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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Robert Blake Faces Arraignment; Cardinals Gathered in Rome
Aired April 22, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now, on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: Hollywood murder mystery; an appearance almost a year in the making. Robert Blake goes face to face with a judge. What's next for the actor?
Called on the carpet; American cardinals gather in Rome.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think this will be a very significant meeting as everyone has said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: More significant than he thinks? Colleagues reportedly want Boston's Cardinal Law to resign.
Still defiant: A startling move by the alleged accomplice in the 9/11 attacks.
West Bank standoffs: As the U.S. steps in, some Palestinians give up. Others turn on their own.
And "Attack of the Clones": Is the hero still a hero? A sneak preview of "Star Wars: Episode Two."
It's Monday, April 22, 2002. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We will get to the Vatican and the Middle East shortly, but topping our news alert: A developing story in Southern California.
A one-time television cop finds himself on the other side of the law. Actor Robert Blake has been charged with murdering his wife, and his arraignment is scheduled to begin in just a few minutes. CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is standing by in Los Angeles. She joins us now live with the latest -- Thelma.
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that arraignment has been delayed several times today but it is scheduled to begin at any time now.
Just a few moments ago defense attorney Harland Braun walked up the steps to the courthouse here and he told reporters that he expects his client it plead not guilty to all 4 charges. To recap those charges: Count one; murder with a special circumstance allegation of lying in wait. Counts two and three: Solicitation for murder, count four; conspiracy to commit murder.
Blake's bodyguard Earle Caldwell, his one-time handyman is also expected to be charged with one count of conspiracy to commit murder. There was a felony complaint filed by the district attorney. In there, 18 different overt acts are outlined, and among some of the highlights it says that Earle Caldwell provided a small caliber gun in a zipper case to Robert Blake that in March 2001, Blake asked a person who is unknown to hide in his van which would be parked in a desert area and kill Bonny Lee Bakley.
It further says that Caldwell would have already dug the holes for burial. It alleges that Blake suggested to the same person that the murder could also take place somewhere behind Vitello's restaurant and that he drove that person to view the possible murder site.
It also says that Blake allegedly said that the weapon would be untraceable and then he asked a second to kill Bonny Lee Bakley as she sat in a parked car and suggested that the murder could take place somewhere near Bullhead City, Arizona, or Vitello's restaurant. Again, Wolf, a lot of the details outlined here in this felony complaint will have to wait for the arraignment to begin, which should begin any time now to actually find out exactly how Robert Blake pleads. Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: All right, Thelma stand by. We'll be getting back to you once that arraignment is underway as well.
Let's take a closer look at the legal issues surrounding this high-profile Hollywood case. We would like to welcome CNN's newest legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, of "The New Yorker" magazine. He joins us now on our program. Also joining us is the former Los Angles district attorney, Ira Reiner. Mr. Reiner, thank you for joining us as well. Mr. Reiner, let me begin with you. What kind of case does the prosecution have? I take it most of the evidence, if not all of it, is circumstantial.
IRA REINER, FMR. L.A. DISTRICT ATTY.: Well, no one knows what evidence is yet. We will learn of it, not today. Nothing is going to be learned today other than the charging document itself, which is the complaint that was just summarized for us.
When we will first learn of the evidence in the case, is at the preliminary hearing. And that preliminary hearing will be ten days from now unless there is a waiver of time, which is not likely because the district attorney's office is going to push this case as rapidly as possible, and they will not wave time. It will be up to the defendant to try to ask for a continuance, and the district attorney's office will oppose it unless there is good cause shown.
BLITZER: Jeffrey Toobin, what is hardest piece of evidence, at this preliminary stage, that you have seen, that the prosecution has against Robert Blake?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, I think Ira is right there is no specific evidence on record yet, there has been no court proceeding. But this document, this complaint is pretty extraordinary. It reads like a script to "Throw Momma From the Train." He obviously, according to this document, you know, made repeated effort to have this woman killed. It was not just when he did it himself, according this accusation, and again, that is all it is, he tried two different hitmen plus his bodyguard, Earle Caldwell, and finally it seems, in frustration, did to himself.
If they can prove what is in the complaint, Robert Blake is in a world of trouble.
BLITZER: Jeffrey, let's walk through some of the counts, the four counts that were included against Robert Blake. The first count, the count of murder. That is obviously the most serious count. Two counts of solicitation of murder, and one count of conspiracy to commit a murder that all kinds up potentially, a death penalty, right?
TOOBIN: That is at least a possibility at this point in the case. The charge against him, the complaint said that there were special circumstances. Under California law you can't ask for the death penalty unless you allege special circumstances. In this one it's "lying in wait." Which in other words, an ambush type of a crime, the law says that can make you eligible for the death penalty.
I do think that we're a long way from whether he's actually charged with the death penalty, much less sentenced to it, but that is certainly a possibility at this point.
BLITZER: Ira Reiner, what about her past, her unsavory past. How much of that do you believe will be admitted as evidence in this case?
REINER: Well you know, it's interesting, there is nothing particularly unique or original about this. The defense is going to try to throw in as much of her past and it is not a particularly sanitary one, in order to really accomplish two things: One is that the victim got what she had coming to her. It's that kind of defense.
And secondly, and this is probably going to be the most significant part of the reason why they want to put this background, her background sordid background into it; and that is it is called the "somebody else might have done it" defense. The law is fairly clear on this but the application of the law sometimes can get a little murky.
