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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Defense Secretary Discusses Operation Anaconda

Aired March 08, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: A special interview with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There are still any number of al Qaeda and probably Taliban located in those caves and tunnels.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Slowed by bad weather, Operation Anaconda is far from over. We'll go live to Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And today, we've got the mom and dad of a brave soldier who lost his life, and a brother. God bless you.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: President Bush shares the heartache.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington. We'll get to my interview with the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld shortly.

But first, Operation Anaconda. Nearly six months after the U.S. was attacked by terrorists, U.S. forces continue to wage their war against al Qaeda and Taliban fighters in eastern Afghanistan. It's impossible to predict when this battle will end.

Now bad weather, which had hampered Operation Anaconda, has begun to ease and the U.S.-led offensive is getting some extra help. CNN's Nic Robertson is near the frontlines in Gardez and he joins us now live -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it's already about 5:00 in the morning here in Afghanistan and we've been able to hear through the night planes, coalition aircraft, circling overhead. Late in the day yesterday, Friday, we were hearing detonations, some of them close enough and large enough for this city of Gardez, some 20 miles from the frontlines, to shake the windows and we could feel it in the ground.

We cannot and have not been able to see exactly where those bombs have been falling in the mountains, where the fighting is going on. But Afghan commanders here tell us that they are still fighting. They tell us that they have taken control of some mountain peaks from the Taliban. They tell us that they've collapsed two cave systems belonging to al Qaeda and Taliban forces. One commander also told us that his men had captured 13 injured Taliban fighters and brought them down off the mountainsides. They tell us that morale is high and that they do expect victory.

Part of that victory will, in part, now be due to reinforcements that are being brought into the region. The Afghans' defense ministry has authorized 1,000 new fighters to be brought into the region. And just after nightfall last night, commander Gul Hyder (ph) arrived on the edge of Gardez city with what he said was between 600 and 1,000 fighters. He said he had plenty of heavy equipment. He said if he needed more ammunition, more weapons, then he'd be able to bring that in with ease. In talking with some of his fighters, they still appeared as if morale was high and said they were ready to come and defeat the Taliban to free and liberate the country. The weather here has been bad in the last few days and through the hours of nightfall here, it has been snowing, Wolf.

BLITZER: Well, that raises the question, how much is this weather likely to be a factor in the outcome of this battle?

ROBERTSON: Well, the dust storms that have been the main feature of the weather in the last two days, have given way to the snow. Now, the dust storms do provide a difficult flying environment for helicopters. We have heard that some coalition resupply helicopter missions haven't been flown. But we did see yesterday a CH-53 Sea Stallion landing at a special forces base just outside of the city. So clearly, some air operations have continued.

The snowfall, however, falling high on the mountains. We are in an elevation here of 7,700 feet. The mountains, where the frontlines are, rise up to 11,000 feet from here. So if it's snowing at this altitude here, it will likely be snowing up on those peaks. And for troops moving through that terrain on the ground, it will likely make not only movement difficult, but visibility, to see perhaps where enemy fire is coming from also difficult. So it's likely while the snowstorm continues, that fighting on the mountains will be difficult during that period, Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic Robertson on the scene in Afghanistan, thanks so much for joining us.

Earlier today, I sat down at the Pentagon with the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld. I asked him about the battle in the mountains of eastern Afghanistan, the hunt for Osama bin Laden and the wider war against terrorism.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for joining us. And I want to get right to the issue of the day, Operation Anaconda, in eastern Afghanistan. Is it all but over?

RUMSFELD: No. These things are not predictable really. There are still any number of al Qaeda and probably Taliban located in those caves and tunnels and in very well-entrenched positions, dug in. They've got a lot of ammunition.

The weather is terrible today, and so the level -- the intensity of the battle has calmed down. To the extent people try to get in or out of that area where they are contained, we are dealing with them. And we are still continuing to bomb and there is some ground fire coming out from the al Qaeda, but it's relatively modest at the moment.

