Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Did Nuclear Crisis Get Worse?; Is Speicher Still Alive?; Police Turn to Sonar in Search for Pregnant Woman

Aired January 10, 2003 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Did the nuclear crisis just get worse?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today's announcement is of serious concern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: North Korea's new broken promise and a bold dare that economic sanctions are...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAK GIL YON, N. KOREAN AMB. TO U.N.: Declaration of war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Can a veteran troubleshooter help keep the lid on?

As the buildup continues for a possible war with Iraq, a fresh hint that a pilot downed in the 1991 Gulf War may still be alive.

Tortured, jailed on death row, and now pardoned.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Innocent people convicted to die for a crime they didn't commit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Is this just the tip of an iceberg in Illinois?

What's at the bottom of the bay? Police turn to sonar in their search for a missing pregnant woman.

And, isn't real life real enough, from the romantic to the repulsive Reality TV goes over the top.

It's Friday, January 10, 2003. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. A stunning turn today in the North Korea standoff as the communist nation essentially rips up a global treaty on nuclear weapons and challenges the world to do something about it.

We have two reports. CNN national correspondent Bob Franken is in New Mexico, where a veteran troubleshooter is on the case.

But we begin with the urgent official diplomacy and our CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel -- Andrea.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, North Korea has been threatening for years to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, and finally early this morning, while most of us were sleeping, it did just that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice-over): Only hours after North Korea blasted the United States anew and threatened war, Secretary of State Powell fired back and condemned North Korea's decision to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We hope that the North Korean leadership will realize the folly of its actions, will realize that the international community and the United States will not be intimidated, and we will continue to work for a peaceful solution.

KOPPEL: But Powell and the head of the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency warned Pyongyang if it doesn't reverse course soon the next stop will be the U.N. Security Council.

POWELL: This kind of disrespect for such an agreement can not go un-dealt with.

MOHAMED ELBARADEI, IAEA: What we are talking about is a matter of weeks.

KOPPEL: Earlier in the day, North Korea's ambassador to the U.N. had a warning of his own.

PAK: Any kind of economic sanctions to be taken by the Security Council of the United Nations against the PPRK is a declaration of war.

KOPPEL: But the Bush White House still refused to call this a crisis.

CHENEY: Today's announcement is of serious concern to North Korea's neighbors and to the entire international community.

KOPPEL: All this while in New Mexico North Korean diplomats held a second day of private talks with Governor Bill Richardson.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: While Richardson is not an official emissary or envoy of the Bush administration Secretary Powell, Wolf, said that he had spoken to Richardson three times since talks began last night and said he expected to speak with him again later this evening when they end.

In the meantime, President Bush spoke with China's President Jiang Zemin in the hopes of resolving the nuclear faceoff -- Wolf. BLITZER: Andrea Koppel at the State Department. Andrea, thanks very much. Let's get a little bit more now on what the Governor of New Mexico Bill Richardson is doing as he tries to recreate that troubleshooter role he used to have.

Our Bob Franken is on the scene for us tonight in Santa Fe -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, Andrea spoke about the official situation. This is the semi-official situation. Here you have a person who is not in the government, decidedly so. New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson is a Democrat, a Clinton Democrat from that administration, but he is somebody well known to the North Koreans.

As you pointed out, he was a troubleshooter. Some of his troubleshooting was in North Korea in the early and mid-'90s. He was also the United Nations ambassador. He has met the North Koreans. They know him. They trust him. They respect him.

These are the kinds of comments that we've been hearing; therefore, they contacted him. Could he, in fact, participate in discussions, not negotiations, to somehow bridge this gap between an administration that has diplomatic difficulties talking to the North Koreas, and the country itself?

They've come here to Sante Fe, the state capital. They met yesterday in the governor's mansion. They met this morning. They've taken a break. They are resuming later, in about an hour as a matter of fact. It's considered quite remarkable that they're continuing these conversations. They may even go tomorrow.

The Nonproliferation Treaty has been on the table. Richardson has been talking to the North Koreans about that. He has also been talking repeatedly with Secretary of State Colin Powell, so he's not going off the reservation.

These continuing talks will go until they're done. The fact that they're going longer is considered, as I said, something of note. For many people, it was something that when the spokesperson for the governor talked to us, he was really quite careful in what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILLY SPARKS, GOVERNOR'S SPOKESMAN: I think that both the governor and the North Koreans are interested in substantive talks. As I said, they are positive in atmosphere but very frank. We decided to continue the talks at four o'clock this afternoon. I don't know how long they'll last into the night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: And, of course, how long they will last will be dependent a lot on what each side has to say. Each side, of course trying to come up with some sort of framework that could then be kicked upstairs in effect to the Bush administration to begin its official context -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Bob Franken on the scene for us in Santa Fe. He'll be there and will be awaiting word when those talks end. Thanks, Bob very much.

More signs today of a gathering storm in the Persian Gulf, three U.S. Navy ships today left their home port in Norfolk, Virginia to pick up 7,000 Marines at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. The marines are to deploy to the Persian Gulf very soon, following more than 1,000 others already sent to the region.

Meantime, Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina is on alert and is expected to deploy some of its F-15 fighters in the coming days. More than 1,200 members of the Florida National Guard have traveled to Fort Stewart in Georgia. They may be used to secure the garrison while the Army's 3rd Infantry Division is deployed in Kuwait or they may be sent to the Persian Gulf themselves. It's the largest mobilization of the Florida Guard since World War II.

Britain's largest naval task force in two decades will put to sea tomorrow, headed toward the Persian Gulf. The carrier Arc Royal loaded with helicopters will be joined later by another carrier. Together they would be able to land up to 3,000 Royal Marines deep in Iraqi territory, among the other vessels frigates, destroyers, and a submarine.

You're getting a second chance to weigh in on this story because of yesterday's technical glitch. Should the United States go to war against Iraq even if weapons inspectors say there's no smoking gun? We'll have the results later in this broadcast. Vote at cnn.com/wolf.

And, while you're there, I'd like to hear from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily online column, cnn.com/wolf.

We want to move on now. There's some breaking news developing in Chicago right now where a five-story apartment building is on fire. You're looking at these live pictures thanks to our affiliate WBBM.

There are people we are told trapped inside the building and for the last few minutes we've seen some of them climbing down ladders to escape. We don't know yet how many people are still inside the building, or exactly where the fire is, although we have seen smoke pouring out of what appears to be the basement as well as from the roof.

You're looking at these pictures now of these individuals climbing down the ladder, the ladders that provided escaping the smoke clearly coming up from the lower part of this high-rise in Chicago, this building, other ladders clearly on the scene as well.

Firefighters attempting to rescue individuals inside this building, an extensive amount of smoke obviously coming forward. Fire crews, we're also told, are on top of the building. You may see some of them in this picture. They've cut several holes in the roof, we're also told, to allow the smoke to get out. As we get closer, we'll see some more people presumably trying to escape this fire.

We'll stay on top of this story and bring you additional information as it becomes available, these pictures courtesy of our affiliate WBBM, live pictures from this fire right now in Chicago.

Two Illinois National Guard pilots may face up to 64 years in prison if convicted of manslaughter and other charges for the friendly fire deaths of four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan last year. Their case goes before an Air Force hearing officer on Monday, but should the Air Force itself shoulder the blame?

Our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Four Canadians were killed, eight others wounded in April when a U.S. F-16 pilot dropped a 500-pound bomb on their live fire training exercise near Kandahar, Afghanistan, believing their mortar practice was hostile fire.

It was a mistake and now an Air Force general will decide if Majors Harry Schmidt and Bill Umbach will be court martialed in what would be the first criminal charges brought against U.S. pilots in combat.

CHARLES GITTINS, SCHMIDT DEFENSE ATTY.: An accident in combat is an accident in combat. You discipline the officer but you don't make it criminal. This is not a criminal event.

MCINTYRE: Military investigators found Schmidt, the former top gun pilot who dropped the bomb failed to exercise proper flight discipline as a flight wingman and, as Flight Leader Umbach failed to take control of the situation.

While the Canadian government has expressed satisfaction the pilots are facing serious charges, on an Internet Web site raising money for their defense, supporters and family members contend Schmidt and Umbach are being made scapegoats because neither pilot was briefed that the Canadians were exercising in the war zone.

JOAN SCHMIDT, PILOT'S MOTHER: Somewhere along the chain of command this information that should have been passed on to the pilots never made it and that's why, I think, they are scapegoats.

MCINTYRE: Investigators did fault the chain of command as well, finding that the mission planning and preparation processes were ineffective and that is the heart of the pilots' defense.

GITTINS: There is no question that this accident would not have happened if the pilots had been notified of a very unusual event that being a friendly live fire exercise in a combat area. MCINTYRE (on camera): There is another issue, the use of the drug Dexedrine, an amphetamine issues to pilots who wanted to keep them alert on long missions. The defense contends the pilots were pressured to take the so-called "go pills," were never warned of the side effects, and that the pills may be one reason the pilots made some bad decisions under pressure.

MCINTYRE (voice-over): It's a charge the Air Force flatly denies.

COL. PETE DEMITRY, U.S. AIR FORCE: The Air Force's program is safe. It's effective. We have the science behind it. It's voluntary. We use minuscule doses and it saves lives.

