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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Houston Mother Goes on Trial; Cremation Horror Story Discovered in Georgia
Aired February 18, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: a Houston mother goes on trial. At stake in this courtroom, her own life.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The evidence will show that beyond a reasonable doubt she is guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Andrea Yates was, without question, one of the most severely ill with postpartum depression.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Coming to terms with a cremation horror story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's just so much pain that these people are going through down here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Can you trust that your relatives' remains won't be tampered with?
And Canadian skaters get their gold, but who gets the blame for an Olympic controversy? Was he wrongly implicated? I'll speak with the head of the French Figure Skating Federation.
Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We've been following two horrific, gut-wrenching stories all day, and they top our "News Alert."
In Houston, a lawyer for Andrea Yates says severe depression drove her to kill her five young children. Opening statements in Yates' trial were made today. She has already pleaded "not guilty" by reason of insanity in the drowning deaths of her children last year. We'll have much more on this in a moment. One-hundred thirty, and counting. That's the number of bodies recovered on the grounds of a crematory in Georgia. Officials say the total may reach 200. The crematory operator, Ray Marsh, is under arrest, charged with 16 counts of theft by fraud. According to investigators, Marsh said the bodies were not cremated because the incinerator was broken.
In Tokyo, President Bush is refusing to ease his hard-line stance against the countries he calls the "axis of evil": North Korea, Iran and Iraq. The president says his goal is to settle issues peacefully, but the United States will do what it must do, he says, to defend its interests. His comments came after talks with Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.
More deadly violence in the Middle East. A suicide bomber blew himself up in Gaza, killing three Israelis. And in the West Bank, a suicide bomb attack killed an Israeli policeman. The attacks came after Israeli officials said they stopped five Palestinian suicide bombers yesterday.
Now back to our lead story: a jury of eight women and four men heard opening statements today in the trial of the Texas mother accused of drowning her five children. At the heart of the proceedings: the state of mind of Andrea Yates. CNN's Rawley Valverde looks at how the prosecution and the defense laid out their case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RAWLEY VALVERDE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Andrea Yates sat emotionless in a packed Houston courtroom, as the prosecution's opening arguments described the chilling details of June 21, 2001.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She called Noah into the bathroom, and put him in the water with Mary and drowned him. Then carried Mary and put her on the bed with the other three children that she had already drowned.
VALVERDE: In the span of less than an hour, Yates had methodically drowned her five children. Prosecutors hope to prove that Andrea Yates, though she might have been depressed, knew full well what she was doing that day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told him that she wasn't mad at the children, that she killed them because they weren't developing correctly, and she was a bad mother.
VALVERDE: The defense team will focus on Yates' mental state, claiming that she is not guilty by reason of insanity. In their opening argument, the defense said that since the birth of her fourth child, Yates' mental stability had deteriorated rapidly. She was in and out of mental health treatment centers, heavily medicated for depression, and had attempted suicide twice.
They plan to call up to the stand a large number of experts, including Dr. Rickels of the Baylor College of Medicine. GEORGE PARNHAM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: He will tell this jury that, among other things, that in his opinion, she not only did not know on June 20th what she was doing was wrong, but believed it was right. It was the right thing to do.
VALVERDE (on camera): The trial is expected to last two to three weeks. Now, Andrea Yates is looking at three possible outcomes, here. She could get life in prison, she could die by lethal injection. Or if she's found not guilty by reason of insanity, she'll be institutionalized. In Houston, I'm Rawley Valverde. Back to you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Rawley. And many legal experts say the defense could face a difficult job during the Yates trial. What steps will the attorneys on both sides take to prove their cases? Joining us now with some legal analysis is Cynthia Alksne, former federal prosecutor. Cynthia, thanks for joining us.
They both make pretty compelling opening statements. What did we learn from their general strategies in these opening states?
CYNTHIA ALKSNE, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well, the general strategy of the prosecution is to focus on the day before the murder and the day of the murder, and afterwards. That's where it begins. And they will talk about that almost exclusively.
On the other hand, the theory and the strategy of the defense is to try to bring up her whole life, and how she came up from being a mother of five to suddenly drowning five children. How did that happen? And specifically, why did they live in a bus, and why was she catatonic, and those types of things. So the focus is global for the defense, and very black and white for the prosecution.
BLITZER: What is the burden of proof? What do they have to prove to show that she was not insane? Because by definition, a mother who kills her five little children -- by definition, that's not a normal person.
