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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Musharraf: Forces May Have Key al Qaeda Figure Surrounded

Aired March 18, 2004 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Assault on al Qaeda. Pakistan's leader believes his forces have a key figure surrounded.

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN: He feels that there may be a high-value target.

BLITZER: Will the U.S. finally get a chance on a mastermind of 9/11. We'll get an inside look at bin Laden's righthand man and at the man in the middle, Pakistan's beleaguered president.

ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "The Battle Against al Qaeda."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: You're looking at new pictures coming in from Pakistan just a short while ago. Right now an operation is underway targeting al Qaeda. It's a huge operation. Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting today from New York. There's been a major development in the hunt for Osama bin Laden. Pakistani government sources say bin Laden's number 2 leader and closest adviser Ayman al-Zawahiri may be surrounded by Pakistani troops right now.

U.S. officials believe al-Zawahiri played an important role, perhaps a critical role in the 9/11 attacks. Right now Pakistani troops are engaged in what are being described as very tough battles, very tough fighting with suspected al Qaeda forces believed to be protecting al-Zawahiri in a rugged area near the Afghan border.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): In an exclusive interview with CNN's Aaron Brown, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said Pakistani troops may have a high-value al Qaeda target surrounded near the border with Afghanistan.

MUSHARRAF: The resistance being offered by the people there, we feel that they may be a high-value target. I can't say who. But they are giving fierce battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we're pounding them with artillery.

BLITZER: U.S. officials say they've been told by the Pakistani government that the high value target may be Osama bin Laden's No. 2 man, Ayman al-Zawahiri. But they do not think it's bin Laden or the Taliban leader Mulla Mohammed Omar (ph). These officials say in the past bin Laden and al-Zawahiri have traveled together but not always. U.S. and Pakistani officials have long said they believe bin Laden has been holed up in the rugged mountainous area separating the two countries. This development comes on the heels of two major military offenses. One by America troops in Afghanistan and the other across the border in Pakistan by Pakistani forces, both aimed at al Qaeda and Taliban fighters.

The Pakistanis backed by artillery and helicopter gun ships say they've encountered fierce resistance. One U.S. official says the suspected al Qaeda forces are, quote, "fighting like hell to defend their position," an indication, this official says, that these forces are protecting someone very important. U.S. officials also say the U.S. is giving recognizance information to the Pakistanis but stress that this is a Pakistani operation.

Senior Pakistani military officials say it appears the al Qaeda forces have zeroed in on that area with heavy weapons, including mortars. A Pakistani military official says at least 24 suspected terrorists have been killed, and 18 captured in recent days. He said that 15 Pakistani troops have been killed in that fighting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: CNN national security analyst Ken Robinson was there when the Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf broke the news to our Aaron Brown. Ken is joining us now by phone from the Pakistani capital, Islamabad. Set the scene for us. What do we know about the nature of this battle?

KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Two days ago the Pakistan military acting on intelligence moved into an area in Southern (UNINTELLIGIBLE) which is an area right along the Afghan border. It's a lawless area which has been run by tribes. It's a federally administered tribal area where the government of Pakistan has not been able to operate before. But over three days ago, the President Musharraf met with tribal leaders there, over 100 of them, and told them he was going to start offensive operation in that area and actually secured blessings from them to do so. And from that, they encountered this close contact in a village. That close contact which they thought initially was going to be a simple cordon and search operation has turned into a major pitched battle against a very highly armed, very determined force who is fortified and has approximately six to seven compounds which are spread around a valley and is fighting to the death in that area.

BLITZER: Is it your sense that they had insight information, human assets, if you will, intelligence information suggesting the No. 2 al Qaeda leader was there or is it simply deduction based on the fierce fighting, the resistance that the Pakistani forces have encountered?

ROBINSON: Well, we -- if I answered that question in a vacuum, I would -- just being in Pakistan, I would say it may be because the bodies and the people they've captured and searched so far. However, having spent the last seven days in Afghanistan, on the other side of the border, speaking with U.S. and Afghan national army forces, one of the things that we saw was an enormous amount of confidence in something, that these -- that these personnel, both Afghani and U.S. felt confident that in the near future, offensive operations were going to gain them some type of a prize. They all had it in an understated way, but they were very confident.

BLITZER: What the Pakistanis have, certainly the U.S. has, are considerable air assets, air power that can be used in this kind of operation, something the al Qaeda forces certainly do not have. Why not simply go in with massive air strikes and get the job done? Is that feasible?

ROBINSON: It is -- operationally, it is very feasible. One of the things that impressed us today in the meetings with President Musharraf and several of his generals were they expressed their concerns over the civilians and the collateral damage in the area. Remember, this is the first time they have operated in this area. And they are very sensitive about the law of land warfare and civilian casualties and the fact that they've got to govern thereafter this combat is over with. Their intention is to do two things. One, to deny these Arab foreign fighters a refuge there, but also to convert the people in the tribal areas to come under the control of the central government and join the community of Pakistan in a greater Pakistan once this foreign fighter threat is reduced.

BLITZER: Our security analyst, Ken Robinson, is in Islamabad. We'll get back to you, Ken. Thanks very much for that information.

He's al Qaeda's No. 2 leader and Osama bin Laden's right-hand man. For a closer look now at Ayman al-Zawahiri. Let's turn to CNN's Jonathan Mann (ph).

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ayman al-Zawahiri first met Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan during the late 80s.

Al-Zawahiri and bin Laden went public with their terrorist alliance in May of that year. The two men issued a fatwa, a declaration declaring war on them and told Muslims that it was their duty to kill Americans anywhere they found them. A few weeks later, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were attacked by suicide bombers driving trucks. Al-Zawahiri and Osama bin Laden would both be indicted, charged with masterminding those attacks. U.S. government sources believe that al-Zawahiri was a key player in the attacks on Washington and New York. Since September 11, al-Zawahiri raised his public profile, appearing at bin Laden's side in several videos.

AYMAN AL-ZAWAHIRI, OSAMA BIN LADEN RIGHT-HAND MAN (translator): All American people, you must ask yourselves, why all this hate against America.

MANN: He issued this audio tape in October 2002, threatening new attacks against the west.

