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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Enron Fallout Hits Company's Accounting Firm; U.S. Envoy Attempts to Create Peace in Middle East
Aired March 14, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: huge fallout from the collapse of Enron. The Justice Department slaps criminal charges against accounting giant, Arthur Andersen.
As violence rages in the Middle East, a U.S. envoy tries to put the fire out. Did President Bush go too far in saying that Israel has gone too far?
A desperate bid for freedom in Beijing. We have the pictures you'll see only on CNN.
Fog-shrouded death on a major highway. More than 120 vehicles in a chain-reaction crash.
And the jury which found her guilty of murdering her children will now decide whether Andrea Yates lives or dies.
Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Topping our news alert: the United States takes steps to stop the bloodshed in the Middle East.
President Bush's special envoy, Anthony Zinni, is in the Middle East on a mission to bring about a cease-fire between the Israelis and the Palestinians. At least 10 people, seven Palestinians and three Israeli soldiers, were killed in fighting today. We'll have much more on this story in just a few moments.
The husband and mother of Andrea Yates pleaded for her life today, calling her a wonderful mother. The same Texas jury that convicted Yates for murdering her children will have to decide whether to sentence her to life in prison or death by injection. The sentencing phase of the trial began this morning in Houston.
At least four people were killed and dozens injured in a chain- reaction crash on a foggy section of interstate 75 in northwest Georgia, just south of the Tennessee border. About 125 cars and tractor trailer trucks were involved. The northbound lanes of the always busy interstate, connecting Chattanooga and Atlanta, are closed. The southbound lanes have just reopened.
The game of legal chicken is over between the accounting firm, Arthur Andersen and the Justice Department. Just a short while ago, Andersen was indicted for obstruction of justice stemming from the Enron scandal. Earlier, Andersen rejected a government deadline for a plea agreement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY THOMPSON, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: Obstruction of justice is a grave matter, and one that this department takes very seriously. Arthur Andersen is charged with a crime that attacks the justice system itself by impeding investigators and regulators from getting at the truth.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Joining us now with details on the government's charges against Arthur Andersen, CNN financial news correspondent, Allan Dodds Frank. Allan, is this a death sentence for Arthur Andersen?
ALLAN DODDS FRANK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think it well could be, Wolf. The deputy attorney general certainly came out with all his guns blazing, accusing the firm of widespread criminal conduct, of destroying tons of documents and trying to delete significant electronic documents, even though Andersen knew the SEC was investigating Enron, and continued to destroy documents for almost three weeks before receiving its own subpoena.
Furthermore the deputy attorney general said that this was so widespread that Andersen partners were destroying documents in Portland, Oregon, Chicago, Illinois and London, as well as Houston. So I think it will be exceedingly difficult for Andersen to hold on to its 2,300 and counting corporate clients -- Wolf.
BLITZER: So what happens next?
FRANKS: What happens next is Andersen is pushing for a speedy trial. One of their lawyers told CNN Financial News earlier they want a trial in two weeks. I think it will be unlikely that they'll get any judge to agree to a trial in two weeks. So far no individuals from Andersen indicted. Obviously the government trying to convert some of them into witnesses.
This has impact on the civil litigation because indeed, if Andersen does go under, although the firm says it will not, it could severely diminish the pool of money available in all the civil lawsuits.
BLITZER: All right. Allan Dodds Frank, updating us on the latest legal developments, the legal problems facing Arthur Andersen, a spill-off from the Enron collapse.
We want to turn now to the deadly violence in the Middle East and the latest effort by President Bush to stop it. The president's Middle East envoy, Anthony Zinni, arrived in Israel today on his third attempt to bring about a cease-fire. But new fighting added to the ever-growing death toll. And Ben Wedeman, our correspondent, is in Ramallah. He's got breaking news to report right now. Ben, what's happening?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yes, we've heard from Palestinian security sources that at least 40 Israeli armored vehicles, tanks as well as armored personnel carriers, have left the city this evening. Right now I can hear in the distance, on the main road between Ramallah and Jerusalem, the rumble of what sounds like tanks this evening. In fact, we've seen quite a lot of activity by the Israeli military, seeming to be pulling out of here.
So it seems that, after some significant pressure from the United States, that Israel is in fact withdrawing from the West Bank town of Ramallah, which it entered on Tuesday -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Arafat, correct me if I'm wrong, he's obviously still in Ramallah, right?
WEDEMAN: That's correct. He's been in his headquarters in Ramallah for the last three months. Israeli tanks came quite close to where that headquarters is located. However, it appears they have gone and he is still here.
BLITZER: So, Ben, just to recap. The news is that Israeli tanks, troops, are withdrawing from Ramallah. Does that mean all of them are withdrawing?
