these Somalis?
And did Mike Tyson bite again? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Now to two well-known companies facing huge financial troubles: Kmart and Enron. We begin in Houston, where federal agents moved on Enron today. FBI agents entered the company's Houston headquarters and began interviewing employees. Agents also seized boxes of shredded documents that may be linked to the company's accounting troubles. All this was part of the legal battle, which was gathering energy in federal court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL LERACH, PLAINTIFF'S ATTORNEY: I think having the FBI on the premises at Enron is a pretty significant development. I'd be surprised if there is any more shredding after that.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE)
LERACH: No, if they have the FBI there, I'm satisfied that the FBI can watch over that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: President Bush today confirmed his mother-in-law invested and lost more than $8,000 in the energy company.
Now, to Kmart, the financially troubled retailer filed for chapter 11 bankruptcy protection today. The company CEO says the move will allow it to restructure operations and make a fresh start. Kmart also says all of its 2,000-plus stores are open for business right now, although unprofitable stores may be closed. The company expects to emerge from bankruptcy status next year.
But is the financial turbulence of Kmart and Enron -- are they simply isolated cases, or are more well-known companies on the verge of trouble? Joining us now, Steve Forbes. He's the president and CEO of Forbes Inc., editor-in-chief of "Forbes" magazine, and former Republican presidential candidate. Mr. Forbes, thanks for joining us. But what's the answer? Is this just the beginning? Are other huge companies also in trouble?
STEVE FORBES, PRESIDENT & CEO, FORBES INC.: Well, I think there are going to be a few more shocks before this thing is over. A lot of companies took on a lot of debt in recent years, some of them to buy back their own stock.
So I think, given the environment we're in, where money is tight, even though interest rates are low, credit conditions are being tightened. So you are going to see more shocks. You are also going to see a lot of small- and medium-sized businesses go down as well, unless there is reliquidation of the banking system.
BLITZER: Enron and Kmart are two very different companies, two very different set of problems. What's the biggest difference in the bankruptcy that both are now seeking?
FORBES: Well, I think in the case of Enron, it is a case of really bad -- not only bad management, but perhaps management that went over the edge on fraud: putting a lot of deals off the balance sheet and things like that. That -- clearly, they had a good paradigm: deregulation, trading in things like electricity. Other companies are doing it very nicely. But they got very aggressive. They believed their own hype there. So there is fraud there, I think -- at least moral fraud.
In the case of Kmart, it is simply management. Ten years ago, Wolf, Kmart had the same sales as Wal-Mart. Today, Wal-Mart has six times the sales of Kmart. That was poor management. They didn't relocate into more profitable areas. They didn't keep up in terms of having good inventory systems, which Wal-Mart did. So that was a case of purely bad management.
It's not that they didn't know how to retail. They have spun off good companies like Borders. But in terms of managing their own company, they are going the way of Woolworth and WT Grant. They didn't keep up with the times.
BLITZER: Any big companies out there, specific ones, that you want to alert our viewers out there, too, that may, may have some serious financial problems in the not-too-distant future?
FORBES: All you have to do is look at a list of junk bond entities that have junk bond debt. I dare not -- I hesitate to name names right now for fear of precipitating a panic, but the junk bond status is out there. I think companies like Moody's and S&P are going to be much more aggressive about downgrading companies.
But you look at areas, and the telecoms, there are still some disasters to come there. They are overloaded with debt. And, as a matter of fact, in terms of Enron, where the focus is right now, we have had huge busts in telecommunications and dot-coms. Hundreds of billions of dollars have been lost. And what surprises me is how well the financial system so far has held up under some massive bankruptcies and coming liquidations.
BLITZER: As you know, Mr. Forbes, some who support finance campaign reform -- many who support campaign finance reform legislation are pointing to Enron, the huge campaign contributions it made, as a reason to go forward now and pass this legislation.
Among others, "The New York Times" wrote this in an editorial today. Let me put it up on the screen: "Enron's vast contributions have already corrupted decision-making on tax cuts, energy policy, and financial regulations. Now they threaten to hamper the investigation into one of the biggest business scandals in American history."
Will the Enron scandal push campaign finance reform legislation over the top?
FORBES: Well, if I were a stockholder in Enron, I would think that their campaign contributions have got them a pitifully small return. The company is now bankrupt. It couldn't get a bailout from the government, which the airlines were able to do after September 11.
