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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Hinckley Gets Unsupervised Visits; U.S. Troops Sweep Up Saddam's Loyalists; Will Hussein Talk?

Aired December 17, 2003 - 17:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now, a legal shocker. President Ronald Reagan's shooter able to go out on unsupervised visits. Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Crackdown. The troops sweep up Saddam's loyalists, but the die-hards aren't done.

Squeezing Saddam. Can interrogators make him talk? We'll put him on the coach with a psychiatrist who worked for the CIA.

Riding high. President Bush gets a boost from the capture of Saddam. We'll hear from the former President Bush.

GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With one magical moment...

BLITZER: And I'll speak with a wannabe president, Democrat Joe Lieberman.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Wednesday, December 17, 2003.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Only within the past hour, a surprising decision from a federal judge here in Washington. The man who tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan and who shot three other people, including press secretary James Brady, John Hinckley, Jr. will be allowed to make unsupervised visits. Our justice correspondent Kelli Arena will be joining us shortly. She has details.

First, though, Iraq. It doesn't stop with Saddam Hussein. Following the capture of the ex-dictator, U.S. troops have launched a major crackdown, sealing off a hotbed of guerrilla activity. Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in the town of Samarra with the story and some exclusive pictures -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Operation Ivy Blizzard is the largest coalition operation to target anti-coalition insurgents. In the last six months, 3,000 troops sealed off the town of Samarra in the early hours of the morning. They were backed up by F-16 aircraft, C-130 gunships, they were backed by Apache helicopters, Bradley fighting vehicles, Abrams tanks out on the streets.

What we know is that so far this effort in the town of Samarra has netted at least 30 Iraqis. They're all being detained at this time. The coalition commanders we've talked to have said this process, this Operation Ivy Blizzard isn't just about tackling the insurgents, who they say they want to control, they say they want to stop them communicating, stop them planning other operations, but they say it's also about putting money into the town of Samarra, helping build a council, helping get a reliable police force going, and hoping to convince the people of this Sunni town that has been falling behind the other towns in Iraq, it hasn't been developing as much, it has had a high rate of insurgency against U.S. troops, getting this town back on track.

What we have seen at this base tonight is what we have seen some of those detainees, picked up in the early hours of today, picked up on the day before, 93 of them, now being held at this base for processing. Coalition officials are saying they hope through talking to these individuals they're going to develop timely information that will allow them to go out as early as tomorrow morning and try and pick up other people, but to get out on further raids, using information from these people -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic, is it your sense that this is only just the beginning in the so-called Sunni triangle?

ROBERTSON: It is. And this town of Samarra is a town that presented the coalition with many problems. It has had complex attacks waged against U.S. troops here in the past. There have been intense gun battles between U.S. troops and the people of Samarra. This effort is a long, ongoing effort. There are now checkpoints around this town to screen people coming in and leaving the town so that the coalition can begin to control much better the situation in Samarra, determine whether or not -- or determine what these anti- coalition insurgents are able to do. They want to shut them down in this town, they say, once and for all.

This is the beginning of the process. If it works here, it can be applied elsewhere.

Wolf, what we also know is that they are applying lessons learned elsewhere. They say by putting the money in, as well as putting the security in, putting the money into the town is an effective way of convincing people they want to help -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Nic Robertson reporting from on the scene in Samarra. Nic, thank you very much.

For a time today, it looked like terrorists had carried out another horrific attack right in the heart of Baghdad when a fuel truck exploded right next to a passenger bus. CNN's Satinder Bindra is in the Iraqi capital with the latest on that incident.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S. military now says an explosion that rocked Baghdad earlier this morning was not a bomb, but it was an accident. The U.S. military says a fuel truck actually crashed into another vehicle, and then blew up. But earlier today, Iraqi police told CNN that a mobile bomb in the form of a truck carrying explosives was headed towards an Iraqi police station. However, before it got to the police station, Iraqi police said these explosives on the truck detonated prematurely. The truck detonated right in the middle of a busy intersection. Ten people were killed and 16 people injured.

Those who were injured were taken to the hospital, and several people in hospital have serious burn injuries.

(on camera): Also, just to the west of Baghdad, U.S. forces have discovered a huge store of weapons. They found just to the west of Baghdad some missile launchers, some rocket-propelled grenades. And they have also found some land mines.

Satinder Bindra, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Satinder.

They were sworn to secrecy, at least for a while. But now the troops who captured Saddam Hussein are sharing their own pictures taken right after their big victory. CNN's Alphonso Van Marsh has the story of the Raider Brigade from Tikrit.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALPHONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Days after the raid that led to the capture of the former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, there's still a lot of buzz here at the 4th Infantry Division Raider base. Over the weekend, we showed you these exclusive pictures of 4th Infantry Division troops coming back from that raid. We saw military leadership kind of giving a pep talk to the forces that were involved. We also saw soldiers taking out cameras and taking pictures to kind of remember this historic event.

Now, later on, we actually got access to some new images. Again, a first with CNN. Images taken by the troops themselves. With these troops, we actually see the soldiers looking a little bit dazed and confused. That's because the leading commander, Colonel James Hickey, just told his subordinates that their raid was a success and, indeed, they did capture Saddam Hussein.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was living like a pig, literally hiding in a hole, OK? Again, nobody mentions anything. Got it?

VAN MARSH (on camera): That warning coming from Colonel Hickey reminding his subordinates about operational security. That's a military term basically limiting soldiers from telling their friends and family about this historic event until the military top brass made a formal announcement. Back to you, Wolf.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: Alfonso Van Marsh, doing a very, very courageous job reporting for us on the scene in Iraq.

With the capture of Saddam Hussein, a once burning question is being asked anew, where are the weapons of mass destruction? The search so far has stalled. But can Saddam Hussein provide some new leads? Joining us here in Washington, our national security correspondent, David Ensor -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, as you know, because you talked to some of them, too, knowledgeable officials in this matter privately concede that this search has not gone well. They have not found weapons of mass destruction. David Kay, who is the CIA man in charge of it, is home for the holidays. His team in Iraq has been cut back and personnel shifted to the efforts against insurgents, for fairly obvious reasons. Partly for personal reasons, it is not entirely clear that David Kay will be returning to Iraq. There are discussions this week over at the CIA over what the next step should be in the hunt for weapons in Iraq.

As for Saddam, so far all they're getting from him is denials, denials that there were any -- that there are any weapons of mass destruction remaining. One question is whether or not his capture might convince Iraqi scientists to talk, and that is a possibility. There are officials in the administration who are hoping that people will feel less fearful now that Saddam is in coalition hands.

President Bush and his advisers are counseling patience. Mr. Bush said in an interview yesterday there are no weapons found. Very pointedly, he said yet. He kept using that word "yet." Secretary Rumsfeld says there may be more than one hiding hole in the ground in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: And in your mind's eye, picture the hole he was in. That hole was, what, six and a half feet by eight feet or 10 feet, in the dirt, and think of the quantity of biological weapons that could fit in that hole alone, could kill tens of thousands of human beings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ENSOR: But Kay has only found evidence of weapons programs thus far, blueprints, components, dual use labs, and a missile program that cheated on U.N. rules. But he has found still no actual weapons. And his report is due in June. So there is a little time to go yet. Whether it will be him delivering it or someone else is not clear at this point.

BLITZER: I'm sure David Kay, you and I know him, must be very, very frustrated, like so many other U.S. officials. The search, though, will continue. David, thanks very much.

Here is your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our Web question of the day is this: Do you think U.S. interrogators will gain useful information from Saddam Hussein? You can vote right now. Go to cnn.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast.

While you're there, I'd love to hear directly from you. Send me your comments. I will try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also where you can read my daily online column, cnn.com/wolf.

And this important programming note. Please join us tonight for a one-hour special live broadcast from Iraq. CNN's Bill Hemmer, Jane Arraf and Nic Robertson will all join Paula Zahn for a look at where the country is going after Saddam Hussein and what the future holds for the former Iraqi dictator. That's tonight, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, PAULA ZAHN NOW.

Breaking his self-imposed silence, the first President Bush speaks out on Saddam Hussein.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Great pride for a father, but far more important a wonderful blessing for our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And it came just in time. Hear why the current president needed to make up with his dad.

Plus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know our son and we know what he's about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: In defense of Kobe Bryant, a father's firm opinion.