The law is that if there is evidence even some slight evidence that ties another person into possibly being the perpetrator, then of course it is relevant and of course it is admissible. But if it is just pure speculation, that is, somebody may have had a motive and somebody else may have done it if they had a motive, that is pure speculation and unless there is either direct or circumstantial evidence that ties that other alleged person into the crime, it is not admissible.
Having said all that, the fact of the matter is that there are some judges that will admit absolutely everything that the defendant puts up in order to make the case bulletproof for appeal so that judge doesn't get reversed. If the only evidence of somebody else might have done it, is that which has been talked about by the defense for almost a year now, then clearly, clearly, as a matter of law it is not admissible.
If there is more that actually connects someone to it, then perhaps, or if you have, and I will say it, if you have somebody like Judge Ito, who has no standards as to what the defendant can put it, and will allow anything in, then it will come into the case.
BLITZER: Jeffrey Toobin. Earle Caldwell, the long-time bodyguard to Robert Blake, he is being charged with conspiracy to commit murder. I take it the prosecution would love to get him to turn to become a witness and obviously give him some sort of a lenient sentence if any sentence at all, right?
TOOBIN: Earle Caldwell has some wonderful negotiating leverage right now, because everyone knows that this case is not about him but about trying to convict the man who the district attorney says is the trigger man.
So if he will just say to the D.A., yes, I agreed with Robert Blake to commit this crime. I knew what he was doing. I will turn state's evidence, he could probably cut himself a very sweet deal. Now Harland Braun, who is Blake's lawyer said to me this weekend, he said, look, Earle Caldwell is not cutting a deal because he knows of no incriminating evidence so far. If in fact, Caldwell goes to trial with Blake, that could be helpful to him because he, after all, it seems, is the closest person to Blake. He is accused of doing all this. If he says that it never happened that could help them both together.
BLITZER: Jeffrey Toobin, our newest CNN legal analyst, thank you so much. Stand by. We'll come back to you as this story unfolds. Ira Reiner, a former Los Angeles district attorney, please stand by as well. We'll continue to follow this story. We're standing by for the arraignment of Robert Blake: four counts, one of them murder. We'll be monitoring that situation in Los Angeles.
Meanwhile, Bonny Lee Bakley's sister is applauding the decision to file murder charges against Robert Blake. Margerry Bakley suggests the actor had a strong motive for murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARGERRY BAKLEY, BONNY LEE BAKLEY'S SISTER: There was several phone conversations over a span of a year before her death. The man absolutely hated her, and there was too many lies, too many things going on. My sister believed strongly he was going to kill her and, in fact, he did. I am a Catholic and I am opposed to the death penalty. I understand it is California law, but if it did come down to it, I would plead for Mr. Blake's life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Once again, we are awaiting Robert Blake's arraignment in Los Angeles. We'll bring you live coverage as soon as it begins. Let's turn now to the crisis in the priesthood. Summoned by the Pope to discuss the sex abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic church, U.S. cardinals have been gathering for an unprecedented conference at the Vatican. Let's go live to CNN's Jonathan Mann. He joins us from the Vatican -- John.
JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, even the official meetings are extraordinary. Two days of talks, Tuesday and Wednesday, in the Apostolic Palace, which is the official residence and workplace of the pope. Put in terms more familiar to those of us at home, it's like a White House meeting in the West Wing just a few steps from the Oval Office.
The pope himself will address the cardinals that he has summoned to Rome, then the discussions will go where the cardinals want to take it, covering a lot ground, basically trying to set the stage to make it possible for cardinals and bishops in United States to find a way out of the sex abuse scandal that has really torn so profoundly into the heart of the Roman Catholic church.
Now those are the official sessions. We are told that an unofficial session was being held this evening before the official ones get underway. That is a special meeting for a reason of a different kind. The "Los Angeles Times" reports that senior cardinals were hoping to use a preparatory meeting at the Vatican to urge the Vatican to seek the resignation of Boston's Cardinal Bernard Law. That would be extraordinary if it were true. The Cardinal's working against one of their colleagues.
We do not know much about what the Cardinals are thinking but Cardinal Law was here secretly in Rome about 10 days ago to discuss a number of issues, his resignation among them. At that time it came up in a private meeting with the pope and when Cardinal Law arrived in Rome's airport today, he said that issue was behind them and there were other matters on the table now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CARDINAL BERNARD LAW, BOSTON, MASSACHUSETTS: I think that there is going to be a very significant meeting as everyone has said. I do not expect that we will be making decisions at this meeting, but I think it is part of a process and it will put us in good stead for our June meeting in the conference of bishops.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MANN: There are a lot of decisions to be made. Earlier, I was talking to vice president of the U.S. Conference of Bishops. He mapped out a whole range of issues that are on the bishops' minds: Cardinal Law is, he said, one of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BISHOP WILLIAM SKYSTAD, U.S. CATHOLIC BISHOPS: I can't say where the bishops are. Some that I have talked to would feel that way. But I can't say what the percentage of bishops in the country would be in that regard.
I think the issue of Cardinal Law and his situation in archdiocese of Boston in terms of his future role there needs to be discussed with the holy father. I think he has done that already as I see reports, and that is a very personal matter between him and the holy father because ultimately it is the holy father who would give him a sense of direction as to his future.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MANN: But the scandal not about Cardinal Law. It's about 45,000 priests and 60 million U.S. Catholics looking for a powerful signal that their church is back in the right path and that their faith will no longer be challenged by this terrible time -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jonathan Mann in the Vatican covering this story. Thank you very much.