MCINTYRE: The fate of the pilots now rests in the hands of a three-star general who will review the findings of Monday's preliminary hearing and decide if the pilots should face a criminal trial.

Jamie McIntyre CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: A pregnant woman missing since Christmas Eve, is the key to her disappearance at the bottom of the bay, the latest on the investigation.

Also, home alone for three weeks, did a California mom take off to meet her cyber lover?

And, live from death row, the Illinois governor takes a bold step to end what he calls a shameful scorecard of injustice.

We'll have all that but first today's news quiz.

Which state authorizes the use of a firing squad as a method of execution, Idaho, Utah, Oklahoma, all of the above?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The search for a missing California woman has suddenly focused on a corner of the San Francisco Bay where authorities have detected what may, repeat may, be a body.

CNN's Rusty Dornin has been following the case of Laci Peterson. She's joining us now live with the latest -- Rusty.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Wolf this has been such a frustrating case from the very beginning. There have just been very few leads, almost no clues, and now they have something that could be a lead or it may not be a lead.

Now, divers have been searching the Berkeley Marina. That's in the San Francisco Bay area where Scott Peterson says that he went fishing the day his wife, Laci, disappeared. Now, divers late yesterday afternoon discovered, using side scanning sonar, an objection they say resembles a body. They only say it resembles a body. They could not pull it out yesterday and they could not pull it out today because of very bad weather. There's been a storm in that area, also the currents are very heavy, and they say the divers are also very fatigued.

Now meantime, police have been very tight lipped. They will not talk about Scott Peterson whatsoever, and they also say that there still have been no credible witnesses that have placed Scott Peterson at the Berkeley Marina when he says he was there.

Now, despite this new speculation with this object in the bay, Laci Peterson's family says they still stand firmly behind Scott Peterson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRENT LAROCHA, BROTHER: You know my confidence is so high that Scott had nothing to do with it. I'm not really that concerned. It's not bothering me too much and it seems to me if it really was something significant they'd be out there today to take care of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DORNIN: Now, we're looking right now at a live picture of the Berkeley Marina in the bay area. It's been very quiet there all day. None of the divers, none of the search teams have shown up there. We understand they will be coming very early tomorrow morning to start the search to see exactly what that object is.

Now meantime, here at the Modesto Police Department, it's also very quiet here today and they say there will be no press conferences until something significant happens, until they pull whatever that is up out of the bay and let people know exactly what they found -- Wolf.

BLITZER: It may or may not be something. We'll have to wait at least until tomorrow. Rusty Dornin with us on the latest. Thanks, Rusty, very much.

Shot down over Iraq during the first Gulf War, is Scott Speicher still alive? The search for answers continues. We'll talk to Senator Pat Roberts. He's the new chairman of the Intelligence Committee. He has information on this case.

Plus, starved to death how three innocent kids fell through the cracks again and again.

And, are we becoming a nation of voyeurs? America's obsession with peeping sparks the network ratings, but first, a look at news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Banking on change. Bank workers have joined the general strike in Venezuela aimed at the ouster of President Hugo Chavez. In Washington, the White House says it's looking for ways to restore stability.

Dead end, London police say a gunman who held them at bay for 15 days set fire to his apartment. After the fire was put out, the gunman was found dead. It's said to have been the longest domestic siege in British history.

Alpine accident, a key highway through the Austrian Alps was closed after an Italian truck crashed into a Belgian bus in Germany. Three people were killed and 45 others were injured. Icy conditions may have played a role.

Deep freeze, humanitarian groups say authorities should be doing more to help homeless Russians survive frigid temperatures. Cold kills about 400 people each year in Moscow alone and this winter has been harsh. Moscow temperatures are expected to drop well below zero this weekend.

Spying a spider, a crowd in Bangkok, Thailand watched not one but ten spider-men climb down a 32-story skyscraper. It was a stunt to publicize the opening of a new hotel.

"Tomb Raider II," Hollywood comes to Hong Kong. They're shooting a new "Tomb Raider" movie in the Chinese city, "Laura Croft Returns." One again, Angelina Jolie plays the lead role, and that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The United States recently obtained more intelligence hinting that U.S. Navy Pilot Scott Speicher is alive in Iraq. Sources say they have nothing to indicate the information is accurate. Speicher, of course, was downed in the first hours of the Gulf War 12 years ago exactly next week.

He was initialed listed as killed, then listed more recently as missing. But at the urging of Senator Pat Roberts of Kansas, the Pentagon in October changed Speicher's status once again to missing/captured.

Roberts is the incoming chairman of the Intelligence Committee. He recently wrote to the Iraqi President Saddam Hussein requesting a meeting to clear up Speicher's fate.

Senator Roberts joins me now live from Kansas City, Missouri. Senator thanks so much for joining us.

This is such a shocking story, to especially those of use who remember the case. I covered the first Gulf War. What brought you directly into it and fill our viewers in on the latest information based on what you know.

SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R-KS), INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Well, number one, Wolf, I want to thank you, Wolf, for bringing this to the nation's attention right at the time when we might be facing imminent kinds of military action. We shouldn't forget that we left somebody behind.

And, you're right, it was 12 years ago and Scott was listed as KIA or killed in action. There has never been any evidence that that's the case and the law, the law of the land is that until you can actually prove somebody is deceased, he or she should be simply listed as MIA.

We changed Scott from KIA to MIA, now to missing/captured. I think he's a POW. We have a lot of related sightings of an American POW. You will recall President Clinton said he might be alive. President Bush has mentioned this even in his U.N. speech.

We think there's a window of opportunity here. That's why we've made the plea to Saddam Hussein, be a humanitarian if you can be. I don't think there's any downside risk to our national security in regards to the threat that Iraq faces. But, he could, he could actually finally determine the fate of Scott.

I myself used to say it was possible. He may be alive. I think it is probable. If you connect the dots of all of the information that we're receiving from the Speicher team, from the intelligence, well the arena, all of the intelligence community involved, and then also other reported sightings, I think there's a pretty good chance he is alive.

BLITZER: In your new capacity, Senator, as the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, presumably you will be in a much better position to connect those dots for the family, the loved ones so deeply concerned about the fate of Captain Speicher?

ROBERTS: Well, there's a book by Amy Yarsinske called "No One Left Behind" and we have been in touch with the Speicher family ever since we've become involved, about five or six years ago. I wish we'd have been involved earlier than that but quite frankly very egregious mistakes were made. It was like -- I can't tell you what it's like if you look at one mistake after another. We did actually leave somebody behind.

So, yes, as chairman of the Intelligence Committee we'll continue that work. We've been very active, I say we, Senator Bob Smith the former Senator was very active in this, and Senator Bill Nelson of Florida has joined me, along with Senator John Warner who is the chairman of the Armed Services Committee.

We hope to go to that area very soon. Every time we do we ask about Scott Speicher. Hopefully this will pay off.

BLITZER: As you well know, Senator, the Iraqi government position is he's dead. He didn't survive the crash, and they also say come over U.S. government. Bring a delegation and we'll show you whatever you want to see. The Bush administration has refused to take up the Iraqis on that proposal.

ROBERTS: Well, Wolf, we've been there. You know we had the Red Cross in there in '94. Quite frankly, I don't think until 1994 that Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis really realized that Scott survived the crash and was kept in hiding by a Bedouin tribe, at least that's the theory that is purported by Amy's book "No One Left Behind" and I think it is true.

And so, we have actually been at the site. We've looked at the site, and let's not forget that the Iraqis first told us Scott was eaten by wolves, for goodness sakes. Then they sent some remains over and DNA proved they weren't Scott.

Anybody that puts any faith in prior reporting or any prior information on the part of Iraq, I think is being very foolish. But, if you look at Saddam Hussein when he's backed into a corner and we have any kind of a military action that is very imminent, and you've just reported on that and I think that's obvious, he has a history in the past of playing this kind of card.

Again, I think it's a window of opportunity, not only for Scott, but all the prisoners of war that he holds and what it means for every man and woman that wears the uniform of the United States that one individual life means a great deal in regards to American values. We're not giving up.

BLITZER: It's such a difficult balancing act because on the one hand you don't want to give up. On the other hand, you don't want to raise expectations on the part of the family and get them overly excited when their hopes may be dashed.

ROBERTS: Wolf, they receive an incredible amount of information almost daily. Some of it comes from the intelligence community, others it just comes in. And so, you know, let's -- you know somebody asked me well, if you really pressed for this what would happen if Saddam Hussein would actually kill Scott if, in fact, he was a prisoner. He's been there 12 years. I mean it is time to get this settled in regards to his fate and I think now we have a window of opportunity and we should take it.

BLITZER: All right, Senator Roberts, good luck to you. Good luck to Senator Nelson, all your colleagues, Senator Warner. This is a very, very important issue. No one should be left behind. Senator Pat Roberts, the new chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee thank you very much.

ROBERTS: OK, well, thank you, Wolf. Thank you again.

BLITZER: Thank you, sir.

A real life home alone story, two children on their own for three weeks while their mother allegedly hung out with her Internet boyfriend on the other side of the country.

Plus, kids starved, whose fault is it? New Jersey's governor speaks out.

