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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Is Iraq Next in the War Against Terrorism?

Aired March 13, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: After success on the battlefield in Afghanistan, is this the next target in the war against terrorism?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He is a problem. And we're going to deal with him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We'll visit Baghdad, where the Iraqi leader's prime- time ratings are always good.

The U.S. goes door to door in the neighborhood, seeking support for action against Iraq. How big a threat is Saddam Hussein? Is it time to target Iraq? I'll ask the former chief of Iraq's nuclear weapons program, Khidhir Hamza, and former Pentagon official Lawrence Korb as we go into the WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting tonight from Washington.

President Bush is talking tough about Iraq. At a White House news conference today, he insisted all military options against Iraq were on the table. At the same time, he sought to reassure some nervous U.S. allies, insisting he would first continue consultations with them. And while President Bush sounds the warnings at home, those consultations are being handled by the vice president, Dick Cheney, on the road in the Middle East. Our White House correspondent Kelly Wallace has been tracking all of these developments. She joins us now live from the White House -- Kelly.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, as you said, the president really trying to do two things, one, send a message to calm some anxious Arab allies, the president saying he and the vice president definitely going to consult and talk with them. But the president also seeming to send a message to Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein. As you said, the president saying all options remain on the table, indicating this administration could even pursue military action, even if the United States is forced to act alone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BUSH: This is a nation run by a man who is willing to kill his own people by using chemical weapons, a man who won't let inspectors into the country, a man who obviously has something to hide. And he is a problem. And we're going to deal with him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: And the vice president in Egypt on this day, meeting with President Hosni Mubarak. Mr. Mubarak saying the United States, the world community should really use every diplomatic initiative possible to resolve this crisis. The Egyptian leader also saying he believes that Saddam Hussein will ultimately allow weapons inspectors back inside his country.

But, Wolf, as you know, U.S. officials have said that those inspectors should have unlimited access inside Iraq, that they should be able to go anywhere they want anytime. Most analysts believe that the Iraqi leader is not likely to agree to that, setting the stage for likely to be an inspections crisis in the spring -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And Kelly, as you know, at the news conference today, the first presidential news conference, full scale news conference in some five months, the president was asked about that Navy pilot, Michael Spiker, whose plane went down over Iraq in the early days of the Gulf War 11 years ago. Tell our viewers what the president said about the fate of Michael Spiker.

WALLACE: Interesting, Wolf. I believe definitely the first time President Bush asked about this. He told reporters that Lieutenant Commander Spiker's designation is listed as, quote, "missing in action." But then, asked if he believed that the lieutenant commander could still be alive, the president saying he did not think that was out of the question, considering he is talking about Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: Doesn't change my opinion and -- about him. As a matter of fact, it reinforces the fact that anybody would be so cold and heartless as to hold an American flyer for all this period of time without notification to his family just -- just wouldn't put it past him, given the fact that he gassed his own people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALLACE: Now, Wolf, U.S. officials last asked Iraq about Lieutenant Commander Spiker last week. They got an answer that they were not satisfied with. That being said, though, senior military advisers telling our colleagues at the Pentagon they don't believe Spiker is still alive. They believe he might have survived the crash, but they really don't think he's still alive. They think if he happened to still be alive, that Saddam Hussein would likely be parading him around, really to rub it in the nose of President Bush and other U.S. officials -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Kelly Wallace at the White House, thank you very much for that report.

And President Bush clearly has Saddam Hussein's regime on his mind. Should the United States now target Iraq? In a minute, we'll take a look at an unusual public relations campaign being conducted by Baghdad. But first, joining me here in Washington, Khidhir Hamza. He trained in this country, he became the first -- the head of Iraq's nuclear weapons program, later escaped and defected to the United States. He's written a book entitled "Saddam's Bombmaker."

And from New York, Lawrence Korb. He's a former assistant secretary of defense, he's now vice president of the Council on Foreign Relations in New York. Remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to us. Go to my Web page, CNN.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily online column also.

And Mr. Hamza, thanks, first of all, for joining us. You were in Baghdad in 1991, still the top nuclear scientist in Iraq at that time, when this Commander Spiker's plane went down then. Do you have any inside information at all about his fate? Because, as you know, originally the Pentagon said he was killed in action; later they say he's missing in action.

