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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Is Afghanistan Still Dangerous for Exiled King?; What Was Happening in Secret al Qaeda Workshops?

Aired March 25, 2002 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDREA KOPPEL, GUEST HOST: Tonight on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, THE WAR ROOM: He's been gone for decades, but Afghanistan may still be too dangerous for its exiled king.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: Some of the swabs that we took have turned out positive for anthrax.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: What was going on in al Qaeda's secret workshops?

Can the U.S. win Arab support for military action against Iraq by getting Israel to ease up on Yasser Arafat? We'll go to Kabul, the Pentagon and Beirut. And we'll speak live with Geoffrey Kemp, a top national security aide in the Reagan White House; and Samuel Lewis, a former U.S. ambassador to Israel as we go into THE WAR ROOM.

Good evening. I'm Andrea Koppel reporting tonight from Washington. Wolf Blitzer is off. We'll get to our guests and the Middle East crisis shortly, but first to Afghanistan, where security and stability are elusive goals and where an elusive foe has again shown evidence of its deadly intent.

He was forced into exile nearly 30 years ago, but while the Soviets and the Taliban have since been ousted, Afghans will have to keep waiting for the return of their former king. Let's go live now to senior international correspondent Walter Rodgers, who is on the scene right now in Kabul, Afghanistan. Good evening, Walter.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Andrea. The former king of Afghanistan, Zahir Shah, was supposed to have returned to a triumphant homecoming here in Kabul. But, again, and this is the second time his return has had to be postponed. There's been considerable confusion about the timetable for the former king's return. Remember, he is returning only as a father figure and a symbol of national unity to try to help patch this country together again. But again, he has not been able to do it.

A Western diplomatic source here told me one of the reasons, of course, is that the Afghan government itself has only been on its feet three months and thus is badly disorganized, could not put together all the arrangements necessary to secure the king's entourage. Also, and perhaps more importantly, the safety factor in this country.

Now, the king will be returning to a mansion which has been prepared for him. But as recently as yesterday, we still saw people working on the roof of that mansion. And a Western security analyst who was with me there at the time looked at the mansion, which is being prepared for King Zahir Shah and said quite simply, this place is not safe. It's very porous, anyone could attack it with a rocket- propelled grenade. And, of course, further than that, this country is awash in guns, more than a million kalashnikovs out there. So there is great concern for the king's safety, despite relative calm here in the capital of Kabul -- Andrea.

KOPPEL: So, Walter, how do you resolve the security problem then? Is this something for the Afghan people, Hamid Karzai and his folks to resolve or should the international community be doing more?

RODGERS: Well, the interim prime minister, Mr. Karzai, has virtually told Western diplomats he cannot do it by himself. He has been pleading with the United States and other Western countries to send more troops. Presently, the peacekeepers in Afghanistan are confined to the capital itself. Indeed, Mr. Karzai may be little more than the prime minister of Kabul and the various warlords around the country control the outer areas of the city, or outer areas of the country.

Mr. Karzai himself, of course, wants more Western peacekeepers to disperse around the countryside, to stabilize the country, perhaps to lean on the warlords to prevent them from leaning too much on the government here. The West, the United States and others, say that is not going to happen. So, again, have you the interim prime minister, Mr. Karzai, basically being prime minister of the capital here and a short corridor north of the city for 50 or 100 miles, little more than that. And the rest of Afghanistan, which is a country virtually the size of Texas, huge, has little law and order, and it's not very safe out there in most places outside the capital -- Andrea.

KOPPEL: And I guess that leaves the question up in the air as to when the Afghan king might be able to return to Afghanistan. Walter Rodgers in Kabul, thank you very much.

And tonight on LIVE FROM AFGHANISTAN, Nic Robertson will be live from the region of the Bamiyan buddhas. That's at 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.

While Osama bin Laden's terrorists may have been dislodged from most of their Afghan strongholds, they've left behind chilling signs in their interests of weapons of mass destruction. Let's go live now to CNN military affairs correspondent Jamie McIntyre who is at the Pentagon -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Andrea, the U.S. military is continuing to uncover evidence that Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network was working hard to manufacture deadly biological weapons. But so far, they found no evidence it ever succeeded.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): At last count, the U.S. military has examined at least 60 separate sites in Afghanistan where it appears al Qaeda forces were working to make killer germs, deadly poisons or radiological dirty bombs. So far, no actual weapons nor any active chemical or biological agents have been found. But there have been some worrisome discoveries.

