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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

U.S. Tests Massive Bomb; Black Hawk Crashes During Training

Aired March 11, 2003 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, HOST: The Pentagon is about to release new videotape of a massive bomb test conducted today in Florida by the U.S. Air Force. We'll show you that videotape as soon as we get it. We're standing by for it.
Also, Black Hawk down. We're following a developing story on a U.S. Army chopper, a chopper that crashed with U.S. troops aboard. We'll have details.

Plus, the Unite Nations Security Council is in session right now. Non-Security Council members are debating the question of war with Iraq. Some are lining up with the U.S., but many others are totally opposed to war. We're watching what's going on; we'll have live coverage.

It all starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHOWDOWN: IRAQ. Super bomb: ten tons put to the test in Florida. Will it shock Iraqi troops into surrendering?

Who blinks first? A badly divided U.N. Security Council in session right now. Can it reach an agreement?

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: And I think attempts are being made...

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: ... room for a little more diplomacy, but not a lot of time to do it.

BLITZER: More U.S. troops on land and sea.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: If the president makes a decision to do so, they stand ready to disarm Iraq.

BLITZER: Another carrier ready for the worst, but this one's in the Pacific.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody comes out of North Korea or any place over here and makes a bad choice, then things can go hot really fast.

BLITZER: We're on board the USS Carl Vinson.

And sleeper cells in American cities? We're following al Qaeda's money trail.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

It's Tuesday, March 11, 2003. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Here are the latest developments we're following this hour in the showdown with Iraq.

The United States Air Force has dropped a massive 21,000 pound bomb on a Florida test range today. We're standing by for the first pictures. We expect to get those pictures any moment now from the Pentagon. We'll bring them to you when -- once we get them.

The bomb may be used in a war against Iraq, but there's also hope that the very thought of all that firepower will put added pressure on the Iraqi military to surrender.

The Unite Nations today grounded the American U-2 spy planes which had been flying missions for the weapons inspectors. This after Baghdad complained that having two of the planes in the air simultaneously was a hostile action. The Pentagon says there was no direct confrontation.

Push may be coming to shove at the Unite Nations. The Security Council is meeting right now. Facing veto threats from both France and Russia, the United States and Britain are offering to stretch a deadline for Iraq to disarm, but not by very much.

We have correspondents covering all of these late breaking developments in the showdown with Iraq.

We begin with a huge show of force that actually shook parts of the Florida Panhandle. Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, is standing by with details -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, shortly we expect the Pentagon to release the video that shows the test of this ten-ton bomb. The video shows the bomb as it's dropped from an MC-130 and lands on a test range at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, creating a huge cloud and a large explosion. Needless to say, in Pensacola today, the earth moved.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE, (voice-over): The MOAB carries 18,000 pounds of high explosives. And on impact creates a 10,000-foot high mushroom-like cloud that looks and feels like a nuclear weapon.

The new bomb is an upgrade of the Vietnam era Daisy Cutter, a 15,000-pound bomb originally designed to clear vegetation and create an instant landing zone for helicopters. More recently it was used to kill and demoralize al Qaeda and Taliban fighters in Afghanistan.

Even if the MOAB is never used in Iraq, the Pentagon admits it could still pack a psychological wallop.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The goal is to have the capabilities of the coalition so clear and so obvious that there's an enormous disincentive for the Iraqi military to fight.

MCINTYRE: MOAB is short for Massive Ordnance Air Blast, but it's picked up the nickname "Mother of All Bombs."

At 21,000 pounds total weight, it's too big to be carried by most planes. So for now it can only be dropped by a modified C-130. And unlike its predecessor, which was dropped by parachute, the new bomb has a state of the art satellite guidance system.

It's technically not ready for combat, but like the Predators, armed with Hellfire missiles, it could be pressed into service before it's fully tested.

MYERS: Anything we have in the arsenal, anything that's in almost any stage of development could be used. We did that in Desert Storm. We could do that with the capabilities here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: One practical limitation to the massive air burst bomb is it can't really be used in any urban areas because of the U.S. goal to minimize civilian casualties.

But if, for instance, a Republican Guard unit were caught isolated in the desert, it could be obliterated with a single bomb to send an example to the rest of the Iraqi military -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie, what about this Black Hawk that crashed at Fort Drum in upstate New York? What is the Pentagon saying about this accident?

MCINTYRE: The latest we know is it was part of a three-ship formation, three helicopter ship formation. It went down in a routine training accident. Nine soldiers were on board. The crash site has been located.

Some people have been seen walking around the crash site but it's unclear if those are soldiers who came from the training range or occupants of they were occupants of the aircraft. At this point, the status of the nine on board is unknown -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. We'll continue to follow that story on the Black Hawk that just crashed. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks very much.

And this side note to that huge bomb that's called the MOAB. MOAB formally stands for Massive Ordnance Air Blast. Informally Pentagon officials say MOAB stands for Mother of All Bombs. But there may also be a biblical connection.

MOAB, as many of you know, was often mentioned in the Old Testament. It was a nation state that bordered ancient Israel. In Isaiah, Chapter 15, for example, there is this reference to MOAB, "In their streets they shall gird themselves with sack cloth. On the top of their houses and in their streets everyone shall howl, weeping abundantly." There's no word from Pentagon officials whether this is all a coincidence or not.

And as Jamie McIntyre just reported, an army spokesman says at least one person has survived the crash of a Black Hawk helicopter at Ft. Drum in upstate New York.

It went down with nine people on board during a training mission this afternoon. Crews spotted the wreckage about 90 minutes later. And a rescue operation is under way.

Joining us now from Tucson, Arizona, with more, CNN military analyst, retired air force Major General Don Shepperd. He's on the phone with us.

This is an accident. These accidents, of course, happen, all the time, don't they general?

GEN. DON SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They really do, Wolf. We train hard, we train for war hard. And sometimes training is even more difficult than war. It happens on a regular basis.

We don't have a whole lot of information other than it's a U-860, the primary utility aircraft that for the division replaced the old Vietnam era Huey. It normally carries a crew of three and can carry a squad of 11.

Reportedly, early 15 on board, but as we know now, nine are on board. And at least one survivor has been reported.

The other report that we've heard is that the local hospitals up there have been asked to prepare for injured people. So the good news is there are no reports of fire or explosions from anybody. That's normally what causes the worst injuries.

BLITZER; While I have you, General Shepperd, this MOAB, this huge bomb blast, this test that occurred at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida today, is this bomb going to be ready for action if there is a Gulf War II?

SHEPPERD: Wolf, it's not ready in the sense that we normally like to complete testing before we employ something. We test it not only to see if it goes off but to make sure that the carriage mechanisms don't hang up, that it doesn't damage an airplane, that it doesn't go off prematurely underneath the aircraft. All of those things can go wrong.

But we have a record of when we have things available, if they're needed in a war, rushing them in in early stages of development. We did it with the Predator in Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Hellfire attached to it in Afghanistan. We also did it with the Global Hawk and we did it with the Penetrater bomb in the Gulf War.

So there is a possibility that this can be used if it's needed over there by General Franks.

BLITZER: All right. General Shepperd, thanks very much.

And this note to our viewers. We're standing by. The Department of Defense here in Washington expected to release videotape of this testing that occurred earlier this afternoon. We're standing by for that videotape. We'll show it to our viewers as soon as it comes in.

And as the United States readies for the possibility of war, it's waging a bitter battle for international support. And there's not much room for compromise on either side.

Let's go live to our senior White House correspondent John King -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, for the second day in a row, no public events from President Bush. He's in the Oval Office most of the day. One call this morning to an undecided member of the Security Council. More calls planned this evening.

But White House officials are saying the White House will insist on a vote of the Security Council this week, win or lose.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over) Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's presence for a morning meeting on the war plans underscored the White House message.

FLEISCHER: The president thinks there's a little room for a little more diplomacy, but not much time. Any suggestion of 30 days, 45 days is a nonstarter.

KING: The White House wants a Security Council vote this week and is willing to push its March 17 deadline for Iraq to fully disarm back only a few days, a week at the most.

The president once again worked the phones looking for votes. Placing a morning call to the president of Angola, one of the swing votes on the Security Council.

Mr. Bush also compared notes with two key European allies, prime ministers Aznar of Spain and Berlusconi of Italy.

France's promise to veto any resolution clearing the way for war drew a blunt White House response.

FLEISCHER: It is too risky to have a laissez-faire attitude about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction. This is a real problem, because the resolutions at the Unite Nations called for immediate and full disarmament.

KING: Congress gave its blessing to war in Iraq five months ago, but some leading democrats now say Mr. Bush is in too much of a rush.

SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: In many corners of the world, the United States is seen as manufacturing a crisis in Iraq, not responding to one. KING: The U.S. Deployment now tops 225,000 troops. And sources tell CNN that CIA director George Tenet's daily briefing to the president now includes an assessment of the risk that U.S. forces and embassies in the region will come under terrorist attack in the event of war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: White House officials say the best hope now might be a moral victory of sorts, a council majority in support of the new resolution only then to have it die because of a French veto.

And these officials also say Mr. Bush has little patience left for the Unite Nations and is engaged in this intense last minute diplomacy mostly because it is so vital to his chief ally, the British Prime Minister Tony Blair -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Which raises the question, are they on the same page precisely, Tony Blair and George W. Bush? Or are there differences in their positions?

KING: Well, there have been some indications from British diplomats that they would like to be able to extend the deadline further than the White House would extend it.

The deadline is now March 17. White House officials say three or four days, perhaps a week if that would get you the votes. Some indications the British would like to wait a little longer.

The question even came up at the Pentagon briefing today, Wolf, the defense secretary was asked would the United States be prepared to go to war without great Britain if Tony Blair feels under such pressure that he cannot commit the British troops if there is no second U.N. resolution?

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said he would take that as it comes, that the plans would be made and that he did not have a final answer or final commitment yet from the British government -- Wolf.