WEDEMAN: Well, it's difficult to say and it's very difficult to move around this city at night, given the amount of fighting that's been occurring here. And in fact, just a little while ago we heard an intense exchange of gunfire, saw tracers going through the sky. But it does appear that this is the beginning, at least, of the Israeli pullout from Ramallah.
BLITZER: All right. Ben Wedeman, breaking news here on this program. He's in Ramallah, which is not very far from Jerusalem. That's where our Jerusalem bureau chief, Mike Hanna, is standing by. Mike, what are you hearing about the start of this Israeli pull-out from Ramallah?
MIKE HANNA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, at the moment, no formal confirmation from the Israeli defense force that the withdrawal is under way. Though earlier in the day Ariel Sharon's office did issue a statement saying that there would be a redeployment of Israeli forces in that West Bank city.
What I can tell you though, is that some military sources are saying that the Israeli tanks are in the process of withdrawing from Ramallah, though as I stress, this is not a formal confirmation from the Israeli defense.
Now, these tanks and Israeli troops moved into Ramallah Tuesday. They have been there throughout since. A number of deaths have occurred on the Palestinian side. At least one Israeli soldier was killed in the operation. The Palestinians had said earlier that they would not go into any form of negotiation or talks about a cease-fire while Israeli forces remained, not only in Ramallah, but in other West Bank cities.
There's also been increasing international pressure on Israel to redeploy and withdraw its forces from Ramallah and other West Bank and Gaza cities. And it does appear, although as I said, we cannot formally confirm, this withdrawal is under way.
It does come as Ariel Sharon is meeting with the special U.S. envoy Anthony Zinni. A matter of hours after General Zinni arrived in the region in his search to get a cease-fire in place on the ground. Now, this search has failed on two occasions before. Each time there was a massive upsurge in violence when Zinni reached the region.
And yet now he is trying again. His mission: to put into place a cease-fire plan drawn up by the CIA director George Tenet. Given the atmosphere in the region following a week of intense violence, it's going to be very difficult indeed, Wolf.
BLITZER: Mike Hanna, thanks so much for that update. And thanks to Ben Wedeman in Ramallah as well.
Joining us to talk more about the Middle East crisis and whether President Bush may have gone too far in his sharp rebuke of Israel yesterday are Jim Zogby, he's the president of the Arab American Institute. And Democratic Congressman Bob Wexler of Florida, a member of the House international relations committee.
You're, Congressman, a very strong supporter of Israel . Were you surprised when President Bush said this yesterday? Listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Frankly, it's not helpful, what the Israelis have recently done, in order to create conditions for peace.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: For a U.S. president to come down hard on the Israeli government like that is unusual.
REP. BOB WEXLER (D-FL), INT'L RELATIONS CMTE.: I don't think it was helpful, nor is it prudent, for the president of the United States to become a daily handicapper of events in the Middle East. What we need from the White House is a consistent policy. The president should stick to his terrorist policy, which is either you're with us or against us. And he's said it many times before and is correct, that when Yasser Arafat begins to reduce the violence, the negotiation can occur.
I was with Prime Minister Sharon last week in Tel Aviv, and I'm convinced that he is absolutely committed to negotiating. He's taken a step back and said we don't need seven days of quiet anymore. What we need is a legitimate effort from Yasser Arafat. They've now removed their forces, or are removing them from Ramallah. This is the time where Arafat can get serious and help General Zinni.
BLITZER: Jim Zogby, your strong support of the Palestinians. Do you agree with Congressman Wexler?
JIM ZOGBY, ARAB AMERICAN INSTITUTE: On almost nothing, other than the fact that the president really did not issue a sharp rebuke.
BLITZER: Relatively speaking.
ZOGBY: What really intrigues me is that when Arafat writes an article in "The New York Times" calling for a vision of peace, the statement from the White House said, "it's not helpful." When Sharon says, "I wish I'd killed Arafat in 1982," we say "it's not helpful." It's become a term of art that means almost nothing.
If I'd brought my kids up with that, as the ultimate weapon, "it's not helpful," I don't know where they'd be today. The fact is that what we should have done is issue a much stronger rebuke of Israel. While Sharon, he says, is ready to go to negotiations, he has in fact invaded not only Ramallah, but many Palestinian refugee camps and other communities. And hundreds of Palestinians have been killed.
And thousands have been humiliated, by Israeli soldiers breaking holes into their homes and going in and trashing them. Crowding entire families, upwards of ten people, into one room. And spending days there, while they're treating them with the most degrading forms of abuse. It is creating a situation for a Palestinian backlash, that I'm afraid we're going to see.
BLITZER: What about that?
WEXLER: Chairman Arafat has left the Israelis with no choice. What Prime Minister Sharon is doing is what Yasser Arafat was obligated to do under Oslo, and that is destroy the roots of the terrorist operations. It is horrible when innocent victims are the result of a military action, whether those victims are Palestinians or Israelis.
