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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Senate Judiciary Hears From Coleen Rowley

Aired June 06, 2002 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: And so the Senate Judiciary Committee takes a break for a few minutes, the Judiciary Committee hearing testimony from the FBI whistle-blower, Coleen Rowley.

Our Kate Snow is on Capitol Hill and has been monitoring this dramatic testimony. Kate, some of your impressions. Kate Snow on Capitol Hill, can you hear me?

KATE SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: ... Senate Judiciary Committee. They're taking a brief recess right now. We can tell you why, because he's the only one, as I look over my shoulder, the only one in the room right now. They're having a vote in the Senate right now, so they've had to leave on a bill that's completely unrelated to this. They had to take a vote. They'll come back and they'll resume with the questioning probably just in a few moments.

A lot of questioning with Coleen Rowley the Minneapolis field agent and also general counsel in the Minneapolis Office who's been testifying about here complaints about FBI headquarters. She's been talking quite a bit about the layers of bureaucracy and fault that she finds with that. She said you've got to reduce the layers. That's the $100 million question she said is how to do that. She says she doesn't envy FBI Director Robert Mueller because he has a very difficult job.

Just a few moments ago, Senator Chuck Schumer, Democrat of New York was questioning her about computers. Something interesting happened there. He said why is it, do you think, in your opinion as a 21-year agent with FBI that the computers haven't been upgraded, and why is it that junior high students, he said, have better computers than the FBI?

And her answer to that was that it might be partly the culture of the FBI. She said back in the '80s when she started at her job, there were many people who hadn't -- there were many people who hadn't even learned to type yet and were averse to using computers. So she said that perhaps that's part of why the FBI has lagged behind the times.

She also talked about a double standard right there at the end with Senator Leahy when he asked her, "what do you mean by a double standard?" She said, "well, in the FBI at the higher levels, sometimes someone will do something and make a mistake and not get reprimanded, but at the lower levels, they'll do the same thing and that person gets disciplined." She certainly has a lot more to say. We will wait now as we wait for some of the senators to come back in the room there, expected to continue questioning her. I believe by my count, there are at least 10 senators left to question Coleen Rowley when they resume.

BLITZER: This is Wolf Blitzer here in Washington. Also, as we watch the pictures, live pictures of the Senate Judiciary Committee hearing room, you see the Chairman Senator Patrick Leahy consulting with some staff members.

As we await the resumption of Coleen Rowley's testimony, when she said that it was the culture of the FBI that some of the old-timers there weren't up to speed on computers, as you well know many members of Congress have been critical of the way Louis Freeh, the former FBI director, conducted the FBI and was averse supposedly to bringing in some new technology, including better computers, moving funding in fact from computer technology to other sources.

Still a lot of criticism over there, very briefly, Kate, involving the former FBI Director Louis Freeh, isn't there, behind the scenes?

SNOW: There is and it's interesting to point out, for those that don't know, that Robert Mueller has only been on this job for a short period of time. He started, in fact, one week before September 11. And one thing, Wolf, that we've gotten out of today is clearly an endorsement of him personally.

I mean, you've heard from both Republicans and Democrats, where you might have thought going in that they would be very, very critical of his job performance, for the most part people praising his performance, saying you've got to keep Mueller on the job because he's just getting going.

They welcome some of the restructuring changes that he announced in terms of adding to the FBI's ability to gather intelligence and do analysis.

One thing they did criticize though, Wolf, repeatedly today when they talked with Mueller earlier; he of course was a witness on the panel this morning, they criticized the new guidelines that have come out from the Attorney General John Ashcroft, allowing for looser rules, if you will, on intelligence gathering.

For example, being able to monitor the Internet, being able to go into a church or a mosque if you have reason to believe that at that public location, you might be able to find something out as an FBI agent.

So there was criticism of that but no direct criticism of Mueller himself -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I'll get back to you. I want to bring in a senior member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, who's emerged from that session to join us. Senator Specter, thanks for joining us. When you heard the FBI Director Robert Mueller say earlier today it could take two to three years before the computer system at the FBI is up to par, what went through your mind?

SEN. ARLEN SPECTER (R), PENNSYLVANIA: We can't wait that long. The problems that we have to be analyzed now. When you take a look at what is coming out as to what was known prior to 9/11 or what could have been known had the proper standards been employed on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act warrant, the chances were succinct that they might have prevented 9/11, and we're going to have to find a way to short circuit that time so that we do not have a repetition if have a veritable road map which we had before 9/11.

BLITZER: Is it your sense at this point, Senator Specter, that 9/11 could have been prevented had the FBI, the CIA, other law enforcement and intelligence agencies done a better job?

