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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Six People Killed in Shooting in Chicago; Dotson Indicted in Patrick Dennehy Murder Case; Ten Commandments Monument Taken Down

Aired August 27, 2003 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, GUEST HOST: Hello from Washington. I'm Miles O'Brien reporting. Wolf Blitzer is off once again today.
Carnage in Chicago: an outraged man opens fire at his former place of work, killing six people. Police say the gunman was also killed. CNN's Sean Callebs has our story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Authorities say 36-year-old Salvatore Tapia (ph) was on the verge of being terminated from his job at an auto parts warehouse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not aware of him having any in-person encounters with any of the former people, but that could change as our interviews continue.

CALLEBS: A host of police, yards of yellow crime scene police tape and many ambulances testimony to the bloody morning. Witnesses describe a chaotic scene outside the Windy Citicorp Supply Company.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little bit later we heard an exchange of gunfire, probably 30 rounds. I'm not sure. And that's when the police came into the restaurant and told us that we had to stay in, no one could leave. No one could jump into their cars and pull off.

CALLEBS: The lone gunman firing at police as they tried to gain entrance to the warehouse and end the shooting rampage. Police say they tried to reason with Tapia (ph) and get him to surrender but had no luck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Approximately one hour later he came back out and again exchanged fire with the police. Our HPT officers then arrived on the scene, and based on the information that there was wounded citizens inside, they were ordered to make an assault on the building. When the HPT officers entered the building, the offender refused to drop his weapon and an HTP officer shot him.

CALLEBS: Inside, victims lie waiting to be taken to Chicago hospitals. Police at one point evacuated all businesses and buildings within a block of the south side warehouse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had us evacuate at 9:00. So we didn't know. CALLEBS: The tense battle lasted more than an hour before a number of officers stormed the building. By the time it was all over, the gunman had claimed six lives before he, too, died.

Sean Callebs, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: In Texas, a major new development today in the murder of former Baylor University basketball player Patrick Dennehy. Dennehy's former teammate, Carlton Dotson, now a step closer to being extradited to Texas to face a murder charge.

CNN Dallas bureau chief, Ed Lavandera, joins us with the latest from there. Hello, Ed.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN DALLAS BUREAU CHIEF: Hi, Miles. Well, Waco prosecutors needed this indictment to help speed up the process of returning Carlton Dotson to Texas to face that murder charge. The grand jury meeting briefly this morning, hearing from the lead investigators on this case, and that was enough to bring down this indictment against Carlton Dotson.

The indictment says that Dotson shot and killed Patrick Dennehy on June 12. Autopsy reports have shown that Dennehy was shot twice in the head. So not exactly clear how much longer this extradition process will take before Carlton Dotson is returned back to Texas to face the murder charge, but this is the one step the prosecutors needed to make this happen.

Of course it's been a very long summer for the students and faculty at Baylor University. One uplifting note that we can pass along, though. Comedian Bill Cosby has called an offer to the university that he'll come next week on Thursday, September 4, and he'll perform at a rally to "help lift people's spirits," in his words -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Ed Lavandera in Dallas, thanks much.

The display is gone, but the controversy rages on. The Ten Commandments monument that's thrust Montgomery, Alabama into the spotlight, out of sight this afternoon. But supporters say they'll keep fighting to bring it back.

CNN's Brian Cabell is in Montgomery. He has the latest for us -- hello, Brian.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Miles. You know after two years of buildup to this day, what happened today was very quick. It was very simple.

It took a handful of men and a pallet truck inside the rotunda for about an hour. They got the two-and-a-half pounds of granite up on the pallet truck. They moved it out and moved it into a back room, and that was it. It's no longer in public view. All of this, of course, greeted with severe disappointment by the protesters outside. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hear the cry of your people. Lord, remember the covenant, oh god, in Jesus' name. And god, we ask that your...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: No arrests today. No obstruction whatsoever. There was not much protest to do.

What we heard was praying, we heard speeches, we heard readings from the bible. But what about the politics of all of this? With us right now, Randall Terry, a Christian activist.

What about the politics of all of this? What does this mean today? What's going to happen next?

RANDALL TERRY, SOCIETY OF FREEDOM AND JUSTICE: Well, if you look at what's going on with the federal judiciary, you have guys that are out of control literally. They're going after the Boy Scouts. They don't want them praying at VMI. They give special rights to homosexuals, abortion on demand. We need people like President Bush or state governors to stand up to the federal judiciaries.

CABELL: Do you expect that? Do you expect President Bush to do anything?

TERRY: We would love one phrase from President Bush saying, I stand with you. I believe that the Ten Commandments are a part of our organic law. And I pray to god that he has the courage to stand up for his convictions publicly and just give one word of encouragement to these people, just one.

CABELL: OK. Mr. Terry, thank you very much. Don't have much time.

We should tell you Roy Moore, the man who started all of this, the chief justice who brought this in here some two years ago, he will be speaking out here tomorrow. Back to you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Brian Cabell in Montgomery, Alabama, thank you very much. Chief Justice Roy Moore, who had defied that order, as we say, has called this, and we quote him now, "a sad day." We expect to hear some more from him, as you heard, in just a little bit. And we'll bring you that.

The one-time military policeman first hung a hand-carved plaque of The Ten Commandments in his circuit court room and went on to campaign for the Supreme Court post as the Ten Commandments Judge. This year, Moore received a divinity degree, but observers say his future lies in politics.

Joining me now is a keen observer of southern politics, Hastings Wyman, who is publisher of the "Southern Political Report". Hastings, good to have you here with us.

HASTINGS WYMAN, "SOUTHERN POLITICAL REPORT": Thank you. Glad to be here.

O'BRIEN: Whatever Chief Justice Moore's motivations are, he stands himself in pretty good political stead after this, does he not?

WYMAN: He does, indeed. He's been mentioned as a candidate for governor before and now he gets mentioned for the U.S. Senate in two years, or next year rather, and even possibly state attorney general. So I don't know what he'll do, but he's certainly got a lot of options.

O'BRIEN: Attorney general, Senate, governor? In other words, he could pick the office pretty much?

WYMAN: Well, I don't think you can assume he'd win it. He'd have a tough time against Senator Shelby next year. Shelby is sitting on about $10 million in his campaign war chest. But he would -- Shelby would have to take him seriously because Moore has quite a following in this state.

O'BRIEN: A lot of talk today about the historical parallels. Alabama and Governor George Wallace defying federal courts. The issue was entirely different, of course, then. It was the issue of segregation. But nonetheless, this defiance of the federal entity is something that resonates in Alabama, isn't it?

WYMAN: Well, I think it does in a lot of the south, and I think a lot of it has to do with the south having its history of the Civil War and so forth. And then later the controversies over segregation. It is maybe not the south's finest trait, but it's not unusual down there. And I think you'll see it again. I certainly think there is that political parallel to Wallace, not the issue parallel.

O'BRIEN: All right. But for every lash there is a backlash, of course. Where is the backlash here potentially for Roy Moore?

WYMAN: Of course. The establishment doesn't like him down there. The business community doesn't like him.

O'BRIEN: But they didn't like George Wallace either, right?

WYMAN: No, they didn't. And they lined up against Moore when he ran for the Supreme Court. And he handed them quite a defeat in the Republican primary.

He attacked business when he ran in the Republican primary for chief justice down there. So I don't know that they can stop him. The only thing is, if he runs for governor, that doesn't come up until 2006, and the momentum that he's built around this issue may have dissipated by then.

O'BRIEN: I suppose that there's another way to bring the issue to the floor between now and then. We just don't know how.

WYMAN: Exactly. And he's brought it up before, and I can imagine that he'll figure out another way.

O'BRIEN: Has Roy Moore made himself a national figure through all of this?

WYMAN: Oh, to some extent. He gets a lot of support and has from the past few years from out of state. A lost these protesters showing up down there from the Midwest and other places. He's gotten support from people like James Dobson's Focus on the Family and Carl Ridge (ph) Ministries in Florida.

I think if Bush got in a lot of trouble with the right wing, which I don't see happening, but it could happen, then I think some of these people might put pressure on Moore to try some sort of third party presidential bid. But nobody in Alabama has heard any talk of sort and thinks Moore is more practical than that.

O'BRIEN: But I know enough about politics in the south not to rule that one out, I guess.

WYMAN: I don't think you can rule anything out.

O'BRIEN: All right. Hastings Wyman with the "Southern Political Report". Thanks for dropping by.