AL-ZAWAHIRI (through translator): America and its deputies should know their crimes will not go unpunished. We advise them to make a hasty retreat from Palestine, the Iranian gulf, Afghanistan, and the rest of the Muslim states before they lose everything.

MANN: A series of audio messages followed and these pictures of al-Zawahiri and bin Laden released on the second anniversary of 9/11, actual date unknown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to speak to the whole world. Who are we? Who are we?

MANN: It has been almost two decades since Ayman al-Zawahiri said he wanted the whole world to hear his message. The world heard. Jonathan Mann, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Ayman al-Zawahiri is on the U.S. government's list of most wanted terrorists in the world. Al-Zawahiri is charged in al Qaeda's worldwide terrorism campaign to kill Americans and destroy U.S. property. He's also charged with the murders of 224 people killed in the 1998 twin truck bombings of the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. If al-Zawahiri is captured he could provide a wealth of information but getting it raises a number of serious questions. Our justice correspondent Kelli Arena is joining us now from Washington. Kelly, let's get my first question, what kind of information do officials think that he may really have?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, being the No. 2 in the al Qaeda structure he could have information about a possible al Qaeda plots that are currently in progress. He may also know the location of other operatives, anything that is found with him, computers, computer disks, documents are just the type of thing that intelligence officers would love to exploit. And almost as importantly, Wolf, he is believed to have regular communication with Osama bin Laden. So while he might not be right there in the same compound or the same exact location, it is thought that they're never very far away from each other. So he may lead investigators, U.S. troops right to Osama bin Laden.

BLITZER: Next question may be a little premature. They certainly have not captured him yet. They're not even 100 percent sure he is in this area. But presumably, if he is, and if they were to capture him alive, how important would it be to interrogate him quickly?

ARENA: Well, the first thing is getting him into U.S. custody, which is fully expected although there may be some maneuvering with Pakistan. He is expected to be whisked away like other al Qaeda operatives to an undisclosed location and the time is of the essence, Wolf. You put your finger right on it.

Those who have interrogated in the past say that right at that moment when you're first captured you're very disoriented, you become unhinged, you have a sense of abandonment. It is then when you are most vulnerable, uniquely vulnerable and may say things that you likewise might not say after a space of time has elapsed and you're somewhat of yourself. So the timing is very, very important. Especially, Wolf, if it's real time information about on going plots. In order to save lives, interrogators would want to get ahold of him as quickly adds possible to get a stop to that.

BLITZER: Kelli Arena, thanks very much. We're standing by to speak with Senator Dianne Feinstein, key member of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Also Pakistan's ambassador to the United Nations will join us this hour as well.

Pakistani military forces are surrounding the No. 2 al Qaeda leader. At least they believe he's the No. 2 al Qaeda leader. But how involved is the U.S. in this operation? We'll go live to the Pentagon. We'll also get reaction from the White House where officials are closely monitoring all of these developments. Our live coverage of this breaking news story will continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Our top story, Pakistani sources say Ayman al-Zawahiri, al Qaeda's No. 2 man may be cornered near the Afghan border. More than 200 al Qaeda fighters are battling Pakistani forces who are said to be planning a heavy air assault in the coming hours.

The Pentagon is offering some help to the Pakistani military but also keeping a distance. Our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre is joining us now with specific details. Jamie, how optimistic are they over at Pentagon?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Pentagon officials, Wolf, are trying to inject a cold dose of reality into the saturation coverage pointing out that there have been other operations in the recent past in which it was believed that high-value targets were surrounded only to discover that they had essentially melted away.

As Defense Secretary Rumsfeld has said on recent occasions about Osama bin Laden, you don't have him until you have him. And close is -- he said, just this week, close doesn't count except in horseshoes and hand grenades.

So the Pentagon is trying to downplay expectations that Zawahiri would be captured and killed in this operation, although obviously they're intensely interested in how this turns out. But it is extremely difficult to get an individual in one operation. The U.S. is using whatever it can to monitor the situation from the air, to be ready if anyone crosses border.

But Pentagon officials here are shaking their heads a little bit about all this coverage, saying that there's a good chance that it's not Zawahiri or he won't be captured -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thanks, Jamie, very much. The White House clearly also watching cautiously as the events unfold in Pakistan. It's warning the war on terror won't be won with simply a single bullet. Let's go live to our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, all eyes are on this search. But I have to basically echo what Jamie said and that is a lot of White House officials here are trying to downplay this as well.

They are saying if this is Zawahiri, they certainly don't know yet, they can't confirm that. They say often first-time reports are wrong. They also say that they have seen this type of activity before. One source telling me that they're not yet excited about this development.

But having said that, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice early today said if this is al Qaeda's No. 2, it would be very significant.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, were it true, it would, of course, be a major step forward in the war on terrorism because he's obviously an extremely important figure.

But I think we have to be careful not to assume that getting one al Qaeda leader is going to break up the organization. We've always said that, even with Osama bin Laden, who we'd all like to see brought to justice, that that will not be the end of al Qaeda. They have local leadership. They have other national leadership.

We have to dismantle the entire network, not just one person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: So while the White House is keeping a close eye on the developments, they are also downplaying expectations -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Thanks, Suzanne, for that.

President Bush's rival for the White House, Senator John Kerry, is taking a break from the campaign trail today. Kerry and his wife are spending five days at their vacation home north of Ketchum in Idaho. A Democratic official says no campaign fund raisers or public events are planned.

How Pakistani military forces are waging their war against al Qaeda and what it will mean in the war on terror if Ayman al-Zawahiri is captured? Insight from retired U.S. Air Force Major General Don Shepperd.

We're also standing by to speak to Senator Dianne Feinstein, a key member of the Intelligence Committee and Pakistan's ambassador to the United Nations. Our live coverage continues. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Updating our top story. Pakistani troops right now are locked in a fierce battle with al Qaeda forces believed to be protecting a senior al Qaeda leader. Pakistani government sources believe that man is Osama bin Laden's No. 2 leader and closest adviser, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

For more insight on all of this, CNN military analyst General Don Sheppard is joining us now by phone from Tel Aviv. What kind of air assets would be needed to try to get this job done in this so-called tribal area between Pakistan and Afghanistan?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, the Waziristanian area, Wolf, is extremely difficult terrain. It's night there right now. And what you would need, if you were trying an ideal operation, would be what the United States has which is targeting pods, night vision devices, people on the ground with marking devices that could designate the targets for airborne people with precision weapons.

