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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Hundreds of Haitian Refugees Reach Florida
Aired October 29, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The sniper shootings, as local jurisdictions jockey to do justice, the Feds file their own charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: To make sure that the most serious penalties are available to address very serious crimes like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The suspects now accused of a murder in Tacoma, Washington, and what may be a hate crime as well.
Can they get a fair trial, anywhere? I'll ask two of America's best-known defense attorneys, Roy Black and Alan Dershowitz.
Is it a case of a good boy gone bad?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's never had a criminal record?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's always had good grades?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: An exclusive visit in Jamaica with the family of John Lee Malvo.
Showdown: Iraq. Like father like son? A look at Baghdad's first family.
And, back to Afghanistan. Free from a U.S. camp in Cuba, former Taliban suspects talk about their secret detention.
It's Tuesday, October 29, 2002. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Hundreds of Haitians have arrived in Florida after jumping off a boat along the Key Biscayne shore.
CNN's Mark Potter is standing by in Miami with more.
Mark, tell us all about it. MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this all started about an hour and a half ago along the Rickenbacker Causeway -- that's the bridge that connects the Miami area mainland with Key Biscayne. And a Coast Guard vessel that was checking on buoys spotted this 50-foot wooden Haitian coastal freighter with an estimated 250 people aboard.
They started to track the boat. They notified the Miami beach Coast Guard base that they had this situation. As the boat approached the bridge, it ran aground, according to the Coast Guard, and the people started jumping overboard into the water.
That's an inherently dangerous situation. And the Coast Guard rushed to the scene to make sure that no one drowned. Local police agencies raced to the bridge to try to stop the people who got out on the bridge. As you can see here, many of them approached cars that were starting to build up the afternoon rush hour traffic.
This is not only dangerous because of the people in the water. But if you can imagine, Wolf, 200 people on a 50-foot boat. Now, this is something that we've seen in the past here in Miami many times over the past decades, particularly in the early 1980s, when these coastal freighters regularly came to Miami with these people from Haiti, predominantly, smuggled inside.
The boats were banned eventually from the Miami river because of that problem and because of the safety situation. But again, one of these freighters has made it through. It apparently came up past Key Biscayne and made its way into the waterway near the Rickenbacker Causeway.
Authorities on the scene are trying to round up as many people as they can. And we are told by an INS official that they will be taken to a detention facility, where they will then be questioned by INS officials. They will go into INS custody. And the typical procedure is, they will be questioned to see what happened.
And also they will be given an opportunity, if they wish, to apply for political asylum. But the chances are not great that they will be granted asylum, at least that most will be granted asylum, because typically they are seen as economic refugees. And their fate is likely that they will be sent back to Haiti -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Mark, we have some dramatic pictures. I want to show our viewers, once some of these Haitians got on shore, look at this. They're managing to get through the water. They're obviously very desperate people. Give us some context to what we're seeing right now.
POTTER: As I told you before, we have seen this so many times. And the pictures that you're seeing here with children, men, women, sometimes pregnant women, on these boats. There is an udder desperation that would drive someone to get into a crowded situation like this and risk their live.
The Straights of Florida are very dangerous. These boats are relatively seaworthy, as designed, but they're not designed for 200 people. And we have had horrible situations here in the past, where these boats are broken apart, the people are lost at sea, sometimes very close to shore.
I remember a very tragic situation we had in the West Palm Beach area in the early 1980s, when one of these boats broke apart in the surf and a number of people died within clear sight of shore, within the surf right next to shore. And this is a situation, as I said, that we have seen here many times.
The Coast Guard yesterday actually predicted that we would start seeing an increase in traffic from Haiti to south Florida and also from Cuba, because the seas are starting to lay down a little bit. We've had some rough weather with the hurricanes and the storms that came through, the tropical storms.
Now those storms have dissipated. The waters have gotten calmer. And the prediction yesterday was that we would see some more of this activity and here it is. Although I don't think anybody thought we would see this old style of people coming to this country that way.
Typically they now come in smaller boats or they're in larger freighters. This really is a throwback to some 20 years ago, when we saw this quite frequently.
BLITZER: I remember those days well. Mark Potter, stand by. I want to get back to you as this story continues to unfold.
Joining me now to talk about the possible legal implications of what we're seeing is Lida Rodriguez-Taseff. She's joining us by phone. She's the president of the greater Miami ACLU.
You know a great deal about what happens to these Haitians who actually got on shore. What's your assessment of what will happen to them?
LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, PRES., ACLU MIAMI: Our assessment is based on what's been happening to them over the last several months. I predict that they will be interviewed and many of them will pass their credible fear interview, meaning that they have a credible fear of persecution and they should have an opportunity to apply for asylum. Even if they do, they will be detained and there will be summary proceedings and they'll be deported.
You know, we need to look at the cause of why these people are coming to shore like this and running away. There is a policy, with regard to Cubans, that is called the wet foot/dry foot policy -- meaning, if you make it to shore, you are here, you are safe, and you'll be granted asylum, no questions asked. The same is not true for Haitians, and the desperation is showing.
BLITZER: It's clearly an economic issue as opposed to a political issue. These are desperately poor people, right?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: No, I don't think it's an economic issue. That's why 90 percent of the people who came here in December of 2001 passed their credible fear interview test, meaning they showed a fear of political persecution, they showed that they had a right to political asylum.
And despite of that, we were talking about 188 passengers that came in December. About 13 of them were children. They have been sent back. They were detained, even though every other nationality of person who comes here proves they have a credible fear, they get to stay in the United States. Not true with Haitians, and you're seeing the results of a very misguided policy.
BLITZER: All right, Lida, thanks for joining us. I'm glad we got your assessment. I want to get another point of view right now, Detective Delrish Moss. He's on the causeway. He's joining us on the phone.
Detective, give us the latest. What's happening, from your vantage point?
DELRISH MOSS, MIAMI POLICE: Basically, what we're doing is, we're setting up a triage area to make sure that everyone that's here has the medical attention they need. Because obviously they've been on the water for a couple days and some of them are dehydrated, and so forth.
We've got several dozen people down here. And basically we called in all of our Creole-speaking officers so we can have translators. It's actually, we're going to take a back seat to the federal authorities, now that we've gotten things as under control as possible.
BLITZER: Any signs that some people didn't make it, that they may have drowned offshore?
MOSS: So far we've got nothing to that -- we've got nothing in that direction from the interviews thus far. And everyone looks to be in fairly decent shape so far.
I think our big concern right now is we've gotten some reports that some people may have left the causeway by way of car or pickup truck or whatever, from people that were passing by, who saw their flight and felt sorry for them.
Other than that, we think that we've gotten most of them contained here. And we're giving them some food, we're giving them some water, and trying to see their medical needs and basic creature comforts before we turn them over.
BLITZER: And so what happens to them after you turn them over, as far as you know, Detective?
MOSS: Well, as far as I know, they go to the federal parties and I guess things will be set up to take them to a holding facility. And the necessary interviews will take place and so forth. But at this point, that's really not the city's primary concern. Our concern is...
(AUDIO GAP) BLITZER: I think we may have lost Detective Delrish Moss. He's on the scene for us. Just to recap, a boat carrying about 200 Haitian refugees managed to get close to the Key Biscayne shore. They managed to get close enough for a bunch of them, probably as many as 100, maybe more, to jump overboard and to try to swim to shore.
Many of them, of course, did manage to do that. Some of them have since managed to get away. But a lot of others, as we just heard, are just being picked up by local law enforcement. They'll be handed over to federal authorities, questioned. Some will be allowed to stay, presumably, but many others will be forced to go back to Haiti.
Roy Black, a prominent criminal defense attorney in Miami is joining us now.
Roy, what's your understanding of what happens to these Haitians who managed to get onshore, to get in the United States?
ROY BLACK, ATTORNEY: Well, Wolf, as Lida explained to you, they're going to be taken and interrogated about the basis for them coming here. They'll be held in detention, and I predict almost all of them will be sent back to Haiti.
BLITZER: Unlike Cubans, there's a special provision for Cubans who manage to touch U.S. soil. Isn't that right?
BLACK: Yes, it's a very touchy issue here because the Cubans have a long history, since the beginning of Castro, of political repression. So the United States is very eager to say that anyone coming from Cuba has been suffering because of (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Of course, it's true.
It's much more difficult with Haiti because Haiti is a friendly country to us. So the United States doesn't want to admit there's political repression there.
BLITZER: This law that currently exists only applies to Cuban refugees and no one else, is that right?
BLACK: Yes, because that's directed directly at the Castro government, which clearly is a repressive. communist government which mistreats people. And people fleeing there in small boats and rafts are routinely granted political asylum because of that.
BLITZER: We know that the Cuban-American community in south Florida has a lot of political clout. But there is increasing numbers of Haitian Americans as well. Are they politically organized to any extent at all, that they might have some impact on what these Haitian refugees are going to be allowed to do?
BLACK: They're certainly working on that. But they have nowhere near the political clout that Cuban-Americans have. Cuban-Americans have a tremendous political clout in south Florida, and that stretches from here up to Washington. You notice that presidential candidates come down here and court that vote all the time. While Haitian-Americans are getting a larger voice, excuse me, they're not anywhere near that. And they haven't come anywhere near succeeding in getting the same kind of rights.
BLITZER: You live there in Miami. How much of a surprise should this dramatic development of today have really been to residents down there and to law enforcement?
BLACK: As you mentioned before, we've seen this quite often in the last 20 years or so. I just hope that nobody dies as a result of this. We're used to seeing sometimes these boats breaking up. And these boats are really pretty horrible. And a lot of people have died making this crossing.
And it just shows how desperate these people are. And when you look at this film, how can you not have sympathy for these poor people?
BLITZER: All right, stand by, Roy, because I want to bring back Mark Potter, our Miami correspondent.
Mark, you've been down there a long time. Was this a huge surprise, what unfolded late this afternoon?
