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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Operation Anaconda Rages On; Has Lewinsky Scandal Returned?

Aired March 06, 2002 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You cannot defend against terrorists by hunkering down. You simply must go after them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Operation Anaconda rages on. A spectacular look at the battle, as our camera takes you right to the front lines.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was just, keep my head down, take good shots, and hopefully make sure I got some people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Is the Lewinsky scandal back? Now the final word from the independent counsel. Was Bill Clinton's presidency just misunderstood? I'll ask author and veteran Clinton-watcher, Joe Klein.

And test-tube dangers: the risks for babies conceived with the help of science.

Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer at the CNN center in Atlanta. U.S. forces are unleashing deadly force in Afghanistan. That tops our news alert.

Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters are taking a beating. That's the latest word from the American commander of Operation Anaconda. The allied offensive in the rugged mountains of eastern Afghanistan is encountering fierce resistance from well-armed fighters holed up in caves. But U.S. officials say hundreds of the enemy have been killed. We'll have much more on this in a moment.

A somber journey comes to an end. The bodies of seven of the eight American servicemen killed in Operation Anaconda arrived in the United States on a flight from Germany. From Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, the remains will be returned to their families. The body of the eighth American killed in action arrived in Dover over the weekend. In the Afghan capital of Kabul, five international peacekeepers were killed today. It happened when they were trying to diffuse a missile. The dead included three peacekeepers from Denmark and two from Germany. Seven peacekeepers were injured, three seriously.

U.S. officials say they believe al Qaeda fighters may be trying to regroup in Pakistan. They refuse to discuss their evidence, but according to a report in "The New York Times," intercepted e-mail messages and Web sites point to a reorganization effort. An official tells CNN al Qaeda's goal may be to rejoin Taliban forces in Pakistan.

More now on the heavy fighting involving U.S. and allied forces in the mountains of eastern Afghanistan. U.S. officials say the tide is turning against al Qaeda and Taliban fighters holed up in the hard- to-reach caves. They say hundreds of the enemy have been killed since Operation Anaconda began Friday.

But the U.S. commander of U.S. forces in Afghanistan, General Tommy Franks, today raised the possibility of ordering more troops and firepower into the battle. More now on the fighting from CNN's Martin Savidge, who accompanied some U.S. troops into combat.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Operation Anaconda is still going 'round the clock in eastern Afghanistan. And the forces of the coalition members continue to grow on the scene. U.S. commanders say that they are not feeling daunted by how, initially, it got off to a rocky start. Now they say that the al Qaeda forces are definitely on the run, on the move, and have no place to go but into the hands of those coalition soldiers waiting to greet them one way or another.

It was first started as an air brigade assault. Essentially, that means one large military effort all conducted from the air using helicopters, large ones, CH-47s, MH-47s. These are sort of flying buses that transport the troops in.

The soldiers are packed inside with the weapons and ammunition, everything else they may need, almost sitting one on top of the other. Forty, 45, and even more soldiers packed inside. Soldiers say that's their most frightening part of the combat journey: just before landing and just after taking off when they're done. Because the helicopters on the ground are the most vulnerable. So are the soldiers inside of them.

Once out, we followed these soldiers as they moved off to investigate and then destroy Taliban al Qaeda caves. These caves are often used by many of the mortar teams that are dropping the weapons on the coalition forces. They're hard to spot, but once they find them, the soldiers use shoulder-launch missiles, firing into the mountain face, destroying the cave itself, perhaps probably killing those that may still be inside.

They move on from cave to cave. After that, the operation we were following turned south, heading to the village of Shir Kantil (ph). This was thought to be a headquarters for both Taliban and al Qaeda forces. No sooner had the U.S. and coalition troops set up on the ridge overlooking the village, when suddenly they found themselves in the middle of one big firefight. It began with small automatic weapon fire, AK-47s, then moved up to heavy machine gun fire, and then the mortars.

But the coalition forces weren't daunted, and they weren't driven away from their posts. Instead they returned fire a similar amount of fire. Also, they called in air support, and that proved to be the trump card. Wave after wave of fighter bombers and B-52 bombers dropped an endless supply of heavy bombs and ammunition on that village. It quickly brought an end to the firefight.

U.S. forces and their commanders say that they have the Taliban exactly where they want them: on the run with no place left to go. Martin Savidge, CNN, Bagram, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Meanwhile, international security forces in Afghanistan are warning of a credible threat to kidnap a non-Afghan journalist in that country. Peter Baker knows firsthand the dangers journalists in Afghanistan face. He's a foreign correspondent for "The Washington Post." He joins us now live by phone from Gardez, in Afghanistan.

Peter, tell us about your experience, first of all. Do you believe you were ever in any personal danger?

PETER BAKER, FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT, "WASHINGTON POST": Yeah, I think we were a couple days ago. We were visiting the town of Zermat (ph), which is the hometown of the Taliban leader who's holed up in Shah-e-Kot. And our translator overheard a couple of them talking about holding us as hostages, because they were mad that their own local commander had been arrested by the American troops.