BLITZER: John King at the White House. Thanks, John, very much.

Let's go to the Unite Nations now, where the United States and Britain have their backs up against a wall in the Security Council. The hot debate over Iraq and war continues at this hour.

You're looking at live pictures from the Unite Nations Security Council. Right now the ambassador from Australia is speaking. He's sitting next to Mohammed Al Douri, the Iraqi representative to the Unite Nations.

Let's go live to our U.N. correspondent, Richard Roth.

Richard, this meeting is somewhat symbolic but it could have practical impact, as well.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it could help, perhaps, help the undecided make up their minds, though they heard these type of speech sessions before.

The Australian ambassador, John Dowd, you referred to, really the first speaker who will not surprisingly take the side of the U.S. in this Iraq crisis. The rest, whether it was Malaysia or South Africa, think the inspectors are doing a fine job and are earning more and more cooperation from Iraq.

First speaker, though, on the program, Iraq's ambassador, Mohamed Al Douri, who offered this reason for possible U.S. attack on his country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED AL DOURI, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): Their objective is to lay their hands on our oil, to control the region, to redraw its borders in order to ensure the vital interests of the United States of America for a long period to come. This is a new, direct colonization of the region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Kuwait's ambassador said his people could have lived a better life if the leadership in Iraq had acted differently.

Australia's ambassador, John Dowd, who is now speaking, said no one, including the U.N. weapons inspectors, can say that Iraq has fully cooperated on disarmament -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Richard Roth at the Unite Nations. We'll be standing by together with Richard. We'll be watching what's unfolding right now during this hour at the U.N. Security Council. We'll be having live coverage from time to time, as well.

Richard, thanks very much.

There are also developments from three key members involved in the debate on a possible war with Iraq. We have reports from CNN's Christiane Amanpour in London, Jim Bitterman in Paris, and from Pakistan, our Islamabad bureau chief, Ash-Har Quraishi.

Let's begin with Christiane.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. And now a whiff of desperation emanating from Downing Street.

(voice-over) Prime Minister Tony Blair under increasing pressure. Poll numbers are plummeting. Only 19 percent of the British public, according to a new poll released Tuesday, say that they would accept and back a war that is not supported by a second U.N. resolution.

(on camera) So the prime minister trying to pull out all the stops, sending his chief minister for these affairs to Africa to try to lobby those wavering African countries on the Security Council. Trying to rewrite and amend a Security Council resolution to get as much support as he can, even though he knows that it may be vetoed.

People now saying even those allies who support his stance on possible war with Iraq -- people saying that his position may cost him his leadership down the line if he doesn't get that second resolution.

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Jim Bitterman in Paris, where President Jacques Chirac was getting congratulations throughout the day today on his speech last night, (voice-over) where he said that no matter what the situation, France would vote no on the U.N. Security Council resolution that was before the council yesterday.

In the national assembly today, France's parliament, the prime minister, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, said that his boss deserved congratulations for his courageous stand. And he said that no further resolution was necessary because of Resolution 1441 already establishing the routine for inspections in Iraq, that those inspections are working and no further resolution is required.

(on camera) Now Jacques Chirac was talking about a resolution which was on the table yesterday when he said no. There's a possibility that there may be some room for negotiation, because the resolution on the table yesterday seems to have changed today.

People around Tony Blair in Great Britain have said that perhaps a new resolution, or a new version of the resolution, would be introduced to the Security Council, which would allow for a longer timetable than March 17, the date established in the first resolution. And perhaps putting in some benchmarks for Iraqi compliance with weapons inspections.

If that were to be the case, the French might find something to negotiate about.

ASH-HAR QURAISHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Ash-Har Quraishi in Islamabad.

Pakistan's prime minister, Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali, addressed the nation this evening, (voice-over) laying out his government's stance on the issue of Iraq, putting it very simply that a war in Iraq would not be in the best interests of the nation of Pakistan.

He's saying that they will not support a war in Iraq, although the prime minister did not get into the details as to whether or not they would vote for -- whether or not they would abstain or go for a no vote on any possible resolution asking for possible military action to take place in Iraq.

(on camera) Now our sources here in Pakistan tell us that he met with his cabinet. He also met with the pro-government party today. Both those bodies recommending to the prime minister that they vote for an abstention in any Security Council resolution that asks for military action.

But right now, the government's saying that it is not going to vote for anything that promotes war in Pakistan. What exactly that vote is, unclear. That's the view from Pakistan. Wolf, back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Ash-Har Quraishi and all of our correspondents.

Meanwhile, the Unite Nations secretary-general, Kofi Annan, making one of his strongest appeals to avoid an Iraq war if at all possible, says it's the job of the U.N. Security Council to maintain international peace and security.

In an article in today's "Wall Street Journal," Annan says people all over the world want the Iraqi crisis resolved peacefully.

And it also says, and I'm quoting, "The Unite Nations, founded to 'save succeeding generations from the scourge of war,' has a duty to search for a peaceful solution until the last possible moment."

Now to Baghdad. Flights of Unite Nations U-2 surveillance planes over Iraq are on hold right now after two of the aircraft were ordered back to base after being challenged by Iraqi war planes.

On a related issue, Iraq for the first time shed some light on one of its drone aircraft that the United States says is another example of Iraqi deception. Our senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, is in Baghdad, and he has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: According to the U.N. spokesmen in Baghdad, the U.N.'s letter to Iraqi officials requesting the U-2 over flight may have been ambiguous. He says that there may have been sentences in the letter that referred to the U-2 in the singular form, and there may have been sentences that referred to it in the plural form.

Certainly what happened, according to Iraqi officials, they say two U-2s flew into their airspace, one at 9:40 in the morning flying from Kuwait, one at 10:00 a.m., 20 minutes later, flying into their airspace from Saudi Arabia.

They say immediately they called the U.N. on their hot line and waited for a response from the U.N. Iraqi officials say the U.N. then contacted them back, apologizing for the mistake.

GEN. HUSSAM AMIN, NATIONAL MONITORING DIRECTORATE: He told me that this airplane is a Unite Nations airplane. It belongs to the UNMOVIC, also. But a mistake took place from their side, from UNMOVIC.

The notification was talking about one U-2 airplane from Kuwaiti/Iraqi border. And this airplane came from the Saudi/Iraqi border. And he apologized and he promised that this mistake will not take place again. ROBERTSON: So far, Iraqi officials seem to accept the U.N.'s apology of the misunderstanding. Iraqi officials also say that they did not fly any hostile actions with their aircraft following the U- 2's flight into Iraq.

Also, Iraqi spokesmen speaking out for the first time about a drone. They say this RPV, with a wingspan of 7.45 meters, an RPV that the U.N. says they need to do more research into.

Iraqi officials say that this particular RPV is not designed to carry chemical or biological weapons. They say it can only fly 120 kilometers in circles with a radius of about eight kilometers. That is well inside of the U.N. limitations of 150 kilometers.

They also say that this particular RPV has a small engine, is only designed to carry a payload of 20 kilograms. That payload, they say, is designed for aerial surveillance, for video camera surveillance.

So this is the first time Iraqi officials have talked in detail about this particular RPV that the U.N. says it is still investigating.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And the RPV that Nic Robertson is referring to stands for Remotely Piloted Vehicle, or as they say, one of those drones.

Here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of the day is this: "Does the U.S. need another U.N. Security Council resolution to justify an attack on Iraq?" We'll have the results later in this broadcast. Please vote at CNN.com/Wolf.

While you're there, I'd like to hear from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily online column: CNN.com/Wolf.

The Unite Nations Security Council is debating the possible war with Iraq even as we speak, Canada's ambassador to the Unite Nations. You're looking at live pictures from inside the Security Council. We'll go there for live coverage throughout this hour.

We'll also continue to monitor all the late breaking developments including this: should the U.S. impose democracy on Iraq by force? And what if the next leader is worse? Worse than Saddam Hussein? We'll ask the last U.S. official to have met publicly with Saddam Hussein when we come back.

Plus war of wills: the "USS Carl Vinson" on patrol off the Korean Peninsula. We'll take you on board.

And the al Qaeda terror trail: are there cells operating right here in U.S. cities? Find out what the U.S. government has learned from the arrest of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The Pentagon is about to release new videotape of a massive bomb test conducted earlier today by the U.S. Air Force. We'll show you that video as soon as we get it.

That story, other late breaking developments. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're looking at live pictures. Canada's ambassador to the Unite Nations saying Iraq should be given another three weeks. Three weeks to comply with U.N. Security Council resolutions, to come clean with all of its weapons of mass destruction.

Canada's ambassador speaking at a meeting, an open meeting of the U.N. Security Council right now. Non-Security Council members weighing in on the showdown with Iraq. We'll continue to have live coverage.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume diplomacy fails and the United States does indeed go to war against Iraq and win, will Saddam Hussein fight to the death? Will Baghdad be destroyed by house-to- house fighting? Will a defeated Iraqi people and military work with or against a U.S. occupation force?

For some insight, let's turn to Joe Wilson. He's the former deputy U.S. ambassador in Iraq, the last U.S. official to have met with Saddam Hussein, just before the last Gulf War.

Let's go through some of those questions. Will Saddam Hussein fight to the death or try to escape with his life?

JOE WILSON, FORMER DEPUTY U.S. AMBASSADOR IN IRAQ: Well, I think he'll do both. I think ultimately he will fight in Baghdad till the bitter end. When a lot of other people have died around him, he may well try and escape and pull an Osama bin Laden on us.

He is above all, a survivalist. And he has had 30 years to prepare his bolt-hole for getting out. He would prefer to survive than die. If he dies, you can assume he's go down in his homeland as a martyr. But I suspect there may well be an option for him to try and slip out the back door in the 11th hour.

BLITZER: How fiercely, based on what you know, and you spent years living in Iraq in the old time, how fiercely will Iraqi military fight for this guy?

