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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Arafat Free; No Bail For Blake

Aired May 01, 2002 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Now on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: Yasser Arafat on his way to freedom, other Palestinians on their way to jail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SAEB EREKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: The whole deal is done under the auspices and the full guarantee of the United States and Britain.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Where did al Qaeda come up with the idea for the September 11 hijackings?

United Airlines is training its pilots with the use of stun guns. I Will get a lesson live on the air.

And stars in trouble. A crucial court appearance for a Hollywood veteran as an ex-NBA player gets the word from the grand jury.

It's Wednesday, May 1, 2002. Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. It's a done deal in Ramallah. Wanted Palestinians are carted off, Israeli troops have backed off, and Yasser Arafat is a free man. After being pushed toward peace in the Middle East, both sides take a leap of faith, and that tops our news alert.

Israeli troops have been pulling out of his Ramallah compound, and after a month under virtual house arrest, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat can now come and go as he likes. The deal was sealed when six Palestinians wanted by Israel were taken from Ramallah to a jail in Jericho, under U.S. and British supervision. We'll have much more on this in a moment. We have this new video of their arrival and we'll have more coming up in just a moment.

The man expected to become China's leader met today with his current and future U.S. counterparts. Hu Jintao lunched with Vice President Cheney and then met with President Bush. The Chinese vice president is seen by U.S. officials as a cautious man whose policies may not become clear until his expected takeover of the top job in Beijing next year.

Actor Robert Blake is back in court this afternoon. He wants the judge to grant him bail so he can get out of jail. Blake has been behind bars for the past 2 1/2 weeks, charged in the killing of his wife Bonny Lee Bakley a year ago.

More now on our top story. Yasser Arafat is a free man, as wanted Palestinians leave his West Bank headquarters in one direction and Israeli troops leave in another, we begin in Ramallah with CNN's Matthew Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, developments have been dramatic here in Ramallah with a lot of activity on the military side. Earlier we saw the British and U.S. security experts with the six wanted Palestinians wanted in Israel transfer those Palestinians in a column of unmarked vehicles along this road towards Jericho, the West Bank Palestinian town where there is a Palestinian prison facility that's already been inspected and in which those six men wanted by Israel will be interred under the U.S. initiative and monitored, guarded by international guards.

Also we have been seeing a lot of military activity around Yasser Arafat's compound. There is still a tight security cordon around that compound from the Israeli military. But they have said that once this transfer is complete, and it is complete now, then they will begin withdrawing their forces.

Again, we have seen a lot of activity, but there is still an Israeli military presence there. Only when that is gone are we likely to see Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian leader who's been holed up inside that compound since the end of March. We're likely to see him emerge into the relative freedom of the West Bank in the Gaza Strip. From this vantage point we'll be bringing you those developments as soon as they come through to us.

Matthew Chance, CNN, overlooking President Yasser Arafat's compound in Ramallah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Matthew.

As it seeks to push the parties toward a peace deal, the Bush Administration finds itself pushed into a role it may not have wanted. It is also feeling the push and pull at home. Let's go live to CNN senior White House correspondent, John King. He joins us -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Wolf. Some domestic politics perhaps complicating the president's international diplomacy. He's hoping over the next week or so to build on the confidence in Ramallah and push the parties toward the next step. He was put on notice today by House and Senate leaders that the Congress beginning tomorrow we are told in the House will debate resolutions that could complicate things.

Those resolutions very pro-Israel, very condemning of the Palestinian conduct in all of this. The White House doesn't believe they should change the presidents's strategy, but the White House also made clear today it would prefer no distractions. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president understands that it's delicate right now in the Middle East. He believes Congress understands that as well. The president thinks that Congress also understands that no foreign policy can survive 535 different secretaries of state.

KING (voice-over): Senate resolution being pushed by Democrat Joseph Lieberman supports Israel's right to self defense and equates its conflict with the Palestinians to the U.S. war against terrorism.

The House version authored by Republican whip Tom Delay also voices solidarity with Israel and condemns what it calls the on-going support and coordination of terror by Yasser Arafat and other members of the Palestinian leadership. With the stand-off at the Palestinian compound in Ramallah now over, the White House goal is more progress and the worry is such a pro-Israel stance by the Congress could make it more difficult to win concessions for Mr. Sharon.