The Pakistani air force, although a good air force, does not have all that equipment. It looks like they're going to wait until day to employ probably both fighters and helicopter.

Again, they just don't have the sophisticated equipment the United States has, Wolf.

BLITZER: It's now approaching 3:30 a.m. in Pakistan. So daylight what is another hour or two away from there. The kind of terrain, though, the caves, that would make even sophisticated air power rather complicated, wouldn't it?

SHEPPERD: It would indeed. Basically what air power would do in this particular case is soften up the people that are on the ground for ground assault. But in the final analysis you're very likely to have infantry assaults by dismounted infantry. In other words, the terrain doesn't lend itself to tanks and vehicles. It lends itself to the old soldier with a rifle and other -- and other weapons, Wolf.

It's just very difficult terrain. If you could pick terrain you wouldn't want to fight in, this would be right at the top of the list. It's really difficult stuff there.

BLITZER: So, General Sheppard, assuming Pakistani ground forces command a special operation forces infantry, whatever they have going in there, have to go in on the ground and do it. This is a battle that could last for days, couldn't it?

SHEPPERD: It could, indeed, especially because of the terrain, people that are fanatical fighters that are going to fight until the death are going to hold themselves up and can last a long time even when they come under air assault and artillery assault from a determined force like the Pakistanis.

The Pakistani ground forces, as you mentioned, all of those exist. They're very good forces. The first thing you have to do is block off the area where you think the people are. And, of course, the fact that you're not able to operate all night long with all of your air and ground assets means that people can escape.

So this could last several days. And also, we are all assuming that it's al-Zawahiri because of the remarks being made. But that probably came from human intelligence. We'll have to wait until the fight is over to determine if it's true.

BLITZER: General Shepperd, if this were normal military combatants and one side had a decisive edge, you would think the losing side would be willing to surrender and live. But what you're suggesting is, these forces loyal to al Qaeda may be committed to fighting to the death. Is that the kind of intelligence that you've heard about these forces?

SHEPPERD: Indeed. That's what we've heard about the forces. Almost no matter where they are, or in whatever country they are they're willing to die for what they perceive to be their cause.

Now of course, in a group of 200, which is what this group is rumored to be, or reported to be, let's put it that way, you will probably find some that will fight to the death and some that may give up.

I understand that the Pakistanis have made announcements that these folks should give up. And then the group started firing in the fierce fighting broke out after that. So it doesn't look like they're going to give up, Wolf.

BLITZER: General Don Shepperd joining us with insight as he often does. Thanks, General Shepperd, for taking some time today.

There's much more ahead on this developing story. Up next, we'll live to Islamabad, Pakistan for the latest on the search.

We'll also hear part of that exclusive interview that CNN conducted, Aaron Brown conducted with President Musharraf in Islamabad earlier today.

Also, I'll speak with our terrorism analyst, Peter Bergen. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting from New York. You're looking at a picture of Ayman al-Zawahiri. Intelligence sources indicating that al Qaeda's No. 2 man is surrounded right now. We'll go live to Pakistan.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

Spanish authorities have arrested five more people in connection with last week's deadly train bombings in Madrid. Their arrests bring the number of suspect in custody to 11. The bombings happened a week ago today and killed more than 200 people. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia says he will not recuse himself from a controversial case involving Vice President Dick Cheney and documents related to an Energy Task Force. The plaintiffs asked Scalia to step down, saying a hunting trip he took with Cheney created an appearance of impropriety.

A Fresno, California man faces arraignment today on charges he shot and killed nine of his children. Police also are looking into whether Marcus Wesson killed his children while officers waited outside his house as what began as a custody dispute.

Jury deliberations have begun in New York in the five-month trial of Tyco International's former CEO Dennis Koslowski and former CFO Mark Schwartz. Jurors must decide if the pair looted more than $600 million from the company. Both are charged be grand larceny, falsifying records, and violating state business laws.

And we'll show you some pictures we're getting in. These are live pictures from north Miami, Dade County right now. There's a large brush fire underway just off I-75 near the Florida Turnpike. You can see those fires in that area just off the road right there, off the interstate. We'll watch what's happening in North Miami and get back to it. But, right now, the first of a series of large brushfires anticipated in this coming season.

But let's return now to the fierce battle unfolding in Pakistan near the Afghan border. Pakistani sources tell CNN they believe al Qaeda's No. 2 man, Ayman al-Zawahri, is cornered there. Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf spoke to CNN's Aaron Brown, but was unwilling to name names.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: But the resistance that is being offered by the people there, we feel that there may be a high value target. I can't say who. But they are giving pitched battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we have pounded them with artillery.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: You can see the complete interview that Aaron had with the President Pervez Musharraf. That's coming up at 10:00 p.m. Eastern here on CNN.

CNN's Ash-har Quraishi is joining us now via videophone from Islamabad with an update.

What do you know how, Ash-har?

ASH-HAR QURAISHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, military officials say they are waiting for daybreak, just a few hours away, to launch further operations now.

They are in a holding pattern at this time. They have cornered off this area in which the -- some 200 -- more than 200 al Qaeda fighters are holed up. Intelligence sources telling us they are protecting Osama bin Laden's No. 2 lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahri, at this time. They are holding and there is some concern on the ground by military officials that in the dark they may have some of these al Qaeda fighters trying to escape, trying to get through there.

This is very difficult, very, very treacherous terrain in Waziristan in northwest Pakistan in the tribal belt, where this operation has been ongoing all day, basically, and part of further operations that have been continuing through the week -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Ash-har Quraishi reporting for us from Islamabad -- Ash-har, thanks very much for that.

Joining us now on the phone is a key member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California.

There have been optimistic moments in the past. What is your sense right now, Senator, what's going on?

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, my sense is, this is another, as you put it, optimistic moment. If it works out, and if he can either be captured or done away with, it is a major step forward. I don't think anyone is closer to Osama bin Laden than this man.

No one is certainly better steeped in terror than this man. No one has had more responsibility for the embassy bombings and for 9/11 than this man. And probably he's been responsible for a lot of the medical care that Osama bin Laden has received. So if anyone would know the whereabouts, would know the plans, would know the intentions on both a small scale and a large scale of al Qaeda, it would be this man. So this would be a major trophy in the battle against terror. No question about that.