ALKSNE: Right. This is an interesting point you bring up. After President Reagan was shot, insanity laws changed completely in this country. They went from the prosecution having the burden of proving insanity or sanity, to the defense. So the prosecution will have to prove that she murdered her children. That will be relatively easy. She has confessed to that. There isn't any question about that.
Then the burden shifts to the defense. The defense actually has to prove that she was insane at the time. That s he did not -- because of a severe mental disease or defect, she was unable to understand what she was doing. She didn't know what she was doing was wrong. That's the defense's burden of proof. And that's a very important distinction, here.
BLITZER: Given the fact that she has a long history of psychiatric problems -- she was taking all sorts of medical prescriptions to deal with the postpartum psychosis, and the other mental illnesses that she had -- how difficult of a burden is that for the defense?
ALKSNE: It's a very difficult burden, because there's a difference from being mentally ill, severely mentally ill and not knowing the difference between right and wrong. Let's remember, Jeffrey Dahmer was legally sane. So, being legally responsible is very different from, "that woman is nuts," which, of course, we know. We all know instinctively, any mother who drowns her five children is nuts.
But that's not the same as whether or not you are criminally responsible or not.
BLITZER: So if the prosecution can show that immediately after she committed these murders, she knew she did something really, really bad, in talking to her husband or anyone else -- would that be enough to convince a jury, presumably, that she was sane enough to go ahead and be convicted of murder?
ALKSNE: Right. That's what the prosecution is doing. Here's, for example, what they have. She planned the murders the night before, according to her statement. When you're planning, then you have some knowledge about right and wrong. She decided to wait until after her husband had left, because she knew he would stop her. That's planning, knowing the difference between right and wrong.
She committed the murders during a window of time after her husband left and before her mother-in-law arrived, because she didn't want her mother to catch her in the act. That's understanding the difference between right and wrong. She called the police -- that's an indication she knew the difference between right and wrong. She told the piece she needed to be punished, and that she knew hat she had done was a sin.
All those things are going to be her statements that came out of her mouth, and they all reflect that she had some understanding of right and wrong. Now, the question will be, how do you balance that? And this is the jury's job -- between what is clearly a long and severe history, including, you know, multiple suicide attempts, being catatonic, being institutionalized in the state of Texas, all kinds of things. And that's the jury's job to do.
BLITZER: Were you surprised that there was no plea agreement in advance of the trial?
ALKSNE: I was surprised there's no plea agreement. And I'm not convinced that there won't be one, as the case goes on.
BLITZER: OK. Cynthia Alksne, thanks for your legal analysis.
ALKSNE: You're welcome.
BLITZER: Turning now to a case in Georgia that Governor Ray Barnes calls "shocking." At least 130 bodies have been found on the grounds of the Tri-State Crematory in the small northeast town of Noble. Relatives are not only shocked, but they're outraged. CNN's Holly Firfer is covering developments in Noble. She joins us now live -- Holly.
HOLLY FIRFER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, authorities say that the process of removing bodies from a 16-acre area of grounds in the Tri-State Crematory is a slow one. Hundreds of bodies have been found and the medical examiner says that number is growing by the hour.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DR. KRIS SPERRY, GEORGIA MEDICAL EXAMINER: We have opened one of the vaults, and found that it was filled with human remains. The other four had been opened now, for initial evaluation. And all of those are filled with human remains.
FIRFER (voice-over): Identifying the hundreds of remains is no easy task. Some bodies were already mummified, making it difficult to gather DNA. Authorities are taking samples from family members to try to make a match.
Over 400 people are involved in the operation, from mapping the site, excavating and testing remains, and counselling family members.
ROCK THOMAS, RELATIVE OF DECEASED: I was just shocked that anyone could walk around and conduct business, and go home to what we now know are hundreds and hundreds of bodies scattered out and behind their place.
FIRFER: Twenty-eight-year-old Ray Brent Marsh, the director of the family-run Tri-State Crematory, sits in a Walker County detention center as the charges pile up: one count of theft by deception for every body identified. Marsh claims the incinerator did not work. But for how long, no one knows.
The county medical examiner said some of the remains could be 20 years old, expanding the investigation.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Now, there's a federal mortuary response team on the way here, with an 8,000-square foot temporary morgue. They're hoping they can help the folks here manage what can only be termed, Wolf, as "incomprehensible."
BLITZER: Holly, what kind of reputation did this crematory have before we learned of this horrific evidence?
FIRFER: It had a very good reputation. Nobody suspected anything. People had been on the property up to about a year and a half ago. Didn't see anything. And funeral homes certainly were using them quite a bit, so they had a fine reputation. And it's quite shocking.