The White House strategy now is for the president to urge the prime minister to withdraw all Israeli troops from the Palestinian territories, lift economic restrictions on the Palestinians and consider broader peace negotiations. Mr. Bush views simultaneous help from the Arabs as critical. Saudi Arabia says it will take a lead role in pressuring Mr. Arafat, and Jordan's King Abdullah is coming to the White House next week to talk strategy.

ADEL AL-JUBEIR: Left to their own devices, the Palestinians and Israelis have shown they're incapable of reaching a peace agreement. That's why it requires a concentrated international effort.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: So complicated diplomacy ahead for the White House on the one hand, congressional aides working with the White House to try to water down, moderate the language in those resolutions a bit. Still, the White House says it views that debate more of a nuisance than a problem. As one aide put it, unnecessary noise in a debate that is plenty loud already.

These aides say the president's priority will be on the diplomacy and Wolf, they're trying to lower expectations on that front saying the President's goal is slow but steady progress. Anyone looking for what one called a "quote" quantum leap to peace negotiations is asking too much --Wolf.

BLITZER: John, what did the Bush Administration learn from one of the mistakes of the Clinton Administration when it comes to trying to advance the peace process in the Middle East?

KING: That's why you see so much public coordination with the Saudis in recent days, King Abdullah coming here early next week. What the Bush Administration believes is that ultimately any peace deal will look very much like what President Clinton negotiated at Camp David. They believe that the key tactical mistake there was that Clinton negotiated directly with the Israelis and the Palestinian, did not involve the Egyptians and Jordanians and the Saudis, and at the very end, when Arafat said no, Mr. Clinton ungently called and begged for help, urged them to help pressure Mr. Arafat.

They said they didn't know enough about the negotiations to help. This White House wants to bring the Arabs along every step of the way so that if -- and it's a big if -- but if they ever get to that critical juncture, everybody is on board.

BLITZER: John King at the White House. Thank you very much. And standing by on Capitol Hill for some additional perspective, Senator Richard Shelby of Alabama. He is vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Senator, thanks for joining us.

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Are we reading too much into today's dramatic developments in Ramallah to think that it might be a positive step forward?

SHELBY: Well, I think you can say it's positive, Wolf. And it's good news, but it's a long way to bringing the parties together at the peace table and having a warm peace. I believe personally that if we could go weeks without violence, without terrorists attacking Israel, perhaps there would not be the retaliation by the Israelis, but Israel's got a right to survive and they can survive.

And I believe it would be in everybody's interest to come to the peace table and mean it, rather than just keep killing each other. But I believe that today's steps are a step, but remember, it's only a step.

BLITZER: What about this so-called division of labor that the Saudis, the other Arab leaders, the moderate Arabs, squeeze Arafat and President Bush squeezes Ariel Sharon, the prime minister of Israel? Is that doable as far as Bush squeezing Sharon?

SHELBY: I'm not sure you can squeeze anybody except just so far. I believe Israel has a right to survive. I believe Sharon is going to do what is in the best interest as he sees it for the security of Israel, after being attacked over and over by terrorists. And if the terrorists will -- terrorism will stop, maybe you can get the people together and say, well, we're going to live in peace, but I think we're a long way from that.

BLITZER: Do you think it's a good idea for Senator Lieberman and others to be coming up with a very pro-Israel resolution in advance of Sharon's meeting next week with President Bush at the White House?

SHELBY: Well, I am a co-sponsor in that resolution. I believe it is a good resolution. It's basically a statement that Israel has a right to survive, that we understand that. We've been a friend, but at the same time we're a friend of the Muslim world. We want to be their friends. We want to bring peace to the area. We can't do it by ourself. You have to get the parties together.

BLITZER: One other question. You oversee your committee oversees, the CIA. What kind of specific direct role, if any, will the CIA have in implementing these latest breakthrough agreements?

SHELBY: Well I'm not sure that's good policy. I have always voiced those concerns that the CIA should be a provider of intelligence and not a carrying -- a group to carry out policy. Some people think otherwise, but I believe if we keep the CIA providing intelligence and rather than carrying out policy, we'll be better off and so will the CIA.

BLITZER: Will the CIA though carry out policy right now?