POTTER: I think it was. We haven't seen this very often. And, again, these coastal freighters, the wooden freighters are something that we haven't seen in a long time. We used to see them all the time.
I think it probably was a surprise, to law enforcement as well as to everyone else, this sort of scene, which Roy said and we talked about earlier, was something that was seen regularly a long time ago. It has not been repeated for some time.
I want to answer one of the other questions that you asked of Delrish Moss, and that was about any fatalities. Of course, we don't know for sure, but just a few moments ago I did speak to an official at the U.S. Coast Guard who said that, as of right now, the Coast guard officials do not believe that anybody has been lost in the water.
That's not a definitive statement, but as it stands right now, they don't think that anyone has drowned. At least they have no record of it. And again, one of the good things associated with this boat in terms of the safety issue, is that it grounded right near the bridge area.
It ran ashore so the people were able to get to shallow water quite quickly. Although we did see that there were some people swimming there. And that's always a very, very dangerous situation.
One other thing I'll tell you about these boats, Wolf, is that in the past they were used as smuggling vessels. And the people were actually secreted inside of these boats. I've ridden on these things in the past, Wolf, and I can tell you it must be a horrible passage to spend any time in these things.
They actually had secret compartments behind the pilot house on these boats, and also down below on the bilge area. They would cram, as you have seen here, hundreds of people, 200 in this case, on a small boat. And they would cross through with everybody hidden inside so they wouldn't be detected by the authorities. All they would see was a boat. And it was hard to know, without boarding and checking, that there could be potentially 200 people on board.
These boats are strong and they're reliable when used as they're supposed to be used. But again, when you get this many people on board, this is a very dangerous situation. And I'm sure the authorities are hoping they don't see a repeat of this.
BLITZER: All right, stand by, Mark.
We have an eyewitness who just spoke to our affiliates. I want you to listen to what this eyewitness saw as this story was unfolding.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER MILLER, WITNESS: People started running up over the bridge. Some started jumping on cars, hijacking cars...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now we're looking at the tape of these people, really running in the water. Some of them just taking off, looking for any kind of getaway they could find.
MILLER: Anything that they could do, they were just -- I mean, they were jumping on rocks. They were just hurting themselves, bleeding. It was just a horrible, horrible experience for them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You and I talked also about the emotional aspect of this. You are Cuban. We have gotten interviews with some of these refugees, saying they simply couldn't stand another day in Haiti, that they were living in horrible conditions and wanted to get away.
It's heartbreaking to see children and families risking their lives to come to America.
MILLER: Absolutely, especially not being guaranteed any type of asylum, which I'm sure that they know that they won't. And most of these people, unfortunately, will be sent back to Haiti. So it's just -- I mean, just any attempt to live a better life is what they're aiming at.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jennifer Miller, thank you so much for standing by. We appreciate your insight here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And so there it is, a dramatic story unfolding in south Florida. Dozens of Haitians swimming ashore, desperate to get to the United States, hoping to be able to stay here without being forced to go back. Although, as we've heard from our legal experts, many if not all of them eventually, if they're rounded up by federal law enforcement, will in fact be forced to go back to Haiti. We're going to continue to monitor this story and bring you all the late-breaking developments.
But right now, let's turn to some other news that we're covering right now, including the Washington-area sniper case. For the first time, the attorney defending suspect John Muhammad spoke out this afternoon about his client. It happened just after the federal government filed its own charges against Muhammad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM WYDA, PUBLIC DEFENSE ATTY.: At this point we still have not heard any evidence in a court of law against Mr. Muhammad. We know a few things at this point.
Mr. Muhammad is a 41-year-old father. He was an American who served in the Persian Gulf. He was honorably discharged from the United States military. He's never been convicted of another crime at any time, anywhere.
Now, today he stands accused of an incomprehensible crime, one that has had a profound impact on our community and has destroyed the lives of good people and innocent families. What I'm asking you to do at this point is to wait for the process to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The lawyer representing John Muhammad. We'll hear much more from him, of course, as this story also continues to unfold.
Let's get some more now on the first federal charges filed against John Muhammad, charges that could carry the death sentence. For that, we turn to our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the federal government's complaint is the latest in a string of charges against the suspects.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): At least one of the federal charges against John Allan Muhammad carries a death penalty sentence. And, according to Attorney General John Ashcroft, ensuring that penalty is the overriding concern.
ASHCROFT: There are people who are saying that they don't think the ultimate penalties ought to be available, whether they're editorialists or others, who don't believe in the death penalty. I believe that the ultimate sanction ought to be available here.
ARENA: Charges in the federal complaints include the use of a firearm during a crime of violence, conspiracy to commit offenses against the United States, conspiracy to affect interstate commerce by extortion and discharging a firearm into a school zone.
ASHCROFT: It alleges the most severe and atrocious of crimes. It provides a basis for additional investigation.
ARENA: The complaint does not name the younger suspect, 17-year- old John Malvo, because he is a juvenile. But it is expected that he too will be charged with federal capital offenses, though he cannot federally face the death penalty.
The federal complaint follows the filing of charges by four counties in Maryland and Virginia. But which jurisdiction gets to go to court first remains an open question.
KIRBY PORTER, VA. COMMONWEALTH'S ATTY.: Virginia should go first. There's no argument or discord.
ARENA: Justice sources agree, citing stronger death penalty laws than exist in Maryland. They suggest Prince William and Fairfax Counties in Virginia are leading contenders.
PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Virginia jurors are much more likely to sentence someone to death that Maryland. And executions are much more likely to be carried out in Virginia, including executions of minors.
ARENA: The affidavit in the complaint lays out specifics in the case, including the demand for $10 million and various options laid out by the alleged snipers for payment.
Officials allege that the two were living out of the blue Chevy Caprice that they were ultimately found in. Part of what was recovered in or near that car: a GPS system along with a laptop computer and a pair of two-way radios.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
The affidavit also alleges that Muhammad referred to his associate, Malvo, as sniper. That's at least according to one acquaintance. Now, that seems to support allegations by some investigators that the juvenile was the shooter in at least one of the attacks -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Kelli Arena with all the latest, Thanks, Kelli, very much.
Joining us now to talk more about who should prosecute the sniper case, the former attorney general of the United States, Dick Thornburgh. Mr. Attorney General, thanks so much for joining us. Who should get first crack at prosecuting these two guys?
DICK THORNBURGH, FMR. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We'll, you've got seven different jurisdictions where homicides occurred. And, theoretically, they could all proceed with prosecutions. I think there are hurdles in every one of those jurisdictions as to an effective prosecution, given the fact that there seems to be a consensus that the death penalty, if we're going to have one, is appropriate in a case like this.
The fact that the federal government filed charges today doesn't necessarily mean they're commandeering the case. It could well be a backup or a reserve against other cases coming up. But I think it's going to take a while to sort out the evidence, the particular laws involved, and then make an informed decision on where this should go.
BLITZER: So the final decision will be that of the attorney general, John Ashcroft.
THORNBURGH: It will be, because the federal government has the defendants in custody now. So, as a practical matter, they will direct them to the court where the trial is going to proceed.
BLITZER: If the federal government, the U.S. attorney, wants to go first, they couldn't file the death sentence, ask for the death sentence against the 17-year-old under federal law.
THORNBURGH: That's right. That's one of the hurdles that exists, with regard to a federal prosecution. That same hurdle exists in Maryland, Virginia. Malvo, the younger defendant, would be subject to the death penalty. The age there is 15.
But there are other problems in Virginia as well. It's by no means clear that the statute there covers anyone except the trigger man, so-called, with the exception of recently-passed statute that might well cover them.
BLITZER: Is there any sense, though, that given the fact that the Attorney General John Ashcroft has made no secret of his support for the death penalty, that he would be more inclined to let Virginia go forward rather than Maryland, where there's a much more difficult hurdle to overcome as far as actually imposing a death sentence?
THORNBURGH: I think if he's satisfied that under Virginia law this case can go forward and be prosecuted. But that requires a very careful review of Virginia law, and a very careful review of the evidence that's available.
But there's no hurry, because however swiftly these charges may be filed, there's going to be an awful lot of pretrial skirmishing before these cases actually come to trial. There will be requests for change of venue, I'm sure.
There's likely to be some kind of insanity or mental impairment test to be imposed. And we'll wait a long time, I think, before we see the gavel come down opening this trial.
BLITZER: As you know, in a lot of other high-profile criminal cases in recent years, there have been plea agreements that have been accepted. Do you think it's at all reasonable in this kind of case, with the emotions, the passion and the terror that was caused, that the government would try to flip, let's say the younger Malvo to testify against Muhammad, and in exchange, get a reduced sentence, if you will?
THORNBURGH: That's a possible scenario, but it depends on something that you and I don't know, and that is the quality and kind of the evidence that the authorities have against each of these folks. I think the notion of a plea in this kind of case would go down pretty hard with the public.
BLITZER: Given the fact that so many people were killed and it did cause so much distress, so much pain and anger. Thanks very much, Dick Thornburgh.
THORNBURGH: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: I'm sure you're happy you're not in John Ashcroft's shoes right now.
THORNBURGH: I should say.
BLITZER: Thank you very much.
Here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of the day is this: should authorities seek the death penalty for 17- year-old John Lee Malvo? We'll have the results later in this program. Go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. That's where you can vote.
Also. while you're there, I'd like to hear from you. Send me your comments and your questions. I'll try to get some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily on-line column.
Let's turn now to "Showdown: Iraq." Is time running out for the United Nations to reach a decision on disarming Iraq? Should U.N. weapons inspectors be accompanied, for example, by the news media?
Let's go live to CNN's Richard Roth. He's at the United Nations. Rym Brahimi in Baghdad. But let's begin with CNN senior White House correspondent John King.
John, first of all, has the Bush administration, as far as you can tell, set a deadline?
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Publicly, Wolf, no. Secretary of State Powell, the White House, saying today negotiations continuing. Some sense of optimism that progress is being made. But we are told by officials they have not ruled out using the U.S. veto.