WYMAN: My pleasure.

O'BRIEN: Appreciate it.

All right. Here's your turn to weigh in on that story. Our Web question of the day is: Is the moving of the Ten Commandments monument a victory or a defeat for the U.S.? We'll have the results later in this broadcast. Vote now at cnn.com/wolf.

And while you're there, we'd like to hear directly from you. Send us your comments. We hope to have some time to read some of them at the end of the program. That's also of course where you can read our daily online column, cnn.com/wolf. Everything you need is right there.

Terror in Iraq. The hunt for security and Saddam Hussein leaves more Americans dead. Some wanted posters on the streets and warnings of some very big bills for U.S. taxpayers.

Also ahead: NASA's boss says he gets it. The day after that harsh Columbia accident report takes the space agency to task. We'll ask him how in the world he will fix NASA.

And later: the man who tried to kill Ronald Reagan would like to be able to call a taxi driver and take a trip on his own. But the former president's daughter says John Hinckley shouldn't get a pass.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: As U.S. forces step up the hunt for Saddam Hussein, they remain targets themselves. Two more U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq today. Let's go live to CNN's Ben Wedeman in Baghdad -- Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CAIRO BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, Miles. Well, there was no let-up in the daily attacks on U.S. forces in Iraq. The first fatality occurred in the city of Fallujah, west of Baghdad, where a member of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment was killed when a homemade bomb went off near him. Three other soldiers were killed in that incident. Of course, Fallujah has been a real hot trouble spot for American forces since the fall of Saddam Hussein in April.

The other fatality occurred in Baghdad, when a convoy, including members of a military intelligence brigade, were attacked in Baghdad. One of those military intelligence officers killed there.

Now today U.S. forces began putting up wanted posters for Saddam Hussein, reminding Iraqis that there is a $25 million reward out for any information that might lead to his arrest or death. Now if you'll remember on the 22nd of July, a tip-off allowed the American forces in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul to find the hideout of Uday and Qusay, the sons of Saddam Hussein. And of course the man who gave them that tip-off collected $30 million, $15 million per each of the sons, and was also given free passage out of the country.

Nonetheless, however, the U.S. forces say they are still looking for Saddam. They say they are constantly running up leads. But as you know, no luck yet -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Ben Wedeman in Baghdad. Thank you very much.

One week ago, when a suicide bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad killed 23 people, U.S. Army Sergeant William Van Zehle risked his life to try to save others. Despite being wounded by the blast, the retired fire chief immediately began searching the rubble for survivors. Climbing between slabs of concrete, Van Zehle found the chief of the U.N. mission, Sergio Vieira de Mello, along with another U.N. worker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. WILLIAM VAN ZEHLE, U.S. ARMY: So I said, you know, "My name is Bill." He said, "I'm Sergio." I asked him his name and he said "Sergio."

And I said, "Where are you hurting?" And he told me his legs were hurting. I said -- and I really meant it -- I said, "We're going to get you out of here." And at the time I thought we were going to get him out of here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: For almost three hours, Van Zehle and another Army sergeant struggled to keep Vieira de Mello and another man alive. Despite their efforts, the two U.N. officials died. Today, Van Zehle says he's still recovering from post-traumatic stress from that experience.

Face to face. Coming up: just the fact that it's happening is reason for some optimism. But when it comes to North Korea it's always hard to tell. We're live from the crucial talks aimed as taking the steam out of a nuclear standoff.

Also ahead: the Clean Air Act up in smoke? The Bush administration stokes up the coals on an environmental Donnybrook.

And later: Bobby Brown in the slammer. That's hardly news. But you'll want to know what Whitney did when police came calling.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: In the Middle East today, Israeli troops conducted raids in the West Bank, rounding up Palestinians in Ramallah and uncovering weapons and an alleged explosives lab in Nablus. Palestinian Authority President, Yasser Arafat, urged Palestinian militants to renew a truce they abandoned when Israel began attacking their leaders after last week's bus bombing. Arafat today said he's ready to take action against militants, a claim dismissed by both the U.S. and by Israel.

Turning to the North Korean nuclear crisis now, the U.S. says the north may already have one or two nuclear weapons and Pyongyang has hinted it's moving to build more. Six nations today began urgent talks on the matter in Beijing.

CNN's Mike Chinoy is there. He joins us live by videophone -- Mike.

MIKE CHINOY, CNN SR. ASIA CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Miles. Well, it's almost 5:30 in the morning here in Beijing. And in about three-and-a- half hours, the second day of this six-party negotiation on North Korea's nuclear program will begin.

The headline of the first day was no breakthroughs and no progress, but surprisingly cordial atmosphere. The six delegations presenting setpiece position papers, and then, on the sidelines of the talks, the head of the U.S. delegations, Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly, met for 30 or 45 minutes with his North Korean counterpart, Deputy Foreign Minister Kim Jong Il.

The two men chatted in a corner of a big room at China's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) state guest house, both of them simply spelling out their government's positions. No sense of any horse trading.

But this is significant because, for many months, the Bush administration has said it was not prepared to negotiate at all with North Korea, demanding instead that the North Koreans simply agree to abandon their nuclear program. And for their part, the North Koreans have said they'd only talk directly to the U.S., and they've been refusing to come to any kind of multilateral forum.

So the process is under way, but the two sides remain very, very far apart in what they're asking of each other. The Chinese hosts are hoping to press for a declaration at the end of this three-day meeting that will at least keep the diplomatic process going -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Mike Chinoy watching those important talks in Beijing for us. Thank you very much.

Well, the monument moves, but faithful followers stay put. And the debate, well, it lingers. What more can be said, you ask? Thou shalt stay tuned to find out.

Also ahead: what happens when the space shuttles can no longer fly? We'll ask the man in charge at NASA the day after the stinging Columbia accident investigation report.

And later: he shot one of America's most popular presidents. Now he's asking for a little more freedom. We'll hear what President Reagan's daughter has to say about that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: For more on the removal of the Ten Commandments monument, I'm joined by the Reverend Rob Schenck of the group Faith in Action. He's been among those protesting in Montgomery. And here in Washington, the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

And Reverend shank, let me begin with you. Would you say today was a big defeat?

REV. ROB SCHENCK, FAITH AND ACTION: No. It was not a defeat. It was a temporary setback.

Whenever you are dealing with constitutional issues and moral issues, you have a lot of opportunity to reapproach. We had that opportunity in the federal court, certainly in the court of public opinion. And over time, inevitably, the right side wins, and we believe we're on the right side of this argument.

O'BRIEN: Reverend Lynn, conversely, was this a big victory?

REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: It was a tremendous victory. It was a victory for religious freedom, for respect that we ought to be showing religious minorities in this country, and it was a victory for the rule of law.

It means that Judge Roy Moore does not have the right to impose or try to impose his religious views on everyone who walks into that courthouse and sees what one judge described as a monument so large you could not fail to see it unless you were blindfolded. We know what this is all about. The judge has been trying to politicize this from the beginning.

He's tried to act in defiance of the law. He's in the tradition of people like Bill Connor (ph), George Wallace, people who have said, if I don't like federal court orders, I won't obey them.

That's not the right side of history. He's on the wrong side. And he's also on the wrong side of the Constitution. The Supreme Court is not going to hear this case, in spite of what Reverend Schenck wants, in no small measure because this judge has said federal courts don't have any authority over me. If you don't tell me I can do what I want, I'll do it anyway. That's unclean hands to present to the court.

O'BRIEN: Reverend Schenck, why so much emphasis on this? There's so many other important issues of the day to be focused on a two-and-a-half ton hunk of granite that sat there in that rotunda. Was this in some way a waste of time for everybody involved?

SCHENCK: Absolutely not. This is not about a granite sculpture. This is about a very important constitutional principle, and that is the right of the people to express themselves religiously or otherwise under the first amendment. The people of the state of Alabama have that right.

What has happened here is that a federal judge has trampled on those rights, and that cannot be tolerated. And we have a man who has made a very articulate constitutional argument for what he is doing under both the state and federal Constitutions. That's the right thing. That's the kind of moral courage that we need in public leaders.

O'BRIEN: Reverend Lynn, go ahead.

LYNN: Rob, here's the point. These fringe legal arguments that the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to the state of Alabama and all the other nonsensical arguments that the judge has made have already been repudiated, not by one federal judge, but by four federal judges already. And that is completely consistent with what the Supreme Court has said in this matter.