MYERS: In five or six cases, some of the swabs that we took have turned out positive for anthrax and I think ricin. But the caveat to that is that they're such minute amounts that the anthrax could be naturally occurring and the ricin could be because of the castor being -- it could be that.

MCINTYRE: Ricin is one of the most poisonous, naturally occurring substances known. It comes from the seeds of the castor bean plant. And a facility found near Kandahar recently had all the earmarks of an anthrax laboratory in the making.

MYERS: We did find some equipment that was indicative of perhaps manufacturing anthrax. Not all of the equipment you would need was there, but there was some of the equipment. It looked like some of it had been tried to have been destroyed.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. military continues to search for remaining Taliban and al Qaeda forces while guarding against guerrilla-style attacks.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There's no question in my mind but that the remaining al Qaeda and Taliban would like very much to reconstitute and conduct terrorist operations in the country to attack U.S. and U.S. interests and government interests and coalition interests and see if they can't chase everyone out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (on camera): The Pentagon says U.S. troops will not leave Afghanistan until all top al Qaeda and Taliban leaders have either been captured or killed. But the U.S. military is planning to devote up to 150 special forces to help train and equip a national Afghan army in order to provide security once international troops do depart -- Andrea.

KOPPEL: Jamie, I'd like to switch topics quickly and ask you about another subject related to the Pentagon, and that is, the fate of Lieutenant Commander Michael Scott Speicher. Over the weekend, the Iraqis seemed to be reaching out saying that another U.S. delegation could come there if it wanted to. What is the reaction from the Pentagon today?

MCINTYRE: Well, that overture from Iraq or apparent overture from Iraq seems to have been lost in the mail. The U.S. government says it's received no official communication from Iraq. However, the U.S. remains interested in closing the case on Lieutenant Commander Speicher, who was lost in the first day of the Persian Gulf War more than 11 years ago. The U.S. believes he survived the crash of his aircraft and was subsequently captured. They do not believe he's probably alive today, although they can't foreclose that possibility. They do think Iraq holds the answer to what happened to Speicher and they would like to get some answers. At this point though, they're awaiting to see if there really is an official overture from the Iraqi government before formulating a response.

KOPPEL: OK. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you so much.

Well, Arab leaders are preparing to meet in Beirut, but there may be one very important no-show, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Whether or not he can attend is up to Israel. Some say a lot is riding on his attendance. More now from our Beirut bureau chief, Brent Sadler.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN BEIRUT BUREAU CHIEF (on camera): While Arab foreign ministers have been working out the fine-print details of a Saudi initiative proposed last month, expected to be adopted by Arab heads of state during a crucial summit here which starts on Wednesday. It offers Arab relations with Israel in exchange for an Israeli withdrawal from land occupied since 1967.

But there is growing pressure on Arab leaders from within their own countries to throw more weight behind the Palestinian arms struggle against Israel, even as they try to reach unanimous agreement on the Saudi peace proposal. Already from the Arabs themselves, there's been a dire warning: unless there's justice and peace in the Middle East, the region faces total anarchy and confrontation. That bleak assessment came from the secretary-general of the Arab League, Amre Moussa, to foreign ministers.

One of the most intriguing issues of the upcoming summit is the drama surrounding the possible appearance here of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat. Even without Israeli clearance to attend the summit though, he will still be able to address Arab leaders, using a teleconference system, a system already installed just in case.

Brent Sadler, CNN, Beirut.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: So should Israel let Yasser Arafat attend the Arab Summit? Would that encourage Arab leaders to go along with a U.S. move against Iraq? Joining me in THE WAR ROOM, Geoffrey Kemp of the Nixon Center, formerly a senior national security aide in the Reagan White House; and Samuel Lewis, a diplomat for three decades. He spent eight of those years as U.S. ambassador to Israel. Remember, you can e-mail your WAR ROOM questions to cnn.com/wolf.

