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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Office of Strategic Influence; Good Idea?

Aired February 19, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: Will truth be the first casualty? The Pentagon launches an information war against terrorism.

New targets in the air war. Is the U.S. flying missions for the Afghan government? Are Iranian agents working to bring down the Afghan government?

With Islam under scrutiny, millions of the faithful go on a once in a lifetime journey. We'll go to Mecca. We'll also go live to the Pentagon and Afghanistan. And former Pentagon officials Richard Perle and Lawrence Korb debate Pentagon strategy as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. In the war against terrorism, there's a serious debate now underway inside the Bush administration. This one involves a controversial proposal to spread propaganda out the United States, including some clearly false information, to confuse America's enemies. One school says the ends justify the means. The other school calls it a dangerous policy.

What's clear: this debate is only just beginning. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In Afghanistan, the U.S. military has conducted extensive propaganda missions. Planes like this one broadcasting U.S. government radio messages into remote areas. Thousands of leaflets being dropped, encouraging people to revolt against the Taliban and the al Qaeda.

But the question is whether the Pentagon is going to go a controversial step further into what it now calls information warfare, providing foreign news media with possibly deceptive information. A new 15-man office of strategic influence has been set up to look at such an operation. Public relations advisers have been hired. The job: to influence the hearts and minds of the opposition in the war on terrorism. One technique: disguising the origin of information so it does not appear to come from the U.S. government.

WENDY SHERMAN, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT COUNSELOR: This is a step that, if not carefully done, might go over the line between generally accepted elements of warfare and really bordering on the kind of dishonesty that will hurt our credibility.

STARR: No decisions have been made to lie to foreign news media, according to senior Pentagon officials. But lying or deception has been part of information operations, although when it is done, it is classified and never publicly acknowledged. Still, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld says the Pentagon does not lie to reporters.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I suppose you never say never. But all I can say is I cannot imagine a situation where we would be so unskillful that we would be in a position that we would have to do that to protect lives.

STARR: At the state department, the spokesman also said lying was not part of the U.S. plan.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: We provide information. We provide accurate and truthful information.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (on camera): Wolf, deception on the battlefield has been a long held military tactic to defeat an enemy. The question now is whether deception in newspapers and television is a good idea for the Pentagon. Even the most senior officials are skeptical.

BLITZER: And, Barbara, we are going to have a lot more on this coming up, but while I have you, there seems to be, correct me if I'm wrong, a shift in U.S. bombing strategy in Afghanistan. Over the weekend, as you know, the U.S. went after some non-al Qaeda, non- Taliban targets. What's going on?

STARR: Well, no one's exactly sure what happened. But on Saturday, a group of Afghan fighters loyal to Hamid Karzai, the leader of the interim government, were moving through southeastern Afghanistan. They came across a roadblock. They started taking small arms fire. Now, no U.S. troops were with them in these initial moments.

They moved down the road. They did pick up some U.S. special forces and 200 additional Afghan fighters. They returned to the scene. More small arms fire erupted. And, in fact, U.S. air strikes were called in. Now what's really interesting about this is that officials tell us there was no particular this was either a Taliban or an al Qaeda target and the initial exchange of fire did not involve U.S. troops.

So it's a question of whether this is an opening round of a new phase of air strikes, specifically to support Hamid Karzai. As we all know, until this point, the U.S. military had stayed out of any clashes between warring militias or warring warlords -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

And with reports of battling warlords and U.S. air strikes over the weekend, how has security been affected on the ground inside Afghanistan? Our Brian Palmer joins us now live from the scene. He's in Kabul. Any significant shift on the security front since the weekend, Brian?

BRIAN PALMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, nothing that we've detected here. The major new development is that two members of the international security and assistance forces, two British paratroopers, have been sent home after a shooting incident that involved the paratroopers in which one Afghan was killed. There's still no information about where that shot came from, no forensic information.

Now the big event, the big security concern on everyone's mind is the killing of the minister of civil aviation and tourism. Security comes up in every conversation that we have with officials here on the ground. And at a press conference this weekend, interim chairman Hamid Karzai said that there may -- he may have to ask for an expansion of the mandate of the ISAF forces.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAMID KARZAI, CHAIRMAN, INTERIM AFGHAN GOVERNMENT: If the security involvement in Afghanistan does not improve further, we will make sure that the international security forces are asked together with the Afghan forces to take a stronger role.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PALMER: We are constantly told that just because there's an interim government in place, just because there's a 4,000 member plus international security assistance force on the ground only here in Kabul, and just because there is a presence of U.S. troops throughout the country does not mean that law and order has been established here in Afghanistan.

