Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Saddam Hussein Fires Back at U.S.; Web Site Operator Fights War on Terror Through Computer
Aired August 08, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR (voice over): Now, on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, parading his troops through the streets of Baghdad, Saddam Hussein dares the U.S. to attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): The forces of evil will carry their coffins on their back, to die in disgraceful failure.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN: Is Iraq setting an urban warfare trap for U.S. forces?
From porn to patriotism, an adult Web site operator battles al Qaeda online.
Pumped up or trumped up? Baseball players agree to put the issue of steroid use to the test.
Oh, oh, they're crowding the platform over the shark tank and it collapses.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We went under the water but there was a coral reef and I grabbed on to the reef and we bobbed up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O'BRIEN (on camera): It is Thursday, August 8th, 2002. I'm Miles O'Brien, Wolf Blitzer off again this evening, good to have you with us.
We're awaiting word at this hour from San Diego, where the judge in the Danielle van Dam murder case is expected to make an announcement very shortly.
He received a note from jurors in the case who began their deliberations today. David Westerfield could face the death penalty if he is convicted. CNN's Rusty Dornin is keeping watch for us in San Diego. Rusty, any idea what the jury wants?
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely not, Miles. We've been waiting for about a half hour. They were scheduled to come back into court and the judge was going to announce what was in the note from the jury.
Now it could be as simple as the jury just announcing they've nominated a foreman, perhaps asking for some testimony to be read back, yet there is always the possibility it could be a verdict. But at this point, most folks here feel that that's probably highly unlikely.
This morning, prosecutor Jeff Dusek spent his closing arguments, about an hour, very methodically but very powerfully going through the chronological timeline he felt that linked David Westerfield to the kidnapping and murder of Danielle van Dam.
Now the defense attorney, Steven Feldman has said there is no absolute proof that David Westerfield did this. Prosecutor Jeff Dusek disagrees.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEFF DUSEK, PROSECUTOR: This is the smoking gun, right here, this jacket. This is the smoking gun. Danielle's blood is on that jacket and after hearing all the closing arguments yesterday and part of the day before, this wasn't touched how it got there. This wasn't touched at all. Give me an explanation. You have to be sitting there. Give me another explanation of how it got there, please. You didn't hear one. Not one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DORNIN: Now that explanation could hurt the defense in this case, because as the prosecutor said that was never mentioned by the defense. Steven Feldman kept bringing up that all the evidence was circumstantial and that, you know, trying to plant little seeds of doubt just hopefully in at least one juror's mind. That's all it takes to get a hung jury in this case.
Now before giving the case to the jury, the judge did tell them, was very strict about saying you must not talk about this case with anyone because several of the people are going to work tomorrow and he has heard reports that there has been talk by some jurors. People have been asking them questions and that sort of thing. This jury is not sequestered and the judge is saying they better keep their mouth shut or they will be sequestered. Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, Rusty Dornin, watch that for us and we will be seeing you shortly as soon as we hear from the judge in this case and get an idea of what the jury in fact wants. Despite all the publicity surrounding the van Dam murder case, the jury deliberating the guilt or innocence of David Westerfield will not be sequestered, as we just told you.
The panel made up of six men, six women. Their occupations range from social worker to tax accountant to software engineer to college student. Bob Grimes, past president of the San Diego Criminal Defense Association joining us now to discuss the case. Mr. Grimes, good to have you with us.
BOB GRIMES, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Let's talk about this issue of sequestering first of all. Why did the judge make that call and do you think it was a bad call?
GRIMES: You know, Miles, I think the judge is correct about that. Sequestering is a great burden on a jury. The judge is going to watch them very closely to make sure there's no improper contact with them, but I think it's better to let them go home and live their normal lives as much as possible when they're not in court.
O'BRIEN: I guess implicit in all of that is the assumption this could be a long deliberation. What's your best guess having seen a lot of this trial? Is it - for one thing, is it possible they're back with a verdict already, or do you think that's highly unlikely?
GRIMES: You know I don't think there's any chance that this note from the jury is a verdict. We're going to find out who the foreperson is because that's who signs the note. They may want some testimony read back. They may want an exhibit. They may want some more instruction on the law. I would be astonished if we have a verdict before early to middle of next week. There's too many exhibits, 199 exhibits, just too much testimony for them to go over.
O'BRIEN: On the one hand, you have a very, very strong forensics case on the part of the prosecution, the hair on the pillow for example. And then on the other hand, you have a very clever defense strategy using entomologists us talk about when bugs cropped up in the body of Danielle van Dam and also casting aspersions on the parents of Danielle van Dam, bottom line trying to muddy the waters. Steven Feldman said the prosecution didn't put it together. To your way of thinking, did the prosecution put it together?
GRIMES: Well, the prosecution has some strong evidence. The prosecutor, Dusek, opened strong and closely strong with the blood on Westerfield's jacket. Feldman is putting his whole case primarily on two things. One is that the time of death would exclude Westerfield as being the person that dropped the body, and the other is that the van Dam lifestyle brought undesirable and perhaps dangerous people into the home creating at least the possibility of another suspect.
O'BRIEN: Well in your experience as a defense attorney, do you find that the forensics type of evidence is particularly difficult to refute when you're a defense attorney, or are juries able to work around these things that seem so irrefutable?
