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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Interview with John Edwards and James Inhofe

Aired March 06, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: Taking the fight to the enemy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The forces we face represent very hardened elements of al Qaeda and Taliban, true dead- enders.

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BLITZER: After a rough start, Operation Anaconda gains ground. But the fight is still fierce. We'll bring to you the battlefield.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED U.S. SOLDIER: I think once our 50-cals started rocking on them, they got their heads down, and then close air support came in and scared them off. They didn't have a chance after that.

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BLITZER: We'll go live to the Pentagon and to Afghanistan, where CNN's Martin Savidge is back from the frontlines. And I'll speak live with Senators James Inhofe and John Edwards of the intelligence committee as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from the CNN Center in Atlanta.

It's day five of fighting in eastern Afghanistan. U.S. troops are on the offensive, but they continue to meet fierce resistance from al Qaeda and Taliban fighters, most of whom are non-Afghans. Still, there are indications the tide is turning against these Arab, Chechen and Pakistani fighters.

We begin with remarkable pictures from the frontlines and a firsthand account of Operation Anaconda. CNN's Martin Savidge accompanied U.S. forces into the combat zone. He's back in Kabul now and he joins us live. And also joining us live from Oak Ridge, Illinois, is CNN military analyst, retired Brigadier General David Grange, a former Ranger, green beret and infantry combat division commander.

Let me begin with you, Marty. Tell us what you saw and heard during this remarkable outage that you made to the frontlines?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, good evening to you, Wolf. The way this all began is we were embedded media. What that means is that essentially we were part of the fighting force. We were not combatants ourself, but we faced the same danger and we faced the same circumstances. When things got hot, there was no way to get out. You were there with the troops until the end regardless of the turnout.

Essentially, we were supposed to go in on Saturday. That was concerned to be D-day. We were in the second lift of what was an air brigade assault. Essentially, there had to be two lifts with the helicopters because there were so many troops, they didn't have enough helicopters to move them all at once.

We made two tries initially, one on Saturday, then on Sunday, to go in. Both times we were turned away at the last minute because the landing zone was considered to be too hot, coming under AK-47 fire, machine gun fire and mortar fire. It wasn't until early Monday morning in the pitch darkness that we actually made it down on the ground into the lower Shah-e-Kot valley. And from there, the objective was basically search and destroy.

As daylight started to come up, as we moved with the troops, we find ourselves in an extremely narrow valley. And this was a very apprehensive operation because you have the main body of the element snaking its way very carefully down this narrow valley floor while you have what they call an overwatch, that is another force of soldiers on the high ground above you trying to watch your back as you move forward. We're walking very carefully, quietly, moving up on these caves, the caves you heard so much about. When they find them, they take the shoulder rocket-fired missiles. They launch them against these targets, destroying hopefully the cave, perhaps killing anyone that may be inside, but knocking those caves out of commission. Many have been used as mortar positions.

Then from there, once that objective was reached, we began pushing south. The idea of speed, momentum, keep the Taliban, keep the al Qaeda forces on the run. We were just outside of a village that was thought to be a headquarters for Taliban and al Qaeda when suddenly, U.S. forces, having just taken the ridge there, came under heavy assault from those forces in the village. It began with AK-47, moved up to heavy machine gun, 50-caliber fire. Then the mortars started coming down. Now the al Qaeda forces have been fighting in that valley for 10 years or more. Every part of that valley area there, they have pinpointed with mortars. They came down with a great deal of precision.

The U.S. forces did not back off. Their rule is to engage and stay engaged. They fired back with their own heavy weapons, also launching their own mortars. But, of course, the benefit they have is what they called CAS, close air support. They immediately call in for fighter support. You have the fighters, the bombers, the B-52s. They lay down a carpet of heavy bombing, and that quickly brought the firefight to an end. And they continue to pound that area from the air for the remaining two days that we were there. Now, even though that it might hold down the heads of the Taliban and al Qaeda, they still would after the planes disappear come back and begin mortaring again. It's a very difficult objective and mission, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. Marty, stand by. I want to bring in General Grange. General, you have looked at these dramatic pictures shot by Marty and his photographer. What do you make of this battle, General Grange?

RETIRED GENERAL DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, you know, there's a lot of comments that our forces are fighting a fierce and determined enemy. That's probably because the operation is being very successful. They have it sealed off completely. There's no escape routes, obviously, or they wouldn't be fighting like they are, even though they are going to fight to the death anyway. They'd be moving around a lot more. So I think that it's successful in that regard.