Rob Schenck ought to know, and I think he does, that we don't take a kind of public opinion poll of which people, which religion, the biggest one gets to win, gets to put its symbols up in courthouses and public buildings. We respect the right of religious minorities, and even though Reverend Schenck and myself share the same religious views, the difference, I guess, is that I don't feel that the government, including elected judges in Alabama, are necessary to the promotion of the faith.

That's up to members of the clergy. That's up to local churches. There are 350 right around that courthouse.

SCHENCK: But Reverend Lynn, if you'll permit me by following your argument, then you are also challenging the very bedrock of our moral concepts of government. For example, our national motto is, "In God We Trust."

LYNN: One of them is.

SCHENCK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to one nation under god. And the Supreme Court every time it sits offers a prayer to god, "God save the United States and this honorable court."

O'BRIEN: Reverend Schenck...

(CROSSTALK)

SCHENCK: Do these need to be challenged just as well?

O'BRIEN: Reverend Schenck, isn't it true that just by virtue of the protest that has been generated through all of this, you could declare a victory and go home at this point and just say that this proves that there is tremendous religious belief and fervor in this state and then move on to other things?

SCHENCK: Well, we're not planning to go home. We're here to stay. And in fact, we're asking more people to come. And we have information that a whole lot of people are on their way.

In fact, Dr. James Dobson has joined this effort, will be here tomorrow. Alan Keyes and other national leaders who are calling people to come to Montgomery. It's important to take a stand here.

Look, the Supreme Court hasn't yet heard this case. It was erroneously reported that the Supreme Court had turned this case down.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Reverend Schenck, are you going to stay there until the Supreme Court hears your case?

SCHENCK: Well, you know, one doesn't know. We're just going to take it day by day. There's a lot of leaders here in Montgomery who are taking a stance.

LYNN: You know, this is absolutely...

SCHENCK: This is important enough that people not give in at this point.

LYNN: ... preposterous.

SCHENCK: And we are resolved to stay.

O'BRIEN: All right. Reverend Lynn, go.

LYNN: Yes. This is absolutely preposterous. The United States Supreme Court is not going to take a case where the judge says, if you don't rule my way I'm not going to listen to you anyway.

You've been trying to bring people down there for weeks now. And frankly, more people show up at an average Alabama high school football game than have shown up at your rallies. I respect your commitment, but you've got it misplaced.

If this was a privately placed monument, if this was on the lawn of Judge Roy Moore's home and some bureaucrat tried to take it away, I'd be with you. It's not. It's in a public building that is supposed to...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: All right, gentlemen.

SCHENCK: Reverend Lynn, are you going to go after the artwork in the Capitol next?

LYNN: No. I'm certainly not. And if you can't tell the difference between an artistic (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and a two-and-a-half ton granite monument, I think you have a serious problem of cognition here. This was intended to promote religion. That's what the judge said. It's not an artistic historical representation.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHENCK: This is an acknowledgement of god, perfectly constitutional, just as our national motto, "In God We Trust" is.

O'BRIEN: All right. No sense thinking we're going to change anybody's mind at this juncture in this time frame that we have. Reverends Barry Lynn and Rob Schenck, thank you both for being with us to bat it around yet one more time.

LYNN: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: We appreciate it.

Here's another look at our Web Question of the Day for you. Is the moving of the Ten Commandments monument a victory or a defeat for the United States? We'll have the results a little later in the broadcast. We invite you to vote now, cnn.com/wolf is the place.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: One day after a scathing report on the Shuttle Columbia disaster, NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe says "Shuttle flights will resume when we are fit to fly." All seven astronauts on board were killed as Columbia broke up on re-entry over Texas last February.

In a 248-page report by the independent Columbia accident investigation board, blame for the accident was placed squarely on NASA. The report said that unless NASA changes what it called its "broken safety culture," more shuttles and astronauts will be lost.

Sean O'Keefe is the administrator of NASA. He joins us now live to discuss the report and what's next for NASA. Mr. O'Keefe, good to have you with us.

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: Thank you, Miles Nice to see you, too.

O'BRIEN: You said today that NASA gets it. Didn't NASA say it got it after Challenger? What's going to be different this time?

O'KEEFE: Well, I've been here for a little over a year now. And so speaking to the previous history in that regard I think is not nearly as important as thinking about what the future is going to be. And in that respect, we are positively committed to accepting all the findings and implementing and complying with all the recommendations. And that's the direction we have to take.

That's the focus we must be dedicated to. And we've got to go about it with as much courage and diligence as the Columbia families have been in dealing with their challenges of dealing with this terrible accident as well. So if we resolve to do as well as that, I think we'll do very well.

O'BRIEN: That's a tall order and undoubtedly a steep price tag. No dollar signs yet affixed to all that in that 248-page report. It's probably not the best time in the world to be going to Congress and asking for more money, is it?

O'KEEFE: Well, it never is. And any time you ask the taxpayers of the United States, the American public to step up and provide resources for exploration or discovery opportunities, we have a requirement and a need to justify everything we ask for. And I think this will be no different.

O'BRIEN: All right. What happens when the shuttle fleet can no longer fly? One of the areas discussed in this report is just that fact. And it's very harsh on the fact that there really is no viable next generation alternative in the works.

Talking about something would take many, many years to build and cost many billions of dollars. And yet there is nothing in the pipeline. Is NASA prepared to begin something in earnest that will put something in space with people, without using the shuttle?

O'KEEFE: Well, there's two things to that, Miles. I think, first of all, the board was very, very clear in saying there's nothing structurally hazard about flying this amazing piece of machinery. If we exercise the diligence, if we restore the safety culture that we've always been known for and assure that we do this with great deliberation, this asset can be made to fly for some time to come.

What they did suggest is that if we extended beyond the beginning of the next decade, that there's really a demand, a requirement to re- certify all the aspects of the orbiter to assure that. That notwithstanding, it is a 1970's technology that has been upgraded and improved and constantly re-evaluated all the way through to this date. But we do need to look at a future asset that will supplement and complement that capability.

The president's budget includes a crew transfer vehicle, the orbital space plane, which we're planning to go out and solicit to the industry for innovative creative ideas on how to do that in very short order. As a matter of fact, it's already under way in terms of laying out the requirements and the demands we'll have for that capability. And we'll see what comes back here in the very few short months ahead.

O'BRIEN: Have you heard from the family members since the release of the report? What have they said, and have you apologized on behalf of NASA to them?

O'KEEFE: Absolutely. I think from the very first day there is no way to express sufficient apology, remorse. And I think just the sense of accountability and responsibility we have for the loss of those remarkable people to those courageous families. I mean, they have been just amazing.

I have not had an occasion to speak to Ellen Husband (ph) or to any of the other crew families in the last 36 to 48 hours, but we stay in very close touch. And I'm hopeful when we get a chance to get down to Houston to see them here in the few short days ahead. But they have handled this with extraordinary courage and they've been an inspiration to all of us.

O'BRIEN: They probably have a fair amount of right and claim to anger and bitterness. How does NASA feel about that?

O'KEEFE: Well, there's no question. I mean, I don't know that I or anybody I know could have withstood and have stood up to and dealt with the depth of this tragedy that will be a lifetime of realization that this is a lost loved one forever as well as they have. And so, by all rights and by all understanding, certainly have cause and justification for feeling and anger and bitterness.

But I've been astounded to see how courageous and inspiring they are in the manner in which they have worked through this very, very diligently and very philosophically to understand the larger exploration objectives their loved ones dedicated their lives to. It's amazing. I am very inspired by these folks. They're amazing.

O'BRIEN: About out of time. I am just curious if you know when you'll be flying again.

O'KEEFE: Well, when we're fit to fly. I think we've really got to go through the hardware corrections that were identified in the report, and then we've got to make all these process changes that I think the report and the board very diligently spent time examining. We've got to be equally diligent in picking the right options and looking at that in the time ahead. So when we're ready to do that, that's when we're going to fly.

O'BRIEN: NASA administrator, Sean O'Keefe, thanks for your time.

O'KEEFE: Thank you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Over the skies of northern Virginia today, a flight back in time. An example of the nation's first jetliner completed its final voyage, landing near the Smithsonian Institution's new Air and Space Museum annex at Dulles International Airport.

The Boeing 367-80 was a prototype that would become known just as the -80 (ph). It revolutionized commercial air travel in the 1950s, when a fully developed version called the 707 -- remember that one -- took to the skies. The plane that landed today was retired from service in 1972. Boeing restored the aircraft, donated it to the Smithsonian, complete with its plywood elevators.

