Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Breaking News: Rescue Helicopter Crashes Near Mt. Hood
Aired May 30, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. We're following a breaking story out of Oregon. Mount Hood, where this helicopter, a rescue helicopter that was there to rescue people. Obviously the helicopter just crashed only minutes ago. It was on live television. Listen to the broadcaster in Oregon reporting this live from KGW, our affiliate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a movie. You see the helicopter. You saw the tail go into the mountain and just blew apart rolling down the hillside. Oh, good Lord. Oh, my goodness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And there it was only a few moments ago on Mount Hood in Oregon. The rescue helicopter, a Black Hawk helicopter, going in to try to help rescue what we're told some seven individuals.
Three are now reportedly dead, four others trapped in a crevasse on Mount Hood after they fell during a climbing expedition earlier today. Several people obviously were involved in this major rescue operation continuing despite the downing of that helicopter.
You're now looking at live pictures from Mount Hood in Oregon. Let's bring in our military affairs correspondent, our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre. He's over at the Pentagon. You've been watching this, Jamie, with the rest of us in horror and disbelief.
Tell us a little bit about this military helicopter.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Black Hawk is really one of the helicopters of choice if you're going to have to operate at these kinds of high altitudes.
The Black Hawk has got a very powerful engine. It can really in helicopter terms "beat the air" they call it. You know the higher you get, the thinner the air is, the more lift you need to keep the helicopter up, and when you get into these high altitudes, you can often be right at the limits of the operating range of some of these helicopters.
That's why, again, the Black Hawk, the newer helicopter is really considered the helicopter you want to be in, in these kind of high altitudes.
Now it's very hard, of course, to see what happened in this particular accident, but it appeared that as the helicopter was moving over the ridge, it appeared to lose a little lift under the rotors and rotated a little bit.
And, of course, once you do that and you're hovering that close to the ground, all it takes is to come in contact with the earth at any point and you're out of control, and that appeared to be what happened as the helicopter rolled down the side of the mountain, the rotors breaking off.
The good part of it was it didn't burst into flames. It didn't break up. One of the big dangers of being in a helicopter crash with a Black Hawk is that the engine compartment is right over the top of where the passengers are, and it can if it breaks up, that big engine can come down and kill people in the helicopter.
If all of the people were strapped in, and as you know you've probably been in these Black Hawks, there are very secure harnesses that hold you in dead seats inside the Black Hawk. About 12 people can be in there. They are all strapped in.
They could theoretically survive that roll down the hill, perhaps with some injuries, but of course we can't tell at this point if anybody survived.
BLITZER: Jamie, stand by. I want to replay for our viewers who may just be joining us what exactly happened as this Black Hawk helicopter attempted a rescue operation, a rescue mission, and I want our viewers to listen to what our separate KGW helicopter pilot was reporting live at the time. Let's replay that videotape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't have a whole lot of wiggle room there is anything goes wrong, and there it is waving off, so I didn't see anybody go up -- look out. Look out, guys.
There we are talking about things going wrong. Hang on, fellows. Oh, my goodness. Oh, that is horrible. Good Lord. Oh, fellows. Oh, my goodness. You're watching this live, folks. Oh, if only this was a movie. You've seen the helicopter. You saw the tail go into the mountain, and it just flew apart, rolling down the hillside. Oh, good Lord. Oh, my goodness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And there is the videotape from our affiliate KGW in Portland, Oregon. The pilot of a separate helicopter watching all of this on live television, as this rescue operation continued.
Mount Hood, some 11,000 feet high, the climbers, seven of them, we're told, were just about 800 feet from the summit of Mount Hood when obviously they got trapped. A rescue operation was ordered. That military helicopter, the Black Hawk, went in and eventually as we just saw crashed.
Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent, has been in a Black Hawk. He knows these helicopters quite well. Jamie, you're saying that there's a good chance that the pilot and others inside the helicopter managed to come out OK, because they would be protected, strapped in, as that helicopter rolled the side of that mountain?
MCINTYRE: Well, of course, there's no way to know exactly what they would have sustained, but the positive part of it just from looking at the tape is we could see that the helicopter didn't break up. The rotors broke off as it rolled down the hill.
The passengers inside would normally be, and the crew would normally be in a four-point harness that would hold them pretty securely into the seat. They would have helmets on as well, and without the helicopter breaking up, there is -- it's entirely possible that people could survive that kind of a crash because there was no fire, because there was no breakup of the helicopter.
Again, it looked like the helicopter momentarily lost a little lift as it was coming around the ridge. When you're operating above 10,000 feet, there's very little lift. It requires very powerful rotor action in order to keep the helicopter hovering like that.
The Black Hawk is very good at that, though, and it's a very powerful engine and that's why if you're operating at high altitudes, that's the kind of helicopter you want to have.
It's impossible to say what exactly happened in this case, but once the helicopter touched the ground, it begins to spin out of control and you have no room to recover when you're only a few feet off the ground. We can only hope for the best at this point.
BLITZER: Jamie, I want you to stand by. I want to bring in on the phone retired Major General Don Shepperd, our military affairs analyst who's very familiar with these Black Hawk helicopters.
A lot of our viewers, General Shepperd, will remember the Black Hawk from "Black Hawk Down," the incident that occurred in Somalia in Mogadishu about a decade or so ago.
I don't know if you saw the actual crash of this helicopter. If you did, I'm going to have our producers replay that one more time so you get a sense. You're looking at live pictures now, but let's look at the videotape.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED PILOT: You don't have a whole lot of wiggle room there is anything goes wrong, and there it is waving off, so I didn't see anybody go up -- look out. Look out, guys.
