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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Bush Administration Sends Warning to Arafat; Will U.S. Overstay Its Welcome in Central Asia?

Aired January 25, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: THE WAR ROOM. More terrorism in the Middle East. The Bush administration warns Yasser Arafat to crack down or else.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: So he knows what he needs to do, and of course the United States has a full range of options available to us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Mission Creep: as it deploys forces in neighboring countries to support the Afghanistan campaign, will the U.S. overstay its welcome?

We will hear from our correspondents and I'll speak live with Robert Oakley, former ambassador to Pakistan; Paul Bremer, former ambassador at large for counter terrorism; and just back from with Guantanamo Bay, Congressman Darrell Issa of the House International Relations Committee as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening, I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. President Bush's currently weighing conflicting advice from some of his top aides. Some say he should immediately cut ties with Yasser Arafat, they accuses the Palestinian leader of supporting terrorism against Israel, but other aides caution such a step could actually undermine the U.S. war against terrorism.

The violence in the Middle East flared anew today. A number of injuries were reported as Israeli jets struck Palestinian security installations in Gaza and the West Bank. Israel was retaliating for yet another suicide bombing this time in Tel Aviv where an assailant set off a blast killing himself and wounding 22 others.

After a series of warnings the Bush administration may be ready to punish Yasser Arafat. Let's go live to our senior White House correspondent John King who is covering this story. John, some of the president's advisers are not necessarily on the same page in dealing with this issue.

JOHN KING, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Certainly not exactly, Wolf. There is unanimity, we are told, that more must be done. That the administration must take a tougher line now, because it is so disappointed with Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat. As you noted, though, some disagreements, the vice president and the defense secretary said to be in the camp that prefers a tough line, perhaps even breaking relations with the Palestinian Authority, the secretary of state, Colin Powell, prefers more incremental sanctions if Yasser Arafat doesn't -- quote -- "Step up to the plate soon," in the words of one senior administration official.

This debate playing out today in a national security council meeting here at the White House, a short time after that session, Mr. Bush would not give any hint as to which way he is leaning, but he did make clear, just why this debate over sanctions is under way.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am disappointed in Yasser Arafat. He must make a full effort to route out terror in the Middle East. In order for there to be peace, we have to rout out terror and ordering up weapons that were intercepted on a boat headed for that part of the world is not part of fighting terror. That's enhancing terror, and obviously I'm very disappointed in him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Among the sanctions being debated, the dramatic steps of severing ties with the Palestinian Authority, lesser sanctions could be adding Arafat's security force to the U.S. list of terrorist groups, closing the Palestinian Authority's office here in Washington or ending or suspending the mission of the U.S. special Mid-East envoy Anthony Zinni, a retired Marine general. All this playing out again at a debate here at the White House, tonight.

Earlier today, Secretary of State Powell left that meeting, his mission was to call Yasser Arafat and convey the sense of urgency here in Washington to make clear to the Palestinian leader he is running out of time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POWELL: He knows what is expected of the Palestinian Authority and of him as the leader of that authority, if we are ever going to go forward and get toward a cease fire and then into a cease fire, so that the Mitchell process can begin. And we can get to negotiations that will bring a satisfactory solution to this -- this crisis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The frustration we are told, Wolf, reached a boiling point when Mr. Arafat continues again and again and again to deny any Palestinian Authority role in that arms shipment that Israel seized earlier this month. U.S. officials say not only Israeli intelligence, but also U.S. now has compelling evidence that top aides to Arafat were involved. They want Mr. Arafat to acknowledge that quickly and to arrest and detain those aides. No deadline for deciding on sanctions, we're told by senior officials. But again, administration officials say if Arafat doesn't act soon, it won't be long -- Wolf.

BLITZER: But John, the downside presumably would be the coalition that the president has put together, including many of the more moderate Arab nations supporting the United States. They support the Palestinian leader. Would the U.S. war against terrorism presumably be undermined if the U.S. were to take that drastic step by severing ties with Arafat?