SHELBY: Well, they're carrying out policy and I'm not sure that's a good thing.

BLITZER: Senator Shelby, always good to have you on the program. Thanks very much.

Now to the U.S. war on terror: Another plane-load of Afghan war detainees has arrived at the U.S. Naval Base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The 30 or so detainees join about 300 others being held at the base. All are suspected al Qaeda or Taliban fighters.

In Afghanistan, meanwhile, the United States has been relying heavily on intelligence. Most of you probably think when you hear the word intelligence, you begin to hear CIA. But there is another agency that's considered the nation's largest, most important and, until recently, most secretive. James Bamford takes us inside the National Security Agency and his new book, "Body Of Secrets." Welcome James Bamford to our program.

How good is U.S. intelligence right now in trying to find, thwart if you will, additional terror incidents but going after these terrorists?

JAMES BAMFORD, AUTHOR, "BODY OF SECRETS": Well, it is very difficult for the intelligence agencies. During the Cold War they were basically focused on one big country that had fixed sights for naval bases, air force bases and so forth. They were never really designed to follow a handful of people around the world or try to identify one person that happens to be one place in the world or following Osama bin Laden.

So it's extremely difficult. I mean, they've had all these months since the attack and they haven't once even picked up a phone call with Osama bin Laden on it, so it's extremely difficult.

BLITZER: You tell us in the book about how he communicates and when he uses intermediaries, he's never on the phone.

BAMFORD: No, he learned his lesson. The N.S.A. actually had intercepted his calls for a number of years. And then they listened to him talk to his mother. They would actually sort of brag about it to high level officials in the intelligence community by playing these tapes of bin Laden talking to his mother. But he never talked about planning terrorist activities on the phone.

And then after the Clinton Administration sent cruise missiles in to attack him in Afghanistan in 1998, he learned that a cell phone could also be used as a targeting instrument and from that point on the NSA and U.S. intelligence has never picked up bin Laden on his phone again.

BLITZER: In the book -- the paper back edition of "Body of Secrets" you point out that they did, U.S. intelligence, monitor a call before September 11 that might have given an indication that something big was out there, but they never flagged it to the right people?

BAMFORD: Well, that's one of the problems. There's so much information out there and so many people to pass the information on to, a lot of times they'll get the right information, but it won't get to the correct person until it is too late to use the information.

BLITZER: That still exists right now.

BAMFORD: What they're trying to do right now is reorganize and it is like moving an aircraft carrier in the middle of the ocean. It takes a long of time to switch from focusing on the Soviet Union and the communist world to focusing on terrorists running around the world.

BLITZER: Let me read a provocative sentence you write in the new section of the book, "Adding to the programs, the agency has been spread far too thinly," -- we are referring to the National Security Agency -- "largely as a result of politics, NSA has become burdened with thousands of targets that pose little immediate risk to the nation while drawing critical resources away from those like bin Laden and al Qaeda, that are truly dangerous and time sensitive."

What do you mean "largely as a rule of politics?"

BAMFORD: To some degree there's a lot of pressure to collect intelligence along the Chinese coast. A lot of that is not really necessary. That's where we had the incident with the EP3 plane going down.

Following the terrorists around the world I think is far more relevant and should take up far more money and time of what the NSA is using rather than trying to follow where a trawler happens to be going off the Chinese coast.

BLITZER: NSA, the used to call it "No Such Agency" but thanks to you and a few others, we know a lot more about this NSA than we used to. James Bamford, thanks for joining us.

BAMFORD: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Appreciate it very much. Today is the first day of the fifth month of the year, or as it's more popularly known around the world, May Day. May Day observations are said to go back to druid rites or ancient celebrations of spring in Rome, Egypt and India. But in more recent times, May 1 also has become identified with workers' movements and political protests. Around the world today, May Day was the occasion for a wide variety of demonstrations.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): In France, they either love him or hate him. In Paris, more than a million people marched against the extreme right leader and presidential candidate, Jean-Marie le Pen. By the statue of Joan of Arc, le Pen countered with his own rally. The crowds much smaller, only in the tens of thousands, but still his biggest show of public support so far.

On the streets of Berlin, rioting throughout the day and into the night. Neo-Nazis and anti-neo-Nazi protesters clashed with police and each other.