Security has been a concern for the past 23 years. Security has been a concern since this interim government took office in January. As I said, every conversation we have turns around to security. We had a long interview today with the minister of women's affairs who said that she cannot go forward with her very ambitious agenda to improve literacy and health for women until there is a stable security situation on the ground here in Afghanistan. What that means is a functional national army and a national police force that preserves and protects the laws that are in effect here in Afghanistan, Wolf.

BLITZER: And, Brian, you're expecting some important military visitors to show up in Kabul soon. Tell us what's going on?

PALMER: We are indeed expecting a very high level delegation from the United States. We are expecting a visit from General Campbell. We are having a very difficult time confirming what's going to be on the agenda. We know that the U.S. and particularly the members of ISAF, the international security and assistance forces, will be involved in training this national Afghan army that is being constructed. But what we are being told by our sources is that General Campbell will be talking about the general defense situation here in Afghanistan. He will be having discussions with the minister of defense, General Fahim, to conduct a general defense assessment. But beyond that, they really haven't gone into the specifics of what's going to be going on. We know that this training is going to be started in earnest after the Eid holiday. This is one of the largest holidays in the Muslim year which coincides with the Hajj, the holy pilgrimage to Mecca, but that's not going to kick in until after February 25, Wolf.

BLITZER: And General Campbell is Major General Charles Campbell, the chief of staff of the U.S. central command which is in charge of conducting the U.S. military operation in that part of the world. Brian Palmer in Kabul, thank you very much.

So how far should the Pentagon go in trying to win the hearts and minds of people around the world? Does it need a so-called bodyguard of lies?

Joining me here in Washington: Richard Perle of the American Enterprise Institute. He is a former assistant defense secretary. He now chairs the Pentagon's advisory Defense Policy Board. And in New York, Lawrence Korb. He is also a former assistant defense secretary. He is now vice president of the Council on Foreign Relations.

Remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to us. Go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily online column. Richard Perle, why is it a good idea for the U.S. to get involved in so-called strategic influence, including possibly disseminating false information to people outside of the United States?

RICHARD PERLE, AMERICAN ENTERPRISE INSTITUTE: Well, I think we need to be clear about the sort of operations that are envisioned. If we were to conduct a military operation in which we were entering a theater from the south, would it be wrong to plant stories that we might be coming from the north? I don't think so. I think that the use of tactical information in order to confuse and mislead an enemy is entirely legitimate. I would much rather see our American forces fighting against a confused enemy than one that knew everything they needed to know to deal more effectively with us. So it's a matter of protecting American lives.

BLITZER: What about that, Lawrence Korb? The ends...

our American forces fighting against a confused enemy than one that knew everything they needed to know to deal more effectively with us. So it's a matter of protecting American lives.

BLITZER: What about that, Lawrence Korb? The ends justify the means?

LAWRENCE KORB, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well that's not what I understand this office is supposed to do. We are not talking about deception on the battlefield, we are talking about trying to win the hearts and minds not only of adversaries but friendly countries, and they've hired a public relations firm to help them do that.

So this is completely different than what Richard is talking about, and they want to put the regular public affairs in with these covert operations and so one would never know when you're getting a briefing, whether, it's if you will, the "black" side or whether you're getting the straight story.

Just look at some of the problems we've had recently of the Pentagon trying to find out if they attacked the wrong targets or what information they had. You can go back and you can see how many targets did the patriot missiles destroy, what we saw first and found what we found out later wasn't the case, and this was not a question of the Pentagon trying to mislead. It was just an honest mistake.

So I think that's a problem you're going to have in the long run. But I don't disagree with Richard about battlefield intelligence. That's a different thing.

PEARLE: Let me just say that insofar as winning the hearts and minds of others is concerned, that is certainly part of this war on terror. We are living in a world in which the culture of terror and suicide bombing has taken hold in a number of countries. If we can discourage that, if we can help shape the thinking in other places in the world so that suicide bombers are not recruited, trained and sent in to destroy Americans, I don't see what's wrong with that.

