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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Is Pakistan Too Dangerous for Americans?; Why Would Afghan Warlord Free Taliban Prisoners?

Aired March 22, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: Is Pakistan too dangerous for Americans? A diplomatic pullout follows a deadly church bombing as charges are filed in the murder of American journalist Daniel Pearl.

Why would an Afghan warlord free hundreds of Taliban prisoners? Is a power struggle building in the new Afghanistan?

They fought alongside al Qaeda and the Taliban. Are they ready for a holy war in the rest of central Asia?

I'll ask Ahmed Rashid, best selling offer of "Taliban" and the just released "Jihad" as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting tonight from Washington.

The United States and its coalition partners have made major gains these past several months in the war against al Qaeda and its terror network. But threats remain against U.S. troops in Afghanistan as well as against the new regime there. And there are also now new dangers for Americans in Pakistan.

The state department today ordered all non-essential personnel and the families of diplomats to leave Pakistan. While the United States is voicing confidence in the government of President Pervez Musharraf, officials say there is heightened concern over now threats. And the move follows this week's grenade attack on a church near the United States embassy in Islamabad, which killed five people, including the wife and daughter of a U.S. diplomat.

Meantime, in Karachi, an important development in the case of the murdered American journalist. CNN's Ash-Har Quraishi picks up that story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ASH-HAR QURAISHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Yes, Wolf. Today in Karachi, suspected mastermind of the murder -- the kidnapping and murder of "Wall Street Journal" reporter Daniel Pearl appeared in court. He arrived amidst heavy security. Some 300 police officers guarding the area and also bringing him into the courtroom. About a half hour later, he emerged. Prosecutors emerged with a list of charges that had been filed. Now, among those charges, kidnapping for ransom, terrorist activities and murder. Now, also listed on that charge sheet today were a total of 11 suspects. Of those 11 suspects, four are in custody including Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh. The others three suspects have been linked to the e-mails that were forwarded on, the photographs of Daniel Pearl in captivity.

Today, the evidence that was presented including a videotape showing the killing of Daniel Pearl. Also in court, the confession by Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, stating that he had kidnapped Daniel Pearl, as well as another statement he made saying that Daniel Pearl was dead.

Today, we also see what was coming out, the prosecution's list of witnesses. Included on that list, the widow of Daniel Pearl, Mariane Pearl. Also, a taxi cab driver who claims to have dropped off Daniel Pearl at the last location he was seen here in Karachi, before he was allegedly picked up by Omar Saeed.

Now, another thing we are hearing at this point is that this trial will begin in about a week, seven days from now. That's March 29, at which time, Omar Saeed says he will handle his own defense. He says he does not trust the lawyers here. And prosecutors also telling us that should he be convicted of these charges, the maximum penalty would be death.

Ash-Har Quraishi, CNN, reporting from Karachi. Back you to, Wolf.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Ash-Har.

Right now, they claim to be allies, but a powerful and ruthless warlord who controls a key region in Afghanistan may prove to be a serious rival to the country's interim leader, Hamid Karzai. CNN's Nic Robertson has the story from northern Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Running free from Sherbegan (ph) jail, Taliban prisoners celebrate their release after four months captivity. In all, 240 were set free from the northern prison, some still recovering from battle wounds. It is the largest release of Taliban prisoners so far by northern commander General Abdul Rashid Dostum, who ordered the men to be set free.

"Tell your mothers, fathers and relatives General Dostum has set you free," he says. A message he admits contrasts with his image among these Taliban fighters of a ruthless adversary. Almost 3,000 remain in the overcrowded jail, but these, Dostum says, were set free as a gesture of good will.

GENERAL ABDUL RASHID DOSTUM, NORTHERN SPECIAL REP. (through translator): It's time for unity in Afghanistan, and it's time for sympathy to be developed between different ethnic groups.

ROBERTSON: The release, also partly prompted by a request the previous day by the head of the interim government, Hamid Karzai, who according to Dostum, is becoming a closer friend. Karzai has appointed General Dostum his special representative in the north.

DOSTUM (through translator): I want to leave my military work to my assistants. I want to pay more attention to my political job to solve the problems of the people of the south.

ROBERTSON: For Dostum, that means meetings with people he doesn't see eye to eye with, like Afghanistan's former president, Burhanuddin Rabbani, whose strict interpretation of Islam is very different from Dostum's more secular views. But finding ways to build strategic alliances will have increasing value here in the next few months before the loya jirga or grand council meets to redistribute power.