The enemy's major weapons, though, that are to be feared, that the most dangerous, is the small-arms weapons and mortars, like Marty said. These mortars, they fire them, they move out, they fire them and move out and are hard to counter, to take out, without your own mortars, your own artillery. So very difficult. And then the RPGs and sniper fire that would be against our people as well is extremely dangerous.

BLITZER: General Grange, Marty Savidge, thanks to both of you for giving us those insight. Those pictures obviously very dramatic. And this important note, Marty will be back in about 15 minutes with his special report, LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN. That's at the top of the hour, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.

And did U.S. military planners underestimate their foes? Let's go live to CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre. He's over at the Pentagon -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, for days now, the Pentagon has been describing some of the initial difficulty the U.S. forces have had as part of the regular ebb and flow on the battlefield. But now that we're getting those firsthand accounts via Marty Savidge and his cameraman, we're hearing a slightly different story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The fierce resistance encountered by U.S. troops in the opening phase of Operation Anaconda was no surprise, the Pentagon has repeatedly said. But soldiers on the frontlines have a slightly different perspective.

UNIDENTIFIED U.S. SOLDIER: I didn't really expect them to sit there and try to duke it out with us, and a lot of small arms fire followed by RPGs being shot, and to include, I saw at least one SA-7 shot. And it just -- I was just surprised at the intensity of how much stuff was on the valley floor. MCINTYRE: U.S. troops have been told, sources say, that faced with overwhelming force, the al Qaeda fighters would likely flee, not fight, as they did in Tora Bora, and then U.S. forces would have them trapped.

It didn't happen that way. The al Qaeda dug in, and after five U.S. Apache helicopters were disabled by heavy fire, U.S. commanders called for more to be sent. Sources say close to a dozen more Apache gunships are being shipped to Afghanistan from Fort Campbell, Kentucky, while Marine Cobra attack helicopters have been moved from ships to Kandahar as a precaution. But sources say neither the Apaches nor the Cobras are likely to be rushed into battle.

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, COMMANDER, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: What we find is this is a very, very dangerous environment for attack helicopters to operate in.

MCINTYRE: With assault helicopters out of the mix, the job of close air support has fallen to heavily armored A-10 attack planes as well as AC-130 gunships armed with 105-millimeter cannons.

Over the last day or so, the U.S. has sent in some 200 to 300 additional troops, which the Pentagon insists are not reinforcements.

FRANKS: Once again, that has not been in response to surprise. It has been in accordance with our plan to reposition our forces inside the objective area as necessary over time in order to completely clear it.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says no matter how good the al Qaeda fighters are, they're outgunned and outmanned by superior U.S. forces. And victory is a matter of days, not weeks, away.

RUMSFELD: I believe that the outcome is reasonably assured, that the people who have been in the battle will either be -- surrender or be killed in the days ahead.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (on camera): And the Pentagon still doesn't know for sure how a Navy SEAL was killed on Sunday. Videotape from a spy plane would seem to suggest that he was executed by al Qaeda forces after falling from his helicopter. But officials who reviewed the tape say it is also possible he may have died of wounds he received before the fall -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much for that report.

U.S. commanders say the enemy is "taking a beating." But will Taliban and al Qaeda die-hards regroup? What's the next battle? Joining me now from our Washington bureau, Senator John Edwards of the intelligence committee; and his colleague from that panel, Senator James Inhofe, who also serves on the armed services committee.

Remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to us. Go to my Web site, cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily column.

Senator Inhofe, let me begin with you. I know both of you are well briefed on all of these matters. Is the tide of this battle in eastern Afghanistan under way right now, is the tide shifting? Is it almost over with?

SEN. JAMES INHOFE (R-OK), INTELLIGENCE CMTE: I think it is. I think one of the good news that we're facing right now is that they're fighting back. They are holed up. We're having them outnumbered right now about three to one. But they're fighting back. My concern has been that once this starts, if they would flee, then we'd have to be facing them someplace else. So, I think if they continue to do that, we'll be able to knock them out and kill them.

BLITZER: Senator Edwards, do you want to venture any sort of prediction how much longer this battle might go on?

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), INTELLIGENCE CMTE: I think, Wolf, we knew when we started this battle that there was no way to predict exactly how long it would take. Some of the resistance we've encountered has been fierce. But I think that we're superior both in manpower and technology. And I think the great likelihood is it will be over in a matter of days.