And as he just reported, a central figure in the storm swirling around the U.S. church has been Boston's Cardinal Bernard Law. Before leaving for Rome he addressed the sexual abuse crisis, saying it is a wake-up call. Under fire for his handling of priest abuse cases within his diocese, Law has said he has no plans to resign. In a recent meeting at the Vatican, he was specifically urged to stay on. He says he endorses a policy to defrock pedophile priests.
For some perspective on the pope's meeting with the American cardinals, let's turn to Robert Mickens, he is the Vatican correspondent for the Catholic publication, "The Tablet." Robert, thank you so much for joining us. What if anything will emerge from this two day meeting?
ROBERT MICKENS, "THE TABLET": Well, I think that the first thing is that the cardinals have come over here to get some guidelines and the Vatican wants to give hem parameters with which they can work for their June meeting in Dallas.
Now, one of the things here is a big cultural divide and the cardinals are going to want to impress upon these Vatican officials because we are not talking mainly about the pope here, but we're talking about some men who are Latin American and Italians and one who is Polish and German who don't really understand the legal situation in the United States.
Of course, that is variated because of the different laws throughout the federation.
BLITZER: Is there a sense in the Vatican that this sexual abuse issue is particular to the United States or has some international implications?
MICKENS: Sexual abuse we have known about in the church as we've known about it in society for a long time. That is not really the big issue here. I think the important and the key issue facing the Catholic church in United States and perhaps in other parts of the church around the church in the world, is Episcopal oversight, or lack thereof.
And this is why I think the reaction in the United States was so harsh, not that we didn't know that there were sexual abusers among the clergy -- and they are probably a very small number if we can believe the reports, which I think are probably pretty valid -- it was way that it was handled. And after 1993, especially when the United States Bishops Conference gave some guidelines to all the bishops around the United States, it was expected that this wasn't going to happen any more.
In the Boston case anyway, seemed that Cardinal Law and his top aides knew something, at least in this Father Shanley, and they were moving the man around even after these guidelines were already mandated by ad hock committee of the bishop's conference.
BLITZER: Robert, you heard John Mann refer to that "L.A. Times" story about some pressure from other cardinals on the Boston cardinal, Bernard Law to step down. What can you tell us, if anything, about that kind of pressure if in fact there is this pressure?
MICKENS: Well, there are two issues here. One is that if Cardinal Law goes it is likely that a few other bishops are going to have to go too. Namely those aides who worked for him and had more hands-on experience with these abuse cases, particularly the Shanley case and the Geoghan case which preceded that.
And I am thinking specifically of people that worked in the arch diocese who are now bishops in places like New Hampshire and New York. There are at least five men who have gone from the archdiocese of Boston as monsignors and aides to the cardinal to become bishops in their own diocese. That is one issue.
They are afraid that is Cardinal Law steps down that will have a domino affect -- that is on one side. The other side is that there is great concern and the anonymous cardinal that was cited in the "L.A. Times" I think was pointing to the loss of confidence in the Catholic people in the United States. And there is some thinking, at least in one camp among bishops, that if Cardinal Law does not step down, the credibility will be further damaged. He needs to do this in order to restore some credibility in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in the United States.
BLITZER: Robert Mickens covering the story in the Vatican. Thank you so much for your insight. And one very influential cardinal is the cardinal of Washington D.C., Theodore McCarrick. He discussed the scandal facing the church with CNN's Connie Chung.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONNIE CHUNG, CNN ANCHOR: What went wrong, do you think?
CARDINAL THEODORE MCCARRICK, WASHINGTON D.C.: I am not sure that I can answer that in a word or so. I think it is a whole series of things that might have gone wrong. One of them is human nature. And human nature went wrong when we first brought sin into the world.
Also, I think part of it is that we may not have been as careful years ago as we are now about people who come into the priesthood. However, I think that is important for us to understand the context now. We're talking about less than 2 percent of priests, so that when you say, what went wrong, sure, even to have one child hurt is a disaster.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Connie Chung will be live from Rome on the crisis in the priesthood, tonight at 8:00 p.m. Eastern, 5 p.m. Pacific.
Turning now to another legal case making headlines: The man suspected of being the 20th September 11 hijacker told a federal judge today he wants to fire his attorneys. CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena is following the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A defiant Zacarias Moussaoui said he does not trust his court-appointed lawyers, claiming they are agents of the same government that wants to put him to death. He asked a federal judge to let him defend himself, or find a Muslim lawyer of his choosing.
Immediately after entering the courtroom, Moussaoui surprised his lawyers by requesting permission to speak. Lecturing the court for nearly an hour, flanked by two federal marshals, Moussaoui quoted the Koran and prayed to Allah for, among other things, the, quote, "destruction of the United States of America and for the destruction of the Jewish people and state."
Moussaoui, who investigators believe intended to be the 20th hijacker on September 11, contends he never told his lawyers anything of substance. Moussaoui pledged, quote, "America, I'm ready to fight, even with both hands tied behind my back." One outside defense attorney said Moussaoui did not help his case.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are going to be treated as an admission, at least to the extent of his feelings about the country, OK, and it was probably, you know, unwise and reckless under the circumstances to make those kinds of statements in an American court.
ARENA: Moussaoui lawyer Frank Dunham said the defense team, quote, "tried as hard as we could" unquote, to make the relationship work. Not only did Moussaoui argue to fire his lawyers,
(on camera): but he told the court he didn't want a jury trial because, in his words, only the judge could see through the tricks of the U.S. government.
(voice-over): His trial is scheduled to begin in September.