But the difference is, Israel's design is to get at the structure of terrorism. Arafat's design of terrorism is to hit people in cafes, at weddings, innocent people.
ZOGBY: You can't say that, because Yasser Arafat has not done that. In fact, there are groups that are doing it and Arafat has arrested them. But the Israelis don't make Arafat's job any easier, when they issue the kind of abuse they have on Palestinians, undercutting his authority. Remember, he's been in virtual prison now for three months. At the same time, they've wanted him to crack down.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: What about his El-Aqsa brigades, which is part of his fatah movement? The State Department, Andrea Koppel is reporting, is about to list that as an official terrorist organization.
ZOGBY: It's part of the fatah movement, but it is not under his direct control. And I think we need to understand there that one of the things that's occurred, as this situation has spun out of control, is that groups and movements have been spawned out of this, that have gone well beyond where the situation is.
(CROSSTALK) BLITZER: He can't control everyone, can he, Congressman?
WEXLER: Well, it used to be that there was a difference between Hamas and Hezbollah and Arafat's fatah. The last couple of months have showed us that the distinction has been blurred. And either Chairman Arafat wants to be the president of a new Palestinian state, and take control of his people and control of his land, or he wants to be a terrorist...
ZOGBY: That's a lot of chutzpah to be saying that, when in fact, what Ariel Sharon has been doing is leading a massive armed military assault against Palestinian civilians using F-16s, Apache helicopter gunships and heavy personnel...
BLITZER: Let's focus on what...
(CROSSTALK)
ZOGBY: ... entire communities. And you call Arafat and his people terrorists?
BLITZER: So, what should the Bush administration do? They've sent Zinni back.
ZOGBY: Zinni has to go back with teeth. He has to say to both sides, not just pressure on Arafat and "it's not helpful" to Sharon -- put pressure on both sides to say, cut it out and here are the steps. We have to outline the steps that need to be taken.
BLITZER: There is an outline, isn't there?
ZOGBY: Yes, I know. But you know what? If Sharon had accepted Tenet-Mitchell when it was issued, and not made this foolish seven day period, we would have saved over a thousand lives. That's how many Palestinians and Israelis have died since Sharon made this seven day waiting period.
BLITZER: George Tenet, the CIA director, George Mitchell, the former senator, they both have plans for a cease-fire and then the resumption of peace negotiations.
WEXLER: The president needs to get hands-on involvement. The president needs to put his own prestige and his own popularity on the line. He needs to move both the Israelis and the Palestinians to the Tenet agreement. It's a security agreement. It's the only way confidence will be built. That's when Chairman Arafat will really be tested on whether or not he has the will or the capability to bring control over the terrorist operations...
(CROSSTALK)
ZOGBY: ... and I think that would be the answer.
BLITZER: The crown prince of Saudi Arabia, Abdullah, has got a plan. There's an Arab summit at Beirut later this month. Anything going to come of that? ZOGBY: Frankly, I had great hopes that it would. And I think that still, the crown prince has tremendous prestige in the region, and is calling for a vision of peace that in fact, establishes normalization for full withdrawal.
Now, the fact is, is that he was gaining momentum with all of this, winning over supporters including Syria and many other Arab countries. The question will be whether or not what Sharon has done over the last several weeks undercuts that.
BLITZER: Let's hope this is the beginning of the end. Maybe the storm is going to lead to some quiet. We can all hope. Thanks to both of you for joining us. Bob Wexler and Jim Zogby.
ZOGBY: Thank you.
WEXLER: Thank you.
BLITZER: Thank you very much. And tonight, at 8:00 Eastern, CNN will be "LIVE FROM JERUSALEM." Learn how Palestinians and Israelis view the visit from the U.S. special envoy, and the prospects for peace. That's tonight, 8:00 Eastern, only here on CNN.
Taliban and al Qaeda forces, meanwhile, holed up in the Afghan mountains, are feeling the squeeze of Operation Anaconda. That's according to a U.S. commander who today said the enemy would be wise to -- quote -- "sleep with one eye open." Our senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, is keeping a close watch on the war. He filed this report a short time ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Throughout the day U.S. special forces have had the area around Shah-e-Kot village sealed off. This was the focus of Operation Anaconda. They've been scouring the mountainside looking for any Taliban or al Qaeda elements that may still be in that area. Also, there are cave complexes there that they intend to look at.
What we have done is go around the edge of Operation Anaconda towards the east, on the road towards Pakistan where Taliban and al Qaeda elements were feared to be fleeing. There were heavy security checkpoints there, run by U.S. special forces and manned by Afghan fighters.
At those checkpoints, commanders told us that they had arrested so far three al Qaeda fighters trying to head away from Operation Anaconda. Now, as we headed late in the day back towards this town, we found those secure checkpoints had been removed, perhaps indicating that there are no longer any Taliban or al Qaeda elements that are now trying to head eastwards towards Pakistan.
