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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Americans Evacuate Bethlehem; Arab Anger Boils Over
Aired April 03, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE SNOW, GUEST HOST: Now, on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, Americans evacuate Bethlehem as Israel lays siege to more Palestinian towns.
A terrorist invoice? Palestinians call it a forgery. Israel calls it a direct link between Yasser Arafat and suicide attacks.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a specific request there for the money to make bombs, for the chemical components.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Arab anger boils over.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Occupation is the basis of the problem. It must be terminated immediately.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Serious diplomatic fallout for Israel, while the U.S. also takes heat.
A treasure trove of intelligence seized along with an al Qaeda leader.
And, how rude! A new survey says we don't get any respect or give any. Have we always been this way?
I'm Kate Snow in Washington tonight for Wolf Blitzer. Topping our "News Alert": An Israeli operation intensifies as Americans evacuate a biblical city.
Israeli forces have rolled into more Palestinian towns, including Nablus, the largest West Bank city, where gunmen are fighting on barricaded streets. Bethlehem remains a battleground. Some U.S. citizens have been escorted out of harm's way, while many Palestinians, including armed fighters, are holed up in the ancient Church of the Nativity, ringed by tanks.
In Ramallah, where Yasser Arafat remains trapped in his compound, Israeli police fired tear gas at a crowd of more than 2,000 activists -- Jews and Arabs -- who sought to deliver humanitarian supplies to the besieged town.
A smoking gun? Israel says documents seized from Yasser Arafat's headquarters link his Palestinian Authority to a group which has carried out recent suicide attacks. The records are said to involve bombmaking expenses for the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades. Palestinians say the documents are a forgery.
Amid mounting fury over the Israeli military campaign, the first Arab nation to make peace with Israel has taken action. Egypt says it will sharply reduce its contacts with Israel. The move came after an estimated one million demonstrators took to the streets in Egypt.
The war in the West Bank has escalated sharply, with Israeli tanks sweeping into more areas, including Nablus, a city of close to 200,000 people. At the same time, Israel says it has evidence of the Palestinian Authority's complicity in terror attacks. Let's go live to CNN's Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem, who has new information at this hour -- Christiane.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kate, what the Israeli military offensive is doing is continuing its any place, any where, any time policy of reoccupying many of those towns and villages in the West Bank. Nablus, as you say, is the latest one. And the latest information we have from the security official there, the top security official, Palestinian, is that he says something like 400 Israeli tanks, armored vehicles, jeeps and other vehicles have moved into that city.
There's also reported pitched battles between Palestinian gunmen, who are trying with their machine guns to hold off the Israeli tanks, and reports that there are tanks masked around one of the refugee camps there. Israel has long said that many of the suicide bombers have come from Nablus and refugee camps are, according to Israel, some of the hotbeds of militant activity.
We have a report that there have been some tank shells fired in that refugee area, and that at least one woman in a house has been killed. We need to verify that. It's hard to get any information from the Israeli Defense Forces while operations are ongoing because they don't comment while operations are ongoing.
In the meantime, also, as you mentioned, those Americans and other foreign nationals being evacuated from Bethlehem, where pitch battles continue. And the Israelis today, and yesterday indeed, started to invite foreign journalists to look at what they called was the first documented proof that Yasser Arafat and his organization is actually in league and sponsoring terrorism. They showed a document that they said was taken from Yasser Arafat's compound in Ramallah during the offensive there. It was apparently dated September of last year. And in English, at the top of that document, it says Al Aqsa Martyrs troops. This is the militant organization allied with Arafat's Fatah organization and has been responsible and has claimed many of the suicide bombings.
The text that was in Arabic, according to the Israeli intelligence officials who briefed reporters, apparently was directed at the Palestinian procurement and finance official asking for money to help build and to pay for bombs. The Palestinians have denied any link to that document, calling it a forgery and saying that it was just a series, one of a series of Israeli forgeries. But that is what the Israelis are claiming, that they may even have further documents once they go through many of the boxes that they have brought out, they say, from Arafat's compound -- Kate.
SNOW: Christiane Amanpour in Jerusalem tonight. Thank you.
The ancient town of Bethlehem, as Christiane mentioned, remains a battleground. This evening, armored vehicles have evacuated an international group of pro-Palestinian activists who had asked to be rescued. The group included nine Americans.
Joining us now by phone from Bethlehem is Sean Riordan of the International Solidarity Movement. Mr. Riordan, thanks for being with us tonight. Can you tell us about some of your colleagues? I understand you know some of those who were evacuated. Are they OK now and safe?