More pollution, more efficiency, or both? The Bush administration is rolling back some pollution rules on older power plants, prompting warnings from environmentalists and reassurances from the EPA. CNN's Kathleen Koch with our story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The new EPA rule removes requirements that power plants, refineries and other factors install more pollution controls when they make upgrades that could pollute the air. Now those changes can go ahead without any measures to cut emissions. The Environmental Protection Agency insists U.S. air quality overall will continue to improve, though it admits that under the new rule power plants could emit more certain pollutants.

JEFF HOLMSTEAD, EPA: It will either have a very minor decrease or a very minor increase. That's if you ignore all the other programs. But if you look at the other programs, emissions will continue to come down over time.

KOCH: Clean air advocates say that's not the case.

FRANK O'DONNELL, CLEAN AIR TRUST: It would enable big smokestack industries like refineries, like coal-fired power plants to emit more pollution. That's going to mean more public health damage, more breathing problems for people, more people dying prematurely. It's a tremendous setback for clean air.

KOCH: But power industry groups say upgrades will make plants two to three percent more efficient, helping prevent a repeat of the mid-August blackout.

SCOTT SEGAL, ELECTRIC RELIABILITY COORDINATING COUNCIL: If you allow maintenance projects to proceed at these facilities, it is a way to help them prevent pollution and to become more reliable players in the electric grid. That's extremely important.

KOCH: Coal-fired power plants, the most potentially polluting facilities impacted by the new rule, are located predominantly in the South and Midwest. But any particulates or acid rain they produce generally end up down wind in states largely in the Northeast. Most of those states get very little of their energy from coal and plan to fight the new EPA rule in court.

PETER LEHNER, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE: This rule is not doing what the states want. This administration claims to care about states' rights, but with this rule they are ignoring the states and doing what the states have desperately begged them not to do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: Environmental groups and many states call the new rule an assault on environmental protections. But the Bush administration and the industries effected rather see it as a smart move to increase efficiency and reduce bureaucracy -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Kathleen Koch, thank you very much.

It is 5:47. Do you know where John Hinckley is? At a mental hospital here in Washington. They should know full well, but if Ronald Reagan's attempted assassin has his way, he could be out on his own without supervision.

First, the answer to today's news quiz.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) O'BRIEN (voice-over): Earlier, we asked: what was the first orbiter to fly in space? The answer: Space Shuttle Columbia, which made its debut in April of 1981.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: John Hinckley Jr., the would-be assassin of former President Ronald Reagan, is making a new push for more freedom. And the issue, which could be decided just days from now, already is stirring controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Twenty-one years of confinement and treatment and still heated debate over the mental health of one John W. Hinckley Jr. The man who tried to kill President Ronald Reagan now reportedly wants permission to make unsupervised overnight visits to his parents' house in Williamsburg, Virginia. "The Washington Post" reports a hearing is scheduled for next week on the request.

Hinckley's attorneys have filed court papers saying his psychosis and depression have been in full remission for a decade and he does not pose a danger to himself or others. Prosecutors in the Washington D.C. Department of Mental Health are against the idea, and they are not the only ones.

In a letter posted on newsweek.com, President Reagan's daughter, Patty Davis, writes "I am not objective about this story. How could I be? This man tried to kill my father and almost succeeded. I don't believe for a second that John Hinckley is no longer mentally ill."

Neither do the attorneys for the government who have collided with Hinckley and his attorney for many years now. Davis adds, "I also don't believe that mental illness means a person is not also extremely smart, deceptive and calculating."

Hinckley was found not guilty by reason of insanity for the shootings in March 1981 of President Reagan and three others. Since 1982, he's been confined to the grounds of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington. But for the past three years he has been allowed to make several supervised trips off hospital grounds. Those excursions have always been monitored by hospital staff and FBI and Secret Service agents.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Former Justice Department official Victoria Toensing with me now from Washington to talk more about this new development in the Hinckley case. Her husband prosecuted Hinckley, by the way, and she was involved in the case in writing some of the briefs that were involved in all that. Good to have...

VICTORIA TOENSING, FMR. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: About the insanity defense. O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about this insanity defense. I mean, when the verdict is thus, that he is put in a mental hospital, eventually it can be proven that a person is healthy and that person should be allowed a measure of freedom, right? Isn't that the way it's supposed to go?

TOENSING: Well, it does for some people. But there are some people that have a mental sickness such that we must admit that they may never be cured. John Hinckley, as you just saw in the clip, shot four people, four public servants, and forever ruined James Brady's life, almost killed the president of the United States, nullifying an election.

And why did he do it? And that's the important thing here. Because not only was he delusional, but he was delusional using violence to carry out his delusion.

His heroes were assassins. That's who he admired most and that's who he wanted to be like. He studied the shooting of John Lennon. That was somebody that he admired.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, is there any doctor's opinion in the world that would make you feel that he no longer has such delusions?

TOENSING: I don't know. But what's important here is that the doctors even at St. Elizabeth's oppose his release without supervision. So, I mean, that's an important factor. Forget the public policy reasons, which we can get into, but the doctors.

And the doctors at St. Elizabeth's about a decade ago, when he was trying to get out, supported his getting out. And do you know what happened? Do you know the history of that?

They were very supportive, and then all of a sudden they found out that he was writing letters to mass murders...

O'BRIEN: I remember that.

TOENSING: ... to Charles Manson and Ted Bundy. And why was he doing that? Those were his heroes.

O'BRIEN: Well, is the issue, is he a menace to society? Is that all that matters? Or should the wishes of the Reagan family be taken into account here?

TOENSING: Well, I don't think just the wishes of the Reagan family. But I think it's very important for us to consider, or for the court to consider, because that's who is going to decide it, is a judge, that we are saying that he's being asked to be let loose in the very city where there is a president, and that was his whole purpose of his gaining fame and notoriety was to kill a president of the United States. I mean, it's not like we're letting him loose in the mountains of Colorado, but in Washington, D.C., where there is a President of the United States.

O'BRIEN: So do you suspect his chances are good at all, forgetting this measure of freedom?

TOENSING: I would think since the doctors and the prosecution oppose it, it's probably somewhere between nil and zip.

O'BRIEN: And yet, nevertheless, here we are discussing it many years later.

TOENSING: I think it's a bit of history.

O'BRIEN: All right. Victoria Toensing, thanks very much. Appreciate your insights on all of this.

Once again, we asked John Hinckley's attorney to talk to us about this issue. He had no comment for us.

Our Hot Web question of the day is this: Is the moving of the Ten Commandments monument a victory or defeat for the U.S.? Vote now at cnn.com/wolf. We'll give you some results for you when you come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: In Los Angeles today, another wild car chase to tell you about. It ended at a busy intersection, when authorities say the man tried to car-jack several other vehicles. He didn't do that. He then tried to hide behind a woman, and a child, as he was tackled by deputies. Obviously not too courageous there.

Authorities say they believe the suspect had kidnapped the woman and two children. The baby was handed out of the car when it stopped on a residential street in the midst of that pursuit.

Now, here's how you are weighing in on our Web Question of the Day. We've been asking you this: Is moving the Ten Commandments monument a victory or defeat for the United States. Fifty-seven percent of you said victory. Forty-three percent of you said defeat. And as we always tell you, thou shalt not interpret this as a scientific poll.

You can find the exact vote tally, by the way, and continue to vote. Keep on voting if you like on our Web site at cnn.com/wolf.

Let's hear from some of what you've been saying in your e-mails.

Johnnie writes this: "What is next? They remove prayer from schools and now the Ten Commandments from the courthouse. The Commandments are laws that deal with the morals of man. Where is a more fitting place to display these laws than a courthouse?"

But Margaret has this counterpoint. "Allowing the Ten Commandments, the law book of one specific religion, to remain in the courthouse would be a de facto establishment of a state-sponsored religion in direct contravention of the Bill of Rights."

A reminder: you can always watch WOLF BLITZER REPORTS weekdays at 5:00 Eastern, and you can also catch us weekdays at noon Eastern.