KING: It is obviously, Wolf, a very complicated debate, but even on that question administration say there are two sides, yes in the Arab world there would be great disappoint if the United States broke with the Palestinian Authority, isolated Arafat, a move that would certainly undermine him internationally. Moderate Arab states would probably be, would definitely be the White House says upset with the United States.

On the other hand, what about other countries involved in the war on terrorism? Pressure on Musharraf of Pakistan to crack down on terror groups in his country, how can the president make the case every day, and he did it yet again today, administration officials say that if you harbor terrorists, if you give them safe haven, you will be held accountable if the United States has evidence that Yasser Arafat is doing just that and doesn't do anything about it.

BLITZER: John King at the White House, thanks very much. And was Secretary of State Colin Powell the target of an assassination plot? "Newsweek" magazine reports that when Powell made a high profile visit to Kabul last week, Afghan security forces foiled a series of planned terrorist attacks, including bombings and a rocket barrage. Meeting today with his Afghan counterpart, Powell shrugged off the report.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POWELL: There's also a general level of threat, wherever I travel and there was nothing specific that day that it was of concern to me. And the chairman and I just -- I mean the foreign minister and I just discussed it coming down in the elevator and he wasn't aware of any threat at that time, either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The secretary immediate with Dr. Abdullah Abdullah, Afghanistan's foreign minister ahead of Monday's visit to the White House by Hamid Karzai, he is the leader, of course, of the new Afghan interim government.

It's been easy to understand the initial goal of the U.S.-led war on terrorism: hunt down al Qaeda and Taliban forces in Afghanistan. But the recently expanded presence of U.S. forces in Central Asia raises this question: What's next? Our national security correspondent David Ensor looks for answers.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Afghanistan, American soldiers are in plane sight, but the troops in Pakistan stay well away from cameras. Except when a dignitary visits so do American troops based elsewhere in the region. That is the way those nations and the Bush administration want it, out of sight, out of mind.

Since September 11, the U.S. has put forces in four countries, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan, where sources say major work is being done on an old Soviet base, suggesting the Americans plan to stay a while. In a fifth country, Tajikistan U.S. officials have also surveyed bases for possible use. What's the strategy? Ask Bush administration officials that, and they frankly admit they're not sure yet.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: That is a subject that we are looking at, we are considering.

ANATOLE LIEVEN, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: They said of the British Empire that it was acquired in a fit of absence of mind. That he British, a lot of time, didn't know what they were doing. That could be the case with America, as well.

ENSOR: For the U.S., the potential pitfalls in Central Asia are many, take America's new friend Islam Karimov Uzbekistan's autocratic ruler. He reminds some of America's old friend, the shah of Iran. The U.S. is still paying for embracing the shah too tightly.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: In the past when we've ever had association with oppressive regimes, there have been consequences from that. We have got to be aware of those consequences.

ENSOR: Then there are the uneasy and powerful neighbors; so far Russia, China and Iran have endorsed or at least acquiesced in the U.S. military deployments in Central Asia, but already there are mutterings that Washington might try to use its muscle to influence where new oil and gas pipelines might go in the region.

LIEVEN: Are these bases, in other words, going to remain narrowly focused on the war against terrorism or could they, as the Russians and the Chinese fear actually become bases for the expansion of local American geo-political influence.

ENSOR: And then there's the danger already seen in, for example, Saudi Arabia that U.S. troops on the ground could be resented by some, and be a target as at Khobar Towers in 1996, for Islamic extremists.

CLARK: I think there's always the possibility that our forces are vulnerable to action against them by extremist elements, absolutely.

ENSOR (on camera): No one in Washington has yet seriously questioned the big new American military deployments in Central Asia, words like mission creep and exit strategy have yet to be used. But even analysts who strongly support the deployment, say that the Bush administration needs to say more soon about how many troops are going to say in what countries for how many years.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: So is the United States getting in too deeply in South and Central Asia. And what should the Bush administration do about Yasser Arafat?

Joining me here in the CNN "War Room," Congressman Darrell Issa of the House International Relations Committee, he literally just back from a visit to the U.S. detention center at Guantanamo Bay. Robert Oakley, he is a former United States ambassador to Pakistan. Paul Bremer he is a former U.S. ambassador at large for counter terrorism, he is now charge of the Marsh Crisis Consulting Group here in Washington.