BLITZER: Holly Firfer, quite shocking indeed. Thank you very much. And, devastated, traumatized: those are just two of the words being used to describe the reaction of families who believed relatives had been cremated at the Tri-State Crematory. Here's what some of them had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, no doubt about it that he is guilty. Knowing that -- knowing that something was going on in his property. I couldn't tell you. There's not a thing that you could do to -- I would not know. I couldn't tell you. There's just so much pain that these people are going through down here. Whatever they do to him, it won't be enough.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can anybody throw bodies out in the woods and leave them?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This man is pure evil, to take loved ones, family members, and discard them like an old beer can? It's somebody that has no heart, no feeling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Joining us now with some insight into this incredible, horrible case, Robert Vandenbergh, the president of the National Funeral Directors Association. Thank you, Mr. Vandenbergh, for joining us. How unusual, in your experience around the country, is this case in Georgia?
ROBERT VANDENBERGH, NATIONAL FUNERAL DIRECTORS ASSOCIATION: This is an awful aberration. It has never, to my knowledge, happened before. And hopefully, of course, will never happen again.
BLITZER: Has anything like this ever happened, even in a smaller scale, as far as your history -- as far as you know?
VANDENBERGH: No. The only time that I've heard of any problem that kind of even gets close to this was a situation out in California, where cremated remains were not being returned to families, but were being placed in a 55-gallon drum type situation, and were not being handled properly. But that is probably the closest that I've ever heard of, anything like this.
BLITZER: Well, as you know, our viewers out there, a lot of people, are going to be wondering what happens to the remains of their loved ones when they send them to a crematory. What should people look for when they go to a funeral home, for example, to deal with this most painful kind of decision?
VANDENBERGH: Well, of course, when you're going to a funeral home, it's like when you're going to anything that you are entrusting something. And with someone's loved one, of course, it is a very sacred trust. But it's much like selecting a physician or an attorney. You need to investigate it, obviously. You need to ask people that you trust -- people like your clergy, your other family members, friends who have used funeral homes in your area. And ask them for recommendations. And then also go and talk to these people yourself.
Today it is not uncommon to be virtually interviewed by a family. Just the other day I was interviewed by a man whose wife was dying with cancer. And we were recommended to him to help him through this. But he wanted to come and meet with us first, to see if, in fact, we were the people that he wanted to trust. And that is something that I advise to all the families who are out there, who are possibly facing this type of situation in the future.
BLITZER: Given that trust situation that you described, how much damage do you believe has been done to that trust level because of what we're now seeing happened in Georgia?
VANDENBERGH: I'm sure that it is bringing questions to people's finds. However, I have to assure them that in my history, and with our members and the people we represent and the funeral directors across this country, something like this doesn't happen.
This was a very strange situation. And in talking with the people down there that have known these people for years, as your reporter said moments ago, these people had a very good reputation. They were very well thought of, very well trusted. So it's strange. No one knows exactly what this is. But I'm sure people will be asking a few more questions about this, and rightfully so.
BLITZER: Robert Vandenbergh, thanks so much for joining us and giving us some perspective on this most horrific case. Thank you very much.
VANDENBERGH: Thank you.
BLITZER: And the skating scandal that made Olympic history is putting one man on the defensive. Coming up: my interview with the president of the French figure skating federation. Was he wrongly accused?
The new and improved airport security force faces its first test in Los Angeles. Did the changes make a difference?
And how much influence does Vice President Dick Cheney really have in running the country? Still ahead: I'll speak with a man in a position to know. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. It took a week of controversy and gold fever, but today Canadian skaters Jamie Sale and David Pelletier have their gold medals in hand. Olympic officials presented those medals last night. Many see that gesture as an effort to appease skating fans and end a week of scandal. But the Olympic controversy continues to linger.
At the center of the controversy is this woman, the French skating judge. She has said the French skating federation forced her to show bias for another skating team. Today she changed her story, telling a French newspaper she voted her conscience. Within the past hour, I spoke with Didier Gaihaguet, of the French skating federation, about the accusations.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Didier Gailhaguet, thank you so much for joining us from Salt Lake City. You probably saw the quotes that were attributed to Marie- Reine Le Gougne in "The New York Times" on Sunday, in which she said this. She said, "You don't understand. You don't understand. We're under an awful lot of pressure. My federations, my president Didier, I had to put the Russians first."
The suspended French judge seems, in that quote, to be blaming you for her decision to vote for the Russians.