I'll see you again tomorrow at this time. Until then, thanks for joining us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





in Patrick Dennehy Murder Case; Ten Commandments Monument Taken Down>


Aired August 27, 2003 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, GUEST HOST: Hello from Washington. I'm Miles O'Brien reporting. Wolf Blitzer is off once again today.
Carnage in Chicago: an outraged man opens fire at his former place of work, killing six people. Police say the gunman was also killed. CNN's Sean Callebs has our story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEAN CALLEBS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Authorities say 36-year-old Salvatore Tapia (ph) was on the verge of being terminated from his job at an auto parts warehouse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're not aware of him having any in-person encounters with any of the former people, but that could change as our interviews continue.

CALLEBS: A host of police, yards of yellow crime scene police tape and many ambulances testimony to the bloody morning. Witnesses describe a chaotic scene outside the Windy Citicorp Supply Company.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A little bit later we heard an exchange of gunfire, probably 30 rounds. I'm not sure. And that's when the police came into the restaurant and told us that we had to stay in, no one could leave. No one could jump into their cars and pull off.

CALLEBS: The lone gunman firing at police as they tried to gain entrance to the warehouse and end the shooting rampage. Police say they tried to reason with Tapia (ph) and get him to surrender but had no luck.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Approximately one hour later he came back out and again exchanged fire with the police. Our HPT officers then arrived on the scene, and based on the information that there was wounded citizens inside, they were ordered to make an assault on the building. When the HPT officers entered the building, the offender refused to drop his weapon and an HTP officer shot him.

CALLEBS: Inside, victims lie waiting to be taken to Chicago hospitals. Police at one point evacuated all businesses and buildings within a block of the south side warehouse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had us evacuate at 9:00. So we didn't know. CALLEBS: The tense battle lasted more than an hour before a number of officers stormed the building. By the time it was all over, the gunman had claimed six lives before he, too, died.

Sean Callebs, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: In Texas, a major new development today in the murder of former Baylor University basketball player Patrick Dennehy. Dennehy's former teammate, Carlton Dotson, now a step closer to being extradited to Texas to face a murder charge.

CNN Dallas bureau chief, Ed Lavandera, joins us with the latest from there. Hello, Ed.

ED LAVANDERA, CNN DALLAS BUREAU CHIEF: Hi, Miles. Well, Waco prosecutors needed this indictment to help speed up the process of returning Carlton Dotson to Texas to face that murder charge. The grand jury meeting briefly this morning, hearing from the lead investigators on this case, and that was enough to bring down this indictment against Carlton Dotson.

The indictment says that Dotson shot and killed Patrick Dennehy on June 12. Autopsy reports have shown that Dennehy was shot twice in the head. So not exactly clear how much longer this extradition process will take before Carlton Dotson is returned back to Texas to face the murder charge, but this is the one step the prosecutors needed to make this happen.

Of course it's been a very long summer for the students and faculty at Baylor University. One uplifting note that we can pass along, though. Comedian Bill Cosby has called an offer to the university that he'll come next week on Thursday, September 4, and he'll perform at a rally to "help lift people's spirits," in his words -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Ed Lavandera in Dallas, thanks much.

The display is gone, but the controversy rages on. The Ten Commandments monument that's thrust Montgomery, Alabama into the spotlight, out of sight this afternoon. But supporters say they'll keep fighting to bring it back.

CNN's Brian Cabell is in Montgomery. He has the latest for us -- hello, Brian.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good afternoon, Miles. You know after two years of buildup to this day, what happened today was very quick. It was very simple.

It took a handful of men and a pallet truck inside the rotunda for about an hour. They got the two-and-a-half pounds of granite up on the pallet truck. They moved it out and moved it into a back room, and that was it. It's no longer in public view. All of this, of course, greeted with severe disappointment by the protesters outside. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hear the cry of your people. Lord, remember the covenant, oh god, in Jesus' name. And god, we ask that your...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABELL: No arrests today. No obstruction whatsoever. There was not much protest to do.

What we heard was praying, we heard speeches, we heard readings from the bible. But what about the politics of all of this? With us right now, Randall Terry, a Christian activist.

What about the politics of all of this? What does this mean today? What's going to happen next?

RANDALL TERRY, SOCIETY OF FREEDOM AND JUSTICE: Well, if you look at what's going on with the federal judiciary, you have guys that are out of control literally. They're going after the Boy Scouts. They don't want them praying at VMI. They give special rights to homosexuals, abortion on demand. We need people like President Bush or state governors to stand up to the federal judiciaries.

CABELL: Do you expect that? Do you expect President Bush to do anything?

TERRY: We would love one phrase from President Bush saying, I stand with you. I believe that the Ten Commandments are a part of our organic law. And I pray to god that he has the courage to stand up for his convictions publicly and just give one word of encouragement to these people, just one.

CABELL: OK. Mr. Terry, thank you very much. Don't have much time.

We should tell you Roy Moore, the man who started all of this, the chief justice who brought this in here some two years ago, he will be speaking out here tomorrow. Back to you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Brian Cabell in Montgomery, Alabama, thank you very much. Chief Justice Roy Moore, who had defied that order, as we say, has called this, and we quote him now, "a sad day." We expect to hear some more from him, as you heard, in just a little bit. And we'll bring you that.

The one-time military policeman first hung a hand-carved plaque of The Ten Commandments in his circuit court room and went on to campaign for the Supreme Court post as the Ten Commandments Judge. This year, Moore received a divinity degree, but observers say his future lies in politics.

Joining me now is a keen observer of southern politics, Hastings Wyman, who is publisher of the "Southern Political Report". Hastings, good to have you here with us.

HASTINGS WYMAN, "SOUTHERN POLITICAL REPORT": Thank you. Glad to be here.

O'BRIEN: Whatever Chief Justice Moore's motivations are, he stands himself in pretty good political stead after this, does he not?

WYMAN: He does, indeed. He's been mentioned as a candidate for governor before and now he gets mentioned for the U.S. Senate in two years, or next year rather, and even possibly state attorney general. So I don't know what he'll do, but he's certainly got a lot of options.

O'BRIEN: Attorney general, Senate, governor? In other words, he could pick the office pretty much?

WYMAN: Well, I don't think you can assume he'd win it. He'd have a tough time against Senator Shelby next year. Shelby is sitting on about $10 million in his campaign war chest. But he would -- Shelby would have to take him seriously because Moore has quite a following in this state.

O'BRIEN: A lot of talk today about the historical parallels. Alabama and Governor George Wallace defying federal courts. The issue was entirely different, of course, then. It was the issue of segregation. But nonetheless, this defiance of the federal entity is something that resonates in Alabama, isn't it?

WYMAN: Well, I think it does in a lot of the south, and I think a lot of it has to do with the south having its history of the Civil War and so forth. And then later the controversies over segregation. It is maybe not the south's finest trait, but it's not unusual down there. And I think you'll see it again. I certainly think there is that political parallel to Wallace, not the issue parallel.

O'BRIEN: All right. But for every lash there is a backlash, of course. Where is the backlash here potentially for Roy Moore?

WYMAN: Of course. The establishment doesn't like him down there. The business community doesn't like him.

O'BRIEN: But they didn't like George Wallace either, right?

WYMAN: No, they didn't. And they lined up against Moore when he ran for the Supreme Court. And he handed them quite a defeat in the Republican primary.

He attacked business when he ran in the Republican primary for chief justice down there. So I don't know that they can stop him. The only thing is, if he runs for governor, that doesn't come up until 2006, and the momentum that he's built around this issue may have dissipated by then.

O'BRIEN: I suppose that there's another way to bring the issue to the floor between now and then. We just don't know how.

WYMAN: Exactly. And he's brought it up before, and I can imagine that he'll figure out another way.

O'BRIEN: Has Roy Moore made himself a national figure through all of this?

WYMAN: Oh, to some extent. He gets a lot of support and has from the past few years from out of state. A lost these protesters showing up down there from the Midwest and other places. He's gotten support from people like James Dobson's Focus on the Family and Carl Ridge (ph) Ministries in Florida.

I think if Bush got in a lot of trouble with the right wing, which I don't see happening, but it could happen, then I think some of these people might put pressure on Moore to try some sort of third party presidential bid. But nobody in Alabama has heard any talk of sort and thinks Moore is more practical than that.

O'BRIEN: But I know enough about politics in the south not to rule that one out, I guess.

WYMAN: I don't think you can rule anything out.

O'BRIEN: All right. Hastings Wyman with the "Southern Political Report". Thanks for dropping by.

WYMAN: My pleasure.

O'BRIEN: Appreciate it.

All right. Here's your turn to weigh in on that story. Our Web question of the day is: Is the moving of the Ten Commandments monument a victory or a defeat for the U.S.? We'll have the results later in this broadcast. Vote now at cnn.com/wolf.