KHIDHIR HAMZA, FORMER CHIEF OF IRAQI NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM: No, actually, we haven't heard. You know, the security organization handled this, the SSO, Saddam's official security organization, and I haven't heard really any definite things about him.

BLITZER: All right. So let's move on and talk about information that you do know something about, Iraq's nuclear program. You came to the United States in '95, you defected in '94. Over these past, what, eight years, how much of a nuclear capability, if any, do you believe Saddam Hussein has?

HAMZA: I think the only reason to throw the inspectors out is to rebuild the program, freely, without the restrictions of -- and fear of having the inspectors barge in one day and run into one of the buildings and discovering what he's doing. So -- but before that even, the program was split into smaller units, some of them mobile, and research was continued on the nuclear weapon itself -- explosives, for getting components, such things.

BLITZER: So how close is he today, do you believe, to actually having perhaps a crude nuclear device?

HAMZA: I think he would be within probably more -- a little bit over a year, between a year and two years, to get a crude nuclear device. He has the design and the parts complete by now. What he needs is the fissile material, and the fissile material, if he can get them from abroad, he'll have the nuclear weapon within months. If he doesn't, if he has to arrange the uranium locally, to get them he'll need a little bit over a year to do it.

BLITZER: Larry Korb, how concerned should the U.S. be and its allies in that part of the world about an Iraqi nuclear capability?

LAWRENCE KORB, V.P., COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, I think we should be very concerned about a nation like -- a leader like Saddam having a nuclear weapon. I think if there is evidence that he has one, we would have the right to preempt them, as opposed to a regime change. In other words, go in like the Israelis did back in 1981.

BLITZER: When they went into the Osirak (ph) reactor outside of Baghdad and destroyed that unilaterally. Larry Korb, when you look at that nuclear posture review that was leaked to the news media over the weekend that specifically said the U.S. might be able to use a nuclear option against Iraq and some six other countries, tactical nuclear weapons, what went through your mind?

KORB: Well, I think it's good that we let those countries who would have or tried to get weapons of mass destruction know that if they use them, we'll retaliate. What concerns me is that the nuclear posture review also said we would use them where non-nuclear weapons are not effective, for example in cave busting, or in unexpected circumstances. I think that's a big change. We're not talking about deterrence or retaliation or preemption, we're talking about some really, really very soft criteria which would let the nuclear genie out of the bottle.

BLITZER: Khidhir Hamza, as you, the United Nations weapons inspections teams, they're trying to get back into Iraq. Do you believe if they can get back in, and Hans Bliksa (ph), in charge of those inspections, can go to various locations, they can really find out what's going on, or the Iraqis can give them the run-around?

HAMZA: No, they'll give them the run-around, and they wouldn't know where to locate it, and that's the objection I have to the other view, and that is we can go on and take out the nuclear weapons. You wouldn't know where it is. Remember, in the Gulf War, with all the Iraqi skies full of allied aircraft, they couldn't find the missiles, OK? How many missiles...

BLITZER: The SCUD missiles.

HAMZA: The SCUD missiles, and they were all around the country in hundreds, and probably very few were located and destroyed. So you have the same situation. Iraq is now expert at hiding those.

BLITZER: So your point is that this would be counterproductive if the Iraqis let the weapons inspection teams come in?

HAMZA: Saddam is indicating that now. He's letting the Arab League decide if the inspectors will go back in or not. So he's more or less relegating this authority to the Arab League. And this way, if they don't find, inspectors go in, and the Arab League concession and won't find anything, then the Arab League will be in blame or will be the intermediary in trying to lift the sanctions.

BLITZER: Well, what about that, Larry Korb? You probably know there is plenty of people here in Washington, including Senator Fred Thompson of Tennessee who argue that this whole weapons inspection team going back to Iraq would simply be counterproductive because Saddam could give them the run-around and in a year or two, before they got to find anything, he would complete his mission in building weapons of mass destruction.

KORB: Well, I think you're going to have to go through the negotiations with the Iraq -- the Iraqis to see if they'll let the inspectors back in because if you don't, it's going to be very hard to build support either for preemption or regime change. And I think you make it clear that if he does give the runaround, that will be the same as the situation where he hasn't allowed the inspectors back in, and then you reserve the right, you know, to preempt if you have to and you also make it clear to him that if he uses the weapons of mass destruction against anybody, that it will be the end of his regime. And one of the things that we know is Saddam wants to stay in power. And this would be one quick way for him to get out of power if he were to use those weapons in any way, shape or form.