There we are talking about things going wrong. Hang on, fellows. Oh, my goodness. Oh, that is horrible. Good Lord. Oh, fellows. Oh, my goodness. You're watching this live, folks. Oh, if only this was a movie. You've seen the helicopter. You saw the tail go into the mountain, and it just flew apart, rolling down the hillside. Oh, good Lord.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: General Shepperd, you obviously were in the Air Force. This is an Army helicopter, but tell us from your aviation background what we just saw.
MAJ. GEN. DONALD SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Basically, Wolf, a standard helicopter crash at high altitude. When you're at high altitude in these particular situations, you're right on the edge of the capabilities of the aircraft.
I don't know what the load of the aircraft was. I don't know who was in it, how heavy, how much gas they had on board, but you're right the capability of the lift capability of the airplane itself. It can only hold so much. The air is thin.
I don't know what the wind currents are up there, but obviously what happened was it looked to me like a standard blade stall and they ran out of lift on the blade at that high altitude. There's no room to recover. He couldn't turn left. He couldn't turn right from the pictures I saw. There was no place to put the nose down and dive out of trouble there.
BLITZER: General, is it normal for these kinds of helicopters to operate: A) at that high altitude; and B) in that kind of cold weather?
SHEPPERD: Well, the cold weather actually helps. The colder the better, the more engine capability you have, and again you have to go where the action is.
For instance, in Afghanistan, our helicopters are operating at very high altitudes over there, but they're not -- helicopters are not designed for real, real high altitude operations.
I don't know what altitude this is. I can't tell from the picture I'm looking at, but my guess is that it's up there around the area of 13,000, 14,000, 15,000 feet. That's at the edge of the capability of helicopters with any kind of load on them.
BLITZER: It's about 11,000 feet, the summit at Mount Hood, and we're looking at these live pictures as this rescue operation continues. Thanks to our affiliate KGW.
General, in Portland, Oregon we're looking at these live pictures.
Seven, we're told; seven climbers got caught in an accident as they approached the summit of Mount Hood. They were about 800 feet from the top of Mount Hood in Oregon. Three of them have apparently died, according to reports. Four others are still trapped and a rescue operation was, of course, ordered.
The rescue operation in turn triggered the crash of that Black Hawk helicopter. Presumably other helicopters might be on the way. Would that be a good idea though, general, to send in more? We see a second helicopter right there in addition to our helicopter from our KGW affiliate, which is providing these live pictures.
SHEPPERD: Well, the question is are you going to be able to rescue people at that altitude? Before you send in another helicopter, you will plan it very carefully.
You'll consider the conditions, the altitude, the temperature. You'll re-look at all of it. But the answer is yes, they will send another helicopter to go rescue, because it is possible to operate at these altitudes.
It looks like for whatever reason there was a blade stall on this helicopter and, again, he ran out of lift. I can't tell much more from just watching the pictures.
BLITZER: Is there...
SHEPPERD: It appears he lost control and the aircraft plunged.
BLITZER: Is there perhaps a better helicopter suited for this kind of rescue operation than a Black Hawk?
SHEPPERD: Well, there are actual helicopters that are designed for rescue, HH-60 helicopters, and I don't know their availability in that particular region right now, so if you could get people who are actually trained in rescue, but again you're operating at the edge of the capability at these altitudes.
BLITZER: These Army Black Hawk helicopters have a pretty good track record. I pointed out earlier one, of course, was shot down over Mogadishu in Somalia in the early 1990s. But generally, the Army's pretty happy with these Black Hawks, aren't they?
SHEPPERD: They're very good. They're very reliable airplanes. And you know in this particular case, you can't tell if something mechanical went wrong with the aircraft as well.
But again the mechanics, if something mechanical went wrong it could cause the blade stall and the loss of lift and thereby the crash after that. So you can't tell if this was human error just by watching an accident. Again, it could be a mechanical failure.
BLITZER: I was like Jamie McIntyre and I'm sure you, I was in one of those Black Hawks on several occasions. Jamie, our senior Pentagon correspondent, pointed out that you're strapped in well and presumably, even though the helicopter crashed at a relatively low altitude, it was not very high off the snow when it hit the side of Mount Hood and then it rolled over several times.
There's a good chance, general, that everybody will turn out to be just fine inside that helicopter, isn't that true?
SHEPPERD: There's a very good chance. First of all, you notice that there was no fire explosion, which very often accompanies one of these things. So there's a very good chance that everyone in there survived. The other thing, as Jamie reminds me, is when you're operating right over snow, you have a condition where you can't tell, your depth perception is very greatly affected and it could be that a blade struck on a steep slope, struck the edge of snow because it's very difficult depth perception wise to tell how high you are. So again, all speculation without knowing exactly what happened and just watching it from a distance on TV.
BLITZER: All right, general, stand by as we continue to look at these live pictures from KGW, a CNN affiliate helicopter on the scene at Mount Hood watching this rescue operation continue to unfold.
For those viewers who may just be tuning in, one military rescue helicopter, an Army Black Hawk helicopter crashed just moments ago while attempting a rescue operation. Three climbers, we're told are now dead. Four others are in trouble. They fell into a crevasse alongside of the mountain.
Quoting one individual involved in the rescue operation, Jamie Carne (ph): "We have seven people involved, three fatalities out of those." The climbers were almost at the summit, almost at the top of Mount Hood, about 800 feet from the top of the mountain, which has an elevation of around 11,000 feet, when they went down.
Let's look at the tape one more time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is there it is waving off, so I didn't see anybody go up -- look out. Look out, guys.
There we are talking about things going wrong. Hang on, fellows. Oh, my goodness. Oh that is horrible. Good Lord. Oh, fellows. Oh, my goodness. You're watching this live, folks. Oh, if only this was a movie. You've seen the helicopter. You saw the tail go into the mountain, and it just flew apart, rolling down the hillside. Oh, good Lord. Oh, my goodness.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: A very, very sad moment indeed. We'll be, of course, following up to find out the status of the individuals, the pilot and the others inside that Black Hawk helicopter.