And while you're there, we'd like to hear directly from you. Send us your comments. We hope to have some time to read some of them at the end of the program. That's also of course where you can read our daily online column, cnn.com/wolf. Everything you need is right there.

Terror in Iraq. The hunt for security and Saddam Hussein leaves more Americans dead. Some wanted posters on the streets and warnings of some very big bills for U.S. taxpayers.

Also ahead: NASA's boss says he gets it. The day after that harsh Columbia accident report takes the space agency to task. We'll ask him how in the world he will fix NASA.

And later: the man who tried to kill Ronald Reagan would like to be able to call a taxi driver and take a trip on his own. But the former president's daughter says John Hinckley shouldn't get a pass.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: As U.S. forces step up the hunt for Saddam Hussein, they remain targets themselves. Two more U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq today. Let's go live to CNN's Ben Wedeman in Baghdad -- Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CAIRO BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, Miles. Well, there was no let-up in the daily attacks on U.S. forces in Iraq. The first fatality occurred in the city of Fallujah, west of Baghdad, where a member of the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment was killed when a homemade bomb went off near him. Three other soldiers were killed in that incident. Of course, Fallujah has been a real hot trouble spot for American forces since the fall of Saddam Hussein in April.

The other fatality occurred in Baghdad, when a convoy, including members of a military intelligence brigade, were attacked in Baghdad. One of those military intelligence officers killed there.

Now today U.S. forces began putting up wanted posters for Saddam Hussein, reminding Iraqis that there is a $25 million reward out for any information that might lead to his arrest or death. Now if you'll remember on the 22nd of July, a tip-off allowed the American forces in the northern Iraqi city of Mosul to find the hideout of Uday and Qusay, the sons of Saddam Hussein. And of course the man who gave them that tip-off collected $30 million, $15 million per each of the sons, and was also given free passage out of the country.

Nonetheless, however, the U.S. forces say they are still looking for Saddam. They say they are constantly running up leads. But as you know, no luck yet -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Ben Wedeman in Baghdad. Thank you very much.

One week ago, when a suicide bombing of the U.N. headquarters in Baghdad killed 23 people, U.S. Army Sergeant William Van Zehle risked his life to try to save others. Despite being wounded by the blast, the retired fire chief immediately began searching the rubble for survivors. Climbing between slabs of concrete, Van Zehle found the chief of the U.N. mission, Sergio Vieira de Mello, along with another U.N. worker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. WILLIAM VAN ZEHLE, U.S. ARMY: So I said, you know, "My name is Bill." He said, "I'm Sergio." I asked him his name and he said "Sergio."

And I said, "Where are you hurting?" And he told me his legs were hurting. I said -- and I really meant it -- I said, "We're going to get you out of here." And at the time I thought we were going to get him out of here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: For almost three hours, Van Zehle and another Army sergeant struggled to keep Vieira de Mello and another man alive. Despite their efforts, the two U.N. officials died. Today, Van Zehle says he's still recovering from post-traumatic stress from that experience.

Face to face. Coming up: just the fact that it's happening is reason for some optimism. But when it comes to North Korea it's always hard to tell. We're live from the crucial talks aimed as taking the steam out of a nuclear standoff.

Also ahead: the Clean Air Act up in smoke? The Bush administration stokes up the coals on an environmental Donnybrook.

And later: Bobby Brown in the slammer. That's hardly news. But you'll want to know what Whitney did when police came calling.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: In the Middle East today, Israeli troops conducted raids in the West Bank, rounding up Palestinians in Ramallah and uncovering weapons and an alleged explosives lab in Nablus. Palestinian Authority President, Yasser Arafat, urged Palestinian militants to renew a truce they abandoned when Israel began attacking their leaders after last week's bus bombing. Arafat today said he's ready to take action against militants, a claim dismissed by both the U.S. and by Israel.

Turning to the North Korean nuclear crisis now, the U.S. says the north may already have one or two nuclear weapons and Pyongyang has hinted it's moving to build more. Six nations today began urgent talks on the matter in Beijing.

CNN's Mike Chinoy is there. He joins us live by videophone -- Mike.

MIKE CHINOY, CNN SR. ASIA CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Miles. Well, it's almost 5:30 in the morning here in Beijing. And in about three-and-a- half hours, the second day of this six-party negotiation on North Korea's nuclear program will begin.

The headline of the first day was no breakthroughs and no progress, but surprisingly cordial atmosphere. The six delegations presenting setpiece position papers, and then, on the sidelines of the talks, the head of the U.S. delegations, Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly, met for 30 or 45 minutes with his North Korean counterpart, Deputy Foreign Minister Kim Jong Il.

The two men chatted in a corner of a big room at China's (UNINTELLIGIBLE) state guest house, both of them simply spelling out their government's positions. No sense of any horse trading.

But this is significant because, for many months, the Bush administration has said it was not prepared to negotiate at all with North Korea, demanding instead that the North Koreans simply agree to abandon their nuclear program. And for their part, the North Koreans have said they'd only talk directly to the U.S., and they've been refusing to come to any kind of multilateral forum.

So the process is under way, but the two sides remain very, very far apart in what they're asking of each other. The Chinese hosts are hoping to press for a declaration at the end of this three-day meeting that will at least keep the diplomatic process going -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Mike Chinoy watching those important talks in Beijing for us. Thank you very much.

Well, the monument moves, but faithful followers stay put. And the debate, well, it lingers. What more can be said, you ask? Thou shalt stay tuned to find out.

Also ahead: what happens when the space shuttles can no longer fly? We'll ask the man in charge at NASA the day after the stinging Columbia accident investigation report.

And later: he shot one of America's most popular presidents. Now he's asking for a little more freedom. We'll hear what President Reagan's daughter has to say about that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: For more on the removal of the Ten Commandments monument, I'm joined by the Reverend Rob Schenck of the group Faith in Action. He's been among those protesting in Montgomery. And here in Washington, the Reverend Barry Lynn of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

And Reverend shank, let me begin with you. Would you say today was a big defeat?

REV. ROB SCHENCK, FAITH AND ACTION: No. It was not a defeat. It was a temporary setback.

Whenever you are dealing with constitutional issues and moral issues, you have a lot of opportunity to reapproach. We had that opportunity in the federal court, certainly in the court of public opinion. And over time, inevitably, the right side wins, and we believe we're on the right side of this argument.

O'BRIEN: Reverend Lynn, conversely, was this a big victory?

REV. BARRY LYNN, AMERICANS UNITED FOR SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE: It was a tremendous victory. It was a victory for religious freedom, for respect that we ought to be showing religious minorities in this country, and it was a victory for the rule of law.

It means that Judge Roy Moore does not have the right to impose or try to impose his religious views on everyone who walks into that courthouse and sees what one judge described as a monument so large you could not fail to see it unless you were blindfolded. We know what this is all about. The judge has been trying to politicize this from the beginning.

He's tried to act in defiance of the law. He's in the tradition of people like Bill Connor (ph), George Wallace, people who have said, if I don't like federal court orders, I won't obey them.

That's not the right side of history. He's on the wrong side. And he's also on the wrong side of the Constitution. The Supreme Court is not going to hear this case, in spite of what Reverend Schenck wants, in no small measure because this judge has said federal courts don't have any authority over me. If you don't tell me I can do what I want, I'll do it anyway. That's unclean hands to present to the court.

O'BRIEN: Reverend Schenck, why so much emphasis on this? There's so many other important issues of the day to be focused on a two-and-a-half ton hunk of granite that sat there in that rotunda. Was this in some way a waste of time for everybody involved?

SCHENCK: Absolutely not. This is not about a granite sculpture. This is about a very important constitutional principle, and that is the right of the people to express themselves religiously or otherwise under the first amendment. The people of the state of Alabama have that right.

What has happened here is that a federal judge has trampled on those rights, and that cannot be tolerated. And we have a man who has made a very articulate constitutional argument for what he is doing under both the state and federal Constitutions. That's the right thing. That's the kind of moral courage that we need in public leaders.

O'BRIEN: Reverend Lynn, go ahead.

LYNN: Rob, here's the point. These fringe legal arguments that the Bill of Rights doesn't apply to the state of Alabama and all the other nonsensical arguments that the judge has made have already been repudiated, not by one federal judge, but by four federal judges already. And that is completely consistent with what the Supreme Court has said in this matter.