And muddy tribute. Why this reenactment of the first flight is anything but picture perfect. All that, much more.

First, though, the news quiz. The longest of the four lights made December 17, 1903, by the Wright brothers lasted how long? Twelve seconds, 59 seconds, two minutes 14 seconds, three minutes 32 seconds. The answer later in the show.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: For all the global implications of capturing Saddam Hussein, it is also a very personal triumph for one father and son who share the name George Bush. Our national correspondent Bob Franken is here to pick up the human part of this story -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's not too often, Wolf, that something that has such huge global implications could be such a family affair.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) FRANKEN (voice-over): This will surprise absolutely no one, but now that President Bush the elder knows that President Bush the younger's military forces captured Saddam Hussein...

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: You know, this one Christmas time when Barbara and I are overjoyed.

FRANKEN: After all, this was the man who had targeted the former president for assassination as he was traveling overseas in 1993. Even though Bush I had stopped the first Gulf War without deposing Saddam.

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Great pride for a father, but far more importantly a wonderful blessing for our country. So it was one magical moment, made up for the fact that he invited me to Thanksgiving and didn't even show up for Thanksgiving dinner, because he was in Baghdad.

FRANKEN: The critics of the latest Iraq war have often charged that it was to some degree a personal indulgence of a son getting revenge for an attack against his father.

While the president has never agreed with that...

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein.

FRANKEN: As for that confused Bush Thanksgiving...

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Ate a lot. A luncheon prepared for 12. Five of us did it in. I took a nap. Had turkey sandwiches, went to bed, and at 5:00 the next morning, a knock on the door. Dad, let's go fishing. He was back from Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Don't you miss that syntax, Wolf? The syntax? That was Thanksgiving, but of course, now also one of the gifts that the elder Bush is getting for Christmas.

BLITZER: Very interesting indeed. A father/son story from the two presidents. Thanks very much, Bob Franken, for that report.

Trying for the truth. What will it take to get Saddam Hussein to speak? We'll look at the ingenuity of interrogation. Also, this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADONNA, ENTERTAINER: As it stands right now, he's got my support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Madonna's choice for president. Plus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Howard Dean doesn't think we're safer with this guy in prison. I'm afraid Howard Dean has climbed into his own spider hole of denial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: One-on-one with the candidate Joe Lieberman. Has Saddam Hussein helped his run for the White House? All that, much more coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: With Saddam Hussein in custody, the United States now potentially has access to information that could aid in the war on terror, the search for weapons of mass destruction and help increase coalition security. The key, though, is getting Saddam Hussein to talk. CNN's Jennifer Coggiola is joining us with more on what interrogating methods that might entail.

JENNIFER COGGIOLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Donald Rumsfeld announced this week that the CIA, whose questioning of al Qaeda operatives have produced a great deal of useful information, will also take the lead in the questioning of the former Iraqi leader.

But with a man like Saddam, they could have their work cut out for them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COGGIOLA (voice-over): The interrogation process, crucial for gaining information, challenging on a man like Saddam Hussein.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: He may be a schoolyard bully who ends up being a total coward. That's going to be up to the interrogation team to try to shape his mind and get him to the point where cooperate.

COGGIOLA: One of the widely used methods called direct approach, simply asking the prisoner, did you do it, has proven to be surprisingly effective. Why, because so many of these captives are terrified. In Saddam's case, the direct approach may not be enough.

ROBINSON: This is an individual who spent 30 years as the intimidator, as a god figure. So his ego, his pride could be sources which will make it difficult to interrogate him.

COGGIOLA: But psychological methods including mind games could work to wear down his will and get him to cooperate. For example, convincing him he has something to gain by cooperating

ROBINSON: It might be fear of what his outcome may be, especially if he is a war criminal facing a death penalty or it might hate or might be his pride and his ego.

COGGIOLA: Other techniques could be the stress and duress method, used according to U.S. sources against al Qaeda mastermind Abu Zubaydah (ph). For example, standing or kneeling for hours or making them wear black hoods or spray painted goggles to confuse the captive. Then there's sleep deprivation.

REP. PORTER GOSS (R), FLORIDA: Ask any mother or father of a new child in this country about sleep deprivation, and they can tell you something about sleep deprivation. It does puts you off your mark a little bit. And yet, it is not torture. It's just you're not operating at your best.

COGGIOLA: One of the most effective methods, threatening to send a captive to a country where they do not follow the rules of the Geneva Convention.

ROBINSON: He can cooperate with you or he can cooperate with the Saudis or he may cooperate with the Egyptians or some other third world country where they are not constrained by the land of law warfare.

COGGIOLA: But is anything really fool proof?

ROBINSON: There is no surefire silver bullet. They simply go through those and try to apply and tailor an approach specificly for the targeted source. In this case, Saddam.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COGGIOLA: Reports at this point are that Saddam's demeanor has been resigned since his capture Saturday night, and he is being treated humanely. Although he has been accorded the protection of a POW, he is not being legally described as one at this point -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jennifer Coggiola with that. Jennifer, thank you very much.

For more on the interrogation of Saddam Hussein, I'm joined by two guests -- Dr. Jerrold Post, he's a former CIA profiler who pioneered the field of political psychology. He now directs that program at George Washington University here in the nation's capital. Also joining us, retired U.S. Air Force Colonel John Rothrock. He's a former military interrogator for the CIA and he was chief of combat interrogation during the Vietnam War. Gentleman, thanks very much for joining us.

To both of you, let's pretend the U.S. Government says -- the CIA says to you, colonel, we need your help. You are sent over to interrogate Saddam Hussein. Tell us what you would do when you first confront him.

COL. JOHN ROTHROCK, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): First off, I would have wanted to be prepared with a psychological profile, such as Dr. Post would have prepared. And then I would also want that profile to be updated and brought into the real world, so to speak, by -- in order to let me know what the mind is that I'm working with right now.

BLITZER: So even before you ask the first question, you want to thoroughly be brief on exactly his psychology. Well, Dr. Post, you used to do that when you worked at the CIA. You used to prepare the psychological profiles. You have done a lot of work studying Saddam Hussein. If they called you back, what would you do?

DR. JERROLD POST, FORMER CIA TERRORISM PROFILER: I would say one has to tailor the interrogation to the particular and unique psychology of this man. This is a man who has been intensely proud of being a defiant hero for the radical Arab world. And he is already, despite the reports of his being resigned, apparently being rather sarcastic and reconstituting his usual defiant self after that initial broken man we saw. I would play to his ego. I think, it is crucial not to be coming on hardball with him, but, rather, to be playing to his swollen, inflated ego.

BLITZER: You know what the general psychology would be. Give us a little sense of how an interrogation, colonel, would go.

ROTHROCK: I believe that what I would do, I would start off with what we call good cop, bad cop where the initial confrontation you would have with a U.S. interrogator would be pretty negative. And then..

BLITZER: The tough cop?

ROTHROCK: Yes. The tough guy. Then bring in the good cop. And then he good cop would talk to him in more conciliatory tone, just trying to get some confidence developed with him and, also, trying to feel like what constitutes hope within his mind as it is constituted.

BLITZER: Dr. Post, would that work, the good cop, bad cop routine?

Does it have potential?

POST: This is a very shrewd guy. We did see a glimpse momentarily a broken man. One of the questions, what can we really offer him, in fact?

As I've thought about the choice between life without parole and a super max prison versus the death sentence, I'm not sure life without parole wouldn't be a more threatening end him, a humiliated end in shackles and irons. So, it is not clear what we can offer him.

BLITZER: What about the use of some force, not torture, but the sleep deprivation, some of the other elements we've heard that occasionally are used?

ROTHROCK: I think that you have to be careful about that for several reasons. No. 1, contrary to how he appeared when he was apprehended...

BLITZER: He looked like a punk.

ROTHROCK: ... this guy is a pretty tough customer, as is proven over his 40, 50 years of career of violence and mayhem. No. 2, this process by which we handle and exploit him as an intelligence source and also prepare a criminal case against him is going to be subjected to unprecedented international scrutiny. I think we have to be very, very careful that we don't come off as having been brought by him down to his level rather than being able to maintain a certain set of standards that make us different from him.