And, in terms of investigations, investigations are going forward. Everyone is getting involved with it: the FBI, the Justice Department, several committees on Capitol Hill, the SEC. So there will be plenty of investigations. I think what we see here is that when you get a catastrophic failure in the system, the system has the capacity to find out what went wrong and to put in reforms. I think reforms will be coming on 401(k)s and on accounting. They talk about conflicts of interest on accounting, where companies like Andersen do other things for the company, consulting deals.
The real problem is that Andersen and others are paid by the company on whom they are doing the audits. So I think you are going to see fundamental changes in accounting, investor responsibilities in the weeks and months ahead from what happened at Enron.
BLITZER: Steve Forbes, as usual, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it very much.
FORBES: Thank you.
BLITZER: And from Wall Street to Washington: Like many other Fortune 500 companies, the Enron Corporation has in fact made huge political contributions. And for years, many on Capitol Hill have been concerned with those financial ties and pressing for campaign finance reform.
Joining us with more on this is Republican Congressman Chris Shays of Connecticut, one of the leaders in pushing for campaign finance reform.
Let me ask you the question, Congressman: Will the Enron scandal push campaign finance -- will you get to vote on it on the House floor, despite what your Republican leadership wants?
REP. CHRISTOPHER SHAYS (R), CONNECTICUT: Oh, absolutely.
Enron is just a wonderful example of major corporations spending big dollars to buy access and influence. And they got both. Enron has just pointed out all the ways that we need to reform the system, one of which is campaign finance reform.
Accounting standards need to be changed. Regulators need to do a better job. There is a whole host of activities for reform. And one of them clearly is campaign finance reform.
BLITZER: Well, you heard Steve Forbes say that it wasn't enough to get a bailout of Enron, which Ken Lay, their CEO, had sought, despite those millions that had been given to politicians.
SHAYS: Well, I think a bailout would have just been too obvious. You can't connect 9/11 to Enron's problems. But what it did do is, it bought them tremendous access to very important people. It bought them tremendous influence over energy decisions.
And what they did is, they used corporate treasury money, a half- a-million dollars to the Democratic Party, $1.1 million to the Republican Party in corporate treasury money. And that's what we are trying to ban, the corporate treasury money and the union dues money and get it back to individuals. BLITZER: All right, McCain-Feingold passed the Senate, as you know. Your version, Shays-Meehan, still on hold in the U.S. House of Representatives. You need, what, two or three more members to get what's called a discharge petition to at least allow it to come up for a vote? You think you have it?
SHAYS: Yes, we need four signatures. I think we have the signatures. And then we need the goodwill of the leadership to schedule a fair vote. We passed this bill twice in two other Congresses. The Senate, for the first time, passed their bill. We want a bill that will be close to the Senate bill and then send our bill back to the Senate, avoid a conference committee, and then send it to the president.
And I believe the president will sign it. He has already told leadership he will, so I think he will.
BLITZER: Any prospects of any members of the Congressional Black Caucus, for example, who have been opposed now to Shays-Meehan, thinking it will hurt their causes down the road -- any prospects of turning around some members of the Congressional Black Caucus?
SHAYS: Well, I think there will be a number of members who will sign on. It doesn't hurt anyone's prospects.
Some Democrats think it hurts them. Some Republicans think it hurts the Republican Party. In fact, it gets us back to the days when we didn't spend millions and millions of dollars on campaigns.
BLITZER: Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama -- I spoke to him on Sunday -- he sees no connection between campaign fund-raising and Enron's collapse. Listen to what he told me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: I don't see the real connection. I know they are broad allegations here between why we should have campaign reform and the Enron situation. I think we -- again, we should get to the bottom of Enron, but I believe it is not the same thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: You disagree with him, don't you, Congressman?
SHAYS: Enron didn't go under because of their campaign finance laws. They went under because of bad management, manipulation of the accounting firms, of the regulators. Wall Street didn't analyze the way they should. There was a lot of breakdowns.
But the bottom line is, this whole messy story of pensioners losing their money, employees losing their money, stockholders losing their money, it is a messy story that also includes extraordinarily large sums to buy money and influence; $100,000 dollars to the Senate party, Republicans, $100,000 to the Democratic in the Senate and $100,000 to the Republican House Committee all in the last -- since the fall.