Secretary Powell saying today there might come a time when everyone should put their proposals forward and have votes. U.S. officials say if France, for example, puts forward a resolution under such a scenario that the United States did not like, it might veto that resolution.
No hard deadline yet. The negotiations continue. Look at Tuesday, November 12, and circle that date on the calendar. It is on that date that we would be able to say that the president has not met the test he laid out at the United Nations when he said the U.N. should deal with this in days and weeks, not months and years. On November 12 it will be two months since the president's speech -- Wolf. BLITZER: John King at the White House, thanks very much.
How is the tough talk from the White House playing at the Security Council? For that, let's go live to our senior U.N. correspondent, Richard Roth.
Richard, are they feeling the pressure there?
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: They're feeling it, but many of the council members say, we only got the resolution a week and a half ago. It was among the big powers for more time than that. Secretary-General Kofi Annan told me today that these things will take time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: I think the Security Council is going about this deliberately and very carefully. It is a serious matter. And I think we shouldn't forget that the council as a whole got the resolution only last Monday. So it's about a week. And I think for them to take their time and discuss this issue seriously is something that we should be grateful for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Kofi Annan had more phone calls with Secretary of State Powell who, in Washington today, said that the resolution may not be voted on this week. The French and the Americans are talking about this heavily, and we've just been told that today's scheduled consultations, supposed to start just now, have been postponed to begin Wednesday morning at 10:00 a.m. -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Richard Roth, thanks very much for that report.
If U.S. weapons inspectors do go back into Iraq, should the news media make the rounds with them? For that, let's go live to CNN's Rym Brahimi in Baghdad -- Rym.
RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, here's the situation as seen from Baghdad. The Iraqi officials here say that the U.S. draft resolution goes against their sovereignty. They say it's an attempt to deliberately create clashes between the U.N. inspectors and Iraq by just complicating the rules of engagement of the inspectors.
So here's what they're trying to do. Iraqi officials, like the Iraqi vice president, has advocated that the international media just accompany the inspectors when they come back and on all their visits to different sites.
They also want independent observers to be there along with him, the argument being that they have no faith at all in U.N. inspectors, that after their previous experiences, the inspectors could very well be here to spy. And so they're calling for transparency.
On the face of it, there's also the issue that, realistically, Wolf, it seems there's very little that Iraq could do if such a tough resolution were adopted at the U.N. Security Council. And so this response calling for more transparency is pretty much all the Iraqi government seems to be able to do at this stage -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Rym Brahimi in Baghdad, thanks very much.
Maintaining the regime in Baghdad is a family affair. CNN's Christiane Amanpour takes us inside Iraq for a look at the powerful sons of President Saddam Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Abbas el- Janabi worked for Uday for 15 years before defecting to the UK in 1998. As press secretary and private secretary, Janabi had unusual access.
ABBAS EL JANABI, UDAY'S FORMER SECRETARY: He is so aggressive. And everybody knows that one day he killed his father's servant. And everybody knows one day that he shoot his uncle, his own uncle.
AMANPOUR: Uday's sexual exploits are legendary too. He is said to have taken women from their husbands or fiances and families and violently abused them.
LATIF YAHIA, AUTHOR: Uday, everything is public. Everyone know what he's doing, how he live, how he doing, how (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and how he pick the girls. And just his live is girls and you know, sex and drink. And this is his other life.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Latif Yahia claims to have worked as Uday's official body double from 1987 to 1991. Iraqi officials and other dissidents deny his story, but this is not in dispute. In 1990, Yahia used the resemblance to travel to Kuwait and steal expensive cars. He said, on Uday's orders. Baghdad said he was an imposture and made him confess on television. But Janabi who was on Uday's official payroll testifies to Uday's taste for dollars and corruption.
ABBAS EL JANABI, UDAY'S FORMER SECRETARY: Wherever you go, in any ministry, he has some people there, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), you know, whatever he want.
AMANPOUR: Janabi believes the son could demobilize up to 6,000 men to defend his father should the regime come under attack again.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Uday Hussein is not considered to be Saddam Hussein's favorite son or the more likely heir of parent. To learn more about Saddam Hussein's favorite son, Qusay, watch "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT," 8:00 Eastern.
They were among the first released from the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. And now, three Afghan prisoners are back in Kabul, expected to return to their families shortly. They've been talking about their capture and their time at the island facility.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUHAMMED SIDDIO, FORMER DETAINEE (through translator): Under the Taliban, when they were bombing, I was sick for 10 days. I didn't know what was happening. They just tied my hands and took me on the plane and I was gone.
JAN MOHAMMAD, FORMER DETAINEE (through translator): If I was a Taliban, why would they release me from there? But there are still Taliban in Guantanamo Bay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All three say they were held for a long period, caved, sometimes shackled and interrogated but not abused. Hundreds of detainees remain at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay.
A breaking story off South Florida, a rush to freedom. Coming up also, from polite student to sniper shooting suspect. How did John Lee Malvo become a central character in a grizzly crime spree? An exclusive visit to his hometown in Jamaica. All that coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Wolf Blitzer. Coming up, legal strategy for the sniper suspects, how would top lawyers handle this case. We'll talk with Allen Dershowitz and Roy Black in just a few minutes.
Hundred of Haitians have arrived in Florida after jumping off a boat along the Key Biscayne Shore. For an update, let's bring back CNN's Mark Potter. He's standing by in Miami with this continuing story -- Mark.
MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf, a couple of developments since we last talked. The boat itself, the 50-foot wooden coastal freighter, the Haitian freighter, is being towed now by the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard has 12 vessels on the scene and is very concerned about making sure that no one has been left behind in the water. Right now the Coast Guard says it has no reports of any serious injuries or any fatalities, but, again, that investigation continues.
On another front, the people who made it to shore, the estimated 200 people or so are being rounded up. Many of them have been rounded up and have been put onto jail buses. They will be taken to a detention facility where they will be questioned by INS officials and other federal authorities who want to answer two questions. One, was this a smuggling scheme? Where did these people come from? Did they come directly from Haiti or was this a transshipment through the Bahamas? And the question will be raised about whether any of them have a credible fear of persecution in Haiti? Will any of them raise asylum claims? They will be given a chance to do that as part the questioning, but typically in these cases involving people from Haiti, most are sent back. And the predictions early from the legal experts here is that is what will happen in this case too --Wolf.
BLITZER: Mark Potter, he's on the scene for us, covering this story, which he knows so well. No reporter knows it better than Mark Potter. Thanks very much, Mark.
Let's bring in Cheryl Little. She's with the Florida Advocacy Immigration Center. She's on her way.
I assume, Cheryl, you're heading there to try to help these Haitian refugees. Is that what you're doing?
CHERYL LITTLE, FLORIDA ADVOCACY IMMIGRATION CENTER: Well, that's what I'm trying to do but the traffic has pretty much come to a full stop.
BLITZER: What do you -- what is your immediate goal right now, Cheryl?
LITTLE: Well, we want to make sure that the Haitians are being treated fairly and humanely and that if they've made it to dry land, that they're given an opportunity to apply for political asylum.
BLITZER: What makes you think that the U.S. government, federal or local authorities, might not be treating them fairly or humanely?
LITTLE: Well, in early December, a boatload of 157 Haitians were brought to shore by the U.S. Coast Guard and since that time, INS officials have not released Haitians who convince asylum officers that they have a credible fear of persecution upon return to Haiti, unlike other groups. In the Miami district, if you're from any other country other than Haiti and you've passed your credible fear interview, you're quickly released so you can then try to find an attorney and prepare your asylum case. The Haitian cases, because the Haitians are not being released, their cases are expedited and they've had just weeks to try to find lawyers and prepare their cases.
BLITZER: Most of these Haitians who managed to get ashore are quickly sent back to Haiti, is that right?
LITTLE: Well, the Haitians who arrived in early December, most of them have now been ordered removed from the United States and it's about 10 months later.
BLITZER: I think we lost Cheryl Little.
LITTLE: Yes, I can hear you now, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Cheryl. You were just going to finish up your thought, go ahead.
LITTLE: Yes, I -- can you hear me?
BLITZER: I hear you.
LITTLE: Yes. No, we're very concerned that if these Haitians convince asylum officers that they have credible asylum claims, they should be released like every other group is in the Miami district, so they have fair opportunity to make their case for political asylum.
BLITZER: Cheryl Little, she's on the way to try to help these Haitians. We'll see how well you can do. Cheryl Little, thanks for joining us on the phone.
Let's turn to a CNN exclusive. John Lee Malvo is perhaps the real mystery of the sniper killings. The key question is this, how did a young boy well regarded by Jamaican friends and teachers end up a sniper suspect with John Muhammad? CNN's Fredricka Whitfield traveled to Jamaica in search of some answers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A world away from the D.C. area, West Kingston. Leslie Malvo juggling two full-time jobs, supervising this construction project and trying to salvage both the family's name and reputation of his 17-year-old son, accused D.C. area sniper, John Lee Malvo.
LESLIE MALVO, JOHN LEE MALVO'S FATHER: The image is ruined. The Malvo name is ruined. Everything is ruined just for one person.
WHITFIELD: That person is 41-year-old John Muhammad. A virtual stranger to Leslie Malvo and his eldest son, Rohain (ph).
(on camera): What do you know about John Muhammad?
MALVO: I don't know him. First, I see him on TV, first. I don't know him.
WHITFIELD: When's the last time you saw your son?
MALVO: Four year ago.
WHITFIELD (voice-over): Leslie Malvo says his estranged girlfriend and son, Lee, ran off with Muhammad back in 1998. Leslie believes Muhammad turned Lee into a boy no one here recognizes.
MALVO: Stepfather force him to do things, you know.
WHITFIELD (on camera): You think the stepfather...