And, Oprah's big weight loss is her diet program a fad or a fix? We'll as the man who created it, Bob Greene. He'll join me live. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Kids starved in basement. Their caretaker may face murder charges. Now the governor calls for changes to make sure it never happens again. We'll have the latest on this twisted case.

But first let's look at other stories making news right now in our CNN "News Alert.

(NEWSBREAK)

BLITZER: Illinois Governor George Ryan today delivered a blow against capital punishment in his state, pardoning four death row inmates. And he may do the same for dozens of other death row inmates as early as tomorrow. Our Chicago Bureau Chief Jeff Flock is joining us now with the latest on this important story -- Jeff.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: Indeed, Wolf. He may do something similar tomorrow, but first today we're outside Cook County Jail because that's one of -- one of the four men who were pardoned today is now being housed. We expect him to be released at any time. A frigid cold day in Chicago, but a happy one for these men.

Now first reaction starting to come in from prosecutors and victims' families. The local prosecutor here in Cook County, States Attorney Dick Devine said Governor Ryan today was just unconscionable.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. GEORGE RYAN (R), ILLINOIS: Today, I shall be a friend to Madison Holbley, Stanley Howard, Aaron Patterson and Leroy Orange. Today I am pardoning them.

FLOCK (voice-over): With that bold stroke, Illinois Governor George Ryan continued his effort to fix, himself, a death penalty system he says is broken.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He saw the flaws in the justice system, OK? And for the first time, there's a politician saying there is something wrong with the whole justice system.

FLOCK: Praise for the governor from the inmate's families. Among them Madison Hobley. The governor said police tortured him to confessing to a 1987 arson-murder of seven people that he didn't commit. Myra Hobley is his sister.

MYRA HOBLEY, SISTER OF MADISON HOBLEY: ... I'm glad it's over with. Sixteen years of torture has being -- been put to an end.

FLOCK: Leroy Orange's attorneys came here to Cook County Jail where they visited him dozens of times to finally pick him up.

(on camera): And his reaction was...

THOMAS GERAGHTY, LEROY ORANGE'S ATTORNEY: That he couldn't believe it. He was stunned. He had no idea that this might happen. He was stunned. He was grateful. As you know, you've met him... FLOCK (voice-over): Indeed, in an exclusive interview with CNN in October, Orange told us he would just be grateful to have his life spared.

LEROY ORANGE, FREE FROM DEATH ROW: Beg for my life.

FLOCK: After his speech I spoke with Governor Ryan about what is to come.

(on camera): Tomorrow, commutations. Can you give us any indication about number?

RYAN: No. As a matter of fact, we're going back to the office and go over some more cases.

FLOCK: Have you firmly made a decision in all the cases?

RYAN: I have not, not in all the cases.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FLOCK: And now, Wolf, we have first pictures of the first man to get out. One of the men you just heard us refer to there, Madison Hobley. He was in prison down in Pontiac. Hobley, and I believe Patterson, also down in Pontiac and Leroy Orange up here, as we said, at Cook County Jail in Chicago.

He was surrounded by family members, his attorneys, who have been fighting for him for years. Private investigators who have investigated this case. That scene we expect to be repeated, Wolf, here outside Cook County Jail.

The reason this one has been delayed. We thought Orange might be the first. But apparently they faxed over, his attorneys faxed over the letter granting the pardon and the jail said we're not taking a fax. You need to go back and get the original letter. So they sent the law students back to get the letter. That's what they're doing right now, so we're still waiting.

Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: This is such a shocking development. Such a shocking story because the governor clearly believes that these men who had been on death row for years were physically tortured into confessing is that right?

FLOCK: Indeed. There are ten on death row that are believed to be victims of torture. That doesn't necessarily mean they're innocent, the fact that they were tortured.

Ryan though thought these four specifically were innocent. The commutations tomorrow now may be just commuting the sentence to life in prison. And those men the governor doesn't think are innocent, but just thinks they didn't get a fair trial or fair shake from the legal system.

BLITZER: Jeff, what happens to those law enforcement authorities who allegedly tortured these prisoners?

FLOCK: Already the man who commanded the police district station house where it took place has been fired from the police department. He is long gone. Many of the officers have been prosecuted. So they've already rooted that out.

But these guys were still left in prison, some of them contending that they were innocent.

BLITZER: Governor George Ryan, he's a Republican. He's going to be a hero to a lot of people, but a lot of others are going to be hating him as a result of what he's doing. But he's got guts. You got to admit that. Jeff Flock, our Chicago bureau chief, he's been all over this story from day one. Thank, Jeff, very much.

In California, a woman is in jail for allegedly leaving her two young children home alone for three weeks. What makes this case so extraordinary is the reported reason for her actions. CNN's Anne McDermott reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNE MCDERMOTT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This woman, Janet Chen of Orange County, California, is accused of leaving her 7- year-old daughter and 4-year-old son home alone. Alone over Christmas, alone for almost three weeks, alone with no phone, no TV and only packaged snacks and frozen food to eat.

DET. CORINNE LOOMIS, PLACENTIA, CALIF. POLICE: TV dinners, Bagel Bites, corn dogs and the fact of the matter is is that she -- they had run out of food by the that time the officers got there.

MCDERMOTT: Police say the kids were told to stay inside but this neighbor spotted the 4-year-old peeking out with tears on his face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually I think this right here is exactly -- this little spot right there.

MCDERMOTT: No one saw their single mother. And eventually someone dialed 911.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife said she heard them in there crying today.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MCDERMOTT: Where was mother? Well police say she traveled from California to North Carolina to meet a man she had been chatting with on the Internet. She remains in jail for now and attempts to reach her attorney, a public defender, were unsuccessful.

Her neighbors though were talking.

MELISSA NAKDOLILLO, NEIGHBOR: And they literally were prisoners in their own home. No outside connection whatsoever. It's sick.

MCDERMOTT: The children are now in protective custody in a children's home and said to be doing well.

Anne McDermott, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And in another shocking child abuse case, New Jersey's governor, Jim McGreevey, today vowed to change a state system that failed to prevent the death of one boy and the beating and starving of his two brothers. CNN's Jamie Colby has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. JIM MCGREEVEY (D), NEW JERSEY: The failure of government in this instance to safeguard the health and welfare of these children is beyond excuse. It is sickening.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey announces new measures to protect children.

Two brothers who were under the Division of Youth and Family Services, or DYFS' care in Newark, New Jersey, remain hospitalized for malnutrition and burns.

Their brother, a 7-year-old Faheem Williams, dead. All at the hands of a system that New Jersey's Human Services commissioner, a former Newark DYFS supervisor describes as seriously outdated and under supervised.

GWENDOLYN HARRIS, COMMISSIONER, HUMAN SERVICES DEPT.: The agency lacks state of the art technology infrastructure. You've heard about our computer system. It was instituted in 1980.

COLBY: An on going search is trying to locate other kids. The Williams case worker had not seen them in a year.

HARRIS: Since the time of this order, the number has now been reduced to 110. We found 170 of those children, saw them within the last 48 hours.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY: And additional measures include more modernized tracking technology, appropriate case loads for those case workers, an independent review panel to review decisions and no case will ever be closed, according to the governor, at that level, at the case level. It will go to a district review panel as well.

And the report issued by the commissioner of health given to the governor also lists some sobering statistics. Also included these statistics 17 New Jersey kids died last year due to abuse or neglect. Six were under DYFS' supervision -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Jamie Colby, all over this horrible story. Thanks very , Jamie, much for that report.

This note to our viewers, the New Jersey governor, James McGreevey, will discuss this case tonight on CNN's "NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN". That, of course, starts 10:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 p.m. on the West Coast.

Want to update you now on that other story. We've been reporting this hour that highrise fire in Chicago. We saw those pictures. We see pictures right now of people escaping the smoke, escaping the fire.

Joining us now Commander Will Knight on the phone of the Chicago Fire Department. Commander, tell us what's going on?

COMMANDER WILL KNIGHT, CHICAGO FIRE DEPARTMENT: At 3:15 today we had a phone call for a fire, reported smoke coming throughout the building, of a five floor building. The dimensions were 50 by 125. Fire crews first on the scene saw heavy smoke coming from the basement. They entered the basement. Also put ground ladders up on the surrounding area of the front and rear entrance. They made around 20 rescues off the ladder from the top floors. The fire fighters went into the building.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They also noted the stair ways were heavy with smoke. They also called for plan one. A plan one involves ambulances, also paramedics as well. At that time, the deputy fire commissioners arrived on the scene alerted it was a 511 fire, which is five alarm fire. Ordered everyone out of the building. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) arrived on the scene and shut the gas of into the building as well. Firefighters found heavy smoke in the stairways and the firemen said the chimney. There were 26 people treated and transported to the hospital. At that time, -- right now at this time at our 20 minutes later, the fire is now secured.

BLITZER: All right. Well, that's good news, Commander Will Knight, at least the fire is secured. Thanks for giving us that update of the five alarm fire at the Chicago apartment building.

We have much more news coming up including this. Reality television. Are we, we, becoming a nation of voyeurs?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What will happen when this average Joe is transformed into a multimillionaire?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The creator of the "Real World," Jon Murray joins us live. I'll ask him if the genre he helped to create is now spinning out of control.