You can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to us. Simply go to my Web page, CNN.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily online column.

Gentlemen, thanks for joining us. And, congressman, let me start with you. We are going to get you what you saw first hand. You saw those detainees earlier today. But first of all, the Bush administration and the decision it must make on Yasser Arafat. Would it be wise to sever ties with the Palestinian leader right now?

REP. DARRELL ISSA (R-CA), INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS COMMITTEE: I don't think so. I think that we have to stay engaged with the Palestinian Authority. The real question I would have is is he a bad man or a bad manager? And I would assert that he's a bad manager, that his portfolio is too big, that he is probably the appropriate chairman, the appropriate face to the Arab world. But he's not the day to day manager. He's a micromanager. He's not running the police force. He's not meeting the responsibilities of a president or, in fact, of a chief operating officer.

BLITZER: So you want him to be more of a figurehead leader?

ISSA: I really believe he needs to move -- as most 71-year-old men with some severe health problems need to do, move to a less hands- on position and allow younger leaders that are more engaged to do their job. Also, to be honest, he's trying to be the good guy and the bad guy. You can't be both. He needs an enforcer.

BLITZER: Ambassador Bremer, you know that region quite well. What do you think?

PAUL BREMER, FORMER U.S. COUNTERTERRORISM AMBASSADOR: I'm much more skeptical about Arafat I think than the congressman is. I think it's quite clear that he does not have the capability of making peace now. And, in effect, what we are going to see is a civil war among the Palestinians. And until we get a group of Palestinian leaders who really do want to make peace, we are going to continue to have this low level, sometimes high level of violence there.

I don't see how the administration can do nothing in face of Arafat's continued denial of the smuggling of this 50 tons of weapons. I think they're going to have to take some steps. Closing the office here in Washington might make sense. Cutting off American taxpayer funds that go to the Palestinian Authority and maybe funneling them through other organizations so you get them to the Palestinian people. I think there has to be some penalty or the whole idea of fighting terrorism becomes somewhat hollow.

BLITZER: Ambassador Oakley, you know that region quite well as -- you've worked there, served there. What would that do if the U.S. were to sever completely the relationship with Yasser Arafat?

ROBERT OAKLEY, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO PAKISTAN: I agree with the congressman. He said the last time we saw each other was in Cairo, as a matter of fact. It would be a big mistake so far as the moderate Arabs that are concerned who are with us.

On the other hand, I rather like his idea keeping Arafat there as sort of a symbolic thing and insisting that we have some better managers and maybe we should put the money in some other way so he doesn't get a chance to skim it or to waste it. He's never been a manager. I started working with him in 1971 when I was in Beirut. He's always been a manueverer, a manipulator. He's not been a leader. And we ought to do something about that.

BLITZER: You were engaged in some of those secret back channels to the Palestinians before it was fashionable or even allowed under U.S. policy, as I recall. But that's a subject for another matter.

Let's take an e-mail question from Gloria in Charleston, West Virginia: "Has the United States put any effort into encouraging someone else to step forward and lead the Palestinians", which is presumably, Congressman, what you want to do?

ISSA: I don't think we have and I think that one of our challenges is not to do it against the Palestinian Authority, but with them. There are plenty of leaders. Some of them we know very well, some of them the public even knows, that have never been allowed to be in charge because Yasser Arafat as a probably a bad manager, and I would say not necessarily a bad man but clearly a bad manager, has always kept sort of everything coming to him. And it's really time for people who have studied each of these people to encourage that their portfolios and their authority be added too.

BLITZER: Robert Malley, a former aide to former President Clinton, the Middle East specialist at the NSC writes in today's "New York Times"this, among other things: "The United States also says the onus is on Mr. Arafat and passively looks on, occasionally dispatching its special envoy, when the situation looks better, keeping him home as soon as events take a turn for the worse. Today, that is what passes for policy."

He's clearly blaming the U.S., at least partially, for this horrible situation that has evolved.