MALVO: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
WHITFIELD (voice-over): For three weeks, Leslie and Rohain have been reading about the sniper investigation. Their life turned upside down when they saw Lee's face in the newspaper, shocked to see the boy's name changed from Lee Boyd Malvo to John Lee Malvo.
(on camera): Did he ever learn to fire weapons here in Jamaica?
MALVO: No, no, no, no.
WHITFIELD: You've never seen him fire a weapon?
MALVO: No, no. WHITFIELD: You've never known him to have his hands on a weapon?
MALVO: No, no, no.
WHITFIELD: He's never had a criminal record?
MALVO: No, no.
WHITFIELD: He's always had good grades?
MALVO: Yes, man, yes.
WHITFIELD: What kind of person would you describe your brother as being?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My brother, he's a heartwarming person. He's jovial and would try to be as nice as possible.
WHITFIELD (voice-over): Growing up, they say, Lee was just like other youngsters -- the streets their playground for football, riding bikes.
(on camera): This is where Lee Malvo last lived in Kingston as a young teenager, Oakland Road, a jumble of low-income houses, apartments, even a Methodist church just about a half block away.
(voice-over): Few here say they remember Lee, many first learned of him after his arrest. Still, in this working class neighborhood, most feel the family's pain.
DOUGLAS LEWIS, NEIGHBOR: Most of us are broken hearted in that sense, so...
WHITFIELD (on camera): Most of you are broken hearted?
LEWIS: Yes.
WHITFIELD (voice-over): A Jamaican community saddened, a family disconnected years ago, now torn even further apart. Worried their 17-year-old boy may be sentenced to life in prison or death for his alleged role in an inexplicable deadly shooting spree far from home.
Fredricka Whitfield, CNN, Kingston, Jamaica.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: The sniper suspects are also being linked to a February killing in Tacoma, Washington and they're suspecting of firing shots at a synagogue there as well. Richard Thompson of CNN affiliate, KIRO, has more on the synagogue attack.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD THOMPSON, KIRO CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, Tacoma detectives tell us that one night last May, somebody drove by this temple, Temple Beth El, here in Tacoma and fired two shots from a .44 Magnum handgun. One of those shots ended up lodging in the exterior wall of this synagogue, another went through several walls and ended up hitting the arch that holds the sacred torah scrolls. We're told at this point that those scrolls were not damaged. But what investigators do tell us is that they have learned that both John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo both had access to that .44 Magnum that was used to fire the shots at this temple.
Now, today officials here at the synagogue held a press conference and they talked to us about the shooting and they said at this point they do not know what the motive might be, whether it could possibly be a hate crime. But they say at this point, their thoughts are focused with all those people who lost loved ones back on the East Coast.
RABBI MARK GLICKMAN, TEMPLE BETH EL: The damage that we suffered here pails in significance to the suffering that the snipers brought to the people they murdered and to the victim's loved ones. We send our heartfelt condolences to the victim's families and we pray that they find solace, comfort and healing in the days ahead.
THOMPSON: And Tacoma detectives will certainly have their work cut out for them in the days to come. We're told that they're going to be back out here recanvasing this neighborhood, trying to see if they can find anyone who can put John Lee Malvo and John Allen Muhammad in this area, perhaps find someone that might have seen a car that could be the pair here on the night of the shooting.
From KIRO TV, I'm Richard Thompson in Tacoma, Washington reporting for CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Richard, thank you very much.
When we come back, we'll speak to Roy Black and Alan Dershowitz and ask them if they were the attorneys representing these two suspects, what would be their strategy. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. The lawyers who wind up defending sniper suspects, John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo, will face an incredibly difficult task. Here to talk about what lies in store for the defense team, the criminal defense attorney, Roy Black. He's joining us once again from Coconut Grove in Florida. And from Watertown, Massachusetts, the Harvard law professor, Alan Dershowitz. He's also author of the new book, "Why Terrorism Works."
Alan, let me begin with you. If -- I know that the strategies might be different for the 17-year-old and the 41-year-old, but in general, if they called on you to defend them, what's the first thing you would do?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR: The first thing I would do is call Roy Black and have him defend them because he's the best trial lawyer around. But what I would do of course is first conduct a full investigation and learn every fact I could. If the facts prove to be true, what we've seen in the media, I would probably urge my client to try to strike a plea bargain. If not, I would focus on the legal issues.
For example, if there's a federal prosecution, there are significant legal claims. Justice Scalia, for example, has indicated quite clearly that he doesn't like federal prosecution for what are essentially state crimes. This idea today that they were indicted for extortion -- and that wasn't the key to what they were doing. They were killing people. The extortion was the tail that wagged the dog.
You would focus of course on the death penalty issues relating to the 17-year-old, whether the 17-year-old was under the control of the older man. And in the end, you would put up the best fight you possibly could because you didn't want to be denying the defendants the effective assistance of counsel. That wouldn't help them. It wouldn't help the system. It wouldn't help anybody and probably you'd lose because the facts seem quite overwhelming.
BLITZER: There seems, Roy Black, a mountain of evidence that the government right now has. What do you do in a situation like this if you're called on to defend these two suspects?
ROY BLACK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Wolf, the first thing I would think of is to try to throw up some procedural roadblocks from this idea of where they're going to parcel out these cases. The impression I get is everybody is now pushing to move them to Virginia where they have the easy road to the electric chair or lethal injection, whatever they do in Virginia. But right now they're being held in federal custody in Baltimore.
I don't think the federal government can just transfer them to Virginia. They would first have to send them to the state courts in Maryland and do an extradition procedure to Virginia. I would try to prevent that any way possible, particularly for Malvo, who can't get the death penalty either on the federal side or in Maryland. So that would be the first thing I would want to do.
BLITZER: Alan Dershowitz, Frank from New York has an e-mail. I think it's a fair one. Let me throw it to you. "Can the snipers receive a fair trial? No. The news media won't allow it because whenever there is a sensational case the news media are biased against defendants in general."
Obviously, the question of a fair trail is a fair question.
DERSHOWITZ: It's a very fair question and the media of course -- everybody in the country is biased against people who seem to have done something so horrible. But yes, they can get a fair trial. Americans have shown the world over and over again that we're one of the few countries that can really accord defendants a fair trial. But the first thing the American people have to do is stop attacking defense attorneys and stop trying to demonize those who without whom a fair trial is impossible.
If Roy Black was able to succeed, as he brilliantly outlined, in keeping the case in Maryland and that would mean maybe that the young man couldn't get the death penalty, people would start attacking Roy Black. And that would be a terrible mistake. So to keep the system fair, the integrity and independence of the defense bar has to be preserved.
BLITZER: Roy Black, as far as a fair trial, the federal government would have an easier time moving this trial to another location than obviously Maryland or Virginia.
BLACK: Oh, without question. And you know I've thought about this, Wolf, the problem here is, you know, the mere publicity is not enough to cause a change of venue. But the issue of fear, the fact that the entire population was in fear, changed their lives, were worried about their kids, worried about going to work, that puts a whole new dimension to this and I would think that the case ought to be moved out of those two or three states to some place where perhaps people were not so directly affected by this.
BLITZER: And...
DERSHOWITZ: But Roy, that suggests that maybe...
BLITZER: In the Oklahoma City bombing case they moved it obviously away from Oklahoma precisely for that very reason, Alan Dershowitz.
DERSHOWITZ: But -- yes, that's right. But Roy's idea, which is a good one, suggests that there has to then be federal prosecution. You cannot try a Virginia case in North Carolina or a Maryland case in New York. Only a federal case can be moved. That's why they were able to move the Oklahoma City case.
So that is an argument that's being made implicitly for a federal prosecution. But then if you're defending these young men, you have to make that choice because federal crimes carry harsher penalties often. But the conditions of confinement in federal prisons are somewhat better than in state prisons. These are the kinds of very difficult trade offs that have to be made. But only one factor can be kept in mind by the defense attorney, the best interest of his client. He cannot think about the best interest of the public, what's good for people, how they'll be reacting. It only is the client's interest that he had to keep in mind and that's why defense attorneys are often so unpopular.
BLITZER: Very briefly, Roy Black, what should the attorney general, John Ashcroft, do? Where should this trial begin?
BLACK: Well, I'll tell you, Ashcroft has a difficult decision to make. I tend to think after reflection on this that a federal prosecution might be the fairest type of prosecution. First of all, I think they will have the easiest time in prosecuting the case because almost all the agents doing the real work and putting the case together are going to be federal agents.
So I would tend to think the way to get a fair trial is to do it federally, move it to a state outside Virginia and Maryland. And as Alan said, let's let justice do its course here.
BLITZER: And you agree with that, Alan Dershowitz?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, I do except that the issues of federalism strongly suggest that this is not a federal crime at its core. And I'm concerned about the increased federalization of state crimes, but Roy makes a very strong argument for why this, in fact, may be a good case for federalization not on the ground that they're substantive issues involved, but that procedurally, you're better off being able to move this case so as to assure an even fairer trial than could be obtained in any of the states where there are actual victims.
BLITZER: Two of the best legal minds in the United States. If you're in trouble, you want to speak to these two guys. Thanks to both of you.
BLACK: Stay out of trouble.
BLITZER: Alan Dershowitz and Roy Black, we'll stay out of trouble. Thank you very much.
Again, you can weigh in on this story. Our "Web Questions of The Day" is this -- should authorities seek the death penalty for 17-year- old John Lee Malvo? Vote now at cnn.com/wolf. We'll have results coming up right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Now here's how you're weighing in on our web question. Earlier we asked -- should authorities seek the death penalty for 17- year-old John Lee Malvo? Look at this, 76 percent of you say yes, 24 percent say no. Remember this is not a scientific poll.
That's all the time we have today. Join me tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. Eastern as well as noon Eastern for "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ." Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" is up next.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 29, 2002 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: The sniper shootings, as local jurisdictions jockey to do justice, the Feds file their own charges.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: To make sure that the most serious penalties are available to address very serious crimes like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The suspects now accused of a murder in Tacoma, Washington, and what may be a hate crime as well.