And Oprah's victory with weight loss. Is her new health program a recipe for you. We'll ask her fitness guru Bob Green. He'll join me live. But first, the answer to today's news quiz. Early we asked which state authorizes the use of a firing squad as a method of execution? The answer all the above, Idaho, Utah, Oklahoma. By the way, three states still a law hanging, Washington state, Delaware and New Hampshire. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More than ever TV is getting real in 2003 with its glut of reality shows hitting the air waves. The networks love them because they're cheap to make and draw viewers in droves.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EVAN WALLACE, "JOE MILLIONAIRE": Good to meet you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nice to meet you.

WALLACE: She seemed so down to earth and not like a gold digger.

BLITZER (voice-over): You may shudder with indignation.

WALLACE: There's a card inside.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you very much.

WALLACE: I'll see you later.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow.

BLITZER: You may defiantly say I never watch those shows.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god.

BLITZER: But you also may ever so secretly be watching. Others certainly are. Many others.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's filling it. Whoa.

BLITZER: The reality is that reality TV, what some network executives call unscripted programming, is a raging success. This week "Joe Millionaire" on Fox attracted 18.6 million viewers. And ABC's "The Bachelorette" wasn't far behind, burying NBC's popular "West Wing," by three and half million views.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I expect my husband to make a certain amount of money, yes.

BLITZER: They're bringing viewers back to the networks. They're also bringing out the critics who are aghast at the precieved voyeurism, lack of intellect and questionable values.

SANDY RIOS, CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA: We've got a 50 percent divorce rate at least. So when you present programs like these, where the end game is marriage, based on marrying this fake millionaire or picking out of 25 girls the one that rings your chimes, that's a terrible reason to choose a mate.

BLITZER: Trista Rehn, who's dating 25 guys on the "Bachelorette" to find her mate, says don be so quick to judge.

TRISTA REHN, "BACHELORETTE": It's really hard, I think, to meet good people. And I had a whole casting department out there looking for me. ABC was basically playing match maker and these guys are all blood tested and psychologically screened.

BLITZER: But do we need to be psychologically screened? Why is it that we can't wait to watch someone squirm in a tank full of snakes on NBC's "Celebrity Fear Factor"?

MICHAEL MEDVED, FILM CRITIC: These shows exist for one reason only, and that's to humiliate good looking people.

BLITZER: Don't judge this format as a disrespectful "Johnny Come Lately." Reality TV has been around for decades. Even before MTV's "The Real World" now in its 12th season. And the networks will keep those shows coming. From their standpoint, what's not to like about a popular show that's much popular to produce than a sitcom or drama. What of the critics?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The negative part of all these shows is they make us all into peeping Toms. But the point is, compared to the rest of the stuff on TV.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Joining me now from Los Angeles to talk about this TV trend is John Murray, creator of one of the first breakout reality shows, MTV's "The Real World."

John, thanks for joining us. Are you concerned about what you helped create has now run amuck?

JON MURRAY, BUNIM-MURRAY PRODUCTIONS: No. I think most of it's a lot of fun and obviously the audience is enjoying these shows.

BLITZER: What about the critics who say this is really degrading the entire culture that we have here in the United States?

MURRAY: Well, I don't know if you can say all of reality programming does that. I think you have to look at each show unto itself. It's hard to make blanket judgments. But, you know, critics have been harsh on the rest of the television landscape, too. So, not surprising that they have a problem with this.

BLITZER: How much further can they go in these shows on the broadcast networks given some of the standards they have to at least try to uphold?

MURRAY: Well, I mean, I think you're sort of seeing as far as they're going to go. I think probably liability issues are probably an insurance issues are more important than the standards issues. It's how far will your insurance company let you go and how far will your lawyer let you go.

BLITZER: Have you been surprised at the success of the program "The Real World" that you created?

MURRAY: Well "The Real World" I am surprised, at least I was initially, at how the public at least the MTV audience came to love it and the ratings of our show have gone up every season and we're currently enjoying our highest ratings ever with "The Real World Vegas." I think that's little different because that's a show where basically, we're holding a mirror to the age group that's watching the show and documenting a group of young people's lives and putting it into 22 minute episodes. And those young people's lives over the last 13 years have changed and in some ways they're very similar.

BLITZER: You have a deal I'm told with a production company to start a new reality show. I take it with NBC, a program called "Starting Over."

What is that all about?

MURRAY: Yes. We have a deal with nbc to do a syndicated show called "Starting Over." It's going to give women a chance to start over. Maybe choices they're not happy with or maybe they're 40 years old and the man they were involved with left them and some how gone off with the money. We're going to give women a chance to live together, have the benefits of a life coach and work with them to start over their lives and the viewers will get to watch and hopefully some of the women who are watching will be inspired by what these women are doing.

BLITZER: Nothing wrong with that. "Starting Over." A lot of us would like to start over at some point in our lives.

Jon Murray, thank you very much. Good luck to you.

MURRAY: Thank you.

She's perhaps the most visible face of weight loss and weight gain, but is Oprah's health plan the right way for you to shed pounds? We'll talk to the man in charge of her fitness program, Bob Greene, live when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: She's arguably America's most famous dieter, and Oprah Winfrey has done it once again. She recently told viewers of her top- rated talk show she lost 33 pounds after tipping the scales at, get this, 200 plus. She credits her personal trainer Bob Greene. His latest book on fitness is called "Get With the Program." Bob Greene joins us now live from New York. Bob, we don't have a lot of time, but I want you to give our viewers the most important advice you've given Oprah to try to lose those pounds, because a lot of us have gone through that kind of up and down weight problem.

BOB GREENE, AUTHOR, "GET WITH THE PROGRAM": Well, you should give up on the gimmicks. They don't work. It really is what you put into your program is what you're going to get out of it. So it requires exercise and pushing away from the table a little sooner than you have been.

BLITZER: Common sense advice. Exercise. How much exercise is really necessary?

GREENE: Obviously, we're all blessed with a certain set of genetics and you have to model it after what works for you, but for most people at least 20 minutes five or six times a week.

BLITZER: Without giving any secrets away, Oprah's problem, which has been so well documented out there, a lot of us feel sorry for her because she's out in the public spotlight as she is. What's her problem? Why does she keep apparently go up and down, up and down?

GREENE: She's very public about using food for things other than her nutrition, which quite honestly most people fall into. If there's an emotional event in her life, she'll use food to comfort her. And she's worked very hard on that. She exercises each day and really has overcome a lot to stop using food for reasons other than just nutrition.

BLITZER: So it's not only an actual exercise and diet, there's a psychological almost aspect to this. You deal with that as well, don't you?

GREENE: That's actually the core of "Get With the Program," the emotional side to it, because, again, all of us at one time or another has used food for something other than its purpose. A stressful event, boredom, whether it's an emotional event in our lives. We use food to comfort ourselves. Or it's one of the most acceptable ways -- as a coping mechanism that we have. You can use alcohol, or drugs. It is in that category for many people.

BLITZER: I know you reminded me, we met with Oprah in Telluride many years ago. How's she doing now on this weight loss program, the exercise regimen you put her on?

GREENE: She's done great. Now, I had her sign a contract. That's a very powerful tool. Most people respond very well if they put what they're going to do in writing. So I had her do that. And she worked extremely hard the six weeks before the Emmys. And as you know, if you saw the Emmys, she looked great, and that was a result primarily of those six weeks.

BLITZER: She looked fabulous at the Emmys. We love Oprah. And we love your new book. Good practical advice. It's called "Get With the Program." I'm going to get with the program myself.

GREENE: All right, Wolf. We'll see you.

BLITZER: Let's see if that helps. I'll do my best. Bob Greene, thanks very much.

Time's running out for your turn to weigh in on our Web question of the day. Should the United States go to war against Iraq even if weapons inspectors say there is no smoking gun? We'll have the results immediately when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We want to go quickly to the Pentagon. Our correspondent Barbara Starr is standing by with some breaking news. Barbara, tell our viewers.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, a very controversial issue has emerged here. CNN has learned that for the first time the U.S. military and the intelligence community in the last two days have began a surreptitious e-mail campaign inside Iraq. They are sending disguised e-mails to key Iraqi leaders urging them to give up, to dissent and defect from Saddam Hussein. The key issue here is these e-mails from the military and the intelligence community here in the United States have disguised return addresses. The U.S. is hoping that the Iraqis don't realize where they're coming from.

We have learned about this operation in the last several hours. Originally, senior Bush administration officials had asked us not to report it. They now have agreed that we can -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, we'll be following the story. Good work, Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.

Here's the results of our Web question of the day. Should the United States go to war against Iraq even if weapons inspectors say there is no smoking gun? Look at this -- 20 percent of you say yes, 80 percent, 80 percent of you say no. This is not a scientific poll.

That's all the time we have today. Please join me again Monday as well as Sunday on "LATE EDITION," the last word in Sunday talk. Among my guests Sunday, the former secretary of state, Henry Kissinger. That's all the time we have. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" is standing by.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Police Turn to Sonar in Search for Pregnant Woman>


Aired January 10, 2003 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Did the nuclear crisis just get worse?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today's announcement is of serious concern.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: North Korea's new broken promise and a bold dare that economic sanctions are...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAK GIL YON, N. KOREAN AMB. TO U.N.: Declaration of war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Can a veteran troubleshooter help keep the lid on?