Ambassador Lewis, I'd like to begin with you. And see, if the U.S. as it is, pressuring Israel to let Yasser Arafat go to attend this summit, irrespective of whether or not there is a cease-fire, is this sending the wrong message? SAMUEL LEWIS, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: It's certainly sending an interesting message: leave Sharon with a no-win situation to respond to. And it puts the onus on him and not on us because Dick Cheney has decided not to meet with him ahead of time and leave it up to Sharon. I think Sharon can't be in a more awkward situation than he's been on this decision. He'll probably have to agree.

KOPPEL: Geoffrey Kemp, is this in effect saying to Arafat, you don't need to behave in order to get what you want?

GEOFFREY KEMP, THE NIXON CENTER: Well, up to a point it is. But the real test will be if Arafat goes to Beirut, how will he behave there, because then the onus will be off Sharon, off the administration and on the Arabs, and how they then behave at that summit, whether or not they pass the Abdullah plan or whether they add on all sorts of resolutions about the right of return, which Arafat might insist on, which will be a disaster, then the onus will be on the Arabs and Arafat. So it's probably wise for Sharon to let him go.

KOPPEL: But there have got to be some downsides to this. Ambassador Lewis?

LEWIS: Well, there's a huge downside. He will continue to reinforce his plummeting standing in the political arena in Israel because the right wing, which brought him to power, now feels he's become too soft and totally conciliatory toward the United States, in particular, and Arafat in even more particular.

And he has also the tough question, do you let him back? Because the odds are very high that if he gets there, he'll make a very defiant kind of speech. He'll do a lot of things that will really make the Israelis -- put the Israelis' tees on edge. And there probably will be some kind of terror event while the conference is going on. In that instance, I think it's only 50/50 at best that you'll see Arafat back in Palestine.

KOPPEL: Geoffrey, what about the peace process? What are the downsides with respect to making Yasser Arafat abide by a cease-fire which he has yet to do?

KEMP: There is no peace process. What we're talking about here is crisis stabilization. The best that can come out of these meetings is that you get a pause, a cease-fire that General Zinni is trying to negotiate and then get back to some sort of political negotiations. But we're a long way off from Camp David and the dream that Bill Clinton had before he left office. That is way, way in the background and it will be many, many months, if not years, before we get back to that point.

KOPPEL: Gentlemen, I'd like to read to you from an editorial from Sunday's "Washington Post" and have you respond to it. It says, "the administration must also avoid falling into the trap of accepting an Israeli/Palestinian settlement as a precondition to action. Linking progress there to Iraq might even worsen the already dim prospects for a settlement, since Saddam Hussein enjoys strong support among the Palestinians and their leaders." Is it possible to separate the two?

LEWIS: Not very easily. You know, I think much of all this diplomatic activity is going to end up producing absolutely nothing and there's going to be a whole lot more terror and many more people killed before you get to the point where a cease-fire might conceivably hold for a while and you can get back to some kind of negotiations.

And the Iraq issue, in a way, is a different issue. It plays back into our policies. It doesn't play that much into Palestine.

KOPPEL: Do you buy that, Geoffrey Kemp?

KEMP: Well, I would go even further. I would say it's not just Iraq, it's now Iran that has an interest in stirring up trouble on the West Bank, in Gaza, in Lebanon, to keep the United States preoccupied with the Arab/Israeli conflict and deflect us from going after Iraq, because the Iranians, although they hate the Iraqis, are terrified that we will succeed in toppling Saddam Hussein and then turn our guns towards Tehran. So they are working against us at this point and time.

Also, as your report suggested earlier this evening, until Afghanistan is stable, we can't really move into another war.

LEWIS: Well, I'm not so sure you can't, but it may not be a good idea. And it's interesting, the Afghan thing is involved here for the Iranians. One reason the Iranians want to stir up Palestine is that they're quite worried about being encircled by American power on the east. They see us setting up American bases in their minds, and a long stay in Afghanistan. That's threatening for them.