MARK HULKOWER, FMR. FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: There is no danger to the prosecution from having a trial by judge. The reason Moussaoui would want it is because he is well aware of how the public views him and that there is probably an unparalleled level of hostility towards Mr. Moussaoui. ARENA: Judge Leonie Brinkema (ph) ordered a psychological evaluation of Moussaoui before deciding how to proceed. What's more, she says she will not allow Moussaoui to represent himself in court without stand-by counsel, given the complexity of the case.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And our Web question of the day is this: Do you think suspected terrorist, Zacarias Moussaoui, can get a fair trial?
You can vote. Go to cnn.com/wolf. While you're there, let me know what you are thinking. There's a "click here" icon right on the left side of my Web page. Send me your comments and I'll read some of them on the air each day. Also, that is where you can read my daily on-line column at cnn.com/wolf.
Palestinians shot dead in the street by other Palestinians. Nic Robertson on revenge and retribution in the West Bank. And later, canine rescue on the high seas. The Coast Guard moves in on man's best friend. Plus, the softer side of Darth Vader. A sneak peek at "Star Wars: Episode Two." First, our news quiz.
Which episode of "Star Wars" made the most money at the box office -- episode 4, "A New Hope," episode 5, "The Empire Strikes Back," episode 6, "Return of the Jedi," episode one, "The Phantom Menace?"
The answer coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Sounds of automatic weapons and stun grenades echoed in the area around Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity as Israeli troops exchanged fire with Palestinians holed up in the church compound. While attempts to negotiate an end to the standoff have failed, five Palestinians fled the church Monday and were apprehended by Israeli forces.
The United Nations has set up a fact-finding team to investigate the devastation at the Jenin Refugee Camp on the West Bank. Some of that refugee camp was destroyed in fierce fighting between Israeli troops and Palestinian gunmen. Palestinians say hundreds were massacred at the camp. Israel puts the number of deaths in the dozens, saying they stemmed from the battle. Let's go to Los Angeles now where we are getting some developments in the arraignment of Robert Blake.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... count one, it is charged that on May the 4th of 2001, Blake committed a first degree murder of Bonny Lee Bakley. And it is further alleged that Robert Blake personally and intentionally discharged a firearm which caused proximate -- great bodily injury and death to Bonny Lee Bakley. It is further alleged that Bonny Lee Bakley was intentionally killed while the victim -- killed by means of lying-in-wait, that is what we call a special circumstance. In count two, the defendant Blake is charged with solicitation of murder and count three he is charged with solicitation of murder, in count four he is charged with conspiracy to commit a murder along with the co-defendant Earle Caldwell.
All right, so Mr. Caldwell, you are charged only in count four with the conspiracy to commit a murder, and Mr. Blake, you are charged in all four counts. Mr. Braun, how does your client plead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Mr. Blake enters a plea of not guilty on his own behalf, and Ms. Lotnick (ph) , how does your client, Mr. Caldwell plead?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not guilty, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, not guilty plea will be entered on behalf of Mr. Caldwell. We previously agreed on a date for a preliminary hearing setting of May the first in division 112. Mr. Blake you are entitled to have a preliminary hearing within 10 days of today's date. Your attorney has selected the date of May 1 for a preliminary hearing setting date.
That means you are You are not actually going to have a preliminary hearing on that date, but on that date your attorney and the district attorneys will select another date for that preliminary hearing. Is that agreeable with you, Mr. Blake, and do you wave time until the date of May the first?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, and Mr. Caldwell, similarly, you are entitled to have a preliminary hearing within 10 days of today's date. Your attorney along with the co-defendant's attorney have selected the date of May the 1st for a preliminary hearing setting in division 112. You wave time, Mr. Caldwell, and agree to put your case over for a preliminary hearing setting on the date of May 12?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the issue of bail, we did discuss it, on the record, in chambers. Let me hear from you first, Mr. Braun, on bail on Mr. Blake.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I would like to put that over also until we have a chance to complete discovery since the nature of the case will bear on whether he is eligible for bail at all, so we would like to put that off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, and Ms. Slotnick, what about you and Mr. Caldwell?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) your honor, I would like to put issue of bail (UNINTELLIGIBLE) court date.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. The issue of bail then we're not going to address today. We'll put the issue of bail for both defendants over to the date of May the 1st or beyond if the attorneys select another date for that particular issue. As I saw this morning, we have about 12 boxes of discovery here -- four boxes for each of you, so you have got a lot of reading to do, particularly the defense attorneys who haven't seen this material before, so there is a lot of information to be digested before we get to those issues.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The extent of bail is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) have been set for $1 million. I would ask the court to set it for that amount.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's what it is. The statutory amount pursuant to the schedule for a murder in the first degree, as I am sure Mr. Dixon and Mr. Dohee (ph) know is a million dollars, so I am going to leave the bail set at a million dollars until there has been a hearing and some deviation upward or downward from that, or it may remain the same. All right, Mr. Dohey (ph) did you want to say something?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, your Honor, I'm sorry. Just to clarify so on the May 1st date, he's asking both defendants, is that correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both defendants, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Both defendants will have a preliminary hearing setting on May 1st right in this building, Division 112 is up on the 8th floor. I'm sure most of you are familiar with it. If not, it is right there if you want to go up there and take a look. All right, anything else, Mr. Braun, that you need to address?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, what about you, Ms. Slideck (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nothing further, your Honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, Misters Dohey (ph) and Dixon (ph), anything further that we need to address?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, thank you, your honor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, we did talk about discovery in chambers upon the record, The three of you are going to make the arrangements about the discovery that was here in the courtroom this morning, later this afternoon. Is that right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, all right, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please remain seated, remain seated.