But throughout the day we could see B-52 bombers circling overhead at the area of Operation Anaconda. We could also see an occasional bomb dropping, plumes of dust and smoke rising up through the mountains. And as we arrived back in the town of Gardez late at night, we saw four vehicles of U.S. special forces headed out into the night, apparently appeared to be going on a nighttime operation.
They had night vision goggles on. They had communications equipment strapped on. And they appeared to be headed out. Still, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Taliban and al Qaeda elements through the night. Nic Robertson, CNN, Gardez, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Thank you very much.
Tonight in "THE WAR ROOM," Operation Anaconda. Mission complete, or will al Qaeda live another day? Watch it at 7:00 Eastern, 4:00 Pacific.
And now to the case of Daniel Pearl, the "Wall Street Journal" reporter who was kidnapped and killed. A federal grand jury has indicted a key suspect in the case. CNN national correspondent Susan Candiotti has details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Three weeks after Daniel Pearl's murder was revealed on videotape, a U.S. grand jury filed formal charges. The key suspect, Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: Saeed led a ring of co- conspirators who carefully and methodically set a death trap for Daniel Pearl, lured him into it with lies, and savagely ended his life.
CANDIOTTI: Saeed has been in custody in Pakistan without formal charges since last month. A New Jersey grand jury returned a two- count indictment: conspiracy to commit hostage-taking resulting in Pearl's death, and carrying out the kidnapping. The indictment says Saeed set up a phony meeting between Pearl and someone he was trying to interview. When Pearl showed up at this restaurant, he was snatched.
Investigators also revealed, by the time the kidnappers sent a second e-mail January 30th, with more photos and more demands, Pearl was already dead, his body mutilated. Saeed is also accused of training and fighting with Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda forces just before and after the September 11th attacks.
Charges were also unsealed linking Saeed to another case, the 1994 kidnapping in India of four western tourists, including an American. Extraditing Saeed may be tricky. The Pakistanis want to try him first. According to one former diplomat, Saeed's indictment could make extraditing him easier.
KARL INDERFURTH, FMR. STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I think actually this helps Musharraf, because it shows that the legal steps are now being taken, in a formal sense, to bring Saeed back to this country.
CANDIOTTI: The attorney general met with Pearl's widow, Marianne, before announcing the indictment.
ASHCROFT: The United States has not forsaken your husband, nor the values that he embodied and cherished. The story of Daniel Pearl, that he died trying to tell, will be told. And justice will be done.
CANDIOTTI: Daniel Pearl's body and murder weapon have not been found.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
In court this week, Saeed threatened retribution if he was extradited to the U.S. U.S. authorities appear willing to take their chances -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Susan, do we know for sure that Saeed was the mastermind of the entire operation, or just a key player?
CANDIOTTI: A key player at this point. We don't know if he played a larger role. That's something that U.S. authorities, the FBI working hand in hand with the Pakistanis, are trying to nail down.
BLITZER: Susan Candiotti, thanks for that report. We'll continue to follow, obviously, this story.
And when we come back, she was convicted of killing her children. Now jurors must decide if Andrea Yates lives or dies. We'll go to Houston.
And, he was convicted of failing to pay child support. Just wait until you hear this sentence.
And Rosie is coming out tonight, but that's not all she's drawing attention to.
First, the news quiz. Which of these states do not allow gay couples to adopt? Is it Mississippi, Utah. Florida? The answer, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. Jurors who found Andrea Yates guilty of capital murder in the drowning deaths of her children must now choose the punishment for her crime.
They'll have to decide whether she'll be executed or sentenced to life in prison. Our national correspondent, Gary Tuchman, joins us live from Houston, where the penalty phase began today. What happened today, Gary?
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The jury in the Andrea Yates case will begin deciding tomorrow whether Andrea Yates should spend the rest of her life in prison, with a chance parole after 40 years, or die by lethal injection. Today did begin the penalty phase of the trial.
It's like a mini-trial. Both sides get a chance to have opening statements and call witnesses. But the prosecution decided to do neither. The defense called 11 witnesses, including Russell Yates, her husband, and Karen Kennedy, the 73-year-old mother of Andrea Yates.
Andrea Yates was found guilty of murdering all five of her children. Nevertheless, all of her family and friends who took the stand today spoke in the present tense, saying she "is" a good mother. Rusty Yates took the stand. He said -- quote -- "she's a wonderful mother," and added, "she is the kindest, most caring person I know." He cried during part of his testimony. He was only on the stand for three minutes backing up his wife.