I want to bring in our Miles O'Brien. He's a pilot himself, knows a lot about these helicopters. Miles, we're told that the weather was absolutely beautiful, according to eyewitnesses, a clear sunny day atop Mount Hood in Oregon when this accident occurred.
Tell us a little bit more about this helicopter and what you saw, your interpretation from that crash.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a couple of things. I just want to reiterate, of course, what Don Shepperd said. When you're at that altitude and you're fully loaded with fuel and who knows how many crew members on board, you're right on the margins of the capability of a helicopter because the air is thinner. There's just not as much lift that is generated. The engines don't perform as well because they don't have as much air running through them.
But a couple of things to point out here, Wolf, first of all, looks can be deceiving in these situations. That kind of looks to me like it was sort of a box canyon. He really didn't have anyplace to go.
Several years ago, I had an opportunity to fly a helicopter right to the top of the lava dome at Mt. St. Helen's, not too far from that location as a matter of fact. It was a day just like you saw. It was very pristine. It looked like a beautiful day.
We got up to the top of that lava dome, and the wind was spinning around like it was a rotor. We tried several times just to land on top of that dome to hook up with some U.S. Geological Survey scientists who were doing some work there.
We couldn't do it. It was truly a hair-raising moment. We ended up landing further down the mountain and had to hike up to get up to do our story.
The point I'm trying to make here is, it looked like a beautiful day. It really wasn't when we got up to that lava dome. The winds can be very deceiving in those situations because of the way they bounce around those canyons.
BLITZER: You're looking, if you have a monitor in front of you, Miles, you're looking at a picture. This looks like videotape from our affiliate KGW in Portland, Oregon, of that downed Black Hawk helicopter along the side of Mount Hood that just crashed.
The Associated Press reporting, five people inside that helicopter. No word on their condition. Miles, stand by. I want to bring back our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre. He's standing by at the Pentagon -- Jamie.
MCINTYRE: A little information from my producer, Mike Mount (ph). He now tells me that this was an Air Force Reserve helicopter from Oregon that was taking part in this rescue mission. As you know, the Air Force has Black Hawks as well as the Army. Of course, the Navy has a version as well called a Sea Hawk.
But this apparently was an Air Force Reserve helicopter, and as we've watched this tape now several times of the helicopter falling down, it appears and I'm watching on a fairly small monitor, that some of the people in the helicopter actually fell out and can be seen on the mountainside.
So it appears that not everyone was fully strapped into this helicopter as it crashed and rolled in the snow. It's difficult to see exactly what's going on. We tried to look at it very carefully as you've been replaying it.
Again, it appears that the helicopter lost lift. It appears that it lost control slightly before it actually came in contact with the ground, but once it did come in contact, the pilot, of course, had no way to recover from that.
The good news is, it didn't burst into flames. It didn't break up. The bad news is it looks like some of the people were thrown out. In one case, it looked like the helicopter might have rolled over top of somebody who fell out of the helicopter.
They appear to be being attended to on the ground there. It's difficult from our vantage point to tell what happened. But again, Air Force Reserve Black Hawk helicopter flying out of Oregon, the Pentagon and the Air Force has not released the identification of the unit and precisely who was onboard at this time. Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Jamie, thank you very much. Stand by. I want to bring you back. I want to continue to monitor this story atop Mount Hood where this rescue operation obviously went afoul.
We're going to continue to follow this development, but we have other stories, important stories we're following as well, two stories first of all involving U.S. national security.
First, nuclear rivals on the brink, President Bush is sending the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on an urgent peace mission to India and Pakistan. He's hoping to stop attacks in what many regard as the most dangerous spot on earth, Kashmir. We'll get to that shortly.
We're also following another matter or urgent concern. CNN learned earlier today the FBI is warning of the potential, repeat potential targeting of commercial airliners in the United States by terrorists armed with shoulder-fired missiles.
The alert went out after investigators concluded that al Qaeda may have tried to shoot down a U.S. military plane in Saudi Arabia this month. Once again, our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre is joining us. He broke the story earlier today -- Jamie.
MCINTYRE: Well, Wolf, let's first of all just talk a little bit about what we're talking about in terms of the threat from these shoulder-fired missiles. Of course the most famous of these is the U.S. made Stinger missile, which was sent to Afghan rebels in the war against the Soviet Union in the 1980s.
These really turned the tide of battle there. They're shoulder- fired missiles, heat seeking. They hone in on the heat of an aircraft. They can fire up to about 13,000 feet; can fire from two or three miles away. At one point during the Afghan war, they were taking down Soviet aircraft at the rate of almost one a day.
Now this warning about the possible use of these against commercial aircraft in the United States is another one of these warnings that's not based on a specific threat but just a general warning. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Law enforcement agencies should be on alert to the potential use of shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles against commercial airliners in the United States warns an FBI intelligence bulletin, obtained by CNN.
The nationwide warning followed a disturbing discovery earlier this month at the Prince Sultan Air Base in Saudi Arabia, first reported by CNN. An empty, expended SA-7 shoulder-fired missile tube was found by a Saudi patrol inside a perimeter fence, approximately two miles from where U.S. planes routinely take off and land.
GENERAL PETER PACE, JOINT CHIEFS VICE CHAIRMAN: There are no reports by any U.S. aircraft or any aircraft that we've been able to identify, of any sightings of surface-to-air missile firings. That does not mean it was not fired. It simply means we do not know if that particular weapon was fired at that location or simply dropped off there.