BLITZER: There you have it. There is Robert Blake. He's standing up; he pleaded not guilty. Four counts filed against him including the count of first-degree murder. His longtime bodyguard Earle Caldwell pleading not guilty, one count conspiracy to commit murder. Let's bring in CNN legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, who was listening, watching this along with the rest of us. May 1st, the next event, a preliminary hearing. What does that precisely mean, Jeff?
TOOBIN: Wolf, what actually the Judge did was, he said that on May 1st, they would decide when the preliminary hearing would be. So there will not be the hearing on the 1st, it would be sometime later. A preliminary hearing under California Law is a procedure where the Government is required to show probable cause that the defendants are guilty. Probable cause is, of course, a much lower standard than proof beyond a reasonable doubt. And the Government almost never loses a preliminary hearing. But it is an opportunity for the Defense to see the Government's case for the first time in a courtroom setting. And it is a chance to start to poke holes in it. But it is really the first part of the process that leads to an actual felony trial.
BLITZER: What was your interpretation of the issue of bail as far as these two defendants are concerned?
TOOBIN: Well I think what we learned today is that the Defense Lawyers recognize that bail is a real long shot in this case. Because, with a potential capitol crime either Conspiracy to Commit Murder or Murder, defendants almost never get bail. I think what the lawyers are trying to do is put together a package that says, based on the evidence we've seen, this is a weak case, which bears on the question of bail. Therefore they should be more entitled to bail. It is unlikely that they will succeed on May 1st, it is even less likely they would succeed now. So, it is not surprising that they put off the decision for a while.
BLITZER: Well let's bring in Ira Reiner, a former Los Angeles District Attorney. He's been watching all of this along with the rest of us as well. Mr. Reiner, when that next event happens on May 1st -- you have vast experience in this area of the law -- what should we expect to see?
REINER: There is really nothing going to happen other than, as Jeff said, they are going to have a trial setting, or that is a preliminary hearing setting. They are going to give the date for the preliminary hearing. The reason that there was a delay, a continuance, because by law the preliminary hearing must take place ten days from today, the day of the arraignment, unless the Defendant waives time, and the District Attorney office also agrees.
At the arraignment, discovery is permitted. That is, the District Attorney's Office will turn over to the Defendant the material that they have that the Defendant is entitled to see. And since there is a great deal of it, apparently -- voluminous, I think the Judge, the Magistrate described it as -- that it takes some time to review prior to the preliminary hearing. Because the lawyers will need to have that information to challenge the Prosecution's case at the preliminary hearing.
On the question of bail, if there is a Special Circumstance that is charged, which makes it eligible for either the Death Penalty or Life Without the Possibility of Parole, then the Defendant is not entitled to bail of any amount. If it is merely -- I say merely, but -- if it is merely First-Degree Murder without Special Circumstances, then bail is appropriate and the judge has set the bail for First Degree in this case by a schedule, which is one million dollars. There is no effort here to meet that, because the District Attorney's Office is charging -- or they are alleging -- Special Circumstances.
BLITZER: In this particular hearing that we just saw with the arraignment, Michael Duffy, the Judge, Mr. Reiner, seemed very business like, very straightforward. He was selected by a commission, a group of other judges. What do we know about Michael Duffy?
REINER: Well he is what is called a magistrate, which -- actually he is a commissioner. And as a commissioner, he is not a judge, but he has all the authority and powers of the judge as long as both parties agree that the Commissioner can hear the matter. This is simply an arraignment. It is a very simple process. All that the Commissioner has to do is take a plea from the parties, from the Defendant, and then set a date for a preliminary hearing. Or as in this case, a date for a setting for a preliminary hearing.
It is the next stage that is going to be a little bit more complex. And that is, going to be the preliminary hearing where, as Jeff said, the Prosecution has to put on what is called a Probable Cause showing. That is, merely, probable cause that the Defendant committed the crime. It is not a very difficult burden to meet. But I might just point out. There is one thing to look for at the preliminary hearing and that is the allegation of a Special Circumstance of Lying in Wait. That is a little bit of a reach, given the facts that we know in this case. Whether there is truly Lying in Wait, as that is generally understood.
If that doesn't survive the Preliminary Hearing, that means the case would go to trial as a First Degree Murder Case but not a Special Circumstance Case. And therefore the Defendant would be facing only Life With the Possibility of Parole as opposed to Without the Possibility or possibly even the Death Penalty.
BLITZER: All right, Mr. Reiner and Jeffrey Toobin, please both of you stand by. Our Frank Buckley was inside that courtroom during the arraignment. He is now outside; he joins us live. Take us inside, Frank, and give us the sense, we saw it on television, but you were there in person.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, as we've been seeing outside, there is a great number of reporters on the inside. There are about 75 people inside. The Bailiff came out, and was very clear about making sure that everyone was quiet when, during the proceedings. As Blake came in, everyone of course was staring at Blake, and also at Caldwell. There was no discussion; it didn't appear as if Blake at any point really broke his expression or Mr. Caldwell breaking his expression. They simply answered the questions that were put to them.
It appeared as if Mr. Blake had his hands in his lap and simply looked ahead, occasionally looking down. But nothing dramatic. This was an arraignment and we heard a Not Guilty, and a Not Guilty, your Honor, and that was about it. It wasn't particularly dramatic; it was quiet. People wanted to see what Blake looked like. He didn't look out into the crowd, or make eye contact, at least it seemed to us, with anyone when he walked inside. Wolf.