As the buildup continues for a possible war with Iraq, a fresh hint that a pilot downed in the 1991 Gulf War may still be alive.

Tortured, jailed on death row, and now pardoned.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Innocent people convicted to die for a crime they didn't commit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Is this just the tip of an iceberg in Illinois?

What's at the bottom of the bay? Police turn to sonar in their search for a missing pregnant woman.

And, isn't real life real enough, from the romantic to the repulsive Reality TV goes over the top.

It's Friday, January 10, 2003. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. A stunning turn today in the North Korea standoff as the communist nation essentially rips up a global treaty on nuclear weapons and challenges the world to do something about it.

We have two reports. CNN national correspondent Bob Franken is in New Mexico, where a veteran troubleshooter is on the case.

But we begin with the urgent official diplomacy and our CNN State Department correspondent Andrea Koppel -- Andrea.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, North Korea has been threatening for years to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, and finally early this morning, while most of us were sleeping, it did just that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice-over): Only hours after North Korea blasted the United States anew and threatened war, Secretary of State Powell fired back and condemned North Korea's decision to withdraw from the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We hope that the North Korean leadership will realize the folly of its actions, will realize that the international community and the United States will not be intimidated, and we will continue to work for a peaceful solution.

KOPPEL: But Powell and the head of the U.N.'s nuclear watchdog agency warned Pyongyang if it doesn't reverse course soon the next stop will be the U.N. Security Council.

POWELL: This kind of disrespect for such an agreement can not go un-dealt with.

MOHAMED ELBARADEI, IAEA: What we are talking about is a matter of weeks.

KOPPEL: Earlier in the day, North Korea's ambassador to the U.N. had a warning of his own.

PAK: Any kind of economic sanctions to be taken by the Security Council of the United Nations against the PPRK is a declaration of war.

KOPPEL: But the Bush White House still refused to call this a crisis.

CHENEY: Today's announcement is of serious concern to North Korea's neighbors and to the entire international community.

KOPPEL: All this while in New Mexico North Korean diplomats held a second day of private talks with Governor Bill Richardson.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: While Richardson is not an official emissary or envoy of the Bush administration Secretary Powell, Wolf, said that he had spoken to Richardson three times since talks began last night and said he expected to speak with him again later this evening when they end.

In the meantime, President Bush spoke with China's President Jiang Zemin in the hopes of resolving the nuclear faceoff -- Wolf. BLITZER: Andrea Koppel at the State Department. Andrea, thanks very much. Let's get a little bit more now on what the Governor of New Mexico Bill Richardson is doing as he tries to recreate that troubleshooter role he used to have.

Our Bob Franken is on the scene for us tonight in Santa Fe -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, Andrea spoke about the official situation. This is the semi-official situation. Here you have a person who is not in the government, decidedly so. New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson is a Democrat, a Clinton Democrat from that administration, but he is somebody well known to the North Koreans.

As you pointed out, he was a troubleshooter. Some of his troubleshooting was in North Korea in the early and mid-'90s. He was also the United Nations ambassador. He has met the North Koreans. They know him. They trust him. They respect him.

These are the kinds of comments that we've been hearing; therefore, they contacted him. Could he, in fact, participate in discussions, not negotiations, to somehow bridge this gap between an administration that has diplomatic difficulties talking to the North Koreas, and the country itself?

They've come here to Sante Fe, the state capital. They met yesterday in the governor's mansion. They met this morning. They've taken a break. They are resuming later, in about an hour as a matter of fact. It's considered quite remarkable that they're continuing these conversations. They may even go tomorrow.

The Nonproliferation Treaty has been on the table. Richardson has been talking to the North Koreans about that. He has also been talking repeatedly with Secretary of State Colin Powell, so he's not going off the reservation.

These continuing talks will go until they're done. The fact that they're going longer is considered, as I said, something of note. For many people, it was something that when the spokesperson for the governor talked to us, he was really quite careful in what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILLY SPARKS, GOVERNOR'S SPOKESMAN: I think that both the governor and the North Koreans are interested in substantive talks. As I said, they are positive in atmosphere but very frank. We decided to continue the talks at four o'clock this afternoon. I don't know how long they'll last into the night.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FRANKEN: And, of course, how long they will last will be dependent a lot on what each side has to say. Each side, of course trying to come up with some sort of framework that could then be kicked upstairs in effect to the Bush administration to begin its official context -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Bob Franken on the scene for us in Santa Fe. He'll be there and will be awaiting word when those talks end. Thanks, Bob very much.

More signs today of a gathering storm in the Persian Gulf, three U.S. Navy ships today left their home port in Norfolk, Virginia to pick up 7,000 Marines at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. The marines are to deploy to the Persian Gulf very soon, following more than 1,000 others already sent to the region.

Meantime, Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina is on alert and is expected to deploy some of its F-15 fighters in the coming days. More than 1,200 members of the Florida National Guard have traveled to Fort Stewart in Georgia. They may be used to secure the garrison while the Army's 3rd Infantry Division is deployed in Kuwait or they may be sent to the Persian Gulf themselves. It's the largest mobilization of the Florida Guard since World War II.

Britain's largest naval task force in two decades will put to sea tomorrow, headed toward the Persian Gulf. The carrier Arc Royal loaded with helicopters will be joined later by another carrier. Together they would be able to land up to 3,000 Royal Marines deep in Iraqi territory, among the other vessels frigates, destroyers, and a submarine.

You're getting a second chance to weigh in on this story because of yesterday's technical glitch. Should the United States go to war against Iraq even if weapons inspectors say there's no smoking gun? We'll have the results later in this broadcast. Vote at cnn.com/wolf.

And, while you're there, I'd like to hear from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily online column, cnn.com/wolf.

We want to move on now. There's some breaking news developing in Chicago right now where a five-story apartment building is on fire. You're looking at these live pictures thanks to our affiliate WBBM.

There are people we are told trapped inside the building and for the last few minutes we've seen some of them climbing down ladders to escape. We don't know yet how many people are still inside the building, or exactly where the fire is, although we have seen smoke pouring out of what appears to be the basement as well as from the roof.

You're looking at these pictures now of these individuals climbing down the ladder, the ladders that provided escaping the smoke clearly coming up from the lower part of this high-rise in Chicago, this building, other ladders clearly on the scene as well.

Firefighters attempting to rescue individuals inside this building, an extensive amount of smoke obviously coming forward. Fire crews, we're also told, are on top of the building. You may see some of them in this picture. They've cut several holes in the roof, we're also told, to allow the smoke to get out. As we get closer, we'll see some more people presumably trying to escape this fire.

We'll stay on top of this story and bring you additional information as it becomes available, these pictures courtesy of our affiliate WBBM, live pictures from this fire right now in Chicago.

Two Illinois National Guard pilots may face up to 64 years in prison if convicted of manslaughter and other charges for the friendly fire deaths of four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan last year. Their case goes before an Air Force hearing officer on Monday, but should the Air Force itself shoulder the blame?

Our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Four Canadians were killed, eight others wounded in April when a U.S. F-16 pilot dropped a 500-pound bomb on their live fire training exercise near Kandahar, Afghanistan, believing their mortar practice was hostile fire.

It was a mistake and now an Air Force general will decide if Majors Harry Schmidt and Bill Umbach will be court martialed in what would be the first criminal charges brought against U.S. pilots in combat.

CHARLES GITTINS, SCHMIDT DEFENSE ATTY.: An accident in combat is an accident in combat. You discipline the officer but you don't make it criminal. This is not a criminal event.

MCINTYRE: Military investigators found Schmidt, the former top gun pilot who dropped the bomb failed to exercise proper flight discipline as a flight wingman and, as Flight Leader Umbach failed to take control of the situation.

While the Canadian government has expressed satisfaction the pilots are facing serious charges, on an Internet Web site raising money for their defense, supporters and family members contend Schmidt and Umbach are being made scapegoats because neither pilot was briefed that the Canadians were exercising in the war zone.

JOAN SCHMIDT, PILOT'S MOTHER: Somewhere along the chain of command this information that should have been passed on to the pilots never made it and that's why, I think, they are scapegoats.

MCINTYRE: Investigators did fault the chain of command as well, finding that the mission planning and preparation processes were ineffective and that is the heart of the pilots' defense.

GITTINS: There is no question that this accident would not have happened if the pilots had been notified of a very unusual event that being a friendly live fire exercise in a combat area. MCINTYRE (on camera): There is another issue, the use of the drug Dexedrine, an amphetamine issues to pilots who wanted to keep them alert on long missions. The defense contends the pilots were pressured to take the so-called "go pills," were never warned of the side effects, and that the pills may be one reason the pilots made some bad decisions under pressure.

MCINTYRE (voice-over): It's a charge the Air Force flatly denies.

COL. PETE DEMITRY, U.S. AIR FORCE: The Air Force's program is safe. It's effective. We have the science behind it. It's voluntary. We use minuscule doses and it saves lives.