GRIMES: Well scientific evidence can be very strong. It's called "circumstantial evidence," but it can be very strong. In this case, of course, we have in addition to the blood we have some fingerprint evidence of Danielle's fingerprints in Westerfield's motor home, which is also a difficult one to explain, and some pretty strong fiber evidence too. So certainly it's a challenging case for Mr. Feldman to explain to the satisfaction of the jury.
O'BRIEN: Now there is one other subtlety to consider here and that is the idea that the defense is trying to put forth here that perhaps if Danielle van Dam was deceased before she left the home, in other words was not kidnapped, explain why that little nuance is so important for the jury and for Mr. Westerfield's case.
GRIMES: Well I think that Steve Feldman probably made a tactical mistake in arguing that because I'm told that the jury visibly reacted, showing their disapproval of it. It was too much of a technicality.
He is correct that if the homicide occurred before a kidnapping began, then Westerfield is not guilty of murder because it's a kidnap- murder theory, but I just don't think the jury wants to hear that kind of distinction. It's too much of a technicality in this case. If he killed her, they're going to want to hold him responsible.
O'BRIEN: All right, Bob Grimes who is a past president of the San Diego Criminal Defense Bar Association, obviously a defense attorney in San Diego seeing a lot of this trial, thanks for being with us. We know that sun is kind of bright in your eyes. We appreciate you enduring that for us and as events warrant we'll bring Bob back to help us understand what's going on out there in that courtroom in San Diego.
Looking at some other stories in our Justice File for you authorities looking for a serial killer in the Baton Rouge, Louisiana area. They say the killer may have tried to strike again. They say a man tried to kidnap a woman in an area parking lot on Tuesday. He fled when a bystander approached, but a composite drawing of that man appears to match descriptions of the serial killer suspect.
A former student charged with killing three people at a Virginia law school in January has been found incompetent to stand trial and will be sent to a mental hospital instead. During today's hearing, he blamed the FBI, the CIA, and Vice President Cheney for his problems. The 43-year-old Nigerian native is accused of gunning down a dean, a professor, and a student after flunking out of the Appalachian Law School.
Robert Blake's lawyer has released photos of the actor taken inside the L.A. County Men's Central Jail. Blake was arrested in April on charges he murdered his wife. The judge in the case has refused to consider bail but Blake's lawyer has asked the California Supreme Court to order a bail hearing.
Well they're calling him the porn patriot. Meet the man who beat al Qaeda at its own game. He hijacked that group's Web site.
Plus, holy shark attack Batman, the aquarium tour that turned into a jaws nightmare. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
And, some support for a plan to legalize Marijuana from high places, Nevada cops pushing to legalize pot. We'll try to decipher that debate in just a bit. And, we want to know what you think. Should it be legal for adults to possess small amounts of Marijuana? We invite you to log on to cnn.com/wolf, cast your vote.
On August 17th, the Asteroids 2002 and Y40 will come close enough to earth to be viewed with binoculars. Our question, where do asteroids, such as 2002 and Y40, come from? Are they burned out stars, fragments of comets tails, pieces of planet that never formed, or moons that have escaped from their orbits? The answer coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: All right, let's go right back to San Diego. That note that we told you about from the jury in the case, the murder of Danielle van Dam, that note is being discussed right now in court. Let's listen in to Judge Mudd.
JUDGE WILLIAM MUDD, SAN DIEGO CO. SUPERIOR COURT: We've been able to resolve those conflicts so the jury will be in deliberation five days a week, not four days a week as previously announced. However, the exact hours of their deliberation will not be made public, nor released to the media for some other reasons that I don't want to go into. So at any rate, they will be in deliberation five days a week. All right, we'll be in recess.
O'BRIEN: All right, I missed the beginning of that, but Judge William Mudd was essentially offering some housekeeping items for reporters covering this particular case, the murder case of Danielle van Dam, David Westerfield's case.
I think essentially what he was doing was telling them how the jury was going to progress with its deliberations, but not offering a lot of indication as to when they might, in fact, be deliberating. We'll keep you posted and try to get you a full report on exactly what was said there.
Now let's move on. There may be a gathering storm in the Persian Gulf region. Facing warnings and threats from the U.S., Iraqi Leader Saddam Hussein has mustered his forces and his bravado issuing some warnings of his own. Let's go live now to CNN's Rym Brahimi in Baghdad for the latest on what's going on there; Rym, hello.
RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, hi there. Well, the president addressed his people today, a major broadcast address, a lot of defiance, a lot of the usual tough rhetoric that President Saddam Hussein is now famous for, telling people in fact that if the Americans do attack well that attack will be met by fatah and also calling the American forces, forces of evil. Let's listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRAHIMI (voice over): The occasion, the Day of Days, the day Iraq's eight-year war with Iran ended 14 years ago. But as the Iraqi leadership celebrates the end of that conflict with full pomp and ceremony, it's also preparing for the possibility of facing another war, the third in the past 22 years.
In his Day of Days speech, the Iraqi president directly addressed U.S. threats for the first time in prophetic tones but using much of the usual defiance. HUSSEIN (through translator): One of the lessons of recent and distant history is that all empires and bureaus of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of evil, whenever they mobilize they're evil against the Arab nation or against the Muslim world. They were themselves buried in their own coffin.