MCINTYRE: But the FBI now believes terrorists linked to al Qaeda may have tried to shoot down a plane. A May 22 advisory says: "Subsequent investigations suggest that the discovery is likely related to al Qaeda targeting efforts against U.S. led forces on the Arabian Peninsula.
Two days after the FBI alert, airlines and domestic law enforcement agencies were advised of the information but weren't asked to take any specific precautions. In fact, the FBI warning says: "The FBI possesses no information indicating that al Qaeda is planning to use stinger missiles or any type of portable anti-aircraft weapons against commercial aircraft."
PACE: Regardless, we take very seriously the fact that our opponents to have surface-to-air missiles, shoulder-fired surface-to- air missiles, and we take precautions on the ground and in the air anytime we have our aircraft arriving and departing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now, Wolf, today administration officials are downplaying slightly the threat of terrorists actually trying to take down a plane with some of these shoulder-fired missiles, stressing that the FBI alert was intended mainly to educate local police, not to sound an urgent alarm. But these days, nobody wants to be accused of withholding information that might have been of use in potentially thwarting a terrorist attack -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thank you very much. And Stinger missiles, as many of you know, are portable. They're shoulder-fired and they may have won the war in Afghanistan the first time more than a decade ago.
They were supplied by the United States to the anti-Soviet rebels and they were highly effective against Russian planes and helicopters. They could also be deadly in the hands of terrorists as CNN's Bruce Burkhardt reports.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRUCE BURKHARDT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): During the Cold War, the Stinger and its Russian-made counterpart circulated around the world like trading cards, highly-mobile, easy to operate and extremely effective. The Stinger is a short-range surface-to-air missile that uses infrared to lock on to a heat source, such as an aircraft engine. It is not laser guided.
A small rocket fires the missile out of a six-foot tube. Then when the missile is well clear of the person firing it, the main solid rocket engine ignites, sending the missile off at nearly 1,500 miles per hour to an altitude of 11,000 to 13,000 feet where airplanes find themselves when landing or taking of.
The early models, ones from the '60s and '70s, the ones most likely to have fallen into the hands of terrorists, are easily foiled by countermeasures, but more importantly, they have a shelf life, an estimated ten to 12 years. The gas needed to cool the targeting device eventually goes bad.
Still the threat to commercial aircraft is real. Though military aircraft can employ countermeasures, civilian planes don't have that capability.
In October of '98, a passenger jet carrying 40 passengers was shot down in the Eastern Congo by rebel fighters. It's suspected than an SA-7, the Russian version of the Stinger was the weapon used. That missile, apparently, still has some shelf life left.
Bruce Burkhardt, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And as we told you just a few minutes ago, it's considered the single most dangerous spot on earth, at least right now, so much so that President Bush is sending his defense secretary to the region on an urgent mission. Our senior White House correspondent John King has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The president says he is determined al Qaeda not benefit from escalating military tensions between India and Pakistan.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Al Qaeda is a -- they'll find weakness and we are doing everything we can to continue to shore up our efforts on the Pakistani-Afghan border.
KING: Mr. Bush announced after this cabinet meeting, he is dispatching Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to the region, in addition to an already scheduled diplomatic mission by the Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage. Secretary Rumsfeld's mission is to assess the impact of the standoff on the U.S. led war against terrorism, and to remind nuclear neighbors, India and Pakistan, of the stakes.
DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: It's the millions and millions and millions of people who live in those two countries who would be damaged by conflict.
KING: One immediate debate in the Defense and State Departments is whether 63,000 U.S. citizens in both countries and the roughly 1,100 U.S. troops in Pakistan should be moved or evacuated.
BUSH: The secretary is -- both secretaries are analyzing what it would take to protect American lives if need be.
KING: Pakistan said it might move the troops away from the Afghan border and toward the disputed Kashmir region. British troops already are fortifying the Afghan side as a precaution. The Pentagon says U.S. troops might adjust as well.
U.S. officials tell CNN India is preparing conventional warheads for its medium-range Pritvi (ph) missiles. Those are capable of carrying nuclear warheads and some of the Pentagon feel a launch could bring a catastrophic miscalculation.
RUMSFELD: Things have a way of starting and then proceeding in unpredictable ways in life, and certainly wars can escalate in unpredictable ways.
KING: Mr. Bush again puts the burden on Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf, urging him to stop terrorism acts originating on the Pakistani side of Kashmir.
BUSH: He must do so. He said he would do so. We and others are making it clear to him that he must live up to his word.
KING (on camera): The continued incursions have strained relations with a leader who has been a key ally in the war on terrorism. U.S. officials say any Pakistani troop movements away from the Afghan border could cause additional strain, complicating the search for al Qaeda and efforts to keep the president's promise to "patiently hunt these people down."
John King, CNN, the White House.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And while that part of the world is bordering on conflict, perhaps nuclear conflict, this country today is focusing on the spot where it was first attacked on September 11.
A procession of bagpipe players was part of the ceremony, marking the end of recovery efforts at New York City's ground zero. This truck, carrying the last steel beam draped in an American flag followed. Hundreds of workers labored around the clock and removed tons of steel and concrete from the 16 acre site, but the work does not stop.
On Staten Island, investigators and medical staff are going over every cubit remnant found at ground zero. Almost 1,800 victims have yet to be identified.
But those who continue to wait are still waiting tonight for word about their loved ones and those who already know, share the single emotion today. Brian Palmer has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRIAN PALMER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The day began like any other, with New Yorkers making their way to work. A dense spring fog settled briefly over Lower Manhattan.
Emerging from the crowds, firefighters and police officers in dress uniforms, and thousands of ordinary people filing downtown to mark the end of the World Trade Center recovery effort.
Among the mourners and commuters, tourists, a crush of reporters, on duty police officers and other people who felt a need simply to be near Ground Zero on this day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I came to simply be part of now and as I said heal myself and it tends to heal all of us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's part of our life now. We can't change it. We can't go back.