BLITZER: What if they were to say to him, theoretically, hypothetically, Dr. Post, you know what The Kuwaitis would really love to talk to you. We're going to send you to the Kuwaitis. Even worst, the Israelis would like to talk to you.

How would he respond to that head game if the U.S. would threaten him in some sort of way?

POST: I don't see this man easily yielding. His whole life has been living up to these dreams of glory, living up to be a successor to Nasser. And this tough guy image that the colonel spoke of, I believe, is something he's going to hold to. In fact, I believe if he comes to a trial he will probably follow the path of a Milosevic, speaking defiantly to capture his still-present followers.

BLITZER: So basicly, what you're saying colonel is there is no real silver bullet that's going to crack this guy right away. It will take a long amount of time?

ROTHROCK: I think it is going to take a long amount of time. But I also think you could bring in a third interrogator who would be able talk to him in his own language. And with total fluency. I think that's what we really have to do. And that guy would develop a rapport with him that would be different and outside of the interrogation process. And you might gain his trust.

BLITZER: It sounds like an Iraqi would be the best person -- a really smart Iraqi who knows Saddam...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: ... whom the U.S. Government could totally trust.

POST: Let me speak to that point. I think this is absolutely crucial. We've just finished a project, debriefing incarcerated senior terrorists in Israeli and Palestinian prisons. Playing to their sense of pride in what they accomplished. Playing, for example, to how Saddam was able to outwit the U.N. inspection team to leave us empty handed during our searches. I think there is a slight possibility that this could be something we could lead him into an even boastful position.

BLITZER: All right, fascinating subject. We can continue, unfortunately we're out of time for this segment.

Dr. Post, as usually, thank you very much.

Colonel, appreciate it very much.

It's doctor's orders. Why President Bush now has a medical visit on his agenda. We'll give you the details that's coming up.

Also, Lieberman unleashed. He's taking jabs at his opponents and blasting the president. Is he the Democrat's best hope to take on George Bush? I will speak with the senator, that's coming up.

Will John Hinckley Jr. be allowed to visit his parents unsupervised?

The surprising decision only within the past hour. Our Kelli Arena, she's standing by with details.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. Did the capture of Saddam Hussein hurt the Democrat's chance of winning the White House in 2004? I'll ask presidential hopeful Joe Lieberman, that's coming up live.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

(NEWSBREAK)

BLITZER: Turning to Iraq. The United States Military says a soldier was killed and another wounded when their patrol came under small arms fire in Baghdad. Elsewhere, U.S. troops are taking the fight to the enemy in a wide ranging crackdown on insurgents.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): In the heart of hostile territory between Tikrit and Baghdad, U.S. troops from the army's 4th Infantry Division seal of the city of Samarra, a hornet's nest for insurgents. In the early morning, they go house to house and detain 30 suspects. This brings the number captured to about 100 in two days just from Samarra.

COL. FREDERICK RUDESHEIM, U.S. ARMY: The city of Samarra has been a point of friction over time. It's been, at times, very quiet, at times, somewhat unstable. It has needed this focus and in the eyes of the division leadership.

BLITZER: This is the same division that captured Saddam Hussein on Saturday. Today, newly released home video shows the commander of that operation speaking bluntly to his troops immediately after Saddam's capture.

COL. JAMES HICKEY, U.S. ARMY: He was living like a pig, literally hiding in a hole. OK. Again, nobody mentions anything. Got it?

BLITZER: In the northern city of Mosul U.S. soldiers kill three attackers attempting a drive-by shooting. Elsewhere, soldiers confiscate substantial weapon caches in Ramadi and other towns.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: The capture of Saddam Hussein has given President Bush a boost, at least in our poll. A new CNN /"USA Today/Gallup Poll shows a jump in the presidents overall job approval ratings. This week after news broke of Saddam's capture, 63 percent expressed approval. Last week, 54 percent of those polled said they approved of the president's performance.

John Hinckley hears important news in court. It is a big victory for the man who shot Ronald Reagan.

We'll tell what you it is and what it means.

Also ahead...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BRYANT, KOBE BRYANT'S FATHER: He's a special young man. He's worldly, very intelligent, and I think he'll get through all this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Defending Kobe Bryant, this time, it's not his lawyers. Hear more of what his father says about his son.

Home from the Hague. Wesley Clark talks about his trips to the Netherlands and his time at the trial of Slobodan Milosevic.

All of that coming up.

But first though, a quick at other news making headlines "Around the World."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Positive move by Iran. From Tehran word of more progress in the effort to get Iran to open its nuclear program to international inspections. The Iran's nuclear chief says his country will sign an additional protocol to the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. That signing expected tomorrow. The deal calls for a robust inspection program, including snap inspections.

SARS returns. Taiwan is reporting a new case of SARS, months after the deadly outbreak was declared over. A medical researcher is in stable condition after coming down with the flu-like illness. SARS or Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome killed more than 800 people around the world this year.

Guilty of murder. A British jury today convicted former school caretaker of killing two school girls and the judge sentenced Ian Huntly (pH) to two life terms in prison. The girls disappeared last year after leaving a family barbecue.

Religious symbols banned. A controversy dividing France takes a new turn. President Jacques Chirac says he'll sponsor legislation that will ban religious symbols including Muslim head scarves, Jewish skull caps and large Christian crosses in public schools and hospitals. Mr. Chirac says the wearing of such symbols threatens the country's separation of church and state.

Father Christmas. As December 25th draws closer, a Finnish town is attracting tourists from all over. The town in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) claims to be the home of the real Santa Claus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jingle Bells. Jingle Bells. Jingle all the way.

BLITZER: That's our look "Around the World."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Fallen dictators and homeland security, both are key issues today for the Democratic presidential candidates on the campaign trail. For President Bush, it has been a day to pay tribute to a key moment in American history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Wesley Clark, in Concord, New Hampshire speaks to reporters about his just completed testimony in The Hague against accused war criminal Slobodan Milosevic. His message, I, too, can stare down a dictator. But he also weighed in on Saddam's fate.

WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In order for healing to begin, there first has to be justice. You can't take that justice away from the Iraqi people and have that healing process work.

BLITZER: We're not sure how it will play in the polls, but Clark gets one a high profile endorsement, from Madonna.

MADONNA, ENTERTAINER: I think he has a good handle on foreign policy. I think he's good with people. And I think he has a heart. And a consciousness. He's interested in spirituality. I mean, those things mean a lot to me.

BLITZER: John Kerry taking a break between swipes at Howard Dean tours the harbor at Portsmouth, New Hampshire and speaks of the urgent need for better port security.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is a point of opportunity in the war with terror for those who want to do us harm.

BLITZER: Howard Dean has no public events today, but CNN's John Mercurio reports Dean is quietly reaping crucial endorsements from Latino voters and officials. Mercurio says Dean has the backing of six of the 20 members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus.

Dennis Kucinich holds a news conference at Ohio's Democratic Party headquarters before officially filing to run in his home state's primary.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So we didn't go into Iraq with the purpose of knocking out Saddam Hussein. We went there to get weapons of mass destruction. Once we got in and there were no weapons of mass destruction, then they switch and said, well, we're going to get Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER: Senator John Edwards, cultivating support in two important states, he visits a church daycare center in Charleston, South Carolina, then heads north to Pennsylvania for fund-raisers.

As for President Bush, he has one eye on Southern voters, the other in the clouds, as he celebrates the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers' first flight.

GEORGE W. BUSH: By our skill and daring, America has excelled in every area of aviation and space travel.

BLITZER: And that's our look at the 2004 presidential candidates on the trail.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: There are some formidable numbers out there for Democratic presidential candidates. We're about to talk to one of them, Senator Joe Lieberman. A new CNN-"USA Today" Gallup Poll shows if Lieberman were to win his party's nomination, 38 percent of those asked would likely vote for him, while 59 percent say they'd lean toward President Bush. Senator Lieberman is joining us now from New Haven, Connecticut. Senator, those seem like pretty tough numbers, steep numbers if you got the Democratic presidential nomination, and that's a huge if, as you well know right now.

LIEBERMAN: Well, I don't think it's such a huge if, Wolf. Look, when I ran for the United States Senate here in Connecticut at this time in the campaign against the three-term Republican incumbent, I was 29 points behind. So there is almost a year until election day. A lot can happen. There is a natural lift that the president got as a result of the capture of Saddam Hussein, and I was the first one to say on Sunday morning, this is a day not to be a Republican or a Democrat, to be an American and all together celebrate this victory, capture of Saddam, and to honor the military of the United States who brought it about.