Can they get a fair trial, anywhere? I'll ask two of America's best-known defense attorneys, Roy Black and Alan Dershowitz.
Is it a case of a good boy gone bad?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's never had a criminal record?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's always had good grades?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: An exclusive visit in Jamaica with the family of John Lee Malvo.
Showdown: Iraq. Like father like son? A look at Baghdad's first family.
And, back to Afghanistan. Free from a U.S. camp in Cuba, former Taliban suspects talk about their secret detention.
It's Tuesday, October 29, 2002. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Hundreds of Haitians have arrived in Florida after jumping off a boat along the Key Biscayne shore.
CNN's Mark Potter is standing by in Miami with more.
Mark, tell us all about it. MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this all started about an hour and a half ago along the Rickenbacker Causeway -- that's the bridge that connects the Miami area mainland with Key Biscayne. And a Coast Guard vessel that was checking on buoys spotted this 50-foot wooden Haitian coastal freighter with an estimated 250 people aboard.
They started to track the boat. They notified the Miami beach Coast Guard base that they had this situation. As the boat approached the bridge, it ran aground, according to the Coast Guard, and the people started jumping overboard into the water.
That's an inherently dangerous situation. And the Coast Guard rushed to the scene to make sure that no one drowned. Local police agencies raced to the bridge to try to stop the people who got out on the bridge. As you can see here, many of them approached cars that were starting to build up the afternoon rush hour traffic.
This is not only dangerous because of the people in the water. But if you can imagine, Wolf, 200 people on a 50-foot boat. Now, this is something that we've seen in the past here in Miami many times over the past decades, particularly in the early 1980s, when these coastal freighters regularly came to Miami with these people from Haiti, predominantly, smuggled inside.
The boats were banned eventually from the Miami river because of that problem and because of the safety situation. But again, one of these freighters has made it through. It apparently came up past Key Biscayne and made its way into the waterway near the Rickenbacker Causeway.
Authorities on the scene are trying to round up as many people as they can. And we are told by an INS official that they will be taken to a detention facility, where they will then be questioned by INS officials. They will go into INS custody. And the typical procedure is, they will be questioned to see what happened.
And also they will be given an opportunity, if they wish, to apply for political asylum. But the chances are not great that they will be granted asylum, at least that most will be granted asylum, because typically they are seen as economic refugees. And their fate is likely that they will be sent back to Haiti -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Mark, we have some dramatic pictures. I want to show our viewers, once some of these Haitians got on shore, look at this. They're managing to get through the water. They're obviously very desperate people. Give us some context to what we're seeing right now.
POTTER: As I told you before, we have seen this so many times. And the pictures that you're seeing here with children, men, women, sometimes pregnant women, on these boats. There is an udder desperation that would drive someone to get into a crowded situation like this and risk their live.
The Straights of Florida are very dangerous. These boats are relatively seaworthy, as designed, but they're not designed for 200 people. And we have had horrible situations here in the past, where these boats are broken apart, the people are lost at sea, sometimes very close to shore.
I remember a very tragic situation we had in the West Palm Beach area in the early 1980s, when one of these boats broke apart in the surf and a number of people died within clear sight of shore, within the surf right next to shore. And this is a situation, as I said, that we have seen here many times.
The Coast Guard yesterday actually predicted that we would start seeing an increase in traffic from Haiti to south Florida and also from Cuba, because the seas are starting to lay down a little bit. We've had some rough weather with the hurricanes and the storms that came through, the tropical storms.
Now those storms have dissipated. The waters have gotten calmer. And the prediction yesterday was that we would see some more of this activity and here it is. Although I don't think anybody thought we would see this old style of people coming to this country that way.
Typically they now come in smaller boats or they're in larger freighters. This really is a throwback to some 20 years ago, when we saw this quite frequently.
BLITZER: I remember those days well. Mark Potter, stand by. I want to get back to you as this story continues to unfold.
Joining me now to talk about the possible legal implications of what we're seeing is Lida Rodriguez-Taseff. She's joining us by phone. She's the president of the greater Miami ACLU.
You know a great deal about what happens to these Haitians who actually got on shore. What's your assessment of what will happen to them?
LIDA RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF, PRES., ACLU MIAMI: Our assessment is based on what's been happening to them over the last several months. I predict that they will be interviewed and many of them will pass their credible fear interview, meaning that they have a credible fear of persecution and they should have an opportunity to apply for asylum. Even if they do, they will be detained and there will be summary proceedings and they'll be deported.
You know, we need to look at the cause of why these people are coming to shore like this and running away. There is a policy, with regard to Cubans, that is called the wet foot/dry foot policy -- meaning, if you make it to shore, you are here, you are safe, and you'll be granted asylum, no questions asked. The same is not true for Haitians, and the desperation is showing.
BLITZER: It's clearly an economic issue as opposed to a political issue. These are desperately poor people, right?
RODRIGUEZ-TASEFF: No, I don't think it's an economic issue. That's why 90 percent of the people who came here in December of 2001 passed their credible fear interview test, meaning they showed a fear of political persecution, they showed that they had a right to political asylum.
And despite of that, we were talking about 188 passengers that came in December. About 13 of them were children. They have been sent back. They were detained, even though every other nationality of person who comes here proves they have a credible fear, they get to stay in the United States. Not true with Haitians, and you're seeing the results of a very misguided policy.
BLITZER: All right, Lida, thanks for joining us. I'm glad we got your assessment. I want to get another point of view right now, Detective Delrish Moss. He's on the causeway. He's joining us on the phone.
Detective, give us the latest. What's happening, from your vantage point?
DELRISH MOSS, MIAMI POLICE: Basically, what we're doing is, we're setting up a triage area to make sure that everyone that's here has the medical attention they need. Because obviously they've been on the water for a couple days and some of them are dehydrated, and so forth.
We've got several dozen people down here. And basically we called in all of our Creole-speaking officers so we can have translators. It's actually, we're going to take a back seat to the federal authorities, now that we've gotten things as under control as possible.
BLITZER: Any signs that some people didn't make it, that they may have drowned offshore?
MOSS: So far we've got nothing to that -- we've got nothing in that direction from the interviews thus far. And everyone looks to be in fairly decent shape so far.
I think our big concern right now is we've gotten some reports that some people may have left the causeway by way of car or pickup truck or whatever, from people that were passing by, who saw their flight and felt sorry for them.
Other than that, we think that we've gotten most of them contained here. And we're giving them some food, we're giving them some water, and trying to see their medical needs and basic creature comforts before we turn them over.
BLITZER: And so what happens to them after you turn them over, as far as you know, Detective?
MOSS: Well, as far as I know, they go to the federal parties and I guess things will be set up to take them to a holding facility. And the necessary interviews will take place and so forth. But at this point, that's really not the city's primary concern. Our concern is...
(AUDIO GAP) BLITZER: I think we may have lost Detective Delrish Moss. He's on the scene for us. Just to recap, a boat carrying about 200 Haitian refugees managed to get close to the Key Biscayne shore. They managed to get close enough for a bunch of them, probably as many as 100, maybe more, to jump overboard and to try to swim to shore.
Many of them, of course, did manage to do that. Some of them have since managed to get away. But a lot of others, as we just heard, are just being picked up by local law enforcement. They'll be handed over to federal authorities, questioned. Some will be allowed to stay, presumably, but many others will be forced to go back to Haiti.
Roy Black, a prominent criminal defense attorney in Miami is joining us now.
Roy, what's your understanding of what happens to these Haitians who managed to get onshore, to get in the United States?
ROY BLACK, ATTORNEY: Well, Wolf, as Lida explained to you, they're going to be taken and interrogated about the basis for them coming here. They'll be held in detention, and I predict almost all of them will be sent back to Haiti.
BLITZER: Unlike Cubans, there's a special provision for Cubans who manage to touch U.S. soil. Isn't that right?
BLACK: Yes, it's a very touchy issue here because the Cubans have a long history, since the beginning of Castro, of political repression. So the United States is very eager to say that anyone coming from Cuba has been suffering because of (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Of course, it's true.
It's much more difficult with Haiti because Haiti is a friendly country to us. So the United States doesn't want to admit there's political repression there.
BLITZER: This law that currently exists only applies to Cuban refugees and no one else, is that right?
BLACK: Yes, because that's directed directly at the Castro government, which clearly is a repressive. communist government which mistreats people. And people fleeing there in small boats and rafts are routinely granted political asylum because of that.
BLITZER: We know that the Cuban-American community in south Florida has a lot of political clout. But there is increasing numbers of Haitian Americans as well. Are they politically organized to any extent at all, that they might have some impact on what these Haitian refugees are going to be allowed to do?
BLACK: They're certainly working on that. But they have nowhere near the political clout that Cuban-Americans have. Cuban-Americans have a tremendous political clout in south Florida, and that stretches from here up to Washington. You notice that presidential candidates come down here and court that vote all the time. While Haitian-Americans are getting a larger voice, excuse me, they're not anywhere near that. And they haven't come anywhere near succeeding in getting the same kind of rights.
BLITZER: You live there in Miami. How much of a surprise should this dramatic development of today have really been to residents down there and to law enforcement?
BLACK: As you mentioned before, we've seen this quite often in the last 20 years or so. I just hope that nobody dies as a result of this. We're used to seeing sometimes these boats breaking up. And these boats are really pretty horrible. And a lot of people have died making this crossing.
And it just shows how desperate these people are. And when you look at this film, how can you not have sympathy for these poor people?
BLITZER: All right, stand by, Roy, because I want to bring back Mark Potter, our Miami correspondent.
Mark, you've been down there a long time. Was this a huge surprise, what unfolded late this afternoon?
POTTER: I think it was. We haven't seen this very often. And, again, these coastal freighters, the wooden freighters are something that we haven't seen in a long time. We used to see them all the time.
I think it probably was a surprise, to law enforcement as well as to everyone else, this sort of scene, which Roy said and we talked about earlier, was something that was seen regularly a long time ago. It has not been repeated for some time.
