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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Was Terrorist Plot Thwarted in Rome?; Will War Break Out in Israel?

Aired February 20, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: Police in Rome seize suspects, maps, and what may be a deadly chemical. Was a plot thwarted? Were the U.S. embassy and the city's water supply targeted?

All-out war? Israel pounds Palestinian targets by land, sea and air in response to a wave of deadly attacks.

Can the U.S. build an Afghan army in a land of feuding warlords? The top brass get a first-hand look.

And, the Pentagon says it will never lie to the media. Is it telling the truth? We'll go live to our correspondents and get analysis from former CIA director James Woolsey, as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

If you've been to Rome, you've probably seen the U.S. embassy along the beautiful Via Vittorio Veneto. That high-profile diplomatic mission has been the target of terrorists before and probably will be again. But now, Italian police have arrested four Moroccans and discovered lots of extremely worrisome material. And they suspect the embassy was their target. If it was a plot, the embassy may not have been the only possible target.

Let's go live to our Rome bureau chief, Alessio Vinci, standing by with more -- Alessio.

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN ROME BUREAU CHIEF: Hello, Wolf. Police officials here told the embassy staff here that throughout the day, they were investigating the possibility that the embassy was a -- there was a security threat against the embassy. And indeed, throughout the day, there was wide speculation here in the Italian media that those four Moroccans were planning an attack against that embassy.

However, it has emerged now that what the police has found in the apartment that they raided on Tuesday morning during the arrest was not pure cyanide, as earlier reported, but a derivative of it which is less toxic. And officials here and experts who have analyzed that composite say that, in its present form, the potassium cyanide was not able to poison the water. However, the experts also are saying that the substance, if it is heated strongly or mixed with hot acid, could in theory produce some toxic fumes. However, it is still unclear whether the people that were arrested on Tuesday could have heated the substance to such extent to make it really poisonous.

Italian investigators are now questioning the four suspects. They're still at the Regina Coeli prison here in downtown Rome. We do understand from earlier reports that they are denying all charges leveled against them and Italian officials, meanwhile, are saying also that the threat against possible U.S. targets here in Rome continues and that police are extremely vigilant at this time. Back to you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Alessio Vinci, thank you very much for that report. And we are following a breaking story out of the Middle East right now. Our Jerusalem bureau chief, Mike Hanna, joins us now on the phone with the very latest. What's going on, Mike?

MIKE HANNA, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Wolf, at the moment, reports that we are receiving from the Gaza Strip indicates that there is another major Israeli operation underway within the boundaries of Gaza City itself.

According to the reports that we are receiving, Israeli tanks and troops have entered Gaza City from two directions early Thursday as this is the first time in nearly 17 months of violence that Israeli forces have moved this far into Gaza City itself. We are receiving reports of gunfire being exchanged between the Israeli forces and Palestinians who are resisting the Israeli advance. At this stage, no indication of the extent of the casualties or what the eventual aim of this operation is. No formal comment from the Israeli defense force as yet.

Throughout the day, Wolf, there has been a series of strikes throughout the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank by Israeli forces carrying out massive operations directed at various targets, many of them offices of Palestinian security organizations as well as at offices of the Palestinian Authority leader, Yasser Arafat. Well over 20 Palestinians have been killed in the course of the day. All this in response to an attack Tuesday night in the West Bank in which six Israeli soldiers were killed in what was clearly a well planned Palestinian ambush.

Well earlier on this evening here in Jerusalem, the Israeli prime minister said Israel does not want any war. He said that the actions -- these operations will continue but he said as well that he wants to meet Palestinian leaders and will be doing so in the near future just as he did a couple of weeks ago. So widespread Israeli operations from the ground, but the prime minister still talking about some form of contact with the Palestinian leadership, Wolf.

BLITZER: Mike Hanna, giving us the very latest from Jerusalem on a developing story, Israeli troops moving into the Gaza Strip. We will continue to monitor that development.

Meanwhile here in Washington, the Pentagon has caught a lot of flak over suggestions that its new so-called office of strategic influence would fight terrorism by manipulating the news media. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, has been tracking all of these developments. She joins us now live with more -- Barbara.