DIDIER GAILHAGUET, FRENCH SKATING FEDERATION: OK. This quote that has been done, about seven or eight days ago. And it's back again, but it is the same thing -- it's nothing new. This lady, Marie-Reine LeGougne, was a judge out of a panel of nine people. She gave -- voted for the Russians. And she was not the only one, by the way. Because just one judge cannot make the result of the Olympics.
Four other people, who made the majority, voted with her. Russian, of course, a Ukrainian, but also a Chinese and a Polish judge. Mary Reine had been suffering a lot of pressure for a long time. That's what she said today. And this is new, in the French newspaper, journal "L'Equipe." And she said she had been pressured by many people. And so much pressure that she felt that her integrity, moral and physical, was bad. It was bad for her.
So, today I'm really disappointed to hear that knowing that after -- immediately after the event review meeting, she wrote a letter to the president of the International Skating Union, Mr. Ottavio Cinquanta, where she stated that she had been pressured by -- under an emotional state, and that she said that I was the one who pushed her.
But she immediately that it wasn't true and she wrote it. And she said that -- also that this, when she punched the button, she was completely in a heart, a truth and conscience, and that if she had do it again, she would vote Russian. Because at that moment, she thought they were the best. But...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Didier, let me interrupt you for a second and ask you, bluntly, the question. Before the contest a week ago Monday, did you speak to her at all about how she should vote, as far as the gold medal is concerned, whether for the Russians or the Canadians, or anyone else?
GAILHAGUET: But let's stop hypocrites in this skating world. Judges are human beings. They speak -- they speak with athletes. They speak with coaches. And a coach always think that his pupil is good. And they always have talks, of course. This is not influencing. This is just talking. My judge, like the other judge, speak among themselves and compare their opinions, et cetera and et cetera. This is part of the, how would I say, this is not -- it's like a lobbying. But at the end, when you vote, you are in front of your seat and in front of the skaters, and you decide in your heart and conscience. That's what she did and that's what she stated in a written paper to the International Skating Union.
Today she said...
BLITZER: I want to interrupt, because I do think you're right. She does say in this French journal, "L'Equipe," she does say that, "I judged in my soul and conscious. I consider that the Russians were the best. I never made a deal with an official or a Russian judge," which is, of course, in direct contradiction with what she had said a few days earlier in that closed-door meeting cited by "The New York Times."
But the question to you is this: did you, Didier, did you ever talk to her or pressure her in any way that she could conceive, that you wanted her to vote for the Russians?
GAILHAGUET: I talked to Marie-Reine for the last 25 years, very regularly. I have talked to her. I didn't have any contact with her because I didn't see her. And you know, I am the chief admission for the French delegation, which means I'm always away. I love figure skating, it is my passion. But I have not been at the rink. So that makes me laugh when you say that I've been pressuring Marie-Reine, which is my friend for many years.
And what I can say, I have been a coach. I have been technical director, and I have been now the president of the French Federation. Why, but why would I try to push more for the Russian than for the Canadians, considering we have no French athletes in the medal? That makes me really laugh.
And concerning the allegation that could have been made, through a transfer on another discipline, this is such a easy allegation that I am really shocked that some media, but also some people from the skating community, may have said that. Because this is not true. I completely deny all this.
All what we want to see now in Salt Lake City is the skaters, the athletes, perform the best performance they can with serenity. And we want the official to be completely free. Here we're in Salt Lake, we're here for the sport. We're not in a "wargate" or "skatinggate," or whatever some media may have said.
BLITZER: OK. Didier Gailhaguet, thank you so much for joining us from Salt Lake City. Appreciate it.
GAILHAGUET: You're welcome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: We have some breaking news coming in from Salt Lake City right now. The International Skating Union has just announced that they are going to change the way they judge these international competition. For example, they will increase the number of judges for these competitions, from 9 to 14.
Having said that, though, they have also decided that only seven of those judges' decisions will count. And no one will know which seven of these judges their verdicts will be the ones that will be decisive. This will supposedly eliminate the so-called bloc voting -- the various regional bloc voting that's been going on.
In addition, beyond increasing the number of judges from nine to 14, they've also decided to eliminate the now-famous 6.0 system, to come up with a new formula that will both include technical difficulty of the skaters presentations, performances, as well as execution points.
That news conference is going on in Salt Lake City right now. We'll have more details, once again, as they become available. But once again, the International Skating Union has decided they are going to change the way these international figure skating competitions are judged.
Now let's check some other stories on today's "Newswire." We begin with action from those Winter Games in Salt Lake City. The team ski jumping competition was the closest in Olympic history. Germany edged out Finland for the gold medal. Slovenia won the bronze.
