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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Can Olympic Officials Prevent Another Judging Meltdown?; Will Afghanistan Ever Be Back to Normal?; Is U.S. Ready to Launch New Offensive Against Terrorism?

Aired February 15, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID PELLETIER, FIGURE SKATER: We're happy that justice was done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Olympic officials decide there's enough gold to go around. But how can they prevent the next judging meltdown? I'll ask former Olympic figure skating medalist Debi Thomas.

Assassination in Afghanistan, where violence remains an everyday occurrence. Will things ever get back to normal? We'll go live to Kabul.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We face an enemy that is determined to kill Americans by any means, on any scale, and on our soil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Vice President Cheney says terrorists must be utterly destroyed, and warns of aggressive action against countries which support them. Is the U.S. ready to launch a new offensive? I'll ask Senator John Edwards of the Intelligence Committee.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

It's happened before, under different circumstances, but this time there was so much more publicity. Today, after nearly a week of controversy, the International Olympic Committee moved to end a firestorm of protest. Olympics and skating officials announced the suspension of a French judge for misconduct, and announced that Canada's figure skating team of Jamie Sale and David Pelletier will be awarded gold medals. The Russian pair will keep theirs as well.

Let's go live to CNN's Rusty Dornin. She joins us from Salt Lake City -- Rusty.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, you know, the furor have been building all week after, of course, Monday night's performance. And then late last night things became fast an furious. Apparently, the International Skating Union held an emergency meeting where they, after pressure from the International Olympic Committee, where they voted to award another gold medal to the Canadians. Then of course there was a joint press conference today where they announced misconduct on the part of a French judge. They said that was what prompted it, and they did award the gold medal to the Canadian skaters, who say that they are very happy with the outcome.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PELLETIER: We are happy that justice was done. And that doesn't take away anything from Elena and Anton. This is not -- this was not something against them. It was something against the system. And we also hope that the inquiries won't stop here, but that will keep on going.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DORNIN: Now, the French judge was suspended indefinitely. Already the French Olympic Committee has come out and said that this was very unfair, that there were four other judges involved, that it was very unfair to just blame it all on the French judge. The Canadian skaters in this case say they just hope the investigation continues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACQUES ROGGE, PRESIDENT, IOC: The IOC has already addressed the issue of subjective judgment in other sports, like in boxing, where we had very fruitful talks within national boxing federations that led to changes and modifications in the judgment, and you know, the system of the computer who brings in fairness and transparency and visibility. I want to stress that, of course, this is a matter for the international federations, but we will talk with all the international federations who have subjective judgment, and discuss with them to see where and when we can improve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DORNIN: Now it looks like we will just be awaiting the ceremony for the French (sic) skaters. Apparently it will be on Thursday either before or after the women's figure skating. They will raise the French (sic) flag, and the Canadian pair will receive their gold -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Rusty, I mentioned earlier that there have been other cases, similar but very different circumstances, if you will. What was the precedent that set the stage for today's decision?

DORNIN: Well, apparently in 1924, there was a Norwegian skier who was awarded an extra bronze medal, because 50 years later an Olympic historian went back and looked at the marks, and apparently they had been computed incorrectly. Then in 1992 at the Barcelona Games, in a synchronized swimming event, apparently a judge had entered an incorrect number into the computer.

Now, that athlete was not awarded the gold medal until a year later, so here we are now very different situation. These are not computational errors, but the thing that is amazing is that the first time it took 50 years, the second time it took a year, here we have four or five days. So unprecedented here -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Rusty Dornin in Utah, thank you very much for that report.

So what can Olympic officials and figure skating community leaders do to make sure the next big event isn't troubled by a judging controversy? Joining me now from Salt Lake City is Debi Thomas. She won a bronze medal in figure skating in the 1988 Olympics, and held both national and world figure skating titles. She is the only African-American to medal in the winter games. She went on to become a doctor.

Dr. Thomas, thanks for joining us. Tell us if this was the right decision that was made today.