SEAN RIORDAN, INTERNATIONAL SOLIDARITY MOVEMENT: Right. As we've heard here at the International Solidarity Movement media office, they all reached Jerusalem safely and are being extremely helpful in attempting to disseminate our information and what we feel is most important for the world to know about what's happening here to the world.
SNOW: And they had asked to be evacuated? Had they called for help?
RIORDAN: Right. They specifically had to ask for help. In fact, the same convoy that got them out this afternoon and evening could not get through the checkpoints into the military zone last night because the IDF was not comfortable having them drive through, given the extent of the firefights in the area last night.
SNOW: You've stayed behind and, as I understand it, you've been holed up in your office there for about 48 hours now. Have you been able to get out at all? What have you seen from your window?
RIORDAN: Well, we've seen quite a bit from our window. First of all, no, I haven't been outside in 48 hours. There was a brief lift of the curfew this afternoon, but this is never a guarantee of safety as during the lifted curfew in Ramallah yesterday, we had heard that a young Palestinian boy was shot while attempting to buy groceries for his parents.
What we can see from here, however, is frequently, tanks rumble by, ATCs rumble by. We are also at the crossroads of the main street that links Bethlehem and Beit Jalla, which is another occupied town adjacent to Bethlehem.
SNOW: Are you able to get food and water?
RIORDAN: Right. We were able to get food today during the lift of the curfew, which really lifted our spirits because we had been living off of crackers and one tea bag for about eight hours before that.
SNOW: OK. Sean Riordan, on the phone from Bethlehem, thanks for being with us tonight and giving us a little sense of what things are like there. Appreciate the phone call.
RIORDAN: Thank you. Bye.
SNOW: Sure.
Conditions in the Middle East are getting too hot for the University of California. Twenty-seven UC students are enrolled in programs in Israel, but the university is now telling them to come back home to the U.S. It is also putting plans for fall programs in Israel on hold. Other U.S. universities also have canceled programs in Israel.
CNN's Michael Holmes has been on the scene in Ramallah today, since the early hours of the Israeli offensive. He explains now the difficulties of news coverage in a war zone.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Welcome to Ramatan (ph) studios in Ramallah. This is where we stand to do those live shots you see from time to time. We have the window close. The view over Ramallah isn't there tonight because, quite simply, it's not too safe. There is sniper activity in the area, and when that happens, we keep it closed.
Look around behind the scenes. You can see how life is here. We have, always at the ready, a flak jacket for when we stand in front of those windows. Asrap (ph) here is sleeping and as we try to get sleep whenever we can. You can see beds all around where we are sleeping on the studio floor.
And the very staff of Ramatan (ph) have been keeping us looked after for the last five days. Very primitive conditions though when it comes to staying here every day and every night. This is the studio where we are broadcasting from, the control room if you'd like. It is a humble control room compared to most around the world. But at this moment, virtually every television network in the world that is represented here in Ramallah is working out of here.
Let's go out into the corridor and just see the layout here. Come with us and I'll show you how we live. This is the kitchen area. You can see here various correspondents from other networks, also our friends from Ramatan who have been cooking and cleaning and feeding us and watering us when there is water. At the moment, there is no water and it's a bit of a rough situation. We have nowhere to shower. We have nowhere to wash at the moment. The bathroom isn't working.
Small office -- every office is a bedroom. Another office. This is Sulsam (ph), one of our producers working on the phone at night. You can see mattresses behind her and against the wall there, if Margaret (ph) can show you that. At night, we have -- we just get the mattresses down. They go on the floor. People grabbing some sleep wherever they can. Another one of our friends from Ramatan studios here.
Come down this corridor and again, every office is a bedroom. This is Kasem (ph). He is running Ramatan studios. This is the man who is looking after us while we're here and doing a great job getting our pictures out to you under very difficult conditions. We were standing in here just a moment ago and a tank shell went off and you kind of get used to it, don't you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it's wonderful time.
HOLMES: Wonderful time. OK. That's a bit of a brief look. That's pretty much all there is. As I say, the bathrooms aren't working. There's no water. We're sleeping on the floors, but no one's going anywhere. Everyone has decided to stay put and try to cover this story as best we can.
This is Michael Holmes at the Ramatan studios in Ramallah.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: Across the Middle East, many Arabs are increasingly angry about Israel's military operations and Washington's low-key response. Egypt has scaled back diplomatic contacts with Israel. And there was an angry demonstration in Lebanon. CNN's Brent Sadler reports from Beirut.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was supposed to be a day of peaceful protest, a venting of anti-Israeli and anti- American sentiment. Students converged on an approach road to the American embassy on the city outskirts, but it quickly turned into a pitched battle after Lebanese security forces blocked their way.