BLITZER: I know over the past few years that you've been on the committee, Senator Feinstein, you've been well briefed by U.S. intelligence experts. Do they often travel together, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri, or are they traveling separately, based on what you've been told?

FEINSTEIN: Well, recently, I haven't been told. But they have been together for a long period of time. If they are together, I would think you would be 99 percent certain that they were in communication. I doubt that this No. 2 would leave No. 1 for long, if ever, to be very candid.

It just -- their operation has always been in sync. Virtually all the photographs that have come through of bin Laden have had Zawahri with him. So I would think a separation of great distance is certainly unlikely.

BLITZER: In contrast, though, the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar, still at large. I've been told often in the past by U.S. intelligence experts that he almost certainly doesn't travel with Osama bin Laden. Is that your sense as well? FEINSTEIN: Well, that's my sense. I mean, I think the Taliban is a different thing, supported by al Qaeda, but, you know, and at times can move together, but also a separate movement.

BLITZER: Key in all of this is the cooperation of the Pakistani president, Pervez Musharraf. He has really gone out on a limb in recent months and is cooperating with the U.S. in the war on terror. Is there anything that the U.S. government, based on what you know, would like him to do that he's not doing?

FEINSTEIN: Well, I think he's doing right now exactly what our government would want him to do. And that is to take vigorous military action in the areas on the borders of Pakistan where it's most likely that many of the al Qaeda are and that the al Qaeda leadership is.

So I think it's a very brave action, may well have been precipitated by two very serious attempts on Musharraf's life. But certainly General Musharraf is now out front and center and moving aggressively. I think that deserves our very strong support and our kudos, if not a lot of other things as well. This is a very significant move.

BLITZER: Senator Feinstein, in the past, when Pakistan has captured terrorists, they've often handed those terrorists over to the United States if those terrorists were engaged in killing Americans. Do you have any doubt, based on what you know right now, that either Osama bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahri would be handed over to the U.S. if captured alive?

FEINSTEIN: No, I don't, if that's what we wanted. But there may be reasons why we would not want to do that. I mean, I really can't speculate on that one.

But I would think the fact that Musharraf has gone this far out on a limb to really, in a military way, go after him most significantly would indicate that he would cooperate with the United States in whatever our government felt was the best course, should he be captured alive.

BLITZER: The only explanation I could imagine, Senator Feinstein, why the U.S. might not want, let's say, Osama bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahri is because foreign intelligent services might be able to use interrogation techniques that might not be used by the U.S. Is that what you were referring to?

FEINSTEIN: Well, yes, that's what I was referring to. And it would seem to me that the most important information is obviously where No. 1, Osama bin Laden, is. And this is the best source of that information.

So if it's going to be had, I think you would have to get it fairly rapidly or, you know, bin Laden and many of his supporters certainly watch the news and the likelihood is that he will change locations.

BLITZER: Senator Feinstein, thanks for joining us.

FEINSTEIN: OH, you're very welcome. Happy to do it. Thanks.

BLITZER: Thank you.

FEINSTEIN: Bye, Wolf.

BLITZER: Let's bring back our CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen. He's an expert on al Qaeda who has actually interviewed Osama bin Laden, joining us once again from Washington.

You heard that last little exchange I had with Senator Feinstein on perhaps a foreign intelligent service using interrogation means that the U.S. may not feel comfortable with. I'm curious, Peter, if you want to weigh in on that.

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, we know Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who is the operational mastermind of 9/11, there's some indication based on conversations I've had with Pakistanis and American officials that he may have been given some kind of interrogation that wouldn't be exactly fit with American interrogation techniques by the Pakistanis.

He very quickly gave up a piece of information about Osama bin Laden. He was arrested back in March and he said that he had seen bin Laden within the last month or two before that. So that's the sort of information that you need to find out very quickly. Certainly, there is I think plenty of evidence that we have used other foreign intelligence agencies, not just the Pakistanis, whose forensic techniques may be just very different from, let's say, the FBI and we've done that sort of knowingly because obviously you want to get your information as quickly as possible.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Al Zawahri, Peter, as you well know, as our viewers, most of them at least know by now, 52 years old. He's a medical doctor. And he's often provided some treatment, we're told, to Osama bin Laden himself. Based on what you know right now, we've heard also -- I've heard all sorts of conflicting information on how sick Osama bin Laden may be. What is the information that you have?

BERGEN: I've looked at this quickly pretty carefully.

I'll tell you what. Bin Laden has a number of health problems. He has low pressure. He has diabetes. He has sustained a wound to his foot in the mid-'80s. And he also sustained a pretty serious shoulder wound in the battle of Tora Bora in December of 2001. There have been a number of rumors out there that he's suffering from some sort of severe kidney disease. I'm afraid they're much overblown.

People I talk to say that while he may have some sort of kidney complaint, he's not suffering from some sort of major kidney disease. If he was suffering from a major kidney, he would have to have dialysis weekly. Very unlikely he's getting that in the kinds of areas he's in. But I think, as you pointed out earlier, certainly, as -- Senator Feinstein said this -- Ayman al-Zawahri is bin Laden's doctor. Obviously, bin Laden does have health problems.

And the fact is that he's been relying on Ayman al-Zawahri as his doctor since the mid-'80s. So that would imply that, even if they are not together, they are in fairly constant communication, because bin Laden does have enough health problems that he needs some kind of medical attention. Look at the last pictures we saw of him.

Here we see him before 9/11. The last pictures we saw of him were December 27, 2001. He looked like he was 20 years older than the pictures we're seeing right now. So he has obviously got some health problems. I don't think they're life-threatening. I don't think he's going to die of natural causes.

BLITZER: Peter Bergen, our CNN terrorism another, Peter, thanks very much for that.

And we'll have much more coming up on these important developments in Pakistan, including an interview I'll have coming up momentarily with Pakistan's ambassador to the United Nations.

Also coming up, another deadly day in Iraq. As the war's one- year anniversary nears, that would be tomorrow, chaos and destruction only seem to mount.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Once again, our top story, al Qaeda's No. 2 man, Ayman al-Zawahri, may be surrounded by Pakistani troops near the border with Afghanistan. That's the word from Pakistani government sources. Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf tells CNN his forces are pounding the area, but meeting fires resistance. Sources say an air assault is planned for first light. That's only about two hours or so away.