BLITZER: Basically, Frank, we also noticed that both of these Defendants, Mr. Blake and Mr. Caldwell were wearing regular clothes. They weren't wearing prison clothes. Is that normal in this kind of a situation?
BUCKLEY: Well I've seen it both ways. I've seen in some cases where they come out wearing the orange jumpsuit of county jail, or in some cases they come out in the street clothes. In this case they obviously were allowed to wear street clothes. Mr. Blake coming out in a coat and tie. So, I've seen it both ways.
BLITZER: Frank, also, the comments made by Mr. Harland Braun, he's the attorney for Robert Blake. He didn't want, going into this hearing today, TV cameras in there. Walk us through, what happened that allowed the TV cameras to show this live around the United States; indeed, around the world, if anyone was interested outside the United States.
BUCKLEY: Well, Harland Braun came in and talked about the fact that, yes, there is high publicity in this case. Talked about the intense public interest, but he said that this was not a, quote, "case of public corruption". This is not a case of "national security". He talked about the fact that this was simply a case of public curiosity and interest. And he didn't necessarily put forward that the arraignment shouldn't be allowed to be televised. But he wanted to be on the record that for the rest of the proceedings, he felt that it was a detrimental to his client's interest for television cameras to be present.
He said that we are -- two major concerns -- he talked about the witnesses. He said that witnesses realize they are in a high publicity case, they will want to make up stories or elaborate on the stories, even if they are being truthful. And he said that we are in a, quote, "era of celebrity jurors" and also talked about the fact that jurors know from past high profile cases that, when they come back to their community. If they have delivered a verdict that the community isn't happy with, he said, they would be concerned about public opinion. And so that might influence how they proceed. The Defense Attorney, for Mr. Caldwell joined Harland Braun in that motion. The District Attorney's Office simply stood up and said that it is the DA's policy not to oppose cameras. And simply to defer to the Judge to allow the Judge to make that decision.
Then, Kelly Seger (ph), representing CNN and Court TV came in and talked about the fact that essentially nothing was put forward today that would prohibit cameras from being involved in the arraignment portion of the court proceedings. And she felt that this was an important thing, to allow the community to see what is going on in the courtroom in the arraignment, throughout the court proceedings. And it seems to me that it is going to be left to another day to decide whether or not the camera will be allowed in for the preliminary hearing. And after that the trial, which could be, which will be several months away. Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Frank Buckley, thank you very much for that report. Stand by, we'll probably be getting back to you, shortly as well. Our legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin has been watching all of this as well. For those of our viewers, Jeffrey, who may just be tuning in, just before the arraignment there was a criminal complaint that was filed with the court outlining, basically, the charges -- some of the evidence -- that the Prosecution might have. Walk us through, precisely, what this complaint accuses Robert Blake of doing.
TOOBIN: The Las Angeles District Attorney charged, first of all, that Robert Blake fired the gun that killed his wife, very straightforward charge of Murder. Second, he charged -- the District Attorney charged -- that Blake sought two people on separate occasions to be hitmen to murder his wife. And the fourth charge, after the Murder and the two Solicitation charges is a Conspiracy, is an agreement with others to murder his wife.
So it is -- what's remarkable about this complaint is that it charges not that this was some sort of crime of passion, but a sustained long-term multi-month process where Robert Blake tried in several different ways to get his wife killed. And finally, it seems in frustration, simply did it himself. Obviously it is only a complaint; we don't know whether it is true. But, it is a pretty ugly charge.
BLITZER: And a much lesser charge though for Earle Caldwell, Blake's longtime bodyguard, Conspiracy to Commit Murder. What did the complaints say about Mr. Caldwell?
TOOBIN: Well, Caldwell was sort of the assistant, according to the Government. There is really a remarkable, there is a remarkable passage in the complaint where it says that Defendant Caldwell, at the request of Defendant Blake wrote and kept the following list of items for use in the murder, quote: "two shovels, small sledge, crowbar, 25 auto, get blank gun ready, old rugs, duct tape, Drano, pool acid, lie, plant."
Boy, if he has a list like that in his own handwriting, it is hard to think of what that could be -- what the justification for that list could be except that it was meant to be used in a murder.
BLITZER: All right, Jeffrey, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
TOOBIN: ... so he's got problems too.
BLITZER: Hold on one second, I want to come back to you, but Frank Buckley is standing by with the sister of Bonny Lee Bakley. She is outside the courtroom right now. Talk to us, Frank, tell us -- get us some reaction from Bonnie Lee Bakley's sister. BUCKLEY: OK, Wolf. Margerry Bakley is with me. And, Margerry, we were just -- Wolf Blitzer -- was just talking about some of the details contained in the complaint. I want to ask you about that in a moment. But you were in the courtroom, you got to look at Robert Blake yourself. First tell us your impression.
BAKLEY: It was just awful, after reading the complaint, and seeing him and seeing Earle. It's just awful. I just feel terrible; I just feel absolutely terrible.
BUCKLEY: You were here to see, you were telling me earlier, Robert Blake with your own eyes. You were saying that it seemed unreal after all these months. What was your impression of him? What were you hoping to gain by seeing Robert Blake today?
BAKLEY: I don't know if really I was trying to gain anything other than to just actually see for myself that he was being charged, and to know that it was really being done. Somehow when you watch it on television, that has a sense of unrealness. And when you are there in person, seeing it happen and reading the statements, it's for real.