BLITZER: All right, gentlemen. I want you to stand by and listen to this report. Our Jane Arraf is in Baghdad. She filed this report about what Saddam Hussein is up to nowadays as far as domestic Iraqi public opinion. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What does one of the world's most talked about men do with his time? This week, uncharacteristically, Saddam Hussein talks. He talks about farming, sort of.

SADDAM HUSSEIN, PRESIDENT, IRAQ (through translator): As they say in the countryside, a tractor is judged by the dust it raises.

ARRAF: He talks about staying in touch with the people.

HUSSEIN (through translator): The aim is to participate in correcting the bad and to build on the good.

ARRAF: With the U.S. warnings to Baghdad swirling around the region, the Iraqi leader has spent an almost unprecedented amount of Iraqi TV time lecturing and listening, listening to compliments mostly.

"You are Yousef (ph)", this official says, referring to a great man in the Islam holy book, the Koran.

(on camera): TV is the only place most Iraqis see the president. Since the Gulf War and threats to kill him from inside and outside Iraq, he almost never appears in public. The nightly appearances on television are a way of showing he's still very much in charge.

(voice-over): These Kurdish groups are safe, they're loyal to the president and not from Kurdish-controlled northern Iraq. "Convey my regards to every mountain and hill and every fallen stream and to every Kurdish man and woman, old or young", the president says.

Iraq has been effectively partitioned since the Gulf War. The north controlled by Kurds, either isolated from or hostile to Baghdad. On other evenings, the Iraqi leader holds talks with more import, like these with military leaders. But only those who are there get to hear what Saddam Hussein is saying at those meetings. For the rest of us, it is just the sweet sound of state television's favorite music.

Jane Araff, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And Khidhir Hamza, you've actually met with Saddam Hussein when you ran the nuclear weapons program in Iraq in the early 1990s. How does he manage to survive with so many enemies out there?

HAMZA: Well, he has this system where there is a continuous purge. Every six months or so, a conspiracy is declared to be in the making and people are rounded up and shot. So everybody is very cautious in what they do and what they say to avoid being on the next list. So everybody -- it is a state of terror. It is a government by terror. And many states manage to stay a long time that way, and Saddam this way. By the way, I have a comment also on the weapon again, back again, just one comment.

BLITZER: Which weapon?

HAMZA: The weapon program, nuclear weapon. And that is it is so well hidden, Saddam doesn't have to do much hedging around because the inspectors wouldn't know where to look.

BLITZER: What about that, Larry Korb? I know you believe that in order to generate the diplomatic support for a strike, the U.S. and the U.N. have to go through the process of at least offering to the Iraqis allowing these weapons inspections teams to go back in. But you heard what Khidhir Hamza just said.

KORB: Well, nobody is saying it is going to be easy, but we -- not only would we have the inspectors on the grounds, we have all kinds of sophisticated intelligence equipment that we can use. We may even have people on the ground there that can help us. So I think with all of those, we have a reasonable chance of finding out where they are.

But even if you don't, the fact of the matter is you still have deterrents. I mean, we have 6,000 strategic nuclear weapons in our arsenal and he's got to know that, that if he were to attempt to use it, that literally his regime and the country would be obliterated.

BLITZER: And he does appreciate the U.S. nuclear capability.

HAMZA: He is not going to use it. All he needs is declare it. He is not going to use it. I mean, don't forget, he's not crazy. The man is determined, but not mad. What he's going to do is make a test, declare himself in possession of the nuclear weapons and the whole equation of the Middle East will change.

BLITZER: Just by -- so you think he's prepared to have a nuclear test.

HAMZA: Yes. Just to declare himself...

BLITZER: And very briefly, Larry Korb, if he does that, that does change the equation throughout the region?

KORB: Slightly, but again, we still have overwhelming superiority. And if he goes through a test, then you would discover it. I mean, then it has to be out in the open. It is very hard to have a test without it being discovered. So if he did that, then I think he would have the ability to preempt.

BLITZER: Larry Korb in New York, thanks for joining us. Khidhir Hamza, thank you very much for joining us in the CNN WAR ROOM.