Protesters hurled stones at riot police, who forced them back with tear gas and water cannon. Police had orders to use necessary force to prevent them marching on the embassy. It included this officer firing tear gas canisters directly into the crowd, missing CNN's cameraman, slicing through his jacket. Student leaders said they were enraged that their own police prevented them demonstrating in front of the embassy.
LOAY SAYAH, STUDENT: You were held about a kilometer away, and so this is quite frustrating. I mean, you are there to make a point to the American diplomats. It wasn't about storming the embassy.
SADLER: But, it was supposed to be about protesting Israel's military action against the Palestinians and highlighting a widely- held belief here that U.S. Middle East policy is biased towards Israel.
(on camera): A message obscured by this brief spell of violence and completely overshadowed by armed clashes between Hezbollah guerrillas and Israeli troops in a disputed border zone at the southern tip of Lebanon. (voice-over): Hezbollah has suddenly intensified attacks on Israeli troops occupying the Shebaa Farms at the foot of the Golan Heights. The latest clashes coinciding with international efforts to calm rapidly deteriorating security in the border zone, defined by a so-called United Nations blue line.
STAFFAN DI MISTURA, U.N. ENVOY: You can imagine how serious we consider this at this very moment when the regional situation is particularly tense, when several other tense moments have been seen along the blue line.
SADLER: Syria, which Israel holds directly responsible for Hezbollah attacks on its forces, began a troop redeployment in Lebanon, raising concerns among many observers here that Hezbollah attacks and Israeli retaliation could open a second front in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
Brent Sadler, CNN, Beirut.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SNOW: The situation in Israel is straining relations also between the United States and Egypt. Senior Arab diplomats say Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak has sent President Bush two angry letters in the past week. Diplomats tell CNN both letters warned of serious and dire consequences if Israel does not end its offensive against the Palestinians.
Joining us discuss the viewpoint in the Arab world now is Adel Al-Jubeir, the principal foreign policy adviser to Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah. Thanks so much for being with us this evening.
Let me start on that note. Egypt cut off all but diplomatic ties today with Israel, and you just heard about these angry letters that were sent by President Mubarak to President Bush. Does that indicate growing tension in the region or a growing sentiment in the Arab world against the U.S. and Israel?
ADEL AL-JUBEIR, FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER TO SAUDI CROWN PRINCE: Oh, absolutely, there's growing tension in the region. There's a lot of frustration, a lot of anger at what Prime Minister Sharon is doing in the territories and people are expressing it in different ways. We've seen a lot of demonstrations in the Arab world. The situation, Kate, is very critical and it's very dangerous.
SNOW: We're also seeing angry demonstrations. A few moments ago, we saw some out of Beirut against the U.S. What is the solution here? Where does it end?
AL-JUBEIR: I think the solution lies squarely with the Israeli government. The Israeli government should pull back its forces from Ramallah. They should free Arafat. They should withdraw from the occupied territories. They should make a commitment for peace. The Arab world, last week in Beirut, came up with a historic compromise that withdrawal from the territories in exchange for peace. SNOW: But Israel has said, as you know, that that's not conceivable for them, that that's asking too much and they say they're fighting against terrorists right now.
AL-JUBEIR: I think ultimately when we look at it, this is all about the occupation because the occupation equals humiliation, desperation and it leads people to become suicide bombers. We have to break through the cycle of violence. We can't do it by pointing fingers. We can only do it by looking forward.
SNOW: And you think the Saudi initiative that you talk about from last week is still on the table. This was the idea of Arab countries recognizing Israel in exchange for Israel withdrawing from territories. Do you think that's still really viable at this point?
AL-JUBEIR: Absolutely. It has everything Israel ever dreamed of and it has the whole Arab world behind it. It's very simple. It's very clear: Withdraw from the territories occupied in exchange for normal relations and peace. We haven't heard any indication from the Israeli government that they even accept this in principle.
SNOW: On the subject of Iraq, Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made a statement again today, rather strong words. Take a listen to what he had to say, the U.S. not backing down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Here is an individual who is the head of a country, Iraq, who has probably publicly made a decision to go out and actively promote and finance human sacrifice for families that will have their youngsters kill innocent men, women and children.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Speaking about Saddam Hussein, clearly talking about taking money and paying families of suicide bombers. Do you not agree that that's wrong to do that?
AL-JUBEIR: I think it is always wrong to encourage people to kill innocent human beings on either side. There's no way to justify that. What is also wrong is to lose track of the objective. The objective here is to bring peace. Peace can only come about if there's a withdraw from the occupied territories. And that's what will lead to a reduction in violence.