BLITZER: So what did you wind up doing to try to escape from that kind of situation?

BAKER: Well, before we screwed up the courage to actually do it, we immediately got in our cars and left town. We left as quickly as we could, and tried to warn other journalists along the way. But one of our colleagues ended up being attacked and seriously wounded. A Canadian reporter named Kathleen Kennah (ph).

BLITZER: So what are you doing now, Peter? And I should inform our viewers, Peter is an old friend of mine. We covered the White House together during the Clinton years. This is a far cry from the White House right now, Peter. What are you doing to bolster your own personal safety?

BAKER: Well, we have very much restricted our own movements, I'm afraid to say. We have not gone to as many places as we would like to go to. The town your reporter was just at, we've been told it's too dangerous to go to on our own, without U.S. military. And they won't take us with them here. So we're trying very hard to look out and be careful.

BLITZER: And do you have security personnel that "The Washington Post" has provided you? BAKER: No, we don't travel that way. You know, we travel light and quick. And if we go out of town, we try to engage local Afghans, security guards, to go with us.

BLITZER: Peter Baker, an excellent reporter from "The Washington Post" on the front lines in Afghanistan. Take care of yourself. See you back in Washington. Thanks for that report.

And for more now on what U.S military leaders are saying about Operation Anaconda, we join our military affairs correspondent, Jamie McIntyre. He's over at the Pentagon. Jamie, tell us what they said today at the Pentagon.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, they've been saying for days that this fierce resistance they got from al Qaeda fighters was no surprise. But now that we're beginning to get firsthand accounts back from the battlefield, we're learning that some of the soldiers there have a different perspective on the kind of fighting, such as the fighting inflicted, the casualties of U.S. troops that were traveling in on CH-47 helicopters.

U.S. troops, sources say, were told essentially that they would -- that faced with overwhelming force, the al Qaeda forces would likely flee, not fight the way they did in Tora Bora. And that the U.S. forces would have them trapped. But that's not the way it worked out. Some of the Apache helicopters that were part of that initial operation were disabled by ground fire, although they all got safely back.

Now we're told that the U.S. is sending more Apaches there, and they've moved some Marine helicopters closer in, as a precaution. But sources say it's unlikely that those assault helicopters will be sent back into battle on the front lines.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GENERAL TOMMY FRANKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND COMMANDER: What we want to be sure of is that we have a sufficient helicopter. It is not in response to a particular thing. But what we want to be sure of is that we have enough gunships or attack helicopters to be able to do anything that may happen in the objective area.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: General Franks saying that it is a dangerous environment for assault helicopters. And with those assault helicopters, the dangerous task of close air support for U.S. troops has been taken over by A-10s, the tank-busting planes that were used a lot in the Persian Gulf war. They're flying out of Pakistan.

Also, AC-130 gunships picking up some of the slack. Over the last day or so the U.S. has sent in some 2- to 300 additional troops. The Pentagon insists that those are not reinforcements. They are simply part of the repositioning, as Operation Anaconda unfolds.

BLITZER: So, Jamie, bottom line, is anyone over there venturing any guess how much longer this battle in eastern Afghanistan is going to continue?

MCINTYRE: Well, Secretary Rumsfeld said that he believes the outcome is virtually assured, and that the remaining Taliban will either be killed or forced to surrender. People are talking here about that this will probably go on a matter of days, not weeks.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much.

Joining us now: a man who was in Afghanistan watching Operation Anaconda unfold, inside the U.S. military's electronic warfare room. He is Congressman Robin Hayes. He viewed live pictures taken from an unmanned aircraft of the battlefield.

Congressman Hayes, thank you for joining us. What did you see when you were there, about this Operation Anaconda, from the unique vantage point that you had?

REP. ROBIN HAYES (R), NORTH CAROLINA: Well, Wolf, I saw how incredibly well trained, committed and courageous our soldiers are. Fort Bragg, 82th airborne, 19th airborne corps, they're all in my district, so I know these people well. And their skills were shown over and over again and the courage, in this particular battle. It really brings it home to you what a risk they take, and the dangers they take.

At the same time, it served to point out how incredibly competent these young men and women are who are facing the enemy and doing such a great job. We will win the war on terrorism in Afghanistan. It's going to be because of their dedication and performance.

BLITZER: I take it, Congressman, you saw some live pictures from one of those unmanned Predator aircraft, that has that video capability to bring back to intelligence headquarters live images -- is that right?

HAYES: That is correct. A very important part of our command and control facilities there.

BLITZER: And what did it look like? Give your viewers, who don't have a sense of being in that kind of situation, being in that kind of room, give us a flavor of what you saw.