WILSON: Well, the estimates are that he may have as many as 80,000 shooters, his Republican Guard and those closest to him, whose own destiny is linked to him. Now they may fight fiercely in Baghdad if that's a stand they care to make.

BLITZER: That means there could be very, very bloody urban warfare on the streets of Baghdad, assuming U.S. troops move into Baghdad.

WILSON: I think our military planners are expecting that, which is why they've come up with the "shock and awe" strategy, which is basically to make it so painful for the Iraqis from the first night that they may well either be killed or opt to not to fight, because they're just so scared of what they're being hit with.

BLITZER: The pictures that we're standing by waiting for the Pentagon showing this bomb blast this test of this new 22,000-pound bomb, the MOAB, will that have an impact, assuming it's showed broadly around the world, on Iraqi military personnel?

WILSON: Well, you know, in the run-up to the Gulf War we did a videotape that we actually got distributed into the region, but it was too late to have any impact because you couldn't get it to people and get it on their VCRs in a timely enough fashion to see it.

I don't know the extent to which the generals, the operational commanders, have access to CNN or the other networks that might be showing this.

BLITZER: Because I remember the buildup to the first Gulf War, the Pentagon unveiled at that time this 5,000-pound Daisy Cutter bomb that they thought would have a dramatic impact on the Iraqi military.

WILSON: The trouble is nobody knew about it in Iraq. The tape that we did was distributed too late to actually have any impact.

BLITZER: Based on what you know about the Iraqi society, more than 20 million people, the Kurds in the north, the Shiites in the south, the Sunnis sort of in the middle every place else, is there a potential for this whole country to crumble along the lines of Yugoslavia, or will they stick together in a post-war era?

WILSON: Well, I think first and foremost during the occupation phase they may well stick together because they have a common occupier, the United States. And once the -- once the joy of having been liberated from Iraq wears off and they're trying to get a hold of their country again, they may want to drive the occupier out, as they have done historically when they've been occupied.

After that I think that there will be a lot of tension. There will be a lot of clan, tribal and confessional tension between the various groups that occupy the country known as Iraq.

BLITZER: It's going to be a potentially messy situation, Joe Wilson.

WILSON: I think very, very messy. We certainly ought to count on this being messy.

BLITZER: I assume that the Pentagon planners that work on this have to worry about that worst case scenario.

Thanks very much for joining us.

WILSON: My pleasure, Wolf.

BLITZER: And speaking of the Pentagon, we're standing by, awaiting the release of videotape from the Pentagon on this new 22,000-pound bomb, the so-called MOAB that was tested today at Eglin Air Force base in Florida. We'll bring that to you as soon as that videotape comes in.

Also, are al Qaeda sleeper cells in the United States? The latest intelligence reports coming into us from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

And is the White House making a critical mistake by pushing for war without all allied support? That debate still to come.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're looking at live pictures from the United Nations Security Council. The representative from Switzerland now speaking. We're waiting for the representative from Turkey. He should be speaking very, very soon.

Behind the representative from Switzerland, sitting, listening very carefully, Mohamed Al Douri, the Iraqi ambassador to the United Nations.

We're monitoring what's unfolding right now at the Security Council. We'll be checking back when developments warrant.

Meanwhile, the recent capture of a top al Qaeda leader has U.S. investigators chasing down all sorts of new leads. But as CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena reports, it has not been easy going.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The intelligence coup is turning into a massive and often frustrating investigation. Many phone numbers and addresses found with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed are outdated, officials say. And some individuals subsequently tracked down have no known terror connections. Still, the exercise is vital, as finding any terror cells in the United States remains a top priority.

JOHN PARACHINI, RAND CORP. TERROR EXPERT: Each piece will help us track down another part of the overall picture. I think that's very important. And some of the evidence will help us immediately and other parts of testified won't become clearest to its meaning for months.

ARENA: Officials say recent evidence shows al Qaeda operatives transferred money to the U.S. even after the September 11 attacks. And other evidence has led to new investigations in about a dozen U.S. cities, including New York. Dozens of individuals remain under surveillance as a result of the Mohammed arrest, not all of them previously known to law enforcement. Others have yet to be located.

MATT LEVITT, FORMER FBI OFFICIAL: Not every individual whose phone number appears, for example, on Khalid Shaikh's phone is going to have the sense to turn off his cell phone. Not every individual whose name appears in the laptop knows that his name appears in the laptop.

ARENA (on camera): So far, sources say, the haul of information from Pakistan has not led to any terror cells in the United States nor does it point to any plans for an imminent attack. But officials warn the situation is ever changing.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Two important court rulings regarding other detainees in U.S. custody. A federal appeals court has upheld a decision saying the 600 plus detainees at the Guantanamo naval base in Cuba have no right to hearings in U.S. courts. And a federal judge in New York is ordering the government to let dirty bomb suspect, Jose Padilla, see his lawyers. Padilla, an American citizen, had been held without charges since May.

The U.S. debating U.S. action -- the U.N., excuse me, debating U.S. action right now on Iraq. That's happening. We'll bring you the latest developments throughout this hour. Plus, this so-called mother of all bombs or MOAB, as the U.S. military is calling it, we go live to the Florida Panhandle where one was detonated earlier today. We're expecting the first pictures of that test to be released by the Department of Defense. That's coming up. You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're standing by. We're still awaiting pictures from the Pentagon on that new, awesome weapon, that 22,000-pound bomb, the MOAB that was test fired earlier today at the Eglin Air Force base in Florida. But let's turn to Miles O'Brien at the CNN Center in Atlanta. He's got some more background on this new bomb -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, yes, as a matter of fact, people who live in that area, the Florida Panhandle, say it sounded a lot like thunder when it was finally detonated. The mother of all bombs or more precisely, according to the acronyms that the Pentagon is using, Massive Ordnance Air Burst, 21,000 pounds, 10 tons, if you will, dropped from an MC-130 aircraft. That's because way too heavy to put on a bomb rack of many of the bombers that we have in the inventory. Precision-guided, meaning satellites were involved in bringing this particular weapon down to the ground and that is a key difference from its predecessor, the bomb we have called the Daisy Cutter.

Let's take a look at how the Daisy Cutter works. A dozen of them were dropped in Desert Storm in 1991. There's your C-130. They open up the back door, about 20,000 feet or so, out came the Daisy Cutter. You notice a parachute deploys here about. This was a dumb bomb, in other words, no precise guidance from either satellites or lasers. Down it went. It has its heritage back in Vietnam. It was used to clear landing spots for helicopters, clear mine fields out, sort of wipe out a swath of vegetation. And, of course, it could do a fair amount of damage to personnel; cause a tremendous number of casualties.

Now, let's talk a little bit about MOAB, which weighs about 7,000 pounds more. Same basic idea -- the C-130, the back door opens and out comes the MOAB. Now, shown here, you notice we have all these lines drawn. We're trying to depict here that it is being guided by satellites, GPS satellites, many miles above the earth, which allow it to go down to a very precise location. It detonates a little bit above the ground. Get a tremendous mushroom cloud effect. But we got to point out that just because it's a mushroom cloud that does not mean it's nuclear. As a matter of fact, it is not a nuclear. Is it a conventional weapon and it has a lot of explosive capability.

But it's worth pointing out the Hiroshima bomb was 15 kilotons, which is 15,000 tons. This one is 10 tons. So the Hiroshima bomb was about 1,500 more times explosive, so that puts it in perspective. This particular bomb is perhaps useful for clearing mines, but as the Pentagon admitted today, as much as anything else it has a tremendous psychological effect. And so, to a certain extent, Wolf, MOAB might have already done its job.

BLITZER: Miles O'Brien with important information on the MOAB, this new massive bomb. Thanks, Miles, very much.

Let's get a little bit more information now on this new bomb. Glenn Austin of the CNN affiliate, WKRG in Pensacola, Florida, is joining us live.

Glenn, what did people see and hear and feel when this super bomb exploded only a few hours ago?

GLENN AUSTIN, WKRG CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, a lot of people were wondering what's going to happen. The military for first time, as long as I can remember, that they announced that this bomb was actually going to be dropped and that it was going to make this big implosion and the ground was going to shake. So it actually depended on where you were, whether or not you -- first of all, you heard anything and even felt anything.

Now, Pensacola, we're 50 miles away. Behind me is a seismograph here at Pensacola Junior College. This thing right here records earthquakes all over the world. In fact, it is so sensitive that when the space shuttle Columbia broke up, they can show me here, it recorded the space shuttle actually breaking up. And that's how sensitive this thing is.

You know the MOAB bomb blows up above the surface. And when it does, you know, it's just like the shuttle that can be recorded. And this is proof that it does record things above the ground. But in this case, barely a ripple, only 50 miles away. You really can't see it from here. But we've been watching this all day when this thing happened. And it's just barely any kind of movement whatsoever here in Pensacola. Now, the closer you get over to Crestview, Walton Beach, people heard a thunder, a deep thunder. And only a very few people may have felt something on the ground. But, of course, the military, first of all, they said they were going to talk about it this afternoon from Eglin and then late this afternoon, they said they weren't going to talk about the bomb or the test results or anything of that nature. So again, here in the Gulf Coast the buildup all week long, here comes this big, massive bomb and unless you live very close to it you really didn't see or even feel it.

BLITZER: All right, very interesting. Glenn Austin of our affiliate WKRG in Pensacola. Thanks very much for that information.

Will the U.S. lose more than it gains in a war with Iraq? A presidential hopeful versus a Gulf War Veteran Congressman, Dennis Kucinich and Congressman Steven Buyer square off in a debate. But first, let's look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Another threat? Iranian officials say their country's first nuclear power plant is 70 percent complete and nuclear fuel is expected to arrive from Russia in May. Iran says the plant will be used to produce electricity. But the United States fears it could be used to make a bomb.