So there's a long time to go. And the president is going to have to answer a lot of questions in the reelection campaign. Why are we so disliked and distrusted in the world? Why are so many people at home out of work, 43 million without health insurance? You get the point, Wolf.

BLITZER: I get the point, Senator Lieberman.

Let's go to some other numbers out in this new CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll today. It shows among registered Democrats, Howard Dean gets 27 percent of the vote. You and Wesley Clark are down to 12 percent. Gephardt and Kerry at 7 percent. Why is Howard Dean resonating so powerfully with so many of your fellow Democrats?

LIEBERMAN: Look, this is an undecided campaign for the Democratic nomination. And the good news for American democracy is that it's not pollsters or polls or pundits that pick presidents. It's the people. And the people haven't started a vote yet. And it seems to me that in the last week, there's been a clarification of differences. And none are clearer than between Howard Dean and me.

This man would take us back to where the Democratic Party was before Bill Clinton, weak on security, big tax, big spend, and against trade, for walls of protectionism. I mean, after all, he said yesterday that America is no safer since Saddam has been captured. Now, if he really feels that...

BLITZER: Well, let me press you on that point, Senator Lieberman. Explain to our viewers why he's wrong. Why is he wrong? Why is America safer right now? Saddam Hussein was running around for the past few months, he was in a hole, literally. What could he do to the U.S.? Why is Howard Dean wrong when he says America is no safer? There are other, bigger problems out there for the U.S., including Osama bin Laden, North Korea, and other issues? That's what the thrust of his speech was on Monday.

LIEBERMAN: When you are a great nation, when you presume to want to be president of the greatest nation in the world, you can't deal with one problem at one time. Five years ago, in 1998, John McCain and I introduced the Iraq Liberation Act, because we reached a judgment. Saddam Hussein was a ticking time bomb that would go off and kill a lot of Americans until we stopped him, and that law called for a change of regime in Baghdad. The man was a brutal dictator. He supported terrorism. He hated the United States of America.

Of course, we're safer with him gone. Our soldiers are certainly safer, because he was encouraging the insurgency that's going on and keeping so many of the Iraqis in fear. The world is safer any time a tyrant and mass murderer like this, hater of the United States, is captured. That's self-evident.

BLITZER: All right, there is an anti-Dean ad that's been running, not by Republicans but by Democrats who have been putting it out. I want you to listen to a snippet from it. This is not from your campaign. But listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are those who wake up every morning determined to destroy Western civilization. Americans want a president who can face the dangers ahead, but Howard Dean has no military or foreign policy experience, and Howard Dean just cannot compete with George Bush on foreign policy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Do you agree with that ad?

LIEBERMAN: Well, that's a tough ad. I had nothing to do with it. I don't know whether it's Democrats or Republicans.

BLITZER: It's Democrats.

LIEBERMAN: If it is, they don't have anything to do with me.

Here is what I would say, though, that every Democrat ought to think about. That's exactly the kind of ad George Bush and Republicans will be running against Howard Dean if he gets the Democratic nomination. And the fact is, we Democrats are not going to gain the confidence of the American people unless we have a candidate who's strong on security, homeland and international, as I am. We are not going to gain enough confidence to then do for all Democrats what they want to do most, and that is to deny George Bush a second term and give America a fresh start with health care, education, environmental protection, human and women's rights.

BLITZER: Do you want those Democrats who put that ad out to stop running it?

LIEBERMAN: That's up to them. I mean, I don't -- I think the ad, if it's coming from Democrats, is over the top, but it is -- and of course, we can't have anything to do legally with anybody putting that kind of ad out under the law. But again, it's a warning of what Republicans will do to Howard Dean if he's nominated. And that's what I worry about.

BLITZER: All right, Joe Lieberman, thanks very much, Senator, for joining us.

LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. We have much more news coming up, including, did the man who shot President Ronald Reagan get his wish? It's decision day for John Hinckley Jr. Our Kelli Arena standing by with details on this critical ruling.

And the anniversary of the first flight takes a turbulent turn, shall we say. It's a picture you have to see.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Just about an hour or so ago a federal judge here in Washington ruled that the man who tried to kill President Ronald Reagan can make unsupervised outings with his parents. Our justice correspondent Kelli Arena is here with details of what this means in the case of John Hinckley Jr. I was surprised but a lot of people apparently weren't.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: A lot of legal experts were not surprised, Wolf. Hinckley will be allowed six day visits with his parents within a 50 mile radius of Washington D.C. to be followed by two overnight visits also within that radius.

Now Hinckley has been a patient at St. Elizabeth's Hospital for the last two decades. Hospital staff told the court that the visits are part of his ongoing therapy and that he does not pose a danger to himself or the public.

Now this isn't the first time that he will be out in public. He's gone on several outings with hospital staff. This time, though, it will be up to his parents to supervise him. Now there are some conditions. He has to follow a detailed itinerary. He's not allowed to contact the media or his ex-girlfriend who was also a patient at St. Elizabeth's.

Hinckley had asked for unsupervised visits to his parents' home in Virginia which was denied. In a statement, former First Lady Nancy Reagan said that she was disappointed in the ruling and that she still feared for the safety of the public.

The wife of former White House press secretary James Brady who was permanently disabled in the 1981 attack had written to the judge to oppose Hinckley's release and the government had argued that Hinckley had shown a pattern of deception. That he shouldn't be let out, supervised only by his elderly parents. But the judge said that he took the government's concerns into account. He feels that this incremental approach is the right way to go -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. We'll see what happens. Thanks very much, Kelli, for that.

Officials from the jurors in Lee Boyd Malvo. That story topping our justice report. The panel submitted a series of questions to the judge including one about the definition of a word which he cautioned they're not allowed to look up. The judge says she's working on answers to the other questions which were unspecified. This was the first full day of deliberations.

Kobe Bryant's father is speaking out on his son's behalf. The NBA star is due in a Colorado courtroom Friday for a hearing in a sexual assault trial. Joe Bryant says he talks to his son daily and offers advice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BRYANT, KOBE BRYANT'S FATHER: Yes, he's a good young man, I mean, no doubt about it. You know, and when I say it, just being his dad, you know, people really just take it with a grain of salt but, you know, he's a special young man. I mean, he's very worldly, very intelligent, and I think he'll get through all this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And former Illinois governor George Ryan is being indicted on federal corruption charges. They include allegations of taking payoffs and gifts in exchange for government contracts when he was governor and Illinois secretary of state. The investigation started before Ryan was elected governor in 1998. The scandal was one of the reasons he chose not to seek a second term.

It's not the take off Orville and Wilbur would have wanted. The flight that was flawed when we come back.

And our hot web question of the day is this. Do you think U.S. interrogators will gain useful information from Saddam Hussein? You can vote right now CNN.com/wolf. The results when is we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The longest of the four flights made December 17, 1903 by the Wright brothers lasted how long? The answer, 59 seconds. Making history at just 12 seconds for their first flight of the day, the Wright brothers were eventually able to stay airborne for 59 seconds and fly 852 feet.

Quite a feat in our picture of the day. The flight out today. The flight that fizzled. One hundred years exactly after the Wright brothers' first flight, an attempt to recreate the moment failed when a replica aircraft couldn't get off the ground and sputtered into the mud. Look at that.

The attempted flight at Kill Devil Hills, North Carolina, was delayed by heavy rain.

Let's take a look at our web question of the day. Do you think U.S. interrogators will get useful information from Saddam Hussein. Look at this. 52, yes, 52 percent say yes, 48 percent of you say no. Remember, this is not, repeat, not a scientific poll.

A reminder, you can always catch WOLF BLITZER REPORTS weekdays at this time, 5:00 p.m. Eastern. I'm also back every weekday noon Eastern. Tonight, by the way, I'll see you at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. I'll be filling in for Aaron Brown on "NewsNight." Until then, thanks very much for joining us. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Saddam's Loyalists; Will Hussein Talk?>

Aired December 17, 2003 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now, a legal shocker. President Ronald Reagan's shooter able to go out on unsupervised visits. Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Crackdown. The troops sweep up Saddam's loyalists, but the die-hards aren't done.