Joining us now from the United Nations, Pakistan's ambassador to the U.N., Munir Akram.

Mr. Ambassador, thanks very much for joining us.

Please update our viewers on what you know precisely what's unfolding in this area along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

MUNIR AKRAM, PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: Well, I think that, as you have been informed, we have launched this operation in south Waziristan.

It's been ongoing for the couple of days. There has been heavy fighting, especially yesterday, when our forces met very strong resistance from these elements in the area. They have counterattacked. And we are now poised to surround these elements. But I think that the next day will tell how the operation will go.

BLITZER: And is it your sense, as we've been hearing from Pakistani intelligence sources, that al Qaeda's No. 2, Ayman al- Zawahri, may be at the center of this battle? AKRAM: Well, we, I don't think, are in a position to make any identification of who is there.

But what is certain is that we have met very strong resistance, unusually strong resistance, from this group. And this indicates that there is a high-value target which is involved. So one could make a guess. But, at this moment, we do not have precise information as to who exactly is there.

BLITZER: Beyond the level of resistance, the fact that they've been fighting, in the words of one U.S. official, fighting like crazy, for the -- fighting very ferociously to try to protect whoever may be at the center of this battle, was there also some information that you received, that your government received, suggesting Ayman al-Zawahri was there?

AKRAM: I don't think that we have any concrete information. And, if we did, I am not certain that we would wish to share it.

But we know that there is a high-value target there. Whoever it is, whether it's Zawahri or somebody else high up in the chain, we have to -- we have to succeed in this operation. And that's what we are focused on at the moment. We'll see who's there once we get there.

BLITZER: When we suggest that this unit, believed to be al Qaeda, believed to include No. 2 al Qaeda there, may be surrounded by Pakistani forces, how big of an area are we talking about? How far away would you sense that the Pakistani military is from these al Qaeda forces?

AKRAM: Well, the area of south Waziristan is fairly large. It's, I would hazard to guess, around half the size of New Jersey at least. So it's -- and it's very difficult terrain.

Our forces are spread out. We have 70,000 forces on the border with Afghanistan, but these are spread out. We launched these operations in response to intelligence that we received, either human intelligence, electronic intelligence, intelligence from U.S. sources. And this operation obviously was in response to such -- such gathering of intelligence.

So -- but the whole force, it obviously cannot be deployed at one point. And it is a fairly large area. So it has had to deploy. It has had to redeploy as the fighting has proceeded. But now we feel that we are in a favorable position with regard to these foreign elements, who, as I said, have been fighting very ferociously, as you stated. And, therefore, we believe that they have a high-value target with them.

BLITZER: Let me be precise. One U.S. official told me they're fighting -- quote -- "like hell" to defend this position.

Ambassador Munir Akram, thanks very much for spending a few moments with us here at CNN.

AKRAM: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: When we come back, we'll also hear President Bush. He was asked about all of these reports that the No. 2 al Qaeda leader may be surrounded right now. We'll share what the president had to say only moments ago. We'll get to all of that.

First, though, some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): NATO is sending more peacekeepers to Kosovo in a bid to stop a wave of violence that's killed almost two dozen people. The crisis erupted yesterday, when ethnic Albanians went on the rampage after blaming Serbs for the drowning deaths of two children. It's said to be the worse violence since the provinces' war ended in 1999.

Gaza withdraws. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is stepping up efforts to gain support for an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. It comes a day after deadly military strikes on Palestinian militants, a move triggered by Sunday's suicide bombing that killed 10 Israelis.

Best of all of noise and fire. It's the way the Spanish city of Valencia welcomes spring. Huge caricatures of politicians and celebrities made of paper and plastic are set on fire, much to the delight of hundreds of thousands of party-goers on hand.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: CNN's Aaron Brown first learned about the fighting in Pakistan in an exclusive interview with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. We'll get to that interview in a moment.

But just a few moments ago, the president of the United States was walking into the White House and he was questioned by reporters about this information that the No. 2 al Qaeda leader may be surrounded. Let's listen to what the president had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't know anything new.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Clearly, he says he doesn't know yet what precisely is going on. We'll monitor what's happening at the White House. We'll monitor what's happening elsewhere specifically along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Let's listen, though, briefly to some excerpts from Aaron Brown's interview with the Pakistani president. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: Resistance that is being offered by the people there, we feel that there may be a high value target. I can't say who. But they are giving pitched battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we have pounded them with artillery.

I spoke with the corps commander just now. I knew you were going to ask me this question. So I talked with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) The net is there. They are there. They see very strong, dug-in positions. The houses actually there are almost forts. And they are mud forts. And all these forts are occupied, and they are dug in. And they are giving fierce resistance. So, he's reasonably sure there's a high- value target there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And you can see the full interview, Aaron Brown's full interview with Pakistan's President Musharraf on "NEWSNIGHT." That airs tonight, 10:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 p.m. Pacific. Aaron will be reporting live from Islamabad.

U.S. Central Command says two U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan were killed, two others were wounded during a firefight this afternoon. They were part of a patrol that came under attack. The U.S. military's Central Command said soldiers returned fire, killing at least five of their attackers.

Turning now to the situation in Iraq, a day after a devastating bombing in Baghdad and a day before the war's anniversary, there was no letup in the violence. The death toll from yesterday's blast outside Baghdad's Mount Lebanon Hotel has been revised downward to seven. Coalition officials say it was a suicide car bomb.

There was another blast today in the southern Iraqi city of Basra near another hotel. Three people were reported killed along with the suspected suicide bomber.

The latest on our top story, that's just ahead. Sources say Pakistani troops may have al Qaeda's No. 2 leader surrounded near the Afghan border. We'll update you on this developing story immediately when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: As we get ready to conclude this special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, here's what we know about the breaking news from Pakistan. Let's recap for our viewers.

Pakistan says its troops are battling well-trained, well-equipped al Qaeda forces near the Afghan border. Pakistani sources say the Pakistanis have al Qaeda's No. 2 leader, Ayman al-Zawahri, surrounded and a heavy airstrike is planned in the coming hours. Zawahri is considered to be Osama bin Laden's closest confidante.