Courting controversy. The world has its first permanent war crimes court. Eighteen judges were sworn in during a ceremony in The Hague. The International Criminal Court was established by a 1998 treaty, but the United States has withdrawn its support citing fears Americans will face politically motivated prosecutions.

West Bank violence. Israeli troops battle Palestinian gunmen in Hebron. Reports say one Israeli and one Palestinian died.

No deal. Talks aimed at reuniting the Greek and Turkish sections of Cyprus have collapsed. Negotiators had hoped to unify the Mediterranean island before it joins the European Union next year.

Tibet Regret. Tibetans living in India held a ceremony to protest continued Chinese control of their homeland. The gathering march of a 44th anniversary of an unsuccessful uprising against Chinese rule. The Dalai Lama, who led the uprising, today, criticized China's human rights policy, but he praised Beijing for releasing some political prisoners.

You snooze, you lose. Rio de Janeiro's lengthy carnival season finally is over and party-goers ended things appropriately enough by going to bed. Bed races are the final carnival event. A rolling bed can be a hard thing to control, so ironically, if you want to win the bed race, it's best to stay alert. And that's our look around the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: While the showdown with Iraq has been playing out at the United Nations, the U.S. Congress itself has been relatively silent on the issue, but not necessarily individual members. I'm joined now by two outspoken members of the U.S. House, Representative Dennis Kucinich, Democrat of Ohio. He's also a Democratic presidential hopeful. And Representative Steve Buyer, Republican of Indiana.

Thanks to both of you for joining us. If the U.S. were to go to war against Iraq without another formal U.N. Security Council resolution, what's wrong with that?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Well, we're squandering the support of the world community we had right after 9/11. Everyone wanted to help the United States in its combat against terrorism. And what's happening is that we have an opportunity here to lead the world towards a peaceful resolution or we have an opportunity to force the world towards a war. I'm hopeful that the United States will take up the responsibility we have for a peaceful resolution.

BLITZER: But you don't think the U.S. should let the U.N. Security Council decide what is in America's best national security interests?

KUCINICH: Well, it's clear that the U.N. Charter permits a nation to defend itself. But Iraq has not attacked the United States and no one's maintaining that it has. No one's maintaining Iraq has the capacity to strike at this country, so I think we have to follow the U.N. Charter and lead towards a peaceful resolution. We may still be able to do that.

BLITZER: Congressman Buyer, he says Iraq represents no real, serious threat to the United States.

REP. STEVE BUYER (R), INDIANA: Well, he's entitled to his opinion. I think the United States has a multiple front happening here. We are engaged in many countries around the world in the war on terrorism and we have this problem called Saddam Hussein that dates back well over 12 years. And we have 18 U.N. resolutions. Resolution 1441 was supposed to be, the -- quote -- "the final resolution for voluntary, complete and full disarmament." And that has not occurred.

BLITZER: But what's the imminent threat to the U.S. right now that forces the president within days to decide whether or not to go to war?

BUYER: The imminent threat is really about regional stability. It's also -- it is how it works with the war on terrorism, when you have someone like a Saddam Hussein who's worked cooperatively with terrorist organizations, placing these weapons of mass destruction, teaching them how to utilize biological or chemical munitions is a threat to the United States and their allies.

BLITZER: Congressman Kucinich?

KUCINICH: Well, the administration has not made its case in Iraq. They have not been able to demonstrate that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, with al Qaeda's role in 9/11, with the anthrax attack on this country. They've not been able...

BLITZER: But the Iraqis haven't accounted for a lot of weapons of mass destruction. The U.N. itself says that.

KUCINICH: Well, but we have the inspectors there to do the job and that's the whole idea. The inspections are continuing. And the inspections can work if we let them work. They worked over a period of seven years. The inspectors then said that they think they found everything except that which may have been destroyed by bombing. We need to continue our efforts towards inspection. This is not -- war is not necessary.

BLITZER: All right, Congressman Buyer.

BUYER: There are three cases where there have been voluntary disarmament. South Africa, Tajikistan, and Ukraine. And this has to be top-down driven. It is not. Iraq is playing their games of cheat and retreat, concealment. There's nothing...

BLITZER: But what I think Congressman Kucinich and his supporters are suggesting is the U.S. contained the Soviet Union during the Cold War for decades without going to war, why not simply contain the Iraqis right now?

BUYER: Well, containment has not worked. That's part of the problem. You know there is $3 billion in illegal oil proceeds and a lot of the contracting right now -- Saddam Hussein is giving priority contracting to the French, to the Germans and the Russians, along with 70 other plus countries around the world. So containment for this tyrant is not working.

BLITZER: What about that, Congressman Kucinich?

KUCINICH: Well, containment did work with the Soviet Union.

BLITZER: But he's saying it is not working with Iraq.

KUCINICH: But let's look at containment. Our first efforts shouldn't be towards war here. We should try a peaceful resolution and we still can.

BLITZER: But they've tried for 12 years, they say.

KUCINICH: And the fact of the matter is we did contain successfully Saddam Hussein for 12 years. He did not engage in any activity when we were sitting on him with U.N. inspectors. And what I maintain is that this country can lead the world towards peaceful resolution. That would be a wonderful thing to do. Right now, at this very moment, we're at the most critical moment. Right now, people are in the United Nations talking about the direction this world is going to take. It's going to have enormous implications.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Please...

BUYER: No one is pro war. No one in this country is pro war. Peace is the consequence of freedom. That's what has to be said and everybody wants a peaceful resolution. If diplomacy can work, that's great. But the problem is this is a choice of Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER: But you're saying that the U.S. shouldn't even give it much more time. Some of the undecideds say 40 days, 35...

BUYER: No.

BLITZER: ... 40 days, 45 days.

BUYER: When you say 40 to 45 days, what that does is military -- operationally pushes it back one year.

BLITZER: He served in the Persian Gulf War, so from the military perspective, he speaks with some firsthand authority.

KUCINICH: But why -- I would say thank you for serving our country. And we should be concerned about those who are serving. We should support our troops. And I support our troops, but I think that the best way to support them is not to send them, not to put them in harm's way for a war, which is not necessary. See, the case hasn't been made that this war is necessary, that Iraq represents an imminent threat to our country. If Iraq or any nation represented an imminent threat to America, we would have to defend ourselves.

BLITZER: Congressman Buyer, I'm going to give you the last word. Go ahead.

BUYER: We cannot cower in the face of this threat.

BLITZER: In other words, what you're saying, if the U.S. were to back down now...

BUYER: I support the president in making these nations take a vote. And if they're unwilling to go, we have a responsibility as a superpower to provide the region with stability. And we're going to do that.

BLITZER: Well, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there. Congressman Buyer, thanks very much. Congressman Kucinich, thanks to you as well. This debate will continue. We hope to have both of you back.

KUCINICH: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Are U.S. warships sending a message to the North Koreans? CNN's Rebecca MacKinnon is on board.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REBECCA MACKINNON, CMM JAPAN BUREAU CHIEF: These F-18s flew bombing missions over Afghanistan after September 11, 2001, but here in northeast Asia, they're hoping they won't have to do anything more than just train.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We'll take you aboard the USS Carl Vinson when we return. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The Pentagon is sending sixth stealth warplanes to South Korea. Officials say the radar-evading F-117As are being deployed for annual exercises and not because of current tensions on the Korean peninsula. The USS Carl Vinson also has been dispatched to South Korea. CNN's Rebecca MacKinnon is on board.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACKINNON (voice-over): Fighter jets fly training mission, taking off and landing from the ship's deck day and night. Sailors practice on the guns. This nuclear powered aircraft carrier arrived in northeast Asia just days before North Korea held its second missile test in two weeks.

(on camera): Some of these F-18s flew bombing missions over Afghanistan after September 11, 2001, but here in northeast Asia they're hoping they won't have to do anything more than just train.

(voice-over): Pilots on the USS Carl Vinson say they've been studying a recent encounter between a U.S. spy plane and North Korean fighter jets.

CDR. JESSE KINGG "TUTT", PILOT: We look at North Korea and the operations that we may have to be called upon to do. And what we do is we tailor all of our training to fit any eventuality with that situation.

MACKINNON: Commanding officers hope to avoid any further escalation of tensions. But...

CAPT. DONALD QUINN, AIR WING COMMANDER: If somebody comes out of North Korea or anyplace over here and makes a bad choice, then things can go hot really fast.

MACKINNON: While near Japan, which is in range of North Korean missiles, the Vinson's whole battle group held a coordination exercise with Japanese naval self-defense ships. The floating universe of 5,000 people and 75 planes is now headed to Korea for a joint military exercise with South Korea's armed forces.

REAR ADM. EVAN CHANIK, CARRIER GROUP COMMANDER: Our message here in northeast Asia is really just one of commitment to our friends and allies out here. Are we ready for things that may occur in terms of if nations decide they want to do provocative acts? We're certainly ready for those type of things. That's part of our business.

MACKINNON: Hoping this display of readiness can help prevent a real fight. Rebecca MacKinnon, CNN, aboard the USS Carl Vinson in the Western Pacific.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Straight ahead, the results of our "Web Question of The Day." Does the U.S. need another U.N. Security Council resolution to justify an attack on Iraq? Log on to CNN.com/Wolf. We'll have the results immediately when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in on our of "Web Question of The Day." Take a look at this. Does the U.S. need another U.N. Security Council resolution to justify an attack on Iraq? Fifty-one percent of you so far say yes, 49 percent of you say no. Remember, this is not a scientific poll. Very evenly split, though, among the thousands of you who have voted so far.

That's all the time we have today. Please join me again tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. Eastern. Don't forget "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ" weekdays at noon Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" is up next.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Training>


Aired March 11, 2003 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: The Pentagon is about to release new videotape of a massive bomb test conducted today in Florida by the U.S. Air Force. We'll show you that videotape as soon as we get it. We're standing by for it.
Also, Black Hawk down. We're following a developing story on a U.S. Army chopper, a chopper that crashed with U.S. troops aboard. We'll have details.

