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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
What Rights for John Walker?; Terror Threat Still on Homefront; Al Qaeda Starting to Talk
Aired January 23, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, in for a rude awakening? Taliban-American fighter John Walker is due back home in just a couple of hours.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He will now get the justice he deserves.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: But what rights will he have? I'll ask Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz.
Some of the captured al Qaeda fighters are starting to sing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The information has prevented additional attacks against United States facilities around the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: But the terror threat remains on the home front. With the Super Bowl and Mardi Gras looming, I'll speak live with New Orleans Mayor Mark Morial and two other mayors, on the front line of defense.
He's trying to keep his seat. She's changing hers.
Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We being with the Taliban American about to arrive back in the United States. According to federal court officials, Taliban American John Walker will make his first court appearance tomorrow in Alexandria, Virginia. That's just outside Washington, D.C. A plane carrying Walker is expected to land at Dulles Airport in suburban Northern Virginia in just a few hours. Walker faces several terrorism-related charges, including conspiracy to kill fellow Americans. We'll have much more on this in just a moment.
The United States has temporarily suspended the transfer of Afghan war detainees to the U.S. Naval base in Cuba. Officials say they've run out of places to put them. Right now there are 160 cells for the 158 al Qaeda and Taliban prisoners. Work on 60 additional cells is expected to be completed tomorrow.
The reward for information about the person who sent anthrax through the mail has been doubled, to $2.5 million. The anthrax letters were processed at a post office in central New Jersey. Five people, including two postal workers, died of anthrax last year.
On Capitol Hill, a Congressional committee is set to open hearings tomorrow on the Enron scandal. The House Energy and Commerce subcommittee has served several subpoenas to key figures at Enron's longtime auditor, Arthur Andersen. The Arthur Andersen auditor, fired for his role in destroying Enron documents, says he will not testify, unless given immunity.
Now the fast-moving story of John Walker, the 20-year-old American who converted to Islam and fought with the Taliban in Afghanistan. A military plane carrying Walker is expected to land at nearby Washington-Dulles Airport in just a couple of hours. Our national correspondent, Susan Candiotti, has been covering the story. She joins us now. Susan, what can we expect to develop in the next few hours and days, for that matter?
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Everything should be happening pretty quickly, Wolf, as a matter of fact. John Walker is expected to arrive within the next hour and a half or so, at a secure area at Dulles Airport, which is about 30 miles outside Washington. He's in the custody of the FBI. Agents have been with him throughout the long journey. Then he will be whisked off in short order to a city jail in Alexandria, Virginia.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Security at the Alexandria detention center, at the highest level. It is the same place alleged terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui is being held. Authorities stand ready for possible trouble at the jail and courthouse.
JOHN HACKMAN, U.S. MARSHALS SERVICE: We might have protesters who might come on, and we're prepared for that. And also we might have a situation where you might have people who are favorable with the Taliban or the al Qaeda, that might come in and try to extract him.
CANDIOTTI: A family spokesman says Walker's parents are in Washington, anxious to meet with their son as soon as possible after his arrival. He'll meet a judge first thing Thursday morning, the 20- year-old's first official appearance. The charges will be read, including conspiring to kill fellow Americans overseas and provided material support to terrorists. He'll near the maximum penalty he faces, life behind bars. The government is expected to ask bond be denied.
FLEISCHER: The great strength of America is he will now have his day in court. And he will be judged impartially and fairly.
CANDIOTTI: Key to the government's case, Walker's statement to the FBI. The government says he signed a waiver to talk without a lawyer present. Walker allegedly admits he was told Osama bin Laden had sent people to the U.S. for the suicide missions four months before the September 11th attacks. That he was thanked personally by bin Laden for joining his jihad.
KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: If Walker's confession gets in front of a U.S. jury, they're going to want to throw him in prison, toss away the key or worse. It's absolutely devastating.
CANDIOTTI: Walker's attorneys, whether appointed or private, will challenge his alleged confession.
BERNIE GRIM, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: If his statement is ruled by a judge to be involuntary, it is inadmissible for all purposes throughout the course of the case. They can never use it against him.
CANDIOTTI: Harder to challenge may be his interview with CNN, from which the government quotes extensively in the indictment. Claiming Walker knew exactly what he was doing when he took up arms with the Taliban.
JOHN WALKER, TALIBAN AMERICAN: My heart became attached to them. I wanted to help them one way or another.
CANDIOTTI: These CNN pictures, taken after his capture, show a battle-worn warrior -- a far cry from the youngster who grew up in California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Walker's parents won't say whether they will be in court. We are led to believe they are anticipating a meeting with their son before that very first court appearance. No official word on that.
The big question, Wolf, though, is what will Walker look like now, and will he accept the lawyers that have been hired by his family to represent him? We'll find out in court.
BLITZER: Those are good questions. But another question I have, why Dulles Airport? A major civilian, commercial airport outside of Washington, D.C.? Why not simply fly into a military air base on the East Coast of the United States?
