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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Bloodshed at Bethlehem Church; Middle East Conflict Intensifies

Aired April 02, 2002 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDREA KOPPEL, GUEST HOST: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: A developing story, bloodshed at the birthplace of Jesus.

(GUNFIRE)

KOPPEL: After an all-night battle, a Palestinian security headquarters lies in ruins, as Israel takes away hundreds for questioning.

Yasser Arafat is offered a way out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: It is going to be a one- way ticket.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: Not a good idea, in the U.S. view.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: He is recognized, whether we approve of it or not, as the leader of the Palestinian people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: After a quarter-century, a day many thought would never come: A Kennedy cousin goes on trial for the murder of his teenage neighbor.

And if you toss and turn at night, and you're tired and troubled during the day, you are not alone, unless you live out West.

Good afternoon. We begin this evening with breaking news out of Jerusalem, in Bethlehem actually, at the Church of the Nativity. I'm joined on the phone now by Anton Salman, who is inside the Church of the Nativity. Mr. Salman, what can you tell us sir? Good evening.

ANTON SALMAN, HEAD, ANTONIOUS SOCIETY OF BETHLEHEM: Good evening. What I can tell you -- I can tell you that in the hours of the day and in the beginning of the night, there was big talks here and there in Bethlehem concerning the people as they entered to the church. The governor of Bethlehem asked to go inside the church to see what was going on exactly and to stop all the rumors (UNINTELLIGIBLE). So he asked me to be with him. And we entered with difficulty the church because it was surrounded by tanks and Israeli soldiers.

(CROSSTALK)

KOPPEL: Sir, why did you want to go into the Church of the Nativity?

SALMAN: Because we want to know what's going on because there were several rumors talking about difficulties that are facing the priest inside the church (UNINTELLIGIBLE) running from the Israeli soldiers.

So we entered the church and we saw a contrary story. We saw a young man lying on the ground of the church, tired, without food, without water, just waiting for their life, looking for the Church of the Nativity as a safe way and looking that the church will protect them from the killing of the Israeli soldiers that was running after them.

KOPPEL: Anton Salman, who is inside the Church of the Nativity right now in Bethlehem, I thank you, sir, for joining us.

As the fighting rages throughout much of the West Bank, let's begin with an overview of the situation. CNN's Christiane Amanpour joins us this evening live from Jerusalem -- Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Andrea, that situation that you were just talking about from Bethlehem is what is the ongoing operation. We've obviously been asking the Israeli defense force spokesmen about their view of what is going on, and they won't discuss it, saying that they don't discuss operations that are underway.

But certainly as the gentleman was telling you, there were two incidents today, according to those Palestinian sources, in which people did try and did run into the church seeking sanctuary. As you know, there have been -- Bethlehem is now under control of the Israeli army soldiers, tanks, armored vehicles and aircraft and helicopters overhead. There has been quite a lot of gun battles and quite a lot of shooting going on.

From Palestinian sources, we understand that not only is this ongoing situation inside the church, but also as they went, the Israelis house to house there we are told, four people were killed. We are told by Palestinians that they were on the most wanted list. Apparently they were members of the Al Aqsa Martyr Brigade, which is that militant organization that is associated with Yasser Arafat's organization.

Also in Ramallah, there has been a day of more tension, more widening of not only isolation of Yasser Arafat, but also, as you've been reporting over the last 24 hours, the compound of the preventive security chief there had been breached and people had been inside taking refuge. In a complicated set of negotiations, eventually, they all -- most of them came out and are being questioned by the Israelis.

Today, Prime Minister Ariel Sharon of Israel offered what may have been a personal view and his own personal views of what he would like to see done with Yasser Arafat, saying that he can leave if he wants and international visitors could go see him as long as they take him out and keep him out, that he would not be allowed to return. As you can imagine, the Palestinian officials dismissed that as a non- starter -- Andrea.

KOPPEL: Another long night ahead for you and others. Christiane, thank you so much.

Are the Holy Land's holy places in danger? Religious shrines have been occasionally violated over the years, but does the battle in Bethlehem mark a turning point? Joining me now live in New York is Ken Woodward, the religion editor for "Newsweek." Mr. Woodward, how unusual is it to have and, in fact, unprecedented is it, to have a holy site like this taken over by armed gunmen?

KEN WOODWARD, RELIGION EDITOR, "NEWSWEEK": Well, it certainly is unusual, but that particular church, the Church of the Nativity, has been fought over for centuries and centuries and centuries. The building you're looking at right now goes back to the Sixth Century. And a lot of people, Crusaders, Muslims, Christians of all sorts have tried to control that church.