BLITZER: Congressman Chris Shays, always good to speak with you. Appreciate it very much.
SHAYS: Thanks.
BLITZER: And we have this just in: One of the Arthur Andersen accounting firm's top executives, a man by the name of David Duncan, who was in overall charge of the Enron audit, is now expected to take the Fifth Amendment, plead the Fifth Amendment, not answer questions when is he called to testify before one of the congressional hearings beginning its own investigation into Enron tomorrow -- David Duncan of Arthur Andersen expected to take the Fifth, not respond to questions when he is grilled, supposedly, by members of Congress as early as tomorrow. We will have more of this coming up.
Enron's political influence, of course, has been well documented over these past several weeks. But how can you find out who contributes to your congressman or your senator?
Joining us now to navigate through all this, especially going to the Web, CNN.com technology editor Daniel Sieberg.
Daniel, tell our viewers where they can go to find out this information.
DANIEL SIEBERG, CNN TECHNOLOGY EDITOR: Hello, Wolf.
We are going to start with the site where all this information, the organization where all of this information needs to be registered legally by law. And first place we are going to start is with the Federal Election Commission Web site. And you find this at fec.gov.
Now, of course, this has a massive amount of information. And critics say the only problem with this site is it can be a little bit difficult to navigate, to get around and find it. So a number of nonprofit, nonpartisan organizations have tried to make this information a little more user friendly, make it more accessible to the general public.
And the first one we are going to look at is the Center for Responsive Politics. And the URL, the Web site address, for this one is very interesting. It's at opensecrets.org. Now, if you go to this site, you can find a number of different ways to find the information, to access the information.
Interestingly, Wolf, when they first started compiling these findings back in 1988, they put them out in a 1,300-page book that weighed about 6.5 pounds and cost $190. And now, of course, you can access all of this information for free on the Internet. You can you about looking through zip codes. You can go about looking through your area, where you are. There is a number of different ways to find the information at the federal level.
Now, at the state level, we have the National Institute on Money in State Politics -- another interesting Web site address for this one at followthemoney.org. This one, again, allows you a number of different ways to go through it. They have tutorials and ways to find the information. It's a massive amount of information. Some of the people who organize these sites describe it as almost masochistic and grim to try and get through the literally thousands of submissions and contributions and millions of dollars that they have to try and put up on these sites.
The last one we will look at is the Center for Public Integrity. And it is at publicintegrity.org. It takes this information just a step further. It goes to kind of the investigative level and does stories more about where the money went and tries to follow the money trail. So it does a more reporting job. They say they actually have reporters around the world who look at the information, look at these contributions, see where they went and try to compile it for people that way.
BLITZER: Daniel Sieberg, thanks for joining us -- Daniel Sieberg of CNN.com, very useful information.
And this important note: two full hours of Enron coverage ahead. Tonight on CNN at the top of the hour, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" looks at how fast and loose Enron played with accounting rules. And Lou will be back later in the evening. He will anchor "Live From Houston," a one-hour special report on the fall of Enron. And see the connection between Enron and Washington. Find how who dumped stock. You can find that all out on Lou's report, "Live From Houston," at 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.
President Bush was on the road today. During an appearance in West Virginia, he laid out many of the key points of his domestic agenda.
Our White House correspondent, Major Garrett, joins us now live from the White House with details -- Major.
MAJOR GARRETT, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, and there is nothing more important in that domestic agenda for the Bush White House than the future of the economy.
Most Bush economic advisers see a recovery on the way, but the key for the president and his political allies in Congress is the magnitude, the size of that recovery. The president's top economic advisers believe that will be affected, at least partially, by the size and the swiftness with which Congress acts on an economic stimulus bill.
That's why the president went to West Virginia talking about not only the need for further tax cuts, but to protect the tax cuts already passed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is kind of a wacky economic theory going around Washington. It says, the more they take in your taxes, the better off you'll be.
(LAUGHTER)
BUSH: It doesn't make any economic sense. It doesn't make any dollars and cents. And here in West Virginia, like they do elsewhere, they know this is nonsense.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GARRETT: That's a none-too-veiled reference, Wolf, to a speech by Senator Edward Kennedy, Democrat from Massachusetts, calling for repeal of at least part of the Bush tax cut -- the White House very much opposed to that.