BRAHIMI: That's tough talk, backed by a show of force, the second military parade in Baghdad this week, this one about 10,000 volunteers marching. Many of these volunteers, some of them members of the ruling Ba'ath Party, say they have weapons at home and are learning to use them to defend their ruler and their country to the death, displays of readiness that in recent days have gone hand-in- hand with attempts at promoting dialogue with the U.S. voiced on this occasion by the president himself.
HUSSEIN (through translator): If they wanted peace and security for themselves and their people, then this is not the course to take. The right course is of respect to the security and advice of others through dealing with others in peace and establishing the obligations required by way of credible dialog.
BRAHIMI: On this public holiday, few Iraqis show up at their local cafes to discuss politics. They're being told that even if the U.S. does attack Iraq, it won't have the backing of an international coalition like it did in 1991. Most Iraqis bear few, if any, illusions that an attack is on its way, a political game they know is not in their hands.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BRAHIMI (on camera): Well, despite that main instruction being given out by the ruling Ba'ath Party here, Miles, are all seeming to converge toward one goal and that's gaining international public opinion. The invitation to members of the U.S. Congress was again renewed yesterday, at the National Assembly; and also people from local associations and from unions are being asked to contact their counterparts abroad and tell them that this is not a war that Iraq wants. Miles.
O'BRIEN: Rym, you mentioned international public opinion. I'm curious about public opinion there in the streets of Baghdad. There's a lot of people in the United States talking about the possibility that any sort of attack might just topple the Saddam Hussein regime very quickly, that it is a house of cards and that there will be a popular uprising against him. Do you have any sense of that one way or another in your dealings day-to-day?
BRAHIMI: Well, Miles, that's a very, very difficult thing to establish from Baghdad because, as you know, people don't talk easily and certainly they don't talk easily publicly. What is clear though is that there is a lot of concern here in Baghdad, the main concern being that if such a regime change should happen, well it will be accompanied by a war. Now that's one of the first concerns.
Now the other thing is also that people will not really tell you what they want to see happen, but even those who want to see change are worried that it will come with a war, and that's what I can tell you for now. Miles.
O'BRIEN: CNN's Rym Brahimi in Baghdad, thank you very much, appreciate that. In 1991, U.S. air power and armor decimated Iraqi forces spread out across the desert, but underscoring his warnings to the U.S. not to try it again, Saddam Hussein may be getting ready to fight a different battlefield; more from CNN's Patty Davis in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PATTY DAVIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Pentagon dismisses Saddam Hussein's warning that any U.S. attack would fail with heavy U.S. casualties, a view echoed across the Bush administration.
PHILLIP REEKER, STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN: Saddam's comments are a bluster from an internationally isolated dictator.
DAVIS: Planning for a possible U.S. military invasion continues at the Pentagon. Iraqi opposition leaders in Washington to meet with senior Pentagon and State Department officials on ousting Saddam Hussein say, unlike the Gulf War, the Iraqi leader is preparing to fight U.S. troops not in the desert but on the streets of Baghdad.
SHARIF AL DIN AL-HUSSEIN, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: He is positioning himself so that there would be no significant battles in the field. He is preparing for street fighting and to take on any allied troops inside Iraq.
DAVIS: Pentagon officials say urban combat carries the highest risk of U.S. troop casualties and could result in significant civilian deaths as well. The military, a senior Pentagon official said, is familiar with the difficulties of urban warfare and there are ways to get around it. Military analysts aren't so sure.
MICHAEL O'HANLON, BOOKINGS INSTITUTION: It's going to involve Iraqis hiding behind civilian populations, ambushing us from the basements and roofs of various buildings, trying to use shoulder- launched weaponry against our helicopters, and making life difficult. We will win but we could lose a thousand or more people if things go badly.
DAVIS (on camera): The U.S. is weighing the risks as it forges ahead with war planning. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice meet next week with President Bush at his Crawford, Texas ranch to discuss how best to deal with Saddam Hussein. Patty Davis, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: The last time around, dozens of nations joined the U.S. in battling Iraq. Saudi Arabia played a strategically vital role but shows no desire to get involved in any new conflict. Can the U.S. work around that? Joining me is CNN/Headline News military analyst Jack Liles. As a Navy officer, he flew many sorties over Iraq during the Gulf War. Good to have you with us, Jack. JACK LILES, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Hi, Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, first of all, let's talk about how crucial Saudi Arabia was to the first Persian Gulf War.
LILES: Well, it obviously was very crucial. It was centrally our base of operations from which a large percentage of the combat missions originated, from which the command and control function out of Riyadh was hosted, all the support aircraft, tankers, AWACs, reconnaissance aircraft of all types, of different types of intelligence aircraft all originated, and largely it was where Desert Shield took place, if you remember.
The preceding nine months prior to our attack, or six months prior to the attack, this is where we staged our operations, where a lot of the logistics originated, where we got prepared to go into Iraq in the winter time.
O'BRIEN: Now let's talk about some of the alternatives if, in fact, the U.S. was on the road toward some sort of attack on Iraq. First of all aircraft carriers, something you're very familiar with, prior to the Gulf War the thought of having multiple aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf really was not part of military doctrine. It is now, isn't it, and you might have as many as four aircraft carriers in the Gulf?