In Sydney, Australia, mounted police charged anticapitalist protesters there. Violence also erupted during pro-refugee marches.

In Havana, more than a million Cubans marched to the plaza of the revolution. Their main issue: Latin American criticism of Fidel Castro. In Calcutta, India, sex workers took to the streets for their own cause: Labor rights for prostitutes.

In South Korea, 10,000 workers rally in Seoul's business district. Their target: U.S. auto giant General Motors and their takeover of Daewoo Motors. That deal finalized yesterday.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Tonight on CNN: Christiane Amanpour will be live from Paris, on the rise of the extreme right in Europe. That's at 8:00 Eastern, 5:00 Pacific.

Two fallen stars hit the criminal justice system: Robert Blake pleads for bail, Jayson Williams indicted for manslaughter. The latest on both when we return.

Plus, the genesis of terror. A CNN exclusive: Where the idea for the September 11 come from? We may have the answer.

And...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): What's the worst thing a pedicure could do to you? This.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The dirt on nail salons: How a little bit of pampering can turn into a very nasty infection.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: From our justice files, two high-profile legal cases. Former NBA player, Jayson Williams, is indicted for manslaughter in connection with the shooting death of a limo driver. The seven-count indictment also includes evidence and witness tampering.

You may remember limo driver Costas Christofi was found dead of gunshot wounds at Williams' home. And this other note, actor Robert Blake was back in court this afternoon, asking to be released on bail. He has been in jail since mid-April, charged with killing his wife last year.

Let's take a look at all of these legal issues, joining me now, the former LA district attorney, Ira Reiner, and in Atlanta, CNN's new legal analyst, Jeffrey Toobin. Thanks to both of you. Jeffrey Toobin also of course works for the "New Yorker."

Jeffrey, first of all, new papers files today. We learned something new that prosecutors are alleging about Robert Blake, didn't we?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, CNN's Jeff Feldman is in the courtroom as we speak, and he reports that the prosecutors are making a startling new claim in their effort to defeat bail.

Previously in the complaint the prosecution alleged that the conspiracy to kill Bonny Bakley began in March of 2001. She was killed two months later. Today in court the prosecutors are claiming that in the winter of 1999 a year and a half earlier, Blake went to a private investigator and asked to have his wife forced to have an abortion or whacked. So they are now making another claim that Blake made yet another attempt to get someone to kill his wife. If true, very devastating evidence.

BLITZER: If true, obviously it would be. Ira Reiner, what does it say to you, this new information released by the prosecution?

IRA REINER, FMR. LA DISTRICT ATTY.: Well, Wolf a defendant in a criminal case is usually entitled, as a matter of right, to bail. But there is an exception: Where a person is charged with special circumstances in California that carries with it the potential sentence of life without the possibility of parole, a defendant does not have a right to bail.

That is not to say that the judge cannot in the judge's discretion grant bail. And so the district attorney's office is trying to persuade the court that the court should not grant bail. That is why they are showing their hand now instead of waiting until the preliminary hearing.

BLITZER: Mr. Reiner, does it make any difference that the prosecution is not seeking the death penalty as far as the question of bail is concerned? They're seeking only -- and I use the word only, obviously in quotes -- life without the possibility of parole?

REINER: Well, technically it does not make a difference, but subjectively it might. By that I mean, because it carries with it a sentence of life without the possibility of parole, that the defendant is not entitled to bail. Just as if the district attorney's office was seeking the death penalty.

But in terms of the judge's discretion, in a death penalty case, it would be unheard of for the judge to release a defendant on bail, but on a "life without" case, it is rare, very, very rare but not entirely out of the question.

BLITZER: Jeffrey Toobin, would you be amazed if the judge lets Robert Blake go out on bail?

TOOBIN: I would and I think it's a real illustration of how much the whole subject of bail has changed in recent years. In the not so old days there really only used to be two questions: is there a risk of flight, will the defendant flee, and is he a danger to the community?

Both of those questions Harland Braun could make a pretty good argument that he's not going to flee, and that he's not dangerous to anyone else. But in recent years because of tough on crime laws and tough on crime judges, the idea of right to bail, the fact that most people get bail, that's really out the window. And in serious cases, frankly almost no one gets bail and Blake probably won't either.