DEBI THOMAS, FORMER OLYMPIC MEDALIST: I think it's a long time in coming. I think anybody who's ever been in the sport of figure skating knows that it's a highly subjective sport, and I think we've all been at the end of what we thought was not necessarily fair as the way we were judged. But I think the difference here was that it was really pretty blatantly obvious to most people, not just spectators but also those involved in the skating world, that this should not have come out this way.

It is interesting. I've been watching the news and trying to figure out exactly how they came to the conclusion. I know they were talking about it one time using the alternate judge's scores, and for me personally -- I mean, I'm sort of a mathematical person and I kind of like things to make sense -- and I think -- I think they probably do need to investigate this more. I mean, if they're really going to accuse a judge of misconduct and award a gold medal based on that, you ,know they may even need to consider completely throwing out those scores and using the alternate judge's scores. And if they were to do that, that might actually change some of the other places as well.

BLITZER: Was the French judge who was suspended for misconduct, was she made the scapegoat?

THOMAS: Probably. You know, certainly there's a nine-judge panel, and when 96 percent of the world thought that the Canadians won the event, obviously there's a, you know, a great discrepancy in the percentages of judges favoring the Russians to the Canadians. So I wouldn't doubt that, you know, it may be some sort of a conspiracy theory, though for many, many years the quote-unquote "block judging" has been there, and we've always sort of just taken it.

And you know, I've myself sat on one of the U.S. figure stating strategic planning committees, and we have spoken about this type of judging problems that we've had. It's been notoriously shown in ice dancing, because it is such more of a subjective type of event than the others, because there are not technical moves and things that you can compare skaters with.

But it is a problem. It's always been there. There have been deals made and things like that. And you know, since I'm not in figure skating anymore, I can get away with saying it.

BLITZER: Well, Debi, let me ask you -- let me ask you, do you believe this controversy will result in some real reform, that corruption, if there was some sort of corruption, will be removed from the sport?

THOMAS: I'm certainly hoping that it does. Obviously, anybody who is thinking about, you know, cheating, so to speak, is going to think twice before they do it. You know, as a skater -- all of the skaters, no matter who they are, they've worked hard to get here. It's very difficult to go out and under the pressure and perform your best. And really all you want is just to be awarded fairly.

But I learned a long, long time ago to skate for myself, and to be proud of myself when I did the best that I could, because I knew that I didn't necessarily have a whole lot of control over the outcome. But it's difficult in this day and age when, you know, money can even come into play with figure skating gold versus silver and how many millions of dollars you've lost by not having the gold medal.

BLITZER: Debi, as I look at some of the pictures we've been showing of you from that 1988 performance of yours, I remember how proud all of us were of your Olympic performance. Thanks so much for joining us tonight.

THOMAS: Certainly. Thank you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

And now, let's turn to the war against terrorism. Vice President Dick Cheney today made one of his rare public appearances, speaking to the Council on Foreign Relations here in Washington. He offered some tough talk on terrorism, and on countries that may support it. Our national security correspondent David Ensor joins us now from our Washington bureau -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, on Iraq, the vice president made clear that the United States will use all means at its disposal -- military, diplomatic, intelligence -- to address U.S. concerns about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Though some of America's European allies and Russia strongly oppose military action against Iraq's Saddam Hussein, Vice President Cheney predicted if push comes to shove against Baghdad, the U.S. will have the support it needs.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't talk about prospective future actions, but I think if aggressive action is required, I would anticipate that there will be the appropriate support for that, both from the American people and the international community.

ENSOR: Next month, Cheney will work on that international support against Iraq during a 12-nation trip, including three key neighboring countries: Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Turkey. Some of the actions against Iraq, Cheney suggested, may be taken covertly, presumably by U.S. intelligence.

CHENEY: Other aspects of it may never see the light of day, probably shouldn't. You're clearly going to have to deal in the shadows to some extent in some of these areas.

ENSOR: Turning to Iran, another nation in what the president has called the axis of evil, Cheney said recent actions by Tehran are heightening tensions.

CHENEY: Their conduct in recent weeks has not been encouraging.

ENSOR: Aides said he was referring first to the Iranian weapons on the ship, the Karine-A, seized by Israelis but bound for Palestinians, to evidence Iran has been giving arms to Afghan warlords and to reports some al Qaeda members are in Iran, with or without the government's help.