Germany won another gold medal in the women's 30-kilometer biathlon relay. Norway collected silver and Russia won the bronze. And the U.S. men's hockey team clobbered Belarus, 8-1. The outcome will likely give the United States a top seed in Wednesday's quarterfinals.
Los Angeles police today detained a man who was found to carry an inert military explosive. It was spotted in his carry-on luggage as it passed through an X-ray machine. Police say the device was disabled. The man was questioned by the FBI.
Authorities say a -- quote -- "total misunderstanding" caused security problems at New York's La Guardia airport earlier today. A Cleveland-bound American Eagle flight was turned back after a man apparently misunderstood instructions and boarded the plane without being fully screened. The security breach caused a terminal to be shut down and passengers to be rescreened.
Federal authorities this weekend assumed control of security at many of the nation's airports. Critics say that switch amounted to little more than a shift in senior management. And today, many front- line security measures remain unchanged.
Joining me now is Charles Slepian. He's an aviation attorney from the Foreseeable Risk Analysis Center. Charles, thanks for joining us. Is this going to make a huge difference, this change in authority at the nation's airports?
CHARLES SLEPIAN, FORESEEABLE RISK ANALYSIS CENTER: Well, I am afraid not. We still have the same unskilled trained individuals doing the screening. And until that changes, you're not going to see a significant difference at all.
BLITZER: When are we going to see some skilled -- some more trained people at those checkpoints at the airport?
SLEPIAN: Well, you're asking the wrong guy, Wolf. I'm not quite sure. My understanding is, we haven't even yet begun to hire the skilled people that will be necessary to do this job. The opportunity is out there. We have several hundred-thousand retired law enforcement personnel who could be hired to go to work for the government and do the screening job.
But as long as we seem wedded to using the same people who were there on September the 10th into the future, we're just not going to see much of a change.
BLITZER: The whole procedures were supposed to be quite different, as a result of these changes. You don't think that's going to happen any time soon?
SLEPIAN: Well, I don't think the individuals who are currently doing the job are capable of carrying the out-enhanced security procedures, such as the use of biometrics, and the sophisticated computer screening that we have. There is no effort being made at the moment to screen the hundreds of thousands of workers in airports, who have access to airplanes. There are no screeners doing the same job for the people on the ramp that they do for the people in the terminals.
There has been no real effort to put into place the explosive detection systems that we're hearing so much discussed. As a matter of fact, my understanding is we still have not ordered any, in the couple of months that have gone by since the government has been saying we won't have enough by the end of the year. I don't know what the delay is. We just don't seem to be going forward with a new program.
BLITZER: What about the criminal background checks of all the screeners at the airports, now that the federal government has taken over directly for these screeners. When is that going to happen?
SLEPIAN: Well, we have a promise that that is under way. And that's going to happen pretty soon, that everybody will be checked. But my question is, when we get those results back and we find that a substantial number of workers do not meet the new qualifications, what will become of them? Are we going to let them go? How are we going to replace them? Who are we going to replace them with? Or will it be just another delay? The law was passed in '97 to do these background checks. However, we decided to impose it only on those who were hired after the year 2000. So none of this makes a whole lot of sense.
BLITZER: Charles, what about private contractors that have been doing all the screening at the airports? What happens to them under this new system? SLEPIAN: Well under the new system, supposedly, they are going to be replaced by federal civil servants.
However, a number of the members of Congress and DOT have expressed the view that we ought to use the same people. The new law requires, for instance, that they be American citizens. However, there are some bills now in Congress to expedite citizenship for people who are not currently citizens. I wonder if that was the intent of Congress when we put that provision in in the first place.
This is not supposed to be a jobs program for the people who exist in that job today. It is supposed to be a program to protect the American people, to protect the flying public. And we need to do something about that. We need to replace the people who are there, who are unskilled, in many instances not even trainable, replace them with people who can be skilled, who are skilled, who are trainable, who are prepared to go forward and protect this nation's aviation system.
It just is not happening right now.
BLITZER: All right, Charles Slepian, thanks for joining us.
SLEPIAN: Thank you.
BLITZER: Meanwhile, President Bush is at the helm at the White House, but is there ever a time when Vice President Dick Cheney takes charge? His chief staff will join us when we return. And later, the FBI agent who sold U.S. secrets: Did Osama bin Laden manage to get ahold of one of them? Those stories plus word of a vaccine shortage coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
The Andrea Yates murder trial opened today in Houston, Texas. During opening statements, defense attorneys say postpartum depression forced the 37-year-old woman to kill her five children, adding that she -- quote -- "did not appreciate the wrongfulness of her acts."