PALMER: The ceremony began at 10:29, the time the first tower imploded. Voices from the crowd and the usual city sounds suddenly stopped.
At the head of the procession a single stretcher symbolizing those who died in the attack, followed by the last steel beam from the Trade Center. Former Mayor Rudy Giuliani marched north with the current mayor and the governor.
The ceremony itself was brief, under an hour. Family members filed out, some holding up photos of loved ones they lost in the attack, others offering support to strangers. They leave as they came, solemnly, tearfully.
Brian Palmer, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: It took more than eight months to finish the recovery at ground zero. Let's take you back to some of the pivotal moments in the operation. On September 11, the pile of debris is 10 stories high. Thousands of rescuers, construction workers, and volunteers begin picking through the burning rubble. The death toll at that point is thought to be more than 6,000.
In December, New York Governor George Pataki says the fires at ground zero are finally out. Later that month, the city opens a viewing platform for the public to see the ruins. The death toll falls as officials continue to find duplications and errors in missing person reports.
On March 11, a moving tribute to the fallen Twin Towers begins. Two giant shafts of light are beamed into the night sky to simulate the World Trade Center for a month long memorial.
And on May 28, last Tuesday, the last steel beam still standing is cut down during a ceremony for ground zero workers. The death toll stands at 2,823.
Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani is credited with holding the city and perhaps much of the nation together after the attack. He seemed to be everywhere trying to comfort, console, and assure New Yorkers and indeed the entire nation.
Today, I had a chance to talk to him about the recovery effort at ground zero and I began by asking him if it took as long as he thought it would.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RUDOLPH GIULIANI, FMR. MAYOR, NEW YORK: This whole recovery effort happened much, much faster than I would have anticipated on the evening of September 11 or the morning of September 12 when it went through its first overnight phase and we had to organize it very very quickly.
BLITZER: How long did you think it would take at that point?
GIULIANI: I would not have been surprised if it took over a year. When we assessed it on the evening of September 11 and we took a look at the six or seven stories of fallen building and the fires at 2,000-2,500 degrees Fahrenheit and realized how dangerous it was and I think we thought it would be about a year, maybe longer to actually get to the point that they are at right now. So the work that has been done, the way it was organized the heroism of the work, the skill, the professionalism is just absolutely remarkable.
It has to at least help in some ways to restore your spirit about what people who live in freedom can accomplish.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: So, what should happen next at ground zero? More of my interview with Rudy Giuliani coming up. You are about to hear his very, very passionate opinions about what should happen at that site. And more of our breaking story; a helicopter goes down on Oregon's Mt. Hood.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: We will get back to our interview with Rudy Giuliani in just a few moments, but we are following a breaking news story. You are looking at live pictures of rescue helicopters getting ready to go back to the top of Mt. Hood in Oregon where an earlier rescue operation failed, a military helicopter, a U.S. Air Force Black Hawk helicopter crashed alongside, along the top of Mt. Hood.
You are looking at this taped picture of that Black Hawk crashing as it was attempting to engage in a rescue operation of some seven climbers, three of them reportedly are listed as dead. Our affiliate correspondent, Krista Vasquez from our affiliate KGW just attended a news conference at the foot of Mt. Hood. And let's listen to her report.
KRISTA VASQUEZ, KGW REPORTER: That was Angie Blanchard (ph) with the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) County sheriff's office giving a quick update on the circumstances surrounding the search and rescue mission going on now up on Mt. Hood. We are told that now a number of the agencies that are here will be separating, going in to a room and talking about the next plan of action.
Again, the dynamics of this search and rescue mission have changed dramatically now after the crash of that Pave Hawk helicopter, that Black Hawk helicopter, excuse me. Again the ambulances are still on scene here at the command post waiting for any of the critically injured to come down here. They are still standing by. I just saw, a few minutes ago the medical examiner here.
So now the seven people who are still on the mountain, waiting to be rescued, that number has now come up to 11; four people in that military helicopter that crashed, one critically injured, three of them, unknown condition. That is the latest from here. We will bring you another updated when we get it. Back to you.
BLITZER: That was Krista Vasquez of our affiliate, KGW, in Portland, Oregon with some late-breaking developments, late breaking details on the crash of that military helicopter.
General Don Shepperd, Major General, U.S. Air Force (Ret.) once again joins us on the phone. As you continue to study and look at that crash, general, what is your interpretation?
SHEPPERD: Wolf, again, the helicopter is operating at an altitude reportedly between 10 and 12 thousand feet there on Mt. Hood. It apparently stalled for whatever reason. Again, it is operating right at the top of its capabilities. When you run into a stall, what you normally do is you dump the nose and dive for altitude.
But where he was, there was no place to dive for altitude without having the blade contact something. Again, it could be caused on mechanical, or it could be it is just where you are operating. I'm looking at the Internet, and the service ceiling, which is that maximum altitude of that helicopter, shows around 19,000 feet, but that is in level flight cruising. It shows a hover ceiling at 70 degrees as being 9,300 feet, so assuming that it is colder up there, my guess is, straight line interpretation, let's say it is 35 or 40 degrees, your hover capability, maximum hover capability, probably would be around 10,400 feet, which means it is right there, leaving no room for error.
As Miles O'Brien pointed out, if he was in a tight spot, his rotors will generate their own turbulence, can cause more stall, and as Jamie McIntyre pointed out, he is right above the snow with depth perception problems.
BLITZER: General, you are looking at live pictures, our viewers are looking at live pictures as well of another helicopter, a rescue helicopter, preparing to continue that rescue operation atop Mt. Hood in Oregon. These are live pictures thanks to our affiliate KOIN. What helicopter, of you can tell, is this one that is about to take off and resume this rescue operation?