BLITZER: What do you make, Jeffrey, while I have you, of this indictment of Jayson Williams, the former NBA star, indictment on manslaughter charges in connection with the shooting death of the limo driver?

TOOBIN: Well, this is really a follow-on to what happened last week when one of his friends pled guilty to obstruction of justice. The worst danger for Jayson Williams is not so much the manslaughter case, because that's an unintentional crime, but now the prosecution has a cooperating defendant, someone who has pled guilty saying, I tampered with that evidence and I tried to make the evidence look like this was a suicide and I did that at the instigation of Jayson Williams.

He's now facing both those charges in court and he is a world of trouble too.

BLITZER: Ira, I know you're not following it too closely, but what do you make of these developments in the Jayson Williams case?

REINER: Well, I think Jeff has it exactly right that the real trouble that he's in, is not what he did initially, that is allegedly through gross negligence caused the death of this individual, but what he did after the fact, and that is trying to cover it up. It so often happen so often, that the most serious charge comes not from the crime that's initially under investigation, but what you do after the crime was committed in order to cover it up.

BLITZER: Ira Reiner reminding us that sometimes the cover up is even worse than the original crime. And I believe that Richard Nixon, Jeffrey Toobin, learned that didn't he? TOOBIN: It's funny, that rule, the cover up is usually worse than the crime. It is sort of a Washington saying, but it is true here in New Jersey and it is true across the criminal justice system.

BLITZER: All right. Gentlemen, please stand by. We're still awaiting that bail hearing in Los Angeles. We are going to get Charles Feldman, once he emerges we going to go to him live. We are going to get your analysis. Stand by, we'll be back to you later this hour as that story unfolds.

Our Web question of the day: Do you think that justice works differently for celebrities such as Robert Blake and Jayson Williams? Vote at cnn.com/wolf. While you're there, let me know what you are thinking. Send me your comments and I'll read some of them on the air each day. Also, read my daily on-line column at cnn.com/wolf.

Nineteen hijackers delivered the most devastating attacks on U.S. soil, but where did the idea come from?

We are not getting some information about some breaking news. Jeffrey Toobin, what are you hearing?

TOOBIN: Our Charles Feldman is reporting that there is no bail for Robert Blake. He will remain in prison pending his trial. So as expected no bail for Blake.

BLITZER: All right, so obviously it is not a surprise Jeffrey Toobin, no bail for Robert Blake. It would have been as you and Ira were just telling our viewers it would have been a huge development if there would have been bail.

TOOBIN: It would have been. It is somewhat of a goad to make the trial get going faster because no defendant wants to stay in jail longer than he has to, but also as a practical matter it is much tougher for defendants to prepare for trial while incarcerated. So in addition to just the misery of being in jail, it is not good for his chances of winning in court either.

BLITZER: Ira Reiner, since everybody assumed this was such a long shot that he would be released on bail, why did his attorneys even attempt to go down this road?

REINER: Nothing to lose, Wolf, nothing to lose by asking. You know, on the question of bail, there is one additional point to be made and that is there's going to be a preliminary hearing set. I believe today is the day they're going to set that date.

At the preliminary hearing it is possible that the special circumstance will not survive. That is the defendant, Mr. Blake, will be held to answer for the charges, but not the special circumstances because that is a bit of a stretch. It may survive, it may not.

If it does not survive, then when Blake goes to the superior court for a second arraignment, then he may be given bail because he would be entitled to bail in a "non-life without" case.

BLITZER: All right. What do you think about that, Jeffrey?

TOOBIN: Well, forgive me. I heard some more news from Charles Feldman here in Atlanta. The court did not set a preliminary hearing date. They're going to be back in court on May 21st to set that date. So there is no preliminary hearing date set, which is a normal scheduling matter, not significant.

BLITZER: And tell our viewers, this May 23...

TOOBIN: May 21.

BLITZER: May 21 date, that's just to set a date for the preliminary hearing which could be weeks or months down the road after that, right?

TOOBIN: It could be weeks or months and in fact Harland Braun told me a few days ago that he wants the preliminary hearing four or five months from now. He says the prosecutors have had a year to study this case. He's been given thousands of pages of evidence.

So I think people are going to see that the California judicial system grinds on rather slowly and after two weeks of fairly quick developments the progress of this case may move considerably slowly for the next few months.