LILES: That's right. During the Gulf War, we actually operated as many as four at a time in the Persian Gulf, an area before the Gulf War that was deemed to be just too small to operate a carrier. The threats from surrounding countries, particularly Iran, Iraq, were seen as too great to put a carrier in that small a body of water with that short of warning time.
We sort of threw the book out as Desert Shield and Desert Storm evolved, and learned how to place carriers and operate four different aircraft carriers from the Persian Gulf body of water, as well as the Red Sea, another small body of water where we operated carriers as well, flying missions across Saudi Arabia into Iraq. So, we learned a lot about how to operate in small bodies of water.
O'BRIEN: It's still nice to have operations on (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and one of the countries which comes up time and again lately is Qatar, a country which incidentally is the home of Al-Jazeera, the Arab language news network which espouses a very, very pro-Islam doctrine, nevertheless has proved to be inviting toward U.S. forces so far?
LILES: They really have, and as we've seen, they've built up a base there in Qatar with extensive command and control capability with a huge runway, with facilities to operate a large number of the aircraft that perhaps may transfer to this Qatar area as opposed to the Saudi bases where they've been operating out of for quite a while. So it gives us another option within close range to provide extensive operations, logistics support, et cetera, for that whole area.
O'BRIEN: Let's look at a commercially available satellite image of the runway there, one of the runways that might be used there. It is being expanded as we speak, so this could be a replacement for the Prince Sultan air base that we were just talking about in Saudi Arabia. I got to say I'm sure a lot of people are very curious about the Kuwaitis, given what happened in the first Gulf War and the fat that the Kuwaitis were the target of, well the people that were saved after all.
LILES: Right.
O'BRIEN: Are they offering a lot of help to the U.S.?
LILES: It seems so but in recent months we've also seen signs of some dissent within the Kuwaiti population, some pro more fundamentalist type Arab opinion being expressed there, some dissent over American presence following the Gulf War. Obviously, however, this is a country that is very grateful and should be very grateful to the work that was done during the Gulf War to liberate that country and to free its economies and markets and people up again.
So, I think more or less we're probably expecting support from Kuwait during this time and we'll be able to use certain resources, airspace, et cetera, in any operation in that area.
O'BRIEN: Jack Liles, former Navy lieutenant commander, expert on military matters, we appreciate it. We're going to take a break. We'll be back with more in just a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Welcome back. He uses his computer skills to promote naughty housewives, but this Webmaster has turned from pornography to patriotism. We get more on this story from CNN national correspondent Mike Boettcher.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Ocean City, Maryland, America unwinds at the beach after a fall, winter, and spring of post-9/11 stress. For a few relaxing weeks, the threat of terrorism and the war being waged against it seems far away, but actually it's not.
So this is where you work, huh?
JOHN MESSNER, WEB SITE OPERATOR: Yes.
BOETTCHER: From his beachfront warfront location, John Messner commands the action from his couch and computer keyboard, his latest victory, hijacking a suspected al Qaeda website.
You had hijacked it basically and they didn't know that you actually had their site.
MESSNER: Right. They didn't realize that it wasn't the authentic site. BOETTCHER: This Internet war he's waging is his passion but it's not his full-time job. You see the tool he uses as his weapon, his keyboard, is also the tool with which he makes his living, adult Internet porn.
MESSNER: I got my first digital camera and I talked my wife into getting naked for the web site. I created, I guess, what you would call the amateur housewife next door genre or niche that ultimately became very successful with the (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
BOETTCHER: A giant poster shouting his success looms above his war room, which is also his living room. It was here, using aggressive Internet tactics he's had to employ in the adult Web site business that he managed to take over the Alneda Web site, a site that as CNN first reported four months ago carries statements from high- ranking al Qaeda members.
MESSNER: What I got was a virtual who's who of every hostile message board and Web site on the Internet.
BOETTCHER: Messner called the FBI to let them know he could secretly watch the Internet comings and goings of a suspected al Qaeda Web site. An agent came to visit him, but before any action could be taken, his trickery was detected.
MESSNER: The person that actually maintains the real al Qaeda Web site posted a message saying that it's not the real site. It's a decoy. It's a trap. The infidels have set a trap that contains adult pornography.
BOETTCHER: Messner believes an opportunity was missed.
MESSNER: We could have put out there whatever we wanted and they would have believed it not coming from their enemy but it would be coming from one of their own.
BOETTCHER: Messner still controls Alneda but he's made a few changes to the web page. His adversaries are retaliating, launching digital attempts to crash his web-based business, but he doesn't care. September 11th changed John Messner.
MESSNER: I wanted to do something and I thought, well what do I know? I know the Internet, so I made it my business at that time to do anything and everything I could within my power to disrupt the communication on the terrorists' part on the Internet.
BOETTCHER: His Porsche and its vanity plates memorializing his success in adult entertainment are, he believes, a testament that he and his family are living the American dream, while in his own way, he fights in America's war.