MCINTYRE: The fate of the pilots now rests in the hands of a three-star general who will review the findings of Monday's preliminary hearing and decide if the pilots should face a criminal trial.

Jamie McIntyre CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: A pregnant woman missing since Christmas Eve, is the key to her disappearance at the bottom of the bay, the latest on the investigation.

Also, home alone for three weeks, did a California mom take off to meet her cyber lover?

And, live from death row, the Illinois governor takes a bold step to end what he calls a shameful scorecard of injustice.

We'll have all that but first today's news quiz.

Which state authorizes the use of a firing squad as a method of execution, Idaho, Utah, Oklahoma, all of the above?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The search for a missing California woman has suddenly focused on a corner of the San Francisco Bay where authorities have detected what may, repeat may, be a body.

CNN's Rusty Dornin has been following the case of Laci Peterson. She's joining us now live with the latest -- Rusty.

RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Wolf this has been such a frustrating case from the very beginning. There have just been very few leads, almost no clues, and now they have something that could be a lead or it may not be a lead.

Now, divers have been searching the Berkeley Marina. That's in the San Francisco Bay area where Scott Peterson says that he went fishing the day his wife, Laci, disappeared. Now, divers late yesterday afternoon discovered, using side scanning sonar, an objection they say resembles a body. They only say it resembles a body. They could not pull it out yesterday and they could not pull it out today because of very bad weather. There's been a storm in that area, also the currents are very heavy, and they say the divers are also very fatigued.

Now meantime, police have been very tight lipped. They will not talk about Scott Peterson whatsoever, and they also say that there still have been no credible witnesses that have placed Scott Peterson at the Berkeley Marina when he says he was there.

Now, despite this new speculation with this object in the bay, Laci Peterson's family says they still stand firmly behind Scott Peterson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRENT LAROCHA, BROTHER: You know my confidence is so high that Scott had nothing to do with it. I'm not really that concerned. It's not bothering me too much and it seems to me if it really was something significant they'd be out there today to take care of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DORNIN: Now, we're looking right now at a live picture of the Berkeley Marina in the bay area. It's been very quiet there all day. None of the divers, none of the search teams have shown up there. We understand they will be coming very early tomorrow morning to start the search to see exactly what that object is.

Now meantime, here at the Modesto Police Department, it's also very quiet here today and they say there will be no press conferences until something significant happens, until they pull whatever that is up out of the bay and let people know exactly what they found -- Wolf.

BLITZER: It may or may not be something. We'll have to wait at least until tomorrow. Rusty Dornin with us on the latest. Thanks, Rusty, very much.

Shot down over Iraq during the first Gulf War, is Scott Speicher still alive? The search for answers continues. We'll talk to Senator Pat Roberts. He's the new chairman of the Intelligence Committee. He has information on this case.

Plus, starved to death how three innocent kids fell through the cracks again and again.

And, are we becoming a nation of voyeurs? America's obsession with peeping sparks the network ratings, but first, a look at news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Banking on change. Bank workers have joined the general strike in Venezuela aimed at the ouster of President Hugo Chavez. In Washington, the White House says it's looking for ways to restore stability.

Dead end, London police say a gunman who held them at bay for 15 days set fire to his apartment. After the fire was put out, the gunman was found dead. It's said to have been the longest domestic siege in British history.

Alpine accident, a key highway through the Austrian Alps was closed after an Italian truck crashed into a Belgian bus in Germany. Three people were killed and 45 others were injured. Icy conditions may have played a role.

Deep freeze, humanitarian groups say authorities should be doing more to help homeless Russians survive frigid temperatures. Cold kills about 400 people each year in Moscow alone and this winter has been harsh. Moscow temperatures are expected to drop well below zero this weekend.

Spying a spider, a crowd in Bangkok, Thailand watched not one but ten spider-men climb down a 32-story skyscraper. It was a stunt to publicize the opening of a new hotel.

"Tomb Raider II," Hollywood comes to Hong Kong. They're shooting a new "Tomb Raider" movie in the Chinese city, "Laura Croft Returns." One again, Angelina Jolie plays the lead role, and that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The United States recently obtained more intelligence hinting that U.S. Navy Pilot Scott Speicher is alive in Iraq. Sources say they have nothing to indicate the information is accurate. Speicher, of course, was downed in the first hours of the Gulf War 12 years ago exactly next week.

He was initialed listed as killed, then listed more recently as missing. But at the urging of Senator Pat Roberts of Kansas, the Pentagon in October changed Speicher's status once again to missing/captured.

Roberts is the incoming chairman of the Intelligence Committee. He recently wrote to the Iraqi President Saddam Hussein requesting a meeting to clear up Speicher's fate.

Senator Roberts joins me now live from Kansas City, Missouri. Senator thanks so much for joining us.

This is such a shocking story, to especially those of use who remember the case. I covered the first Gulf War. What brought you directly into it and fill our viewers in on the latest information based on what you know.

SEN. PAT ROBERTS (R-KS), INTELLIGENCE CMTE.: Well, number one, Wolf, I want to thank you, Wolf, for bringing this to the nation's attention right at the time when we might be facing imminent kinds of military action. We shouldn't forget that we left somebody behind.

And, you're right, it was 12 years ago and Scott was listed as KIA or killed in action. There has never been any evidence that that's the case and the law, the law of the land is that until you can actually prove somebody is deceased, he or she should be simply listed as MIA.

We changed Scott from KIA to MIA, now to missing/captured. I think he's a POW. We have a lot of related sightings of an American POW. You will recall President Clinton said he might be alive. President Bush has mentioned this even in his U.N. speech.

We think there's a window of opportunity here. That's why we've made the plea to Saddam Hussein, be a humanitarian if you can be. I don't think there's any downside risk to our national security in regards to the threat that Iraq faces. But, he could, he could actually finally determine the fate of Scott.

I myself used to say it was possible. He may be alive. I think it is probable. If you connect the dots of all of the information that we're receiving from the Speicher team, from the intelligence, well the arena, all of the intelligence community involved, and then also other reported sightings, I think there's a pretty good chance he is alive.

BLITZER: In your new capacity, Senator, as the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, presumably you will be in a much better position to connect those dots for the family, the loved ones so deeply concerned about the fate of Captain Speicher?

ROBERTS: Well, there's a book by Amy Yarsinske called "No One Left Behind" and we have been in touch with the Speicher family ever since we've become involved, about five or six years ago. I wish we'd have been involved earlier than that but quite frankly very egregious mistakes were made. It was like -- I can't tell you what it's like if you look at one mistake after another. We did actually leave somebody behind.

So, yes, as chairman of the Intelligence Committee we'll continue that work. We've been very active, I say we, Senator Bob Smith the former Senator was very active in this, and Senator Bill Nelson of Florida has joined me, along with Senator John Warner who is the chairman of the Armed Services Committee.

We hope to go to that area very soon. Every time we do we ask about Scott Speicher. Hopefully this will pay off.

BLITZER: As you well know, Senator, the Iraqi government position is he's dead. He didn't survive the crash, and they also say come over U.S. government. Bring a delegation and we'll show you whatever you want to see. The Bush administration has refused to take up the Iraqis on that proposal.

ROBERTS: Well, Wolf, we've been there. You know we had the Red Cross in there in '94. Quite frankly, I don't think until 1994 that Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis really realized that Scott survived the crash and was kept in hiding by a Bedouin tribe, at least that's the theory that is purported by Amy's book "No One Left Behind" and I think it is true.

And so, we have actually been at the site. We've looked at the site, and let's not forget that the Iraqis first told us Scott was eaten by wolves, for goodness sakes. Then they sent some remains over and DNA proved they weren't Scott.

Anybody that puts any faith in prior reporting or any prior information on the part of Iraq, I think is being very foolish. But, if you look at Saddam Hussein when he's backed into a corner and we have any kind of a military action that is very imminent, and you've just reported on that and I think that's obvious, he has a history in the past of playing this kind of card.

Again, I think it's a window of opportunity, not only for Scott, but all the prisoners of war that he holds and what it means for every man and woman that wears the uniform of the United States that one individual life means a great deal in regards to American values. We're not giving up.

BLITZER: It's such a difficult balancing act because on the one hand you don't want to give up. On the other hand, you don't want to raise expectations on the part of the family and get them overly excited when their hopes may be dashed.

ROBERTS: Wolf, they receive an incredible amount of information almost daily. Some of it comes from the intelligence community, others it just comes in. And so, you know, let's -- you know somebody asked me well, if you really pressed for this what would happen if Saddam Hussein would actually kill Scott if, in fact, he was a prisoner. He's been there 12 years. I mean it is time to get this settled in regards to his fate and I think now we have a window of opportunity and we should take it.

BLITZER: All right, Senator Roberts, good luck to you. Good luck to Senator Nelson, all your colleagues, Senator Warner. This is a very, very important issue. No one should be left behind. Senator Pat Roberts, the new chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee thank you very much.

ROBERTS: OK, well, thank you, Wolf. Thank you again.

BLITZER: Thank you, sir.

A real life home alone story, two children on their own for three weeks while their mother allegedly hung out with her Internet boyfriend on the other side of the country.

Plus, kids starved, whose fault is it? New Jersey's governor speaks out.