SNOW: So, short of a solution in the Mideast, would Saudi Arabia support the U.S. going after Saddam Hussein at this point?
AL-JUBEIR: I don't know that the American government is there yet in terms of its policy. I don't know that they've made up their mind and I also don't know what their justification for such action would be. We are convinced that any action, Iraq would have dangerous consequences for the U.S., for the region and for the world.
SNOW: On Saturday, your ambassador to the United States, I believe, met with Colin Powell and also with Condoleezza Rice here in Washington. Can you tell us a little bit about what came out of that meeting and where things stand with the Saudis and the U.S.?
AL-JUBEIR: Our relationship with the U.S. is excellent. We are very concerned about the deteriorating situation in the region. We are very concerned about America not being involved enough to bring an end to the violence and a move towards the peace process. We wanted to make our views known to the United States and we have done so and we have been doing so since.
SNOW: Adel Al-Jubeir, thank you so much, with the Saudi government. Appreciate you being here.
AL-JUBEIR: Thank you.
SNOW: Thank you. We'll have much more on the crisis in the Middle East on LIVE FROM JERUSALEM with Christiane Amanpour. You can see that at 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.
An axis of evil nation is warming up to the United States. Is it Iraq, Iran, or North Korea?
But first, the U.S. defense secretary gets defensive over the handling of a top al Qaeda leader.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMSFELD: I have never been one to willy-nilly, throw away options. I can't conceive why we would not want to hold him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SNOW: Later, the church in crisis: How long have leaders tried to treat their priests? First, this "News Quiz."
What percentage of Americans are Roman Catholic? Ten percent, 14 percent, 23 percent or 32 percent? We'll have the answer coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: The Bush administration is saying relatively little about Abu Zubaydah, the al Qaeda leader arrested in Pakistan last week, but sources tell CNN that information found in safe houses after Zubaydah's arrest is proving very useful. CNN justice correspondent, Kelli Arena, has details.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The captured al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah is talking. And, according to a highly-placed U.S. government source, he is providing some limited information to interrogators.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Here is a man who knows about additional terrorist acts. Here is a man who trained people to do this. ARENA: What's more, some officials believe the U.S. may have interrupted a planned terrorist attack, although a specific target has not yet been identified. That learned by investigators as they go through materials found during last week's raids in Pakistan, during which Zubaydah and others were arrested.
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld denied reports the U.S. is considering handing over Zubaydah to another country where investigators could possibly use harsher techniques in their interrogations.
RUMSFELD: We are responsible for his detention, and we intend to remain responsible for his detention. And that means exactly what it means: That we, the United States of America, are responsible for him.
ARENA: Zubaydah is wanted by not only the United States, but by Jordan, which indicted him for his alleged role in a thwarted millennium bombing plot.
Officials still will not say where Zubaydah is being held. Government sources say one place he won't be taken, at least for now, is Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, where he might be able to communicate with other detainees. Officials say, while the president has not made a final decision, it is expected Zubaydah will be tried by a U.S. military tribunal.
Zubaydah is a top al Qaeda leader, said to be in charge of operations and responsible for recruiting new members.
DANIEL BENJAMIN, FORMER NSC OFFICIAL: He's someone who could pull the strings, who could coordinate highly complicated operations in different countries, and guide them toward the execution of a terrorist plot.
ARENA: In a briefing with reporters, FBI Director Robert Mueller acknowledged Zubaydah's arrest, quote, "assists in helping prevent another terrorist attack." But he did not offer any details.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARENA: The FBI director added that the threat of terrorism remains high, stressing that al Qaeda members who have not been caught still have the capability and the desire to carry out attacks -- Kate.
SNOW: Do we know more about what they found in the safe houses?
ARENA: We know a little bit. We know that they found some phone number, names, computer disks. Of course, all of this is being betted globally to try to get even more information.
SNOW: Kelli Arena in Washington, thanks so much.
In other international news, Pakistani police say they have arrested three suspected al Qaeda members today, including a Pakistani man who allegedly has close ties to Osama bin Laden. All three are being held near Lahore, Pakistan. A police official tells CNN that the Pakistani man arranged bin Laden's last interview with Al-Jazeera television. The two other al Qaeda suspects are described as a Tunisian man and a woman whose nationality has not been determined.
North Korea has an offer to resume talks with the United States, but North Korea warns it will stop talking if the U.S. "slanders" it again. President Bush, seen here with South Korean officials along the demilitarized zone between the two countries, said North Korea was part of an "axis of evil," along with Iraq and Iran.
Heavy storms have rocked the eastern coast of Spain this week, killing six people and leaving several missing. The six were on the resort island of Tenerife, where weather is improving today. Power was knocked out, and hundreds of people were forced to leave their homes.