HAYES: Well, Wolf, the danger is certainly preeminent in everything that you see there. But then the hostile environment that you're in, very high altitude, which affects the performance of our helicopters. Very rugged terrain. Easy for the al Qaeda forces who, basically, are Arabs and Chechen, not Afghans, gives them very good places they can hide. They have well established positions in caves, where they can take their mortars and protect them. They're well supplied there, so that's why it's going to be so hard to dig them out.

But our forces are doing it. They're doing a great job. Winning the war on terrorism in Afghanistan is what they're about. And I am so proud of what they're doing and how they're doing it. BLITZER: And I know over the weekend you had a chance to meet with Hamid Karzai, the interim leer of Afghanistan. Does he believe that he, together with the international peace-keeping force backed by the United States, can secure all of the countryside, that huge Texas- size country that is Afghanistan?

HAYES: He does believe that that can be done. He's committed to that. And over and over again he expressed his appreciation for the U.S and coalition forces. His direct quote to me, a message to take home to Fayetteville, in Fort Bragg, was, "These folks, which we appreciate so much, saved us from hell." That's exactly what he said.

BLITZER: Congressman Robin Hayes of North Carolina. Thank so much for joining us, giving us that firsthand account.

And Operation Anaconda, the heaviest fighting so far for U.S. forces in Afghanistan. It is far removed from the Persian Gulf War, and even farther from Vietnam. But the one similarity is obvious: combat and all the emotions that rush through a soldier under fire.

Here now, the pictures of war and the comments of combat veteran and CNN military analyst, retired Air Force Major General Don Shepperd.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET), U.S. AIR FORCE: This is great reporting by CNN and by Martin Savidge. It's the first time we've been with the soldiers and get a feeling for what is really going on in the battlefield. This is standard light infantry work and very, very dangerous.

This looks like a Colorado ski area. Looks like we're making an attack in Vail or Aspen, something like that -- lots of places to hide. And they're going to get you when you're most vulnerable. They're going to wait until you go into a hover. They're going to shoot at you and they're going to try to hit you when you're in the hover.

Quite frankly, we would rather fight at night many cases, because the other side can't fight as well. We can see better at night than the other side. No matter how you cut it, it is very dangerous and difficult to fight at night. It's difficult to fly the helicopters to the extremes. Depth perception becomes a problem, but we train constantly at this type of thing. So we now own 24 hours of the clock. We used to be able to fight only at day.

You'd rather go in at night because as fewer people can see you to shoot at you. But as you saw, they shot at us the other day at night, and they hit us and downed a helicopter. So, if they're laying in wait for you and planning to get you, they're going to get you when you go into your hover to put troops in shoot. They're going to shoot you when you're most vulnerable. So you're always vulnerable in these operations.

The weapon that we saw fired at the cave -- well, I can't tell exactly. It's probably a 136, M-136 Army -- it's a primary light antitank weapon. It's got a punch. It's 84 millimeters. It's like a huge mortar gets in there. Shrapnel goes everywhere, destroys things and people that are in the opening.

But it's hard to hit something with this. You fire it from a long distance. And getting it in the opening is the key. Remember, you're focusing on the opening and trying to get it right in the opening. And further, people are shooting at you while you're shooting. So it's just dangerous, light-infantry work, is what our soldiers do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: That was General Don Shepperd, our military analyst.

Joining us now in the CNN map room with more insight into Operation Anaconda, another military analyst, retired U.S. Air Force General George Harrison. General Harrison, thanks for joining us. I want to show our viewers some pictures that have been coming in from the front lines. Tell us a bit about U.S. forces.

GEN. GEORGE HARRISON (RET), MILITARY ANALYST, AIR FORCE: As General Shepperd just told you, training is the key to all this. These troops are in absolute superb physical condition. When they're working in the States, they're constantly going through physical conditioning and training. And training in the Army is not a matter of sitting at a computer terminal and figuring out intellectual options. It's a matter of being physically tough, and being capable of moving around in a tactical fashion. "Move, shoot and communicate" is the way they operate. So that's the key to their success.

And while those packs are heavy, they understand when to shed the portion of the pack and move out tactically, and when to keep it with them so that they have the capability to continue on in a different mode.

BLITZER: How heavy are those packs, General?

HARRISON: Up to 150 pounds, depending on the mission of the particular soldier and what he's doing. Of course, one of the thing the Army does conscientiously is lighten the pack and reduce the load that the soldier has to carry as much as possible. So they're stripped down to combat weight, and they can further strip down when they have to move very quickly.

BLITZER: I'm sure you noticed, as I did, General, that those troops, high up in the mountains in the snowy area were wearing camouflage instead of white uniforms. And I'm going to put that up. You can see these pictures right now. Would they have been better off wearing white instead of the camouflage?

HARRISON: Well, of course, the camouflage they're wearing is called desert camouflage. It's a beige that lets them blend in with the terrain that you see at the top of the screen. The 10th mountain division, I'm sure, are equipped with white camouflage. When they think it's appropriate, they can cover with white. But they are very conscious of the need to cover and deceive and tactically operate, so that there is -- they reduce their vulnerability to the maximum extent possible.