And, Oprah's big weight loss is her diet program a fad or a fix? We'll as the man who created it, Bob Greene. He'll join me live. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Kids starved in basement. Their caretaker may face murder charges. Now the governor calls for changes to make sure it never happens again. We'll have the latest on this twisted case.

But first let's look at other stories making news right now in our CNN "News Alert.

(NEWSBREAK)

BLITZER: Illinois Governor George Ryan today delivered a blow against capital punishment in his state, pardoning four death row inmates. And he may do the same for dozens of other death row inmates as early as tomorrow. Our Chicago Bureau Chief Jeff Flock is joining us now with the latest on this important story -- Jeff.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: Indeed, Wolf. He may do something similar tomorrow, but first today we're outside Cook County Jail because that's one of -- one of the four men who were pardoned today is now being housed. We expect him to be released at any time. A frigid cold day in Chicago, but a happy one for these men.

Now first reaction starting to come in from prosecutors and victims' families. The local prosecutor here in Cook County, States Attorney Dick Devine said Governor Ryan today was just unconscionable.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. GEORGE RYAN (R), ILLINOIS: Today, I shall be a friend to Madison Holbley, Stanley Howard, Aaron Patterson and Leroy Orange. Today I am pardoning them.

FLOCK (voice-over): With that bold stroke, Illinois Governor George Ryan continued his effort to fix, himself, a death penalty system he says is broken.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He saw the flaws in the justice system, OK? And for the first time, there's a politician saying there is something wrong with the whole justice system.

FLOCK: Praise for the governor from the inmate's families. Among them Madison Hobley. The governor said police tortured him to confessing to a 1987 arson-murder of seven people that he didn't commit. Myra Hobley is his sister.

MYRA HOBLEY, SISTER OF MADISON HOBLEY: ... I'm glad it's over with. Sixteen years of torture has being -- been put to an end.

FLOCK: Leroy Orange's attorneys came here to Cook County Jail where they visited him dozens of times to finally pick him up.

(on camera): And his reaction was...

THOMAS GERAGHTY, LEROY ORANGE'S ATTORNEY: That he couldn't believe it. He was stunned. He had no idea that this might happen. He was stunned. He was grateful. As you know, you've met him... FLOCK (voice-over): Indeed, in an exclusive interview with CNN in October, Orange told us he would just be grateful to have his life spared.

LEROY ORANGE, FREE FROM DEATH ROW: Beg for my life.

FLOCK: After his speech I spoke with Governor Ryan about what is to come.

(on camera): Tomorrow, commutations. Can you give us any indication about number?

RYAN: No. As a matter of fact, we're going back to the office and go over some more cases.

FLOCK: Have you firmly made a decision in all the cases?

RYAN: I have not, not in all the cases.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FLOCK: And now, Wolf, we have first pictures of the first man to get out. One of the men you just heard us refer to there, Madison Hobley. He was in prison down in Pontiac. Hobley, and I believe Patterson, also down in Pontiac and Leroy Orange up here, as we said, at Cook County Jail in Chicago.

He was surrounded by family members, his attorneys, who have been fighting for him for years. Private investigators who have investigated this case. That scene we expect to be repeated, Wolf, here outside Cook County Jail.

The reason this one has been delayed. We thought Orange might be the first. But apparently they faxed over, his attorneys faxed over the letter granting the pardon and the jail said we're not taking a fax. You need to go back and get the original letter. So they sent the law students back to get the letter. That's what they're doing right now, so we're still waiting.

Wolf, back to you.

BLITZER: This is such a shocking development. Such a shocking story because the governor clearly believes that these men who had been on death row for years were physically tortured into confessing is that right?

FLOCK: Indeed. There are ten on death row that are believed to be victims of torture. That doesn't necessarily mean they're innocent, the fact that they were tortured.

Ryan though thought these four specifically were innocent. The commutations tomorrow now may be just commuting the sentence to life in prison. And those men the governor doesn't think are innocent, but just thinks they didn't get a fair trial or fair shake from the legal system.

BLITZER: Jeff, what happens to those law enforcement authorities who allegedly tortured these prisoners?

FLOCK: Already the man who commanded the police district station house where it took place has been fired from the police department. He is long gone. Many of the officers have been prosecuted. So they've already rooted that out.

But these guys were still left in prison, some of them contending that they were innocent.

BLITZER: Governor George Ryan, he's a Republican. He's going to be a hero to a lot of people, but a lot of others are going to be hating him as a result of what he's doing. But he's got guts. You got to admit that. Jeff Flock, our Chicago bureau chief, he's been all over this story from day one. Thank, Jeff, very much.

In California, a woman is in jail for allegedly leaving her two young children home alone for three weeks. What makes this case so extraordinary is the reported reason for her actions. CNN's Anne McDermott reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANNE MCDERMOTT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This woman, Janet Chen of Orange County, California, is accused of leaving her 7- year-old daughter and 4-year-old son home alone. Alone over Christmas, alone for almost three weeks, alone with no phone, no TV and only packaged snacks and frozen food to eat.

DET. CORINNE LOOMIS, PLACENTIA, CALIF. POLICE: TV dinners, Bagel Bites, corn dogs and the fact of the matter is is that she -- they had run out of food by the that time the officers got there.

MCDERMOTT: Police say the kids were told to stay inside but this neighbor spotted the 4-year-old peeking out with tears on his face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually I think this right here is exactly -- this little spot right there.

MCDERMOTT: No one saw their single mother. And eventually someone dialed 911.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife said she heard them in there crying today.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MCDERMOTT: Where was mother? Well police say she traveled from California to North Carolina to meet a man she had been chatting with on the Internet. She remains in jail for now and attempts to reach her attorney, a public defender, were unsuccessful.

Her neighbors though were talking.

MELISSA NAKDOLILLO, NEIGHBOR: And they literally were prisoners in their own home. No outside connection whatsoever. It's sick.

MCDERMOTT: The children are now in protective custody in a children's home and said to be doing well.

Anne McDermott, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And in another shocking child abuse case, New Jersey's governor, Jim McGreevey, today vowed to change a state system that failed to prevent the death of one boy and the beating and starving of his two brothers. CNN's Jamie Colby has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. JIM MCGREEVEY (D), NEW JERSEY: The failure of government in this instance to safeguard the health and welfare of these children is beyond excuse. It is sickening.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New Jersey Governor Jim McGreevey announces new measures to protect children.

Two brothers who were under the Division of Youth and Family Services, or DYFS' care in Newark, New Jersey, remain hospitalized for malnutrition and burns.

Their brother, a 7-year-old Faheem Williams, dead. All at the hands of a system that New Jersey's Human Services commissioner, a former Newark DYFS supervisor describes as seriously outdated and under supervised.

GWENDOLYN HARRIS, COMMISSIONER, HUMAN SERVICES DEPT.: The agency lacks state of the art technology infrastructure. You've heard about our computer system. It was instituted in 1980.

COLBY: An on going search is trying to locate other kids. The Williams case worker had not seen them in a year.

HARRIS: Since the time of this order, the number has now been reduced to 110. We found 170 of those children, saw them within the last 48 hours.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY: And additional measures include more modernized tracking technology, appropriate case loads for those case workers, an independent review panel to review decisions and no case will ever be closed, according to the governor, at that level, at the case level. It will go to a district review panel as well.

And the report issued by the commissioner of health given to the governor also lists some sobering statistics. Also included these statistics 17 New Jersey kids died last year due to abuse or neglect. Six were under DYFS' supervision -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Jamie Colby, all over this horrible story. Thanks very , Jamie, much for that report.

This note to our viewers, the New Jersey governor, James McGreevey, will discuss this case tonight on CNN's "NEWSNIGHT WITH AARON BROWN". That, of course, starts 10:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 p.m. on the West Coast.

Want to update you now on that other story. We've been reporting this hour that highrise fire in Chicago. We saw those pictures. We see pictures right now of people escaping the smoke, escaping the fire.

Joining us now Commander Will Knight on the phone of the Chicago Fire Department. Commander, tell us what's going on?

COMMANDER WILL KNIGHT, CHICAGO FIRE DEPARTMENT: At 3:15 today we had a phone call for a fire, reported smoke coming throughout the building, of a five floor building. The dimensions were 50 by 125. Fire crews first on the scene saw heavy smoke coming from the basement. They entered the basement. Also put ground ladders up on the surrounding area of the front and rear entrance. They made around 20 rescues off the ladder from the top floors. The fire fighters went into the building.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They also noted the stair ways were heavy with smoke. They also called for plan one. A plan one involves ambulances, also paramedics as well. At that time, the deputy fire commissioners arrived on the scene alerted it was a 511 fire, which is five alarm fire. Ordered everyone out of the building. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) arrived on the scene and shut the gas of into the building as well. Firefighters found heavy smoke in the stairways and the firemen said the chimney. There were 26 people treated and transported to the hospital. At that time, -- right now at this time at our 20 minutes later, the fire is now secured.

BLITZER: All right. Well, that's good news, Commander Will Knight, at least the fire is secured. Thanks for giving us that update of the five alarm fire at the Chicago apartment building.

We have much more news coming up including this. Reality television. Are we, we, becoming a nation of voyeurs?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What will happen when this average Joe is transformed into a multimillionaire?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The creator of the "Real World," Jon Murray joins us live. I'll ask him if the genre he helped to create is now spinning out of control.