What we are not going to do is have American officials lie to the American people. That is absolutely out of the question.

BLITZER: But Richard, that's a very sensitive point. If U.S. officials are lying to a newspaper in the Middle East or a newspaper in Europe or in Asia, given the nature of the media and Internet, won't there be that whole issue of what's called blow back? It'll be picked up by American news media very, very quickly?

PEARLE: We are not really talking here about lying. Let's take for example the issue of corruption. A number of the terrorist organizations we are fighting are in fact corrupt. And their leaders enjoy the benefits of that corruption, whether it's achieved by selling drugs on the world market or in other ways. And governments that protect them are frequently corrupt. Those stories don't get published to the degree they should get published. If we help that information get out, if we help disseminate the truth and it becomes part of the war for hearts and minds, I think that's a good thing.

BLITZER: On that specific point, Lawrence Korb, let me just read you an email that we got, and then you can respond to what Richard Pearle just said. The email is from Harold in Poughkeepsie, New York. He says, "The new office of strategic influence is a step in the right direction. We must use any avenue available to combat people who use terror tactics. Disinformation can be just as deadly as a bomb or a bullet."

KORB: Well, I think the question really is, if you are trying to win the hearts and minds of the people, you don't have to lie, you just have to tell them the truth, and second, is this something the Pentagon should be doing? There's no doubt about the fact that the U.S. government needs to engage in public diplomacy, but this is not the job of the Pentagon. And I think that's the real problem.

As I understand it Secretary Rumsfeld is the checking with his general counsel to see if in fact this is legal for the Pentagon to do. The second issue is how do you organize it? By putting all of the public affairs functions under this one particular office I think would break down the firewalls that have served us well.

When we set up the whole national security apparatus after World War II we wanted to make sure that you had one group handling intelligence, primarily the Central Intelligence Agency. You had another group to handle atomic weapons. You kept that from the military. I think in the long term this will undermine the great standing that our military has in this country as one of the most highly rated institutions, because it does level with the American people.

And I think in the long run, leveling with the American people, it helps us to have the debate we should. We tried to shade the news in Vietnam, it came back to haunt us.

BLITZER: What about that, Richard Perle? Is the U.S. military's credibility at stake?

PEARLE: No, of course not. Larry, I think you're mixing things up.

KORB: No, I think they're mixing things up in this one office.

PEARLE: Let me just say that no one is talking about the American military distorting the way it reports to the American people, or indeed the way it reports the truth. There is a problem in many places in the world in getting the truth into print and getting the truth over the airwaves.

That's why we had broadcasting during the Cold War to penetrate the barriers to truth that were erected by our enemies, and that's the sort of thing that can be done by an office of strategic influence. And I think you're carping a bit when you look at this as a question of bureaucracy: which part of the government should or shouldn't be doing it.

We are not going to do anything here that's illegal. We're not going to do anything that's improper, but it's time to recognize that perceptions of reality, which are sometimes different from reality, need some shaping in places in the world where the truth doesn't get out so easily as it does here.

KORB: We are not talking about if it's not true. That's not the issue. The issue is, can they plant false stories in order to achieve that?

PEARLE: Who says that's the issue? You say that's the issue. KORB: No, you said in the beginning that they're allowed to do that, and this is what this whole controversy is...

PEARLE: I thought you were agreeing that if you could tactically mislead that would be a good thing. Were you not?

KORB: Well we are talking about battlefield intelligence where for example you have troop movements. But this office, as it was reported today, was supposed to be planting misleading stories with foreign journalists and even some of our own allies, not having to do with tactical issues, but overall strategic issues.

PEARLE: I don't know where you get the idea that an office that hasn't been formed yet is the going to disseminating misleading and untruthful stories to our allies.

BLITZER: Well, that is the proposal out there, Richard Pearle, but let me...

PEARLE: I don't think that is the proposal.

BLITZER: The proposal is there could be misleading information, disinformation given to confuse the enemy. It would be concealed -- the U.S. as a source, the U.S. government would be concealed, but isn't what's what's happening to a certain degree, Lawrence Korb, already with these leaflets that have been dropped on the battlefield in Afghanistan, leaflets, for example, showing Osama bin Laden wearing civilian clothes, his beard shaven? Clearly that was created, that was fictitious. Is that going beyond what you say is acceptable already?