Finally, since Cheney has spent much of his life post-September 11 in what he calls undisclosed, secure locations, he was asked about the cloak and dagger, James Bond lifestyle he leads.

CHENEY: I was just sitting here thinking about the analogy to James Bond. There are certain features of his lifestyle that I've not been able to avail myself of.

(LAUGHTER)

Put it in those terms.

(APPLAUSE)

Although I am hopeful.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (on camera): A lighter moment, Wolf, but most of the speech was serious, and the underlying point to Iraq, the United States does plan to go after its weapons of mass destruction program at a minimum in the coming period -- Wolf.

BLITZER: David Ensor reporting tonight from here in Washington. Thank you very much.

So is the United States preparing for a new phase in the war against terrorism? Is the U.S. any closer to a campaign against Iraq? I'm joined now by Senator John Edwards of North Carolina. He's a member of the intelligence committee. And remember, you can e-mail your questions to us. Go to our Web page, cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily column.

So, first question, do you believe the U.S. is closer to military action against Iraq?

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), NORTH CAROLINA: I don't know. I'm still thinking of Vice President Cheney as James Bond. That picture just doesn't quite...

BLITZER: I don't think that that picture necessarily works. But let's talk about Iraq now.

EDWARDS: Sure.

BLITZER: Is the U.S. getting ready, in your opinion, to move militarily against Saddam Hussein?

EDWARDS: I think that a lot of us, including myself, believe that the regime change in Iraq is going to be necessary, given what's happened with Saddam Hussein, his not letting the weapons inspectors in, continuing to develop and proliferate weapons of mass destruction. We can't let this continue. We are going to have to do something.

What I would expect to happen, Wolf, and I'm not privy to what the discussions are within the administration, but what I expect to happen will be us to move in logical sequence. And I would expect the first thing to be to set clear demands with respect to the weapons inspectors. And I think we are prepared to do what's necessary down the line.

BLITZER: So, should the American public be ready for another Gulf War kind of scenario, hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops gearing up along Iraq's border, waiting to move in?

EDWARDS: I think the American people should, particularly considering what happened on September 11, understand that what happens half a world away has a direct impact on their lives. I think they've been very supportive of this war on terrorism. I think they'll be supportive of whatever action is necessary with respect to Saddam Hussein. Most Americans know who Saddam Hussein is. They understand that he is a menace and they understand that he is a direct threat not only to them and to the interests of the United States, but to our allies in that region.

BLITZER: Now, as you know, in the president -- in the State of the Union Address, lumped Iraq with Iran and North Korea as an axis of evil. Iran is a different situation than Iraq. What does the U.S. do about Iran?

EDWARDS: Well, those countries all have something in common. I mean, they are -- first of all, they're extraordinarily hostile to the United States. Second, they're involved in development and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction. So they have some things in common. On the other hand, calling them an axis of evil gives some -- at least implies that they're acting somehow in concert. And we know that in fact, in some ways, their interests are very much contrary to one another.

I think the question with respect to Iran is a much more complicated question.

BLITZER: But are there moderates and hard-liners in Iran, as a lot of experts seem to think, that the U.S. should strengthen those moderate elements within Iran?

EDWARDS: Well, I think on a day to day basis, the extremists are running Iran. The religious clerics, I think, are, at least all indications are, in control of what's happening there on a day to day basis. There are certainly indications that some of the people who actually run the government being moderate.

In recent days, some of the things that they've done, particularly with respect to the weapons shipment -- attempted shipment to the Palestinians and some of the demonstrations we've seen over the course of the last week or so, which I think is probably what the vice president was referring to, those two things, are concerning. I mean, they indicate, number one, that the moderates, if they exist, are probably not in control of what's happening there on a day to day basis and over the long term may not be able to move Iran to a place -- you know, they have a long history, Wolf, a long history of being probably the leading state sponsor of terrorism in the world. And they've talked the good talk, but the question is are they going change their behavior. And this shipment of weapons to the Palestinians, or attempted shipment, is pretty strong evidence that at least for now, they haven't altered their behavior very much.