Stay with CNN for continuing coverage tonight.

This programming note, because of the breaking news out of Pakistan, we were unable to bring you my interview with Donald Trump. We will bring that to you on a later occasion.

You can always catch us weekdays 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired March 18, 2004 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Assault on al Qaeda. Pakistan's leader believes his forces have a key figure surrounded.

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN: He feels that there may be a high-value target.

BLITZER: Will the U.S. finally get a chance on a mastermind of 9/11. We'll get an inside look at bin Laden's righthand man and at the man in the middle, Pakistan's beleaguered president.

ANNOUNCER: This is a special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS: "The Battle Against al Qaeda."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: You're looking at new pictures coming in from Pakistan just a short while ago. Right now an operation is underway targeting al Qaeda. It's a huge operation. Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting today from New York. There's been a major development in the hunt for Osama bin Laden. Pakistani government sources say bin Laden's number 2 leader and closest adviser Ayman al-Zawahiri may be surrounded by Pakistani troops right now.

U.S. officials believe al-Zawahiri played an important role, perhaps a critical role in the 9/11 attacks. Right now Pakistani troops are engaged in what are being described as very tough battles, very tough fighting with suspected al Qaeda forces believed to be protecting al-Zawahiri in a rugged area near the Afghan border.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): In an exclusive interview with CNN's Aaron Brown, Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf said Pakistani troops may have a high-value al Qaeda target surrounded near the border with Afghanistan.

MUSHARRAF: The resistance being offered by the people there, we feel that they may be a high-value target. I can't say who. But they are giving fierce battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we're pounding them with artillery.

BLITZER: U.S. officials say they've been told by the Pakistani government that the high value target may be Osama bin Laden's No. 2 man, Ayman al-Zawahiri. But they do not think it's bin Laden or the Taliban leader Mulla Mohammed Omar (ph). These officials say in the past bin Laden and al-Zawahiri have traveled together but not always. U.S. and Pakistani officials have long said they believe bin Laden has been holed up in the rugged mountainous area separating the two countries. This development comes on the heels of two major military offenses. One by America troops in Afghanistan and the other across the border in Pakistan by Pakistani forces, both aimed at al Qaeda and Taliban fighters.

The Pakistanis backed by artillery and helicopter gun ships say they've encountered fierce resistance. One U.S. official says the suspected al Qaeda forces are, quote, "fighting like hell to defend their position," an indication, this official says, that these forces are protecting someone very important. U.S. officials also say the U.S. is giving recognizance information to the Pakistanis but stress that this is a Pakistani operation.

Senior Pakistani military officials say it appears the al Qaeda forces have zeroed in on that area with heavy weapons, including mortars. A Pakistani military official says at least 24 suspected terrorists have been killed, and 18 captured in recent days. He said that 15 Pakistani troops have been killed in that fighting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: CNN national security analyst Ken Robinson was there when the Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf broke the news to our Aaron Brown. Ken is joining us now by phone from the Pakistani capital, Islamabad. Set the scene for us. What do we know about the nature of this battle?

KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Two days ago the Pakistan military acting on intelligence moved into an area in Southern (UNINTELLIGIBLE) which is an area right along the Afghan border. It's a lawless area which has been run by tribes. It's a federally administered tribal area where the government of Pakistan has not been able to operate before. But over three days ago, the President Musharraf met with tribal leaders there, over 100 of them, and told them he was going to start offensive operation in that area and actually secured blessings from them to do so. And from that, they encountered this close contact in a village. That close contact which they thought initially was going to be a simple cordon and search operation has turned into a major pitched battle against a very highly armed, very determined force who is fortified and has approximately six to seven compounds which are spread around a valley and is fighting to the death in that area.

BLITZER: Is it your sense that they had insight information, human assets, if you will, intelligence information suggesting the No. 2 al Qaeda leader was there or is it simply deduction based on the fierce fighting, the resistance that the Pakistani forces have encountered?

ROBINSON: Well, we -- if I answered that question in a vacuum, I would -- just being in Pakistan, I would say it may be because the bodies and the people they've captured and searched so far. However, having spent the last seven days in Afghanistan, on the other side of the border, speaking with U.S. and Afghan national army forces, one of the things that we saw was an enormous amount of confidence in something, that these -- that these personnel, both Afghani and U.S. felt confident that in the near future, offensive operations were going to gain them some type of a prize. They all had it in an understated way, but they were very confident.

BLITZER: What the Pakistanis have, certainly the U.S. has, are considerable air assets, air power that can be used in this kind of operation, something the al Qaeda forces certainly do not have. Why not simply go in with massive air strikes and get the job done? Is that feasible?

ROBINSON: It is -- operationally, it is very feasible. One of the things that impressed us today in the meetings with President Musharraf and several of his generals were they expressed their concerns over the civilians and the collateral damage in the area. Remember, this is the first time they have operated in this area. And they are very sensitive about the law of land warfare and civilian casualties and the fact that they've got to govern thereafter this combat is over with. Their intention is to do two things. One, to deny these Arab foreign fighters a refuge there, but also to convert the people in the tribal areas to come under the control of the central government and join the community of Pakistan in a greater Pakistan once this foreign fighter threat is reduced.

BLITZER: Our security analyst, Ken Robinson, is in Islamabad. We'll get back to you, Ken. Thanks very much for that information.

He's al Qaeda's No. 2 leader and Osama bin Laden's right-hand man. For a closer look now at Ayman al-Zawahiri. Let's turn to CNN's Jonathan Mann (ph).

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN MANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ayman al-Zawahiri first met Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan during the late 80s.

Al-Zawahiri and bin Laden went public with their terrorist alliance in May of that year. The two men issued a fatwa, a declaration declaring war on them and told Muslims that it was their duty to kill Americans anywhere they found them. A few weeks later, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were attacked by suicide bombers driving trucks. Al-Zawahiri and Osama bin Laden would both be indicted, charged with masterminding those attacks. U.S. government sources believe that al-Zawahiri was a key player in the attacks on Washington and New York. Since September 11, al-Zawahiri raised his public profile, appearing at bin Laden's side in several videos.