KORB: Well, it's done by a different office. That's psychological operations. That story has been reported to the American people as what we are doing. Richard said it's not a problem if you lump it together. I think it is a problem if you don't have those firewalls between psychological operations and public affairs. And that's really the problem, as I understand it, the way this office is supposed to be set up, and that's why Secretary Rumsfeld is checking to see if it's legal.

PEARLE: Of course he's not going to do it if it isn't legal. Larry, relax. They are going to handle this with care and discretion. We are at war and let's try to win this war.

KORB: OK, but again, I think what's happening, my view is they put this out to see the reaction, just like with the military tribunals, and then they trim back their sales on this particular issue and I think you're right, if they don't go forward with this, it's not a problem. But I think as reported this is something that you need to be concerned about.

PEARLE: It's a question of how it's done, and it's going to be done right.

BLITZER: On that note, we are going to have to end this debate. Just to make it clear, the secretary of defense has not yet signed off on this proposal. It's still only a proposal. It is being seriously debated inside the Pentagon war rooms, just as it was debated here on the CNN WAR ROOM. Thanks to both of you, Richard Pearle, Lawrence Korb for joining us.

Remember, I want to hear from you. Please go to my Web page at CNN.com/wolf. Click on the designation for "comments" and they will reach me and my producers will read every single one of them. And from the Pentagon's public relations campaign to the global image of Islam, the faithful from around the world make a timeless journey.

We'll have that when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

This week, Muslims from around the world are observing one of the five pillars of Islam, a journey to Mecca. Two million people are gathering in the holy city to take part in the annual pilgrimage call the Hajj. CNN's Zain Verjee joins us. She's there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is the spiritual center of the Muslim world: the Ka'ba, a cube-like structure made of stone, draped in a black cloth. It's the direction to which Muslims all over the world turn to pray. Now, about two million of them will walk around it for their ultimate spiritual experience in Mecca.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's unbelievable. This is my fourth time I've gone to Saudi Arabia for the pilgrimage, and I love it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's great. I feel closer to my god.

VERJEE: Islam is Arabic for "submission to the will of God." More than one billion people in the world follow this religion, and every single one of them share two basic beliefs: that there is one god, and that this god has communicated to mankind through the prophet Mohammed and the sacred scripture revealed to him, the Koran.

The differences within Islam come from how it's been interpreted and the cultural context in which it's practiced. Muslims are as diverse as Western society. The streets of Mecca are filled with different faces and the sounds of different languages. Among the major practices of Islam, often referred to as the pillars: affirming the oneness of god, daily prayers, fasting during the month of Ramadan, giving to charity and the pilgrimage to Mecca, the Hajj.

(on camera): Here at the Hajj, there's been some discussion between pilgrims about what it means to be Muslim, and what Islam is all about. Many scholars believe that the key to understanding Islam is to ask this question: Whose Islam are we talking about, and who is defining it?

Zain Verjee, CNN, Mecca.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And the crisis in the Middle East and the war against terror. Coming up, what happened in Turkey that may tie them together. Plus, why it's raising concerns in Israel. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Topping this hour's "News Alert", President Bush has just arrived at the Blue House, the South Korean president's house in Seoul on the second leg of a six-day Asia trip amid criticism of his axis of evil remarks that he made about North Korea. Some people protesting the president's visit tried to break through an airport security barrier and clashed with police. CNN's John king, by the way, will have the latest tonight from the demilitarized zone between the two Koreas. That's "LIVE FROM THE DMZ" at about a half an hour at 8:00 Eastern, right at the top of the hour.

Turkish police, meanwhile, are trying to figure out if three suspects they're holding are tied to al Qaeda. Investigators say the two Palestinians and one Jordanian admit planning to launch suicide attacks in Israel, and that they were trained in camps in Afghanistan. The men were arrested when they allegedly ran a checkpoint entering Turkey from Iran.

And in the United States, in northwest Georgia, mourning families are holding a somber vigil this hour to honor their loved ones whose decomposing bodies were discovered at a crematory. Meantime, investigators are searching the home and property of the man who ran the Tri-State Crematory. At least 149 decaying bodies have now been found, including one discovered today in a coffin behind Ray Brent Marsh's house. Marsh now faces 16 felony counts.

That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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