Rob Schenck ought to know, and I think he does, that we don't take a kind of public opinion poll of which people, which religion, the biggest one gets to win, gets to put its symbols up in courthouses and public buildings. We respect the right of religious minorities, and even though Reverend Schenck and myself share the same religious views, the difference, I guess, is that I don't feel that the government, including elected judges in Alabama, are necessary to the promotion of the faith.

That's up to members of the clergy. That's up to local churches. There are 350 right around that courthouse.

SCHENCK: But Reverend Lynn, if you'll permit me by following your argument, then you are also challenging the very bedrock of our moral concepts of government. For example, our national motto is, "In God We Trust."

LYNN: One of them is.

SCHENCK: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) to one nation under god. And the Supreme Court every time it sits offers a prayer to god, "God save the United States and this honorable court."

O'BRIEN: Reverend Schenck...

(CROSSTALK)

SCHENCK: Do these need to be challenged just as well?

O'BRIEN: Reverend Schenck, isn't it true that just by virtue of the protest that has been generated through all of this, you could declare a victory and go home at this point and just say that this proves that there is tremendous religious belief and fervor in this state and then move on to other things?

SCHENCK: Well, we're not planning to go home. We're here to stay. And in fact, we're asking more people to come. And we have information that a whole lot of people are on their way.

In fact, Dr. James Dobson has joined this effort, will be here tomorrow. Alan Keyes and other national leaders who are calling people to come to Montgomery. It's important to take a stand here.

Look, the Supreme Court hasn't yet heard this case. It was erroneously reported that the Supreme Court had turned this case down.

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: Reverend Schenck, are you going to stay there until the Supreme Court hears your case?

SCHENCK: Well, you know, one doesn't know. We're just going to take it day by day. There's a lot of leaders here in Montgomery who are taking a stance.

LYNN: You know, this is absolutely...

SCHENCK: This is important enough that people not give in at this point.

LYNN: ... preposterous.

SCHENCK: And we are resolved to stay.

O'BRIEN: All right. Reverend Lynn, go.

LYNN: Yes. This is absolutely preposterous. The United States Supreme Court is not going to take a case where the judge says, if you don't rule my way I'm not going to listen to you anyway.

You've been trying to bring people down there for weeks now. And frankly, more people show up at an average Alabama high school football game than have shown up at your rallies. I respect your commitment, but you've got it misplaced.

If this was a privately placed monument, if this was on the lawn of Judge Roy Moore's home and some bureaucrat tried to take it away, I'd be with you. It's not. It's in a public building that is supposed to...

(CROSSTALK)

O'BRIEN: All right, gentlemen.

SCHENCK: Reverend Lynn, are you going to go after the artwork in the Capitol next?

LYNN: No. I'm certainly not. And if you can't tell the difference between an artistic (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and a two-and-a-half ton granite monument, I think you have a serious problem of cognition here. This was intended to promote religion. That's what the judge said. It's not an artistic historical representation.

(CROSSTALK)

SCHENCK: This is an acknowledgement of god, perfectly constitutional, just as our national motto, "In God We Trust" is.

O'BRIEN: All right. No sense thinking we're going to change anybody's mind at this juncture in this time frame that we have. Reverends Barry Lynn and Rob Schenck, thank you both for being with us to bat it around yet one more time.

LYNN: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: We appreciate it.

Here's another look at our Web Question of the Day for you. Is the moving of the Ten Commandments monument a victory or a defeat for the United States? We'll have the results a little later in the broadcast. We invite you to vote now, cnn.com/wolf is the place.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: One day after a scathing report on the Shuttle Columbia disaster, NASA administrator Sean O'Keefe says "Shuttle flights will resume when we are fit to fly." All seven astronauts on board were killed as Columbia broke up on re-entry over Texas last February.

In a 248-page report by the independent Columbia accident investigation board, blame for the accident was placed squarely on NASA. The report said that unless NASA changes what it called its "broken safety culture," more shuttles and astronauts will be lost.

Sean O'Keefe is the administrator of NASA. He joins us now live to discuss the report and what's next for NASA. Mr. O'Keefe, good to have you with us.

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: Thank you, Miles Nice to see you, too.

O'BRIEN: You said today that NASA gets it. Didn't NASA say it got it after Challenger? What's going to be different this time?

O'KEEFE: Well, I've been here for a little over a year now. And so speaking to the previous history in that regard I think is not nearly as important as thinking about what the future is going to be. And in that respect, we are positively committed to accepting all the findings and implementing and complying with all the recommendations. And that's the direction we have to take.

That's the focus we must be dedicated to. And we've got to go about it with as much courage and diligence as the Columbia families have been in dealing with their challenges of dealing with this terrible accident as well. So if we resolve to do as well as that, I think we'll do very well.

O'BRIEN: That's a tall order and undoubtedly a steep price tag. No dollar signs yet affixed to all that in that 248-page report. It's probably not the best time in the world to be going to Congress and asking for more money, is it?

O'KEEFE: Well, it never is. And any time you ask the taxpayers of the United States, the American public to step up and provide resources for exploration or discovery opportunities, we have a requirement and a need to justify everything we ask for. And I think this will be no different.

O'BRIEN: All right. What happens when the shuttle fleet can no longer fly? One of the areas discussed in this report is just that fact. And it's very harsh on the fact that there really is no viable next generation alternative in the works.

Talking about something would take many, many years to build and cost many billions of dollars. And yet there is nothing in the pipeline. Is NASA prepared to begin something in earnest that will put something in space with people, without using the shuttle?

O'KEEFE: Well, there's two things to that, Miles. I think, first of all, the board was very, very clear in saying there's nothing structurally hazard about flying this amazing piece of machinery. If we exercise the diligence, if we restore the safety culture that we've always been known for and assure that we do this with great deliberation, this asset can be made to fly for some time to come.

What they did suggest is that if we extended beyond the beginning of the next decade, that there's really a demand, a requirement to re- certify all the aspects of the orbiter to assure that. That notwithstanding, it is a 1970's technology that has been upgraded and improved and constantly re-evaluated all the way through to this date. But we do need to look at a future asset that will supplement and complement that capability.

The president's budget includes a crew transfer vehicle, the orbital space plane, which we're planning to go out and solicit to the industry for innovative creative ideas on how to do that in very short order. As a matter of fact, it's already under way in terms of laying out the requirements and the demands we'll have for that capability. And we'll see what comes back here in the very few short months ahead.

O'BRIEN: Have you heard from the family members since the release of the report? What have they said, and have you apologized on behalf of NASA to them?

O'KEEFE: Absolutely. I think from the very first day there is no way to express sufficient apology, remorse. And I think just the sense of accountability and responsibility we have for the loss of those remarkable people to those courageous families. I mean, they have been just amazing.

I have not had an occasion to speak to Ellen Husband (ph) or to any of the other crew families in the last 36 to 48 hours, but we stay in very close touch. And I'm hopeful when we get a chance to get down to Houston to see them here in the few short days ahead. But they have handled this with extraordinary courage and they've been an inspiration to all of us.

O'BRIEN: They probably have a fair amount of right and claim to anger and bitterness. How does NASA feel about that?

O'KEEFE: Well, there's no question. I mean, I don't know that I or anybody I know could have withstood and have stood up to and dealt with the depth of this tragedy that will be a lifetime of realization that this is a lost loved one forever as well as they have. And so, by all rights and by all understanding, certainly have cause and justification for feeling and anger and bitterness.

But I've been astounded to see how courageous and inspiring they are in the manner in which they have worked through this very, very diligently and very philosophically to understand the larger exploration objectives their loved ones dedicated their lives to. It's amazing. I am very inspired by these folks. They're amazing.

O'BRIEN: About out of time. I am just curious if you know when you'll be flying again.

O'KEEFE: Well, when we're fit to fly. I think we've really got to go through the hardware corrections that were identified in the report, and then we've got to make all these process changes that I think the report and the board very diligently spent time examining. We've got to be equally diligent in picking the right options and looking at that in the time ahead. So when we're ready to do that, that's when we're going to fly.

O'BRIEN: NASA administrator, Sean O'Keefe, thanks for your time.

O'KEEFE: Thank you, Miles.

O'BRIEN: Over the skies of northern Virginia today, a flight back in time. An example of the nation's first jetliner completed its final voyage, landing near the Smithsonian Institution's new Air and Space Museum annex at Dulles International Airport.