BLITZER: Ira Reiner, you know the judicial system in Los Angeles quite well. You're a former DA there. Is Harland Braun, the defense attorney representing Robert Blake, is he likely to get his wish of four months for this preliminary hearing?

REINER: Well, I don't know whether the judge is going to grant that. I do know the district attorney's office will very strongly oppose it. Normally a defendant is entitled to and is indeed required to have the preliminary hearing within 10 days of the arraignment.

Well, that's essentially today. But the defendant's also entitled to be prepared for that preliminary hearing and at the arraignment 10 days ago the D.A.'s office gave Harland Braun I believe 12 boxes of documents containing tens of thousands of pages. So he is entitled to a reasonable amount of time to review that material before the preliminary hearing.

Four, five months tacked on top of the fact that the 21st it already been a month, is too long. Perhaps another month would be more than sufficient.

BLITZER: All right. Ira Reiner and Jeffrey Toobin thanks for joining us. And once again to recap, no bail allowed for Robert Blake. He'll stay in prison while all the judicial procedures continue.

We have other breaking news as well, Kofi Annan the U.N. secretary general has just announced that he will disband the proposed U.N. fact-finding mission that was supposed to go into the West Bank refugee camp Jenin to investigate allegations by Palestinians that Israeli military forces engaged in a massacre of Palestinians. Israel as you know has resisted the terms of reference for that fact-finding mission. Also the make up of the commission as a result of Israel's opposition. Kofi Annan announcing just now that that mission will no longer go forward. He will disband that mission despite the U.N. security council resolution that approved it.

Our Charles Feldman is now right outside the courthouse in Los Angeles where we just learned, Charles, as you know, thanks to you, that there won't be any bail for Robert Blake. Give us the flavor, take us inside that courtroom. Tell us what happened.

CHARLES FELDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, as you said, first of all, there will be no bail at least for the time being. The judge says he reserves the right to grant bail after he hears evidence presented at a preliminary hearing, but that's going to be some time to come. So for now, Robert Blake will remain inside.

Now, at one point during the hearing, Robert Blake himself interrupted his attorney, raised his hand and said that he would like to address the court. The reason for this was because his lawyer was making the argument that Robert Blake needed to be out of jail because he has to hear the physical evidence against him because he has dyslexia. And in prison, according to his attorney, in jail, he would be unable to actually read the documents.

At that point, Robert Blake raised his hand, asked to address the court. The judge granted that. And in a very emotional but brief speech, Robert Blake talked about how he was severely dyslexic. He said that there's documentation that he also has suffered brain damage, that throughout his career, he was never able to read scripts. He had to hear them. And because of this, he needed to be outside so that he could hear with his own ears the thousands of pages of evidence that prosecutors and detectives have against him. At one point, he also said that he no longer respected the news media, the police or his country because of the way he has been treated this past year. But later, he again stood up and told the court that he apologized for saying that he no longer respected his country.

As I said, Wolf, the judge said that he was not unsympathetic to Robert Blake's arguments and that he would reserve the right to grant bail after a preliminary hearing. But for now, the judge said the laws in the state of California say that because he is charged with a capital crime, he cannot get bail -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Charles Feldman outside the courthouse where he just learned along with the rest of us, of course, that Robert Blake will not get bail. Thanks so much for that report.

When we come back, stun guns in the cockpit. Could they do more harm than good? We'll have a hands-on live demonstration here in our studio.

Also, suffocating cities, American air quality in decline. But first, today's "News Quiz."

Which city has the worst pollution: Los Angeles, Mexico City, Cairo, New Delhi? The answer coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Harland Braun, the defense attorney for Robert Blake, is speaking to reporters outside the courthouse. His client was just denied bail. Let's listen in.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

HARLAND BRAUN, ROBERT BLAKE'S ATTORNEY: ... the GSR on the clothing is misleading, unfounded and scientifically unreliable, says the LAPD, then, except if it is on the hands. Then I have got a pack that shows you an actual GSR kit, front and back. And the back says, do not give a GSR test if the person is carrying a gun, which Robert obviously was. So that's invalid.