SPECTER: Well, Wolf, we'll never know for sure, but FBI Director Mueller himself has conceded that possibility, and my view is that if you put all of the pieces together, if you put the Phoenix memorandum and if you put the Moussaoui investigation and had they applied the proper standard for the warrant under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and the information which we knew before from terrorists that they had plans to hit the White House and the CIA, I think that it was almost a blueprint if they had analyzed it and put all those pieces together.

BLITZER: Is the president doing the right thing, when he'll announce later tonight a new Department of Homeland Security cabinet level and readjusting basically much of the bureaucracy to deal with this new post 9/11 threat?

SPECTER: I think the president is exactly on track. I think that that position requires cabinet status. It requires control of a number of the critical agencies. It requires budget control, and it would also have the confidence of the Congress when requests are being made for $38 billion a year that the director, the secretary, presumably Governor Ridge, would come up here and answer questions. That elevates the position and I think it puts one key man in the position to pull all these pieces together.

BLITZER: Senator Specter, the hearing is just resuming now. I know you want to get back inside. We're going to let you go back and resume the questioning and listening to the FBI whistle-blower, Coleen Rowley. Thank you, senator.

SPECTER: Thank you.

(INTERRUPTED FOR CNN COVERAGE OF LIVE EVENT)

BLITZER: Senator Patrick Leahy, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, wrapping up a long day of hearings that began early this morning around 9:30 a.m. Eastern with the FBI Director Robert Mueller, wrapping up these past few hours with the FBI whistle- blower, the agent in Minneapolis, Coleen Rowley, who testified about her concerns about the bureaucracy at the FBI.

Watching every minute of this hearing, our Kate Snow, our congressional correspondent, standing by.

Kate, a day that there weren't any banner headlines, but there was still a lot of excitement and a lot of news.

SNOW: Yes.

I actually just put that to Senator Chuck Grassley downstairs a couple of minutes ago, Republican from Iowa. I said, "Did you learn anything startling out of today?"

And, Wolf, he said: "No. That wasn't really the point." He said: "What we have done by having Coleen Rowley in here, telling her story, is, we have sent a message to FBI higher-ups. We have sent a message that this kind of behavior can't continue, that this kind of stymying by headquarters has to stop, and that the bureaucracy, the layers that she has talked about so much has to end."

In fact, she was asked a little bit earlier about the levels of bureaucracy. And was asked: "How would you clean it up, if you could?"

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLEEN ROWLEY, FBI SPECIAL AGENT: That is the $100 million question on how to reduce bureaucracy. And I really can't pretend. Give me another week. I really can't pretend to understand.

I know Director Mueller is also very cognizant of this problem. He iterated today that there are eight levels before you get to him. This is an unwieldy situation. If there is a way to somehow reduce the levels, I think that's the way we need to go. Seven to nine levels is really ridiculous. And it is just, how do we do this once it gets started?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SNOW: And Director Mueller had testified earlier today, Wolf, that there were some eight people that would have to sign off on memos before anything reaches his desk. He testified earlier, was in the hot seat for a number of hours.

And, Wolf, I think the key thing out of that was that he was supported, voices of support from both sides of the aisle, Republicans and Democrats, saying: "We appreciate the job you're doing. We know you took the job one week before September 11. Keep up the good work" -- so, not a lot of harsh criticism of him, but, at the same time, a recognition by Mueller that things have got to change at the FBI. He said he is working in that direction and he intends to make it happen -- Wolf.

BLITZER: And, before I let you go, Kate, generally on Capitol Hill, Democrats and Republicans supportive of the planned reorganization of homeland security the president is set to announce later tonight. Is that right?

SNOW: Yes, generally supportive. One Republican aide that we talked to earlier said that, you know, maybe the White House just saw the writing on the wall here, that this was going to have to happen. Ultimately, eventually, they were going to have to make this a Cabinet-level position.

You know, there have been some members of Congress, particularly Democrats, Joseph Lieberman among them, Senator Lieberman, and also Dick Gephardt, the minority leader on the House side -- have been calling for months now for Tom Ridge to become a Cabinet-level secretary. Whether or not that will happen now is unclear. But they are embracing the change, saying that it is something that they would have welcomed months ago.

BLITZER: All right, Kate Snow, our Capitol Hill correspondent, thanks so much for all that good reporting.

We are going to take a quick break. When we come back: How ready is the United States for terrorism: biological, chemical warfare? We will ask a key member of the president's Cabinet: Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're looking at a live picture of the White House. In about two hours or so, President Bush will be announcing major changes in homeland security, some say the most sweeping reforms in the federal government since the end of World War II.