Plus, the Unite Nations Security Council is in session right now. Non-Security Council members are debating the question of war with Iraq. Some are lining up with the U.S., but many others are totally opposed to war. We're watching what's going on; we'll have live coverage.

It all starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHOWDOWN: IRAQ. Super bomb: ten tons put to the test in Florida. Will it shock Iraqi troops into surrendering?

Who blinks first? A badly divided U.N. Security Council in session right now. Can it reach an agreement?

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECRETARY-GENERAL: And I think attempts are being made...

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN: ... room for a little more diplomacy, but not a lot of time to do it.

BLITZER: More U.S. troops on land and sea.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: If the president makes a decision to do so, they stand ready to disarm Iraq.

BLITZER: Another carrier ready for the worst, but this one's in the Pacific.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Somebody comes out of North Korea or any place over here and makes a bad choice, then things can go hot really fast.

BLITZER: We're on board the USS Carl Vinson.

And sleeper cells in American cities? We're following al Qaeda's money trail.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

It's Tuesday, March 11, 2003. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. Here are the latest developments we're following this hour in the showdown with Iraq.

The United States Air Force has dropped a massive 21,000 pound bomb on a Florida test range today. We're standing by for the first pictures. We expect to get those pictures any moment now from the Pentagon. We'll bring them to you when -- once we get them.

The bomb may be used in a war against Iraq, but there's also hope that the very thought of all that firepower will put added pressure on the Iraqi military to surrender.

The Unite Nations today grounded the American U-2 spy planes which had been flying missions for the weapons inspectors. This after Baghdad complained that having two of the planes in the air simultaneously was a hostile action. The Pentagon says there was no direct confrontation.

Push may be coming to shove at the Unite Nations. The Security Council is meeting right now. Facing veto threats from both France and Russia, the United States and Britain are offering to stretch a deadline for Iraq to disarm, but not by very much.

We have correspondents covering all of these late breaking developments in the showdown with Iraq.

We begin with a huge show of force that actually shook parts of the Florida Panhandle. Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, is standing by with details -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, shortly we expect the Pentagon to release the video that shows the test of this ten-ton bomb. The video shows the bomb as it's dropped from an MC-130 and lands on a test range at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, creating a huge cloud and a large explosion. Needless to say, in Pensacola today, the earth moved.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE, (voice-over): The MOAB carries 18,000 pounds of high explosives. And on impact creates a 10,000-foot high mushroom-like cloud that looks and feels like a nuclear weapon.

The new bomb is an upgrade of the Vietnam era Daisy Cutter, a 15,000-pound bomb originally designed to clear vegetation and create an instant landing zone for helicopters. More recently it was used to kill and demoralize al Qaeda and Taliban fighters in Afghanistan.

Even if the MOAB is never used in Iraq, the Pentagon admits it could still pack a psychological wallop.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The goal is to have the capabilities of the coalition so clear and so obvious that there's an enormous disincentive for the Iraqi military to fight.

MCINTYRE: MOAB is short for Massive Ordnance Air Blast, but it's picked up the nickname "Mother of All Bombs."

At 21,000 pounds total weight, it's too big to be carried by most planes. So for now it can only be dropped by a modified C-130. And unlike its predecessor, which was dropped by parachute, the new bomb has a state of the art satellite guidance system.

It's technically not ready for combat, but like the Predators, armed with Hellfire missiles, it could be pressed into service before it's fully tested.

MYERS: Anything we have in the arsenal, anything that's in almost any stage of development could be used. We did that in Desert Storm. We could do that with the capabilities here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: One practical limitation to the massive air burst bomb is it can't really be used in any urban areas because of the U.S. goal to minimize civilian casualties.

But if, for instance, a Republican Guard unit were caught isolated in the desert, it could be obliterated with a single bomb to send an example to the rest of the Iraqi military -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie, what about this Black Hawk that crashed at Fort Drum in upstate New York? What is the Pentagon saying about this accident?

MCINTYRE: The latest we know is it was part of a three-ship formation, three helicopter ship formation. It went down in a routine training accident. Nine soldiers were on board. The crash site has been located.

Some people have been seen walking around the crash site but it's unclear if those are soldiers who came from the training range or occupants of they were occupants of the aircraft. At this point, the status of the nine on board is unknown -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. We'll continue to follow that story on the Black Hawk that just crashed. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks very much.

And this side note to that huge bomb that's called the MOAB. MOAB formally stands for Massive Ordnance Air Blast. Informally Pentagon officials say MOAB stands for Mother of All Bombs. But there may also be a biblical connection.

MOAB, as many of you know, was often mentioned in the Old Testament. It was a nation state that bordered ancient Israel. In Isaiah, Chapter 15, for example, there is this reference to MOAB, "In their streets they shall gird themselves with sack cloth. On the top of their houses and in their streets everyone shall howl, weeping abundantly." There's no word from Pentagon officials whether this is all a coincidence or not.

And as Jamie McIntyre just reported, an army spokesman says at least one person has survived the crash of a Black Hawk helicopter at Ft. Drum in upstate New York.

It went down with nine people on board during a training mission this afternoon. Crews spotted the wreckage about 90 minutes later. And a rescue operation is under way.

Joining us now from Tucson, Arizona, with more, CNN military analyst, retired air force Major General Don Shepperd. He's on the phone with us.

This is an accident. These accidents, of course, happen, all the time, don't they general?

GEN. DON SHEPPERD, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They really do, Wolf. We train hard, we train for war hard. And sometimes training is even more difficult than war. It happens on a regular basis.

We don't have a whole lot of information other than it's a U-860, the primary utility aircraft that for the division replaced the old Vietnam era Huey. It normally carries a crew of three and can carry a squad of 11.

Reportedly, early 15 on board, but as we know now, nine are on board. And at least one survivor has been reported.

The other report that we've heard is that the local hospitals up there have been asked to prepare for injured people. So the good news is there are no reports of fire or explosions from anybody. That's normally what causes the worst injuries.

BLITZER; While I have you, General Shepperd, this MOAB, this huge bomb blast, this test that occurred at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida today, is this bomb going to be ready for action if there is a Gulf War II?

SHEPPERD: Wolf, it's not ready in the sense that we normally like to complete testing before we employ something. We test it not only to see if it goes off but to make sure that the carriage mechanisms don't hang up, that it doesn't damage an airplane, that it doesn't go off prematurely underneath the aircraft. All of those things can go wrong.

But we have a record of when we have things available, if they're needed in a war, rushing them in in early stages of development. We did it with the Predator in Bosnia, Kosovo, and the Hellfire attached to it in Afghanistan. We also did it with the Global Hawk and we did it with the Penetrater bomb in the Gulf War.

So there is a possibility that this can be used if it's needed over there by General Franks.

BLITZER: All right. General Shepperd, thanks very much.

And this note to our viewers. We're standing by. The Department of Defense here in Washington expected to release videotape of this testing that occurred earlier this afternoon. We're standing by for that videotape. We'll show it to our viewers as soon as it comes in.

And as the United States readies for the possibility of war, it's waging a bitter battle for international support. And there's not much room for compromise on either side.

Let's go live to our senior White House correspondent John King -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, for the second day in a row, no public events from President Bush. He's in the Oval Office most of the day. One call this morning to an undecided member of the Security Council. More calls planned this evening.

But White House officials are saying the White House will insist on a vote of the Security Council this week, win or lose.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over) Defense Secretary Rumsfeld's presence for a morning meeting on the war plans underscored the White House message.

FLEISCHER: The president thinks there's a little room for a little more diplomacy, but not much time. Any suggestion of 30 days, 45 days is a nonstarter.

KING: The White House wants a Security Council vote this week and is willing to push its March 17 deadline for Iraq to fully disarm back only a few days, a week at the most.

The president once again worked the phones looking for votes. Placing a morning call to the president of Angola, one of the swing votes on the Security Council.

Mr. Bush also compared notes with two key European allies, prime ministers Aznar of Spain and Berlusconi of Italy.

France's promise to veto any resolution clearing the way for war drew a blunt White House response.

FLEISCHER: It is too risky to have a laissez-faire attitude about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction. This is a real problem, because the resolutions at the Unite Nations called for immediate and full disarmament.

KING: Congress gave its blessing to war in Iraq five months ago, but some leading democrats now say Mr. Bush is in too much of a rush.

SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D), WEST VIRGINIA: In many corners of the world, the United States is seen as manufacturing a crisis in Iraq, not responding to one. KING: The U.S. Deployment now tops 225,000 troops. And sources tell CNN that CIA director George Tenet's daily briefing to the president now includes an assessment of the risk that U.S. forces and embassies in the region will come under terrorist attack in the event of war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: White House officials say the best hope now might be a moral victory of sorts, a council majority in support of the new resolution only then to have it die because of a French veto.

And these officials also say Mr. Bush has little patience left for the Unite Nations and is engaged in this intense last minute diplomacy mostly because it is so vital to his chief ally, the British Prime Minister Tony Blair -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Which raises the question, are they on the same page precisely, Tony Blair and George W. Bush? Or are there differences in their positions?

KING: Well, there have been some indications from British diplomats that they would like to be able to extend the deadline further than the White House would extend it.

The deadline is now March 17. White House officials say three or four days, perhaps a week if that would get you the votes. Some indications the British would like to wait a little longer.

The question even came up at the Pentagon briefing today, Wolf, the defense secretary was asked would the United States be prepared to go to war without great Britain if Tony Blair feels under such pressure that he cannot commit the British troops if there is no second U.N. resolution?

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said he would take that as it comes, that the plans would be made and that he did not have a final answer or final commitment yet from the British government -- Wolf.

BLITZER: John King at the White House. Thanks, John, very much.

Let's go to the Unite Nations now, where the United States and Britain have their backs up against a wall in the Security Council. The hot debate over Iraq and war continues at this hour.