BUCKLEY: Wolf was just talking about some of the items on this list in the complaint: the two shovels, the small sledge, the crowbar, the 25 auto, get blank gun ready, old ducts. When you read those kinds of details, what do you think?
BAKLEY: I just can't believe it. I can't believe my sister is gone, I can't believe (UNINTELLIGIBLE) planned this. I can't believe they just -- and they knew it. I can't believe it -- seeing it and being there. They waited for her, they preyed on her. They dug holes.
BUCKLEY: Margerry, I'm going to let you take a second here. Wolf, I mean, clearly it is an emotional moment for the sister here. And we're going to toss it back to you for a second.
BLITZER: All right, thank you very much, Frank. Thank Margerry as well. I know this is a difficult moment for her. It has been a difficult, almost, year for her and the entire Bakley family. Let me just recap for a moment. Four counts against Robert Blake. He pleaded Not Guilty. His bodyguard, one count Conspiracy to Commit Murder, Earle Caldwell. He pleaded Not Guilty.
Before I let Ira Reiner go, Mr. Reiner, the former Los Angeles District Attorney, how much pressure is the LAPD under right now, as well as the Los Angeles District Attorney because of the O.J. Simpson fiasco that occurred in 1995?
REINER: Plenty, and the fact that you mentioned it is the clearest indication that there is that history. That puts an edge to it. But, you know, on the question of whether this should be televised and tying it into your question just now. Yes, I believe this trial should be televised for one very important reason. The Simpson trial was not typical of an American criminal trial. It was -- well, you know, it almost suffocated on its own excesses. And I think it is important for the public to see how a criminal trial can and should be conducted.
And I would hope that this case would be televised, and the judge in this case would control it as a typical criminal case, a murder case is handled. And this should be handled like any murder case. Not blown up out of proportion into a so-called Case of the Century.
BLITZER: All right now, Mr. Reiner, stand by, I want to bring back Frank Buckley. He's got the sister of Bonny Lee Bakley -- a little bit more composed right now, I take it, Frank. You want to pick up your questioning with Margerry?
BUCKLEY: OK, Wolf, we just wanted to give Margerry a chance to take a breath there. Let's talk about the fact that earlier on there was the conversation about whether or not cameras should be allowed to continue on in the courtroom beyond today. Do you have a view on whether or not the proceedings should be televised?
BAKLEY: Well, you know, Mr. Braun likes to use the press when it is convenient for him. He has been trashing my sister since the night this happened. And I'm proud of the judge's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in allowing the TV to be in there so they can see exactly what's going on. Because otherwise it would still be the one side, where his side just gets out about how terrible my sister was and not how terrible his client actually is.
BUCKLEY: It has been suggested that she had a conviction for holding fake IDs and that, as you know, it has been alleged that she was luring men into situations. And therefore, other people had a reason to kill her. What do you say to those allegations?
BAKLEY: Well, the allegations of the phony ID is true. But she never lured anybody into anything. She sold photos of nude adult women, not always herself. And the ones that were of herself were when she was under 20 years old. She was 44 years old, the mother of four; there was no recent photos. She wasn't luring anybody into anything they already didn't know. When they asked to purchase photos, she sold them. She obviously didn't want people to know she was Mrs. Robert Blake, so she sold them with fake IDs.
BUCKLEY: Margerry, I'm going to ask Cary Goldstein here to step in, the attorney for the family. Cary, you sat in on the proceedings. First of all, your impressions of what you heard here.
CARY GOLDSTEIN, BAKLEY ATTORNEY: Well, I was real pleased to read the complaint. It shows that, in fact, what we've suspected earlier on is correct. And they have apparently done an extremely thorough job, just as we had suspected. This case is going to be won by the District Attorneys Office. The Police Department is looking for vindication for prior investigations. They are not taking any chances. And the District Attorneys Office wants to restore credibility it has had from other major cases. We are convinced that this case will be proven.
BUCKLEY: In the complaint the District Attorneys Office lays out 18 separate overt acts. They suggest that there were two separate plots, two separate people who were solicited beyond the one that they allege finally occurred. The third plot involving Mr. Blake himself. Were you surprised at the level of detail in the complaint?
GOLDSTEIN: Yes I actually was. And I'm pleased to see that, in fact, the DA is doing their job. This is going to be interesting. Hopefully they are going to be able to tie the evidence to -- the handgun -- to Robert Blake without much difficulty. I think that should be very damming.
BUCKLEY: Margerry has told us, on the issue of child custody of Rose, the little girl who is almost two year old, that she has no intention of filing suit for custody. But she might seek visitation. Is that representative of the entire family in the case?
GOLDSTEIN: Well, I think Margerry can speak for them better than I can. But it does appear that what the family wants is to be part of Rose's life. And that right now it doesn't appear that custody is what they are looking for. There is no reason that Rosie shouldn't get to know her mother's side of the family. And her aunt and her uncles and stepbrother and sister and grandmother -- why not.
BUCKLEY: Defense Attorney Harland Braun was saying that if cameras continue in the courtrooms through the preliminary hearing and into the trial, that it is not fair to his client. That you get jurors that are, possibly prejudiced, and witnesses who elaborate or make up stories. What's your view on television throughout the trial.
GOLDSTEIN: Well, with all due respect to Mr. Braun, he's utilized the media to his client's benefit extensively. Had we not opposed it, I think the perspective that we see now might have been very different. This is an open system we have in America. I think it is very important that Americans view the process, because if there is ever some sort of foul-up here, we need to be able to see that. Wealthy people and celebrities in America don't get away with murder.