Squeezing Saddam. Can interrogators make him talk? We'll put him on the coach with a psychiatrist who worked for the CIA.

Riding high. President Bush gets a boost from the capture of Saddam. We'll hear from the former President Bush.

GEORGE HERBERT WALKER BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: With one magical moment...

BLITZER: And I'll speak with a wannabe president, Democrat Joe Lieberman.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Wednesday, December 17, 2003.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Only within the past hour, a surprising decision from a federal judge here in Washington. The man who tried to assassinate Ronald Reagan and who shot three other people, including press secretary James Brady, John Hinckley, Jr. will be allowed to make unsupervised visits. Our justice correspondent Kelli Arena will be joining us shortly. She has details.

First, though, Iraq. It doesn't stop with Saddam Hussein. Following the capture of the ex-dictator, U.S. troops have launched a major crackdown, sealing off a hotbed of guerrilla activity. Our senior international correspondent Nic Robertson is in the town of Samarra with the story and some exclusive pictures -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, Operation Ivy Blizzard is the largest coalition operation to target anti-coalition insurgents. In the last six months, 3,000 troops sealed off the town of Samarra in the early hours of the morning. They were backed up by F-16 aircraft, C-130 gunships, they were backed by Apache helicopters, Bradley fighting vehicles, Abrams tanks out on the streets.

What we know is that so far this effort in the town of Samarra has netted at least 30 Iraqis. They're all being detained at this time. The coalition commanders we've talked to have said this process, this Operation Ivy Blizzard isn't just about tackling the insurgents, who they say they want to control, they say they want to stop them communicating, stop them planning other operations, but they say it's also about putting money into the town of Samarra, helping build a council, helping get a reliable police force going, and hoping to convince the people of this Sunni town that has been falling behind the other towns in Iraq, it hasn't been developing as much, it has had a high rate of insurgency against U.S. troops, getting this town back on track.

What we have seen at this base tonight is what we have seen some of those detainees, picked up in the early hours of today, picked up on the day before, 93 of them, now being held at this base for processing. Coalition officials are saying they hope through talking to these individuals they're going to develop timely information that will allow them to go out as early as tomorrow morning and try and pick up other people, but to get out on further raids, using information from these people -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Nic, is it your sense that this is only just the beginning in the so-called Sunni triangle?

ROBERTSON: It is. And this town of Samarra is a town that presented the coalition with many problems. It has had complex attacks waged against U.S. troops here in the past. There have been intense gun battles between U.S. troops and the people of Samarra. This effort is a long, ongoing effort. There are now checkpoints around this town to screen people coming in and leaving the town so that the coalition can begin to control much better the situation in Samarra, determine whether or not -- or determine what these anti- coalition insurgents are able to do. They want to shut them down in this town, they say, once and for all.

This is the beginning of the process. If it works here, it can be applied elsewhere.

Wolf, what we also know is that they are applying lessons learned elsewhere. They say by putting the money in, as well as putting the security in, putting the money into the town is an effective way of convincing people they want to help -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Nic Robertson reporting from on the scene in Samarra. Nic, thank you very much.

For a time today, it looked like terrorists had carried out another horrific attack right in the heart of Baghdad when a fuel truck exploded right next to a passenger bus. CNN's Satinder Bindra is in the Iraqi capital with the latest on that incident.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SATINDER BINDRA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The U.S. military now says an explosion that rocked Baghdad earlier this morning was not a bomb, but it was an accident. The U.S. military says a fuel truck actually crashed into another vehicle, and then blew up. But earlier today, Iraqi police told CNN that a mobile bomb in the form of a truck carrying explosives was headed towards an Iraqi police station. However, before it got to the police station, Iraqi police said these explosives on the truck detonated prematurely. The truck detonated right in the middle of a busy intersection. Ten people were killed and 16 people injured.

Those who were injured were taken to the hospital, and several people in hospital have serious burn injuries.

(on camera): Also, just to the west of Baghdad, U.S. forces have discovered a huge store of weapons. They found just to the west of Baghdad some missile launchers, some rocket-propelled grenades. And they have also found some land mines.

Satinder Bindra, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Thanks very much, Satinder.

They were sworn to secrecy, at least for a while. But now the troops who captured Saddam Hussein are sharing their own pictures taken right after their big victory. CNN's Alphonso Van Marsh has the story of the Raider Brigade from Tikrit.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALPHONSO VAN MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Days after the raid that led to the capture of the former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, there's still a lot of buzz here at the 4th Infantry Division Raider base. Over the weekend, we showed you these exclusive pictures of 4th Infantry Division troops coming back from that raid. We saw military leadership kind of giving a pep talk to the forces that were involved. We also saw soldiers taking out cameras and taking pictures to kind of remember this historic event.

Now, later on, we actually got access to some new images. Again, a first with CNN. Images taken by the troops themselves. With these troops, we actually see the soldiers looking a little bit dazed and confused. That's because the leading commander, Colonel James Hickey, just told his subordinates that their raid was a success and, indeed, they did capture Saddam Hussein.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was living like a pig, literally hiding in a hole, OK? Again, nobody mentions anything. Got it?

VAN MARSH (on camera): That warning coming from Colonel Hickey reminding his subordinates about operational security. That's a military term basically limiting soldiers from telling their friends and family about this historic event until the military top brass made a formal announcement. Back to you, Wolf.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: Alfonso Van Marsh, doing a very, very courageous job reporting for us on the scene in Iraq.

With the capture of Saddam Hussein, a once burning question is being asked anew, where are the weapons of mass destruction? The search so far has stalled. But can Saddam Hussein provide some new leads? Joining us here in Washington, our national security correspondent, David Ensor -- David.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, as you know, because you talked to some of them, too, knowledgeable officials in this matter privately concede that this search has not gone well. They have not found weapons of mass destruction. David Kay, who is the CIA man in charge of it, is home for the holidays. His team in Iraq has been cut back and personnel shifted to the efforts against insurgents, for fairly obvious reasons. Partly for personal reasons, it is not entirely clear that David Kay will be returning to Iraq. There are discussions this week over at the CIA over what the next step should be in the hunt for weapons in Iraq.

As for Saddam, so far all they're getting from him is denials, denials that there were any -- that there are any weapons of mass destruction remaining. One question is whether or not his capture might convince Iraqi scientists to talk, and that is a possibility. There are officials in the administration who are hoping that people will feel less fearful now that Saddam is in coalition hands.

President Bush and his advisers are counseling patience. Mr. Bush said in an interview yesterday there are no weapons found. Very pointedly, he said yet. He kept using that word "yet." Secretary Rumsfeld says there may be more than one hiding hole in the ground in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: And in your mind's eye, picture the hole he was in. That hole was, what, six and a half feet by eight feet or 10 feet, in the dirt, and think of the quantity of biological weapons that could fit in that hole alone, could kill tens of thousands of human beings.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ENSOR: But Kay has only found evidence of weapons programs thus far, blueprints, components, dual use labs, and a missile program that cheated on U.N. rules. But he has found still no actual weapons. And his report is due in June. So there is a little time to go yet. Whether it will be him delivering it or someone else is not clear at this point.

BLITZER: I'm sure David Kay, you and I know him, must be very, very frustrated, like so many other U.S. officials. The search, though, will continue. David, thanks very much.

Here is your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our Web question of the day is this: Do you think U.S. interrogators will gain useful information from Saddam Hussein? You can vote right now. Go to cnn.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast.

While you're there, I'd love to hear directly from you. Send me your comments. I will try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also where you can read my daily online column, cnn.com/wolf.

And this important programming note. Please join us tonight for a one-hour special live broadcast from Iraq. CNN's Bill Hemmer, Jane Arraf and Nic Robertson will all join Paula Zahn for a look at where the country is going after Saddam Hussein and what the future holds for the former Iraqi dictator. That's tonight, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, PAULA ZAHN NOW.

Breaking his self-imposed silence, the first President Bush speaks out on Saddam Hussein.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Great pride for a father, but far more important a wonderful blessing for our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And it came just in time. Hear why the current president needed to make up with his dad.

Plus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know our son and we know what he's about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: In defense of Kobe Bryant, a father's firm opinion.

And muddy tribute. Why this reenactment of the first flight is anything but picture perfect. All that, much more.