Our senior White House correspondent, John King, is standing by on the North Lawn of the White House with a preview -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Wolf, in making his case to the American people and the Congress tonight, Mr. Bush will cite that bit of history.

This is, he says, the biggest restructuring of the federal government since just after World War II. Mr. Bush will call his proposal a critical element in the ongoing war against terrorism, part of the administration effort to create a sense of urgency in the country and especially in the Congress.

The president will propose a new Cabinet agency. He will call it the Department of Homeland Security. The goal is to centralize functions now spread between nine different Cabinet agencies and dozens of other government agencies. For example, the Coast Guard is now in the Department of Transportation. Mr. Bush says that should go into the new Department of Homeland Security.

The Secret Service now belongs to the Treasury Department. Mr. Bush says that should go to the new Department of Homeland Security. The Immigration and Naturalization Service now in the Justice Department -- Mr. Bush says that belongs, along with so many other border patrol agencies, in this new Department of Homeland Security.

The goal of the speech tonight -- and we are told it will run about 11 minutes -- is to sell this plan to the American people directly and here in Washington, a city known for its turf battles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): The president called key department heads to a morning White House meeting. Sources tell CNN he made clear he will not tolerate grumbling from agencies losing power in the reorganization.

The new department would have four major missions: improving transportation and border security; emergency preparedness for terror strikes; deterring chemical, biological and nuclear attacks; and collecting and analyzing intelligence about terrorist threats. This new intelligence clearing house would analyze information, not only from the FBI and CIA, but also tips and evidence collected by the Border Patrol and Custom Service, the Drug Enforcement Administration, the Secret Service, and state and local law enforcement agencies.

Some on Capitol Hill questioned the timing, suggesting the president was looking to distract attention from hearings into pre- September 11 intelligence lapses. But reaction to the plan itself was overwhelmingly positive.

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), MINORITY LEADER: And my hope is that we can effectively and expeditiously receive this plan from the president, work it through the Congress and try to make it a reality as quickly as possible, so that we can achieve the kind of homeland defense that we need and that the American people want.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Again, Mr. Bush will call on Congress tonight to pass this new plan by the end of this year. He will urge the American people to support him in putting pressure on Congress to do so.

If it goes as the president will propose tonight, what he would create here in the new Department of Homeland Security, Wolf, is the second largest agency in the federal government, second only to the Defense Department: more than 170,000 employees and initial budget of $37 billion -- Wolf.

BLITZER: John King at the White House, thank you very much.

And the Department of Health and Human Services is working with state and local governments to develop plans for fighting bioterrorism. The HHS secretary, Tommy Thompson, gave his approval to many of those plans earlier today, authorizing the release of millions of dollars in federal funding.

He joins us now to talk about that, as well as the president's new initiative.

Your department is losing a chunk of your department to this new Department of Homeland Security. You're not too happy about that, are you?

TOMMY THOMPSON, HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: Well, sure I am.

I think the president is absolutely correct. I think the Department of Homeland Security is going to serve America and the citizens the best that it possibly can. And I think all of us should be supportive.

The president is very adamant is about. I think the president is very visionary. He wants us to come together and make sure that all of our citizens are protected. And he thinks it can be done better in a coordinated and consolidated fashion. And I agree with him.

BLITZER: Health and Human Services, traditionally, has been in charge of biological warfare. That's being removed, bioterrorism, effectively, from under your mandate.

THOMPSON: Well, some of it is, not all of it. But a good share of it is. And that's OK.

And the truth of the matter is, we've been working very hard. And we have developed a great plan. In fact, today, we handed out $1.1 billion, a plan that was put together by the states and the local health officials. We're going to have a very strong plan in place so whoever takes it over is going to be able to handle any kind of emergencies that may exist.

BLITZER: But it's going to take a long time for the federal government to be up to speed, working with state, local hospitals, facilities around the country to deal with this potential threat of bioterrorism.

THOMPSON: And that's why we asked all the state and local health divisions to come together and come up with constructive, consolidated plans. And we gave them a very short period of time, because the plan was announced on January 10. And we're already putting the money out.

So, the states cooperated with us. They came in with some good plans. We were able to go up to New York today and announce the advancement of those plans, as well as giving out the dollars. And we think those plans are in a coordinated fashion and are really going to put America in a good position to fight off any kind of bioterrorism that may exist or may come to our shores.

BLITZER: The anthrax letter attack last fall, that was a huge wakeup call for you.

THOMPSON: It really was.

BLITZER: And what have you done since then to really get your act together in dealing with these potential threats?