Mike Boettcher, CNN, Ocean City, Maryland.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: Should marijuana be treated like alcohol and tobacco? Nevada cops endorse a proposal to make possession, small amounts, legal. We'll have a debate, including the head of the Drug Enforcement Administration, Asa Hutchinson, when we come back. Plus, hurricane season roaring up to full swing, maybe it's not exactly roaring. Find out how El Nino might affect the coasts. And put away your television antennas. The boob tube is going all digital. We'll tell you what it means for your pocketbook.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Miles O'Brien. Wolf Blitzer has the day off. Coming up, Nevada's push to legalize marijuana. Should the other 49 states follow suit? We'll hear from both sides, but first, a look at some of the stories that are making news as we speak.
Bad weather and tough terrain are making recovery efforts difficult at the site of an Air Force cargo plane crash in Puerto Rico. All 10 people aboard the C-130 are presumed dead. The plane went down in rain and fog overnight about 20 miles south of San Juan. The military says the victims were based in Florida and Puerto Rico.
El Nino is coming back, and that could mean good news for those along the Atlantic coast. Meteorologists say the global weather pattern will bring a relatively mild hurricane season to the eastern United States. Forecasters expect the number of Atlantic hurricanes to drop from the usual eight, to six this season. But, El Nino is causing problems elsewhere, including a drought in Australia.
And the Centers For Disease Control and Prevention has a research team in Louisiana, a state dealing with the worst West Nile Virus outbreak in U.S. history. Twenty CDC researchers are searching for more victims. They're also conducting tests to find out what type of mosquitoes are more likely to spread the virus. This year, West Nile has killed five people, all of them in Louisiana.
A Nevada ballot initiative that would legalize the possession of small amounts of marijuana is drawing some unusual support. The board of the Nevada Conference of Police and Sheriffs has voted unanimously to endorse the plan. Rob Piercy of CNN affiliate KTNV has our story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROB PIERCY, KTNV CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On one side, metro police is undersheriff.
UNDERSHERIFF DICK WINGET, LAS VEGAS METROPOLITAN POLICE: It's not in our community's best interest and we should not stand for it.
PIERCY: On the other, the president of NCOPS.
ANDY ANDERSON, NEVADA CONFERENCE OF POLICE AND SHERIFFS: I think what we're talking about is we're talking about prioritizing our usage of police manpowers.
PIERCY: And to add yet another voice, the man spearheading Nevada's marijuana initiative. BILLY ROGERS, NEVADANS FOR RESPONSIBLE LAW ENFORCEMENT: What this initiative does is it protects people who are responsible and punishes those people who are irresponsible.
PIERCY: In the wake of yesterday's unanimous vote by NCOPS to support the initiative, all sides are now regrouping for the final three months before it's put to the people.
WINGET: NCOPS represents cops but in this case, NCOPS is way off base and they are not saying what the majority of cops in our state think.
PIERCY: Under Sheriff Richard Winget couldn't believe yesterday's votes. He says NCOPS' endorsement sends a bad message to not only voters but kids.
WINGET: This will send a message to our kids -- if the cops say it's OK -- even though a lawsuit is not OK for the young kids, they'll think it is OK.
PIERCY: NCOP president, Andy Anderson disagrees. He says this is simply about smart law enforcement.
ANDERSON: We're talking about limited resources and we're talking about not wasting a bunch of that on cases that'll never get prosecuted.
PIERCY: That's a stance shared by Billy Rogers and the Nevadans For Responsible Law Enforcement and one he says is shared by cops even if they won't admit it publicly.
ROGERS: They'll tell you that, you know, they're spending too much time arresting people for small amounts of marijuana.
PIERCY: A small amount for some, creating a great deal of controversy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: And that report came from Rob Piercy of our affiliate, KTNV and we appreciate that.
And joining us to talk about these strange political bedfellows and the initiative itself, Asa Hutchinson, director of the Drug Enforcement Agency and Robert Kampia, executive director of the Marijuana Policy Project Group, a group dedicated to legalizing marijuana.
Mr. Hutchinson, let' begin with you. Given all the matters that police have to deal with these days -- courts are clogged, the jails are full -- isn't it time to relax some of the laws as it relates to marijuana?
ASA HUTCHINSON, DIRECTOR, DRUG ENFORCEMENT AGENCY: Whenever you have good news in our society about the reduction of drug use, I don't think we ought to be changing policy. The recent Pride Survey showed that teenage use of illegal drugs was down for the first time in eight years. This is good news. Let's have a consistent message out there. And I know Nevada will look at this, but I hope that they'll consider the fact that -- do they want to be a tourist area that attracts people who want to use drugs in their state? And do you want to encourage state action that would be -- continue to be a violation of federal law...
O'BRIEN: Of course -- well, this is...
HUTCHINSON: These are very serious issues.
O'BRIEN: This is a state with very relaxed laws as it relates to prostitution, so perhaps that isn't really an issue.
Mr. Kampia, what about this issue of messages though? Is this the wrong message to send to young people that wink, nod, if it's under three ounces it's OK?
ROBERT KAMPIA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, MARIJUANA POLICY PROJECT: Well, right now, the policies that are on the books aren't working. I mean the federal government's own surveys show that year after year high school seniors find marijuana much easier to obtain than alcohol or cigarettes and those are regulated items. And so, the reason for this is that because marijuana is completely unregulated that those who sell marijuana in Nevada and elsewhere are criminals and they don't actually card you for age. Under this proposal, if Nevadans support it and pass it in November, adults who are 21 or older will be able to use marijuana without being arrested and sent to prison and those under 21 will be penalized if they can actually somehow obtain it.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Hutchinson, the argument is essentially that there's no way to stop this, that marijuana is here to stay and why not just allow it in certain reasonable ways. What's the matter with that line of argument?