So you can be sure that, with some exceptions, they're ready to cover with white gear when required.

BLITZER: And, General Harrison, you're standing near a map. Right now, most of the fighting of Operation Anaconda has been at the higher elevation. It is possible the fighting will move lower in the coming days?

HARRISON: Well, it's possible. But as you can see, the fighting in this area, that's going on down around here in the mountainous areas, there are ways that people could have been located down in the lower elevations. Now, hopefully -- I'm sure, that tactically, the Army has established blocking and reconnaissance positions, so that the battlefield is isolated and they won't be taken by surprise.

Now, if there are any stay-behind forces down here, I'm sure they're lying low, because they're much easier to find and dig out, than the people that are located in the caves that we've been talking about.

BLITZER: Well, based on what the al Qaeda fighters, their Taliban supporters, those who have been fighting the U.S. in these past few days -- what strategy, in the long-term, do they appear to have, based on what they've done over the past few days?

HARRISON: Well, I suspect their long-term strategy was to try to suck us into the mountains, generate a lot of casualties and get the American people very impatient with the high casualty rate. That doesn't seem to be working. Apparently, our forces -- our strategy is to be very determined. Move in and take them out as an effective fighting force.

So, their only possible option right now is to delay and defend. That's not a very attractive option, when you don't have an escape route. So I think that their options are very limited. They say they want to fight to the death, and I think they have the opportunity to do that.

BLITZER: General Harrison, thanks, as usual, for joining us. We appreciate it very much.

HARRISON: Sure.

BLITZER: This important note: Martin Savidge will take you to the front lines of the war tonight in "LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN." That's at 8:00 Eastern. He was there as soldiers risked their lives in Operation Anaconda. He risked his life to bring you the story, so you'll want to watch it, 8:00 p.m. Eastern tonight, 5:00 on the West Coast.

When we come back, he made a deal and put the Lewinsky scandal behind him, but today it came back. The final word on President Clinton's wrongdoing. And later, the book that may change your opinion about the former president.

And, did defense lawyers for Andrea Yates do their best? Coming up: a man who says they didn't do enough.

And cause for concern for couples planning children. The test- tube technology that may not be as safe as you think.

First, our news quiz: How old is the first person born with the help of test tube baby technology? Is she 23, 29, 36, or 40? The answer, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

There was enough evidence to charge President Clinton for his actions in the Monica Lewinsky scandal. That's the finding in the final report by Robert Ray, the independent counsel who replaced Ken Starr. The report, released today, goes on to say Ray opted not to prosecute, in part because of the other penalties Clinton received, including fines, suspension of his law license and his impeachment.

Clinton's lawyer, David Kendall, said there's nothing new in the report and -- quote -- "it's time to move on." Joining us now to talk about the Clinton years is Joe Klein. He's the author of the new book, "The Natural: the Misunderstood Presidency of Bill Clinton.

Joe Klein joins us now from New York. Joe Klein, thanks for joining us. When you look back on the Clinton presidency -- you covered it from day one, you covered the campaign in '92, as all of us recall your articles at the time. What's the biggest misunderstanding that we may have about Bill Clinton?

JOE KLEIN, AUTHOR: Well, I think we've seen a little bit of the evidence of it today. Clearly, most of us have a different definition of what "is" is, from what President Clinton had. And so did Robert Gray, for sure.

But this is the end of the special prosecutor era. And good riddance! You know, it's like the latter-day equivalent of prohibition. Thank God it's now gone. And that means that the carnival has left town, and maybe it's time for us to be able to take a close look at what Clinton actually accomplished, aside from the scandals -- and what he didn't accomplish. And that's what I tried to do in "The Natural."

BLITZER: And one thing you're very up-front in the book, is the way Clinton was able to seduce to court, not only to his aides and his staff, but reporters, as well. In one part of your book, you write this, referring to your daughter Sophie, a conversation she had with the then-candidate in '92.

"Sophie," Clinton said, "I know that your father hasn't been home much these past few months. He's been with me, but he talks about you all the time."

KLEIN: Shameless. Shameless!

BLITZER: But it worked, right?

KLEIN: Well, it worked with Sophie. It was pretty clear to me that he was spinning, but he was doing it in a nice way, and it meant a lot to her. You know, one of the dirty little secrets of politics -- I've been doing this for 33 years -- most politicians don't like people very much. Bill Clinton survived, and in many ways prospered, because the folks knew that he liked them, and that he cared about them. That was the reason why his popularity ratings remained so high throughout his presidency. And he acted on that substantively.

One thing most people don't know about Bill Clinton is that the year of the balanced budget, he got a program through the Republican Congress that made college, in effect, an entitlement for the first two years, for 10 million people a year in the working and middle class.