THOMPSON: Well, we've had many ways in which we've done it. We've recruited some of the best scientists across the country to come in and work in the department. We've set up a whole new division on bioterrorism. And we've also got the $1.1 billion. We've asked the state and local health officials, the governors, and the first- responders to come together to develop comprehensive plans for their states.

Those plans have been vetted. They've been analyzed by the Department of Health and Human Services. And they've been approved now. And now we're going to give them the necessary resources from the federal government to implement them. And, as a result of that, we're going to have a strong national system, but it's going to be run at the local and state level. And it is going to be a partnership with the federal government. And I couldn't be happier with how far we have progressed in this fight against bioterrorism.

BLITZER: Yesterday, I interviewed Dr. Sue Bailey, former Pentagon assistant secretary for health matters. And she pointed out that all the hospitals in Israel -- where they admittedly have a major terrorist problem -- are fitted with decontamination sites and antidotes. Even hospitals, she says, in New York and Washington, D.C., let alone the rest of the country, are nowhere near where they should be right now for this kind of an emergency.

THOMPSON: But that's why we went through the planning process, Wolf. And that's why we put in so many dollars, $1.1 billion. That's to get these hospitals and emergency centers up to speed. It's also a comprehensive plan for the first-responders, the local health departments, through communication, education, as well as purchasing the resources necessary to be prepared.

That's what went into the planning process. And now we're putting the resources in to implement the planning process. And we're going to be stronger every day from here on in. And I'm very happy with that.

BLITZER: So you and Governor Ridge, assuming he's the new secretary of homeland security -- and everyone is assuming he will be -- you will work closely with him?

THOMPSON: Oh, we have been working very closely on this. And, of course, that's why I'm so happy about it, because we were able to get the necessary dollars from the Congress. And next year, we're asking for $4.3 billion. And that's some extra dollars for the hospitals, for the health departments at the local level.

And I think it's going to really benefit the safety of all Americans, whether it be anthrax, whether it be smallpox, whether it be any other kind of bioterrorism agent. We are going to be prepared for responding. We can never stop a terrorist attack. We can't stop a suicide bomber. But, if in fact it happens, we're going to be prepared to respond. And that's the important thing.

BLITZER: But the whole point is to stop them before they do it.

THOMPSON: And that is not our agency, but that is going to why Homeland Security is being set up, to accomplish that, to be able to bring everybody together.

BLITZER: Secretary Thompson, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it. Now to our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena. She has been tracking all the action on Capitol Hill, where the FBI has been in the hot seat and an FBI agent is going public.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): FBI whistle-blower Coleen Rowley was just as open and candid in person as she appeared to be in her 13-page letter to FBI Director Robert Mueller.

ROWLEY: I really do care, really, about the FBI. I've invested almost half my life in it.

ARENA: The 21-year-old agent charged in her written statement that there is a mind-set at the FBI that inaction leads to success. And she urged Director Mueller to do more to dismantle bureaucracy.

ROWLEY: I thought I saw some impetus for a little more additional bureaucracy and micromanaging from headquarters. And I wanted to point out to Director Mueller that that seemed to fly in the face of what we should have learned from September 11.

ARENA: Rowley works in the Minneapolis field office, which first alerted FBI headquarters about Zacarias Moussaoui, who investigators now believe was supposed to be the 20th hijacker. She complained bitterly in a letter last month to Director Mueller that FBI headquarters thwarted her office's attempts to search Moussaoui's computer.

Earlier, before the same committee, Director Mueller admitted the FBI made mistakes in both handling the Moussaoui case and the so- called Phoenix memo warning of suspected terrorists at U.S. flight schools.

ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: The need for change was apparent even before September 11. It has become more urgent since then.

ARENA: Mueller reassured members of Congress there would be no retribution against Rowley. Mueller also said he does not believe that the 9/11 attacks would have been disrupted if a search warrant had been granted for Moussaoui's computer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Based upon the information that you do have, do you believe that information could have disrupted the operation?

MUELLER: I do not believe it is likely that it would have.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Rowley did not talk specifically about the Moussaoui case because of impending prosecution. Instead, she focused here remarks on the culture at the FBI. Another problem that she brought up was the antiquated computer system at the FBI, Wolf, which director Robert Mueller said would not be fixed for another two to three years.

Back to you.

BLITZER: Kelli Arena, that sounds like a long time. Thank you very much for that report.

When we come back: parents plea for their 14-year-old daughter. But who are police really looking for? We'll go live to Salt Lake City for details.