Florida gets it wrong again. Learn about the latest election fiasco.
And later, a high-seas emergency: How a cruise ship came to the rescue.
But first, how long did the Catholic church try to treat problem priests? The answer may surprise you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Checking our latest "News Alert", problems in the Middle East continue on a number of fronts. Five people killed in Jenin, a report of group of Palestinians are holed up in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem while Israeli tanks sit outside.
Meanwhile, Hezbollah forces are reported to be shelling Israeli targets across the Lebanese-Israeli border. And Egypt says it will limit its contacts with Israel.
Arab-American and Muslim American leaders made their case for an increased U.S. response to Israeli military action in the West Bank today. The delegation met with Secretary of State Colin Powell, giving him a list of recommendations, which include sending an international peacekeeping force to the region and setting a specific date to resume talks between Israelis and Palestinians.
British Marines landed at Bagram Air Base in Afghanistan this morning, the 100 or so elite Royal Marines are trained in mountain warfare, and will be ready to join offensive operations later this month.
A humanitarian worker's effort at Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's besieged compound on Saturday have caused a backlash thousands of miles away. CNN's Brian Palmer has details of the repercussions for the members of that worker's family.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN PALMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The attack on his headquarters in Ramallah that left Yasser Arafat trapped in a single room with no electricity has drawn in a 30-year-old activist from New York and his family back home. Death threats have been made against Adam Shapiro's family, threats by people who Shapiro says accuse him of being a traitor to Jews for supporting Palestinians.
His brother, Noah, who lives in New York City:
(on camera): What kind of threats are these threats we are talking about?
NOAH SHAPIRO, ACTIVIST'S BROTHER: The threats my parents and I are receiving are these severe death threats, calling for our death, calling for my brother's death, to burn in hell in a fiery death.
PALMER (voice-over): The threats are serious enough that the NYPD has given the whole family protection. Adam Shapiro negotiated with Israeli soldiers last weekend to get the ambulance in which he was riding into Arafat's compound.
ADAM SHAPIRO, ACTIVIST: We received a phone call that there were injured inside the presidential compound and that no ambulance had been able to get in, that they were being shot at. We approached. I spoke in English and identified myself as an American to the soldiers. And that seemed to give us the opportunity to negotiate.
PALMER: But it is Shapiro's support for the Palestinian cause and the public expression of thanks from Yasser Arafat that triggered the backlash.
(on camera): You have got people who see him representing Yasser Arafat's point of view, or what they interpret to be his point of view, in telephone interviews, and I guess not speaking out as strongly against things like suicide bombing and that sort of thing.
N. SHAPIRO: My brother, with 100 percent conviction, and my family condemns suicide bombings and condemns death on both sides. My brother, in fact, tries to teach Palestinian people that there is a nonviolent solution to the end of this. That is his job. That's what he does.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PALMER: The parents remain in hiding as the Shapiro sons continue their work: Noah Shapiro here in New York and Adam still in Ramallah -- Kate.
SNOW: Brian, can you us a little more about Adam Shapiro's background?
PALMER: Well, according to his brother, his background is in Arab and Middle East studies, which includes study of Israel.
He was a member of the Seeds of Peace group, which tried to get Arab youth together with Jewish youth. And he says that he is for one side -- he is not for one side or for the other; he is simply for peace -- Kate.
SNOW: OK, Brian Palmer in New York, thank you.
Now checking these stories on today's "Newswire": The 2000 Florida vote-count controversy prompted officials to order new voting machines. But the new technology apparently hasn't solved all of the state's election problems. High-tech touch-screen machines were used for a recent election in Medley, Florida, but a computer glitch gave the victory to the wrong candidate. Experts are reviewing the software.
Athletes apparently weren't the only folks going for the gold at Winter Olympics. Politicians received tickets worth $92,000 from Olympic organizers, despite a promise by the organizers that they wouldn't dispense political gifts. The gifts were disclosed in a report filed with Utah election officials.
Two suits were filed against the Vatican today alleging that church officials covered up sexual abuse at a Catholic boarding school in Tampa, Florida and a monastery if Portland, Oregon. The suits were filed by attorney Jeffrey Anderson on behalf of two men who say they were victims. They accuse the church of participating in a conspiracy to hide the clergymen involved and to move them across state lines.
"The Boston Globe" reported today that the Roman Catholic Church probably has spent at least $50 million treating priests accused of sexual abuse. We have contacted the National Conference of Catholic Bishops for comment. They have not given us a response. "The Globe"'s report was based on an estimate from psychologist Richard Sipe, an ex-priest who has treated members of the clergy for over 40 years.