Even inside, you have got the Greek Orthodox, the Armenian Orthodox, the Roman Catholics in the form of the Franciscans competing, if you will, for space. They have got their own chapels. They have got down in the grotto, where it's said that Jesus was born. You have three different altars there. So, it is very divided. It is like the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem. It is very divided.

KOPPEL: Well, that gets to my next question then. Why do you think these individuals, these Palestinians, chose the Church of the Nativity? And they apparently entered there, forced their way in and made the priests there accept their presence.

WOODWARD: Well, I mean, if they were being pursued by Israelis, conceivably, they could be invoking the ancient law of sanctuary. For a long time, churches provided sanctuary for people who were hunted by the society outside. That doesn't seem to be the case. I mean, it can be a very provocative kind of thing to do too. Who, after all, is going to go into a church and, in some sense, desecrate it and -- I don't know, I'm not there. Perhaps they were inviting the Israelis to do that and therefore it provoked the outrage that would certainly follow.

KOPPEL: It certainly seems to be an act of desperation obviously. I understand that it is forbidden, this is probably true of many holy sites, but that it is forbidden to enter the Church of the Holy Sepulcher with weapons?

WOODWARD: Well, it may very well be. It certainly wouldn't be -- certainly wouldn't be unusual at all. You know, Bethlehem has been a place of great unrest for a long, long time. The Muslims for years wanted to build a mosque right next door to the church, cheek by jowl.

And the Christians and the Muslims fought over that for a long time. When John Paul II went to Israel on pilgrimage in March of 2000, the jubilee year, the mosque that he set outdoors in nativity square right out in front of the church was interrupted by the call to prayer from the mosque.

KOPPEL: Well, it is certainly a very different place today. Ken Woodward, of "Newsweek" magazine, I thank you, sir, for joining us.

WOODWARD: You bet.

KOPPEL: We just want to recap for you this developing story: Dozens of armed Palestinians in uniform have reportedly shot their way into Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity, the tradition birthplace of Jesus. The Associated Press cites witnesses as saying they forced priests to grant them sanctuary from Israeli troops who were laying siege outside.

In the West Bank town of Ramallah, where Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat remains confined to his offices, a fierce battle was fought for another key Palestinian compound. CNN's Michael Holmes was there as the smoke cleared.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): After a night of heavy shelling and after dawn, rockets being fired from Israeli helicopters into the preventive security headquarters here in Ramallah, we approached the compound. We gained access to it and a scene of devastation. The buildings in this compound rendered all but useless by this heavy assault.

Israelis say that there was return fire from in the compound, but Israeli military might was quite clear. Three hundred people who were inside were later allowed to leave. They were taken into Israeli custody, taken to an Israeli military facility. There they are being questioned. Israel says those who are not terrorists will be allowed to leave.

At Ramallah hospital today, a U.N. convoy bringing in urgently needed medical supplies including blood. Also the mortuary overflowing, full, and a mass grave prepared over the road in a car park to take some of those bodies and allow room for more bodies to come in.

The curfew that has been imposed here for nearly five days lifted temporarily two and a half-hours. The Palestinians had to leave their homes and buy the essentials. They were saying that they were missing milk, food, water, even bread. And there was a shopping spree in Ramallah for two and a half-hours. Just at dusk, however, warning shots rang out and the curfew was reimposed.

Michael Holmes, CNN, Ramallah.

(END VIDEOTAPE) KOPPEL: Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon says Yasser Arafat is welcome to leave his Ramallah headquarters, as long as he leaves the West Bank, too. Sharon suggested that the Israeli forces surrounding Arafat would be willing to lift their siege long enough for Arafat to get aboard a helicopter and fly into permanent exile.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHARON: I suggested and I told them that if they would like, that we will bring him somewhere or they will come with helicopter and will take him from here. But first of all, I will say that three things. One, I have to first bring it to the cabinet to be approved. Second, he cannot take anyone with him because they are wanted and murderers around him there. And the third thing, it is going to be a one-way ticket. He will not be able to return.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOPPEL: Arafat aides are rejecting the notion of exile. Joining us to discuss today's developments are Alon Pinkas, the consul general for Israel in New York; and Nasser Al-Kidwa, the Palestinian observer to the United Nations.

Mr. Pinkas, I'd like to begin with you and ask you, sir, what Israel hopes to gain by this?

ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL GENERAL: To gain by what, Andrea?

KOPPEL: To gain by offering Yasser Arafat a one-way ticket out of Ramallah, the West Bank?

PINKAS: Well, he seems to think that he's the story. He's mistaken about it. He seems not to do what people expect him to do and he's mistaken about that. And if he still seems to think that he is the story and that the entire operation is about him, we offer him a way out of this mess if he thinks he's being inconvenienced.

But truthfully, it doesn't matter if he stays or if he goes. The thing is very simple. He still has the power. He still has the ability. He still has the tools of power with which he could stand up and do what both Secretary Powell today, or this morning rather, and President Bush yesterday have implored him to do or are expecting him to do, and that is stand up, denounce violence, renounce violence, call for a cold-turkey cease-fire. Lay down your weapons, and then we could perhaps resume a political process.

KOPPEL: Nasser Al-Kidwa, I'd like to ask you what you think the Israelis are up to in the sense that Chairman Arafat has already said publicly that he would prefer to die a martyr than to leave?

NASSER AL-KIDWA, PALESTINIAN OBSERVER TO UNITED NATIONS: I think what we heard today is another mad, Sharonic statement which reflects the thinking of this dangerous man, who obviously believes that Ramallah is part of Israel and that the Palestinian people are his subjects. I mean, this is the crux of the problem we are faced with. I mean, this is the leader of a government who refuses to recognizes the rights of the Palestinian people, who wants to continue their atrocities with their war crimes, with their state terrorism against the Palestinian people, refusing the implementation of security council resolution 402 which could provide a way out of this problem, refusing the implementation of Tenet and Mitchell proposals, and refusing, above all, refusing to accept the principle of ending the Israeli occupation and building the Palestinian state as the real solution of the problem we are faced with.

KOPPEL: Do you think that Chairman Arafat, Mr. Al-Kidwa, would consider any possible offer of exile anywhere in the Arab world or Europe? Is that anything that's on the table?

AL-KIDWA: This is absolutely ludicrous. It doesn't even merit consideration, neither by President Arafat nor by any Palestinians. The Israelis went as far as removing some of the Palestinian police members from West Bank to Gaza, indicating that this is not the same place and maybe preparing the ground for further atrocities, such as moving some Palestinians from the Palestinian territories to the outside world and so on.

This is a going back to the same ugly mentality of occupation which will ensure only taking the whole region down the drain to the abyss. And that requires the serious intervention of the international community, a change in the position of the United States that will ensure, really, the end of this tragedy.

KOPPEL: So what do you want the United States to do, Mr. Pinkas?

PINKAS: What do I want the United States to do is to listen carefully to this endless list of cliches that you have just heard from Mr. Al-Kidwa and decide from themselves if Israel can seriously negotiate with these people.

Look, we don't think for one second that Ramallah is part of Israel nor did we ever nor will we ever. What the big question here, Andrea, is whether or not Ramallah is part of the civilization as we see it. And at this point, it is not. What we expect the United States to do is exactly what the United States is doing, and that is applying pressure on this corrupt regime called the Palestinian Authority to stop the incitement, to stop looking at homicidal maniacs as some kind of role models for an entire society, to lay down their weapons and to seriously think back on why they rejected the offer made to them by then President Clinton and then Prime Minister Barak at Camp David.

Think again if they're not on the verge of making another mistake and not repeat, as they often do or as they frequently do, make every possible mistake, miss every possible opportunity and more or less preclude themselves from being a part of the civilized world.

KOPPEL: Nasser Al-Kidwa, I ask you the same question, sir. What do you want the United States to do? We've heard them mouthing the common expressions recently to abide by Tenet, to abide by Mitchell. But what specific steps do you want the United States the take?

AL-KIDWA: We want to see a more balanced and objective position taken by the U.S. administration so that they can be the honest broker. In light of the current position, frankly, it is getting more and more difficult. What we want to see, the way out of this situation is, one, the immediate implementation of security council resolution 1402, which was supported by the United States. And two, acceptance of the idea of third-party presence in the territory. And three, to take the approach, a comprehensive approach, one which deals with the security dimension as well as the political dimension as well. You can't deal with security alone. You have to indicate to the Palestinian people that there is hope, that there is a future, that their rights could be restored in a peaceful way. And this is what is missing in the current American position.

KOPPEL: Nasser Al-Kidwa, the Palestinian representative to the United Nations, thank you. And, Alon Pinkas, the consul general for Israel in New York, I thank you both.