BARBARA STARR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, good evening. Well, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was on the road today. He began his day out at the Winter Games in Salt Lake City meeting with the military troops who are providing security for those Games. But almost immediately, he was forced to address this controversy that erupted at the Pentagon yesterday about whether he is preparing a policy that would involve issuing disinformation to the foreign news media.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The United States of America has long had policies with respect to public information and we have policies where certainly we make a practice of assuring that what we tell the public is accurate and correct, and if in any event, somebody happens to be misinformed and say something that's not correct, they correct that at the earliest possible opportunity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: But of course, the secretary went on to say that the Pentagon would reserve the right to use deception on the battlefield to defeat a military enemy. Later in the day, he went to meet with airmen at Nellis Air Force base in Nevada and he warned that there is always the possibility of another terrorist attack.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUMSFELD: If one thinks about it, a terrorist can attack at any time, at any place, using any conceivable technique. You and I know it's impossible to defend in every single location at every moment of the day or night against every conceivable type of technique. It can't be done. That means that the only way you can deal with terrorists is to go after them. The only defense against terrorism is offense. It is preemption. It is finding them and rooting them out and stopping them and it's dealing with the countries that harbor them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STARR: But, Wolf, there was one lighter note during this meeting at Nellis Air Force Base. Rumsfeld had the audience laughing when he said even his wife is questioning him about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden. He said he's telling Mrs. Rumsfeld the same thing he's telling the rest of the world: he doesn't know -- Wolf.

BLITZER: At least he's being honest with her and with everyone else. Thank you very much, Barbara Starr, for that report.

And the United States has for years maintained a strong stance against paying off those who kidnap American citizens around the world. But a wide-ranging review of the overall policy on hostages may leave room for some exceptions. Let's go live to our state department correspondent, Andrea Koppel. She is following that -- Andrea.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, good evening. Well, there are going to be people out there who might find this too incredible to believe, but in what amounts to a major policy shift, administration sources tell me that the Bush administration has now decided that if an American is taken hostage, any American citizen taken hostage, they will perhaps, if necessary, pay ransom to win that person's release. This is something, as you mentioned, that has been categorically ruled out until now.

Now, officials explain the logic to me in the following way: They say, yes, they might pay the ransom but they're going to do everything they can to get that money back from the hostage takers. Therefore, their logic being the hostage takers have not gained anything by getting that ransom because the U.S. government would get it back.

This is something that is similar to what happened back in October, 2000 in Ecuador, when four American oil workers were taken hostage. One of them was killed, Wolf. The other three had their companies pay about $13 million ransom to get them back. Then, the U.S. government, in combination with the Colombians and the Ecuadorians, found those hostage takers and got the money back -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Andrea, how do they square the difference between on occasions, perhaps very rare occasions, paying ransom, but at the same time making no concessions to terrorists or to hostage holders, kidnappers? There's a nuance there. Explain to our viewers what is going on.

KOPPEL: The nuance is that if they get the money back, money that they've paid to a kidnapper, to a hostage taker, and they've won the freedom of the person that's been kidnapped and they get the money back, then the hostage takers have gained nothing in the process. The most important thing officials tell me is that American citizens are freed, and if their companies can't pay, even though this is something that the U.S. government views as a last resort, if their companies can't pay, if their family members can't pay a ransom, then the U.S. government believes that the most important thing is perhaps to pay the money, get it back in the long run, but win the release of that American citizen.

BLITZER: Andrea Koppel, thanks for that clarification. Appreciate it very much.

Is al Qaeda still a potent threat to the United States? Is the terror network breaking up, or reorganizing to strike again? Joining me here in the CNN WAR ROOM: The former CIA Director James Woolsey. Remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions. Go to my Web page, CNN.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily online column.