CANDIOTTI: Well, for one thing, authorities tell us they wanted to make sure he was kept in the same jurisdiction in which he will be tried. If they landed, for example, at Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, that wouldn't work. They have to keep it in the same jurisdiction, otherwise they would have to deal with an extradition hearing.
BLITZER: OK, Susan Candiotti, thanks for that explanation. Appreciate it very much.
And we've just heard the charges against John Walker. Now let's talk about his legal rights -- what those rights might be for a Taliban fighter. Joining us now to talk about that, the famed criminal defense attorney, the Harvard law professor, Alan Dershowitz. Alan, thanks for joining us.
Will he be able to realistically get a fair trial in Northern Virginia?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he'll get a fair trial. Northern Virginia is the most pro-prosecution part of the country, particularly the fourth circuit court of appeals, but he'll get a fair trial. The question is, does he want a fair trial? The question I think that's most important, is what's going to happen during his first meeting with his lawyer?
Is he going to say, "I don't want to raise any of these legal defenses"? "I want to say that what I did was right, I want to use the trial as a vehicle for proclaiming the virtues of Jihad," and using it for propaganda purposes. He may fire the lawyer hired by his parents, and he may refuse the deal with the lawyer appointed by the court. That's the first barrier that has to be overcome, before we know what kind of a trial he seeks.
BLITZER: Well, what if he does do that? What if he says I have nothing to be ashamed about, I love Islam, I love what I was doing, and I don't even recognize this court that you're putting me before?
DERSHOWITZ: He may be able to do that. The trial court would then have lots of discretion in preventing him from using the court as a propaganda vehicle, although I think that would be a mistake. You know, let him say what he wants. No right-thinking person is going to believe him or accept that nonsense from him, and it will just absolutely doom him, legally.
On the other hand, he may say to the lawyers, look, get me out of here. And I have tell you, the first of the three charges, conspiracy to kill Americans, I've heard nothing on the basis of the evidence that's so far been alluded that would make that an easy charge to maintain. You have to have a specific intent, as part of the conspiracy. The goal of the conspiracy has to be to kill Americans.
If he can demonstrate that he joined the Taliban to fight the Northern Alliance, and that he turned down an opportunity to blow up Americans, as apparently he said in the interview, it may be harder to prove that charge than appears. The other two charges probably will be easier to establish, but they don't have the same kind of force that conspiracy to kill Americans has.
BLITZER: The conspiracy to aid a terrorist organization hostile to the United States, that would still carry some severe punishment?
DERSHOWITZ: It would, and I think it would be fairly easy to prove that. Clearly he maintained his membership, his loyalty to the Taliban after finding out the Taliban was supporting al Qaeda and al Qaeda had blown up the World Trade Center. There's evidence to suggest that he knew in advance that there might be American institutions and people targeted.
Although under American law, you have no obligation, affirmatively, to warn of an impending disaster, even though you have a moral obligation to do so. The fact that he was part of the conspiracy early on, that may be relevant in showing at least that he didn't try to get out of the conspiracy.
BLITZER: A lot of people are saying he should just cooperate fully, plead guilty, go into some sort of plea bargain agreement, tell everything he knows, beg for mercy, apologize, say he was young, he was naive, he was misguided, and just try to get the best possible deal. If he were your client, would you think that would be good advice?
DERSHOWITZ: If I were his lawyer, I would certainly put that option to him. This is not the kind of young man who is likely accept that. Some people have talked about the Patty Hearst type brainwashing defense. That's a nonstarter. It won't work. Patty Hearst was kidnapped. He voluntarily went and joined. I don't think we're going to see a brainwashing defense succeed.
But if there's a plea bargain, one can imagine one charge with substantial prison term. But it's unlikely he'll want to do that. You know, the one thing we don't know is what that meeting -- I'd love to be a fly on the wall, none of us will be -- except, by the way, if Attorney General Ashcroft gets his way, and allows conversations between lawyers and clients to be bugged. We don't know whether they're going to bug this conversation. But if it were to be bugged, it would destroy any possibility of having a candid conversation.
But it would be interesting to hear what he says to his lawyer, whether he wants to defend on legal grounds. He is different than others. He's American, he knows what the constitution provides. He's seen "Perry Mason." He's probably seen "To Kill a Mockingbird." He knows what kind of defense he could get if he chose to have it. But he may not want to have that kind of defense.
BLITZER: We'd all like to be a fly on that wall of that meeting. Alan Dershowitz, appreciate it very much. And if in fact they are going to bug that meeting officially, the attorney representing Mr. Walker would know about that in advance, going into the meeting. So there probably wouldn't be a very candid conversation. Thanks as always, for joining us.