BREMER: Well, I think that's the wrong way around. You've got a situation where neither party in the Middle East right now is ready for peace. It doesn't seem to me that General Zinni, the good man that he is, really has much to work with. I don't see much point in sending him out there again until there is some kind of an element of what he can work with.

And I think it simply has to be the case that Arafat and the Palestinian Authority have to pay some kind of a price in terms of American policy for this effort to upset the balance of power there, which is what the smuggling of this huge amount of arms really amounted to. That can't go unpunished.

BLITZER: But if the U.S. were to step out and sort of walk away from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict right now and leave it to the Israelis and the Palestinians, couldn't this currently bad situation become a whole lot worse very quickly?

OAKLEY: I'm not sure it would get any worse. It's pretty bad as it is. But I think the...

BLITZER: A whole lot more could be much worse than what we are seeing right now.

OAKLEY: The symbolism of the United States washing its hands would be a mistake and the administration in the beginning was very reluctant to get involved. Given what's happened, you can understand that. Nevertheless, the United States has to be part of the equation out there.

BLITZER: All right. Stand by, we are going to take a quick break. We have a lot more to talk about. When we come back, we'll switch gears. We will have a report from Guantanamo Bay. And I'll ask Congressman Issa what it was like to come face to face earlier today with those Afghan Taliban and al Qaeda detainees. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. U.S. lawmakers got a look inside Camp X- ray yesterday and today. They were on the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba to see first hand the conditions detainees face. Our national correspondent, Bob Franken, is there and he has details of their tour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Because your elected representatives, the general said to the members of Congress, you will get in there. Not everyone gets in there. And as the cameras watched from the customary 200 yards away, 25 members of the House and Senate got a close-up look at Camp X-ray and the prison conditions that have caused such a worldwide controversy.

SEN. JAMES INHOFE (R), OKLAHOMA: We are giving very good treatment to these people, quite frankly, I personally think better than they deserve. We're dealing with terrorists here.

FRANKEN: That was a variation on the reaction from each of the members. They spent about an hour inside, walking very close to the cells but they had no conversations with the detainees, who had no earthly idea who these people were. It was a non-stop briefing, and at one point, the group walked past an inmate who has become one of the most infamous.

REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R), FLORIDA: They pointed out who was the one who said that he committed to killing an American. And I think it really sent chills in our delegation as we passed through his detention cell. I think we practiced or evil eye on him.

FRANKEN: Several members of the congressional delegation told CNN that detainee was the Australian national. The tour also included a look at the new interrogation sheds where investigators will pursue one of the main objectives here.

REP. STEVE BUYER (R), INDIANA: It is the primary purpose is for military utility, to gather information for national security so we can understand the network of the terrorist to save lives.

FRANKEN (on camera): This tour was organized by the Department of Defense under the assumption that members of Congress would be receptive to the contention that the United States has nothing to be ashamed of here. Clearly, that was a correct assumption.

Bob Franken, CNN, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And we are back here in the CNN War Room with one of those members of Congress who actually was at Guantanamo Bay earlier today, Congressman Issa. What did you see? You saw these detainees up close. What's your impression, how they're being treated?

ISSA: They're being treated very well. Oddly enough, the conditions they live in -- because these facilities were built for them on brand new pads, very clean, with plenty of separation -- they actually live in better conditions than our military people who are living in tents, dusty and with less ventilation.

Is it tough? Yes. This is 85 degrees, the Caribbean sun with just sitting in the shade all day and reading their prayer books. I know that seems cruel and inhumane, but compared to freezing conditions in Afghanistan, where there are no significant amounts of good central heating, I think these people are in fact being treated very well.

Up until now, they've received tremendous medical support. They've been gaining weight on their three meals a day, something they haven't had probably in their whole lives. These conditions, though, are basic, and they're basic not because we want them to be, but because this is a facility that in the past had much lower security refugees, and it wasn't prepared for these.

BLITZER: Did you have a chance to actually speak to any of these detainees?

ISSA: No. We made it a point to look at them, to listen to them, but not to speak to them or engage in conversation. We felt that that would not be appropriate.

BLITZER: Ambassador Oakley, you know that around the world in many places, especially in Europe, there's a lot of criticism of the United States for the way the U.S. is dealing with these detainees. How should the U.S. respond to that?