First, Director Woolsey, on this policy shift that Andrea Koppel just annunciated. What's your reaction to that? JAMES WOOLSEY, FORMER CIA DIRECTOR: Well, I think it's probably always been the case that individuals or their families or their companies might choose, against, say, government advice, to pay ransom, and usually they would cooperate with the government in a way that, you know, money might be marked, something might be put in the package as a beacon or something so that it could be used as part of a way of not only getting the money back but capturing the kidnappers.

What seems to be different here is it looks like the U.S. government may be going from the policy of not paying to, quote, "denying the benefits." In other words, even the government from time to time making some payments, hopefully very, very temporary, and getting them back. That's an important change.

My initial reaction is kind of negative. I think it's sort of like the notion of moral hazard in investment: If you bail out unwise investors, they're going to keep being unwise.

BLITZER: What you're suggesting is that it might encourage additional kidnappings?

WOOLSEY: Exactly. It could. But it seems to me there's a difference between the old policy of perhaps letting a family or a company go along with this -- and what I guess created the problem is if American public servants, diplomats, soldiers are -- are taken by hostage takers, it would perhaps very difficult for their family to come up with enough to work this kind of gambit against the hostage takers.

But this is an important change, and I suppose they must have done it after very careful deliberation, but it does seem to me to be rather troubling.

BLITZER: All right. Well, we will continue to monitor it and see precisely how far the Bush administration is willing to go in this potential change.

Let's talk about this incident in Rome. Four Moroccans arrested by Italian police. They had a map, circled the U.S. embassy, some cyanide derivative, water sources going to the embassy elsewhere in Rome. Does this have the fingerprints of al Qaeda?

WOOLSEY: It could, because there could have been a number of operations that were incompletely planned or partly planned, and they were out there with cells ready to take place. And somehow, either on their own, or from some communication from al Qaeda leadership, the people may have gotten the signal to move out. Now, happily, they apparently were not able to get the cyanide to be powerful enough, at least according to the most recent report, to work.

Some of these poisons and biological agents and chemical agents are tricky to work with. Aum Shinri Kyo, the Japanese cult that released the poison gas in the subway in Tokyo some years ago could never get the biological weapons to work right. So, happily some of these things are harder than one might think. I guess my first reaction here is three cheers for the Italian police. My second one is Moroccans. Hmm. This is sort of the first Moroccans that we've seen in this. This al Qaeda business, if they are in fact al Qaeda, would seem to span both geographically and in terms of national attitudes and so forth, a very large share of the Muslim world.

BLITZER: The one suspect, the 20th so-called hijacker, Moussaoui, was French but of Moroccan ancestry. So it may not necessarily be that much of an aberration. If you're taking a look, though, at what al Qaeda right now is still capable of doing, with its leadership fleeing for their lives right now, but they probably still have a base from which they can operate?

WOOLSEY: Well, they may have some form of back-up communication, something that's put in the press somewhere. If these cells are relatively independent and don't need further guidance, they may have a lot of things in the hopper, so to speak, ready to go with. And some of these groups may be going on their own, or some of them may be triggered by some kind of communication from bin Laden or someone else.

BLITZER: And as you well remember, and our viewers of course remember, U.S. embassies in East Africa were the targets, the Rome embassy a very, very visible, high profile diplomatic mission, a symbol of the United States right in the heart of Rome.

WOOLSEY: Yes, it's also very beautiful.

BLITZER: It's a beautiful embassy. Both of us have been there.

I want to read an e-mail that I got from Rick in Medford, New York to get your reaction. "Recently, there have been reports of agents of the Iranian government infiltrating Afghanistan in order to destabilize the interim government. Is there any possibility that U.S. forces could be used against the Iranians in order to protect our interests?"

WOOLSEY: Zalmai Kalil-zad (ph), the U.S. representative, first said something about that I think publicly a few days ago, and then there was a big Bill Gertz story in "The Washington Times" about it.

BLITZER: Yesterday.

WOOLSEY: Yesterday. I think it's very troubling. I think it's unlikely that the U.S. would use force in the near term against Iran directly. Now, I would love to see if some of these Iranians backing al Qaeda now are -- and warlords are -- can be found in Afghanistan. They would be I think a wonderful target for a daisy cutter.