BLITZER: The weather is a significant factor because you can't really go in and provide the kind of close air support for those U.S. ground forces in bad weather.

RUMSFELD: That's exactly right. We can still drop so-called GPS weapons that -- smart weapons, precision weapons. But in terms of actually flushing people out and then using things like the AC-130 with 105 Howitzers and 40-millimeters, you can't do that.

BLITZER: Give our viewers a sense of the scope of this battle. How many al Qaeda and related fighters are there, do you believe? And how many U.S. and coalition fighters are fighting them?

RUMSFELD: Well, it's not clear to me. I want to tell the world how many people we have doing it, but we do have a large number of Americans, you know, many hundreds, and we do have a good number of Afghans and we have a number of four or five other countries engaged in this. And they are well arranged in -- around the entire area. They spent weeks beforehand gathering intelligence and observing.

It's very difficult to know exactly how many al Qaeda or Taliban are in there because of the fact that they do have tunnels and caves, and that makes it very difficult to estimate it.

BLITZER: And you say they are getting reinforcements? They are getting supplies, obviously, but are other fighters coming into the area?

RUMSFELD: I don't believe they're getting reinforcements or supplies. They do have a very large cache of supplies and weapons and ammunition inside those caves and tunnels. So they're not without ammunition or food or water. They are well supplied and well disciplined. These are very well-trained fighters. These are hard dead-enders. These are hardline types.

BLITZER: Now, when you say dead-enders, tell our viewers what you mean by that?

RUMSFELD: We'd be happy to have them surrender, but we haven't seen anyone coming in and surrendering. We've seen them try to sneak out and we are stopping them. We've seen some people trying to sneak in, small numbers, ones, twos, threes, nothing like 10s or 20s or 30s. These are very small numbers.

And, of course, it's very rough terrain, extremely cold. It's up between 8,000 and 11,000 feet where most of these battles are taking place. Just trying breathe up there is, for people who aren't acclimated to that altitude, is not easy.

BLITZER: Well, you say they are dead-enders. That's means they are ready to fight to the death.

RUMSFELD: Well, we won't know that until they're dead, but thus far we've not seen them surrender.

BLITZER: Does that mean that the U.S. rules of engagement in dealing with these so-called dead-enders has to change? Because if someone wants to surrender, you don't know if that person is wired with a bomb, ready to commit suicide and kill a lot of U.S. troops in the process.

RUMSFELD: Well, we've had that happen, as you know, although they've not killed large numbers of U.S. troops in the process, but we have had people come out with grenades and various types of explosives taped to their bodies, not in this operation, but previously. And our folks are trained to deal with that.

If people want to surrender, we have ways of letting them surrender without putting our people at risk that they are going to be blown up.

BLITZER: There's some speculation from local Afghan commanders that Osama bin Laden and his No. 2, Ayman Al-Zawahiri may be part of these fighters.

RUMSFELD: You can find some speculation from Afghans, Americans, coalition partners, neighboring countries about where those folks are on any given day. And my attitude is I'm going to not chase those speculations.

BLITZER: You still don't have a clue where Osama bin Laden is?

RUMSFELD: I didn't say that.

BLITZER: You do have a clue?

RUMSFELD: No. I didn't say that either. I'm not going to talk about whether we have good intelligence or bad intelligence on that subject. We are looking for him. We are ultimately going to find him. Wherever he is, he is not happy. He is not able to effectively run his safe haven in Afghanistan. And our goal is to take the Taliban government out and to make sure that Afghanistan was not a sanctuary for terrorists and for the training for terrorists. And it is not today. And so, at least that much of our initial goal has been accomplished very successfully.

BLITZER: Were you surprised by the degree of resistance that these al Qaeda fighters had? In other words, was there an underestimation of the battle?

RUMSFELD: No. I mean, if you think the -- these are the people who took plastic knives and box cutters and flew airplanes filled with themselves as well as American citizens, into the World Trade Center and this building you're sitting in. Why would one be surprised that they are determined, well trained, clever, capable of using modern technology that they never could have developed, but that is made available to the world today to kill people? No, I'm not surprised that they are determined and well trained. We've read their terrorist training manuals.