And then Andrea Yates' mother, Karen Kennedy, took the stand. She said, "My daughter is the best mother," and added, "I'm here pleaded for her life. I've lost seven people in a year." The seven people she's referring to are her five grandchildren. Her husband perished last year from cancer. And now her daughter, who will, at the very least, go to jail for the next 40 years.
The jury has to answer two questions when it begins its deliberations. No. 1, is she a danger to society? If all 12 jurors say yes, they then continue to the next question, which says: are there mitigating factors to sentence her to life, rather than death? If all 12 say no to that question and all 12 to the first question, she is then sentenced to death by lethal injection.
Tomorrow in this courthouse there will be one more witness by the defense, then closing arguments by both sides. And then the jury will begin the deliberations.
BLITZER: Obviously, Gary, none of us knows how long those deliberations were. Although we do know, the initial deliberations, three and a half-hours or so, where the guilty verdict was extraordinarily speedy.
But what's the explanation why the prosecution, Gary, didn't call any witnesses today?
TUCHMAN: There's a mixed explanation to that. The prosecution said that it's evidence and it's testimony from the main part of the trial, stands for this part of the trial. But it's very clear the prosecution is not being as zealous as it could be in trying to get the death penalty.
Nevertheless, the prosecution does say it will use its allotted 30 minutes tomorrow for closing arguments.
BLITZER: Gary Tuchman, once again, covering the story from Houston. Thank you very much for your report.
Let's check some other stories in our "Justice File." Prosecutors are starting their rebuttal today in the California dog mauling trial, with closing arguments scheduled for Monday. The judge in the case says a murder charge might have never been filed if only the defendants had shown some remorse. The Senate judiciary committee is scheduled to vote shortly on the nomination of Charles Pickering to a seat on a federal appeals court. Pickering has come under fire from critics on the left, including civil rights groups and the National Abortion Rights Action League. Supporters say his record has been distorted. When that vote comes, we'll of course bring it to you right away.
And a Kentucky judge has ordered a man who failed to pay child support not to have sex. The man, who has fathered 12 children with 11 women, can't work because of health problems. He owes $33,000 in back-child support. The man agreed to stay celibate until his debt is paid in full, or risk prison time.
Coming up: a Libyan man convicted in the bombing of Pan Am 103 wants his conviction overturned. We'll tell you what the judges said.
And Rosie O'Donnell and the court of public opinion. Should gays be allowed to adopt?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Earlier we asked, which of these states do not allow gay couples to adopt? Is it Mississippi, Utah, Florida? And the answer: all of them.
In a moment, should gay couples be allowed to adopt? Before you hear from Rosie O'Donnell, hear from two very different points of view.
But first, our news alert. A Scottish court in the Netherlands today upheld a conviction of a former Libyan intelligence agent in the 1998 bombing of Pan Am flight 103 over Locherbie. He will now be transferred to Scotland to serve a sentence. The White House welcomed the decision.
A new report says gay members of the military are facing continued harassment from fellow service members. According to the Service Members Legal Defense Network, 871 cases of anti-gay harassment were reported in 2000. That number went up 23 percent last year to more than 1,000. The report also says the number of servicemen forced to leave the military last year because of their sexuality reached its highest level in 14 years.
Tonight the public will have a chance to see Rosie O'Donnell answer questions instead of ask them. Her interview with Diane Sawyer touches on several topics, most notably her decision to come out of the closet. It also involves the issue of gay adoption and O'Donnell's empathy for two Florida men who were forced to give up one of their foster child because of a recent court ruling.
Right now, we want to talk more about that issue with two people on opposite sides of the argument. Elizabeth Birch is executive director of the Human Rights Campaign. She is in favor of gay adoption. And Bob Knight is director of the Culture and Family Institute. He strongly opposes gay adoption. As you know Mr. Knight, the American Academy of Pediatrics says that there is nothing wrong with gay and lesbian couples adopting. Among other things, they say children who are born to or adopted by one member of the same-sex couple deserve the security of two legally recognized parents.
BOB KNIGHT, DIRECTOR, CULTURE AND FAMILY INSTITUTE: Well, I'm afraid the academy has forfeited a lot of the professional stature that they have earned over the years with this kind of ruling, because there is a mountain of social science evidence that show kids do best in mother-and-father married families.
If you are to pit all that evidence against a handful of studies, mostly done by gay activists, that say kids are no different in gay families, then all these studies are wrong, OK? And that's what they have done. They have also ignored a study in "The American Sociological Review" that said these studies in fact show kids are profoundly influenced. They are more apt to be sexual earlier. They are more apt to identify sexually as homosexuals. They have a more open attitude toward homosexuality.
And why would we be surprised? Kids take cues from their parents.
BLITZER: All right, Elizabeth?
ELIZABETH BIRCH, DIRECTOR, HUMAN RIGHTS CAMPAIGN: Well, I just think that is a misrepresentation of the research.