KOPPEL: OK. We're going to pick up more on Iraq when we get back right after this break. When we come back, what will it take for the U.S. to rally Arab support for a move against Iraq?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KOPPEL: Welcome back to THE WAR ROOM. Can the U.S. make the case for taking action against Iraq? I'm joined by Geoffrey Kemp of the Nixon Center and former U.S. ambassador to Israel, Samuel Lewis. Gentlemen, I want you to listen to -- this is a sound bite from yesterday's talk shows, Vice President Dick Cheney just back from the Middle East.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a man of great evil, as the president said, and he is actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time. And we think that's cause concern for us and for everybody in the region. And I found during the course of my travels that it is indeed a problem of great concern for our friends out there as well too.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KOPPEL: Samuel Lewis, do you buy the fact that the Arab world is privately telling Dick Cheney that they'd be on board for a U.S. military action against Iraq?

LEWIS: I think they'd all probably like to see him gone. I'm not so sure they're telling Cheney quite in the way that's depicted. And after all, they are really observers in this. They know if he's to be gone, we're going to have to do it. And they would not be too sad, I'm sure, to see it happen, but they don't want to take the heat of upheaval if we don't do it well this time.

KOPPEL: But certainly, we would need the support of the Turks. We would need the support of the Kuwaitis and the Saudis, yes?

KEMP: Well, that would be extremely helpful. Certainly Turkey and Kuwait are essential. But also I would say the Europeans and some U.N. mandate further than what we've already got would provide legitimacy for a very important country, Russia, because I think Russia would come around ultimately not to objecting to us going into Iraq. They can be bought off. They're in Iraq for money and we can make a good deal with them.

The Arabs, I think, if you have the others fall into line, Britain, Russia, Turkey, Kuwait, the U.N. giving some support, I think most of the Arabs will protest that it looks awful but they're not going to do anything to stop us.

KOPPEL: We've been talking about the upcoming Arab summit and the need that the U.S. believes there is in Yasser Arafat attending that. But how much does the U.S. actually have to do on the peace process to win the support of the moderate Arab states for action against Iraq?

LEWIS: They seem to be trying hard and get it off the front pages and off the television tubes by getting some kind of a cease- fire. That's what...

KOPPEL: So that's it?

KEMP: Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's not the newspapers. It's the television. It is the television coverage of supposed Israeli actions, atrocities as they call them, against the Palestinians that inflames the Arab world. If that could stop for a period of time, I think you'd buy yourself a lot of space.

KOPPEL: We have about 30 seconds left, but do you genuinely believe that the Arab street is going to rise up and overthrow these dictators?

LEWIS: No, not right now. But I do think the Arab street worries a number of the leaders a lot, and they're not prepared to handle all the political upheaval easily that can be stimulated.

KEMP: No, they won't. I mean, the Arab street will not overthrow regimes if we go against Iraq. But if you had some catastrophe on the West Bank where the Israeli army moved in, you had refugees fleeing into Jordan, goodness knows what would happen to King Abdullah and his throne. And that is a critical country that we have to worry about.

KOPPEL: Geoffrey Kemp of the Nixon Center, I want to thank you for coming in this evening. And former U.S. ambassador to Israel, Samuel Lewis, thank you as well, sir.

Remember, we want to hear from you. Go to Wolf's Web page at cnn.com/wolf and click on the designation for comments to Wolf and his producers.

Coming up, why government investigators are less than impressed with the nation's airport security, and why you should be concerned. We'll be back in just a moment with a check of the top stories. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KOPPEL: Welcome back.

Ground zero tops this hour's "News Alert." Today, rescue workers recovered another three sets of remains from the ruins of the World Trade Center. They included the bodies of two firefighters. Over the weekend, the remains of 16 people were recovered from the rubble.

An undercover test by government investigators has turned up disturbing airport security lapses, even after September 11. According to "USA Today", investigators were able to get knives past screening checkpoints 70 percent of the time, guns about 30 percent of the time, and fake bombs made it through 60 percent of the time. The White House says the test demonstrates the need for the government to take over airport security.

A member of Congress is raising concerns about the security of the nation's nuclear power plants. Democratic Representative Edward Markey of Massachusetts says the facilities are vulnerable to terrorists and that security is so poor, terrorists could already be secretly working at some reactors. Markey's concerns are spelled out in a new homeland security report. The Nuclear Regulatory Commission refused to comment.

Well, that's all the time we have tonight. I'm Andrea Koppel in for Wolf Blitzer. Please join us again tomorrow night at both 5:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m. Eastern.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. "CROSSFIRE" begins right now.

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