The Boeing 367-80 was a prototype that would become known just as the -80 (ph). It revolutionized commercial air travel in the 1950s, when a fully developed version called the 707 -- remember that one -- took to the skies. The plane that landed today was retired from service in 1972. Boeing restored the aircraft, donated it to the Smithsonian, complete with its plywood elevators.

More pollution, more efficiency, or both? The Bush administration is rolling back some pollution rules on older power plants, prompting warnings from environmentalists and reassurances from the EPA. CNN's Kathleen Koch with our story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The new EPA rule removes requirements that power plants, refineries and other factors install more pollution controls when they make upgrades that could pollute the air. Now those changes can go ahead without any measures to cut emissions. The Environmental Protection Agency insists U.S. air quality overall will continue to improve, though it admits that under the new rule power plants could emit more certain pollutants.

JEFF HOLMSTEAD, EPA: It will either have a very minor decrease or a very minor increase. That's if you ignore all the other programs. But if you look at the other programs, emissions will continue to come down over time.

KOCH: Clean air advocates say that's not the case.

FRANK O'DONNELL, CLEAN AIR TRUST: It would enable big smokestack industries like refineries, like coal-fired power plants to emit more pollution. That's going to mean more public health damage, more breathing problems for people, more people dying prematurely. It's a tremendous setback for clean air.

KOCH: But power industry groups say upgrades will make plants two to three percent more efficient, helping prevent a repeat of the mid-August blackout.

SCOTT SEGAL, ELECTRIC RELIABILITY COORDINATING COUNCIL: If you allow maintenance projects to proceed at these facilities, it is a way to help them prevent pollution and to become more reliable players in the electric grid. That's extremely important.

KOCH: Coal-fired power plants, the most potentially polluting facilities impacted by the new rule, are located predominantly in the South and Midwest. But any particulates or acid rain they produce generally end up down wind in states largely in the Northeast. Most of those states get very little of their energy from coal and plan to fight the new EPA rule in court.

PETER LEHNER, NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE: This rule is not doing what the states want. This administration claims to care about states' rights, but with this rule they are ignoring the states and doing what the states have desperately begged them not to do.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOCH: Environmental groups and many states call the new rule an assault on environmental protections. But the Bush administration and the industries effected rather see it as a smart move to increase efficiency and reduce bureaucracy -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: CNN's Kathleen Koch, thank you very much.

It is 5:47. Do you know where John Hinckley is? At a mental hospital here in Washington. They should know full well, but if Ronald Reagan's attempted assassin has his way, he could be out on his own without supervision.

First, the answer to today's news quiz.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) O'BRIEN (voice-over): Earlier, we asked: what was the first orbiter to fly in space? The answer: Space Shuttle Columbia, which made its debut in April of 1981.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: John Hinckley Jr., the would-be assassin of former President Ronald Reagan, is making a new push for more freedom. And the issue, which could be decided just days from now, already is stirring controversy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Twenty-one years of confinement and treatment and still heated debate over the mental health of one John W. Hinckley Jr. The man who tried to kill President Ronald Reagan now reportedly wants permission to make unsupervised overnight visits to his parents' house in Williamsburg, Virginia. "The Washington Post" reports a hearing is scheduled for next week on the request.

Hinckley's attorneys have filed court papers saying his psychosis and depression have been in full remission for a decade and he does not pose a danger to himself or others. Prosecutors in the Washington D.C. Department of Mental Health are against the idea, and they are not the only ones.

In a letter posted on newsweek.com, President Reagan's daughter, Patty Davis, writes "I am not objective about this story. How could I be? This man tried to kill my father and almost succeeded. I don't believe for a second that John Hinckley is no longer mentally ill."

Neither do the attorneys for the government who have collided with Hinckley and his attorney for many years now. Davis adds, "I also don't believe that mental illness means a person is not also extremely smart, deceptive and calculating."

Hinckley was found not guilty by reason of insanity for the shootings in March 1981 of President Reagan and three others. Since 1982, he's been confined to the grounds of St. Elizabeth's Hospital in Washington. But for the past three years he has been allowed to make several supervised trips off hospital grounds. Those excursions have always been monitored by hospital staff and FBI and Secret Service agents.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Former Justice Department official Victoria Toensing with me now from Washington to talk more about this new development in the Hinckley case. Her husband prosecuted Hinckley, by the way, and she was involved in the case in writing some of the briefs that were involved in all that. Good to have...

VICTORIA TOENSING, FMR. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: About the insanity defense. O'BRIEN: All right. Let's talk about this insanity defense. I mean, when the verdict is thus, that he is put in a mental hospital, eventually it can be proven that a person is healthy and that person should be allowed a measure of freedom, right? Isn't that the way it's supposed to go?

TOENSING: Well, it does for some people. But there are some people that have a mental sickness such that we must admit that they may never be cured. John Hinckley, as you just saw in the clip, shot four people, four public servants, and forever ruined James Brady's life, almost killed the president of the United States, nullifying an election.

And why did he do it? And that's the important thing here. Because not only was he delusional, but he was delusional using violence to carry out his delusion.

His heroes were assassins. That's who he admired most and that's who he wanted to be like. He studied the shooting of John Lennon. That was somebody that he admired.

O'BRIEN: All right. Well, is there any doctor's opinion in the world that would make you feel that he no longer has such delusions?

TOENSING: I don't know. But what's important here is that the doctors even at St. Elizabeth's oppose his release without supervision. So, I mean, that's an important factor. Forget the public policy reasons, which we can get into, but the doctors.

And the doctors at St. Elizabeth's about a decade ago, when he was trying to get out, supported his getting out. And do you know what happened? Do you know the history of that?

They were very supportive, and then all of a sudden they found out that he was writing letters to mass murders...

O'BRIEN: I remember that.

TOENSING: ... to Charles Manson and Ted Bundy. And why was he doing that? Those were his heroes.

O'BRIEN: Well, is the issue, is he a menace to society? Is that all that matters? Or should the wishes of the Reagan family be taken into account here?

TOENSING: Well, I don't think just the wishes of the Reagan family. But I think it's very important for us to consider, or for the court to consider, because that's who is going to decide it, is a judge, that we are saying that he's being asked to be let loose in the very city where there is a president, and that was his whole purpose of his gaining fame and notoriety was to kill a president of the United States. I mean, it's not like we're letting him loose in the mountains of Colorado, but in Washington, D.C., where there is a President of the United States.

O'BRIEN: So do you suspect his chances are good at all, forgetting this measure of freedom?

TOENSING: I would think since the doctors and the prosecution oppose it, it's probably somewhere between nil and zip.

O'BRIEN: And yet, nevertheless, here we are discussing it many years later.

TOENSING: I think it's a bit of history.

O'BRIEN: All right. Victoria Toensing, thanks very much. Appreciate your insights on all of this.

Once again, we asked John Hinckley's attorney to talk to us about this issue. He had no comment for us.

Our Hot Web question of the day is this: Is the moving of the Ten Commandments monument a victory or defeat for the U.S.? Vote now at cnn.com/wolf. We'll give you some results for you when you come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: In Los Angeles today, another wild car chase to tell you about. It ended at a busy intersection, when authorities say the man tried to car-jack several other vehicles. He didn't do that. He then tried to hide behind a woman, and a child, as he was tackled by deputies. Obviously not too courageous there.

Authorities say they believe the suspect had kidnapped the woman and two children. The baby was handed out of the car when it stopped on a residential street in the midst of that pursuit.

Now, here's how you are weighing in on our Web Question of the Day. We've been asking you this: Is moving the Ten Commandments monument a victory or defeat for the United States. Fifty-seven percent of you said victory. Forty-three percent of you said defeat. And as we always tell you, thou shalt not interpret this as a scientific poll.

You can find the exact vote tally, by the way, and continue to vote. Keep on voting if you like on our Web site at cnn.com/wolf.

Let's hear from some of what you've been saying in your e-mails.

Johnnie writes this: "What is next? They remove prayer from schools and now the Ten Commandments from the courthouse. The Commandments are laws that deal with the morals of man. Where is a more fitting place to display these laws than a courthouse?"

But Margaret has this counterpoint. "Allowing the Ten Commandments, the law book of one specific religion, to remain in the courthouse would be a de facto establishment of a state-sponsored religion in direct contravention of the Bill of Rights."

A reminder: you can always watch WOLF BLITZER REPORTS weekdays at 5:00 Eastern, and you can also catch us weekdays at noon Eastern.

I'll see you again tomorrow at this time. Until then, thanks for joining us.

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