But let me start by saying that I'm thrilled that Rosie O'Donnell has made this decision to come out. She is coming out with her partner, Kelli Carpenter, and with their children. And she is quite a beloved public figure in America. She has been in people's living rooms for about six years now. So I hope that will help. It will be another angle on gay life. And I think it's enormously positive.
We live in a country where about 500,000 children are in the foster care system. And the research that Mr. Knight is talking about is an analysis of two parents vs. one parent. The research -- if the research on...
BLITZER: The sociological studies, you mean.
(CROSSTALK)
BIRCH: No, wait, wait, wait.
If the research on gay individuals, like myself, as parents is wrong, then all social science is wrong. There were 21 major studies between the years 1982 to 1998, which is what Dr. Judith Stacey looked at.
KNIGHT: Those studies are deeply flawed.
BLITZER: Let me read an another excerpt from the American Academy of Pediatrics. Among other things in their statement, which came out in February, they say: "Denying legal parent status through adoption prevents these children from enjoying the psychological and legal security that comes from having two willing, capable and loving parents."
KNIGHT: It also would prevent them from being placed in motherless and fatherless homes by design, which is what is happening when you open it up to gay adoption.
You know, Elizabeth, you say 500,000 kids are in the foster care system. What you didn't say is only 110,000 of those kids are eligible for adoption. The rest, their parents still have custody rights to them. You are talking about 110,000 kids. And you are talking about one million to two million married couples waiting to adopt kids.
They are going to China, they are going to Russia to try to get kids there. There is no excuse for putting a kid intentionally into a homosexual household. They have a right to have a mom and a dad.
(CROSSTALK)
BIRCH: There is no reason not to. All of the research shows that what children need the most is, they need unconditional love and a stable home.
(CROSSTALK)
KNIGHT: So fathers aren't important.
BIRCH: That's ridiculous.
KNIGHT: That's what you're saying. They don't need a dad.
BIRCH: There are a lot of households with two dads and they do very, very well.
KNIGHT: Well, then I guess they don't need a mom. I mean, come on.
BIRCH: These children, all of the evidence and all of the research shows that the sons and daughters of gays and lesbians -- and we have a whole generation of them now -- are flourishing. And the way that he has taken the research and twisted it is abhorrent.
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: Let me just remind our viewers what President Bush said when he was a presidential candidate on March 23, 1999. He told "The Dallas Morning News": "I believe children ought to be adopted in families with a woman and a man who are married."
Would you concede, Elizabeth, that the preference, all things being equal, it would be better for these foster children to be adopted by a man and a woman as opposed to two men or two women? BIRCH: No, I would not concede that.
And, in fact, Rosie O'Donnell invited President Bush and the first lady to come to her home for the weekend. And I hope he does that. But I would like him to stop at our home first, because, in fact, that was a very painful position for the governor, then Governor Bush, to take in Texas. And I hope he has grown. And I hope his heart is open, because, in fact, we have twins. And I think -- it was a Texas adoption. And I think that, indeed, that perhaps the president could tell us a thing or two about raising twins.
BLITZER: Maybe you want to invite the president to come to your house. You have two boys, right?
BIRCH: Absolutely.
No, a boy and girl. And they are absolutely flourishing.
(CROSSTALK)
KNIGHT: And there weren't any married couples who could have had these children so these kids would have a chance at watching mothers and fathers interact, married men and women? They are not going to see that.
BIRCH: No, what they have is two loving parents, loving parents, a stable home.
KNIGHT: I'm not questioning your intentions, but I'm saying fathers are important to development.
(CROSSTALK)
BIRCH: But that's a false premise.
KNIGHT: That fathers are important.
BIRCH: No, the choice is not between that.
(CROSSTALK)
BIRCH: It is often between loving parents who happen to be gay and a foster care system or an adoption system where kids are churned.
(CROSSTALK)
KNIGHT: If you care about kids, you are going to try put them in a mom-and-dad home.
BIRCH: There are lots of married couples that are not good parents, Robert. And I think you know that.
KNIGHT: There must be dysfunctional gay couples, too. It's not fair to compare the dysfunctional with other dysfunctionals.
BIRCH: I am just saying -- no, wait a minute, the most conscience decision a gay couple ever makes is to parent, because we have to work very hard to do it. You know, sometimes there are unexpected children in heterosexual families. Sometimes there are circumstances.
KNIGHT: Which, of course, isn't going to happen in a homosexual household.
BIRCH: There are a lot of straight couples, heterosexual couples, where you have not figured out a way, on a public policy basis, to protect them from abuse, from poverty, from many, many other challenges.
KNIGHT: The surest way you can protect kids is to get them in an intact, married, mother-and-father home.
(CROSSTALK)
BIRCH: It's in a two-parent -- two parents earning is a stable home. And you don't have any evidence to show otherwise. Your evidence...