BUCKLEY: I'll ask you both. This has been 11 months of waiting for both of you, for an outcome that you thought was coming. Tell me first, Margerry, about the sense of expectation that you have had for this moment. You have been waiting to see Robert Blake step into a courtroom. It has finally happened. Do you have some sense of satisfaction or -- describe it for me?
BAKLEY: I wouldn't call it satisfaction. It's just what needed to be done is done. I'm so happy with the Las Angeles Police Department and the detectives involved here. They have done an incredible job and they were up against some pretty heavy lawyers here, and they are going to win their case. They've got their evidence. They've crossed the Ts, dotted the Is, they've done their job. And again, I'm sorry that this is what he's done. But, he did it, he's got to face his charges. I was just happy that he is finally where he belongs.
BUCKLEY: Thanks, Margerry. And, Cary, last word?
GOLDSTEIN: Only that the family, I know, is looking forward to closure and justice being served in this case. And, hopefully that's what we'll see. Thank you.
BUCKLEY: Cary Goldstein and Margerry Bakley, thank you both very much for spending time with us, immediately after the court proceedings. Wolf, that's it from them, and we'll toss it back to you.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Frank Buckley. And thank Margerry Bakley and Cary Goldstein for all of us as well. While you were speaking, Harland Braun, the attorney representing the former actor Robert Blake was speaking as well. And he was specifically answering the question, how Mr. Blake is doing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HARLAND BRAUN, ATTORNEY FOR ROBERT BLAKE: Very relieved again that according to the Bakley family that Rosie will remain with his daughter and not go back East with the Bakley family. That's always been a main concern. He's had visits from both of his children, who are standing behind him. They next thing we have to do now is, we haven't gotten all the evidence. So I can't comment on what evidence they have, because I haven't seen it. We'll be getting that in the next week. And then we'll come back and set a preliminary hearing date.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Harland Braun, the attorney for Robert Blake. Once again Robert Blake pleading Not Guilty to four counts, including Murder. Earle Caldwell, his longtime bodyguard pleading Not Guilty, one count of Murder Conspiracy. We'll continue to follow this story and update you with developments as they occur. When we return, we'll go back to the Vatican -- an update there. The Cardinals, American Cardinals, preparing to meet with Pope John Paul II. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back.
Let's go to New York now and get a preview of "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE", that begins right at the top of the hour. Lou.
LOU DOBBS, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Wolf, thank you and welcome home. Yasser Arafat approves 3rd party mediation to end the standoff in Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity. Arafat remains under siege in Ramallah. We'll be going live to the West Bank city. Colin Powell's Middle East mission, a failure; the Bush Administration, none the less calling it a success. We'll find out what former National Security Adviser Sandy Berger calls it. And a bruising session on Wall Street today. Market Strategist Ed Jardennie (ph) is my guest. All of that, a lot more coming up at the top of the hour. Please join us. Now back to Wolf Blitzer.
BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou. Always good to go, better to come home. Appreciate it very much. And as we told you earlier, American Cardinals have arrived in Rome for an extraordinary meeting beginning tomorrow at the Vatican. Just what kind of role do they play in the Catholic Church, CNN's Miles O'Brien joins us now from the CNN Center to explain. Go ahead and explain, Miles. MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'll do my best, Wolf. Of course, many of us are familiar with the term, the College of Cardinals, which is neither a body of education nor a bird of course. But the College of Cardinals is the meeting at which the decision is made as to who will be the next Pope. That is called a conclave. And that is something that we are familiar with, whenever there is a transition in the Papacy. This meeting is a consistory, an extraordinary consistory -- a little more on that in just a few moments. Let me just tell you a little bit about this. The College of Cardinals was formed in the 12th Century, like so many things in the Catholic Church.
It goes on for a long time, very tradition-bound. What is slightly different about these extraordinary consistories is they were really started off by Pope John Paul II in 1979. He actually began the concept of calling in some portion of the College of Cardinals, maybe all of them or just some portion as we are seeing right now for consultation. And the consultation, of course, is not binding. Because the Church is not a Democracy. Now the members of the College of Cardinals under 80 years of age can vote in Papal elections. That was a decision that was made by Pope John Paul's predecessor, Pope Paul VI. Now a little bit more about the numbers in the College of Cardinals. The full body is a total of 176. They would, of course, meet in that conclave to choose a new Pontiff when that time comes.
Now, 13 of the College of Cardinals are from the United States. All 134 of those are in Rome for this special extraordinary consistory. And 155 of the College of Cardinals, named by John Paul II, all but one of the 13 US Cardinals was named by John Paul. So, these people are people he was familiar with. And of course are like- minded people. There are 126 voting members in the College of Cardinals. Now as I said in the beginning, Wolf, that whole idea of the Conclave is something that we're all familiar with.
The Conclave is where the decision is made about the new Pope. And of course, the famous white puff of smoke which comes from the chimney in the Vatican. And basically what happens is, as they go through their series of votes, they burn the ballots each time. On the occasion when the decision has been made, they alter the chemical content of those ballots to get the white smoke. And as you can see here from 1978, the decision on Pope John Paul II. Wolf, back to you.
BLITZER: Miles O'Brien thank you very much for that. Very quickly now, now the results of our web question of the day. Do you think suspected terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui can get a fair trial? Fifty-nine percent of you said yes, 41 percent of you said no. A reminder, this is not a scientific poll.
That's all the time we have today. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. See you tomorrow. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
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