BLITZER: And in part, they're dead-enders. They're ready to fight to the death because they are not Afghans. They're Arabs. They're Chechens. They're Pakistanis. They are others presumably with no place else left to go.

RUMSFELD: Oh, they've got places they could go and they have had plenty of opportunity to leave. What it tells you is that they didn't leave. They stayed there and are trying take back that country and to try to throw out the interim government and to try to, again, turn it into a terrorist training camp and a sanctuary.

We are trying to see that Afghanistan is not a haven and sanctuary, but we are also working with other countries to see that they aren't because these terrorists do not have armies, navies and air forces. They don't have countries. They have to find some country that will foster and encourage and finance and harbor and provide sanctuary for them. And we can't let that happen or else we'll find that they're not only doing what they've done, but they will be -- there's an enormous appetite.

We have plenty of evidence that they want chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. We know that. And if we are relaxed and say, oh, well, things are OK now, nothing's happened. We haven't had a terrorist attack for the last six months. Therefore, we don't have to worry about it. That's nonsense. If those folks get a hold of weapons of mass destruction, we're going to be talking not about thousands of people, but tens of thousands of people.

BLITZER: How realistic is that prospect, that they could get hold of those kinds of weapons of mass destruction?

RUMSFELD: Well, we know they're intelligent. We know they're well financed. We know there are thousands of them. We know that they've got activities in 40, 50 or 60 countries. And we know that there are a number of nations that are on the terrorist list that also have weapons of mass destruction and have weaponized chemical and biological weapons and are working very aggressively toward nuclear weapons now.

It does not take a leap of imagination to understand that there, with the desire they've demonstrated, and we have all kinds of intelligence evidence to that effect, that the al Qaeda terrorists want weapons of mass destruction, and the people they've dealt with over the years having those kinds of weapons, it doesn't take a genius to recognize that that is a very serious threat. BLITZER: Is there a link between these al Qaeda terrorists, who still may be at large, and the government of President Saddam Hussein in Baghdad?

RUMSFELD: I'm not going to get into intelligence information about where those links are. We know the countries that are on the terrorist list and that's one of them.

BLITZER: Vice President Cheney is heading to the region, to the Middle East, as you know in the coming days. A lot of speculation that he wants to talk about Iraq. But can the U.S. effectively launch a strike, a regime change, if you will, of Saddam Hussein's government, as long as the Israeli/Palestinian conflict seems to be worsening, deteriorating? Don't you, in other words, have to calm that down before you try to take on Iraq?

RUMSFELD: My whole adult lifetime, there's been problems between Israel and the Arabs and the Palestinians in that region. It is something that has gone on decade after decade after decade. In the intervening period, we've had a number of wars. And I don't know that that is the determinant.

BLITZER: Because, you will need, if you go after Iraq, moderate Arab support from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, other countries that border Iraq?

RUMSFELD: I'm not going to get into the subject of Iraq and what the president might or might not decide. He gave a speech not too long ago indicating his concern about Iraq and his concern about North Korea and his concern about Iran. He's given a number of indications of his concern about terrorists and states that harbor and provide sanctuary to terrorists. But it's not for me to begin speculating along that line.

BLITZER: You look back on these past six months, Monday will be six months since the September 11 attacks. What's been your biggest frustration?

RUMSFELD: Well, I don't know that I've had a frustration, to be perfectly honest. I've been awfully proud of the men and women in uniform. Your heart breaks when they die. You have to get up every morning and know that there's no road map as to exactly how this ought to be done because we've never faced this kind of a problem.