DOSTUM: I hope the loya jirga will include all ethnic groups and the will receive equal rights, especially the people in the south, and I hope they will not forget us.

ROBERTSON (on camera): General Dostum says he doesn't want more power, that he rules through popularity and respect. His release of Taliban prisoners could well help build on that outside of his region in the north of Afghanistan.

(voice-over): It is unlikely any prisoners leaving Dostum's jail consider themselves anything more than lucky. There is every possibility, however, they are pawns in the greater Afghan game of reshuffling power.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Sherbegan, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: He gave us the best-selling look into the Taliban, but was Afghanistan just the beginning? Are there plans for a holy war throughout the region?

Within the past hour, I was joined here in the CNN WAR ROOM by the noted journalist, Ahmed Rashid. He is author of "Taliban" and the new book "Jihad".

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Ahmed Rashid, thanks so much for joining us. Welcome to Washington. We met the last time in Islamabad. Good to have you here in the United States. Let's talk. You're an authority on this subject. Let's talk about your overall assessment briefly. What has been achieved, if anything, over these past six months?

AHMED RASHID, AUTHOR, "JIHAD" AND "TALIBAN": Well, I think al Qaeda and Taliban have certainly been destroyed politically and militarily in Afghanistan. Al Qaeda networks abroad, of course, remain and they still have to be wrapped up. But I think the focus in Afghanistan has now shifted. I think the military operation is now very peripheral to the political process that is now starting with the return of the king, the meeting of the loya jirga, the grand tribal council in June.

And I think, you know, U.S. policy has to reflect that. There has to be more of a political strategy, an aid strategy and greater support has to be given to the interim government to strengthen it through money, reconstruction, development and putting pressure on the warlords.

BLITZER: Are you suggesting the United States also participate in the international peacekeeping force that's on the ground now?

RASHID: No, but I think the U.S. should be encouraging other countries to do so. But unfortunately, we have had statements from Vice President Cheney yesterday saying that the U.S. is not in favor of an expansion of the peacekeeping force to other cities. That's going to I think depress any kind of enthusiasm for it in Europe and amongst other Muslim countries who might have been keen to do it.

I was in Kabul just a few days ago. I met all the military officers, Americans, British, French, Spanish. And on the ground, all the military officers see the need for an expansion, if this political process is to work.

BLITZER: Is Hamid Karzai the man who can get the job done in creating a peaceful, democratic Afghanistan?

RASHID: I think, you know, Hamid Karzai, at the moment is the best man for the job. And, you know, he has tried, you know, very hard so far, but he has, you know, several hindrances. The first is the security issue, which is paramount and the fact that, you know, there's not an international presence in the cities outside Kabul.

The second thing is that no money has come for development and reconstruction. The donors have pledged $4.5 billion at the Tokyo conference in January. None of that money has come. In Kabul, the rubble is still lying around all over the city. People are anxiously looking for jobs and development. But, you know, none of this has yet started. So, what, I think the interim government needs and Karzai needs is money, development, job creation, so he can start demobilizing some of these warlord armies.

BLITZER: Well, speaking about warlords, we have an e-mail question from John in Minnesota who wants you answer this, if you can: "It seems the self-serving posture of local tribal leaders is responsible for al Qaeda's ability to come and go throughout Operation Anaconda. Can the U.S. afford to take on these leaders, these warlords?"

RASHID: Well, I think, you know, at the moment, the U.S. has enormous political influence, you know, with these warlords because it is arming them. It's funding them. It is supporting them.

Now at moments, yes, I mean, I think the warlords have exploited this relationship. They have got the U.S. to bomb wrong targets and innocent villages, working out their own tribal feuds. But I think what is needed is a bigger political strategy on the ground, perhaps run by the military, perhaps run by the state department where, you know, the warlords are told that they have to behave now and, you know, they have to stop terrorizing their own populations. They have to insure security so that NGOs and U.N. agencies can go in and begin the task of development.

BLITZER: One of those warlords, Rashid Dostum, we heard Nic Robertson, our reporter, report about him. But you write about him the first time you met him in your best-seller, "Taliban: Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia." That was a best- seller for many weeks. But let me read, put up on the screen, what you write about your encounter with Rashid Dostum.

You write this: "He wielded power ruthlessly. The first time I arrived at the fort to meet Dostum, there were blood stains and pieces of flesh in the muddy courtyard. I innocently asked the guards if a goat had been slaughtered. They told me that an hour earlier, Dostum had punished a soldier for stealing. The man had been tied to the tracks of a Russian-made tank, which then drove around the courtyard crushing his body into mincemeat, as the garrison and Dostum watched."