In Northern Georgia, investigators combed the grounds of a crematory collecting the remains of dozens of victims. So far, the bodies of 130 people who were supposed to be cremated have been recovered. That number is expected to grow.
Vice President Dick Cheney is in California. He rallied the troops at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station. And during that address, he honored the memories of nine Marines killed last month in Afghanistan and Pakistan. He also spoke about the U.S. war on terror.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This war began with a deliberate attack on innocent Americans. This war will end when justice is delivered in full measure and no terrorist group or government can threaten the peace of the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Before September 11, Vice President Cheney was a very visible and integral part of the Bush administration. Since then, for security reasons, he has often been under wraps and out of the public eye. He often overnights at what officials call an undisclosed location. But has Dick Cheney's role in the White House been diminished?
Our next guest is Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Dick Cheney's chief of staff. Scooter Libby is also the author of "The Apprentice," a novel just out in paperback this month. We'll talk about that in a moment.
Thanks for joining us, Mr. Libby.
Well, the question about Dick Cheney, your boss, since September 11, how has his role in the Bush administration changed?
LEWIS "SCOOTER" LIBBY, CHIEF OF STAFF TO THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't think it's changed much at all, Wolf.
There are times when we are away from the White House. We have made an effort to separate him from the president on public occasions. But even when we are away, we have secure video link-ups that enable us to conduct business much the same way we would if we were in the White House. So his role is what it was before.
BLITZER: But the theory is that the president and the vice president should not be in close proximity. Is that the theory behind a lot of these measures?
LIBBY: September 11 brought into focus for America a lot of things. One of them was that there is a possibility of an attack with a weapon of mass destruction against America, against Washington, even against the White House.
And, in that context, it's deemed important to make sure that the vice president and the president are in different locations on occasions to complicate the planning of the bad guys and ensure the continuity of government if something awful should happen.
BLITZER: You know the suggestion in Washington: Access to power is power. Over the years, somebody who is close to the president, has an office near the president, works on a day-to-day basis, like the national security adviser or the White House chief of staff, that person is in a position of power.
The fact that the vice president and the president can't be as close nowadays, since September 11, has that diminished Dick Cheney's role in the administration?
LIBBY: I think the office of the vice president does not have, like the secretary of state or the secretary of defense, embassies or aircraft carriers. We have one product. And that's the quality of the advice that the vice president gives to the president. And that quality has not diminished.
BLITZER: And he weighs in on virtually everything across the board, is that right?
LIBBY: Well, any issue in which the president invites his opinion or any issue in which he feels strongly, he can raise with the president.
BLITZER: How is he doing? And our viewers are interested in his health. As you know, he does have a serious heart ailment. How is he doing right now?
LIBBY: He seems to be doing fine, as far as I can tell. Your viewers just saw him on television. So, he is having a good time. He enjoys his job, which makes all the difference in the world as to whether you feel like you are under stress or you're having a good time.
BLITZER: I have known him, as you have, going back to when I covered the Pentagon. You worked at the Pentagon. He seems to be quite robust.
Let me talk a little bit talk about your book, "The Apprentice." It is now out in paperback, a novel, which I read, a fascinating novel, a first novel. You have been writing this novel for, what, 30 years?
LIBBY: Well, not continuously for 30 years. I first wrote it as part of a college course. And that's how you get all the way back to a long time past. I think it is a little less than 30.
BLITZER: You got some credit at Yale for writing that.
LIBBY: Yes. Fortunately, that enabled me to graduate. That was always a nice side benefit of writing it.
But there were large gaps. I went to law school. I practiced law for six years. I put it away in a drawer and didn't touch it. It was only later on, when I came out of the State Department and started to research it and then really wrote it in the course of two years between '93 and '95.
BLITZER: And it deals in a blizzard in Japan, 1903. Very briefly, give us a little tease. What's it about?
LIBBY: Well, as you say, it is about an apprentice who is running an inn during a snowstorm, a blizzard, in this very remote part of Japan. And the blizzard strands a number of travelers. These are not the sort of high-class courtier Japanese, but working-class people.
And among these guests is a beautiful girl. And, as it happens, the apprentice comes upon, innocently, a corpse. And that plunges him into this sort of vortex of activity, in which is he sexually attracted to the girl. He is suspected by some of having killed this man that he found. And he is trapped in this possible larger conspiracy involving mysterious men sort of moving in the forest, and troops movements, and assassination rumors and that.