Also, I'm giving you a page of the analyzed evidence report showing that there's no blood on his clothing. So that is inconclusive, but they didn't tell the judge about that either. So what we're looking -- we have, as far as I can tell, and I think you should ask the prosecution this, there is no witnesses to the killing and there's no scientific link. What I've done actually is I've got a few copies of this, if you want it. I will just leave it.

QUESTION: (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

BRAUN: Yes. You know, he said he was going to do it. I tried to discourage it. It is uncomfortable sometimes for a lawyer, but he feels so strongly about this case and he feels so strongly about dyslexia that he feels like -- I don't know, the analogy he used was it would be like the Lakers would put Shaq in a cell for the whole season, let him practice five minutes everyday with the rest, and then put them out on the floor to play another team. He said, how do I fight? I'm in a locked cell. I can't read. You lawyers have to talk to me, sometimes through glass. How is this fair?

And it's one thing you can see in this hearing, he's being held without bail when there's no claim that he is a flight risk or no claim that is he is a danger to society. So what in the world are they holding him in jail? And the reason they are is because they do not want him to be able to fight back against their case. They would like the advantage of being -- him being in custody. How would Mr. Dixon like it if he were in custody during the pendancy (ph) of this case?

QUESTION: Are you saying that the gunshot residue test that the prosecution provided are somehow manufactured then?

BRAUN: No, they were phony. They were gunshot residue tests that were provided by the coroner's office that just showed gunshot residue on the clothing. But when the clothing was taken to LAPD, LAPD understands that it is misleading, unfounded, unreliable, lacks scientific foundation. Can you imagine giving reports to a judge without the full explanation? I mean...

QUESTION: Excuse me. But that doesn't mean that it is phony. I mean, what you are saying is that you have a coroner's report that says one thing and the LAPD report that says you can't necessarily take it at its face value.

BRAUN: No. It is totally phony because it was used to prove to the judge that there was some link between the homicide and Mr. Blake because that is what it was in there for. It was phony because they didn't give the whole story. You can lie by a half-truth, and that shows to you a certain desperation.

QUESTION: But you are not saying that they didn't find gun residue on his clothes or on his body?

BRAUN: No, absolutely not. That's not -- but it is not meaningless.

QUESTION: Harland, this is very important here. Substitution of counsel, can you tell us what's that about? Are one of the lawyers in this case trying to drop out of this matter?

BRAUN: Yes. You understand that in this case, the plan was to try to squeeze Mr. Caldwell to testify against Mr. Blake and even to squeeze him, as I understand, to tell us what we want to hear. They somehow thought that he would lie in order to save himself. And obviously, Arna (ph) is a very tough, experienced lawyer and they don't like that she is representing Mr. Caldwell.

So, now their maneuver is to try to get Arna (ph) away from Mr. Caldwell so then they figure that maybe they can squeeze him some more. So that's a maneuver that won't get anywhere. Their basis of it is that Mr. Blake is paying Arna's fees, but, you know, Arna will do what is the best for Mr. Caldwell. I mean, no one complains when Enron pays their executive fees or McDonald-Douglas pays fees or the city council pays for city councilmen. But all of a sudden, when Mr. Blake pays for his assistance fees, the prosecution is up in arms. So, that will be heard another time.

QUESTION: Mr. Braun, how much of the brain damage will come before the jury? Do you think that's something that will help your case?

QUESTION: Did that surprise you when he said that?

BRAUN: Yes, I know that he is dyslexic. You know, it took a while for me to learn exactly what dyslexia is. I think he tries to conceal it because he is ashamed of it and he tries to hide it. I don't think the brain damage is going to be -- for the jury, it doesn't seem to be quite relevant. I guess I know Deli mentioned that is he always leaving things and dropping things and has trouble with sequential things. So it might have something do with an explanation of his conduct that night.

QUESTION: Harland, did you know he was going to speak out today?

BRAUN: He said that he might. I tried to discourage it, but I think -- but, you know, I'm not the defendant. I think he has the right to speak out if he wants to, and he did. QUESTION: Do you think he made the point better than you could have?

BRAUN: Oh, yes. I don't really know anything about dyslexia. He feels very strongly about. And I sort of regard it as sort of difficult reading. I didn't realize that it is sequential reasoning, it's memory, it's all kinds of problems that he has.