Mr. Sipe joins us now to discuss his remarks.
Thanks for being with us.
You say the Catholic Church has spent close to $50 million over the past 25 years in treating priests. How do you know that? Where do you get that figure?
RICHARD SIPE, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Well, I was trained in a hospital that treated priests. This was from '65 to '70.
And I know what hospitals costs. And hospitalization at that time ran about a year. The facilities that have opened specifically to treat priests, like the Paracletes in New Mexico, started in the '70s. And they have treated over 1,500 priests over a long period of time, over that period of time. St. Luke Institute was founded in 1981. St. Luke Institute is a fully accredited hospital.
They have now, I believe, 50 beds. Their beds are full and have been full. And my understanding is that they have a waiting list. I understand that the head of the hospital said that the charges are about $300 a day.
SNOW: So, you extrapolate, then, and this figure of $50 million.
SIPE: Yes, now, there's... SNOW: And where -- I'm sorry. Where does the money come from? I think that's probably on most people's minds when they hear that, that enormous figure. Is this coming out of the collection box?
SIPE: Well, if you are a priest in a religious order, it comes out of religious order. And many priests are treated. It takes $60,000, $75,000 their extent of treatment. But that comes out of the religious order and whatever they can get from insurance.
SNOW: And the order is separate from what people would be giving weekly our of Sunday mass?
SIPE: Yes. The Franciscans, the Benedictines, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) whatever.
The diocese pays for its priests. And that comes out of their funds. I suppose they get what they can out of insurance. But, when you have a hospital stay of seven to 11 months, insurance only pays part of that.
SNOW: Right. And just to be clear, then, where -- I just want to be really clear on where this money originates from, even the money that is part of the order's money or the diocese fund. Where is that money originating from?
SIPE: Well, I'm not sure where the church gets all of its money. Certainly, it gets a great deal from contributions.
But most orders have investment or portfolios. Most diocese have. I think the concern that you are asking about is what the public is asking: "How much of the money that I give to this institution or this parish, how much of that is going to solve this problem of sexual abuse and to support sexual abusers?"
SNOW: Is this something that's been widely known, that there's been ongoing treatment of priests for the past 25 or so years?
SIPE: Well, I think it has certainly been known within church circles and anybody, really, who wants to know it. They know that these institutions exist. And they know, across the board -- I mean, there are these treatment facilities, and have been specialized treatment facilities set up in the last 30 and 40 years, from California to Massachusetts.
(CROSSTALK)
SNOW: I'm sorry to interrupt. I suppose you might think, though, that this is a positive, that the church at least was taking some proactive steps to try to intervene for those priests who had problems. Would you agree with that?
SIPE: Oh, certainly.
I think that the efforts on the church toward supporting mental health and its patients has been very significant. And this has been written about since 1935, the effort to and the encouragement to bishops to pay attention to priests' mental health.
SNOW: One last question for you, sir, since you are a psychologist. Do you think that pedophilia and some of the things that we are talking about, sexual abuse, can those things be cured? Can someone go to treatment and come out a better person and go back to the priesthood?
SIPE: First of all, I'm a psychotherapist. I'm not a psychologist.
But my experience has been in the treatment of people. And, certainly, treatment can help. Treatment does work. I mean, ask the people who have had a problem with alcoholism. Can it be helped? And there's a whole range of people, in a sense, who have problems with alcohol, just as there is a whole range of people who have a problem with sexual behavior.
So, the responses can be individualized. But, certainly, treatment helps and can help at least some people. Now, there are always some people who nothing can -- that their illness can resist every effort to help them.
SNOW: Psychotherapist Richard Sipe, I apologize for the mistake. We will have to leave it at that. Thanks very much for your time.
SIPE: Thank you.
SNOW: Sure.
And now, as promised, our "News Quiz" answer. Earlier we asked: "What percentage of Americans are Catholic?" According to the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, 23 percent of Americans are Catholic.
When's the last time you were guilty of saying a cuss word? Coming up: a poll that doesn't paint a very pretty picture of Americans -- and a crew that should not have made it back alive: Learn the incredible way the crew made it to shore -- coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: If a new poll is right, words like politeness and courtesy may be heard only during trivia contests in the future; 79 percent of the people responding to the research group Public Agenda say rudeness is a serious problem.
How serious? Forty-six percent say they've walked out of a store because of rude customer service. And it's not just being treated with rudeness; 41 percent admit to being rude themselves.
Joining me to look at whether this is something new in the American psyche is Mark Caldwell, professor at Fordham University and author of the book "A Short History of Rudeness."
Mr. Caldwell, thanks for being here.