DERSHOWITZ: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: And John Walker's departure from Kandahar in Afghanistan came very close to the FBI director Robert Mueller's visit to the country. While we don't know if Mueller met with Walker, he says that some of the information gained from detainees in Kandahar has prevented more terrorist attacks against U.S. interests.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Yemen, site of the October, 2000 attack on the U.S.S. Cole, and cauldron of support for Osama bin Laden. Last week the U.S. closed its embassy in the capital, Sanaa, following what was called a creditable threat of a terrorist attack. That information came from a top bin Laden aid, the former head of al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan. He was interrogated at the U.S. base in Kandahar. He's the highest-level al Qaeda member in U.S. custody, but apparently not the only one providing details to the United States.
ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: The information that has been obtained from interrogations of al Qaeda members who have been detained here in Afghanistan, as well as information gleaned from documents found in Afghanistan, that information has prevented additional attacks against the United States facilities around the world.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: There you have it, the director of the FBI, revealing the key information obtained from al Qaeda members has already prevented some new terror attacks. But in the questioning of terrorists, how do you weed out the lies and misinformation from the truth? Joining us with some expertise on this issue, the former FBI Deputy Director Buck Revell.
Buck, thanks for joining us. How do they know when a suspected terrorist is telling them the truth, or just making something up?
BUCK REVELL, FMR. FBI DEP. DIRECTOR: Very carefully, Wolf. You have to expect that there is going to be a lot of misinformation, disinformation, flat out lies. But you continue to build a web of information around whatever an individual is telling you.
You bring in documentation, what other detainees are saying, what you are learned from other intelligence capabilities, and you weave them all together and keep going back at them on those areas where they are fabricating. And eventually, some of them will break down and realize that it's to their best interest to cooperate. And you will get some valuable information.
BLITZER: Some these guys, presumably, are scared, they want to boast and they say we know all sorts of information that could involve your security, terrorism. And that's what you particularly have to be concerned about, not going down blind alleys.
REVELL: Absolutely. You have to check out everything that's said. You can't ignore it. Obviously, you have to pursue it as though it may be factual, unless you know up front that it is not. But you cannot discard something, even though it may seem strange and unusual. For instance, if on September the 10th we'd had somebody walk in and say, "I know about a plot to fly airplanes into the World Trade Center buildings," I would hope that it would have been taken serious, even though it seemed totally implausible.
BLITZER: When you get this kind of information from so-called walk-ins, as they're called in your former business, usually you have to take the information immediately with a grain of salt, don't you?
REVELL: Well, not necessarily. It depends upon the specificity, the individual's background, whether they had access to that kind of information or that kind of group and organization. So they usually, when they walk in, will have some kind of idea of what they want. There will be other things on the agenda besides them just being good citizens, or wanting to prevent acts of violence. But you have to evaluate it and determine the circumstances by which that information was provided. And of course, the plausibility of the information.
Remember, back in '93, there was a plot well in progress to blow up the Lincoln and Holland Tunnels, the George Washington bridge and the U.N. building. And that was prevented by a person who decided to cooperate.
BLITZER: I've known you for many years, Buck, going to your days back here in Washington at FBI headquarters. How serious should the American public assume the notion that sleeper cells, al Qaeda, or other terrorists, sleeper cells are still out there? How concerned should they be?
REVELL: Well, I don't think there's any question that, within the network that the al Qaeda represents, there are elements that are hidden, that they are sleeper cells, that there are capabilities. I suspect most of them are overseas in Europe and in other places, and come in here, as did the September -- the 9-11 group.
However, we have had (UNINTELLIGIBLE) cells in United States, we've had Hezbullah cells. There's no reason for us to believe they're not also here as well.
BLITZER: Is it your sense though, that they still have the network, the al Qaeda network, has the communications capability right now to organize a major terrorist attack?
REVELL: I believe that they do. It probably would not emanate from Afghanistan, and it probably wouldn't be initiated by Osama bin Laden. But this is a network. This is not a tight-knit organization. There are many other terrorist organizations that are part of this network. We saw over the Y2K in Algeria, a member of the GIA coming down from Canada, that wanted to bomb LAX. Under the auspices of the al Qaeda, but a separate terrorist organization.
So there certainly is the kind of capability to carry out those acts, and with the individual going on board the American Airlines flight with the shoes. Again, a situation that may have only taken one or two people to activate that type of response.
BLITZER: Buck Revell, thanks for joining us.
REVELL: You're welcome, Wolf.
BLITZER: And with no breakthrough in the anthrax investigation, federal authorities are hoping money talks. They're doubling a reward and passing clues in hopes someone can point them in the right direction. CNN's Michael Okwu is covering today's developments. He's in west Trenton, New Jersey, where some of the anthrax letters were mailed. Michael, tell us the latest.
MICHAEL OKWU, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, that announcement came just several hours ago here at state headquarters of the state police here, in west Trenton, New Jersey. Now, that number is now up to $2.5 million. The federal government will provide some $2 million. An additional $500,000 will come from Advo. That is a Connecticut-based direct-mail company whose business was badly damaged by a downturn in postal activity following the anthrax mailings.