QUESTION: What happens on the 21st? Is that the preliminary hearing date or what?

BRAUN: No. The 21st will have the prosecution's motion get rid of Arna because they don't like her. And they are so petulant. I mean, they have no sense of humor. I mean, I can't believe that. They want everything their own way. They even want to choose the lawyers for the defendants. I'm sure they wouldn't have me around if they could get rid of me.

Then, the judge will determine when we can have a preliminary hearing. At that point, we might argue about bail again. Remember, when a judge denies bail, it is never without prejudice. So if we learn some more about their case that would maybe change the judge's mind next time, we will make another motion.

QUESTION: When will the preliminary hearing be, do you think?

BRAUN: I really don't know. We have to get all of the discovery. My guess it would be three months or so.

BLITZER: All right. That's Harland Braun. He is the defense attorney representing actor Robert Blake who is accused of murdering his wife. Harland Braun speaking out after the judge denied bail for Robert Blake, saying that was not going to be appropriate. Right now, the next step would be May 21, when there will be a hearing to determine when there will be an actual preliminary hearing. Harland Braun we just heard saying he hopes that will be three months down the road. We are going to continue to monitor this story.

We are also monitoring another development, potentially important in Bethlehem around the Church of the Nativity, where Israeli forces have surrounded the church. Inside believed to be a few dozen Palestinians, armed Palestinians. We are now being told that there has been some exchange of gunfire, some large exchange of gunfire around the church. We are trying to check that out. We are going to continue to follow that.

We will take a quick break. We'll update you on what's happening in Bethlehem when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're following a developing story in Bethlehem, where heavy gunfire is being heard around the Church of the Nativity, where some two dozens or so Palestinian gunmen have been holed up inside. Looking at these pictures, we're trying to find out precisely what is going on. But in Manger Square in Bethlehem, loud exchange of gunfire. Our Walter Rodgers is standing by in Bethlehem. He is on the phone. Walter, what are you seeing and hearing?

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, about 45 minutes ago, there was a fairly substantial exchange of gunfire. The Israeli Defense Force spokesman here in Bethlehem is reporting that the Israeli forces who are in Manger Square were receiving fire from inside the church. The fire, as I say, extended for about 45 minutes. I could hear a lot of kalashnikovs being shot in the air. Now those are, of course, the weapons the Palestinians generally use.

BLITZER: And is it quiet now, Walter? What's happening right now? We're looking at live pictures of the church in Manger Square in Bethlehem.

RODGERS: The IDF says there is now a fire in that area. I am too low in the building to see the square itself. If indeed there is a fire there, that would, of course, be very tragic because it's a very old building. It has suffered fires before, and the Church of the Nativity has a wooden roof which could be very, very serious if indeed the exchange of fire ignited a fire in that church.

Again, we have a report to that effect now. We're going to check it out straight away. The problem, of course, here is that we're under a strict curfew. We literally cannot go out on the streets. So what I'd like to do is go up on the roof, see what we can see from up there.

BLITZER: All right. Walter Rodgers is on the scene in Bethlehem. Go ahead, Walter. Check it out. Let us know. Obviously, it would be very disturbing if in fact there is a fire that has broken out in or around the Church of the Nativity, a holy site, obviously in Manger Square in Bethlehem. We're going to continue to monitor this development. We'll be back to Walter Rodgers once he gets back and he can update us.

In the meantime, let's take another look at an important development that CNN has learned in the war on terrorism. When terrorists deliberately flew airliners to World Trade Center and the Pentagon, it was a tactic almost no one had anticipated. There's a new theory about how the idea originated. CNN national correspondent Mike Boettcher reports that the attack may have been inspired by the crash of a Egyptian air -- Egyptair Flight 990.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): October 31, 1999. Egyptair Flight 990 takes off from New York with 217 people on board. Thirty minutes later, as it is flying off the coast of Massachusetts, south of Nantucket, the plane disappears from radar and plunges into the Atlantic Ocean. Everyone onboard dies. Accident, or act of terror?

Within days, as the cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder are recovered, another possibility emerges. Jim Hall was chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board at the time.

JIM HALL, FORMER NTSB CHAIRMAN: You hear the cockpit door close some seconds after that...

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(INTERRUPTED FOR BREAKING NEWS)

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