You're looking at live pictures from the Unite Nations Security Council. Right now the ambassador from Australia is speaking. He's sitting next to Mohammed Al Douri, the Iraqi representative to the Unite Nations.

Let's go live to our U.N. correspondent, Richard Roth.

Richard, this meeting is somewhat symbolic but it could have practical impact, as well.

RICHARD ROTH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it could help, perhaps, help the undecided make up their minds, though they heard these type of speech sessions before.

The Australian ambassador, John Dowd, you referred to, really the first speaker who will not surprisingly take the side of the U.S. in this Iraq crisis. The rest, whether it was Malaysia or South Africa, think the inspectors are doing a fine job and are earning more and more cooperation from Iraq.

First speaker, though, on the program, Iraq's ambassador, Mohamed Al Douri, who offered this reason for possible U.S. attack on his country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MOHAMED AL DOURI, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N. (through translator): Their objective is to lay their hands on our oil, to control the region, to redraw its borders in order to ensure the vital interests of the United States of America for a long period to come. This is a new, direct colonization of the region.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROTH: Kuwait's ambassador said his people could have lived a better life if the leadership in Iraq had acted differently.

Australia's ambassador, John Dowd, who is now speaking, said no one, including the U.N. weapons inspectors, can say that Iraq has fully cooperated on disarmament -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Richard Roth at the Unite Nations. We'll be standing by together with Richard. We'll be watching what's unfolding right now during this hour at the U.N. Security Council. We'll be having live coverage from time to time, as well.

Richard, thanks very much.

There are also developments from three key members involved in the debate on a possible war with Iraq. We have reports from CNN's Christiane Amanpour in London, Jim Bitterman in Paris, and from Pakistan, our Islamabad bureau chief, Ash-Har Quraishi.

Let's begin with Christiane.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. And now a whiff of desperation emanating from Downing Street.

(voice-over) Prime Minister Tony Blair under increasing pressure. Poll numbers are plummeting. Only 19 percent of the British public, according to a new poll released Tuesday, say that they would accept and back a war that is not supported by a second U.N. resolution.

(on camera) So the prime minister trying to pull out all the stops, sending his chief minister for these affairs to Africa to try to lobby those wavering African countries on the Security Council. Trying to rewrite and amend a Security Council resolution to get as much support as he can, even though he knows that it may be vetoed.

People now saying even those allies who support his stance on possible war with Iraq -- people saying that his position may cost him his leadership down the line if he doesn't get that second resolution.

JIM BITTERMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Jim Bitterman in Paris, where President Jacques Chirac was getting congratulations throughout the day today on his speech last night, (voice-over) where he said that no matter what the situation, France would vote no on the U.N. Security Council resolution that was before the council yesterday.

In the national assembly today, France's parliament, the prime minister, Jean-Pierre Raffarin, said that his boss deserved congratulations for his courageous stand. And he said that no further resolution was necessary because of Resolution 1441 already establishing the routine for inspections in Iraq, that those inspections are working and no further resolution is required.

(on camera) Now Jacques Chirac was talking about a resolution which was on the table yesterday when he said no. There's a possibility that there may be some room for negotiation, because the resolution on the table yesterday seems to have changed today.

People around Tony Blair in Great Britain have said that perhaps a new resolution, or a new version of the resolution, would be introduced to the Security Council, which would allow for a longer timetable than March 17, the date established in the first resolution. And perhaps putting in some benchmarks for Iraqi compliance with weapons inspections.

If that were to be the case, the French might find something to negotiate about.

ASH-HAR QURAISHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Ash-Har Quraishi in Islamabad.

Pakistan's prime minister, Mir Zafarullah Khan Jamali, addressed the nation this evening, (voice-over) laying out his government's stance on the issue of Iraq, putting it very simply that a war in Iraq would not be in the best interests of the nation of Pakistan.

He's saying that they will not support a war in Iraq, although the prime minister did not get into the details as to whether or not they would vote for -- whether or not they would abstain or go for a no vote on any possible resolution asking for possible military action to take place in Iraq.

(on camera) Now our sources here in Pakistan tell us that he met with his cabinet. He also met with the pro-government party today. Both those bodies recommending to the prime minister that they vote for an abstention in any Security Council resolution that asks for military action.

But right now, the government's saying that it is not going to vote for anything that promotes war in Pakistan. What exactly that vote is, unclear. That's the view from Pakistan. Wolf, back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Ash-Har Quraishi and all of our correspondents.

Meanwhile, the Unite Nations secretary-general, Kofi Annan, making one of his strongest appeals to avoid an Iraq war if at all possible, says it's the job of the U.N. Security Council to maintain international peace and security.

In an article in today's "Wall Street Journal," Annan says people all over the world want the Iraqi crisis resolved peacefully.

And it also says, and I'm quoting, "The Unite Nations, founded to 'save succeeding generations from the scourge of war,' has a duty to search for a peaceful solution until the last possible moment."

Now to Baghdad. Flights of Unite Nations U-2 surveillance planes over Iraq are on hold right now after two of the aircraft were ordered back to base after being challenged by Iraqi war planes.

On a related issue, Iraq for the first time shed some light on one of its drone aircraft that the United States says is another example of Iraqi deception. Our senior international correspondent, Nic Robertson, is in Baghdad, and he has the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: According to the U.N. spokesmen in Baghdad, the U.N.'s letter to Iraqi officials requesting the U-2 over flight may have been ambiguous. He says that there may have been sentences in the letter that referred to the U-2 in the singular form, and there may have been sentences that referred to it in the plural form.

Certainly what happened, according to Iraqi officials, they say two U-2s flew into their airspace, one at 9:40 in the morning flying from Kuwait, one at 10:00 a.m., 20 minutes later, flying into their airspace from Saudi Arabia.

They say immediately they called the U.N. on their hot line and waited for a response from the U.N. Iraqi officials say the U.N. then contacted them back, apologizing for the mistake.

GEN. HUSSAM AMIN, NATIONAL MONITORING DIRECTORATE: He told me that this airplane is a Unite Nations airplane. It belongs to the UNMOVIC, also. But a mistake took place from their side, from UNMOVIC.

The notification was talking about one U-2 airplane from Kuwaiti/Iraqi border. And this airplane came from the Saudi/Iraqi border. And he apologized and he promised that this mistake will not take place again. ROBERTSON: So far, Iraqi officials seem to accept the U.N.'s apology of the misunderstanding. Iraqi officials also say that they did not fly any hostile actions with their aircraft following the U- 2's flight into Iraq.

Also, Iraqi spokesmen speaking out for the first time about a drone. They say this RPV, with a wingspan of 7.45 meters, an RPV that the U.N. says they need to do more research into.

Iraqi officials say that this particular RPV is not designed to carry chemical or biological weapons. They say it can only fly 120 kilometers in circles with a radius of about eight kilometers. That is well inside of the U.N. limitations of 150 kilometers.

They also say that this particular RPV has a small engine, is only designed to carry a payload of 20 kilograms. That payload, they say, is designed for aerial surveillance, for video camera surveillance.

So this is the first time Iraqi officials have talked in detail about this particular RPV that the U.N. says it is still investigating.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And the RPV that Nic Robertson is referring to stands for Remotely Piloted Vehicle, or as they say, one of those drones.

Here's your chance to weigh in on this story. Our Web question of the day is this: "Does the U.S. need another U.N. Security Council resolution to justify an attack on Iraq?" We'll have the results later in this broadcast. Please vote at CNN.com/Wolf.

While you're there, I'd like to hear from you. Send me your comments. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also, of course, where you can read my daily online column: CNN.com/Wolf.

The Unite Nations Security Council is debating the possible war with Iraq even as we speak, Canada's ambassador to the Unite Nations. You're looking at live pictures from inside the Security Council. We'll go there for live coverage throughout this hour.

We'll also continue to monitor all the late breaking developments including this: should the U.S. impose democracy on Iraq by force? And what if the next leader is worse? Worse than Saddam Hussein? We'll ask the last U.S. official to have met publicly with Saddam Hussein when we come back.

Plus war of wills: the "USS Carl Vinson" on patrol off the Korean Peninsula. We'll take you on board.

And the al Qaeda terror trail: are there cells operating right here in U.S. cities? Find out what the U.S. government has learned from the arrest of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The Pentagon is about to release new videotape of a massive bomb test conducted earlier today by the U.S. Air Force. We'll show you that video as soon as we get it.

That story, other late breaking developments. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're looking at live pictures. Canada's ambassador to the Unite Nations saying Iraq should be given another three weeks. Three weeks to comply with U.N. Security Council resolutions, to come clean with all of its weapons of mass destruction.

Canada's ambassador speaking at a meeting, an open meeting of the U.N. Security Council right now. Non-Security Council members weighing in on the showdown with Iraq. We'll continue to have live coverage.

For the sake of discussion, let's assume diplomacy fails and the United States does indeed go to war against Iraq and win, will Saddam Hussein fight to the death? Will Baghdad be destroyed by house-to- house fighting? Will a defeated Iraqi people and military work with or against a U.S. occupation force?

For some insight, let's turn to Joe Wilson. He's the former deputy U.S. ambassador in Iraq, the last U.S. official to have met with Saddam Hussein, just before the last Gulf War.

Let's go through some of those questions. Will Saddam Hussein fight to the death or try to escape with his life?

JOE WILSON, FORMER DEPUTY U.S. AMBASSADOR IN IRAQ: Well, I think he'll do both. I think ultimately he will fight in Baghdad till the bitter end. When a lot of other people have died around him, he may well try and escape and pull an Osama bin Laden on us.

He is above all, a survivalist. And he has had 30 years to prepare his bolt-hole for getting out. He would prefer to survive than die. If he dies, you can assume he's go down in his homeland as a martyr. But I suspect there may well be an option for him to try and slip out the back door in the 11th hour.

BLITZER: How fiercely, based on what you know, and you spent years living in Iraq in the old time, how fiercely will Iraqi military fight for this guy?