AYMAN AL-ZAWAHIRI, OSAMA BIN LADEN RIGHT-HAND MAN (translator): All American people, you must ask yourselves, why all this hate against America.

MANN: He issued this audio tape in October 2002, threatening new attacks against the west.

AL-ZAWAHIRI (through translator): America and its deputies should know their crimes will not go unpunished. We advise them to make a hasty retreat from Palestine, the Iranian gulf, Afghanistan, and the rest of the Muslim states before they lose everything.

MANN: A series of audio messages followed and these pictures of al-Zawahiri and bin Laden released on the second anniversary of 9/11, actual date unknown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We want to speak to the whole world. Who are we? Who are we?

MANN: It has been almost two decades since Ayman al-Zawahiri said he wanted the whole world to hear his message. The world heard. Jonathan Mann, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Ayman al-Zawahiri is on the U.S. government's list of most wanted terrorists in the world. Al-Zawahiri is charged in al Qaeda's worldwide terrorism campaign to kill Americans and destroy U.S. property. He's also charged with the murders of 224 people killed in the 1998 twin truck bombings of the American embassies in Kenya and Tanzania. If al-Zawahiri is captured he could provide a wealth of information but getting it raises a number of serious questions. Our justice correspondent Kelli Arena is joining us now from Washington. Kelly, let's get my first question, what kind of information do officials think that he may really have?

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, being the No. 2 in the al Qaeda structure he could have information about a possible al Qaeda plots that are currently in progress. He may also know the location of other operatives, anything that is found with him, computers, computer disks, documents are just the type of thing that intelligence officers would love to exploit. And almost as importantly, Wolf, he is believed to have regular communication with Osama bin Laden. So while he might not be right there in the same compound or the same exact location, it is thought that they're never very far away from each other. So he may lead investigators, U.S. troops right to Osama bin Laden.

BLITZER: Next question may be a little premature. They certainly have not captured him yet. They're not even 100 percent sure he is in this area. But presumably, if he is, and if they were to capture him alive, how important would it be to interrogate him quickly?

ARENA: Well, the first thing is getting him into U.S. custody, which is fully expected although there may be some maneuvering with Pakistan. He is expected to be whisked away like other al Qaeda operatives to an undisclosed location and the time is of the essence, Wolf. You put your finger right on it.

Those who have interrogated in the past say that right at that moment when you're first captured you're very disoriented, you become unhinged, you have a sense of abandonment. It is then when you are most vulnerable, uniquely vulnerable and may say things that you likewise might not say after a space of time has elapsed and you're somewhat of yourself. So the timing is very, very important. Especially, Wolf, if it's real time information about on going plots. In order to save lives, interrogators would want to get ahold of him as quickly adds possible to get a stop to that.

BLITZER: Kelli Arena, thanks very much. We're standing by to speak with Senator Dianne Feinstein, key member of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Also Pakistan's ambassador to the United Nations will join us this hour as well.

Pakistani military forces are surrounding the No. 2 al Qaeda leader. At least they believe he's the No. 2 al Qaeda leader. But how involved is the U.S. in this operation? We'll go live to the Pentagon. We'll also get reaction from the White House where officials are closely monitoring all of these developments. Our live coverage of this breaking news story will continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Our top story, Pakistani sources say Ayman al-Zawahiri, al Qaeda's No. 2 man may be cornered near the Afghan border. More than 200 al Qaeda fighters are battling Pakistani forces who are said to be planning a heavy air assault in the coming hours.

The Pentagon is offering some help to the Pakistani military but also keeping a distance. Our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre is joining us now with specific details. Jamie, how optimistic are they over at Pentagon?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Pentagon officials, Wolf, are trying to inject a cold dose of reality into the saturation coverage pointing out that there have been other operations in the recent past in which it was believed that high-value targets were surrounded only to discover that they had essentially melted away.

As Defense Secretary Rumsfeld has said on recent occasions about Osama bin Laden, you don't have him until you have him. And close is -- he said, just this week, close doesn't count except in horseshoes and hand grenades.

So the Pentagon is trying to downplay expectations that Zawahiri would be captured and killed in this operation, although obviously they're intensely interested in how this turns out. But it is extremely difficult to get an individual in one operation. The U.S. is using whatever it can to monitor the situation from the air, to be ready if anyone crosses border.

But Pentagon officials here are shaking their heads a little bit about all this coverage, saying that there's a good chance that it's not Zawahiri or he won't be captured -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thanks, Jamie, very much. The White House clearly also watching cautiously as the events unfold in Pakistan. It's warning the war on terror won't be won with simply a single bullet. Let's go live to our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, all eyes are on this search. But I have to basically echo what Jamie said and that is a lot of White House officials here are trying to downplay this as well.

They are saying if this is Zawahiri, they certainly don't know yet, they can't confirm that. They say often first-time reports are wrong. They also say that they have seen this type of activity before. One source telling me that they're not yet excited about this development.

But having said that, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice early today said if this is al Qaeda's No. 2, it would be very significant.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, were it true, it would, of course, be a major step forward in the war on terrorism because he's obviously an extremely important figure.

But I think we have to be careful not to assume that getting one al Qaeda leader is going to break up the organization. We've always said that, even with Osama bin Laden, who we'd all like to see brought to justice, that that will not be the end of al Qaeda. They have local leadership. They have other national leadership.

We have to dismantle the entire network, not just one person.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: So while the White House is keeping a close eye on the developments, they are also downplaying expectations -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House. Thanks, Suzanne, for that.

President Bush's rival for the White House, Senator John Kerry, is taking a break from the campaign trail today. Kerry and his wife are spending five days at their vacation home north of Ketchum in Idaho. A Democratic official says no campaign fund raisers or public events are planned.

How Pakistani military forces are waging their war against al Qaeda and what it will mean in the war on terror if Ayman al-Zawahiri is captured? Insight from retired U.S. Air Force Major General Don Shepperd.

We're also standing by to speak to Senator Dianne Feinstein, a key member of the Intelligence Committee and Pakistan's ambassador to the United Nations. Our live coverage continues. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Updating our top story. Pakistani troops right now are locked in a fierce battle with al Qaeda forces believed to be protecting a senior al Qaeda leader. Pakistani government sources believe that man is Osama bin Laden's No. 2 leader and closest adviser, Ayman al-Zawahiri.