BLITZER: I think you have told us enough. The keyword -- having read the book and knowing something about you, the keyword is sexual romance. I guess our viewers are going to be intrigued.
See what Scooter Libby, the White House vice president's chief of staff, has to say about all of that.
Thanks for joining us.
LIBBY: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Good luck with the paperback edition.
LIBBY: Thank you very much.
BLITZER: And: Is Osama bin Laden privy to U.S. secrets? Coming up: how some classified information may -- repeat may -- have ended up in his hands. And later: how the British invaded Spain by mistake.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
As a spy, former FBI Agent Robert Hanssen confessed that he funneled U.S. secrets to Moscow. But did that information ultimately help Osama bin Laden?
Our national security correspondent, David Ensor, is following this story. He joins us now live with more -- David.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, I spent today with experts on the Hanssen case, including David Vise, a "Washington Post" reporter who wrote one of the better books on the Hanssen case.
And Hanssen says -- excuse me, Vise says that he understands that Robert Hanssen, who is being interrogated now and is supposed to cooperate in order to, under the terms of his plea agreement -- in order to get life in prison instead of death, has been caught lying by polygraph tests. And there has been some -- there are real questions about whether his cooperation is real and complete.
Here is how Vise put it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID VISE, "WASHINGTON POST": In the course of that one-on-one interview, Hanssen became very upset and he actually punched the polygrapher in the face and the polygrapher hit him back. And they got into a scuffle. And a number of security guards had to come in and separate the two men.
So, suffice it to say that, in the year since Robert Hanssen was arrested for espionage, openly and truthfully and calmly disclosing any and all intelligence breaches has not come easily to him whatsoever.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: There are also indications that Osama bin Laden, as Wolf mentioned, might be benefiting from secrets that Robert Hanssen gave to the Russians. Vise says that he has information that a particular intelligence system, a particular surveillance software that was given by Hanssen to the Russians, ended up in the hands of al Qaeda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VISE: I learned that one of the things Robert Hanssen sold the Russians was a software system used in the United States to track intelligence and law enforcement cases. That was sold to the Russians. An individual Russian, not the Russian government, but an individual Russian, according to U.S. intelligence, later sold that software to the al Qaeda terrorist network for $2 million.
That software ultimately made its way it Osama bin Laden. And U.S. intelligence believes it facilitated and has facilitated bin Laden's ability to evade monitoring by the United States.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ENSOR: Hanssen himself spent the anniversary of his arrest in the Alexandria detention center. He is scheduled to be sentenced to life in prison in May.
BLITZER: Assuming he continues to cooperate, if in fact he is cooperating.
Thank you very much, David Ensor.
Let's check some other stories making news around the world. It took Slobodan Milosevic 10 hours over three days to present his defense opening statement at the war crimes trial in the Netherlands. He finished today claiming moral victory. Milosevic is accused of genocide and crimes against humanity. Also today, the first witness in the tribunal took the stand.
The Peruvian Supreme Court today upheld the sentence of Lori Berenson. The American woman was accused of collaborating with leftist rebels. She was found guilty on terrorism collaboration charges in 1996 and sentenced to 20 years in prison. This was her last option for an appeal of her conviction.
Pakistani police have four men in custody in the case of kidnapped "Wall Street Journal" reporter Danny Pearl. But his whereabouts still remain unknown. Meanwhile, "The New York Times" reports the Bush administration has adopted a new, more rigorous policy in such cases. It falls on the federal government to review every kidnapping of an American citizen overseas for possible government action. Should the United States negotiate with hostage takers? That's our Web question of the day. You can vote at CNN.com/Wolf. While you are there, let me know what you are thinking. Send me your comments. I will read some of them on the air each day. Also, that's where you can read my daily online column: cnn.com/Wolf.
And the son of the Reverend Billy Graham is up next. We will talk about his latest mission and past controversial comments coming up. Also: the military mistake that has Great Britain (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
In the war against AIDS, some critics say the Christian church has fallen short, refusing to join the front-line effort to rid the world of the deadly disease. An international Christian conference under way here in Washington hopes to change that perception. The meeting is sponsored by the relief organization Samaritan's Purse. The president of that group is the Reverend Franklin Graham, the son of the Reverend Billy Graham.
The Reverend Franklin Graham joins us now live to talk about the issue of AIDS and the Christian church.
You are familiar with the criticism. Is that why you are stepping up to the plate now?