KNIGHT: This is not about economics. It is about kids having moms and dads. Every child is entitled to have that if we can do that.
(CROSSTALK)
BIRCH: It's about unconditional love and stability.
BLITZER: Unfortunately, we are all out of time. We have to leave it right there.
Bob Knight, Elizabeth Birch, thanks for joining us. This debate, I'm sure, is only just beginning.
BIRCH: Thank you.
BLITZER: And our "Web Question of the Day" is this: "How do you feel about gay couples adopting kids?" You can vote at my Web page, CNN.com/Wolf. And while you are there, let me know what you are thinking. There's a "Click Here" icon on the left side of the page. Send me your comments. I will read some of them on the air each day. Also, you can read my daily online column there -- once again: CNN.com/Wolf.
Long lines, antiquated computer systems, and visas to terrorists? As problems mount for the INS, one outspoken former presidential candidate takes his shots. And talk about dangerous duty: Try jumping into this wasp nest without getting stung.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Now a follow-up to a CNN exclusive: CNN was the first to bring you the story of INS an mistake. Six months after the September 11 terror attacks, a Florida flight school received notification that two of the hijackers were approved for student visas.
The attorney general, John Ashcroft, is promising to take action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The INS has a very difficult job to do. And it's suffered from decades of mismanagement. But we will correct these problems.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Critics say this visa controversy points to larger problems with the nation's immigration process. Earlier this week, I discussed the issue with Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, and former Reform Party presidential candidate Pat Buchanan. Pat Buchanan also has a new book out on the subject. It's called the "Death of the West."
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Pat Buchanan, Frances Kissling, thanks to both of you for joining us.
Frances, to you: How can you possibly defend the INS for sending out those student visas six months to the day after September 11 to two of those hijackers?
FRANCES KISSLING, PRESIDENT, CATHOLICS FOR A FREE CHOICE: Well, you can't defend the INS for doing that, any more than you can defend the CIA for not having adequate intelligence at the time of 9/11.
But who you can defend are immigrants, the many legal immigrants in this country, the many student immigrants in this country, who are here to make a good life and who contribute to our society.
BLITZER: All right, Pat Buchanan, what about that?
BUCHANAN: Well, look, this INS report, with Mohamed Atta getting a student clearance six months after the massacre of September 11, would be comical if it weren't so tragic. It is indicative of the mess that exists in the Immigration and Naturalization Service, how incompetent that agency is, and how Mr. Ridge had best get control of that if we are to have any security.
BLITZER: Frances Kissling, a lot of people believe maybe there should be some sort of freeze until the INS gets its act together, because people are nervous who is getting into this country.
KISSLING: Well, I think that, in fact, the INS certainly does need to get its act together. We do need much better immigration and naturalization enforcement in the country.
But, in the interim, I think it would be a terrible mistake to cut off all immigration from everywhere, or even most of immigration. Immigrants still are the lifeblood of this country. Most of the people who enter this country as immigrants are good, solid, decent people who contribute to our society.
I don't think we can blame and make immigrants suffer because of this government agency. Let's tighten up on the agency. Let's improve its enforcement. Let's get other people involved in other government agencies. But let's keep allowing immigrants in. And let's give an amnesty to the people who are here.
BLITZER: Pat Buchanan, go ahead.
BUCHANAN: Look, between eight million and 11 million people are here illegally. They broke in line. They broke the law. They broke into the United States. They disobey our laws by even being here; 300,000 have been ordered deported and disappeared, 6,000 from al Qaeda countries. When Mr. Clinton gave basically citizenship to one million people in time for the '96 election, 80,000 had criminal records; 6,000 of them were guilty of serious felonies.
BLITZER: All right, Pat Buchanan, what would you do about it?
BUCHANAN: Well, the American people want something done about it. Two-thirds of them want illegal immigration halted. Excuse me, 95 percent want it halted. Two-thirds are opposed to this amnesty; 75 percent want a moratorium on immigration in this country. We don't it get it because we've got a virtual democracy, not a real one.
(CROSSTALK)
BUCHANAN: Hold it.
And we don't get it because we've got a president...
KISSLING: We would have a much better opportunity to control these million people if they were indeed given amnesty, if they were citizens, if they were participating in this society, and they didn't have to hide. If you really want to control them, let's give them citizenship.
BUCHANAN: Amnesty is rewarding massive lawbreaking into this country.
BLITZER: Frances Kissling, you have the last word. Are you defending the Republican Party in the face of this decision?
KISSLING: I certainly am. I defend whoever does the right thing, in that sense. It doesn't matter whether they are Republicans or Democrats. The right thing is to regularize the status of those people who are in this country to make it possible for them to both get benefits and to be more responsive citizens. And I support it wholeheartedly.