But if one is talking about attacking Iran itself, I don't think that's in the cards any time in the near future, and I think it's not wise. We don't want to drive all these idealistic students and reformers and people in Iran who are trying to change their terrible regime into the arms of the murderous mullahs who run the instruments of power in the state. Iraq is a very different situation, because it's a total and complete dictatorship. Iran is in ferment, and I hope we can do everything possible to check their use of terror abroad, but I'd be very skeptical that there were any plans of the U.S. government to move militarily against Iran itself.

BLITZER: OK. James Woolsey, as usual, thank you very much.

WOOLSEY: Good to be with you.

BLITZER: Thank you.

And when we come back, will the United States military stay in Afghanistan to help build an Afghan military? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. While the Taliban had been overthrown and al Qaeda has been scattered, the U.S. military's top officer is paying a visit to Afghanistan, saying there's more work to be done. Let's go live to our Martin Savidge. He's on the scene in Kandahar in Afghanistan. Marty, tell us what's going on.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Wolf. General Richard Myers, the chairman of the joint chiefs, was here at the Kandahar air base. This was the last stop of what had been a five-day tour of the region here.

Specifically, he said the reason that he had come into Kandahar, that he had visited the region, was to meet with U.S. soldiers to thank them for the hard work that they had done. Also, it was the opportunity for him to meet with local and regional leaders to also express the United States' appreciation for their support during Operation Enduring Freedom.

During a news conference, I had the opportunity to talk to him about a timeline. Specifically, how long will U.S. forces remain in Afghanistan? How long and how much more of this operation remains still to be done? He was reticent to give a specific timeline. He simply said there is more work that needs to be done. Here is exactly what General Myers had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: There still is a mission here in Afghanistan. There are still significant, we think, pockets of al Qaeda and Taliban. There is still some leadership of these organizations that we think are still in Afghanistan. And until we, you know, do our best to eradicate those pockets, I think we will be here for whatever time it takes after that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SAVIDGE: I asked General Myers about an operation that took place last weekend in a region over an area called Khowst. The reason that this has raised a few eyebrows here is because it involved U.S. aircraft dropping bombs. But apparently the targets were not al Qaeda and not Taliban, but for the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) may have been simply Afghan forces that are in opposition to the interim government in Kabul. He said he knew nothing about that specific strategy. He said the reason for the attack was that U.S. forces operating with Afghan forces in the region had come under fire. They returned fire and part of that fire included dropping bombs from the air. It was not the opening of a new phase, he says -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Martin Savidge reporting live from Kandahar. Thank you very much. And this important note: Marty Savidge will be back in about, oh, let's say, 35 minutes or so reporting live from Afghanistan at 8:00 p.m., right at the top of the hour, 5:00 on the West Coast.

And remember, I want to hear from you. Please go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. Click on the designation for comments and I'll read them. My producers will read them, as we do every single day.

Coming up, we'll check the latest developments. A train becomes a fiery death trap for hundreds of travelers in Egypt. Possible cause? Our CNN "News Alert", we'll have that and more when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

A deadly train fire in Egypt tops this hour's "News Alert." At least 373 people were killed when fire swept through a crowded passenger train near Cairo. Some victims died when they leaped from the moving train. Egypt's prime minister says gas stoves used by passengers might have caused the fire.

President Bush is on his way to China. He's wrapped up a visit to South Korea that included a tour of the Demilitarized Zone. There, he got a first-hand glimpse of North Korea, a country he's dubbed part of an axis of evil. But the president assured his host he supports diplomatic efforts to bring the two Koreas closer.

And the debate over executing mentally retarded killers is back before the United States Supreme Court. Justices are reviewing the case of Virginia inmate Daryl Atkins, whose IQ is 59. The main issue: Is there now a national consensus against such executions? When the court last reviewed the issue in 1989, only two states banned them. Now 18 have.

And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. On our 7:00 p.m. program, a look back 30 years, former president Nixon's trip to China. We will speak with the former secretary of state who helped him, Henry Kissinger.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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