We've generally been able to go against countries that have armies, navies and air forces and we know how to do that. That's what this department is organized, trained and equipped to do, as you well know, having worked here. So, what we are dealing with now is something that requires bringing to bear all of the elements of national power, our economic power, our ability to close off bank accounts, our ability to get cooperation from other countries to arrest people and gather intelligence, to share intelligence, covert activities as well as overt activities. And it requires a very close linkage among the departments of our government. It requires a close linkage between us and dozens and dozens of countries around that have just done a wonderful job. And they've suffered deaths as well. So it is a very complex set of problems, and, as I say, there is no road map that you get up and say, oh, this is what you do next. Therefore, it's taken a great deal of thought and we are working hard at it.

BLITZER: I just came from the construction site where they are rebuilding that part of the Pentagon that was blown apart on September 11. They say, they tell me that the construction manager should be ready to go by September 11 of this year. Over the next six months, though, where do you believe this war on terrorism, six months from now, where will it be?

RUMSFELD: Well, we have to finish up the job in Afghanistan, and that means rooting out these pockets of al Qaeda and Taliban, wherever they are in that country, and working with the interim government to see that they are -- can create a reasonably stable, secure environment so that their people will return from refugee camps and that people -- humanitarian workers can get in there and provide the kind of food and medical assistance that's needed.

One example, the Jordanians have provided a hospital in Mazar where they've treated some 12,000 patients, men, women and children already. I mean, there's just some wonderful things happening in that country. Beyond that, we have to see that those folks and other global terrorists don't have safe haven in other countries. And, therefore, we have to continue the law enforcement effort. We have to continue the freezing of bank accounts, and we have to go after these global terrorists wherever they are and countries that harbor them. We would be simply driving them out of Afghanistan so that they can go to country X and begin to do exactly the same thing, to train and to send terrorists around to kill innocent men, women and children in this building and in New York City, or goodness knows where next, would be a mindless thing to do. That just moves the problem from here to there.

BLITZER: Mr. Secretary, we have to leave it right there. Thanks so much for joining us.

RUMSFELD: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And coming up, the commander-in-chief shares an emotional moment with families of fallen Americans.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Visiting Florida, today, President Bush spoke about the ferocity of the fighting in Afghanistan and introducing the relatives of two army rangers, Specialist Mark Anderson and Sergeant Bradley Crose, both killed during Operation Anaconda. He was briefly overcome with emotion when he spoke about the price being paid by those defending their country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We'll be relentless and determined to do what is right. And we'll take a loss of life, and I'm sad for loss of life. And today we've got the mom and dad of a brave soldier who lost his life and a brother. God bless you.

(APPLAUSE)

Thank you all for coming. Thank you. I know your heart aches, and we ache for you. But your son and your brother died for a noble and just cause.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Moving images of that same event when the president embraced the families of those two fallen American soldiers.

And, remember, I'd like to hear from you. Please go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. Click on the designation for comments to me. I'll read them and my producers will read them as well.

And up ahead: Israeli forces hammer away inside Gaza and the West Bank. When we return, a look at the Middle East crisis and our other top stories. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Checking our top stories in this hour's "News Alert": Israeli air and ground forces intensified their attacks today in Gaza and the West Bank, killing at least 48 Palestinians. Two other Palestinians died caring out terror actions. Israel's attacks came the day after a Palestinian gunman opened fire, killing five teenage Israeli students.

K-Mart, the company that built its reputation by cutting prices, is now cutting its work force. The discount retailer is eliminating 22,000 jobs from the payroll, and closing 284 stores. K-Mart filed for bankruptcy protection in January.

After nearly eight years in the United States Senate, Tennessee's Fred Thompson says he's had enough. The 59-year-old Republican announced today he will not seek re-election this year, saying -- quote -- "I do not have the heart for another six-year term."

BLITZER: And that's all the time we have tonight. Please join me again Sunday on "LATE EDITION." Among my guests, Senators Joe Lieberman and John Warner and Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers. That's Sunday on "LATE EDITION" at noon Eastern.

And please join me again Monday, twice at both 5:00 and 7:00 p.m. Eastern. We'll be live from the Pentagon on the six-month mark after the September 11 attacks. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.

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