Now, is this a man that Hamid Karzai, he's the deputy defense minister ostensibly of Afghanistan, is this a man who is an ally potentially of Hamid Karzai and the U.S.?

RASHID: Well, you know, I mean, there are many Dostums. And many of these warlords have carried out horrendous acts of violence and murder against the Afghan population. I mean, Dostum, you know, he has been, if you like, tamed a lot. He has been in exile in Turkey. He has learned languages. He's cooperating very closely. If you start bringing up records right now of the warlords, there wouldn't be a single clean person in Afghanistan.

BLITZER: What about the opportunity of the al Qaeda to regroup, the Taliban fighters and to pose a significant threat to the government, the interim government in Afghanistan as well as to the U.S. and other international troops who are there?

RASHID: Well, I think, you know, there are -- I mean, there are two issues, really. One is that, yes, there are pockets of Taliban in eastern and southern Afghanistan backed by al Qaeda remnants who have stayed behind. They do pose a threat.

But again, I think, you know, these pockets cover very little territory of the whole territory of Afghanistan. So, we are not talking about their capability to launch any kind of major attack or offensive.

The other danger, of course, is terrorism. Taliban and al Qaeda can launch terrorist attacks inside Kabul city, in other major cities where, for example, there are aid foreigners working for aid agencies, where there are British troops keeping the peace in Kabul. I think that's one of the big fears, that, for example, if the king comes back, his security is going to be very, very important. He wants to tour the country. His -- some of his staff have requested that foreign troops, ISAF, the peacekeeping troops, in fact, accompany him around the country. So, all of these are very sensitive issues. I mean, the danger of terrorism inside Kabul is very real.

BLITZER: What is your assessment of the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden, if, in fact, he is alive?

RASHID: Well, Wolf, who knows. I mean, U.S. intelligence doesn't seem to know, so I'm hardly in a position to know. But, you know, I think a lot of the Afghans feel, who I spoke to in Kabul, a lot of them felt that he had left the country. They didn't think that bin Laden was there.

And, by and large, I think the majority of Arab fighters even who have survived the bombing and the attacks have also left the country. Even in this Operation Anaconda recently, I don't think there was a very large Arab contingent. There were other foreigners, central Asians, Uzbeks, Chechens, Pakistanis, but there were very, very few Arabs. I think most of them have slipped out back possibly to the Middle East where bin Laden may well be now.

BLITZER: Our mutual friend, Tom Friedman, writing in the "New York Times" this week said this about Afghanistan: "The only way to make the new Afghanistan a slightly better place than the old one is with a U.S. troop presence that will bolster the government and serve as the anchor for a wider peacekeeping force manned by our allies."

RASHID: Well, I think he is very right. I mean, I think all -- many countries in Europe are waiting for is a nod from the U.S. If the U.S. would just nod, that it supports the idea of peacekeeping troops in other cities, I think a lot of countries would carry through.

The other big issue, of course, is funding peacekeeping forces. There's no mechanism in place at the moment. At the moment, the peacekeeping forces in Kabul are funding themselves; 19 countries are there with 5,000 troops. Every country is providing its own money. What is needed is some kind of international funding mechanism whereby, for example, poorer Muslim countries could contribute with manpower, but they would need funding, which, of course, is a big issue with Turkey right now.

BLITZER: We have another e-mail from Dennis in Montana who asked this question of you: "Why isn't the interim government of Hamid Karzai making a move to demilitarize Afghanistan?" In other words, take the guns away from everybody?

RASHID: Well, the whole issue of demobilization and disarming the population is linked very closely to economic development. You cannot demob a soldier unless you give him some kind of package whereby he can go back to his farm, he has seed, he has fertilizer, he has tools. He can start something else, or you teach him some skill.

The problem is you cannot by fear or by order just order these warlords to disarm , you know, there's nothing in it for these soldiers. Until there is going to be some of this money available whereby the agencies, the U.N. agencies, the NGOs can offer these soldiers something to go back home to.

BLITZER: All right. Stand by. We have to take a quick break. We have a lot more to talk about, including more e-mail when we come back. I will also ask Ahmed Rashid about the next steps in the war on terrorism and what's likely to happen in his home country of Pakistan. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We're continuing our conversation with Ahmed Rashid. He's the author of the best-selling books, "Taliban" and hopefully for you the new best-seller, "Jihad." And we'll get to that in just a moment.