BLITZER: Senator Inhofe, did the U.S. military underestimate the level of the resistance, these Chechen, Arab, Pakistani, these non- Afghan fighters dug into those caves high up in the snowy mountains of eastern Afghanistan? Was there a miscalculation someplace along the road?

INHOFE: No, I think Secretary Rumsfeld has been very consistent in saying that they are going to be tough when we get up there. You're talking about 8,000, 10,000, 11,000 feet. And we have an equipment problem up there. We're using our chinooks that are 30 years old. You know, if we had been able to keep up our modernization program, we might have had B-22s which would have made it a lot easier at that time, but we didn't.

I'm not surprised, I don't think the secretary of defense is surprised. And I agree with John, I think we are going to be able to get them out of there and get it over with, but we can't say exactly when.

BLITZER: Some of these special operations forces, Senator Edwards, are from North Carolina, from Ft. Bragg, elsewhere. Obviously you are quite proud of them. But were they sent into this mission adequately prepared for the level of resistance?

EDWARDS: Well, first of all, our special forces, particularly those from North Carolina, always are always completely prepared for whatever they encounter. So I think they knew there was a real likelihood they would encounter some fierce resistance.

I think it was impossible for them to know, just as it was impossible for us to know, exactly what the tactics of our enemy would be, so I think that on the whole, they knew what they were doing. They weren't surprised by it. I do think that it's not a shocking thing that these al-Qaeda, particularly these al-Qaeda have, in fact, regrouped, gotten themselves into this place where they feel most secure and they are sort of drawing the line and battling as hard as they can in that play. I don't think that comes as a great surprise to any of us.

BLITZER: Senator Inhofe, I want you to listen precisely to what Donald Rumsfeld said about the Navy S.E.A.L. who fell off or somehow was killed on that helicopter, Navy S.E.A.L. Neil Roberts. Listen to what the secretary of defense, who got a little agitated in response to a reporter's question, listen to what he said.

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DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I have not seen the tape. I do not know if that's on the tape. And people who have seen the tape have commented on the subject. Whether or not he was dead or alive when whatever took place did take place. It seems to me that one ought to be willing to allow some time to pass over something like this so that the people who are looking at these things can come to some conclusions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We want to show our viewers of a picture of Neil Roberts, the Navy S.E.A.L. Have you been briefed on that incident? He's referring to a tape that a Predator Unmanned Aircraft had showing this Navy S.E.A.L. fall off the helicopter and either be dragged away alive and then executed by these Taliban/al-Qaeda fighters or perhaps killed earlier.

INHOFE: Well, of course, Wolf, there are some things we can't talk about, but yes, a Predator does apparently, there is film there. And also, you have to keep in mind we got down and pulled the body out. And so we have information from the body.

However, I do believe that it's not fair for the media to be pushing on the secretary of defense, you know. We have family to consider and other people to notify. And we also -- there could be some very good security reasons why we wouldn't want to talk specifically on how this happened. But I think we know pretty much because we have the body and we also have the Predator tapes.

BLITZER: Senator Edwards, we have an e-mail from a viewer, Bill from Rockford, Illinois, referring to these reports that the Taliban/al-Qaeda may be regrouping inside Pakistan along the border. The question in this: What are the Pakistanis doing in response to the presumed buildup of al-Qaeda and Taliban forces on their side of the border?

INHOFE: Well, General Musharraf has been very supportive of everything we've done since September 11. In fact, he's shown great strength and leadership in very, very difficult circumstances in reversing their position on the way they dealt with the Taliban in the past. I think that they're working very hard, working with us, working with all of our folks, including our intelligence operatives. And I think they're being as supportive as they possibly can be. They're very much with us on this. The general understands, Wolf, that his stability and the stability of his nation, politically and in other ways, is very much dependent on what happens in Afghanistan and what happens in the rest of the region. So he understands it's important for him to work with us on the al-Qaeda that may have crossed the border.

If I can add, he also understands how critically important it is that we not allow all these great victories we've been able -- we're in the process of a real battle right now, an important battle -- but we've had great victories in Afghanistan. We went in with a clear purpose, we knew what we were doing. We've been very successful in large part because of our military operations there.