Now, investigators also unveiled a flier with essential information that will be sent, starting tomorrow, to some 500,000 residents in south central New Jersey and Bucks County, Pennsylvania.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN DONOVAN, FBI: We ask that you take a moment to read the fliers, look again at the handwriting on the envelopes. And if you have any information that could help us identify the individual who mailed these letters, please call us. Pick up the phone and make the call. You may have the one piece of evidence, or the one piece of information that helps us resolve this case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
OKWU: Now, take a closer look at this flier. It includes information about the reward, again, $2.5 million. It also includes writing samples from the four anthrax-tainted letters that were postmarked at a major mail distribution facility here in the Trenton area. And lastly, it includes profile information about the person investigators believe sent those letters -- someone who likely has a scientific background or work history, which may include familiarity with anthrax. And, someone who has a level of comfort in and around the Trenton area.
Wolf, this is essentially a plea for help from investigators. They made the point quite emphatically today that they have been making some progress in this case, albeit incrementally. But at this point, all they have is the evidence, essentially, the anthrax. What they're hoping for is along with some vital information, perhaps information provided by somebody in the community, that they will be able to track and identify the source -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Michael Okwu in west Trenton, New Jersey. Thanks very much.
Of course, the big question in the anthrax investigation is, who is this bad guy or bad persons who were involved? Barbara Hatch Rosenberg is a bioterrorism expert. She's with the Federation of American Scientists. She thinks she has a good sense of who this person may have been. She joins us now live on the telephone from Purchase, New York.
Give us the type of person -- obviously, you don't know, Barbara, specifically who may have done this. But the universe of suspects, I take it, is rather small.
BARBARA ROSENBERG, FEDERATION OF AMERICAN SCIENTISTS: It certainly is. It's got to be someone who has had hands-on experience handling anthrax, and handling probably weaponized anthrax. And that cuts it down to a very small group of people, all of them, presumably, in the U.S. bioweapons program, or have been, working for a U.S. laboratory or a lab contractor.
And these are people who would be able to handle this very dangerous material without killing themselves. Also, people who would have access to the strain used, which is the strain that's in the hands of only a small number of laboratories, about 20. And to the method for weaponizing it, which is a secret method, known by only a very few people, classified information. So this has to be a person with a lot of access.
BLITZER: So we're talking about, what, hundreds, dozens, thousands? How many people would fit this profile?
ROSENBERG: We're talking under 50 people. And I think once you start weeding them out, it's got to be down to under 10.
BLITZER: And they're looking specifically, I take it, in the central New Jersey area where the letters were mailed from?
ROSENBERG: I can only say that, unless they have some very hot tip they're not letting on about, that this is a simplistic idea. Because there had to be some traveling involved. Nowhere in New Jersey is there a laboratory that has the Ames strain, which is found in the letters. So if the perpetrator comes from around New Jersey and is familiar with it, he certainly had to go somewhere else to get the Ames strain. I prefer to think that he probably got the Ames strain from someplace he is familiar, and came up to Trenton to mail, which is not an unusual thought.
I mean, Trenton is on the way between Washington and New York. People often travel that route, and he could well have just stopped off at random at a place. This is an intelligent person, a highly- trained scientist. He's not going to mail at his local mailbox.
BLITZER: And you suspect domestic, homegrown scientist, an American terrorist who may have done this, not somebody involved with overseas terrorism?
ROSENBERG: All the evidence points to it being American, and that's what all the government spokesmen are saying also. The White House has made the same comments. And Ridge said it only a couple days ago.
BLITZER: Yeah, he said it on my program a week ago Sunday, that it was probably a homegrown. That's the suspicion. So the letters which they dealt with September 11th, that was simply a smokescreen, do you think?
(AUDIO GAP)
BLITZER: Unfortunately, I think we have lost Barbara Hatch Rosenberg on the telephone, but if she can hear us, thanks for joining us, we'll have you back.
This note, tonight in CNN "WAR ROOM," we'll go live to Baghdad. And we'll have a debate on whether the U.S. should target Saddam Hussein next. That's at 7:00 Eastern, 4:00 Pacific. You can participate. Just go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. Click on "Send Questions" and I'll get as many of them to my panel as possible. The flights to Guantanamo are on hold. Learn the reason for the delay and hear about an ugly scene at Camp X-Ray. Later, security at the Super Bowl. Is there room for improvement in New Orleans? We'll ask the mayor. And we'll look at safety in Boston and Beaumont, Texas.
Also, the mayor who may become must-see TV. You'll want to see this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Let's go now to some of the problems that have been developing at Camp X-Ray. That's the detention center set up for Afghan war detainees at the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. At the moment, it's full. And some of those already there are causing a fuss. With the latest, our national correspondent, Bob Franken. He's on the phone from Guantanamo. What is the latest, Bob?
BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the latest is that they're building seriously these new cells, these eight by eight cubicals surrounded by chain-link fence, that have been so much in the controversy. They expect by tonight to have 60 more in place. And of course, the fact that they were near capacity caused a delay, at least, a temporary suspension in the almost daily flights, where they've been bringing detainees here. That could resume at any time.
There's no specific time when they're going to come, but it will not be before these cells have been constructed and tested out. They expect to have their full complement of 320 of them finished by the end of the month. Now, of course, there's been quite a bit of controversy about doubling up in case they need more capacity. One of the reasons they decided not to bring in a new flight is because they might have done that. That raises security concerns. And left unsaid, but clearly present in everyone's mind, it would also make even hotter the debate over the treatment of the prisoners that is raging worldwide. That is one of the concerns.
Security continues to be uppermost in the mind of the officials here. They say that there are sporadic incidents. One happened overnight. This time, according to the officials, one of the detainees spat at one of the guards, they moved in, they subdued him, which means that they manacled him, they took him to another section, calmed him down, and then returned him to his cell. So there's always a high degree of tension here, and it's something that the guards are constantly reminded of.
Remember, the guards in sight are unarmed, but they always outnumber significantly the people whom they're handling. Meanwhile, there is medical treatment still going on. Some of the detainees got surgery today. Altogether, five have, for broken limbs and some wounds, all of which have been received in combat -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Bob Franken at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Thanks, once again, for that report. And when we come back, it made billionaires ex-millionaires. Coming up, who will be held accountable for Enron's fall? And, look who's talking on the campaign trail. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
What did Enron executives know and when did they know it? A preview of tomorrow's congressional hearings with a subcommittee chairman in just a moment.
But, first, this hour's latest developments: The plane carrying John Walker is expected to land at nearby Washington-Dulles International Airport in just a few hours. Walker, the American who fought with the Taliban, is scheduled to appear tomorrow morning before a U.S. magistrate in nearby Alexandria, Virginia.
The Pentagon is holding off on moving more detainees from Afghanistan to the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The holding cells are nearing capacity. Sources say dozens of new cells should be completed by tomorrow. Right now, 158 detainees are at the base. Interrogations of the detainees are under way.
Investigators hope a doubling of the reward money in the anthrax investigation will lead them to new clues. The reward now stands at $2.5 million. Five deaths are blamed on the anthrax-tainted letters that moved through the Postal Service last fall.
Victims of terrorist attacks will benefit under a new tax-relief measure signed by President Bush. At today's signing ceremony, the president was surrounded by people who lost loved ones in the September 11 attacks, in the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building, and in the anthrax-tainted cases.
With lawmakers back at work on Capitol Hill, much of the talk is about the astounding collapse of Enron. The hearings are scheduled to start tomorrow. And who will show up? That's a big question. Today, at Enron's Houston headquarters, management was a no-show after scheduling a meeting with employees. It was postponed. And, in a memo, Enron's chairman explained he feared such a meeting would cause a media frenzy. Enron executives promise to hold a series of in-house meetings designed to protect employees' privacy.
Back here in Washington, 10 -- repeat 10 -- congressional committees and subcommittees are trying to trace the rise and fall of the energy giant. Among the people lawmakers most want to question is the outside auditor who was fired for shredding Enron-related documents.
Joining us now from Capitol Hill is Congressman James Greenwood of Pennsylvania. He's chairman of the Energy Subcommittee that opens hearings tomorrow morning.
Congressman, thanks so much for joining us.
What is your immediate objective tomorrow? REP. JAMES GREENWOOD (R), PENNSYLVANIA: Well, we have decided in this investigation that we will leave no stone unturned to get to the bottom of what happened with Enron.
And we learned early on, as we looked at the documents, as we talked to individuals at both Andersen and Enron, that documents were destroyed. So there is an urgency on our part to find out exactly who destroyed documents. When were they destroyed? What were on those documents? Can those documents be resurrected from cyberspace or from memory?
And what is very important here is: When did Andersen know that there might be litigation, there might be investigations that resulted from what happened to Enron? And did they continue to destroy documents after that? And we know that they did, but we need to find out on whose orders that happened.
BLITZER: As you know, there is a history of congressional hearings in these kinds of scandals. Are you prepared to grant immunity to witnesses in exchange for their open testimony?
GREENWOOD: No.
One of the central characters, of course, is Mr. David Duncan. Mr. Duncan was the Andersen employee, the partner in charge of the Enron account. He was fired by the head of the Andersen. And he has become the fall guy. We want him to come. He has refused to come. He has asked for immunity and we have turned him down on that.
We expect him to come tomorrow. He will be there, but I also expect that he will take the Fifth and won't be very cooperative with us.
BLITZER: So you will make him go through the process, stand up, and say that he is pleading the Fifth?
GREENWOOD: Yes. This man, David Duncan, came to our offices, was interviewed for 4 1/2 hours by our investigators and our attorneys. He told his story. And we think he ought to come and tell the Congress.