And for an in-depth look at the situation, join Christiane Amanpour for LIVE FROM JERUSALEM. That's tonight at 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.

Federal authorities are investigating two incidents involving homeland security. One was a breach of security at the airport in Tampa, Florida early this morning. The other, a breach of the air space near the White House. We begin there with CNN's Patty Davis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Frontier Airlines Flight 819 should have banked sharply to the left as it took off Monday evening from Reagan National Airport. Instead, the FAA says Frontier pilots continued straight, just skirting restricted air space over the National Mall, about a mile from the White House. They turned after realizing their mistake.

The Frontier jet is the fifth aircraft since September 11 to stray into the restricted air space. Security experts say it once again highlights the mere seconds it would take for a terrorist bent on a suicide mission by air to target the White House or the U.S. Capitol.

NEIL LIVINGSTONE, GLOBALOPTIONS: Virtually any major government building or national monument is a sitting duck for a terrorist that has taken over an aircraft and wants to fly that aircraft into that target.

DAVIS: That's why federal security officials say pilots who use Reagan must pass extensive background checks, thorough airport screening and receive special training. Sources say an air marshal was on board the Frontier flight.

In addition, combat air patrols are constantly patrolling Washington skies. Ready to shoot down a civilian aircraft is a last resort. The Frontier flight wasn't considered a threat and fighter jets were waved off. A leading congressman on aviation issues says there are significantly fewer incursions into Washington's restricted air space now than before September 11.

REP. JAMES OBERSTAR (D), MINNESOTA: I think the safest air space in the United States right now is the air space over our nation's capital.

DAVIS (on camera): A government source says the same Frontier pilots were diverted to another airport earlier the same day when they failed to identify themselves properly upon approach to Reagan. They have been removed from active duty while the FAA investigates.

Patty Davis, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: Now to Tampa, where authorities are still looking for a man who tried to go through airport security there with a gun. A major terminal was evacuated and hundreds of passengers delayed. At the airport now is Susanna Martinez with our affiliate Bay News 9. Good afternoon Susanna.

SUSANNA MARTINEZ, BAY NEWS 9 CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Andrea. Right now, that man with the bag and the possible weapon is nowhere to be found. And passengers here are still feeling a ripple effect from that security breach that happened here at Tampa International Airport so very early this morning. It was really a chaotic scene.

We'll take you back around 5:30 in the morning. A baggage screener saw what appeared to be a firearm in a bag on the baggage screening screen, and she alerted her supervisor. They obviously thought it was enough of a risk to tell the federal agents that were there. And that is when they decided to shut down air side A.

What they had to do is take passengers off of planes that were already boarded and take their luggage off. So it was quite an ordeal. There were about 3,000 passengers that were kind of displaced through all of this. They had the tough task of bringing them all back from air side A to the terminal here at Tampa International Airport.

Once they made sure that that air side was completely secure, then they had to get everybody back on the shuttle and take them back over and rescreen everybody. We're talking about passengers, employees, pilots, flight attendants, everyone.

So as it stands right now, they still are not sure if that man was possibly carrying a weapon and where he is right now. We spoke with FAA officials out of Atlanta, Georgia. They tell us there is no active search for that person and they do have some video surveillance, but they are not releasing it to the media because they fear the security breach and security reasons would put them at some jeopardy to do so. So right now, they're not sure where he is. They don't know if he was able to get back through, get on a plane and get out of here. We're just not sure.

KOPPEL: Susanna Martinez, thank you so much, reporting tonight from Tampa.

With the crisis in the Middle East, the defense secretary goes on the offensive, launching his most furious criticism yet of countries supporting attacks against Israel.

And a significant day for a Kennedy cousin. Why his trial will take a while.

And later, it's the ultimate in luxury. What a couple of million bucks will get you on this cruise.

But first, the "News Quiz." First, today's "News Quiz": Which vessel currently in operation is the world's longest cruise ship? The Carnival Triumph, the SS Norway, the Disney Magic, or the Voyager of the Seas? We'll have the answer when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KOPPEL: After months of focusing on Afghanistan, the Taliban and al Qaeda, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is shifting some of the rhetoric to the Middle East. CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr has been looking into that and she joins us now. Barbara, he's focusing in particular on several key countries, isn't that right?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: He is, Andrea. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has made it very clear that there's no intention ever of sending U.S. military peacekeepers into the Israeli situation. But that doesn't mean that the Pentagon is not paying very close attention to what's going on there right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld is on the frontline, launching furious criticism of three countries that he says are now actively supporting attacks against Israel.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: States like Iran, Iraq and Syria are inspiring and financing a culture of political murder and suicide bombing.