I mean, that's more people than took advantage of the GI bill. It's a big deal, the Hope scholarship program. But we were so busy covering the campaign finance scandal, or non-scandal, that we never really noticed it. And there are things like that stud his whole presidency.

There's no way you can defend his personal behavior. And there's no way you can defend a lot of his foreign policy, and there's no way you can defend what he did with health insurance. I mean, what Mrs. Clinton did with health insurance in 1994.

But there were a lot of other things that he did that were substantive and were difficult, and were courageous.

BLITZER: One other excerpt I want to put up on the screen, from the book, "The Natural." You write this: "All of Clinton's emotional sensitivity seemed to be expended in his work, which meant that there was not much decency or graciousness left over for the help. His self-involvement, self-indulgent and all too often, self pity, were notorious. And yet, the staff was intensely loyal, with a deep sense of political mission."

I covered that Clinton White House like you did. Why was that staff so loyal, even after they were lied to by the president about his relationship with Monica Lewinsky?

KLEIN: Well, because this was -- you know, this was a very important presidency for Democrats. This was a guy who made the Democratic Party acceptable in America once again, and he was doing important work on behalf of -- especially the working poor, but also of all people. You know, one of the great judges of character in politics -- I think you'll agree, Wolf -- is whether a politician has the courage to go against his strongest supporters in the base of his party.

And Clinton did that again and again. He did it when he reduced the deficit, rather than spend more money on programs. He did that when he backed free trade, even though the heart of the Democratic Party was against it. And he did it on welfare reform, when the heart of the Democratic Party, and perhaps even his wife, were opposed to that.

So, those moments, those sorts of principle stands, were what kept the staff loyal. Do you feel that way too?

BLITZER: Well, I may or may not feel that way. But let me ask you this question, which I don't have a good answer for, and I covered him during all those years. And maybe you have an answer, based on all the work that you've done, including the work in the new book.

Why would he be as reckless as he was with Monica Lewinsky and risk all of that effort that he tried to achieve, just to be with Monica Lewinsky? Did you come up with a good explanation for that?

KLEIN: Oh, sure. No, how could you! It's an act of total insanity. And the worst part of it, Wolf, is what he said to Ken Starr on that famous day when he was giving his testimony. He said, if you recall, that he expected Monica Lewinsky to tell her friends. He expected this to get out. That's the kind of self-destructiveness that's mind-boggling. I don't know if Freud could get there, to figure out what that was about.

BLITZER: I can't figure it out myself, and you can't figure it out. Maybe someday when we read his book, we'll be able to understand that a little bit more. Joe Klein, the book is "The Natural," thanks for joining us.

KLEIN: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: When we come back, does Andrea Yates deserve to live? Coming up, her defense team tries to save her life. But my next guest says they may not succeed. We'll tell you why.

And later, if ABC shelves "Nightline," where would the popular host end up?

And, word of caution to mothers who are planning on using science to conceive. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Operation Anaconda tops our "News Alert" this half hour: U.S. military commanders say al Qaeda and Taliban fighters are taking a beating in Eastern Afghanistan. But Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld warned Operation Anaconda won't be the last major battle of the war on terror.

Nine of the more than 40 American troops injured in Operation Anaconda arrived in Germany a few hours ago. They are being treated at a military hospital near Ramstein Air Base. More casualties are expected to arrive by the end of the week.

And officials say the cleanup effort at ground zero is going faster than anticipated, with 83 percent of the debris now removed. They predict the former site of the World Trade Center will be cleared by May, four months ahead of the original estimate.

The defense is wrapping up its case today in the murder trial of Andrea Yates. The final witness: a psychiatrist who interviewed the Texas mother after she drowned her five children.

Carolyn Mungo from CNN affiliate KHOU is covering the trial. She joins us now live from Houston.

Give us an update, Carolyn. What happened today?

CAROLYN MUNGO, KHOU REPORTER: Well, right at this moment, that defense last witness is being cross-examined by the state, but not before providing some incredibly compelling testimony for this jury.

That testimony came in the form of two videotapes, videotaped interviews this doctor had with Andrea Yates after she killed her children, while she was in jail. The first interview was done five weeks after the murders. Andrea Yates looks disheveled, unkempt. She spends 40 to 50 seconds in silence before answering any of the doctor's questions and then finally saying that Satan was inside her and is still inside her during that interview.

But, after that, the jury got to see a dramatic difference in Andrea Yates. Another interview was shown, a videotaped interview taken two weeks before this trial started. And the difference is unbelievable. Andrea Yates looked clean. Her hair was washed. She talked. She had expression. She smiled. And she said to the doctor, "The psychosis has left me. The visions are gone. It was like a fog before now. But now it's a lot clearer" -- back to you.

BLITZER: And, Carolyn, is there a sense of relief in Houston, in the area in general, that this trial may be wrapping up?

MUNGO: Yes, this has taken -- we are in our third week of testimony.