WILSON: Well, the estimates are that he may have as many as 80,000 shooters, his Republican Guard and those closest to him, whose own destiny is linked to him. Now they may fight fiercely in Baghdad if that's a stand they care to make.

BLITZER: That means there could be very, very bloody urban warfare on the streets of Baghdad, assuming U.S. troops move into Baghdad.

WILSON: I think our military planners are expecting that, which is why they've come up with the "shock and awe" strategy, which is basically to make it so painful for the Iraqis from the first night that they may well either be killed or opt to not to fight, because they're just so scared of what they're being hit with.

BLITZER: The pictures that we're standing by waiting for the Pentagon showing this bomb blast this test of this new 22,000-pound bomb, the MOAB, will that have an impact, assuming it's showed broadly around the world, on Iraqi military personnel?

WILSON: Well, you know, in the run-up to the Gulf War we did a videotape that we actually got distributed into the region, but it was too late to have any impact because you couldn't get it to people and get it on their VCRs in a timely enough fashion to see it.

I don't know the extent to which the generals, the operational commanders, have access to CNN or the other networks that might be showing this.

BLITZER: Because I remember the buildup to the first Gulf War, the Pentagon unveiled at that time this 5,000-pound Daisy Cutter bomb that they thought would have a dramatic impact on the Iraqi military.

WILSON: The trouble is nobody knew about it in Iraq. The tape that we did was distributed too late to actually have any impact.

BLITZER: Based on what you know about the Iraqi society, more than 20 million people, the Kurds in the north, the Shiites in the south, the Sunnis sort of in the middle every place else, is there a potential for this whole country to crumble along the lines of Yugoslavia, or will they stick together in a post-war era?

WILSON: Well, I think first and foremost during the occupation phase they may well stick together because they have a common occupier, the United States. And once the -- once the joy of having been liberated from Iraq wears off and they're trying to get a hold of their country again, they may want to drive the occupier out, as they have done historically when they've been occupied.

After that I think that there will be a lot of tension. There will be a lot of clan, tribal and confessional tension between the various groups that occupy the country known as Iraq.

BLITZER: It's going to be a potentially messy situation, Joe Wilson.

WILSON: I think very, very messy. We certainly ought to count on this being messy.

BLITZER: I assume that the Pentagon planners that work on this have to worry about that worst case scenario.

Thanks very much for joining us.

WILSON: My pleasure, Wolf.

BLITZER: And speaking of the Pentagon, we're standing by, awaiting the release of videotape from the Pentagon on this new 22,000-pound bomb, the so-called MOAB that was tested today at Eglin Air Force base in Florida. We'll bring that to you as soon as that videotape comes in.

Also, are al Qaeda sleeper cells in the United States? The latest intelligence reports coming into us from Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

And is the White House making a critical mistake by pushing for war without all allied support? That debate still to come.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: You're looking at live pictures from the United Nations Security Council. The representative from Switzerland now speaking. We're waiting for the representative from Turkey. He should be speaking very, very soon.

Behind the representative from Switzerland, sitting, listening very carefully, Mohamed Al Douri, the Iraqi ambassador to the United Nations.

We're monitoring what's unfolding right now at the Security Council. We'll be checking back when developments warrant.

Meanwhile, the recent capture of a top al Qaeda leader has U.S. investigators chasing down all sorts of new leads. But as CNN justice correspondent Kelli Arena reports, it has not been easy going.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The intelligence coup is turning into a massive and often frustrating investigation. Many phone numbers and addresses found with Khalid Shaikh Mohammed are outdated, officials say. And some individuals subsequently tracked down have no known terror connections. Still, the exercise is vital, as finding any terror cells in the United States remains a top priority.

JOHN PARACHINI, RAND CORP. TERROR EXPERT: Each piece will help us track down another part of the overall picture. I think that's very important. And some of the evidence will help us immediately and other parts of testified won't become clearest to its meaning for months.

ARENA: Officials say recent evidence shows al Qaeda operatives transferred money to the U.S. even after the September 11 attacks. And other evidence has led to new investigations in about a dozen U.S. cities, including New York. Dozens of individuals remain under surveillance as a result of the Mohammed arrest, not all of them previously known to law enforcement. Others have yet to be located.

MATT LEVITT, FORMER FBI OFFICIAL: Not every individual whose phone number appears, for example, on Khalid Shaikh's phone is going to have the sense to turn off his cell phone. Not every individual whose name appears in the laptop knows that his name appears in the laptop.

ARENA (on camera): So far, sources say, the haul of information from Pakistan has not led to any terror cells in the United States nor does it point to any plans for an imminent attack. But officials warn the situation is ever changing.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Two important court rulings regarding other detainees in U.S. custody. A federal appeals court has upheld a decision saying the 600 plus detainees at the Guantanamo naval base in Cuba have no right to hearings in U.S. courts. And a federal judge in New York is ordering the government to let dirty bomb suspect, Jose Padilla, see his lawyers. Padilla, an American citizen, had been held without charges since May.

The U.S. debating U.S. action -- the U.N., excuse me, debating U.S. action right now on Iraq. That's happening. We'll bring you the latest developments throughout this hour. Plus, this so-called mother of all bombs or MOAB, as the U.S. military is calling it, we go live to the Florida Panhandle where one was detonated earlier today. We're expecting the first pictures of that test to be released by the Department of Defense. That's coming up. You're watching CNN, the most trusted name in news.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're standing by. We're still awaiting pictures from the Pentagon on that new, awesome weapon, that 22,000-pound bomb, the MOAB that was test fired earlier today at the Eglin Air Force base in Florida. But let's turn to Miles O'Brien at the CNN Center in Atlanta. He's got some more background on this new bomb -- Miles.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Wolf, yes, as a matter of fact, people who live in that area, the Florida Panhandle, say it sounded a lot like thunder when it was finally detonated. The mother of all bombs or more precisely, according to the acronyms that the Pentagon is using, Massive Ordnance Air Burst, 21,000 pounds, 10 tons, if you will, dropped from an MC-130 aircraft. That's because way too heavy to put on a bomb rack of many of the bombers that we have in the inventory. Precision-guided, meaning satellites were involved in bringing this particular weapon down to the ground and that is a key difference from its predecessor, the bomb we have called the Daisy Cutter.

Let's take a look at how the Daisy Cutter works. A dozen of them were dropped in Desert Storm in 1991. There's your C-130. They open up the back door, about 20,000 feet or so, out came the Daisy Cutter. You notice a parachute deploys here about. This was a dumb bomb, in other words, no precise guidance from either satellites or lasers. Down it went. It has its heritage back in Vietnam. It was used to clear landing spots for helicopters, clear mine fields out, sort of wipe out a swath of vegetation. And, of course, it could do a fair amount of damage to personnel; cause a tremendous number of casualties.

Now, let's talk a little bit about MOAB, which weighs about 7,000 pounds more. Same basic idea -- the C-130, the back door opens and out comes the MOAB. Now, shown here, you notice we have all these lines drawn. We're trying to depict here that it is being guided by satellites, GPS satellites, many miles above the earth, which allow it to go down to a very precise location. It detonates a little bit above the ground. Get a tremendous mushroom cloud effect. But we got to point out that just because it's a mushroom cloud that does not mean it's nuclear. As a matter of fact, it is not a nuclear. Is it a conventional weapon and it has a lot of explosive capability.

But it's worth pointing out the Hiroshima bomb was 15 kilotons, which is 15,000 tons. This one is 10 tons. So the Hiroshima bomb was about 1,500 more times explosive, so that puts it in perspective. This particular bomb is perhaps useful for clearing mines, but as the Pentagon admitted today, as much as anything else it has a tremendous psychological effect. And so, to a certain extent, Wolf, MOAB might have already done its job.

BLITZER: Miles O'Brien with important information on the MOAB, this new massive bomb. Thanks, Miles, very much.

Let's get a little bit more information now on this new bomb. Glenn Austin of the CNN affiliate, WKRG in Pensacola, Florida, is joining us live.

Glenn, what did people see and hear and feel when this super bomb exploded only a few hours ago?

GLENN AUSTIN, WKRG CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, a lot of people were wondering what's going to happen. The military for first time, as long as I can remember, that they announced that this bomb was actually going to be dropped and that it was going to make this big implosion and the ground was going to shake. So it actually depended on where you were, whether or not you -- first of all, you heard anything and even felt anything.

Now, Pensacola, we're 50 miles away. Behind me is a seismograph here at Pensacola Junior College. This thing right here records earthquakes all over the world. In fact, it is so sensitive that when the space shuttle Columbia broke up, they can show me here, it recorded the space shuttle actually breaking up. And that's how sensitive this thing is.

You know the MOAB bomb blows up above the surface. And when it does, you know, it's just like the shuttle that can be recorded. And this is proof that it does record things above the ground. But in this case, barely a ripple, only 50 miles away. You really can't see it from here. But we've been watching this all day when this thing happened. And it's just barely any kind of movement whatsoever here in Pensacola. Now, the closer you get over to Crestview, Walton Beach, people heard a thunder, a deep thunder. And only a very few people may have felt something on the ground. But, of course, the military, first of all, they said they were going to talk about it this afternoon from Eglin and then late this afternoon, they said they weren't going to talk about the bomb or the test results or anything of that nature. So again, here in the Gulf Coast the buildup all week long, here comes this big, massive bomb and unless you live very close to it you really didn't see or even feel it.

BLITZER: All right, very interesting. Glenn Austin of our affiliate WKRG in Pensacola. Thanks very much for that information.

Will the U.S. lose more than it gains in a war with Iraq? A presidential hopeful versus a Gulf War Veteran Congressman, Dennis Kucinich and Congressman Steven Buyer square off in a debate. But first, let's look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Another threat? Iranian officials say their country's first nuclear power plant is 70 percent complete and nuclear fuel is expected to arrive from Russia in May. Iran says the plant will be used to produce electricity. But the United States fears it could be used to make a bomb.