And, earlier today, I talked to the chief the president's economic adviser, Larry Lindsey. He says the nation is seen very near the end of higher unemployment rates. The current unemployment rate is 5.8 percent. But he said, with an economic stimulus plan, Wolf, by the fourth quarter of this year, economic growth could be as robust as 3.5 percent.
Without an economic stimulus plan, however, he said it could be just 2.7 percent growth. And between 2.7 percent and 3.5 percent, he said, a lot of Americans who would not get jobs. That is why it is so important, the president says, to get an economic stimulus bill and get one soon -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Major Garrett at the White House, thanks very much.
The critically acclaimed movie "Black Hawk Down" opened to mixed reviews in Somalia. Coming up: What made the crowds cheer and jeer? And later, the fashion show just off the runway: why the former president's daughter made the snapshots.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: And now to Somalia and revisiting the past: The movie "Black Hawk Down" tells the story of a U.S. military operation in the East African nation in 1993, a mission that left 18 U.S. troops dead. The film has gotten some rave reviews here in the United States.
But in its debut in Somalia, there has been a very different reaction, as CNN's Jeff Koinange reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): By 7:00 at night, virtually everyone in Mogadishu had heard "Black Hawk Down" the movie was here, the first bootleg copy to reach Somalia. The price of a ticket, 10 U.S. cents. Hundreds of Somalis crowded into this outdoor playground less than a mile from where the real Black Hawk went down.
In this country, where the U.S.'s military effort to catch the powerful Somali warlord Mohamed Aidid was opposed, the audience took delight in scenes of American defeat. Each time an American chopper goes down, the audience cheers. Each time an American serviceman is killed, the audience cheers some more.
The Hollywood production relives the events of October, 1993, when U.S. forces in Somalia suffered their largest one day casualties since the Vietnam War. Their mission? To capture Aidid from his stronghold in the war torn capital and take him to a ship anchored off the coast nearby. By the time the battle was over 16 hours later, 18 elite American Rangers and hundreds of Somalis lay dead in the streets of Mogadishu.
Achmed Abullah (ph) says he witnessed the actual battle and says the movie is more fiction than fact. "It's not fair what the U.S. is trying to do. What I saw that day was different from what I see in this film today. It's not accurate," he says.
Others say the movie brings back disturbing memories of a day they'll never forget. "I felt very sad watching the film," says this woman. "It's not right what the Americans are trying to do."
Some in this audience were actually proud of the way Somalis were portrayed in "Black Hawk Down." They believe they were defending their country and their pride against what they considered U.S. military aggression. "As you can see," says this man, "Somalis are brave fighters. If the Americans come back to fight us, we shall defeat them again."
"Let them try again," this man says. "They'll be making more films about us when we defeat them like we did that day."
The events of that day led to the eventual withdrawal of U.S. forces from Somalia, ending their mission here. Eight years later, Somalia continues to slide into the abyss as anarchy and lawlessness combine to make it one of the most ungovernable places in the world today.
(on camera): While "Black Hack Down" may prove entertaining to movie audiences worldwide, Somalis here see it as a painful reenactment of their past, a past that could come back to haunt them, coming at a time when they are looking to the outside world for a helping hand.
Jeff Koinange, CNN, Mogadishu.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And first an ear, now a leg -- coming up: the allegations against Mike Tyson.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Now checking these stories on today's "Newswire": The smooth and sultry singer Peggy Lee has died. The 81-year-old legend was perhaps best known for her song "Fever." Her first smash hit was "Why Don't You Do it Right?," recorded in 1942. A web site devoted to the singer lists the cause of her death as a heart attack. It's the end of an era in the fashion world. Designer Yves Saint Laurent showed off four decades of his creations in his last high- fashion show in Paris. The designer announced two weeks ago that he was ending his long career. His first high-fashion collection was unveiled in 1962.
At another high-fashion show in Paris, Chelsea Clinton, hanging out with a couple of gal pals, debuted her new look. The former president's daughter was front row center with Gwyneth Paltrow and Madonna. Chelsea's sophisticated new look is a short-and-straight bob. She has lost those curls, which I remember, of course, and all of you remember quite well.
Let's get a preview now of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins, of course, at the top of the hour. Lou is in Houston tonight -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": That's right, Wolf. Thank you very much.