STARR: Rumsfeld says Iraq's Saddam Hussein is offering large cash payments to families of suicide bombers. Syria continues to allow Hezbollah terrorists to move from Damascus into Lebanon, using the Bekaa Valley to launch attacks. Iran is supporting both Hezbollah and the Palestinians with financial and military assistance.

The Pentagon believes Tehran was deeply involved in the shipment of weapons to the Palestinians earlier this year. The ship, Karin A, was seized by the Israelis, loaded with weapons that U.S. intelligence believes were destined either for the Palestinians or Hezbollah.

Defense officials say all of these countries' activities means a peace agreement with just the Palestinians will no longer be enough to guarantee an end to the violence. And the U.S. still must deal with all three countries in the war on terrorism. Political pressure on Syria remains high, and the U.S. continues to signal possible future military action against Iraq. But officials increasingly believe that Iran is the most dangerous threat, far beyond its support for suicide bombers.

RUMSFELD: There is no question but that al Qaeda have moved in and found sanctuary in Iran. And there is no question but that al Qaeda have moved into Iran and out of Iran, to the south, and dispersed to some other countries.

STARR: A senior military official tells CNN that al Qaeda operatives have taken shelter in Iran with the support of the hard- liners in the government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): Andrea, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld privately is very sober in his current assessment of the region at the moment. His public saber-rattling does very little to hide the fact there are no easy military options at the moment -- Andrea.

KOPPEL: Barbara Starr at the Pentagon. Thanks so much.

STARR: You're welcome.

KOPPEL: Uncle Sam is giving a tax break to dieters. We'll tell you about it.

But first, a Kennedy cousin is on trial. Why it took more than 25 years to get him there.

And why were these guys trading punches at an airport?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KOPPEL: Checking our "News Alert": Fighting continued today between Israeli troops and Palestinians. Palestinian security sources and hospital officials say at least a dozen Palestinians were killed. Many of the deaths occurred near the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem in the West Bank. Bethlehem's governor says many Palestinians have taken refuge in the holy site.

Aides to Yasser Arafat are rejecting an Israeli offer to let the Palestinian leader go into exile. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said troops surrounding Arafat's Ramallah headquarters would let Arafat leave if he got into a helicopter for a one-way ride out of the West Bank. Arafat aides say the Palestinian leader would rather die than go into exile.

The conflict spread to Orly Airport in Paris today when pro- Israeli and pro-Palestinian demonstrators exchanged insults and punches. The scuffle was touched off by the arrival of a French activist who was detained and deported by Israel after he met with Arafat. After a series of attacks on Jewish synagogues, French leaders said today their country must not become a battleground for Middle East passions.

Jury selection is under way in Connecticut in the trial of Michael Skakel. A nephew of the late Robert F. Kennedy, he is accused of killing his neighbor, Martha Moxley, 26 years ago. Both were 15 years old at the time. If convicted, Skakel could face life in prison.

Let's go now to the courthouse in Norwalk, where CNN's Deborah Feyerick is monitoring developments there -- Deborah.

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Andrea, given that jury selection is expected to take a full month, things moved very quickly today, prosecutors and defense agreeing on two jurors.

One of them is an investment banker. The other is a woman who says she works in marketing, something to do with mortgages. Now, Michael Skakel left the court. His lawyer says he considers it a good day -- both the defense and prosecution raring to go.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Cameras rolling, Kennedy cousin Michael Skakel arrived at a Connecticut court to face men and women, some who will decide his fate in the bludgeoning death of Martha Moxley in 1975, more than a quarter-century ago.

Both Skakel and Moxley were 15 years old when she was murdered with a golf club. The judge asked the first round of potential jurors, in light of the press coverage, if they could "set aside preconceived notions and render a verdict based solely on the evidence."

When introduced by the judge, Skakel stood, a tiny smile of greeting, his eyes scanning the group, before taking his seat again at the defense table with his lawyers.

MICKEY SHERMAN, ATTORNEY FOR SKAKEL: We just want people who can be fair to both sides, people who will wait until the end of the case before they make up their mind.

FEYERICK: The case gained national attention: the unsolved murder of a 15-year-old girl in one of Connecticut's most elite communities. Among the few suspects: a nephew of the late presidential candidate Senator Robert Kennedy.