The defense has put on eight different psychiatrists to say basically the same thing: that Andrea Yates was so sick she did not know right from wrong when she killed her children on June 10. The jury, as well as everyone in that courtroom, has been hearing that over and over and over again. And tomorrow, it will be the state's turn to rebut that insanity defense.

BLITZER: Carolyn Mungo of our affiliate KHOU, thanks so much for updating us. And thanks for that report.

And joining us now with more on this Yates case and the legal strategy is civil rights attorney and law professor Avery Friedman.

Avery, thanks, once again, for joining us.

AVERY FRIEDMAN, LAW PROFESSOR: Nice to be here, Wolf.

BLITZER: I want to go through whether or not the defense, the team representing Andrea Yates, managed to do their job and try to avert a death sentence, if you will. For example, on the first question, "Did the defendant know right from wrong?" the defense has to show that the defendant couldn't differentiate. Did they make that case?

FRIEDMAN: It is going to be difficult to make that case, Wolf, because, remember, there is a flat standard. The defendant had to discern between right and wrong, but they have to match that up against a very complicated mental illness. And that's schizophrenia. And one can be normal in one moment and not in another.

BLITZER: So, yes or no, did they make the case that she could differentiate -- she couldn't differentiate between right and wrong?

FRIEDMAN: At this point, I don't think they have met that burden.

BLITZER: So the answer is no.

What about the historical cases, the precedents, the citations they had to make to show that she was not guilty, innocent as a result of insanity?

FRIEDMAN: Remember that, in order to establish insanity as a defense, commonly an introduction of history is introduced. In this case, as we most recently heard, there was a history, but there were times where it was clear the defendant, Mrs. Yates, seemed to be lucid. So I don't think they have met that standard either.

BLITZER: So no on history as well.

FRIEDMAN: No on history also.

BLITZER: What about the scientific evidence of her mental illness? Did they successfully make that case?

FRIEDMAN: This has been a case of dueling experts. And what the prosecution has done is cross-examine a body of, I think, eight experts so far. And they are going to be cross-examining the last expert. So, in reality, their burden is -- that is, the prosecution's burden really isn't there. It is on the defense. And I don't think they are going to meet that burden either.

BLITZER: So no, no and no as far as three of these important...

FRIEDMAN: No, no, no.

BLITZER: ... aspects of the case.

Having said that, there are 12 members of the jury. You only need one of them to disagree with you and she gets -- what? What happens?

FRIEDMAN: She walks.

BLITZER: That's it. FRIEDMAN: The case is over.

BLITZER: And a Texas jury, usually they are pretty tough. But, in this particular case, what do we know about the jury?

FRIEDMAN: Well, a typical Texas jury, but bear this in mind. If the prosecution blows the case, she was only indicted on three murders. There are still two cases, two children who died. And Mrs. Yates has not been indicted for that. So, if this case goes up in smoke for the prosecution, look for two more indictments.

BLITZER: OK, Avery Friedman, always good of you to join me. Thanks for coming in. Appreciate it very much.

And when we come back: a key leader endorses a land-for-peace deal in the Middle East. Will the push for a cease-fire be enough to unwind the spiral of violence that is cutting down Jew and Palestinian alike?

And the late-night debate: Could comedy take over from journalism? Some news stars have an opinion about that.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

With no end in sight to the daily violence and killings in the Middle East, President Bush is said to be looking for a way to stop the bloodshed. That's the word today from the White House press secretary, Ari Fleischer. And at the same time, both Secretary of State Colin Powell and U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan had sharp words for Israel and the Palestinians. Both officials say neither is doing enough to stop the fighting. There rebuke came amid more attacks and more deaths.

Our Jerusalem bureau chief, Mike Hanna, now with details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE HANNA, CNN JERUSALEM BUREAU CHIEF: Ariel Sharon has canceled a proposed visit to Europe which he was due to take in the next few days, an indication of how seriously he views the situation.

And serious it is. Once again, there were massive Israeli military operations, this time concentrated in the Gaza Strip. At least seven Palestinians were killed in the course of the morning. And two Israeli soldiers also are dead, this in response, says Israel, to a Palestinian rocket attack on a southern Israeli town, that of Sderot, which injured an 18-month-old baby.

Israel had warned in the past that use of homemade rockets against Israeli towns would be met with a radical military response. And, certainly, the response was very intense in the Gaza Strip in the course of the day, clashes also reported in various parts of the West Bank, as Israeli forces and Palestinian gunmen exchanged fire on a number of occasions.

Well, exactly one year ago, Ariel Sharon was sworn in as prime minister. And, at the time, he promised to bring security to Israel and economic prosperity. Well, as to security, the conflict is now at unprecedented levels, with more than 80 people having been killed in the past week alone, Israelis and Palestinians. And the Israeli economy is in dire straits. Unemployment is now in double figures for the first time in a decade.