That he has chosen now, on the advise of his counsel, to invoke his Fifth Amendment rights of course is his right. But we want him to come to the committee and tell us that in person.
BLITZER: And do you have any way, though, of forcing individuals to testify if they don't want to?
GREENWOOD: Well, we do have the ability to bring a contempt of Congress (AUDIO GAP) for the subcommittee that we have to pass there and in the full committee in the House and turn that over to the Department of Justice. But we are not going to start there.
We have told Mr. Duncan that if he doesn't come tomorrow, we may very well consider that. But if he doesn't testify at all, we will use other witnesses (AUDIO GAP) BLITZER: Unfortunately, we had some technical problems with Congressman Greenwood. We appreciate it. I thank him very much for joining us. And we will talk to him after his hearings get started tomorrow morning, Congressman Greenwood of Pennsylvania.
And when it comes to protecting the homeland, they are on the front lines, but are the country's mayors getting everything they need? Coming up: my conversation with those who lead Boston, Beaumont, Texas and New Orleans. And, later: CNN's newest addition.
Stay with us.
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BLITZER: Welcome back.
In the nation's capital and cities around the United States, the watchword is security. About 300 mayors are focusing this week on just how safe their cities are and how to make them even safer without going broke.
CNN's Jeanne Meserve has more from the U.S. Conference of Mayors.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Homeland defense threatens to bust the budgets of some U.S. cities, according to a new survey by the U.S. Conference of Mayors.
MARC MORIAL, MAYOR OF NEW ORLEANS: From September 11 of last year through the end of this year, cities collectively will be spending more than $2.6 billion extra.
MESERVE: The average cost per city: $1.84 million. But some are spending much more. Chicago expects to shell out an extra $102 million, Miami $13 million. The mayors want the federal government to help foot the bill. And they got assurances Wednesday they will get -- quote -- "unprecedented support."
TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY DIRECTOR: Now, this unprecedented support that I'm talking to you about in this year's budget isn't a one-year-and-out initiative. This is a major investment.
MESERVE: No dollar figures yet, but a promise of a -- quote -- "significant amount" quickly. The Office of Homeland Security says the bulk of the money will be for training and equipment, which cities anticipate will be their biggest expense. But mayors will have the flexibility to use some of the money for another big-ticket item: overtime.
Ridge says the financial commitment reflects a new partnership on homeland security.
RIDGE: And I'm not talking about the old Washington definition of partnership, which goes something like this: "I'll tell you what to do or I'll tell you what you need and then you'll do it." This isn't about what Washington wants anymore. It's about what our cities, our communities, our regions and our states need.
MESERVE (on camera): That partnership will also involve beefing up the public health system, improving information-sharing and facilitating the flow of goods and people across borders without compromising security. The mayors will hear more detail when President Bush addresses them at the White House.
Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And joining me now: three of the mayors who have been participating in the meetings here in Washington: Mayor Marc Morial of New Orleans -- he is the president of the Conference of Mayors -- Mayor Thomas Menino of Boston; and mayor David Moore of Beaumont, Texas.
Thanks to all of you for joining us.
Mayor Morial, let me begin with you. You have a Super Bowl coming up -- I don't know if you know about this -- in New Orleans. And you have Mardi Gras.
MARC MORIAL, MAYOR, NEW ORLEANS: We might have Mayor Menino's team -- maybe.
BLITZER: Our CNN.com did a survey of the 30 biggest cities in the United States. New Orleans was among the less prepared, one reason being, as far as receive federal preparedness grants, you rank last among the 30 top cities you. How well prepared are you?
MORIAL: We are very well prepared. And CNN.com really was -- I think they were inaccurate in how they assessed security.
For example, with regard to the Super Bowl, we have a great relationship with the federal law enforcement agencies, particularly the Secret Service, because we have received a special event security designation. So, when people come to the Super Bowl, they are going to see an unprecedented visibility of police officers.
BLITZER: So the Secret Service will be helping you. They will be in charge, really, just as with the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City.
MORIAL: Exactly. Exactly. And I think that is going to help a lot. And I think people are going to feel it, sense it.
But the New Orleans Police Department, we do crowd control better than anyone in the country, because our experience is with nine Super Bowls, Sugar Bowls every year, Mardi Gras every year, large people events.
BLITZER: Mayor Menino of Boston, on the CNN.com chart 30 top cities, you were also not the lowest, but among the less prepared. One reason, in the survey, your city ranked last for transportation capabilities, getting around in an emergency kind of situation if, God forbid, terrorists struck.
THOMAS MENINO, MAYOR OF BOSTON: Well, let me just tell you, we disagreed with that evaluation of our city. And we called them about it.
BLITZER: CNN.com.
MENINO: CNN.com.