What's up with the first figure here, 80 percent of people saying this is a serious problem? What is going on? Why are we so rude?
MARK CALDWELL, AUTHOR, "A SHORT HISTORY OF RUDENESS": Well, I would have to start by saying that I don't think anything new is going on. This is a figure that can go back five years, 10 years, and find that Americans, in large majorities, consistently say that we are getting ruder by the year, the day, the hour. In fact, you can go back to 1900 and find a flurry of concern about manners.
And, in doing research for this book, you can go back all the way to 1400. And I think -- and I now find people saying that manners are not what they were. The interesting thing about this statistic is how consistent it is.
SNOW: In fact, we have some headlines that you I think note in your book. This are headlines throughout the last century: 1900, "Has the American Bad Manners?"; and then 1903, "Decay of American Manners; 1909, "Are We Ashamed of Good Manners?" All headlines from back in those days.
So, as you said, I guess nothing new here, but why is it that we sense that we are so rude?
CALDWELL: Well, I think another interesting thing about this study is that what it shows is that we think, as Americans, we're rude. Our perception is that we're rude.
And an interesting thing happens when you combine the statistics. Something like 80 percent -- I don't have the exact figure -- say that -- Americans -- that "I think rudeness is a serious problem among Americans." It is very interesting when you pair that with the 41 percent of respondents who admit themselves to having been rude. When you put them together, I think you get a rather funny picture.
More than twice as many people say other people are rude than admit that they themselves are rude. I think there is a lesson to be learned in that.
SNOW: You would think that September 11 might have changed things a little bit. People became kinder and gentler. Take a look at one of the other results from this Public Agenda survey. Asked whether people were going to be more caring after terrorist attacks -- how long will this last? A long while -- 34 percent say a long while. Only a few months, say 46 percent. And it is already over, say 18 percent.
Do you think we already went through that period of niceties and now it's all over?
CALDWELL: Well, I'm not sure. It is very hard to assess what a shock like that does to our behavior.
One of the interesting things about this study is that I think it is the first major one to try and address that question. And I think it is a widespread perception. And, for what's it worth, I think it is true that, in the immediate aftermath of the disaster, particularly in New York, I think there was an upsurge in consideration and good manners.
I agree with the majority of the respondents, I think, who think that that probably won't be permanent. And yet I'm very cautious about this, because I think we can't trust our perceptions of how manners are working to be accurate to whether or not we are being mannerly or rude.
SNOW: Mark Caldwell with Fordham University, thanks for taking a little time to help us understand our rudeness.
CALDWELL: Thank you.
SNOW: Appreciate it.
SNOW: Our "Web Question of the Day": "Are Americans ruder than they used to be?" You can vote at CNN.com/Wolf. And while you're there, you can let us know what you are thinking. There is a "Click Here" icon on the left side of Wolf's Web page. Send your comments and we will read some of them each night on the air.
What forced a Delta jet to make an emergency stop in Canada? And then, stranded at sea for more than two weeks: Learn about the survivors that owe their lives to a cruise ship. And the calls of terror: a side of the infamous dog-mauling case that you haven't heard.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Some new information into CNN at this hour: NASA has just announced that the space shuttle will launch tomorrow at 5:13 p.m. Eastern time. We will, of course, carry it here live on CNN on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS" tomorrow night. NASA had kept the exact time of the launch secret until 24 hours in advance because of heightened security.
A cruise ship came to the rescue of 11 sailors adrift in the Pacific Ocean for the last three weeks. The Norwegian Star came across a fire-damaged fuel tanker south of Hawaii yesterday. The Indonesian-flagged tanker had been drifting since March 13.
Coast Guard Lieutenant Desarae Atnip joins me now on the phone with more on this dramatic rescue.
It is really an amazing story. Take us back to what happened, why the Indonesian ship was out there all alone. And why did they flag for help?
LT. DESARAE ATNIP, U.S. COAST GUARD PUBLIC AFFAIRS OFFICER: Good evening, Kate.
Yes, we received the report from the Norwegian Star that a vessel had shot off a flare. And when they diverted to go see where the flare had come from, they found a vessel that had a fire on its bow, which is an international signal of distress.
(CROSSTALK) SNOW: I'm sorry.
Do we know what had happened to the ship? Why was it under in distress in the first place?
ATNIP: Right.
On March 13, we found out that they had had a fire on board which gutted the ship and knocked out all of their power, including their radios. So they weren't able to radio for help. Had they add a battery-powered EPIRB or emergency radio beacon on board, that would have alerted the Coast Guard or other vessels in the area that they were in distress. And they would have been rescued a lot sooner than 20 days before drifting at sea.