Defense lawyer Mickey Sherman repeatedly asked prospective jurors about the movie "12 Angry Men," the story of a jury who starts off believing a man is guilty only to find him innocent in the end. Prosecutor Jonathan Benedict asked jurors whether they could convict someone based on circumstantial evidence, striking this man after his reply.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Basically, I told him, after 27 years, I thought I would want a little bit more than circumstantial evidence.

FEYERICK: Prosecutors plan on calling 40 witnesses during the five-week trial; Skakel's lawyers about half that many.

Deborah Feyerick CNN, Norwalk, Connecticut. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: Joining us now with insight into the case is Tim Dumas, who has written two books on the subject.

And you were also the former managing editor of "The Greenwich News." Good evening.

I wanted to start by asking you why it has taken 26 years to get this case to begin to go on trial.

TIM DUMAS, AUTHOR: Well, one big reason was because they had the focus on the wrong guy. They had the focus on Michael's brother Tommy originally, and after that a tutor who moved into the Skakel house the night of the murder.

And Michael was essentially sequestered for many of those years in rehabilitation programs. So, he was sort of out of reach of the investigators.

KOPPEL: And so what turned the page there? What kind of evidence surfaced to make a difference?

DUMAS: Well, this is the curious thing about the case.

The Skakels actually did more damage than anybody to their own cause. It was the Skakels who hired a private investigator group called Sutton Associates to presumably dig up more dirt on the tutor. But the investigators did a real good job, it turns out, and very thorough, impartial. And the roads kept on leading back to the Skakel family and Michael Skakel in particular.

KOPPEL: You heard that juror, presumably in the courtroom -- actually, after he left the courtroom, saying that he felt that there was too much circumstantial evidence. How does it appear from your...

DUMAS: Yes, that's -- well, I think part of it is a misunderstanding about what circumstantial evidence is.

Circumstantial cases can be very strong cases. It is not absolutely, critically necessary all the time to have eyewitnesses and DNA evidence and everything else. Sometimes the pieces will fit together just right and you will be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, strictly through circumstantial evidence, what probably happened.

KOPPEL: You were in the courtroom. What was Michael Skakel's demeanor?

DUMAS: Michael seemed really confident today. In the past, he has sometimes seemed angry, swearing under his breath. Other times, he has broken down in tears. But today he seemed, at moments, close to jovial. There were a couple of jurors who weren't picked who he whispered words of thanks and encouragement to afterwards, saying, essentially, "You would have made a really good juror."

KOPPEL: Well, I know you've got weeks ahead of you, Tim Dumas, in Connecticut. Thank you so much for joining us this evening.

DUMAS: Thank you.

KOPPEL: Also in our "Justice Files": a new theory, a new suspect in the almost 50-year-old mystery of who killed Marilyn Sheppard. Her husband, Dr. Sam Sheppard, was convicted and later acquitted. Now a former FBI agent says he believes Air Force Major James Cole (ph) committed the murder during a cross-country crime spree. Cole died in 1974.

In College Park, Maryland, home to the new NCAA basketball champs, some fans face a court date after last night's rowdy celebration. Police say 15 people, none of them students, were arrested for lighting bonfires, smashing windows, and throwing bottles.

In Bloomington, Indiana, about 40 people were hurt when disappointed Hoosier fans spilled into the streets. Couches were torched, street signs knocked over. About 30 people were arrested there.

It sounds like a simple task, yet America is failing at it. Coming up: where getting a good night's sleep is the most difficult. Can you believe it is snowing in April? Well, we will take you to a place where spring hasn't sprung yet. Later: why losing weight may help you save money on your taxes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KOPPEL: Up in the frequently frigid state of Minnesota, winter can have a tendency to overstay its welcome. Well, that appears to be the case this year. Several inches of snow have fallen on the Gopher State, despite all of the calendars open to the page that says April.

Caroline Lowe of CNN affiliate of WCCO has a snow-and-tell report -- Caroline.

CAROLINE LOWE, WCCO REPORTER: It's unbelievable. We had an incredibly warm winter, so nothing really prepared us for this. And it began yesterday, a really cruel April fool's joke. We've had two days of snow, 300 accidents on our freeways in the past two days. A couple people were killed yesterday on the freeways.

Kids are supposed to be on spring break this week. Instead of playing in the ball fields, they are sledding. It's just very, very cold, but people are pretty good spirits. We talked with one woman today who was shoveling in her sandals wearing her Easter outfit. So people are trying to be upbeat about it, but it sure doesn't feel like spring, Andrea.