Courting controversy. The world has its first permanent war crimes court. Eighteen judges were sworn in during a ceremony in The Hague. The International Criminal Court was established by a 1998 treaty, but the United States has withdrawn its support citing fears Americans will face politically motivated prosecutions.

West Bank violence. Israeli troops battle Palestinian gunmen in Hebron. Reports say one Israeli and one Palestinian died.

No deal. Talks aimed at reuniting the Greek and Turkish sections of Cyprus have collapsed. Negotiators had hoped to unify the Mediterranean island before it joins the European Union next year.

Tibet Regret. Tibetans living in India held a ceremony to protest continued Chinese control of their homeland. The gathering march of a 44th anniversary of an unsuccessful uprising against Chinese rule. The Dalai Lama, who led the uprising, today, criticized China's human rights policy, but he praised Beijing for releasing some political prisoners.

You snooze, you lose. Rio de Janeiro's lengthy carnival season finally is over and party-goers ended things appropriately enough by going to bed. Bed races are the final carnival event. A rolling bed can be a hard thing to control, so ironically, if you want to win the bed race, it's best to stay alert. And that's our look around the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: While the showdown with Iraq has been playing out at the United Nations, the U.S. Congress itself has been relatively silent on the issue, but not necessarily individual members. I'm joined now by two outspoken members of the U.S. House, Representative Dennis Kucinich, Democrat of Ohio. He's also a Democratic presidential hopeful. And Representative Steve Buyer, Republican of Indiana.

Thanks to both of you for joining us. If the U.S. were to go to war against Iraq without another formal U.N. Security Council resolution, what's wrong with that?

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Well, we're squandering the support of the world community we had right after 9/11. Everyone wanted to help the United States in its combat against terrorism. And what's happening is that we have an opportunity here to lead the world towards a peaceful resolution or we have an opportunity to force the world towards a war. I'm hopeful that the United States will take up the responsibility we have for a peaceful resolution.

BLITZER: But you don't think the U.S. should let the U.N. Security Council decide what is in America's best national security interests?

KUCINICH: Well, it's clear that the U.N. Charter permits a nation to defend itself. But Iraq has not attacked the United States and no one's maintaining that it has. No one's maintaining Iraq has the capacity to strike at this country, so I think we have to follow the U.N. Charter and lead towards a peaceful resolution. We may still be able to do that.

BLITZER: Congressman Buyer, he says Iraq represents no real, serious threat to the United States.

REP. STEVE BUYER (R), INDIANA: Well, he's entitled to his opinion. I think the United States has a multiple front happening here. We are engaged in many countries around the world in the war on terrorism and we have this problem called Saddam Hussein that dates back well over 12 years. And we have 18 U.N. resolutions. Resolution 1441 was supposed to be, the -- quote -- "the final resolution for voluntary, complete and full disarmament." And that has not occurred.

BLITZER: But what's the imminent threat to the U.S. right now that forces the president within days to decide whether or not to go to war?

BUYER: The imminent threat is really about regional stability. It's also -- it is how it works with the war on terrorism, when you have someone like a Saddam Hussein who's worked cooperatively with terrorist organizations, placing these weapons of mass destruction, teaching them how to utilize biological or chemical munitions is a threat to the United States and their allies.

BLITZER: Congressman Kucinich?

KUCINICH: Well, the administration has not made its case in Iraq. They have not been able to demonstrate that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11, with al Qaeda's role in 9/11, with the anthrax attack on this country. They've not been able...

BLITZER: But the Iraqis haven't accounted for a lot of weapons of mass destruction. The U.N. itself says that.

KUCINICH: Well, but we have the inspectors there to do the job and that's the whole idea. The inspections are continuing. And the inspections can work if we let them work. They worked over a period of seven years. The inspectors then said that they think they found everything except that which may have been destroyed by bombing. We need to continue our efforts towards inspection. This is not -- war is not necessary.

BLITZER: All right, Congressman Buyer.

BUYER: There are three cases where there have been voluntary disarmament. South Africa, Tajikistan, and Ukraine. And this has to be top-down driven. It is not. Iraq is playing their games of cheat and retreat, concealment. There's nothing...

BLITZER: But what I think Congressman Kucinich and his supporters are suggesting is the U.S. contained the Soviet Union during the Cold War for decades without going to war, why not simply contain the Iraqis right now?

BUYER: Well, containment has not worked. That's part of the problem. You know there is $3 billion in illegal oil proceeds and a lot of the contracting right now -- Saddam Hussein is giving priority contracting to the French, to the Germans and the Russians, along with 70 other plus countries around the world. So containment for this tyrant is not working.

BLITZER: What about that, Congressman Kucinich?

KUCINICH: Well, containment did work with the Soviet Union.

BLITZER: But he's saying it is not working with Iraq.

KUCINICH: But let's look at containment. Our first efforts shouldn't be towards war here. We should try a peaceful resolution and we still can.

BLITZER: But they've tried for 12 years, they say.

KUCINICH: And the fact of the matter is we did contain successfully Saddam Hussein for 12 years. He did not engage in any activity when we were sitting on him with U.N. inspectors. And what I maintain is that this country can lead the world towards peaceful resolution. That would be a wonderful thing to do. Right now, at this very moment, we're at the most critical moment. Right now, people are in the United Nations talking about the direction this world is going to take. It's going to have enormous implications.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Please...

BUYER: No one is pro war. No one in this country is pro war. Peace is the consequence of freedom. That's what has to be said and everybody wants a peaceful resolution. If diplomacy can work, that's great. But the problem is this is a choice of Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER: But you're saying that the U.S. shouldn't even give it much more time. Some of the undecideds say 40 days, 35...

BUYER: No.

BLITZER: ... 40 days, 45 days.

BUYER: When you say 40 to 45 days, what that does is military -- operationally pushes it back one year.

BLITZER: He served in the Persian Gulf War, so from the military perspective, he speaks with some firsthand authority.

KUCINICH: But why -- I would say thank you for serving our country. And we should be concerned about those who are serving. We should support our troops. And I support our troops, but I think that the best way to support them is not to send them, not to put them in harm's way for a war, which is not necessary. See, the case hasn't been made that this war is necessary, that Iraq represents an imminent threat to our country. If Iraq or any nation represented an imminent threat to America, we would have to defend ourselves.

BLITZER: Congressman Buyer, I'm going to give you the last word. Go ahead.

BUYER: We cannot cower in the face of this threat.

BLITZER: In other words, what you're saying, if the U.S. were to back down now...

BUYER: I support the president in making these nations take a vote. And if they're unwilling to go, we have a responsibility as a superpower to provide the region with stability. And we're going to do that.

BLITZER: Well, unfortunately, we have to leave it right there. Congressman Buyer, thanks very much. Congressman Kucinich, thanks to you as well. This debate will continue. We hope to have both of you back.

KUCINICH: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Are U.S. warships sending a message to the North Koreans? CNN's Rebecca MacKinnon is on board.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REBECCA MACKINNON, CMM JAPAN BUREAU CHIEF: These F-18s flew bombing missions over Afghanistan after September 11, 2001, but here in northeast Asia, they're hoping they won't have to do anything more than just train.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We'll take you aboard the USS Carl Vinson when we return. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The Pentagon is sending sixth stealth warplanes to South Korea. Officials say the radar-evading F-117As are being deployed for annual exercises and not because of current tensions on the Korean peninsula. The USS Carl Vinson also has been dispatched to South Korea. CNN's Rebecca MacKinnon is on board.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MACKINNON (voice-over): Fighter jets fly training mission, taking off and landing from the ship's deck day and night. Sailors practice on the guns. This nuclear powered aircraft carrier arrived in northeast Asia just days before North Korea held its second missile test in two weeks.

(on camera): Some of these F-18s flew bombing missions over Afghanistan after September 11, 2001, but here in northeast Asia they're hoping they won't have to do anything more than just train.

(voice-over): Pilots on the USS Carl Vinson say they've been studying a recent encounter between a U.S. spy plane and North Korean fighter jets.

CDR. JESSE KINGG "TUTT", PILOT: We look at North Korea and the operations that we may have to be called upon to do. And what we do is we tailor all of our training to fit any eventuality with that situation.

MACKINNON: Commanding officers hope to avoid any further escalation of tensions. But...

CAPT. DONALD QUINN, AIR WING COMMANDER: If somebody comes out of North Korea or anyplace over here and makes a bad choice, then things can go hot really fast.

MACKINNON: While near Japan, which is in range of North Korean missiles, the Vinson's whole battle group held a coordination exercise with Japanese naval self-defense ships. The floating universe of 5,000 people and 75 planes is now headed to Korea for a joint military exercise with South Korea's armed forces.

REAR ADM. EVAN CHANIK, CARRIER GROUP COMMANDER: Our message here in northeast Asia is really just one of commitment to our friends and allies out here. Are we ready for things that may occur in terms of if nations decide they want to do provocative acts? We're certainly ready for those type of things. That's part of our business.

MACKINNON: Hoping this display of readiness can help prevent a real fight. Rebecca MacKinnon, CNN, aboard the USS Carl Vinson in the Western Pacific.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Straight ahead, the results of our "Web Question of The Day." Does the U.S. need another U.N. Security Council resolution to justify an attack on Iraq? Log on to CNN.com/Wolf. We'll have the results immediately when we come back.

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BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in on our of "Web Question of The Day." Take a look at this. Does the U.S. need another U.N. Security Council resolution to justify an attack on Iraq? Fifty-one percent of you so far say yes, 49 percent of you say no. Remember, this is not a scientific poll. Very evenly split, though, among the thousands of you who have voted so far.

That's all the time we have today. Please join me again tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. Eastern. Don't forget "SHOWDOWN: IRAQ" weekdays at noon Eastern. Until then, thanks very much for watching. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington. "LOU DOBBS MONEYLINE" is up next.

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