JAMES HATTORI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The hours are winding down in this initial, critical investigation period into the disappearance, the kidnapping of 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart. We'll check in with investigators and see what progress they've made when WOLF BLITZER REPORTS continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Let's go to New York, get a preview of LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE. That begins right at the top of the hour -- Lou.

LOU DOBBS, HOST, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Wolf, thank you very much.

Coming up tonight, the president will propose the most dramatic government changes since World War II. That coming up in just a couple of hours. We'll have a live report for you from the White House.

The Senate Judiciary Committee has heard powerful criticism of the FBI from one of its own. We'll have that story as well from Washington.

And stocks today suffer massive losses; Wall Street in trouble. Richard Grasso, chairman and CEO of the New York Stock Exchange is here to tell us what he wants to do to restore investor confidence, and why he's having to fight big business to get it done.

And tonight on the "Dobbs Report," we'll continue to assess the war against Islamists.

All of that and a lot more. Please join us.

Now back to Wolf Blitzer -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you very much, Lou.

And this 14-year-old girl is at the center of a mystery and an intense search. Police today say they aren't any closer to finding out who abducted Elizabeth Smart from her own bedroom in an upscale neighborhood of Salt Lake City, Utah, or where she is. The reward for her safe return has now grown to a quarter of a million dollars.

CNN's James Hattori joins us now live from Salt Lake City with the latest -- James.

HATTORI: Good evening, Wolf. There's no shortage of enthusiasm, activity, and probably prayer. But so far, some 39 hours after the disappearance and kidnapping of 14-year-old Elizabeth Smart, investigators say all they have is a lot of frustration and dead ends.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHIEF RICK DINSE, SALT LAKE CITY POLICE: We have a lot more information. We know a lot of things right now that have not panned out. But as far as solving the case, we don't feel we're any closer, no.

HATTORI (voice-over): No closer, despite a second day of searching. This time hundreds of local volunteers going door-to-door on the slim chance that someone saw something suspicious.

No one could understand why a kidnapper would take a shy 14-year- old girl who plays the harp, described as angelic.

Elizabeth's uncle, veteran photojournalist, has covered other cases of missing children.

TOM SMART, ELIZABETH'S UNCLE: It's always hard on both sides. I mean, journalists are people, we all know that. And I've been on the other side of it, but I've had tears in my eyes, too. So, of course we see a lot of friends and colleagues here. And that's great. And we're just doing what we can do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HATTORI: Investigators say there is no shortage of tips coming in -- thousands of them, an average of one every minute. But so far none of them have panned out, Wolf. And the volunteer search efforts are winding down as well for tonight. Twelve hundred people took part. They'll start again tomorrow morning.

BLITZER: All right, James Hattori in Salt Lake City, thank you very much.

And earlier today Elizabeth Smart's parents spoke to CNN's Paula Zahn on "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ED SMART, ELIZABETH'S FATHER: We just can't even fathom who it is or why they took her. I mean, she was just -- I mean, to me she was as near perfect as a daughter could be. She plays the harp. She -- you know, she loves everyone. I just -- I don't know of any enemies that she has or any people that would want to harm her.

I just -- you know, last night as this happened -- or the night before last, I -- you know, when my daughter initially came in, all I heard was, you know, a man took her. And I rushed in there, I thought, you know, she's just having a bad dream. And she -- we have six children. And I went from room to room because occasionally one of the kids will sleep with the other. And, you know, and I couldn't find her.

And I just -- I heard Ben (ph) at then point that, you know, it was at gunpoint. And it just -- you know, it just seemed unreal. I mean, it just -- I still can't believe that it's happened. I just -- I mean, you hear about these, and you can't imagine what kind of a nightmare it is for the parents. And we just can't -- we can't believe that it's really happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And if you have any information or tips about the disappearance of Elizabeth Smart, please call this number: 1-800-932- 0190.

Time now to hear from you. A viewer from New York writes to us this: "The tragedy happened, and with all tragedies, people died" -- referring to September 11. "Since further terrorist attacks against us seem to be inevitable, and since security mistakes were committed in the past, shouldn't the primary focus be learning from those mistakes to prevent the next attack, instead of laying blame?"

Michael adds: "Our world changed on September 11: the way we look at our neighbors, our jobs, our families; even the way wee think. We the people want real solutions, not endless bickering and in-fighting from our elected officials. The enemy wants to divide us. It is so much easier to fall prey to them than to find the strength to stay united. We cannot -- must not -- waver now."

And that is all the time we have for now. Tomorrow: reconstructing Ground Zero. One of the president's men has a plan.

I will see you again tonight in two hours, 8:00 Eastern, along with Paula Zahn for the president's prime-time address.

Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE begins right now.

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