HUTCHINSON: Well, first of out all, it's a harmful drug and the question is how do you discourage its use in our society to everyone including young people. And I think that we are making progress in that arena even though it is true that it is a drug that is widely available. But is there not some inconsistency that we would arrest someone for 100 pounds of marijuana, bringing it into the state whenever you would allow someone to possess three ounces of that accountability.
O'BRIEN: Well, why -- Mr. Hutchinson, why not regulate it and tax it and make it a source of revenue for the federal government?
HUTCHINSON: Well, again, I think that you would be increasing and encouraging use of it. You want to discourage use of harmful drugs. In this case, the argument is law enforcement resources -- the best signal is that it's still a violation of the law and that we should not encourage its use by saying we're just going to give a traffic ticket for its use. The fact is we're providing treatment, we're providing efforts to discourage the use and that's the direction that we ought to go. O'BRIEN: Mr. Kampia, marijuana is bad for you. Why would you want to make it legal?
KAMPIA: Well, it's not like marijuana would be introduced for the first time in Nevada. The point of this initiative is that tens of thousands of people in Nevada are already using this and they're buying it from the criminal market now. We believe that, first, that adults who use marijuana responsibly should not be arrested and sent to prison for it. At the same time, we should also maintain penalties for driving dangerously while under the influence, distributing marijuana to minor, smoking marijuana in public places; those penalties should remain on the books. And as a way of undercutting the criminal market, you want to bring marijuana in off the streets and regulate it.
O'BRIEN: Mr. Hutchinson, will the federal government try to take a stance on this one way or another or will you let the states do what they want to do, in this case, Nevada --perhaps if voters adopt this -- allow some relaxation of marijuana laws?
HUTCHINSON: Well, it's a decision the Nevada voters will make, but they will only impact state law. It would remain a violation of federal law and that message is very important whether it's California, Nevada or Arkansas. Possession of controlled substances is a violation and that includes marijuana.
Our enforcement priorities -- obviously, we're looking at methamphetamine, heroine, cocaine. Marijuana is just simply one of the responsibilities that we have. But I think that regardless of what Nevada does, clearly, it will remain a violation of federal law and I think that should be a concern. We don't need to have divergent viewpoints on a harmful drug such as marijuana.
O'BRIEN: Asa Hutchinson, Robert Kampia, thank you very much for shedding some light on this debate for us. We appreciate it.
HUTCHINSON: Thank you.
O'BRIEN: Here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our "Web Question of The Day" -- Should it be legal for adults to possess small amounts of marijuana? We invite you to vote at CNN.com/Wolf. And while you're there, send us your comments. We'll try to read some of them on the air each day, also, read our daily on-line column at CNN.com/Wolf. There, today, just in the nick of time.
Barry Bonds slugs it out for the history books. We'll tell you how he's doing as the Giants take on the Cubs. As a matter of fact, he's at bat, as we speak. Plus...
JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Baseball players threw owners a curve ball at the bargaining table this week. But this time, no one was complaining. We will have the surprising details from New York coming up.
O'BRIEN: That's Josie Karp. And also, meet the tourists who became potential shark bait at a Louisiana aquarium. I hope they got their money back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: All right, this just in to CNN. We've just learned that health officials in Illinois have confirmed that the state's second human case of West Nile Virus infection -- the 57-year-old man was critically ill with encephalitis, but is now said to be showing signs of improvement. The first case of West Nile in Illinois was confirmed Tuesday in a 22-year-old. So this worst West Nile Virus season ever in the U.S. appears to be spreading throughout the land.
Baseball fans could see history made in San Francisco today. The Giants are playing the Chicago Cubs in a game underway as we speak and Giants' slugger, Barry Bonds, just one blast away from home run number 600. That would put him in the company of Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth and Willie Mays, the only other major leaguers to hit 600 or more career home runs. So far, today, Bonds has walked twice and struck out. He was up just a moment ago. I don't know the outcome of that. Bonds hit 73 homers last year, breaking baseball's single-season home run record. You can bet if he had hit -- just hit a home run, I would know about it, however.
Now, after years of controversy, drug tests may be coming to Major League Baseball. The Players' Association has dropped its opposition to tests for performance-enhancing steroids. CNN's Josie Karp has the story for us from New York.
Hello, Josie.
KARP: Hi, Miles. You know for a variety of reasons, including all those home runs being hit, the issue of steroids testing had really emerged as a major one in the ongoing labor negotiations between baseball owners and players to try to come up with a new labor agreement and to try to avert a strike. For a very long time, as you mentioned, forever in fact, the player's union had refused to accept an agreement that included any unannounced, random testing for any drugs. But on Wednesday, the union revealed its proposal for steroid testing and by then, their stance had changed dramatically.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARP (voice-over): Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco aren't major leaguers any more, but they're the two players most responsible for the historic concession made by the player's union this week, to make random testing for illegal steroids part of their labor agreement. The two former MVPs claimed recently that steroid use at the major league level is widespread.