SHEPPERD: OK, again, there is an Air Force reserve rescue unit at Portland, Oregon, where reportedly we have heard that these are out of. Now these guys are rescue professionals. This isn't something you do daily, but you do this on a regular basis. They will have their most experienced helicopter pilot put on board to do this. They do do it at these altitudes. They have done it before. It is not unusual and so I think they will probably go back up their and try to rescue their buddies in this case and the climbers as well. It will be very, very carefully planned.
BLITZER: General, stand by. I want to bring in some other experts to help us better understand this operation. You see people are getting into this other helicopter. These are live pictures thanks to our affiliate KOIN in Oregon, getting ready to resume this rescue operation. And for those of our viewers who may just be tuning in, let me just recap, very briefly, a U.S. Air Force Reserve helicopter crashed as it was attempting to rescue some seven hikers who had managed to get near the top of Mt. Hood. Let's look at this videotape...
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... there we are! Hang on fellows! Oh, my goodness. Oh that is horrible. Good Lord, oh, fellows, of my goodness. You are watching this live, folks. Oh, if only this was a movie. You have seen the helicopter, you saw the tail go into the mountain and just flew apart rolling down the hillside. Oh, good Lord. That...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: Let me bring back General Shepperd. General Shepperd, we are told that five people were aboard that U.S. Air Force helicopter, a reserve helicopter from the Air National Guard in Oregon. You say that these helicopters are trained in these kinds of rescue operations, the pilots (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
SHEPPERD: Yes, Wolf. If the reports are correct, this would be an HH-60, the rescue version of the Black Hawk, which is a rescue version on the Pave Hawk helicopter and it is an Air Force reserve unit at the base there. There is also an international guard f-15 unit at that particular base, but the rescue unit is from the reserve and they are trained and they do this type of thing on a regular basis. Again, I don't mean weekly, but several times a year they are called upon to go up to these high altitudes and perform this type of rescue. It is dicey business.
BLITZER: This is the Pave Hawk, which is you say a version of the Black Hawk. What is the difference?
SHEPPERD: Basically there are different engines, different configurations, refueling configurations, hoists put on the airplane, especially for rescue. The HH-60 is the rescue version. The UH-60 Black Hawk is the standard Army version, and the MH-60 is the special operations version of the helicopter. So they are just different designations with different equipment, but basically the same basic configuration and the same engines on all of them.
BLITZER: All right. General, stand by. Our viewers are looking now at a live picture of Mt. Hood in Oregon, where seven climbers got into trouble. Three of them died, four of them are trapped inside a mountain crevice over there. I want to bring in John King, not our senior White House correspondent, but another John King, an aviation specialist who know a lot about these rescue operations. He is on the phone.
John, tell us what you are seeing and what you believe happened.
JOHN KING, AVIATION SPECIALIST: I tell you what, Wolf, this is a challenging situation for both the pilots and the helicopter. As the general pointed out, they are operating right near the limits of the helicopter meaning that any down draft that they have, in fact the helicopter creates its own down draft by moving the air down and of they settle into their own downdraft, they create problems for themselves.
It is not surprising. These kinds of things happens. It is a risk management situation. They know that there are risks, they manage it the best they can. But sometimes the risks overtake them.
BLITZER: What, did the pilot make a mistake by getting so close? He seemed to be only a few feet hovering off the side of that mountain.
JOHN KING, AVIATION SPECIALIST: There's a trade off. There is limited room. The helicopter itself is about 64 feet long. Each blade is 24 feet long. And to do this in a confined area is very challenging, very difficult. People's live were at stake and you do the best you can to try and rescue these folks who are up there in very bad conditions, but there are some risks involved in it and you do your best to manage those risks.
BLITZER: And yet now we see other helicopters preparing to take off and resume this rescue operation. Is that a good idea? There is a live picture of another helicopter beginning to move towards the area.
JOHN KING, AVIATION EXPERT: It's better than leaving them there I would think. And it is something that is within the capability of the helicopter, but near the limits. And people operate aircraft all the time near their limits, and these people have practiced this a great deal. They know what they are doing, they knew the risks involved. They know about down drafts and they know about settling into their own down draft. They know about all of these things, but sometimes they can be insidious. I will tell you what, the new people going up there are very very courageous. There was courage involved in the first crew going up there, but think of the courage involved in the rescue crews now getting them out of it. They will be able to do it, and they will do it, and I guarantee they will do it well, but there are risks that they are very mindful of at this point.
BLITZER: All right, John, stand by. I want to bring in Dr. Dean Goobler. He is at one of the hospitals that has already received some of the hikers, some of the climbers who have been brought in. Dr. Goobler, tell us what the status is of those who have been brought it.
DR. DEAN GOOBLER, RECEIVED SOME INJURED HIKERS: We have received two of the casualties. Both of them were in the original group and are in stable but serious condition at the present time.
BLITZER: Based on your information, Dr. Goobler, we are told there were seven climbers on this particular outing. Is that right?
GOOBLER: I probably don't have as good information on that as you do. We have only receive two of the climbers and the others I've got just sporadic reports on. We have focused on the two casualties who came here.
BLITZER: When you say they are in critical condition, can you elaborate a little -- stable but critical condition -- life threatening?
GOOBLER: It's too early to be specific about that. Right now they have had a certain amount of exposure from being on the mountain and we are just in the process of systematically assessing them and identifying all of their injuries.
BLITZER: How far is your hospital from the top of the mountain where they got into trouble?
GOOBLER: By helicopter it is only about 20 minutes, so Mt. Hood is an hour outside of Portland.
BLITZER: And what you are telling us is that these two individuals, these two casualties were brought by helicopter to the hospital?
GOOBLER: That's correct.