I want to answer one of the other questions that you asked of Delrish Moss, and that was about any fatalities. Of course, we don't know for sure, but just a few moments ago I did speak to an official at the U.S. Coast Guard who said that, as of right now, the Coast guard officials do not believe that anybody has been lost in the water.
That's not a definitive statement, but as it stands right now, they don't think that anyone has drowned. At least they have no record of it. And again, one of the good things associated with this boat in terms of the safety issue, is that it grounded right near the bridge area.
It ran ashore so the people were able to get to shallow water quite quickly. Although we did see that there were some people swimming there. And that's always a very, very dangerous situation.
One other thing I'll tell you about these boats, Wolf, is that in the past they were used as smuggling vessels. And the people were actually secreted inside of these boats. I've ridden on these things in the past, Wolf, and I can tell you it must be a horrible passage to spend any time in these things.
They actually had secret compartments behind the pilot house on these boats, and also down below on the bilge area. They would cram, as you have seen here, hundreds of people, 200 in this case, on a small boat. And they would cross through with everybody hidden inside so they wouldn't be detected by the authorities. All they would see was a boat. And it was hard to know, without boarding and checking, that there could be potentially 200 people on board.
These boats are strong and they're reliable when used as they're supposed to be used. But again, when you get this many people on board, this is a very dangerous situation. And I'm sure the authorities are hoping they don't see a repeat of this.
BLITZER: All right, stand by, Mark.
We have an eyewitness who just spoke to our affiliates. I want you to listen to what this eyewitness saw as this story was unfolding.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER MILLER, WITNESS: People started running up over the bridge. Some started jumping on cars, hijacking cars...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And now we're looking at the tape of these people, really running in the water. Some of them just taking off, looking for any kind of getaway they could find.
MILLER: Anything that they could do, they were just -- I mean, they were jumping on rocks. They were just hurting themselves, bleeding. It was just a horrible, horrible experience for them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You and I talked also about the emotional aspect of this. You are Cuban. We have gotten interviews with some of these refugees, saying they simply couldn't stand another day in Haiti, that they were living in horrible conditions and wanted to get away.
It's heartbreaking to see children and families risking their lives to come to America.
MILLER: Absolutely, especially not being guaranteed any type of asylum, which I'm sure that they know that they won't. And most of these people, unfortunately, will be sent back to Haiti. So it's just -- I mean, just any attempt to live a better life is what they're aiming at.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Jennifer Miller, thank you so much for standing by. We appreciate your insight here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And so there it is, a dramatic story unfolding in south Florida. Dozens of Haitians swimming ashore, desperate to get to the United States, hoping to be able to stay here without being forced to go back. Although, as we've heard from our legal experts, many if not all of them eventually, if they're rounded up by federal law enforcement, will in fact be forced to go back to Haiti. We're going to continue to monitor this story and bring you all the late-breaking developments.
But right now, let's turn to some other news that we're covering right now, including the Washington-area sniper case. For the first time, the attorney defending suspect John Muhammad spoke out this afternoon about his client. It happened just after the federal government filed its own charges against Muhammad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIM WYDA, PUBLIC DEFENSE ATTY.: At this point we still have not heard any evidence in a court of law against Mr. Muhammad. We know a few things at this point.
Mr. Muhammad is a 41-year-old father. He was an American who served in the Persian Gulf. He was honorably discharged from the United States military. He's never been convicted of another crime at any time, anywhere.
Now, today he stands accused of an incomprehensible crime, one that has had a profound impact on our community and has destroyed the lives of good people and innocent families. What I'm asking you to do at this point is to wait for the process to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: The lawyer representing John Muhammad. We'll hear much more from him, of course, as this story also continues to unfold.
Let's get some more now on the first federal charges filed against John Muhammad, charges that could carry the death sentence. For that, we turn to our justice correspondent, Kelli Arena -- Kelli.
KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the federal government's complaint is the latest in a string of charges against the suspects.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(voice-over): At least one of the federal charges against John Allan Muhammad carries a death penalty sentence. And, according to Attorney General John Ashcroft, ensuring that penalty is the overriding concern.
ASHCROFT: There are people who are saying that they don't think the ultimate penalties ought to be available, whether they're editorialists or others, who don't believe in the death penalty. I believe that the ultimate sanction ought to be available here.
ARENA: Charges in the federal complaints include the use of a firearm during a crime of violence, conspiracy to commit offenses against the United States, conspiracy to affect interstate commerce by extortion and discharging a firearm into a school zone.
ASHCROFT: It alleges the most severe and atrocious of crimes. It provides a basis for additional investigation.
ARENA: The complaint does not name the younger suspect, 17-year- old John Malvo, because he is a juvenile. But it is expected that he too will be charged with federal capital offenses, though he cannot federally face the death penalty.
The federal complaint follows the filing of charges by four counties in Maryland and Virginia. But which jurisdiction gets to go to court first remains an open question.
KIRBY PORTER, VA. COMMONWEALTH'S ATTY.: Virginia should go first. There's no argument or discord.
ARENA: Justice sources agree, citing stronger death penalty laws than exist in Maryland. They suggest Prince William and Fairfax Counties in Virginia are leading contenders.
PAUL BUTLER, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Virginia jurors are much more likely to sentence someone to death that Maryland. And executions are much more likely to be carried out in Virginia, including executions of minors.
ARENA: The affidavit in the complaint lays out specifics in the case, including the demand for $10 million and various options laid out by the alleged snipers for payment.
Officials allege that the two were living out of the blue Chevy Caprice that they were ultimately found in. Part of what was recovered in or near that car: a GPS system along with a laptop computer and a pair of two-way radios.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
The affidavit also alleges that Muhammad referred to his associate, Malvo, as sniper. That's at least according to one acquaintance. Now, that seems to support allegations by some investigators that the juvenile was the shooter in at least one of the attacks -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Kelli Arena with all the latest, Thanks, Kelli, very much.
Joining us now to talk more about who should prosecute the sniper case, the former attorney general of the United States, Dick Thornburgh. Mr. Attorney General, thanks so much for joining us. Who should get first crack at prosecuting these two guys?
DICK THORNBURGH, FMR. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We'll, you've got seven different jurisdictions where homicides occurred. And, theoretically, they could all proceed with prosecutions. I think there are hurdles in every one of those jurisdictions as to an effective prosecution, given the fact that there seems to be a consensus that the death penalty, if we're going to have one, is appropriate in a case like this.
The fact that the federal government filed charges today doesn't necessarily mean they're commandeering the case. It could well be a backup or a reserve against other cases coming up. But I think it's going to take a while to sort out the evidence, the particular laws involved, and then make an informed decision on where this should go.
BLITZER: So the final decision will be that of the attorney general, John Ashcroft.
THORNBURGH: It will be, because the federal government has the defendants in custody now. So, as a practical matter, they will direct them to the court where the trial is going to proceed.
BLITZER: If the federal government, the U.S. attorney, wants to go first, they couldn't file the death sentence, ask for the death sentence against the 17-year-old under federal law.
THORNBURGH: That's right. That's one of the hurdles that exists, with regard to a federal prosecution. That same hurdle exists in Maryland, Virginia. Malvo, the younger defendant, would be subject to the death penalty. The age there is 15.
But there are other problems in Virginia as well. It's by no means clear that the statute there covers anyone except the trigger man, so-called, with the exception of recently-passed statute that might well cover them.
BLITZER: Is there any sense, though, that given the fact that the Attorney General John Ashcroft has made no secret of his support for the death penalty, that he would be more inclined to let Virginia go forward rather than Maryland, where there's a much more difficult hurdle to overcome as far as actually imposing a death sentence?
THORNBURGH: I think if he's satisfied that under Virginia law this case can go forward and be prosecuted. But that requires a very careful review of Virginia law, and a very careful review of the evidence that's available.
But there's no hurry, because however swiftly these charges may be filed, there's going to be an awful lot of pretrial skirmishing before these cases actually come to trial. There will be requests for change of venue, I'm sure.
There's likely to be some kind of insanity or mental impairment test to be imposed. And we'll wait a long time, I think, before we see the gavel come down opening this trial.
BLITZER: As you know, in a lot of other high-profile criminal cases in recent years, there have been plea agreements that have been accepted. Do you think it's at all reasonable in this kind of case, with the emotions, the passion and the terror that was caused, that the government would try to flip, let's say the younger Malvo to testify against Muhammad, and in exchange, get a reduced sentence, if you will?
THORNBURGH: That's a possible scenario, but it depends on something that you and I don't know, and that is the quality and kind of the evidence that the authorities have against each of these folks. I think the notion of a plea in this kind of case would go down pretty hard with the public.
BLITZER: Given the fact that so many people were killed and it did cause so much distress, so much pain and anger. Thanks very much, Dick Thornburgh.
THORNBURGH: Thank you, Wolf.
BLITZER: I'm sure you're happy you're not in John Ashcroft's shoes right now.
THORNBURGH: I should say.
BLITZER: Thank you very much.
Here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of the day is this: should authorities seek the death penalty for 17- year-old John Lee Malvo? We'll have the results later in this program. Go to my Web page, cnn.com/wolf. That's where you can vote.
Also. while you're there, I'd like to hear from you. Send me your comments and your questions. I'll try to get some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily on-line column.
Let's turn now to "Showdown: Iraq." Is time running out for the United Nations to reach a decision on disarming Iraq? Should U.N. weapons inspectors be accompanied, for example, by the news media?
Let's go live to CNN's Richard Roth. He's at the United Nations. Rym Brahimi in Baghdad. But let's begin with CNN senior White House correspondent John King.
John, first of all, has the Bush administration, as far as you can tell, set a deadline?
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Publicly, Wolf, no. Secretary of State Powell, the White House, saying today negotiations continuing. Some sense of optimism that progress is being made. But we are told by officials they have not ruled out using the U.S. veto.