JASON GIAMBI, 2000 MVP: The only thing we're disappointed in is that we have to prove our innocence because two guys are running around saying, you know, there's a problem with baseball. And I don't think there really is a problem, but you know, if it's going to get agreement, we're all for it.
JOE RANDA, KANSAS CITY ROYALS: You know obviously, the integrity of the game is very important to us as players and if the public and people think that there's a problem, then it's going to be handled.
KARP: The union proposal calls for up to two years of random testing to determine how serious the problem is. Depending on the results, that could be followed by another two-year period. While not as far-reaching as proposal made by owners in February, the union's offering was well received.
ROB MANFRED, MLB CHIEF NEGOTIATOR: You can make a proposal in order to say that you made a proposal. We believe this proposal was made in an effort to push the issue forward to an agreement.
MIKE STANTON, NEW YORK YANKEES: We have to figure out if there's problem to start off with. And you know, there's been a lot of talk about it up until now, but everything's been on -- you know, on people's emotions and not actual facts. So we have to figure out how big if there's problem at all.
KARP (on-camera): The details of the drug testing program will be worked in negotiating sessions like the ones that continue to take place here at Major League Baseball headquarters in New York. At the table, drug testing has now moved from potential sticking point to probable bargaining chip.
GIAMBI: Since we kind of conceded on that issue and didn't really fight over it and you know, kind of pushed it through -- among the players that I think we're looking for a big move from them. So hopefully, it might be a situation where we get something done quickly.
JASON GRIMSLEY, KANSAS CITY ROYALS: This is something that, as union, we've adamantly opposed, you know, in the past, period. And you know, for us to -- as a union, to take a step that way, I think that shows a lot on our part on our willingness to get something done and get something done quick.
KARP (voice-over): Players and owners still have to find common ground regarding the major economic issues of revenue sharing and a competitive balance tax. The union's executive boards meets on Monday in Chicago and players could decide to set a strike date depending on how much progress has been made on those topics.
In New York, I'm Josie Karp.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARP: The union was expected, again, to meet with the baseball owners' representatives today. And when I spoke to the lead negotiator, he has told me that this afternoon that the owners were planning to make their counter-proposal to the latest steroids testing proposal that the union first presented yesterday -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, that's Josie Karp in New York. Thank you very much, Josie. We appreciate it.
The government took a dramatic step today in its effort to convert the United States to digital television. The FCC ordered manufacturers to start putting digital tuners on all TV sets by July 2007. There's already controversy in all this. To help walk us through all of this, here is CNN's Renay San Miguel.
Renay, this is a fairly complicated story, but let's try to lay this out for people. The bottom line is digital TV is coming.
RENAY SAN MIGUEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yes.
O'BRIEN: The question is how will the sets be designed and what will be in them. And I guess it's important to point out how many people -- how are people watching TV these days...
SAN MIGUEL: Exactly.
O'BRIEN: ... cable, satellite or over the air?
SAN MIGUEL: It's mostly cable and satellite. And we'll get to that in just a second. But we've been talking about this for about the last six years. Digital TV was supposed to bring a whole world of services to consumers -- better picture, better sound, more channels and, eventually, true interactive television. But, the government believes that TV manufacturers have dragged their digital feet over the past few years in bringing that service to customers. So, today, the Federal Communications Commission voted to set down deadlines for the transition from analog TV to digital.
Now, we want to show you the schedule as they agreed upon it today. The big TV sets will be the ones you'll be able to buy first, with -- 36-inch screens or larger will digital tuners included and they will hit store shelves first. A 100 percent of them must be digital by July 1 of 2005. Now, you'll be able to buy bigger digital TV sets before that, but 100 percent of all new sets that size must be digital by mid-2005. All 25 to 35-inch TV's must be digital by July 1 of 2006. And then, the smaller TV's, 13 to 24-inch screens, as well as all VCRs and DVD players that receive a broadcast signal, must be digital by July 1, 2007.
The Consumer Electronics Association say these mandated deadlines will do two things -- they will raise the cost of a digital TV by $250 per set and that will cost the industry and consumers $7 billion over time, and it also will force consumers to buy an over-the-air digital tuner that they don't need. And this is what you and I talked about earlier, Miles.
The CEA says fewer than 13 percent of all U.S. households rely on over-the-air reception. Most are on cable and satellite and those signals are already digital, Miles.
O'BRIEN: And I suppose you could make an argument, Renay, that the people who are still using rabbit ears are the least likely to want to get a digital picture anyway or go out and buy one of these things. Let me ask you this -- why not make it an option? Why not have sets that are available that are just, you know, basic sets and some with tuners and give people the choice?
SAN MIGUEL: Well, because the government is looking to make some money off of the option of that analog TV signal. The government wants 85 percent of all new TV sets sold to be able to receive a digital signal. When that 85 percent number is hit, then it can stop the analog TV signals. It can stop mandating those to be sent out.
The government wants to take those signals and wants to auction them off to the highest bidder for other devices, like third generation cell phones that can also receive the Internet wirelessly. You know, budgets out into the future, past 2007, are already counting on that money coming in. So the government would like to be able to get to that point much quicker.
O'BRIEN: All right, Renay San Miguel, thank you very much for shedding some light...
SAN MIGUEL: Sure.
O'BRIEN: ... on things digital today. We appreciate it.