We don't think those numbers are valid at all, because, when we had the 9/11, we were able to evacuate our city in an hour and a half. And we're able to deal with those issues. And we have been planning this thing for six years. Remember, Y2K, we had a bioterrorism attack. Well, we had people down in Emmitsville (ph) training. And, September 13, we were going to have a simulated disaster in Boston. So we are ready for it. And I don't understand those numbers at all.
BLITZER: Well, I will let you take it up with CNN.com.
Mayor Moore of the Beaumont,Texas, as you say, the best kept secret out in Texas over there -- you have unusual problems as far as dealing with the potential threat of terrorism -- relatively small city. But why?
DAVID MOORE, MAYOR OF BEAUMONT: Well, a medium-sized city in America, there things that are very attractive. We have a great port. We have a large petrochemical base. And we have a lot in terms of infrastructure that people would be very interested in. The intrastate highway goes through out community as well.
Those are the types of things that could become targets. And those are the types of things that we are focusing on. And we're making sure that we are putting our best foot forward to protect that infrastructure as well as protect our citizens.
BLITZER: Are you are getting enough money, help from the federal government?
MOORE: Not yet. We are hoping after our conversation with the president tomorrow morning that he will understand that bringing the dollars to our communities, bringing the dollars to the local cities, possibly in the form of block-grant funding, will help us have the level of flexibility that we need to either fund overtime, buy additional equipment or utilize the personnel in the best manner possible.
BLITZER: Mayor Morial, you are the chairman, you are the head of the Mayors Conference. What is the main thing you want from President Bush when you meet with him tomorrow?
MORIAL: A homeland security block grant. And that would be a pool of funds available to all cities, based on population and need, that we could use to assist in the fight against terrorism. We are the domestic troops.
And this is a two-front we are fighting in America. And our police officers and our firefighters ought to be as well equipped and as properly resourced as the soldiers who are fighting the war in Afghanistan.
BLITZER: But, right now, do you have the money you need to deal with the immediate potential problems? You have the Super Bowl, Mardi Gras.
MORIAL: We are doing the very best we can, which is a good job, but we can do better. And we must do better, because we should spare no resource in making sure that our cities are safe and secure.
BLITZER: Mayor Menino, you are going to be the next chairman of the Mayors Conference after Mayor Morial. But, when you look at the particular problems that Boston has right now, money is probably the top of your problems.
MENINO: Money is a top priority you. But security is No. 1 in our city, making sure our city works. It has cost us about $2 million additionally over our budget to make sure our city is secure.
BLITZER: Two million dollars?
MENINO: Two million dollars.
BLITZER: That doesn't sound like a whole lot of money.
MORIAL: Not by Washington standards.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: In Washington, they talk only in billions you, but you are talking about millions.
MENINO: Well, see, the problem is, those billions aren't coming to cities. In cities -- mayors are the first line of defense in this whole war. And we have to get reimbursed. I think the president, when he talks tomorrow morning, will talk about some of the reimbursement that goes to municipalities, because without us, it will not work.
MORIAL: Let me add another thing, too, Wolf.
BLITZER: Yes.
MORIAL: The other side of the coin is that, because of the economic downturn, which was exacerbated by 9/11, our sales tax collections are off. Our revenue picture is off.
So we have got the pressure to spend more money on security, which we're going to do, as well as the fact that our budgetary revenues are being diminished. So we want a homeland security block grant. But we also want a meaningful, realistic economic stimulus program that is going to help American cities and create jobs in our cities.
BLITZER: Do you feel that you have somebody who is hearing your problems, the homeland security director, the former governor, Tom Ridge?
MOORE: We have had two audiences with the former governor, Ridge. And we have had a great discussion about what is essential to our local communities. We have talked about three key factors: proper communication, trading information between their agencies and our local municipalities, and the fact that we need funding that would take us to the next level, give us the opportunity to make sure that we are putting the dollars where the cities know they need to be, as opposed to getting a mandate stating that this is how money will be spent.
Mayor Morial spoke to it -- and very eloquently. We need a block-grant-type funding for homeland security that would give each municipality the opportunity to do what is in the best interest for that city, its infrastructure and its citizen.
BLITZER: I guess it's fair to say, Mayor Menino, that no city in the United States is adequately prepared for, God forbid, a chemical or a biological terrorist attack.
MENINO: Oh, we're adequately prepared.
BLITZER: You are adequately prepared?
MENINO: I believe we are.
BLITZER: For a real, serious biological or chemical attack?
MENINO: We have been training for this for the last six years. It's not something new to us in Boston. And most cities have been working on it.
BLITZER: Are you prepared for that in New Orleans?
MORIAL: We are prepared. But, Wolf, the most important thing is, we can be better prepared, because the type of things we are dealing with today -- we all have offices of emergency preparedness. We have all done disaster preparation.
It's mostly been in the area of weather emergencies and maybe low-grade or low-level spills and that sort of thing. Now we are dealing with a whole new range of threats. The federal government has the information, has the knowledge, has the know-how. We have the people. Together with the resources, we can make sure that this nation is safe and secure and our cities are safe and secure.