We are live in Houston covering the collapse, the scandal of Enron, the effect the collapse has had on this city. We are at the epicenter. We will also be reporting to you on the collapse of Kmart and its bankruptcy. The Nasdaq tonight is at a two-month low. Jeff Bezos will be here to talk about a first-ever for Amazon.com, something called a profit. And General David Grange will join us. We will have the latest from General Grange on the treatment of those so- called detainees in Guantanamo Bay. We will also have the latest on the violence in the Middle East -- all of that and more coming up at the top of the hour.
Please join us -- now back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Lou, we will be watching. We will be watching your special, "Live From Houston," at 8:00 as well.
And boxers are expected to throw punches, but teeth are supposedly off limits. Did Mike Tyson do it again? An opponent's allegations when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: This program reminder: Patricia Hearst gives an exclusive interview to Larry King tonight, 9:00 Eastern, 6:00 Pacific.
And, finally, the brawl before the fight: former heavyweight champ Mike Tyson taking issue with his upcoming opponent, the reigning heavyweight champ, Lennox Lewis. It was supposed to be a news conference.
CNN Sports Illustrated's Terry Baddoo with the blow-by-blow description.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, Lewis vs. Tyson is on. TERRY BADDOO, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): And indeed it was, though some 74 days early, as the two men, scheduled to meet on April 6 in Las Vegas in a fight worth a reported $100 million, went at it for free in New York.
There was some debate as to whether the skirmish was contrived, especially as it echoed Lewis' studio clash with Hasim Rahman ahead of his last fight. But there seemed to be nothing artificial about Tyson's fury as he screamed and acted out obscenities toward the audience.
MIKE TYSON, PROFESSIONAL BOXER: Anybody in here can't (EXPLETIVE DELETED) He is the ultimate, man. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) you, ho'. Come and say that to my face. (EXPLETIVE DELETED) everybody. You bitch. Come on, you bitch. You scared coward, you're not man enough to (EXPLETIVE DELETED) with me. You can't last two minutes in my world, bitch. Look at you, you're scared now, you ho', scared like a little white (EXPLETIVE DELETED) scared of the real man. I will (EXPLETIVE DELETED) until you love me (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
BADDOO: Tyson's tirade, extreme though it was, may have been provoked, at least according to eyewitnesses.
COLIN HART, COLUMNIST, "LONDON SUN": He wasn't cursing at the audience. He was cursing at a particular man, member, a gentleman of the press, who I'm glad to say wasn't British, who yelled out at him, "You should be put in a straitjacket."
BADDOO: Provoked or not, Tyson's response was widely condemned, except by his own camp, that is, who claimed the entire incident was boxing business as usual.
STACEY MCKINLEY, TYSON TRAINER: Call back and ask Joe Frazier why him and Ali did the same thing. Why do you act like this is something new? This ain't nothing new. You got two heavyweights ready to go to war. One of them is a cold killer and one is a coward.
QUESTION: Which is which?
MCKINLEY: I don't even have to answer that question. You know Mike Tyson will destroy that boy in that ring. You already know that.
BADDOO: Whatever the catalyst, the Lennox Lewis camp claims to be taking what happened extremely seriously, the Britain, via a spokesman, making it known he intends to review his plans it fight.
ADRIAN OGUN, LEWIS BUSINESS MANAGER: "As a result of today's events, I will evaluate my options after the relevant boxing commissions rule."
And that's all that Lennox has to say at the moment.
BADDOO: The commission in question is the Nevada State Athletic Commission, which is due to consider Tyson's application for a boxing license on January 29. On seeing the incident, however, that decision was not their immediate concern. MARC RATNER, NEVADA STATE ATHLETIC COMMISSION: Some day, somebody is going to get either knifed or killed at one of these things. And I certainly don't want the blood on our hands. I'm very, very adamant about this. I said this morning early to the participants, do not let them pose, so there would not be a problem. And yet they did.
BADDOO: So, as Tyson left for his hotel, his boxing future hung in the balance. But, then, for a man well used to controversy, the uncertainty is nothing new.
I'm Terry Baddoo.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: That was Terry Baddoo with an excellent report. Thank you so much. I guess there is a lot of interest going to be generated as a result of that.
And I will be back in one hour with our own special report: "How Prepared is Your City?" Mayors from Washington, D.C., San Francisco and Salt Lake City join me, 7:00 p.m. Eastern, 4:00 on the West Coast.
Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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