SAN MIGUEL: No problem.
O'BRIEN: Ten people plunge into a shark tank. And this is not a scene from a "James Bond" movie gone awry. This really happened, folks. And we'll show you just how it turned out, just ahead. And a haunting discovery inside the gun turret of a warship sunk during the Civil War.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: Earlier we asked -- "Where do asteroids come from?" The answer, asteroids are ancient space rubble left over from the formation of the solar system about 4.6 billion years ago. Scientists believe they are pieces of planet that had been prevented from bonding because of competing gravitational forces. Now, you know.
There was some tense moments on an Alaska Airlines jet shortly after taking off from Boston. This amateur video captured a series of short bursts of flames coming from one of the engines on the Boeing 737 yesterday. The Seattle-bound plane was forced to return to Boston. An airline spokesman says the engine never caught fire and was not shut down. There you see them in slow motion. He says the flames probably were just caused by the engine backfiring, don't worry about it folks. We'll be on Boston in just a few moments. The 154 passengers were just fine and made their way on other aircraft.
Officials in North Carolina say more human remains have been found inside the gun turret of the Civil War ironclad Monitor. Today's discovery of the remains of at least two people comes two days after the 120-ton turret of the Union vessel was raised from the wreckage site off Cape Hatteras. On Saturday, Navy divers removed much of a human skeleton found inside the turret. The Navy is treating the remains as those of MIAs and is sending them to the Army's Central Identification Lab in Hawaii.
To some adventure-seekers, swimming with sharks may sound like a thrill, but, it was a complete surprise to 10 people who fell into a shark tank at the New Orleans Aquarium when the platform they were on collapsed. Dawn Ostrom, from CNN affiliate WGNO, has their story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ERIN ROONEY, FELL IN SHARK TANK: It just broke, you know, and everybody just fell. I don't really know -- I just happened to fall in.
DAWN OSTROM, WGNO CORRESPONDENT: Erin Rooney has wet clothes and a scrape on her foot from a barnacle. She fell into the tank with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) sharks and Sand Tiger Sharks with her sister, her 5- year-old cousin and 2-year-old niece.
ROONEY: I didn't really even think about the sharks. I just wanted to get out of the water.
OSTROM: Her mother and father were watching from dry ground.
DAN ROONEY, ERIN'S DAD: And I was just praying that none of the sharks got agitated from all the splashing and everything. I mean they had sharks in there bigger than me.
OSTROM: The 2-year-old and 5-year-old went to the hospital with a couple of bumps and scrapes. Aquarium officials say the visitors and volunteers quickly jumped to the rescue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a serious thing, falling into a tank, but thank goodness, no one got hurt seriously.
OSTROM: Michael Delpigio (ph) and his daughter have home video of the catwalk across the shark tank. They just did the behind-the- scenes tour Wednesday. The bridge they had walked on collapsed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's kind of frightening.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: I'm not going over that thing again.
OSTROM: Erin Rooney says fear probably won't hit for now. She has a story to tell her friends.
ROONEY: I swam with the sharks.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
O'BRIEN: All right, that from Dawn Ostrom with our CNN affiliate, WGNO. And we thank her very much for that.
Let's go check out and see what's going up in New York. "MONEYLINE" with Lou Dobbs is coming up. Here's Lou with a preview.
Hello, Lou.
LOU DOBBS, HOST, "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE": Hello, Miles, thank you. Coming up tonight, we'll be reporting on the worse outbreak of West Nile Virus. It is spreading, in fact. Alabama and now, Washington D.C. reporting the first human cases of the virus. We'll have the very latest for you. The stock market scores a third straight win. Financial issues helped lift the Dow Jones Industrial more than 250 points. And Florida's Congressman, Mark Foley, is now calling for an investigation of Citigroup and Citigroup executive, Robert Rubin. Congressman Foley contends Rubin called the Treasury Department on behalf the Enron after Rubin had left the department. Congressman Mark Foley will be my guest tonight and we'll have that and a lot more. Please join us. Now, let's go back to Miles O'Brien -- Miles.
O'BRIEN: All right, thank you very much, Lou. Only two minutes left to weigh in on our "Question of The Day" -- should it be legal for adults to possess small amounts of marijuana? Hit us on the Web for that. And snakes that can fly? That's our "Picture of The Day." It's true, folks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
O'BRIEN: And now for the results you've been waiting for, our "Web Question of The Day" -- should it be legal for adults to possess small amounts of marijuana? Eighty-three percent of you said, "yes," 17 percent of you said, "no." Interesting numbers. Smoke them if you got them, I guess. Remember, this is not a scientific poll.
And now, here's something you don't see every day. That's our goal here, to give you things like that. Our "Picture of The Day" is a rare look at flying snakes. Well, actually, they're gliding. They're Paradise Tree Snakes. They don't fly. They spring into the air and they kind of suck in their stomachs and they're able to glide for a few seconds. The maneuver allows them to leap between trees, chase aerial prey and avoid predators. A University of Chicago researcher went to Singapore to take pictures of them in action. Undoubtedly, there are some people who have flown on the sight of them in the jungle.
That's all the time we have for today. I'm Miles O'Brien for Wolf Blitzer. Lou Dobbs and "MONEYLINE" up right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