BLITZER: The vice president also made a point of saying there are thousands and thousands of al Qaeda trained terrorists who have now dispersed in some 60 countries. There are sleeper cells, if you will. They are waiting to strike. He made the point: "We face an enemy -- his words -- that is determined to kill Americans by any means on any scale and on our soil." How worried should the American public be about that scenario?

EDWARDS: It's a serious threat, a very serious threat, a threat both here in the United States with al Qaeda people who are here in this country and abroad. Americans abroad need to be concerned about it too.

I've had meetings, I can tell you, I've had meetings this week with -- this past week with the FBI director. We talked about this issue, not just al Qaeda cells and al Qaeda members here in the United States, but also other terrorist organizations, Hamas, Hezbollah Islamic Jihad, all the potential threats that exist here within the United States.

And, of course, they sort of fall into two categories, Wolf. There are those who are helping fund the operation and there are those who in fact are planning or potentially planning an attack on the United States. No, I think it's a serious threat and I think we're taking it very seriously.

BLITZER: All right. Senator Edwards, thanks for joining us.

EDWARDS: Glad to be with you.

BLITZER: Appreciate it very much.

And remember, I want to hear from you. Go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. Click on the designation for comments to me and my producers. We read all of your comments.

And when we come back, Afghanistan is rocked by the death of a government official. When we return, the nation's interim leader says he knows who is to blame.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. The death of a member of Afghanistan's interim government has lead to accusations against other members of the government. CNN's Brian Palmer is in Kabul he joins us now with the latest -- Brian.

BRIAN PALMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Wolf, two violent episodes are really testing the interim government of Hamid Karzai, and they're also testing the degree to which law and order can be maintained here in the capital city of Kabul. First, as you mention, the assassination of the minister for aviation and tourism, Dr. Abdul Rahman, Chairman Karzai leveled charges that he was assassinated by members of his own government and defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAMID KARZAI, CHAIRMAN, AFGHAN INTERIM GOVERNMENT: We made the statement, and the statement is very clear that it was done by some individuals and those individuals are some of them arrested, some of them have gone and fight in the name of Haje (ph). We are asking the Saudi government to arrest them and bring them here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PALMER: Wolf, when we asked Chairman Karzai, last night, how he knew that these ministers, and we are talking about the head of the intelligence ministry, we are talking about a supreme court member, how he knew that these people were involved, whether there were eyewitnesses. He said, absolutely, there were eyewitnesses and that justice will be done. Three of these men have escaped to Saudi Arabia. Chairman Karzai has asked the Saudi government to find them and to send them back to Afghanistan -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian, what about the violence that was reported at that soccer match in Afghanistan that's been generating a lot of interest?

PALMER: Wolf, there's really been sort of a one-two punch. You've got the big picture, the government -- the developments in the government, the murder of the government minister, but the smaller picture -- violence at this soccer match, really arguably a very, very very disturbing and frightening episode, where members of Afghan security police, as well as members of the international security assistance force had to use force to keep people from storming the Olympic stadium. People who were simply trying to see a soccer match, but it brought out the entire city, Wolf, so essentially this soccer match that was supposed to celebrate international unity, became a focal point for all the energy in this city, whether it was peaceful, whether it was violent -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Palmer in Kabul, thank you very much for those -- that report. And for more on all of this, please join Martin Savidge for his "SPECIAL REPORT: LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN," that's right at the top of the hour.

A date for jury selection is set for the Taliban American John Walker Lindh. When we return, find out why some are unhappy about the timing of the trial.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We begin tonight's news alert with the latest on the kidnapped American journalist Daniel Pearl. Pakistani police are looking for a man they believe actually carried out the kidnapping of the "Wall Street Journal" reporter. They believe the suspect is connected to a Pakistani militant already in custody. Police also say they are confident they'll find Pearl alive.

And the trial of the American accused of being an al Qaeda- trained terrorist, should be under way by the first anniversary of the terrorist attacks on the United States. A judge set jury selection in the trial of John Walker Lindh for August 26th. Walker Lindh's attorney believes emotions will still be running high and could impact the trial.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again Monday, twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. And Sunday, Secretary of State Colin Powell joins me on "LATE EDITION," that begins at noon Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

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