BUCHANAN: Wolf, these Republicans are turning the land of the free and the home of the brave into an international flophouse if they do this tonight.
KISSLING: No, they are turning it into a compassionate society that cares about the people who are here... BUCHANAN: There is a difference between...
KISSLING: ... and that creates a civil and decent opportunity for people to be good citizens.
BUCHANAN: There is a difference between compassion and utter folly and stupidity. And that is what amnesty would be.
BLITZER: Frances Kissling and Pat Buchanan, I see you don't agree on this.
KISSLING: I'm with the pope on this: more immigration.
BLITZER: We will have you back. Thanks to both of you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And when we come back, storming an embassy and making a run for freedom: exclusive pictures from an unexpected place.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
You're about to see something that normally does not get on television. CNN was the only network witness as North Koreans looked for a better life and risked their lives to get it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): Our story begins in Beijing, the capital of communist China, not a place you would normally look to for freedom. These North Koreans in baseball caps are an ambitious bunch. Just beyond camera view is the Spanish Embassy. As they head toward it, their stroll becomes a stampede.
Let's show you again. The North Korean mob mows over the Chinese guard. The guard tries to stop a few, but all make it inside safely. The last scene is a celebration. The Korean on the right jumps up and down after completing the mission. The Chinese guards arrive, but they are too late. There are more than 20 North Koreans inside the embassy, including children. Before their daring act, they told the CNN crew in Beijing why they did it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I never had imagined another country better than North Korea. And now, after I escaped, I could not stand any more. Now I know we were cheated.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It was not just lack of food. They controlled us politically. We were not treated as human beings.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Still, the asylum seekers may be deported to North Korea. Analysts say both Spain and China may not want to offend that country and they don't want to encourage a refugee repeat. And, indeed, within the last two hours, our Madrid bureau received a statement from Spain's Foreign Ministry. It says this: "The conversations with the Chinese are not finished."
In other international news, it could have been a stinging defeat. A local pest controller in New Zealand who volunteered to take on a car-sized wasp nest in a tree admitted he was hugely crazy. The man wore a makeshift sting-proof suit, dangled from a helicopter, and poured poison into the nest. The mission was a success.
Surprise, surprise: What greeted Arkansas State employees when they tried use their corporate cards? That's just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Now checking these stories on today's "Newswire": Arkansas finds itself in a credit crunch, so to speak. American Express says the state's government recently had a balance of more than $800,000. Half of it was four months past due. Apparently, 6,400 Arkansas employees charged both personal and business expenses to their special American Express cards. All accounts were suspended.
Even if the East Coast gets plenty of April showers next month, the May flowers could still look awfully dry. Government forecasters say the severe drought that's parching much of the country will get worse in the coming months, despite normal rainfall levels this spring. Right now, New York City's storage reservoir is 50 percent below normal.
Let's go New York now and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE." That, of course, begins right at the top of the hour -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Wolf, thank you very much.
Coming up tonight: criminal charges leveled by the Justice Department against one of the nation's largest accounting firms. We will hear from Andersen tonight. And we will take a look at the effect Andersen's collapse could have on the industry, its clients, corporate America, and Andersen's 85,000 employees. International security expert George Friedman (ph) will join us to look at the prospects for peace in the Middle East as the president's envoy, Anthony Zinni, tries to start truce negotiations. The Academy Awards a moneymaker for ABC, celebrity boxing a moneymaker for Fox: It is all about the numbers. In this case, the numbers amount to the lowest common denominator.
We'll have that story for you and a lot more all coming up at the top of the hour. Please join us -- now back to you, Wolf.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou.
And in just a moment, your turn: "How do you feel about gay couples adopting kids?" The results of our "Web Question of the Day" and why a viewer was disappointed in our coverage yesterday.
Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Our "Web Question of the Day" is this: "How do you feel about gay couples adopting kids?" Fifty-five percent oppose; 32 percent support: 13 percent, so far, are indifferent. A reminder: This poll is not scientific.
Time now to hear from you.
My interview with writer David Brock yesterday generated lots of feedback. Michael writes: "During Wolf's interview with David Brock, the tag line under David read 'Conservative Turned Ultra-Liberal.' That is outrageous. A more appropriate tag would have been 'Former Ultra-Right-Wring Nut Turned Truth-Teller.' Why didn't Wolf follow up on the vast-right-wing conspiracy accusation? Was he afraid that it is true?"
Isaac thinks there is more to the story: "This is not a case of a conservative turned liberal. I think it's a case of a confession of someone who was the hired gun in a smear campaign. It's explosive. This is about civility and right and wrong. It transcends party or class."
Elliot agrees with him: "I was disappointed in the segment on writer David Brock and the lack of time he was given to discuss issues relating to his book and the Clinton presidency. A follow-up is warranted."
We might just do that.
That's all the time we have. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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