Secretary Powell saying today there might come a time when everyone should put their proposals forward and have votes. U.S. officials say if France, for example, puts forward a resolution under such a scenario that the United States did not like, it might veto that resolution.
No hard deadline yet. The negotiations continue. Look at Tuesday, November 12, and circle that date on the calendar. It is on that date that we would be able to say that the president has not met the test he laid out at the United Nations when he said the U.N. should deal with this in days and weeks, not months and years. On November 12 it will be two months since the president's speech -- Wolf. BLITZER: John King at the White House, thanks very much.
How is the tough talk from the White House playing at the Security Council? For that, let's go live to our senior U.N. correspondent, Richard Roth.
Richard, are they feeling the pressure there?
RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: They're feeling it, but many of the council members say, we only got the resolution a week and a half ago. It was among the big powers for more time than that. Secretary-General Kofi Annan told me today that these things will take time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY GENERAL: I think the Security Council is going about this deliberately and very carefully. It is a serious matter. And I think we shouldn't forget that the council as a whole got the resolution only last Monday. So it's about a week. And I think for them to take their time and discuss this issue seriously is something that we should be grateful for.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROTH: Kofi Annan had more phone calls with Secretary of State Powell who, in Washington today, said that the resolution may not be voted on this week. The French and the Americans are talking about this heavily, and we've just been told that today's scheduled consultations, supposed to start just now, have been postponed to begin Wednesday morning at 10:00 a.m. -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Richard Roth, thanks very much for that report.
If U.S. weapons inspectors do go back into Iraq, should the news media make the rounds with them? For that, let's go live to CNN's Rym Brahimi in Baghdad -- Rym.
RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, here's the situation as seen from Baghdad. The Iraqi officials here say that the U.S. draft resolution goes against their sovereignty. They say it's an attempt to deliberately create clashes between the U.N. inspectors and Iraq by just complicating the rules of engagement of the inspectors.
So here's what they're trying to do. Iraqi officials, like the Iraqi vice president, has advocated that the international media just accompany the inspectors when they come back and on all their visits to different sites.
They also want independent observers to be there along with him, the argument being that they have no faith at all in U.N. inspectors, that after their previous experiences, the inspectors could very well be here to spy. And so they're calling for transparency.
On the face of it, there's also the issue that, realistically, Wolf, it seems there's very little that Iraq could do if such a tough resolution were adopted at the U.N. Security Council. And so this response calling for more transparency is pretty much all the Iraqi government seems to be able to do at this stage -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Rym Brahimi in Baghdad, thanks very much.
Maintaining the regime in Baghdad is a family affair. CNN's Christiane Amanpour takes us inside Iraq for a look at the powerful sons of President Saddam Hussein.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Abbas el- Janabi worked for Uday for 15 years before defecting to the UK in 1998. As press secretary and private secretary, Janabi had unusual access.
ABBAS EL JANABI, UDAY'S FORMER SECRETARY: He is so aggressive. And everybody knows that one day he killed his father's servant. And everybody knows one day that he shoot his uncle, his own uncle.
AMANPOUR: Uday's sexual exploits are legendary too. He is said to have taken women from their husbands or fiances and families and violently abused them.
LATIF YAHIA, AUTHOR: Uday, everything is public. Everyone know what he's doing, how he live, how he doing, how (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and how he pick the girls. And just his live is girls and you know, sex and drink. And this is his other life.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Latif Yahia claims to have worked as Uday's official body double from 1987 to 1991. Iraqi officials and other dissidents deny his story, but this is not in dispute. In 1990, Yahia used the resemblance to travel to Kuwait and steal expensive cars. He said, on Uday's orders. Baghdad said he was an imposture and made him confess on television. But Janabi who was on Uday's official payroll testifies to Uday's taste for dollars and corruption.
ABBAS EL JANABI, UDAY'S FORMER SECRETARY: Wherever you go, in any ministry, he has some people there, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), you know, whatever he want.
AMANPOUR: Janabi believes the son could demobilize up to 6,000 men to defend his father should the regime come under attack again.
Christiane Amanpour, CNN London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Uday Hussein is not considered to be Saddam Hussein's favorite son or the more likely heir of parent. To learn more about Saddam Hussein's favorite son, Qusay, watch "CONNIE CHUNG TONIGHT," 8:00 Eastern.
They were among the first released from the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. And now, three Afghan prisoners are back in Kabul, expected to return to their families shortly. They've been talking about their capture and their time at the island facility.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUHAMMED SIDDIO, FORMER DETAINEE (through translator): Under the Taliban, when they were bombing, I was sick for 10 days. I didn't know what was happening. They just tied my hands and took me on the plane and I was gone.
JAN MOHAMMAD, FORMER DETAINEE (through translator): If I was a Taliban, why would they release me from there? But there are still Taliban in Guantanamo Bay.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: All three say they were held for a long period, caved, sometimes shackled and interrogated but not abused. Hundreds of detainees remain at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay.
A breaking story off South Florida, a rush to freedom. Coming up also, from polite student to sniper shooting suspect. How did John Lee Malvo become a central character in a grizzly crime spree? An exclusive visit to his hometown in Jamaica. All that coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Wolf Blitzer. Coming up, legal strategy for the sniper suspects, how would top lawyers handle this case. We'll talk with Allen Dershowitz and Roy Black in just a few minutes.
Hundred of Haitians have arrived in Florida after jumping off a boat along the Key Biscayne Shore. For an update, let's bring back CNN's Mark Potter. He's standing by in Miami with this continuing story -- Mark.
MARK POTTER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf, a couple of developments since we last talked. The boat itself, the 50-foot wooden coastal freighter, the Haitian freighter, is being towed now by the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard has 12 vessels on the scene and is very concerned about making sure that no one has been left behind in the water. Right now the Coast Guard says it has no reports of any serious injuries or any fatalities, but, again, that investigation continues.
On another front, the people who made it to shore, the estimated 200 people or so are being rounded up. Many of them have been rounded up and have been put onto jail buses. They will be taken to a detention facility where they will be questioned by INS officials and other federal authorities who want to answer two questions. One, was this a smuggling scheme? Where did these people come from? Did they come directly from Haiti or was this a transshipment through the Bahamas? And the question will be raised about whether any of them have a credible fear of persecution in Haiti? Will any of them raise asylum claims? They will be given a chance to do that as part the questioning, but typically in these cases involving people from Haiti, most are sent back. And the predictions early from the legal experts here is that is what will happen in this case too --Wolf.
BLITZER: Mark Potter, he's on the scene for us, covering this story, which he knows so well. No reporter knows it better than Mark Potter. Thanks very much, Mark.
Let's bring in Cheryl Little. She's with the Florida Advocacy Immigration Center. She's on her way.
I assume, Cheryl, you're heading there to try to help these Haitian refugees. Is that what you're doing?
CHERYL LITTLE, FLORIDA ADVOCACY IMMIGRATION CENTER: Well, that's what I'm trying to do but the traffic has pretty much come to a full stop.
BLITZER: What do you -- what is your immediate goal right now, Cheryl?
LITTLE: Well, we want to make sure that the Haitians are being treated fairly and humanely and that if they've made it to dry land, that they're given an opportunity to apply for political asylum.
BLITZER: What makes you think that the U.S. government, federal or local authorities, might not be treating them fairly or humanely?
LITTLE: Well, in early December, a boatload of 157 Haitians were brought to shore by the U.S. Coast Guard and since that time, INS officials have not released Haitians who convince asylum officers that they have a credible fear of persecution upon return to Haiti, unlike other groups. In the Miami district, if you're from any other country other than Haiti and you've passed your credible fear interview, you're quickly released so you can then try to find an attorney and prepare your asylum case. The Haitian cases, because the Haitians are not being released, their cases are expedited and they've had just weeks to try to find lawyers and prepare their cases.
BLITZER: Most of these Haitians who managed to get ashore are quickly sent back to Haiti, is that right?
LITTLE: Well, the Haitians who arrived in early December, most of them have now been ordered removed from the United States and it's about 10 months later.
BLITZER: I think we lost Cheryl Little.
LITTLE: Yes, I can hear you now, Wolf.
BLITZER: All right, Cheryl. You were just going to finish up your thought, go ahead.
LITTLE: Yes, I -- can you hear me?
BLITZER: I hear you.
LITTLE: Yes. No, we're very concerned that if these Haitians convince asylum officers that they have credible asylum claims, they should be released like every other group is in the Miami district, so they have fair opportunity to make their case for political asylum.
BLITZER: Cheryl Little, she's on the way to try to help these Haitians. We'll see how well you can do. Cheryl Little, thanks for joining us on the phone.
Let's turn to a CNN exclusive. John Lee Malvo is perhaps the real mystery of the sniper killings. The key question is this, how did a young boy well regarded by Jamaican friends and teachers end up a sniper suspect with John Muhammad? CNN's Fredricka Whitfield traveled to Jamaica in search of some answers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A world away from the D.C. area, West Kingston. Leslie Malvo juggling two full-time jobs, supervising this construction project and trying to salvage both the family's name and reputation of his 17-year-old son, accused D.C. area sniper, John Lee Malvo.
LESLIE MALVO, JOHN LEE MALVO'S FATHER: The image is ruined. The Malvo name is ruined. Everything is ruined just for one person.
WHITFIELD: That person is 41-year-old John Muhammad. A virtual stranger to Leslie Malvo and his eldest son, Rohain (ph).
(on camera): What do you know about John Muhammad?
MALVO: I don't know him. First, I see him on TV, first. I don't know him.
WHITFIELD: When's the last time you saw your son?
MALVO: Four year ago.
WHITFIELD (voice-over): Leslie Malvo says his estranged girlfriend and son, Lee, ran off with Muhammad back in 1998. Leslie believes Muhammad turned Lee into a boy no one here recognizes.
MALVO: Stepfather force him to do things, you know.
WHITFIELD (on camera): You think the stepfather...