First, though, the news quiz. The longest of the four lights made December 17, 1903, by the Wright brothers lasted how long? Twelve seconds, 59 seconds, two minutes 14 seconds, three minutes 32 seconds. The answer later in the show.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: For all the global implications of capturing Saddam Hussein, it is also a very personal triumph for one father and son who share the name George Bush. Our national correspondent Bob Franken is here to pick up the human part of this story -- Bob.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's not too often, Wolf, that something that has such huge global implications could be such a family affair.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) FRANKEN (voice-over): This will surprise absolutely no one, but now that President Bush the elder knows that President Bush the younger's military forces captured Saddam Hussein...

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: You know, this one Christmas time when Barbara and I are overjoyed.

FRANKEN: After all, this was the man who had targeted the former president for assassination as he was traveling overseas in 1993. Even though Bush I had stopped the first Gulf War without deposing Saddam.

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Great pride for a father, but far more importantly a wonderful blessing for our country. So it was one magical moment, made up for the fact that he invited me to Thanksgiving and didn't even show up for Thanksgiving dinner, because he was in Baghdad.

FRANKEN: The critics of the latest Iraq war have often charged that it was to some degree a personal indulgence of a son getting revenge for an attack against his father.

While the president has never agreed with that...

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Good riddance. The world is better off without you, Mr. Saddam Hussein.

FRANKEN: As for that confused Bush Thanksgiving...

GEORGE H.W. BUSH: Ate a lot. A luncheon prepared for 12. Five of us did it in. I took a nap. Had turkey sandwiches, went to bed, and at 5:00 the next morning, a knock on the door. Dad, let's go fishing. He was back from Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Don't you miss that syntax, Wolf? The syntax? That was Thanksgiving, but of course, now also one of the gifts that the elder Bush is getting for Christmas.

BLITZER: Very interesting indeed. A father/son story from the two presidents. Thanks very much, Bob Franken, for that report.

Trying for the truth. What will it take to get Saddam Hussein to speak? We'll look at the ingenuity of interrogation. Also, this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MADONNA, ENTERTAINER: As it stands right now, he's got my support.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Madonna's choice for president. Plus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Howard Dean doesn't think we're safer with this guy in prison. I'm afraid Howard Dean has climbed into his own spider hole of denial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: One-on-one with the candidate Joe Lieberman. Has Saddam Hussein helped his run for the White House? All that, much more coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: With Saddam Hussein in custody, the United States now potentially has access to information that could aid in the war on terror, the search for weapons of mass destruction and help increase coalition security. The key, though, is getting Saddam Hussein to talk. CNN's Jennifer Coggiola is joining us with more on what interrogating methods that might entail.

JENNIFER COGGIOLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Donald Rumsfeld announced this week that the CIA, whose questioning of al Qaeda operatives have produced a great deal of useful information, will also take the lead in the questioning of the former Iraqi leader.

But with a man like Saddam, they could have their work cut out for them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COGGIOLA (voice-over): The interrogation process, crucial for gaining information, challenging on a man like Saddam Hussein.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: He may be a schoolyard bully who ends up being a total coward. That's going to be up to the interrogation team to try to shape his mind and get him to the point where cooperate.

COGGIOLA: One of the widely used methods called direct approach, simply asking the prisoner, did you do it, has proven to be surprisingly effective. Why, because so many of these captives are terrified. In Saddam's case, the direct approach may not be enough.

ROBINSON: This is an individual who spent 30 years as the intimidator, as a god figure. So his ego, his pride could be sources which will make it difficult to interrogate him.

COGGIOLA: But psychological methods including mind games could work to wear down his will and get him to cooperate. For example, convincing him he has something to gain by cooperating

ROBINSON: It might be fear of what his outcome may be, especially if he is a war criminal facing a death penalty or it might hate or might be his pride and his ego.

COGGIOLA: Other techniques could be the stress and duress method, used according to U.S. sources against al Qaeda mastermind Abu Zubaydah (ph). For example, standing or kneeling for hours or making them wear black hoods or spray painted goggles to confuse the captive. Then there's sleep deprivation.

REP. PORTER GOSS (R), FLORIDA: Ask any mother or father of a new child in this country about sleep deprivation, and they can tell you something about sleep deprivation. It does puts you off your mark a little bit. And yet, it is not torture. It's just you're not operating at your best.

COGGIOLA: One of the most effective methods, threatening to send a captive to a country where they do not follow the rules of the Geneva Convention.

ROBINSON: He can cooperate with you or he can cooperate with the Saudis or he may cooperate with the Egyptians or some other third world country where they are not constrained by the land of law warfare.

COGGIOLA: But is anything really fool proof?

ROBINSON: There is no surefire silver bullet. They simply go through those and try to apply and tailor an approach specificly for the targeted source. In this case, Saddam.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COGGIOLA: Reports at this point are that Saddam's demeanor has been resigned since his capture Saturday night, and he is being treated humanely. Although he has been accorded the protection of a POW, he is not being legally described as one at this point -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jennifer Coggiola with that. Jennifer, thank you very much.

For more on the interrogation of Saddam Hussein, I'm joined by two guests -- Dr. Jerrold Post, he's a former CIA profiler who pioneered the field of political psychology. He now directs that program at George Washington University here in the nation's capital. Also joining us, retired U.S. Air Force Colonel John Rothrock. He's a former military interrogator for the CIA and he was chief of combat interrogation during the Vietnam War. Gentleman, thanks very much for joining us.

To both of you, let's pretend the U.S. Government says -- the CIA says to you, colonel, we need your help. You are sent over to interrogate Saddam Hussein. Tell us what you would do when you first confront him.

COL. JOHN ROTHROCK, U.S. AIR FORCE (RET.): First off, I would have wanted to be prepared with a psychological profile, such as Dr. Post would have prepared. And then I would also want that profile to be updated and brought into the real world, so to speak, by -- in order to let me know what the mind is that I'm working with right now.

BLITZER: So even before you ask the first question, you want to thoroughly be brief on exactly his psychology. Well, Dr. Post, you used to do that when you worked at the CIA. You used to prepare the psychological profiles. You have done a lot of work studying Saddam Hussein. If they called you back, what would you do?

DR. JERROLD POST, FORMER CIA TERRORISM PROFILER: I would say one has to tailor the interrogation to the particular and unique psychology of this man. This is a man who has been intensely proud of being a defiant hero for the radical Arab world. And he is already, despite the reports of his being resigned, apparently being rather sarcastic and reconstituting his usual defiant self after that initial broken man we saw. I would play to his ego. I think, it is crucial not to be coming on hardball with him, but, rather, to be playing to his swollen, inflated ego.

BLITZER: You know what the general psychology would be. Give us a little sense of how an interrogation, colonel, would go.

ROTHROCK: I believe that what I would do, I would start off with what we call good cop, bad cop where the initial confrontation you would have with a U.S. interrogator would be pretty negative. And then..

BLITZER: The tough cop?

ROTHROCK: Yes. The tough guy. Then bring in the good cop. And then he good cop would talk to him in more conciliatory tone, just trying to get some confidence developed with him and, also, trying to feel like what constitutes hope within his mind as it is constituted.

BLITZER: Dr. Post, would that work, the good cop, bad cop routine?

Does it have potential?

POST: This is a very shrewd guy. We did see a glimpse momentarily a broken man. One of the questions, what can we really offer him, in fact?

As I've thought about the choice between life without parole and a super max prison versus the death sentence, I'm not sure life without parole wouldn't be a more threatening end him, a humiliated end in shackles and irons. So, it is not clear what we can offer him.

BLITZER: What about the use of some force, not torture, but the sleep deprivation, some of the other elements we've heard that occasionally are used?

ROTHROCK: I think that you have to be careful about that for several reasons. No. 1, contrary to how he appeared when he was apprehended...

BLITZER: He looked like a punk.

ROTHROCK: ... this guy is a pretty tough customer, as is proven over his 40, 50 years of career of violence and mayhem. No. 2, this process by which we handle and exploit him as an intelligence source and also prepare a criminal case against him is going to be subjected to unprecedented international scrutiny. I think we have to be very, very careful that we don't come off as having been brought by him down to his level rather than being able to maintain a certain set of standards that make us different from him.