SNOW: We are seeing pictures now of some of the people who were on board on the ship. Where are the crew members now? Are they all OK?
ATNIP: One crew member died in the fire. Another crew member had burns over 50 percent of his body. And the Coast Guard HH-65 helicopter from Barber's Point landed on board the Norwegian Star and medevaced that crew member to Honolulu's Starborne Hospital (ph), where he is in stable condition.
The other 10 crew members are currently on the big island of Hawaii. And we are working through their consulate for their disposition.
SNOW: And, as I understand it, the ship is still floating out there. What is going to be done with the ship?
ATNIP: That's correct, Kate.
Currently, the owner of the vessel is working through their shipping agent -- we're expecting them to arrive in Hawaii tomorrow -- to determine what exactly they are going to do with the vessel.
SNOW: Is it dangerous? It is a fuel ship, right, a fueling ship, so it has a lot of fuel on board?
ATNIP: That's correct.
Our reports show that they have 200 tons of fuel aboard. But they are drifting very slowly. Our response center estimated that they are drifting due West at about a half-a-knot. There is no shoal water or anything for them to drift upon. We think that we could just monitor the situation and alert other vessels in the area of its presence.
SNOW: I guess it's a very lucky story for that crew, that a cruise ship just happened to be going by and were able to call the Coast Guard in to help.
ATNIP: That's correct.
And the Norwegian Star's assistant should be commended for their response in the situation.
SNOW: Lieutenant Desarae Atnip with the Coast Guard, thanks so much for filling us in. Appreciate it.
Now checking these stories on today's "Newswire": A Delta Air Lines flight from Atlanta to Spain was diverted to Canada last night when a passenger bit a flight attendant. The plane continued on to Madrid after the passenger was removed. He has been charged with assault. The flight attendant was treated by a physician on board and returned to her duties.
It wasn't played in last month's trial of a couple convicted in a fatal dog-mauling, but a newly released tape of 911 calls from anxious neighbors offers a hint of what happened in a San Francisco apartment hallway during relentless attack on Diane Whipple.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
ESTHER BIRKMAIER, NEIGHBOR OF DIANE WHIPPLE: Please hurry. I hear her screaming and I don't dare open the door. These dogs are ferocious.
DISPATCHER: Yeah, ma'am, don't open your door. We'll get somebody right over there, OK?
DAVID KUENZI, NEIGHBOR OF DIANE WHIPPLE: I heard a woman screaming. There's also a dog up there barking
DISPATCHER; And your name, sir?
KUENZI: My name is David Kuenzi. I wanted to call you. I'm going to go up and see what the hell is going on.
DISPATCHER: I wouldn't. I wouldn't. I wouldn't go up there because you never know what you might get into.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SNOW: The woman later died in that attack is.
In a moment, the results of our "Web Question of the Day": "Are Americans ruder than they used to be?" And who is to blame for Middle East tension? Our viewers point the finger next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SNOW: Let's go to New York and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE," which begins at the top of the hour -- Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Kate, thank you very much.
Tonight: Israel has ignored the international community's demand to pull out of the West Bank. Pro-Palestinian demonstrators have taken to the streets in seven Middle East capitals. We will have live reports for you from the Middle East. And Saddam Hussein is offering the parents of future suicide bombers an extra $10,000. General David Grange, our CNN military analyst, will be my guest tonight. And 36 states in this country are suffering from drought. We will have a special report for you on the drought, its devastating effect on business.
And, also tonight, I will have a few comments about "The New York Times" and "The Wall Street Journal," two publications that today reported, criticizing commentaries that I have recently made attacking the Justice Department's decision to indict the firm of Andersen. All of that and more still ahead -- please join us.
Now back to Kate Snow -- Kate.
SNOW: Thanks, Lou.
Our "Web "Question of the Day": "Are Americans ruder than they used to be?" Most of you, 69 percent, say yes. And 18 percent of you say no. The rest of you say it is none of our business. A reminder: This poll is not scientific.
Time now to hear from you and your thoughts on the escalating crisis in the Middle East.
Harry writes: "If the Israelis now have documented evidence that Yasser Arafat's PLO financed the suicide bombers, he should be put on trial for committing acts of terrorism and crimes against humanity."
But Robert says: "Sharon is using hard-nosed aggression to rid Israel of its so-called Palestinian problem. He is provoking the terror attacks against his country. If he pulled his military out of the Palestinian areas, peace would be achieved."
And this suggestion from Ron: "I think the only long-term solution is to make Jerusalem an international city monitored by a U.N. security force independent of Palestinian or Israeli control."
Thanks for joining us. I'm Kate Snow, in tonight for Wolf Blitzer. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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