Sharon himself visited a military checkpoint in the West Bank. And he appealed for Israelis to be patient. He said, "It is a long campaign, one that we will have to withstand." But it is not clear how patient the Israeli public are prepared to be.

Mike Hanna, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Also overseas today, police in Ireland arrested two more suspects in the Omagh bombing of 1998; 29 people were killed in the single worst attack in a 30-year feud between mostly Catholic Republicans and mostly Protestant Unionists. To date, only one person has been convicted of taking part.

For the fifth time in two decades, Irish voters weighed in today on the explosive issue of abortion. A few did, anyway. Turnout looked to be very low, maybe less than 20 percent. The question: whether abortion should be forbidden even if the mother might commit suicide otherwise. The Catholic Church says yes. Results are expected tomorrow.

The European Union is fuming today over that steep new U.S. tariff on most imported steel. Diplomats say the EU is contemplating some sort of retaliation if such a thing is allowed under World Trade Organization rules. The Bush administration moved yesterday to help protect American steelmakers from what they consider to be dumping from abroad.

The answers to today's "News Quiz" is coming up: "How old is the world's first test tube baby?" Then the risk to babies when moms conceive with the help of science: results of a new report right after the break.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Earlier we asked: "How old is the first person born with the help of test tube baby technology?" Is she 23, 29, 36, or 40? The answer: Louise Brown was born 23 years ago.

In vitro fertilization is one of the most common methods used to help couples overcome fertility problems. But two new studies show so-called test tube babies may be at increased risk for some health problems.

CNN medical correspondent Rhonda Rowland has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RHONDA ROWLAND, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The statistics are striking. Test tube babies are twice as likely to be born with a major birth defect compared to babies conceived naturally.

A second new finding: Single-birth babies born with this technology are twice as likely to be born weighing 5.5 pounds or less, even if they are born full term. The studies on what doctors call assisted reproductive technology, or ART, are published in "The New England Journal of Medicine."

DR. LAURA SCHIEVE, CDC: I think the decision on whether to undergo ART is a very personal choice and a very complex choice. And I think all of the risks and benefits need to be weighed.

ROWLAND: Still, an unanswered question: Why are test tube babies at higher risk for birth defects and low birth weight? Researchers looked at aspects of infertility and found no explanation.

SCHIEVE: And that suggests to us that there may be something about the ART procedure itself that was related to this increased risk for term low birth weight.

ROWLAND: A concern to researchers like Dr. Allen Mitchell who have seen increase in the marketing of these infertility services. In fact, use of these services increased almost 50 percent in recent years.

DR. ALLEN MITCHELL, BOSTON UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF PUBLIC HEALTH: We are concerned that couples may be exposing themselves to the risks of these procedures, these potential risks, even though they may not meet the formal definitions of infertility.

ROWLAND (on camera): In weighing the risks and benefits of these technologies, researchers say infertile couples have at least a 90 percent chance of having a normal, healthy baby.

Rhonda Rowland, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Now checking these stories on today's "Newswire": The current anthrax vaccine is safe and effective until a better one is developed: that word today in a report from the Institute of Medicine. It says there are some drawbacks to the current vaccine. Among other things, it must be given in six doses over 18 months. And that means it wouldn't necessarily provide instant protection in case of a bioterrorism attack.

A New York research foundation is out with a troubling report concerning the nation's minorities. It shows a gap between whites and African-Americans, Hispanics and other minorities in the quality of health care they receive. A key finding: Minorities are more likely to have trouble communicating with doctors and accessing health care. A University of Georgia football fan who caused a security scare last fall at the airport in Atlanta is getting hit where it hurts. A judge today sentenced Michael Lasseter to 10 days in jail and barred him from Bulldog football games next fall. Lasseter's dash past security shut down the airport for four hours. He told police he left the airport's secure area to retrieve a camera bag.

Let's go to New York and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." He is standing by, coming up right at the top of the hour -- Lou.

LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Wolf, thank you very much.

At the top of the hour: fierce fighting under way tonight in Afghanistan. CNN military analyst General David Grange will be here to take a look at what is now the most intense battle of the war against terrorism to date: Operation Anaconda. The Palestinian representative to the United States, Hasan Rahman, will join me to discuss the fighting in the Middle East and how it could be ended.

And we'll have an update for you on just how much money charities have now released to the families of victims of the September 11 attacks against the United States. We will also be telling you about what turned out to another big rally on Wall Street -- all of that and more just ahead.

Wolf Blitzer, back to you.

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou. We will be watching.

And when we come back, weighing in on the "Nightline" issue: If Ted Koppel's show goes away, would he go with it? We will speak to someone who may know the answer. And go online for our "Question of the Day": "Which show would you rather watch at 11:35 p.m. on ABC: David Letterman or Ted Koppel? You can vote: CNN.com/Wolf, my Web site. We will have the results right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

We still don't know whether "Nightline" will say night night or whether Dave will find one good reason, let alone 10, to stay put. So, if you are losing sleep over the late-night TV turf wars over relevance vs. ratings, you have lots of company, mostly among executives of ABC and CBS.