BLITZER: What if they were to say to him, theoretically, hypothetically, Dr. Post, you know what The Kuwaitis would really love to talk to you. We're going to send you to the Kuwaitis. Even worst, the Israelis would like to talk to you.

How would he respond to that head game if the U.S. would threaten him in some sort of way?

POST: I don't see this man easily yielding. His whole life has been living up to these dreams of glory, living up to be a successor to Nasser. And this tough guy image that the colonel spoke of, I believe, is something he's going to hold to. In fact, I believe if he comes to a trial he will probably follow the path of a Milosevic, speaking defiantly to capture his still-present followers.

BLITZER: So basicly, what you're saying colonel is there is no real silver bullet that's going to crack this guy right away. It will take a long amount of time?

ROTHROCK: I think it is going to take a long amount of time. But I also think you could bring in a third interrogator who would be able talk to him in his own language. And with total fluency. I think that's what we really have to do. And that guy would develop a rapport with him that would be different and outside of the interrogation process. And you might gain his trust.

BLITZER: It sounds like an Iraqi would be the best person -- a really smart Iraqi who knows Saddam...

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: ... whom the U.S. Government could totally trust.

POST: Let me speak to that point. I think this is absolutely crucial. We've just finished a project, debriefing incarcerated senior terrorists in Israeli and Palestinian prisons. Playing to their sense of pride in what they accomplished. Playing, for example, to how Saddam was able to outwit the U.N. inspection team to leave us empty handed during our searches. I think there is a slight possibility that this could be something we could lead him into an even boastful position.

BLITZER: All right, fascinating subject. We can continue, unfortunately we're out of time for this segment.

Dr. Post, as usually, thank you very much.

Colonel, appreciate it very much.

It's doctor's orders. Why President Bush now has a medical visit on his agenda. We'll give you the details that's coming up.

Also, Lieberman unleashed. He's taking jabs at his opponents and blasting the president. Is he the Democrat's best hope to take on George Bush? I will speak with the senator, that's coming up.

Will John Hinckley Jr. be allowed to visit his parents unsupervised?

The surprising decision only within the past hour. Our Kelli Arena, she's standing by with details.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. Did the capture of Saddam Hussein hurt the Democrat's chance of winning the White House in 2004? I'll ask presidential hopeful Joe Lieberman, that's coming up live.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

(NEWSBREAK)

BLITZER: Turning to Iraq. The United States Military says a soldier was killed and another wounded when their patrol came under small arms fire in Baghdad. Elsewhere, U.S. troops are taking the fight to the enemy in a wide ranging crackdown on insurgents.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): In the heart of hostile territory between Tikrit and Baghdad, U.S. troops from the army's 4th Infantry Division seal of the city of Samarra, a hornet's nest for insurgents. In the early morning, they go house to house and detain 30 suspects. This brings the number captured to about 100 in two days just from Samarra.

COL. FREDERICK RUDESHEIM, U.S. ARMY: The city of Samarra has been a point of friction over time. It's been, at times, very quiet, at times, somewhat unstable. It has needed this focus and in the eyes of the division leadership.

BLITZER: This is the same division that captured Saddam Hussein on Saturday. Today, newly released home video shows the commander of that operation speaking bluntly to his troops immediately after Saddam's capture.

COL. JAMES HICKEY, U.S. ARMY: He was living like a pig, literally hiding in a hole. OK. Again, nobody mentions anything. Got it?

BLITZER: In the northern city of Mosul U.S. soldiers kill three attackers attempting a drive-by shooting. Elsewhere, soldiers confiscate substantial weapon caches in Ramadi and other towns.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: The capture of Saddam Hussein has given President Bush a boost, at least in our poll. A new CNN /"USA Today/Gallup Poll shows a jump in the presidents overall job approval ratings. This week after news broke of Saddam's capture, 63 percent expressed approval. Last week, 54 percent of those polled said they approved of the president's performance.

John Hinckley hears important news in court. It is a big victory for the man who shot Ronald Reagan.

We'll tell what you it is and what it means.

Also ahead...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BRYANT, KOBE BRYANT'S FATHER: He's a special young man. He's worldly, very intelligent, and I think he'll get through all this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Defending Kobe Bryant, this time, it's not his lawyers. Hear more of what his father says about his son.

Home from the Hague. Wesley Clark talks about his trips to the Netherlands and his time at the trial of Slobodan Milosevic.

All of that coming up.

But first though, a quick at other news making headlines "Around the World."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Positive move by Iran. From Tehran word of more progress in the effort to get Iran to open its nuclear program to international inspections. The Iran's nuclear chief says his country will sign an additional protocol to the nuclear nonproliferation treaty. That signing expected tomorrow. The deal calls for a robust inspection program, including snap inspections.

SARS returns. Taiwan is reporting a new case of SARS, months after the deadly outbreak was declared over. A medical researcher is in stable condition after coming down with the flu-like illness. SARS or Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome killed more than 800 people around the world this year.

Guilty of murder. A British jury today convicted former school caretaker of killing two school girls and the judge sentenced Ian Huntly (pH) to two life terms in prison. The girls disappeared last year after leaving a family barbecue.

Religious symbols banned. A controversy dividing France takes a new turn. President Jacques Chirac says he'll sponsor legislation that will ban religious symbols including Muslim head scarves, Jewish skull caps and large Christian crosses in public schools and hospitals. Mr. Chirac says the wearing of such symbols threatens the country's separation of church and state.

Father Christmas. As December 25th draws closer, a Finnish town is attracting tourists from all over. The town in (UNINTELLIGIBLE) claims to be the home of the real Santa Claus.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jingle Bells. Jingle Bells. Jingle all the way.

BLITZER: That's our look "Around the World."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Fallen dictators and homeland security, both are key issues today for the Democratic presidential candidates on the campaign trail. For President Bush, it has been a day to pay tribute to a key moment in American history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Wesley Clark, in Concord, New Hampshire speaks to reporters about his just completed testimony in The Hague against accused war criminal Slobodan Milosevic. His message, I, too, can stare down a dictator. But he also weighed in on Saddam's fate.

WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: In order for healing to begin, there first has to be justice. You can't take that justice away from the Iraqi people and have that healing process work.

BLITZER: We're not sure how it will play in the polls, but Clark gets one a high profile endorsement, from Madonna.

MADONNA, ENTERTAINER: I think he has a good handle on foreign policy. I think he's good with people. And I think he has a heart. And a consciousness. He's interested in spirituality. I mean, those things mean a lot to me.

BLITZER: John Kerry taking a break between swipes at Howard Dean tours the harbor at Portsmouth, New Hampshire and speaks of the urgent need for better port security.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It is a point of opportunity in the war with terror for those who want to do us harm.

BLITZER: Howard Dean has no public events today, but CNN's John Mercurio reports Dean is quietly reaping crucial endorsements from Latino voters and officials. Mercurio says Dean has the backing of six of the 20 members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus.

Dennis Kucinich holds a news conference at Ohio's Democratic Party headquarters before officially filing to run in his home state's primary.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So we didn't go into Iraq with the purpose of knocking out Saddam Hussein. We went there to get weapons of mass destruction. Once we got in and there were no weapons of mass destruction, then they switch and said, well, we're going to get Saddam Hussein.

BLITZER: Senator John Edwards, cultivating support in two important states, he visits a church daycare center in Charleston, South Carolina, then heads north to Pennsylvania for fund-raisers.

As for President Bush, he has one eye on Southern voters, the other in the clouds, as he celebrates the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers' first flight.

GEORGE W. BUSH: By our skill and daring, America has excelled in every area of aviation and space travel.

BLITZER: And that's our look at the 2004 presidential candidates on the trail.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: There are some formidable numbers out there for Democratic presidential candidates. We're about to talk to one of them, Senator Joe Lieberman. A new CNN-"USA Today" Gallup Poll shows if Lieberman were to win his party's nomination, 38 percent of those asked would likely vote for him, while 59 percent say they'd lean toward President Bush. Senator Lieberman is joining us now from New Haven, Connecticut. Senator, those seem like pretty tough numbers, steep numbers if you got the Democratic presidential nomination, and that's a huge if, as you well know right now.