BLITZER: Do you know what kind of helicopter brought them over?
GOOBLER: They were brought in by the Black Hawks.
BLITZER: By the one that crashed, the first helicopter?
GOOBLER: That I am unclear about.
BLITZER: But one of those Black Hawk U.S. Air Force Air National Guard helicopters brought him in?
GOOBLER: Correct.
BLITZER: Dr. Goobler, thanks very much for giving us that update on those two casualties. We are told seven hikers, or four of them managed to survive. We are told two now in stable but critical condition and three others reported to have died in this accident. Miles O'Brien once again is joining us.
Miles, give us your assessment once again on the risks of these kinds of helicopter rescue operations.
O'BRIEN: Clearly, Wolf, this was a crew that knew they were pushing the edge of the envelope, to use the aviation term. This is the very limits of the capability of that helicopter at that altitude. I'm reiterating some points that have been made before, but just in case we have some viewers joining us -- at that altitude the air is thinner, and that does a couple of things. It reduces the amount of lift across those rotors, and it also hinders the performance of the engine. It just doesn't get as much oxygen into the engine, and thus it doesn't perform as well.
So it's kind of a one-two punch that puts you at the edge of your performance capability. You have five people on board, you have fuel, you might be very close to being overweight, and your capabilities would be right at the razor edge.
A couple things to consider, too, as well, as far as the conditions. We were talking earlier about the fact that it looked so pristine there. At that altitude and in those canyons the wind can be very unpredictable. It can swirl -- I was relating to you a little while ago about a story, just landing on top of Mt. Saint Helen's several years ago on a day not unlike this one. But being unable to land on top of the lava dome there to do the story we were doing because of those swirling winds. We ended up having to fly down to a lower valley and hike up. It was very deceiving because it seemed like such a good day.
Another point to bring out here, as that -- as looking at that shot, that excruciating shot of that Pave Hawk helicopter that almost tumbles in slow motion, the pilot's point of view as that was happening really did not afford him any sort of horizon. It was a white-out situation, if you will, and the pilots who, for example, have been going to Afghanistan trained long and hard on this, because there the issue is dust. When you land and when you take off, you can kick up quite a cloud of dust and become disoriented.
In a situation like that, as this pilot was facing that white wall of snow, it would be very easy to become disoriented and not know exactly quite literally which way was up. Hard to say if that was a factor. If he could have seen a horizon, if he could have gotten control of it. It seems to me that the helicopter may not have had the capability to come out of what essentially amounted to a performance hold -- Wolf.
BLITZER: All right. Stand by, Miles. I want to go back to Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. He has got some additional information -- Jamie. MCINTYRE: Well, Wolf, I want to make clear that I'm not an expert in helicopter aviation, but people who know a lot more about this than me have been looking at this tape, and they say that it suggests to them a phenomenon which is called by what's called uneven ground effects, sort of blow-back from the slope.
Now we saw this helicopter was hovering right near a steep slope, and that means that the wash from the helicopter hits the ground in an uneven way. That can cause a blow back that can cause the helicopter to roll a little bit. And when we looked at that tape, we could see that what happened to this helicopter was entirely consistent with that known effect, the blow back that's caused from uneven ground condition that can cause the helicopter to roll. And then, what we saw was once the helicopter rolled just a little bit and it began to lose control, there was then no room for the pilot to recover. You see it, it starts to tilt a little bit. It's going back and forth.
The pilot at that point has no room to recover. If he has got a little airspace underneath him, he can drive through it and get good lift again, but, according to people who know a little bit more about flying helicopters than I do, this looks very much like the rolling movement caused by an uneven ground underneath the helicopter, a steep slope. And if you go and look at helicopter flying manuals, you can see diagrams of exactly how this kind of effect happens.
So of course, it is way too early to say what caused this accident. We can't rule anything out. Could have been a mechanical problem, it could have been any of the things that we have talked about before. But as I said, some experts looking at this believe that this looks like a very typical case of uneven ground effect causing blow back and the helicopter to rotate and then lose control -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre, thank you very much for all that information. Let me just briefly recap for viewers who may just be tuning in. A U.S. Air National Guard Pavehawk helicopter, which is a variant of the Black Hawk helicopters, crashed alongside near the top of Mt. Hood as it was engaged in a rescue operation of seven climbers. Three reported dead; four managed to survive; two of them now in the hospital in critical condition. The rescue operation continues. Five people aboard that Pavehawk helicopter that went down. Other helicopters now getting involved in continuing this rescue operation.
We are going to continue to follow this story throughout the coming hours as we get more information. I want to inform our viewers as we show our viewers the live picture of Mt. Hood in Oregon, where the rescue operation continues, of some other news that we are just getting in. Mariane Pearl gave birth in Paris today to a boy, Adam D. Pearl (ph). He came in just under six pounds. Of course, Mariane Pearl, the widow of "Wall Street Journal" reporter Daniel Pearl, who was murdered in Pakistan about four months ago. Mariane Pearl giving birth today to a baby boy, Adam D. Pearl (ph), in Paris.
And switching gears to our other story that we have been reporting on all day today, earlier today, the formal rescue operation, recovery operation at ground zero ended about eight and a half months after September 11. I want to bring in two people who have a very, very unique perspective on this entire recovery operation, Thomas Von Essen, who is New York's Fire commissioner on September 11. He joins us. Ron Spadafora was the site survey officer for ground zero. Both join us now live from New York.
Gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us. First to you, Commissioner Von Essen, tell us your thoughts as you look upon these past eight and a half months and the end of the recovery effort today.
THOMAS VON ESSEN, NY FIRE COMMISSIONER: I was just talking to the chief about how fortunate we have been with the weather, that I think really helped them do such a remarkable job so quickly and with such dignity. The results, we wish, were better for all the families. We wish we have recovered more of our loved ones, but we are hoping that through the DNA, some of the testing that the medical examiner hasn't completed yet, that more identifications will come and some of the families will get some relief, anyway, and some relief of their pain.