Max Robins thinks ABC has the most to lose and may in fact have already lost, regardless of the outcome. He is a senior editor of "TV Guide," one of the best writers in the business. He joins us now live from New York.

Max, why do you think ABC has already lost?

MAX ROBINS, SENIOR EDITOR, "TV GUIDE": Either way this thing shakes out, Wolf, it has tarnished their image. If they get Letterman, they have pushed off a franchise show. They have treated a franchise player, Ted Koppel, in a shabby way. If they don't, it is almost like he is damaged goods, even if they keep the show on.

BLITZER: But do these executives really care? If they get Letterman and he does really great at 11:35 on ABC, and advertisers love it, younger demographics love it, won't that be a win for ABC, even if Ted Koppel and "Nightline" go away?

ROBINS: There is some question, Wolf, how much money they would actually have to pay David Letterman, and how well they could promote the show, and if they would really make that much more money.

Now, from what I understand, "Nightline" is making about $13 million a year now. What is losing is the show that comes after it, "Politically Incorrect." Maybe they should be putting on their thinking caps at ABC, and, instead of jettisoning one of the best newscasts on television, looking for a better companion show to follow it at 12:00.

BLITZER: There was a story in "USA Today" the other day which said that the average Letterman viewer was 46.7 years old. The average "Nightline" viewer was 50 years old. To me, that doesn't sound like a big-deal difference to these big corporate executives. Is it?

ROBINS: It shouldn't be, Wolf, but there is kind of this conventional wisdom on Madison Avenue. And I guess they can point to some research that says that that is a much more valuable -- well, that Letterman delivers a much more valuable demographic. And they will pay a premium over what you would pay for "Nightline."

But you have to wonder. I think, for the "Nightline" viewer, it might skew a little older, but my guess is, is that it is a blue-chip audience, an audience that is engaged, and is probably paying attention not only to the show, but what is sold on the show, if you will.

BLITZER: What happens -- if Letterman comes to ABC, what happens to Ted Koppel and that "Nightline" franchise?

ROBINS: Well, that is a very good question, Wolf. From what I understand, Walter Isaacson, the president of CNN, said he would be happy to talk to Ted Koppel. So maybe he will be working with you pretty soon.

BLITZER: Well, we would be thrilled if he would.

ROBINS: He might also find a home on PBS as well.

Look, Koppel is a terrific newsman. He has had a great run at ABC. And I think, if he wants it, there is life for him after ABC, if that should come to pass.

BLITZER: You may have seen "The View" with Barbara Walters the other day, when she said this: "To be treated as dispensable and irrelevant is thoughtless and hurtful." You read Ted Koppel's op-ed piece in "The New York Times." He really resents this notion, one anonymous ABC executive, Disney executive saying "Nightline" is irrelevant.

ROBINS: Yes. And I think -- I don't mind them resenting that. I think their anger is well placed.

Both Barbara Walters and Ted Koppel have made literally hundreds of millions of dollars for ABC and the Walt Disney Company. These are brand names. There is a finite number of them in the business, Wolf. And you treat them with some dignity. Even if you are going to make some changes, you involve them in the process and you don't have this kind of public relations fiasco on your hands.

BLITZER: And, in 10 seconds, Max, if Ted Koppel is not safe at ABC, is there anyone in the broadcast journalism world who is safe?

ROBINS: Absolutely not. It's a mercenary business, Wolf. And that's the sad truth.

BLITZER: OK, Max Robins of "TV Guide," as I said, one of the best in the business, thanks for joining us.

ROBINS: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: And now the results of our "Web Question": "Which show would you rather watch at 11:35 Eastern on ABC?" Is it David Letterman or Ted Koppel?" Look at the results so far: 68 percent of you say Ted Koppel. As always, this poll is not scientific, but it is a chance for to you weigh in.

Time now to hear from you on the future, for example, of "Nightline."

Elaine writes this: "'Nightline' with Ted Koppel has been one of the very few intelligent programs on TV for many years. Our nation is becoming more dumbed down for the next generation every day."

But look at this. Roger disagrees: "Wolf, not all viewers are as enthralled by Koppel as you are. You described him as a journalist's journalist. I would describe him as an egomaniac's egomaniac. Ted, you bore us to death."

And on the subject of armed pilots, which we covered yesterday, Brian writes: "The air marshal program will never be big enough to cover all U.S. flights. Most pilots have weapons experience from the military. And they wouldn't need to be trained to be deadly marksmen at 100 yards, but at 10 feet or less" -- very passionate views on that subject.

I will be back in one hour with much more coverage from the CNN "War Room." Among my guests: two key members of the Senate Intelligence Committee: James Inhofe and John Edwards.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer at the CNN Center here in Atlanta. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.

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