And Oprah's victory with weight loss. Is her new health program a recipe for you. We'll ask her fitness guru Bob Green. He'll join me live. But first, the answer to today's news quiz. Early we asked which state authorizes the use of a firing squad as a method of execution? The answer all the above, Idaho, Utah, Oklahoma. By the way, three states still a law hanging, Washington state, Delaware and New Hampshire. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More than ever TV is getting real in 2003 with its glut of reality shows hitting the air waves. The networks love them because they're cheap to make and draw viewers in droves.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

EVAN WALLACE, "JOE MILLIONAIRE": Good to meet you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nice to meet you.

WALLACE: She seemed so down to earth and not like a gold digger.

BLITZER (voice-over): You may shudder with indignation.

WALLACE: There's a card inside.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you very much.

WALLACE: I'll see you later.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow.

BLITZER: You may defiantly say I never watch those shows.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god.

BLITZER: But you also may ever so secretly be watching. Others certainly are. Many others.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's filling it. Whoa.

BLITZER: The reality is that reality TV, what some network executives call unscripted programming, is a raging success. This week "Joe Millionaire" on Fox attracted 18.6 million viewers. And ABC's "The Bachelorette" wasn't far behind, burying NBC's popular "West Wing," by three and half million views.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So I expect my husband to make a certain amount of money, yes.

BLITZER: They're bringing viewers back to the networks. They're also bringing out the critics who are aghast at the precieved voyeurism, lack of intellect and questionable values.

SANDY RIOS, CONCERNED WOMEN FOR AMERICA: We've got a 50 percent divorce rate at least. So when you present programs like these, where the end game is marriage, based on marrying this fake millionaire or picking out of 25 girls the one that rings your chimes, that's a terrible reason to choose a mate.

BLITZER: Trista Rehn, who's dating 25 guys on the "Bachelorette" to find her mate, says don be so quick to judge.

TRISTA REHN, "BACHELORETTE": It's really hard, I think, to meet good people. And I had a whole casting department out there looking for me. ABC was basically playing match maker and these guys are all blood tested and psychologically screened.

BLITZER: But do we need to be psychologically screened? Why is it that we can't wait to watch someone squirm in a tank full of snakes on NBC's "Celebrity Fear Factor"?

MICHAEL MEDVED, FILM CRITIC: These shows exist for one reason only, and that's to humiliate good looking people.

BLITZER: Don't judge this format as a disrespectful "Johnny Come Lately." Reality TV has been around for decades. Even before MTV's "The Real World" now in its 12th season. And the networks will keep those shows coming. From their standpoint, what's not to like about a popular show that's much popular to produce than a sitcom or drama. What of the critics?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The negative part of all these shows is they make us all into peeping Toms. But the point is, compared to the rest of the stuff on TV.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Joining me now from Los Angeles to talk about this TV trend is John Murray, creator of one of the first breakout reality shows, MTV's "The Real World."

John, thanks for joining us. Are you concerned about what you helped create has now run amuck?

JON MURRAY, BUNIM-MURRAY PRODUCTIONS: No. I think most of it's a lot of fun and obviously the audience is enjoying these shows.

BLITZER: What about the critics who say this is really degrading the entire culture that we have here in the United States?

MURRAY: Well, I don't know if you can say all of reality programming does that. I think you have to look at each show unto itself. It's hard to make blanket judgments. But, you know, critics have been harsh on the rest of the television landscape, too. So, not surprising that they have a problem with this.

BLITZER: How much further can they go in these shows on the broadcast networks given some of the standards they have to at least try to uphold?

MURRAY: Well, I mean, I think you're sort of seeing as far as they're going to go. I think probably liability issues are probably an insurance issues are more important than the standards issues. It's how far will your insurance company let you go and how far will your lawyer let you go.

BLITZER: Have you been surprised at the success of the program "The Real World" that you created?

MURRAY: Well "The Real World" I am surprised, at least I was initially, at how the public at least the MTV audience came to love it and the ratings of our show have gone up every season and we're currently enjoying our highest ratings ever with "The Real World Vegas." I think that's little different because that's a show where basically, we're holding a mirror to the age group that's watching the show and documenting a group of young people's lives and putting it into 22 minute episodes. And those young people's lives over the last 13 years have changed and in some ways they're very similar.

BLITZER: You have a deal I'm told with a production company to start a new reality show. I take it with NBC, a program called "Starting Over."

What is that all about?

MURRAY: Yes. We have a deal with nbc to do a syndicated show called "Starting Over." It's going to give women a chance to start over. Maybe choices they're not happy with or maybe they're 40 years old and the man they were involved with left them and some how gone off with the money. We're going to give women a chance to live together, have the benefits of a life coach and work with them to start over their lives and the viewers will get to watch and hopefully some of the women who are watching will be inspired by what these women are doing.

BLITZER: Nothing wrong with that. "Starting Over." A lot of us would like to start over at some point in our lives.

Jon Murray, thank you very much. Good luck to you.

MURRAY: Thank you.

She's perhaps the most visible face of weight loss and weight gain, but is Oprah's health plan the right way for you to shed pounds? We'll talk to the man in charge of her fitness program, Bob Greene, live when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: She's arguably America's most famous dieter, and Oprah Winfrey has done it once again. She recently told viewers of her top- rated talk show she lost 33 pounds after tipping the scales at, get this, 200 plus. She credits her personal trainer Bob Greene. His latest book on fitness is called "Get With the Program." Bob Greene joins us now live from New York. Bob, we don't have a lot of time, but I want you to give our viewers the most important advice you've given Oprah to try to lose those pounds, because a lot of us have gone through that kind of up and down weight problem.

BOB GREENE, AUTHOR, "GET WITH THE PROGRAM": Well, you should give up on the gimmicks. They don't work. It really is what you put into your program is what you're going to get out of it. So it requires exercise and pushing away from the table a little sooner than you have been.

BLITZER: Common sense advice. Exercise. How much exercise is really necessary?

GREENE: Obviously, we're all blessed with a certain set of genetics and you have to model it after what works for you, but for most people at least 20 minutes five or six times a week.

BLITZER: Without giving any secrets away, Oprah's problem, which has been so well documented out there, a lot of us feel sorry for her because she's out in the public spotlight as she is. What's her problem? Why does she keep apparently go up and down, up and down?

GREENE: She's very public about using food for things other than her nutrition, which quite honestly most people fall into. If there's an emotional event in her life, she'll use food to comfort her. And she's worked very hard on that. She exercises each day and really has overcome a lot to stop using food for reasons other than just nutrition.

BLITZER: So it's not only an actual exercise and diet, there's a psychological almost aspect to this. You deal with that as well, don't you?

GREENE: That's actually the core of "Get With the Program," the emotional side to it, because, again, all of us at one time or another has used food for something other than its purpose. A stressful event, boredom, whether it's an emotional event in our lives. We use food to comfort ourselves. Or it's one of the most acceptable ways -- as a coping mechanism that we have. You can use alcohol, or drugs. It is in that category for many people.

BLITZER: I know you reminded me, we met with Oprah in Telluride many years ago. How's she doing now on this weight loss program, the exercise regimen you put her on?

GREENE: She's done great. Now, I had her sign a contract. That's a very powerful tool. Most people respond very well if they put what they're going to do in writing. So I had her do that. And she worked extremely hard the six weeks before the Emmys. And as you know, if you saw the Emmys, she looked great, and that was a result primarily of those six weeks.

BLITZER: She looked fabulous at the Emmys. We love Oprah. And we love your new book. Good practical advice. It's called "Get With the Program." I'm going to get with the program myself.

GREENE: All right, Wolf. We'll see you.

BLITZER: Let's see if that helps. I'll do my best. Bob Greene, thanks very much.

Time's running out for your turn to weigh in on our Web question of the day. Should the United States go to war against Iraq even if weapons inspectors say there is no smoking gun? We'll have the results immediately when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We want to go quickly to the Pentagon. Our correspondent Barbara Starr is standing by with some breaking news. Barbara, tell our viewers.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, a very controversial issue has emerged here. CNN has learned that for the first time the U.S. military and the intelligence community in the last two days have began a surreptitious e-mail campaign inside Iraq. They are sending disguised e-mails to key Iraqi leaders urging them to give up, to dissent and defect from Saddam Hussein. The key issue here is these e-mails from the military and the intelligence community here in the United States have disguised return addresses. The U.S. is hoping that the Iraqis don't realize where they're coming from.

We have learned about this operation in the last several hours. Originally, senior Bush administration officials had asked us not to report it. They now have agreed that we can -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, we'll be following the story. Good work, Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.

Here's the results of our Web question of the day. Should the United States go to war against Iraq even if weapons inspectors say there is no smoking gun? Look at this -- 20 percent of you say yes, 80 percent, 80 percent of you say no. This is not a scientific poll.

That's all the time we have today. Please join me again Monday as well as Sunday on "LATE EDITION," the last word in Sunday talk. Among my guests Sunday, the former secretary of state, Henry Kissinger. That's all the time we have. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" is standing by.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Police Turn to Sonar in Search for Pregnant Woman>