MENINO: And one of things we have to -- the high alerts they put us on, I think that's very frustrating for us in cities, because it freezes your city for a certain period of time. And they don't tell you if it's your city or some other city. And so you have bring out the troops and make sure you have police officers out there, and fire. Would had an LNG issue just recently coming into Boston Harbor.
It's a new world. And when they talk about being responsive, Tom Ridge, I will tell you, communication is key with him. I have talked to him several times about LNGs. He has been very responsive to Boston.
BLITZER: All right, Mayor Menino, Mayor Morial and Mayor Moore, thanks to all three of you coming. I know you are going to be going off to New York, taking the conference up to New York. And good luck to you. Good luck to you. And good luck to all of you.
MORIAL: Thank you.
MENINO: Thank you.
MOORE: Thank you very much.
BLITZER: Thank you very much.
And who should play Rudy? Perhaps Robert Duvall or James Wood or Daniel Travanti? Those are some of the actors being mentioned for a TV movie that is expected to be made about the former New York mayor, Rudy Giuliani. A film company has just bought the rights to a biography of Giuliani. The movie is expected to air this year.
And, once again, the cameras have caught up with Gary Condit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GARY CONDIT (D), CALIFORNIA: Let me tell you what. You are not going to decide it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Coming up: more on his message to the media and how he is faring on the campaign trail. And later: a homecoming for the carrier that saw action in Enduring Freedom. We will be there live.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Let's check these stories on today's "Newswire": Gary Condit on the stump in a bid to win reelection to Capitol Hill. Despite the controversy over his link to the still unsolved case of the missing intern Chandra Levy, the California Congressman says his fate will be decided by the voters and not by the news media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GARY CONDIT (D), CALIFORNIA: You are not going to decide it. The pundits on the East Coast aren't going to decide it. The people outside this district aren't going to decide it. The people inside this district will make that decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Connie Chung has a new employer and a new show. The veteran television news reporter has said goodbye to ABC and signed on with us, CNN. Chung will host an hour-long prime-time news program. She says she couldn't be happier. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: It is what every reporter dreams about. And that is an on all-news network dedicated to news.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Welcome to Connie Chung, a welcome addition to all of us here at CNN.
And let's go live to New York now and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins at the top of the hour. Kathleen Hays is filling in for Lou tonight.
Kathleen, tell us what you've got.
KATHLEEN HAYS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Thank, Wolf.
Coming up tonight: We'll have the latest on the Enron scandals, including the canceled meetings with employees and an auditor's refusal to testify about document-shredding. We'll hear from Boeing CEO Phil Condit on how he plans to turn around a 79 percent plunge in profits. We will talk to an economist who says the recession is over and the recovery has begun -- all of that and more at the top of the hour -- now back to Wolf in Washington.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Kathleen. We will be watching.
And a homecoming for service men and service women who were the first to be dispatched in the war against terrorism -- next, it was flags, tears and cheers as the carrier arrived into port. We'll go there live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Thousands of sailors on board the USS Carl Vinson are shedding their sea legs. They are back on dry land. The aircraft carrier, which launched the first airstrikes on Afghanistan, returned home to Bremerton in Washington state just a short time ago.
CNN's Lilian Kim joins us now live with the story -- Lilian?
LILIAN KIM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the USS Carl Vinson is now back home. And although it's cold and rainy, the people here don't mind a bit, because they are now reunited with their loved ones who have been away at sea for such a long time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): The long wait is now finally over. After six months at sea, the USS Carl Vinson is back at its home port in Bremerton, Washington, an emotional homecoming for thousands of families eager to greet their loved ones.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like I have paid America for my freedom to give my son to go fight for more freedom so people could be free. And that to me is indescribable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am so excited. I have so many different emotions right now, excitement, but nervous.
KIM: The USS Carl Vinson became a star player in the war against terrorism. The aircraft carrier was the first to launch airstrikes against Afghanistan. Its plane dropped more than two million pounds of bombs.
For the thousands of families, the six-month deployment was more stressful than usual. For weeks following the September 11 attacks, the military cut off all contact to the ship due to security reasons. But now that the crew is back home, these sailors can reconnect with their loved ones.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were really worried because of where they were at. And we had no idea if anything happened. But I'm so glad that I can talk to him now.
(on camera): After today's homecoming celebration, half the crew will get a 15-day leave. The other half will have to return to work as early as tomorrow.
Lilian Kim, CNN, Bremerton, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: A well-deserved leave.
And this note, this programming note: You can learn more about life aboard a carrier at war this Saturday 8:00 p.m. Eastern in a special "CNN PRESENTS."
And I'll be back here in the CNN "War Room" in just one hour. We'll have a debate whether the United States should target Iraq next in the U.S. war against terrorism.
Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. CNN's coverage of America's new war continues with "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That begins right now.
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