REV. FRANKLIN GRAHAM, PRESIDENT, SAMARITAN'S PURPOSE: Well, Wolf, the criticism isn't just the church. I think the United States government, none of us have done enough.
A lot of churches have been slow to address this issue. And I think maybe some of the stigma in this country as the result of how people get AIDS has kept many people away from it. But there is 40 million people that are infected with HIV and AIDS...
BLITZER: Worldwide.
GRAHAM: Worldwide, 40 million.
Last year, there were five million new infections, three million deaths. You cannot ignore this. It has exploded. And I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ needs to take the leadership role in this issue.
And you think of the churches around the world, every country, if the pastors stood up and helped to educate just the people in their congregations, this war against HIV AIDS, we could be well down the road, because we need education. The vast majority of the world don't even know how you get AIDS or how it is spread.
BLITZER: And the stigma, I suppose, was originally because homosexuals were seen as the primary victims of AIDS.
GRAHAM: With intravenous drug users and prostitutes. And I think a lot of people said, well, you know, that's not us. That's their problem. Let them deal with it.
And I think, also, in the early days, a lot of people felt that there would be some kind of vaccine coming soon. And we realize now that maybe in the next 10 years, maybe even longer than that before we get any type of vaccine for HIV AIDS.
But the church needs to be on the forefront of this issue. People need to know that there is hope. God does love us. God does care. He has provided a way for us to be with him one day in heaven through faith in his son, Jesus Christ. And the church has a wonderful message of love and hope that needs to be given to these people. And I'm concerned about the new infections each year. How can we bring this rate down? It is increasing. It needs to be turned around.
And I think we can turn that around through education and really strong programs on abstinence, getting people to wait, wait for marriage to have sex. Any time you get into any type of sexual relationship outside of marriage, you are at risk. And I hope that we, the church, we can add a little part to this by standing up, using our pulpits when we can to educate men and women to the dangers that they face.
BLITZER: There was a little controversy, you remember, on the comments about Islam. Tell our viewers where you stand now on the whole issue of Islam, because of the uproar that was generated a few weeks ago.
GRAHAM: Well, first of all, we work a lot in Muslim countries. And we care a lot for the Muslim people. I have some great concerns about the teachings of Islam as it relates to women, their treatment of women and, of course, to nonbelievers, Christians and especially Jews.
There are some teachings in the Koran that I find very disturbing, very scary. And I have some problems with them. But we don't have problems with the Muslim people. We love them and want to help them. I have a hospital in Northern Afghanistan. We have other work in the Middle East. But we do have concerns about the teaching.
BLITZER: All right, Reverend Franklin Graham, thanks for joining us. Give our best to your father as well.
GRAHAM: I sure will. Thank you.
BLITZER: Appreciate it very much.
And let's check some other stories on today's "Newswire": Legendary Broadcaster Howard K. Smith has died. Smith joined CBS to report on World War II and later moved to ABC as a co-anchor and analyst. In 1960, he served as the moderator of the first Kennedy- Nixon debate. Howard K. Smith was 87. Federal health officials say there is a shortage of the critical vaccine that protects children from measles, mumps and rubella. It is forcing them to dip into an emergency stockpile. Other childhood vaccines, including those for chicken pox, are in short supply as well. It's a situation some doctors warn could lead to confusion and chaos.
Call it a map-reading error of enormous proportions. Britain's Defense Ministry is apologizing for invading Spain over the weekend. Locals watched in astonishment as heavily armed combat troops stormed a beach in Spanish territory. They were supposed to hit a beach on the nearby British colony of Gibraltar as part of an amphibious exercise -- that's a mistake.
And, in a moment, we get your input on the news of the day and on the question of the day: Should the United States negotiate with hostage takers?
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Today's Web question of the day: Should the United States negotiate with hostage takers? An overwhelming number of you, those who voted, 90 percent say no. We'll have another poll question tomorrow at CNN.com/Wolf.
And while you're there, drop me a line. Let me know what you're thinking. We will read some of those comments on the air.
In fact, here is one of those comments that we got from Gyan in Atlanta. She has this suggestion: "Maybe the United States Supreme Court can learn something from the International Olympic Committee and confirm both Al Gore and G.W. as co-presidents. Wouldn't that be a diplomatic way of amicably resolving the sense of unfairness that permeated the 2000 presidential election?"
Gyan, you've got to get over that election. It is done. It is more than a year already.
I'll be back in an hour with an in-depth look at the role of the U.S. government in winning the release of kidnapped American citizens. Among my guests: the journalist and former hostage Terry Anderson.
Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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