And when we come back, the battle may be won, but the war wages on. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

The U.S.-led battle in the eastern Afghan mountains known as Operation Anaconda is winding down. But the fight against die-hard al Qaeda forces is far from over. Our Nic Robertson joins us now live from Gardez. He's near the frontlines -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, when we were in the village of Shah-e-Kot, what we discovered evidence of a massive air assault, massive and sustained air assault on the mud- built compounds in that village. The village spreads over several square miles.

What we didn't see was evidence of a sustained ground assault. We did see about three dead Taliban and al Qaeda fighters in their defensive positions on the outskirts of the village and one destroyed vehicle that looked like it had been destroyed by a small missile. But there wasn't evidence of a massive ground offensive.

We did see that many Afghan fighters and U.S. special forces, they attacked the village area in an overnight operation. One group coming from the north, one group coming from the south, about 900 Afghan fighters teaming up along the way with about 40 U.S. special forces. And while the helicopters were still flying overhead providing security from possible Taliban and al Qaeda elements hiding out in the mountains, what those both U.S. and Afghan commanders told us was that while they formed a ring around the village of Shah-e-Kot to move in on it during the offensive, they believe that some Taliban and al Qaeda may have escaped.

And also, indicative of the massive air assault was what U.S. military briefers had said before, that during the last six days of Operation Anaconda, they had little sustained or concentrated firepower coming from the village. What we saw, Wolf, was an area that appeared to have sustained or concentrated firepower coming from the village. What we saw, Wolf, was an area that appeared to have sustained massive, massive air assault but put up little ground resistance -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And, Nic, the Pentagon maintains that hundreds of al Qaeda and Taliban fighters had been killed. Did you see evidence of that, bodies, for example?

ROBERTSON: We only saw three bodies. Of course, Operation Anaconda was spread over an area of 60 square miles. Much of that was high in the mountains and blocking maneuvers by the military to cut off lines of escape and egress for the Taliban and al Qaeda.

No, we didn't see a lot of bodies. There were of course rumors and are of course rumors that there are mountain caves in that area. Those caves are said to have harbored some of the al Qaeda and Taliban members and it is possible in those caves, when they've been struck by missiles and bombs, that Taliban and al Qaeda bodies are now lying. It was impossible for us to get out to the outlying areas. The area we were told was heavily mined. But inside the village area Shah-e- Kot that spreads over several square miles, we did not see a large number of bodies, no.

BLITZER: And officials here in Washington tell me that they do anticipate there will be other Operation Anaconda-like missions that the U.S. will engage in. Is there any sense any of that is already taking place?

ROBERTSON: There is no sense that another operation on the scale of Operation Anaconda is still under way. It is clear that some elements of it are still active. Overnight tonight there has been extensive reconnaissance flights by drone aircraft flying over here, close to the front of Operation Anaconda and also coalition bombers still flying -- still flying overhead.

We do know that about 30 miles east of here in the direction of Pakistan, where some of the Taliban and al Qaeda elements are believed to be headed, there is now stepped up security on the roads out of that area and the roads towards Pakistan. Other regional governors have told us that they believe al Qaeda and Taliban elements are active in their provinces and have suggested to us in the past that they've worked with or given intelligence, reconnaissance, intelligence on those elements and those groups. Perhaps other preparations are under way, Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic Robertson joining us once again from Gardez in eastern Afghanistan. Thank you very much for your report and this important note: Nic will be back in 40 minutes, at the top of the hour, for his special report: LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN. That's at 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.

Remember, I'd like to hear very much from you. You can always e- mail me your questions. Go my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. That's also where you can read my daily online column.

Coming up, the latest Middle East violence includes a massive military offensive by Israel. We'll be back in just a moment with a check of the top stories. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The Middle East crisis tops this hour's NEWS ALERT. The latest violence includes a massive Israeli military campaign. Some 20,000 troops engaged in operations in the West Bank and Gaza. President Bush today called the latest Israeli operation "not helpful." A Palestinian group that claimed responsibility for a number of terror attacks against Israel will be put on a U.S. list of terrorist organizations.

A senior Bush Administration official tells CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel, the U.S. will designate the el-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades a foreign terrorist organization. Those brigades are part of Yasser Arafat's fatah movement.

That's all the time we have tonight. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. CROSSFIRE begins right now.

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