KOPPEL: Well, you are all known as the hearty Minnesotans, so let's hope spring arrives soon. Caroline Lowe, thanks so much.

As the saying goes, there is nothing like a good night's sleep. But new research shows fewer of us are getting one, on average snoozing less than seven hours a night. Our medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, has been taking his own survey and joins us from CNN Center in Atlanta.

Well, I can tell you, I'm one of those that falls into the other category of getting less than seven hours.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I know. I think I am, too, Andrea.

And we actually decided to do our own informal survey. We will show some of the results of the poll you were talking about. But we are here in the CNN Center here in Atlanta. And we've just got a few folks we are going to ask about their sleep patterns.

Eddie right here -- Eddie, how are you sleeping? Are you sleeping OK? How many hours a night are you getting?

EDDIE: On average, I sleep about seven hours a night.

GUPTA: And is your quality of sleep pretty good, would you say?

EDDIE: Yes, I don't have any complaints. I'm from the San Francisco Bay area. And I'm resting pretty easy.

GUPTA: All right. All right.

Let's just walk around here and check with a few other folks.

Sir, how many hours of the night are you sleeping? Are you sleeping pretty regularly?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I have four kids. So, about six hours a night is a lot for me.

GUPTA: And what about last night? How did you sleep last night?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I slept wonderful, eight hours, because I'm on a business trip.

GUPTA: Right.

Well, I'll tell you, both of these gentlemen are actually above average. About 6.9 hours per night on weekdays is the average Americans get for sleep. And 7.5 hours on weekends is the average they get.

And, interestingly enough, that actually varies across the country. If you actually look at the West, Mr. Wright (ph) we talked to is from California. If you look at the West compared to the Northeast, the numbers are quite a bit different. You actually have 7.2 hours on average in the West compared to 6.7 hours in the Northeast. And on the weekends, that difference is exacerbated even more: 7.7 hours in the West on the weekends, 7.3 in the Northeast -- quite a bit of difference between those two areas of the country, Andrea.

So, those are some of the early results from the poll study.

KOPPEL: So, does it break down at all by sex, whether it be men or women get more? How does that work?

GUPTA: Yes, this is actually fascinating.

As a general rule, women actually get more sleep than men. But, since September 11, they actually asked people about whether or not they feel that they are insomniacs. And, strikingly, 78 percent of women since September 11 said they in fact were having insomnia. That's compared to 59 percent of men. So, a lot more women were having that problem compared to men. Just before September 11, the numbers hovered around 50 percent for both. So, certainly, since September, women have been much more affected in terms of their sleep.

KOPPEL: What about age? I know that some folks who are older say that they don't need as much sleep.

GUPTA: Right. And this is also interesting. What they found is that older people actually end up sleeping the same amount as other people. The difference is that they often sleep in chunks. So, they don't seem to sleep that long at night. Oftentimes, they are taking naps in the day.

They actually probably get less of the best kind of sleep, the sleep researchers tell us -- the best kind of sleep, known as non-REM sleep, where you don't have rapid eye movement. You're completely out, as they say. Your psychological restoration is occurring. Your tissues are being repaired when you sleep, all these sorts of things. They probably get less of that, even though they seem to sleep about the same amount.

KOPPEL: This is sort of an odd question, but what about the less you sleep, the more likely you are to pass away at a younger age? Is there anything to that?

GUPTA: You know, there was a very interesting study out of Buffalo. This was just about a month ago now. And what they said, actually, was that the more you sleep, the higher your mortality. And they were trying to actually link more hours of sleep to increased death rates.

Actually, I had a few concerns about that study. And it sounds like you did, too. But a lot of people who end up sleeping a lot oftentimes have other medical problems, such as heart disease, such as sleep apnea, such as diabetes. So, in fact, it's the fact that they have those problems that is causing them to sleep more. And, thus, they are dying early, not so much that sleep itself leads to increased death rates.

KOPPEL: OK, I can't let you go without asking you: How many hours of sleep do you get a night?

GUPTA: Well, I tell you, I should probably get more. But I typically sleep about 5.5, six hours a night, trying to stay busy. And on the weekends, I usually sleep in a little bit more than that. KOPPEL: Yes, me too. Thanks so much, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joining us from Atlanta.

Our "Web Question of the Day": "How many hours of sleep you do get in a night?" Vote at CNN.com/Wolf. While you're there, let us know what you are thinking. There is a "Click Here" icon on the left side of Wolf's Web page. Send us your comments and we will read some of them on the air each day.