On this day, the process against Omar Saeed Sheikh, the accused kidnapper of the American journalist, Daniel Pearl, began. The trial expected to begin very, very soon. Do you think that the Pakistani authorities have this situation completely under control, or other suspects still at large?

RASHID: I think there are other suspects still at large. There seems to have been a plot to kill Danny Pearl involving many, many people and we don't know exactly who. And even those who have been caught have been spinning a lot of different stories to the police and the authorities, confusing the whole issue.

BLITZER: And do you think it's possible that they had some support with some renegade elements of President Musharraf's government?

RASHID: Well, you know, I think that is probably very unlikely, but, you know, I mean, the danger is that a lot of these militant Islamic groups, especially those who have been fighting in Kashmir, used to have very close links with the intelligence operators of old. But I don't think that anyone now is giving any kind of support to these groups because...

BLITZER: I was going to say, were you surprised that the state department today suggested that all non-essential U.S. personnel, family members of American diplomats in Pakistan at the embassy and the consulates, leave because of the security dangers?

RASHID: Well, it's not surprising given what's been happening and the terrorist attacks in Islamabad and in Karachi. And people expect more because I think these militant groups are really trying to make a point now to try and embarrass the Musharraf government as much as possible.

BLITZER: So you think that church attack last Sunday may just be the beginning?

RASHID: Yes. I think there will be attacks against Pakistanis. I mean, what has not been, for example, played out is that seven doctors belonging to the Shi'a faith have been gunned down in Karachi, leading to a large exodus of professionals and doctors from Karachi. There's a lot of fear in Karachi. So I think not just foreigners may be targeted, but I think prominent Pakistanis will probably be targeted.

BLITZER: You know, in your new book, "Jihad: the Rise of Militant Islam in Central Asia", I want to read an excerpt, because you write this: "The new jihadi groups have no economic manifesto, no plan for better governance and the building of political institutions, and no blueprint for creating democratic participation in the decision making process of their future Islamic states."

So, what's the attraction?

RASHID: Well, you know, the attraction is basically a desire to overthrow existing regimes in the Muslim world, whether it's in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or Central Asia. As I say, they have nothing to replace these regimes with, which is -- and this has been one of the kind of major tragedies of the Islamic fundamentalist movement in the '90s that compared to say earlier movements, where they had blueprints for Islamic economics and education and treatment of women and other such issues, these new jihadi groups have absolutely nothing to offer the people, which is why they're so secretive. I mean, the Taliban, bin Laden, you know, they operate clandestinely. They have no open agendas. They don't talk to even the people that they want to convince.

BLITZER: I was going to put up on our map some of these regimes in Central Asia that potentially could be endangered by these so- called jihadi groups, whether, of course, in Afghanistan or Pakistan, but also Turkmenistan, the former Soviet republics of Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan. All of these countries potentially are in danger, right?

RASHID: Well, they are because not only is there a regrouping going on of the Taliban and al Qaeda, but there is a regrouping going on of the Islamic movement of Uzbekistan, which is the most potent militant group in Central Asia. Thousands of them fought for the Taliban and al Qaeda. Many were killed in the bombing. Many were involved in Operation Anaconda, in fact, fighting U.S. troops.

Some of their leaders are back on the border between Afghanistan and Central Asia. Their networks in Central Asia remain intact, even though, you know, their finances and a lot of their bases in Afghanistan have been destroyed. The networks in Central Asia are still active. And now with U.S. troops in Central Asia, U.S. bases in three of the Central Asian countries, what they're organizing on is basically going to be an anti-American campaign in Central Asia.

BLITZER: So the stakes are obviously enormous. Ahmed Rashid, the best-selling author of "Taliban", now "Jihad." Thanks so much for joining us.

RASHID: Thank you.

BLITZER: Appreciate it very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

And when we come back, we will check this hour's top stories. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A postal rate increase tops our "News Alert." The price of a first-class stamp will be going up three cents to 37 cents. The increase could come as soon as June 30. One reason for the increase: the postal service spent hundreds of millions of dollars dealing with the anthrax problem.

President Bush is in Monterrey, Mexico attending a U.N. summit on world poverty. He told the meeting that money alone would not solve the problem, but he proposed that the U.S. spend an additional $5 billion a year on aid. We will have much more when the president and the Mexican President, Vicente Fox, hold a news conference in about half an hour. We'll take that event live.

This important note, Sunday on "LATE EDITION", my special guest will be the vice president of the United States, Dick Cheney. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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