LIEBERMAN: Well, I don't think it's such a huge if, Wolf. Look, when I ran for the United States Senate here in Connecticut at this time in the campaign against the three-term Republican incumbent, I was 29 points behind. So there is almost a year until election day. A lot can happen. There is a natural lift that the president got as a result of the capture of Saddam Hussein, and I was the first one to say on Sunday morning, this is a day not to be a Republican or a Democrat, to be an American and all together celebrate this victory, capture of Saddam, and to honor the military of the United States who brought it about.

So there's a long time to go. And the president is going to have to answer a lot of questions in the reelection campaign. Why are we so disliked and distrusted in the world? Why are so many people at home out of work, 43 million without health insurance? You get the point, Wolf.

BLITZER: I get the point, Senator Lieberman.

Let's go to some other numbers out in this new CNN-"USA Today" Gallup poll today. It shows among registered Democrats, Howard Dean gets 27 percent of the vote. You and Wesley Clark are down to 12 percent. Gephardt and Kerry at 7 percent. Why is Howard Dean resonating so powerfully with so many of your fellow Democrats?

LIEBERMAN: Look, this is an undecided campaign for the Democratic nomination. And the good news for American democracy is that it's not pollsters or polls or pundits that pick presidents. It's the people. And the people haven't started a vote yet. And it seems to me that in the last week, there's been a clarification of differences. And none are clearer than between Howard Dean and me.

This man would take us back to where the Democratic Party was before Bill Clinton, weak on security, big tax, big spend, and against trade, for walls of protectionism. I mean, after all, he said yesterday that America is no safer since Saddam has been captured. Now, if he really feels that...

BLITZER: Well, let me press you on that point, Senator Lieberman. Explain to our viewers why he's wrong. Why is he wrong? Why is America safer right now? Saddam Hussein was running around for the past few months, he was in a hole, literally. What could he do to the U.S.? Why is Howard Dean wrong when he says America is no safer? There are other, bigger problems out there for the U.S., including Osama bin Laden, North Korea, and other issues? That's what the thrust of his speech was on Monday.

LIEBERMAN: When you are a great nation, when you presume to want to be president of the greatest nation in the world, you can't deal with one problem at one time. Five years ago, in 1998, John McCain and I introduced the Iraq Liberation Act, because we reached a judgment. Saddam Hussein was a ticking time bomb that would go off and kill a lot of Americans until we stopped him, and that law called for a change of regime in Baghdad. The man was a brutal dictator. He supported terrorism. He hated the United States of America.

Of course, we're safer with him gone. Our soldiers are certainly safer, because he was encouraging the insurgency that's going on and keeping so many of the Iraqis in fear. The world is safer any time a tyrant and mass murderer like this, hater of the United States, is captured. That's self-evident.

BLITZER: All right, there is an anti-Dean ad that's been running, not by Republicans but by Democrats who have been putting it out. I want you to listen to a snippet from it. This is not from your campaign. But listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are those who wake up every morning determined to destroy Western civilization. Americans want a president who can face the dangers ahead, but Howard Dean has no military or foreign policy experience, and Howard Dean just cannot compete with George Bush on foreign policy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right. Do you agree with that ad?

LIEBERMAN: Well, that's a tough ad. I had nothing to do with it. I don't know whether it's Democrats or Republicans.

BLITZER: It's Democrats.

LIEBERMAN: If it is, they don't have anything to do with me.

Here is what I would say, though, that every Democrat ought to think about. That's exactly the kind of ad George Bush and Republicans will be running against Howard Dean if he gets the Democratic nomination. And the fact is, we Democrats are not going to gain the confidence of the American people unless we have a candidate who's strong on security, homeland and international, as I am. We are not going to gain enough confidence to then do for all Democrats what they want to do most, and that is to deny George Bush a second term and give America a fresh start with health care, education, environmental protection, human and women's rights.

BLITZER: Do you want those Democrats who put that ad out to stop running it?

LIEBERMAN: That's up to them. I mean, I don't -- I think the ad, if it's coming from Democrats, is over the top, but it is -- and of course, we can't have anything to do legally with anybody putting that kind of ad out under the law. But again, it's a warning of what Republicans will do to Howard Dean if he's nominated. And that's what I worry about.

BLITZER: All right, Joe Lieberman, thanks very much, Senator, for joining us.

LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. We have much more news coming up, including, did the man who shot President Ronald Reagan get his wish? It's decision day for John Hinckley Jr. Our Kelli Arena standing by with details on this critical ruling.

And the anniversary of the first flight takes a turbulent turn, shall we say. It's a picture you have to see.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Just about an hour or so ago a federal judge here in Washington ruled that the man who tried to kill President Ronald Reagan can make unsupervised outings with his parents. Our justice correspondent Kelli Arena is here with details of what this means in the case of John Hinckley Jr. I was surprised but a lot of people apparently weren't.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: A lot of legal experts were not surprised, Wolf. Hinckley will be allowed six day visits with his parents within a 50 mile radius of Washington D.C. to be followed by two overnight visits also within that radius.

Now Hinckley has been a patient at St. Elizabeth's Hospital for the last two decades. Hospital staff told the court that the visits are part of his ongoing therapy and that he does not pose a danger to himself or the public.

Now this isn't the first time that he will be out in public. He's gone on several outings with hospital staff. This time, though, it will be up to his parents to supervise him. Now there are some conditions. He has to follow a detailed itinerary. He's not allowed to contact the media or his ex-girlfriend who was also a patient at St. Elizabeth's.

Hinckley had asked for unsupervised visits to his parents' home in Virginia which was denied. In a statement, former First Lady Nancy Reagan said that she was disappointed in the ruling and that she still feared for the safety of the public.

The wife of former White House press secretary James Brady who was permanently disabled in the 1981 attack had written to the judge to oppose Hinckley's release and the government had argued that Hinckley had shown a pattern of deception. That he shouldn't be let out, supervised only by his elderly parents. But the judge said that he took the government's concerns into account. He feels that this incremental approach is the right way to go -- Wolf.

BLITZER: All right. We'll see what happens. Thanks very much, Kelli, for that.

Officials from the jurors in Lee Boyd Malvo. That story topping our justice report. The panel submitted a series of questions to the judge including one about the definition of a word which he cautioned they're not allowed to look up. The judge says she's working on answers to the other questions which were unspecified. This was the first full day of deliberations.

Kobe Bryant's father is speaking out on his son's behalf. The NBA star is due in a Colorado courtroom Friday for a hearing in a sexual assault trial. Joe Bryant says he talks to his son daily and offers advice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BRYANT, KOBE BRYANT'S FATHER: Yes, he's a good young man, I mean, no doubt about it. You know, and when I say it, just being his dad, you know, people really just take it with a grain of salt but, you know, he's a special young man. I mean, he's very worldly, very intelligent, and I think he'll get through all this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And former Illinois governor George Ryan is being indicted on federal corruption charges. They include allegations of taking payoffs and gifts in exchange for government contracts when he was governor and Illinois secretary of state. The investigation started before Ryan was elected governor in 1998. The scandal was one of the reasons he chose not to seek a second term.

It's not the take off Orville and Wilbur would have wanted. The flight that was flawed when we come back.

And our hot web question of the day is this. Do you think U.S. interrogators will gain useful information from Saddam Hussein? You can vote right now CNN.com/wolf. The results when is we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The longest of the four flights made December 17, 1903 by the Wright brothers lasted how long? The answer, 59 seconds. Making history at just 12 seconds for their first flight of the day, the Wright brothers were eventually able to stay airborne for 59 seconds and fly 852 feet.

Quite a feat in our picture of the day. The flight out today. The flight that fizzled. One hundred years exactly after the Wright brothers' first flight, an attempt to recreate the moment failed when a replica aircraft couldn't get off the ground and sputtered into the mud. Look at that.

The attempted flight at Kill Devil Hills, North Carolina, was delayed by heavy rain.

Let's take a look at our web question of the day. Do you think U.S. interrogators will get useful information from Saddam Hussein. Look at this. 52, yes, 52 percent say yes, 48 percent of you say no. Remember, this is not, repeat, not a scientific poll.

A reminder, you can always catch WOLF BLITZER REPORTS weekdays at this time, 5:00 p.m. Eastern. I'm also back every weekday noon Eastern. Tonight, by the way, I'll see you at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. I'll be filling in for Aaron Brown on "NewsNight." Until then, thanks very much for joining us. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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Saddam's Loyalists; Will Hussein Talk?>