A tax tip: The new tax man now says you can claim certain diets as a medical deduction if it is under a doctor's supervision. The IRS recognizes obesity as an accepted disease. Not deductible, though, is the amount you spend on diet foods. The IRS figures you have to eat no matter what. The ruling applies to tax returns as far back as 1998.

How would you like to buy a bedroom on a floating condo? The prices are steep, but the rich are saving in other ways. We will tell you how.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KOPPEL: Earlier we asked: Which vessel currently in operation is the world's longest cruise ship: the Carnival Triumph, the SS Norway, the Disney Magic, or the Voyager of the Seas? The answer is the SS Norway, measures 1,035 feet. Next year, the Queen Mary II will set sail, eclipsing the SS Norway as the world's longest ship. It will be almost 100 feet longer than the current record holder.

Most modern cruise ships are virtual floating cities, complete with restaurants, shops, theaters and even casinos. Now there's a new luxury liner with one more amenity: permanent homes. Oceangoing homes aren't cheap, of course, but many residents can use their waterlogged addresses to avoid taxes.

CNN's Richard Quest has decided to take a look in Hamburg, Germany.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD QUEST, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Imagine a home where the view changes almost every day of the year. Now imagine living aboard the world's latest luxury liner, the World, because that's what over 110 people are buying into when they buy one of the apartments on board.

With prices from $2.3 million to $7.5 million, these are the homes for the world's seriously rich. And this is the itinerary that will tell them where they are going. There's some 250 destinations over the next 12 months. And it's a veritable who's-who or what's- where of the world's beauty destinations: Brazil for Carnival, the coast lines of the United States, Chile. Or how about down to Monte Carlo? And, in all these places, you will be there in time for the big event: the Monaco Grand Prix; the film festival in Cannes.

Overall, the people who have bought into this are buying into a dream. And many of them have had to have leaps of faith. It took five years to get this thing off the drawing board. And, when all is said and done, well, you have still got to pay your annual maintenance charges. And that can be up to $100,000 a year.

So, perhaps, for the likes of me, the only way we get on board, well, it'll be in one of the guest suites. And then you better be prepared to pay $1,000 a day -- Andrea, back to you with the checkbook.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: I'm not going to be writing a check anytime soon.

Here's some of today's other international news: The body of Britain's queen mother has been moved to London. The coffin will remain in the Chapel of St. James Palace until Friday when it will be taken to Westminster Hall and the Houses of Parliament. Her funeral will be held April 9 at Westminster Abbey.

Two men convicted in connection with a deadly Dutch fireworks explosion two years ago have been freed. A court in the Netherlands convicted the men of importing and selling illegal fireworks and violating a safety code. But because the men had already spent three months in jail awaiting trial, they have been released from custody.

Let's go to New York now and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE," which begins at the top of the hour -- Lou, what do you have for us tonight?

LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Andrea, thank you.

Yasser Arafat under siege tonight: We will have the latest for you from the Middle East. Senator George Mitchell will be here to talk about the prospects for ending this conflict. Also an important victory for the station's television broadcasters, but it could mean a very big defeat for viewers. And money in politics: We know about the millions spent by Enron and Andersen lobbying Congress, but wait until you see how much the accounting industry itself spent to buy influence in Washington.

That story and a lot more coming up in the next hour -- back to you, Andrea.

KOPPEL: Look forward to it. Thanks, Lou.

In a moment, the result of our "Web "Question of the Day": "How many hours of sleep do you get in a night?" And your thoughts on Israel's exile offer to Yasser Arafat.

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KOPPEL: This just in to CNN: A Navy pilot was killed and three other flyers were injured a couple of hours ago in a flight training accident at the Naval air station at Patuxent River, Maryland, that according to the Navy. Details on the accident aren't clear, but officials say it involved two contractor-owned Extra 300Ls. Our "Web Question of the Day": "How many hours of sleep do you get in a night?" Most of you said six hours. The runner-up was seven hours. Remember, this poll is not scientific.

Time to hear from you: Debate rages over the status of Yasser Arafat.

Larry writes: "Whether it is through martyrdom or exile, Arafat needs to be silenced. With Arafat removed, the peace process may have a chance to move forward."

But Joe says: "Sharon offering Arafat exile is a travesty. Sharon should be given a one-way ticket. He seems to have no interest in the actual settling of the conflict."

And that's all we have left tonight. I'm Andrea Koppel, in for Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.

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