But there's a real danger of us losing some of these victories. The problem is that there are lot -- a large part of Afghanistan is moving towards chaos. It is not under the control of the interim government, the central government. And we've restricted the peacekeeping force there, about 4,500 or so, the international peacekeeping force, to the region immediately adjacent to Kabul.

It is impossible for us to maintain stability in the rest of the country with the force restricted to that area and it being restricted to that size. And there is an enormous stage where we have got to be proactive in working with our allies and spreading out this peacekeeping force so that both for Afghanistan, for Pakistan for the entire region we stabilize Afghanistan.

BLITZER: Senators, stand by. I want to pick up that thought. We'll take a quick break. We'll take a look when we come back, where this next battle, the next battle in Afghanistan may be taking place. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HENRY SCHMITZ, U.S. ARMY: Right now, it's all about the mission. I mean, there's little times like now when we're down and a little down time that I think about home, read a letter.

QUESTION: Do you write?

SCHMITZ: Yes. Actually, I've got three -- I was going to write a letter before we went out, but instead I got three tapes that are in my pocket just in case, they'll be sent home.

QUESTION: Just in case what?

SCHMITZ: I don't come back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Welcome back to the CNN war room. We're continuing our conversation with Senators John Edwards and James Inhofe.

Senator Inhofe, you remember in October, November and December, when the major battle were going on, the U.S. engaged largely in air power. But the Northern Alliance, the anti-Taliban forces did the fighting on the ground. That seems to be changing, right now, which raises this question from a viewer, Kevin, in California who says: "Does the United States military have the ability to fight a guerrilla war, on the ground in Afghanistan?"

INHOFE: Well, I think the answer is clearly yes, they have the ability to do that. I mean, we've got the special forces, we have the 101st, we have the 10th mountain division. And that's exactly what they're trained to do. Let's keep in mind that even though the Northern Alliance did most of the work on the ground, we still had our troops actually riding on horseback with automatic weapons and they're perfectly capable of doing that. Let me just mention -- re-emphasize something that John said, Musharraf has shown an unbelievable amount of courage in the way he's treated things in Pakistan. And I think that makes a huge difference.

Now, as far as they're concerned they have tried -- you know, we saw what the Northern Alliance did on the ground. Many of these 800 troops that we're fighting right now, the other side, they're up there because they escaped. And so I think that maybe we're taking the precautions now to make sure they don't escape, that they stay up there and fight until they're all killed as opposed to having to meet them someplace else.

BLITZER: Senator Edwards, this is obviously not going to be the last battle of this war. What should the American public expect as far as U.S. military personnel on the ground in Afghanistan in the coming weeks and months?

EDWARDS: Well, we'll finish the job -- first of all, we'll finish the job that we're engaged in right now. We'll win these battles that we're involved in right now. Hopefully, that will be fairly quick and short-term. Second, as I mentioned earlier, it is critically important that we have our allies engaged in this international peacekeeping force, and that be expanded and that we stabilize Afghanistan. The only way we'll keep Afghanistan from going right back to the place it was before any of this began, under the Taliban's control.

We don't want it to become another breeding ground for other Osama bin Ladens. We don't want Afghanistan to go back to the place it was under the control of the Taliban. In order to do that, there is going to have to be a bigger, broader, peacekeeping -- international peacekeeping force. That's of critical importance. I do believe that our role in that peacekeeping force should be relatively small, because we fought these battles, we fought these wars, have people on the ground including special forces from my state of North Carolina on the ground risking their lives right now. And I think it is a perfectly reasonable thing for us to require, is that our allies from around the world man this peacekeeping force. But I think with respect to Afghanistan, that's probably the way it's headed. BLITZER: Senator Edwards, Senator Inhofe, thanks to both of you for joining us, as usual. Appreciate it very much.

INHOFE: Thanks Wolf.

BLITZER: And coming up, a deadly accident for international peacekeepers in Kabul. We'll be back in just a moment with that, and other top stories. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Checking our "News Alert," five international peacekeepers were killed and seven were injured today in an accident in Kabul. Three of those killed were from Denmark, the other two from Germany. German officials say the peacekeepers were killed when an air-to-ground missile they were defusing exploded.

As both sides in the Middle East keep up their attacks, President Bush is trying to help break the cycle of violence in the region. While supporting Israel's right to defend itself, the president is also pressuring the prime minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon to show restraint. The latest violence led to 12 more deaths today.

BLITZER: That's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again tomorrow twice at both 4:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I am Wolf Blitzer at the CNN Center in Atlanta.

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