MALVO: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
WHITFIELD (voice-over): For three weeks, Leslie and Rohain have been reading about the sniper investigation. Their life turned upside down when they saw Lee's face in the newspaper, shocked to see the boy's name changed from Lee Boyd Malvo to John Lee Malvo.
(on camera): Did he ever learn to fire weapons here in Jamaica?
MALVO: No, no, no, no.
WHITFIELD: You've never seen him fire a weapon?
MALVO: No, no. WHITFIELD: You've never known him to have his hands on a weapon?
MALVO: No, no, no.
WHITFIELD: He's never had a criminal record?
MALVO: No, no.
WHITFIELD: He's always had good grades?
MALVO: Yes, man, yes.
WHITFIELD: What kind of person would you describe your brother as being?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My brother, he's a heartwarming person. He's jovial and would try to be as nice as possible.
WHITFIELD (voice-over): Growing up, they say, Lee was just like other youngsters -- the streets their playground for football, riding bikes.
(on camera): This is where Lee Malvo last lived in Kingston as a young teenager, Oakland Road, a jumble of low-income houses, apartments, even a Methodist church just about a half block away.
(voice-over): Few here say they remember Lee, many first learned of him after his arrest. Still, in this working class neighborhood, most feel the family's pain.
DOUGLAS LEWIS, NEIGHBOR: Most of us are broken hearted in that sense, so...
WHITFIELD (on camera): Most of you are broken hearted?
LEWIS: Yes.
WHITFIELD (voice-over): A Jamaican community saddened, a family disconnected years ago, now torn even further apart. Worried their 17-year-old boy may be sentenced to life in prison or death for his alleged role in an inexplicable deadly shooting spree far from home.
Fredricka Whitfield, CNN, Kingston, Jamaica.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: The sniper suspects are also being linked to a February killing in Tacoma, Washington and they're suspecting of firing shots at a synagogue there as well. Richard Thompson of CNN affiliate, KIRO, has more on the synagogue attack.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RICHARD THOMPSON, KIRO CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, Tacoma detectives tell us that one night last May, somebody drove by this temple, Temple Beth El, here in Tacoma and fired two shots from a .44 Magnum handgun. One of those shots ended up lodging in the exterior wall of this synagogue, another went through several walls and ended up hitting the arch that holds the sacred torah scrolls. We're told at this point that those scrolls were not damaged. But what investigators do tell us is that they have learned that both John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo both had access to that .44 Magnum that was used to fire the shots at this temple.
Now, today officials here at the synagogue held a press conference and they talked to us about the shooting and they said at this point they do not know what the motive might be, whether it could possibly be a hate crime. But they say at this point, their thoughts are focused with all those people who lost loved ones back on the East Coast.
RABBI MARK GLICKMAN, TEMPLE BETH EL: The damage that we suffered here pails in significance to the suffering that the snipers brought to the people they murdered and to the victim's loved ones. We send our heartfelt condolences to the victim's families and we pray that they find solace, comfort and healing in the days ahead.
THOMPSON: And Tacoma detectives will certainly have their work cut out for them in the days to come. We're told that they're going to be back out here recanvasing this neighborhood, trying to see if they can find anyone who can put John Lee Malvo and John Allen Muhammad in this area, perhaps find someone that might have seen a car that could be the pair here on the night of the shooting.
From KIRO TV, I'm Richard Thompson in Tacoma, Washington reporting for CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Richard, thank you very much.
When we come back, we'll speak to Roy Black and Alan Dershowitz and ask them if they were the attorneys representing these two suspects, what would be their strategy. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. The lawyers who wind up defending sniper suspects, John Allen Muhammad and John Lee Malvo, will face an incredibly difficult task. Here to talk about what lies in store for the defense team, the criminal defense attorney, Roy Black. He's joining us once again from Coconut Grove in Florida. And from Watertown, Massachusetts, the Harvard law professor, Alan Dershowitz. He's also author of the new book, "Why Terrorism Works."
Alan, let me begin with you. If -- I know that the strategies might be different for the 17-year-old and the 41-year-old, but in general, if they called on you to defend them, what's the first thing you would do?
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, HARVARD LAW PROFESSOR: The first thing I would do is call Roy Black and have him defend them because he's the best trial lawyer around. But what I would do of course is first conduct a full investigation and learn every fact I could. If the facts prove to be true, what we've seen in the media, I would probably urge my client to try to strike a plea bargain. If not, I would focus on the legal issues.
For example, if there's a federal prosecution, there are significant legal claims. Justice Scalia, for example, has indicated quite clearly that he doesn't like federal prosecution for what are essentially state crimes. This idea today that they were indicted for extortion -- and that wasn't the key to what they were doing. They were killing people. The extortion was the tail that wagged the dog.
You would focus of course on the death penalty issues relating to the 17-year-old, whether the 17-year-old was under the control of the older man. And in the end, you would put up the best fight you possibly could because you didn't want to be denying the defendants the effective assistance of counsel. That wouldn't help them. It wouldn't help the system. It wouldn't help anybody and probably you'd lose because the facts seem quite overwhelming.
BLITZER: There seems, Roy Black, a mountain of evidence that the government right now has. What do you do in a situation like this if you're called on to defend these two suspects?
ROY BLACK, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, Wolf, the first thing I would think of is to try to throw up some procedural roadblocks from this idea of where they're going to parcel out these cases. The impression I get is everybody is now pushing to move them to Virginia where they have the easy road to the electric chair or lethal injection, whatever they do in Virginia. But right now they're being held in federal custody in Baltimore.
I don't think the federal government can just transfer them to Virginia. They would first have to send them to the state courts in Maryland and do an extradition procedure to Virginia. I would try to prevent that any way possible, particularly for Malvo, who can't get the death penalty either on the federal side or in Maryland. So that would be the first thing I would want to do.
BLITZER: Alan Dershowitz, Frank from New York has an e-mail. I think it's a fair one. Let me throw it to you. "Can the snipers receive a fair trial? No. The news media won't allow it because whenever there is a sensational case the news media are biased against defendants in general."
Obviously, the question of a fair trail is a fair question.
DERSHOWITZ: It's a very fair question and the media of course -- everybody in the country is biased against people who seem to have done something so horrible. But yes, they can get a fair trial. Americans have shown the world over and over again that we're one of the few countries that can really accord defendants a fair trial. But the first thing the American people have to do is stop attacking defense attorneys and stop trying to demonize those who without whom a fair trial is impossible.
If Roy Black was able to succeed, as he brilliantly outlined, in keeping the case in Maryland and that would mean maybe that the young man couldn't get the death penalty, people would start attacking Roy Black. And that would be a terrible mistake. So to keep the system fair, the integrity and independence of the defense bar has to be preserved.
BLITZER: Roy Black, as far as a fair trial, the federal government would have an easier time moving this trial to another location than obviously Maryland or Virginia.
BLACK: Oh, without question. And you know I've thought about this, Wolf, the problem here is, you know, the mere publicity is not enough to cause a change of venue. But the issue of fear, the fact that the entire population was in fear, changed their lives, were worried about their kids, worried about going to work, that puts a whole new dimension to this and I would think that the case ought to be moved out of those two or three states to some place where perhaps people were not so directly affected by this.
BLITZER: And...
DERSHOWITZ: But Roy, that suggests that maybe...
BLITZER: In the Oklahoma City bombing case they moved it obviously away from Oklahoma precisely for that very reason, Alan Dershowitz.
DERSHOWITZ: But -- yes, that's right. But Roy's idea, which is a good one, suggests that there has to then be federal prosecution. You cannot try a Virginia case in North Carolina or a Maryland case in New York. Only a federal case can be moved. That's why they were able to move the Oklahoma City case.
So that is an argument that's being made implicitly for a federal prosecution. But then if you're defending these young men, you have to make that choice because federal crimes carry harsher penalties often. But the conditions of confinement in federal prisons are somewhat better than in state prisons. These are the kinds of very difficult trade offs that have to be made. But only one factor can be kept in mind by the defense attorney, the best interest of his client. He cannot think about the best interest of the public, what's good for people, how they'll be reacting. It only is the client's interest that he had to keep in mind and that's why defense attorneys are often so unpopular.
BLITZER: Very briefly, Roy Black, what should the attorney general, John Ashcroft, do? Where should this trial begin?
BLACK: Well, I'll tell you, Ashcroft has a difficult decision to make. I tend to think after reflection on this that a federal prosecution might be the fairest type of prosecution. First of all, I think they will have the easiest time in prosecuting the case because almost all the agents doing the real work and putting the case together are going to be federal agents.
So I would tend to think the way to get a fair trial is to do it federally, move it to a state outside Virginia and Maryland. And as Alan said, let's let justice do its course here.
BLITZER: And you agree with that, Alan Dershowitz?
DERSHOWITZ: Well, I do except that the issues of federalism strongly suggest that this is not a federal crime at its core. And I'm concerned about the increased federalization of state crimes, but Roy makes a very strong argument for why this, in fact, may be a good case for federalization not on the ground that they're substantive issues involved, but that procedurally, you're better off being able to move this case so as to assure an even fairer trial than could be obtained in any of the states where there are actual victims.
BLITZER: Two of the best legal minds in the United States. If you're in trouble, you want to speak to these two guys. Thanks to both of you.
BLACK: Stay out of trouble.
BLITZER: Alan Dershowitz and Roy Black, we'll stay out of trouble. Thank you very much.
Again, you can weigh in on this story. Our "Web Questions of The Day" is this -- should authorities seek the death penalty for 17-year- old John Lee Malvo? Vote now at cnn.com/wolf. We'll have results coming up right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Now here's how you're weighing in on our web question. Earlier we asked -- should authorities seek the death penalty for 17- year-old John Lee Malvo? Look at this, 76 percent of you say yes, 24 percent say no. Remember this is not a scientific poll.
That's all the time we have today. Join me tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. Eastern as well as noon Eastern for "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ." Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" is up next.
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