BLITZER: Chief Spadafora, give us your personal story. You were there from day one, and you have been there almost ever since. What happens now?
RONALD SPADAFORA, GROUND ZERO SITE SURVEY DEPUTY CHIEF: Well, there is still certain areas on the site that still have to be looked at. I talked with Mayor Bloomberg a week ago, and he assured me that the Fire Department still have the adequate amount of time to just make sure that everything has been properly looked at, in regards to the recovery operations. So we have a few more days, and then everyone has to get back to their lives.
BLITZER: And, chief, give us your personal story. What happened on September 11 to you, and in the days that followed?
SPADAFORA: All I can say is I'm proud of the firefighters. They went through the gates of hell for me, when I was there on 9/11. There is no words to describe the loss of 343 that gave their lives, as well as the volunteers that showed up on the site, the construction workers. It was a joint effort, and an effort of honor, and it's coming to a close.
BLITZER: Commissioner Von Essen, 343 firefighters lost at the World Trade Center. Has the Fire Department in New York City managed to recover from that incredible loss?
VON ESSEN: No, it will be, if we ever recover, it will be a long time from now. I mean, the guys are doing the job every night. Services, fires are being taken care of. The emergency medical calls, first responding, everything is getting done as well as it was before. They are training, they are preparing, they are trying to heal as best they can. But recover, I think it'll be a long time before we can say that FDNY has recovered, if ever.
BLITZER: What lessons, commissioner, has the Fire Department learned from that awful experience on September 11, God forbid, if it should ever be necessary again in New York City? VON ESSEN: Well, I think we are constantly reminded now of how important it is for us to be vigilant. Maybe not for an incident of that magnitude, but so many other ways that we can be hurt by these evil people. And we have to constantly train, and we always have to be ready, and that's what we will do. The police officers, firefighters, emergency technicians and paramedics of this city do a great job everyday. And they are ready to serve, but they have to continue to always be ready.
BLITZER: Chief Spadafora, walk us through the rollercoaster of emotions you must have gone through these past eight and a half months.
SPADAFORA: Well, you go from the horror to tragedy, trying to work through it. Picking out bodies from the rubble, things of that nature. Putting out fires, risking your men, telling firefighters to go into buildings that are fully involved, knowing that there is a good possibility that they may never come out.
And then, after three weeks, we went to a recovery operation. And then as the site safety officer, I was worried about the men working around heavy equipment constantly, in regards to the recovery. And everyday was just a lot of pressure in regards to trying to keep the firefighters and rest of the recovery team safe.
BLITZER: All right. I want to thank both of you for spending some time with us on this very, very sad day. Every day is sad in New York when you look back at September 11. Commissioner, chief, thanks so much for spending a little time with us and sharing your thoughts on the end of the formal recovery operation at ground zero, the site of the World Trade Center in New York. Appreciate it very much.
I want to go back now to our other story, the crash of that military helicopter, a U.S. air reserve helicopter atop Mt. Hood as it was attempting to rescue seven climbers. I want to bring in Karen Eubanks. She's on the phone. Now, Karen, first of all, tell us what information you have and where you are getting this information from.
KAREN EUBANKS, PUBLIC INFO. OFFICER: OK, we are at our headquarters office here for the fire department. Our information this morning was that we had six individuals associated with the fire department up on the mountain. We just received word from one of those individuals in the climbing party that fortunately we did not have any fatalities associated with our department.
We did have three injuries, however. One person has been already been transported. And two were actually walking around talking, but were going to be checked out in a local hospital, while we were on the phone with that individual.
BLITZER: So you are with the rescue operation. You are not talking about the number of climbers or the number of people inside that helicopter that crashed?
EUBANKS: No, actually I'm with the fire department that those climbers work for. We were not involved in the rescue effort. We actually had three out of our six -- party of six that slid into the crevasse. So thank goodness, they all appear that they are going to be OK.
BLITZER: So you are saying that the party of six, the number of climbers, we were reporting earlier that there were seven, and four were -- and three were reportedly dead. That's not accurate, is that what you are saying?
EUBANKS: The information I have is that there were four fatalities. The good news that we are getting is that those fatalities do not involve (UNINTELLIGIBLE) fire and rescue employees.
BLITZER: All right, well, there are four fatalities, as far as the hikers are concerned. But as far as your fire department, your rescue operation, there are no fatalities as part of the rescue operation. How many people, as far as you know, are continuing to participate in this rescue operation?
EUBANKS: I don't have the exact numbers, but it's a multitude of agencies. In fact, even our own firefighters, I'm told, were trying to help with the rescue effort earlier in the day. There are several organizations. There is the mountain rescue. We have the military involved, a huge group of individuals and organizations that are attempting to rescue these individuals.
BLITZER: Karen Eubanks, so what you're saying is that there were seven hikers, four are fatalities, four are dead, two we know have been brought to a local hospital in critical condition. There are two others still trapped someplace, is that what you are saying?
EUBANKS: That's the information we are getting. You need to realize that information has been very sketchy thus far. We have been relying here on information from calls down from the mountain, from the hospitals. I mean, we have been gathering information from numerous sources. So it is just -- all day for the last six hours we have been attempting to get our hands around information. So it's just now starting -- the numbers are starting to come forth.
BLITZER: Karen Eubanks, thank you very much for sharing that information with us. We have now been reporting for about an hour the crash of this Air National Guard, this air reserve helicopter attempting to rescue climbers who got stranded atop Mt. Hood. We will continue to cover this story. We will have all of the late-breaking developments as they become available.
Until then, I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" begins right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