OAKLEY: Well, politely, but say, we understand what we are doing and we are doing it properly. They have the International Red Cross down there. They've been there, they're staying there permanently. Therefore, they're responsible for seeing whether there are any abuses, and they have not found any.

BLITZER: Do you think the United States should be doing anything else beyond what it's been doing right now in terms of international public opinion?

BREMER: Well, I think we ought to be speaking very bluntly to our friends in Europe. These people are killers. These people rioted and killed people in Mazar-e Sharif, perhaps including an American. These people have declared they want to kill Americans now. They are terrorists. We want to get as much information as we can from them. We understand from the government that they in fact have found information of use from these guys that maybe has saved some other American lives, and I think the Europeans ought to just back down a little bit. I'm kind of tired of them criticizing it.

BLITZER: Ambassador Oakley, you know Hamid Karzai. He is coming to meet President Bush Monday here in Washington. He will be at the White House. Give us your assessment of this man.

OAKLEY: Hamid has always been a nice man; he's turning out to be a great man. And two years ago, when his father was assassinated, profound change. He's grown so rapidly since then, and since he got in the middle of this conflict and decided to exert leadership and has succeeded in doing so -- he's totally selfless, Wolf, and that's the great thing about him. Nobody thinks he's trying to do something for himself.

He's reaching out, trying to make deals with others -- not deals, but work with others, like the Northern Alliance. He's done a superb job so far. And I think he will get a boost from the pledging conference, and one hopes that -- well, another boost today from the designation of the committee for the loya jirga, the national council, which will be a big boost. He's also, though, got to work hard to make sure the assistance and the political side and the security side are used to reign in these warlords around the country, and that's going to be a tough job.

BLITZER: Let me ask Ambassador Bremer that specific question. Can he do that? Can he reign in all these warlords and still control big chunks of Afghanistan?

BREMER: Well, he can do it if we help him, and if we can get the Iranians, for example, to stop aiding the warlord in Herat that they've been supporting. But Afghanistan has never been ruled very tightly from the center. It's not part of its history for several millennia. So we shouldn't expect that we're suddenly going to wake up with a beautiful federal state there one day. It's going to be pretty rough.

BLITZER: Will Congress go ahead and support the enormous sums of funds that the Bush administration wants to provide to help rebuild Afghanistan?

ISSA: I'm sure we will. The fact is that this administration came in saying they weren't going to get into nation building. In this case, this is not about nation building. This is about preventing what has happened from happening again. This is putting in a system that allows this nation to deter future conduct like the Taliban, and in this case it's in our self interest. It is a savings to spend this money.

BLITZER: All right, Congressman Issa, welcome back from the day trip to Guantanamo Bay. I've done that trip myself. Good to have you back here in the United States on U.S. shore. Ambassador Bremer, Ambassador Oakley, always good to have both of you here in the CNN War Room. Thank you very much.

And this program reminder: I'll have a special interview with Hamid Karzai, he's chairman, of course, of the interim Afghan government. Join me for that Monday at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

And we will be back in just a moment with a quick check of this hour's late developments. The Enron scandal may -- may have claimed a life. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's tonight -- no, that's not correct. Here's a look at some of the latest developments, including this: A missile test in India. The short-range device can carry nuclear warheads. India's rival Pakistan criticized the test, as did the U.S., Britain and Germany. India and Pakistan remain split over the Kashmir region and have mobilized nearly a million troops along their border.

The former vice chairman of Enron was found Friday dead of a gunshot wound to the head. Police say J. Clifford Baxter apparently killed himself, and that a suicide note was found. Baxter quit Enron last May after making nearly $22 million selling company stock. A letter from Enron Vice President Sherron Watkins to then-Chairman Ken Lay said Baxter had, quote, "complained mightily about the inappropriateness of Enron's dealings with one of its limited partnerships."

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again Monday, twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. And remember, Monday I'll have a special interview with Afghanistan's interim leader Hamid Karzai. That's the day he meets with President Bush at the White House. And Sunday on "LATE EDITION," I'll speak with the White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card. That's Sunday, noon Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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