For more insight on all of this, CNN military analyst General Don Sheppard is joining us now by phone from Tel Aviv. What kind of air assets would be needed to try to get this job done in this so-called tribal area between Pakistan and Afghanistan?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, the Waziristanian area, Wolf, is extremely difficult terrain. It's night there right now. And what you would need, if you were trying an ideal operation, would be what the United States has which is targeting pods, night vision devices, people on the ground with marking devices that could designate the targets for airborne people with precision weapons.

The Pakistani air force, although a good air force, does not have all that equipment. It looks like they're going to wait until day to employ probably both fighters and helicopter.

Again, they just don't have the sophisticated equipment the United States has, Wolf.

BLITZER: It's now approaching 3:30 a.m. in Pakistan. So daylight what is another hour or two away from there. The kind of terrain, though, the caves, that would make even sophisticated air power rather complicated, wouldn't it?

SHEPPERD: It would indeed. Basically what air power would do in this particular case is soften up the people that are on the ground for ground assault. But in the final analysis you're very likely to have infantry assaults by dismounted infantry. In other words, the terrain doesn't lend itself to tanks and vehicles. It lends itself to the old soldier with a rifle and other -- and other weapons, Wolf.

It's just very difficult terrain. If you could pick terrain you wouldn't want to fight in, this would be right at the top of the list. It's really difficult stuff there.

BLITZER: So, General Sheppard, assuming Pakistani ground forces command a special operation forces infantry, whatever they have going in there, have to go in on the ground and do it. This is a battle that could last for days, couldn't it?

SHEPPERD: It could, indeed, especially because of the terrain, people that are fanatical fighters that are going to fight until the death are going to hold themselves up and can last a long time even when they come under air assault and artillery assault from a determined force like the Pakistanis.

The Pakistani ground forces, as you mentioned, all of those exist. They're very good forces. The first thing you have to do is block off the area where you think the people are. And, of course, the fact that you're not able to operate all night long with all of your air and ground assets means that people can escape.

So this could last several days. And also, we are all assuming that it's al-Zawahiri because of the remarks being made. But that probably came from human intelligence. We'll have to wait until the fight is over to determine if it's true.

BLITZER: General Shepperd, if this were normal military combatants and one side had a decisive edge, you would think the losing side would be willing to surrender and live. But what you're suggesting is, these forces loyal to al Qaeda may be committed to fighting to the death. Is that the kind of intelligence that you've heard about these forces?

SHEPPERD: Indeed. That's what we've heard about the forces. Almost no matter where they are, or in whatever country they are they're willing to die for what they perceive to be their cause.

Now of course, in a group of 200, which is what this group is rumored to be, or reported to be, let's put it that way, you will probably find some that will fight to the death and some that may give up.

I understand that the Pakistanis have made announcements that these folks should give up. And then the group started firing in the fierce fighting broke out after that. So it doesn't look like they're going to give up, Wolf.

BLITZER: General Don Shepperd joining us with insight as he often does. Thanks, General Shepperd, for taking some time today.

There's much more ahead on this developing story. Up next, we'll live to Islamabad, Pakistan for the latest on the search.

We'll also hear part of that exclusive interview that CNN conducted, Aaron Brown conducted with President Musharraf in Islamabad earlier today.

Also, I'll speak with our terrorism analyst, Peter Bergen. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN. I'm Wolf Blitzer reporting from New York. You're looking at a picture of Ayman al-Zawahiri. Intelligence sources indicating that al Qaeda's No. 2 man is surrounded right now. We'll go live to Pakistan.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

Spanish authorities have arrested five more people in connection with last week's deadly train bombings in Madrid. Their arrests bring the number of suspect in custody to 11. The bombings happened a week ago today and killed more than 200 people. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia says he will not recuse himself from a controversial case involving Vice President Dick Cheney and documents related to an Energy Task Force. The plaintiffs asked Scalia to step down, saying a hunting trip he took with Cheney created an appearance of impropriety.

A Fresno, California man faces arraignment today on charges he shot and killed nine of his children. Police also are looking into whether Marcus Wesson killed his children while officers waited outside his house as what began as a custody dispute.

Jury deliberations have begun in New York in the five-month trial of Tyco International's former CEO Dennis Koslowski and former CFO Mark Schwartz. Jurors must decide if the pair looted more than $600 million from the company. Both are charged be grand larceny, falsifying records, and violating state business laws.

And we'll show you some pictures we're getting in. These are live pictures from north Miami, Dade County right now. There's a large brush fire underway just off I-75 near the Florida Turnpike. You can see those fires in that area just off the road right there, off the interstate. We'll watch what's happening in North Miami and get back to it. But, right now, the first of a series of large brushfires anticipated in this coming season.

But let's return now to the fierce battle unfolding in Pakistan near the Afghan border. Pakistani sources tell CNN they believe al Qaeda's No. 2 man, Ayman al-Zawahri, is cornered there. Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf spoke to CNN's Aaron Brown, but was unwilling to name names.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: But the resistance that is being offered by the people there, we feel that there may be a high value target. I can't say who. But they are giving pitched battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we have pounded them with artillery.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: You can see the complete interview that Aaron had with the President Pervez Musharraf. That's coming up at 10:00 p.m. Eastern here on CNN.

CNN's Ash-har Quraishi is joining us now via videophone from Islamabad with an update.

What do you know how, Ash-har?

ASH-HAR QURAISHI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, military officials say they are waiting for daybreak, just a few hours away, to launch further operations now.

They are in a holding pattern at this time. They have cornered off this area in which the -- some 200 -- more than 200 al Qaeda fighters are holed up. Intelligence sources telling us they are protecting Osama bin Laden's No. 2 lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahri, at this time. They are holding and there is some concern on the ground by military officials that in the dark they may have some of these al Qaeda fighters trying to escape, trying to get through there.

This is very difficult, very, very treacherous terrain in Waziristan in northwest Pakistan in the tribal belt, where this operation has been ongoing all day, basically, and part of further operations that have been continuing through the week -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Ash-har Quraishi reporting for us from Islamabad -- Ash-har, thanks very much for that.

Joining us now on the phone is a key member of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence, Senator Dianne Feinstein, Democrat of California.

There have been optimistic moments in the past. What is your sense right now, Senator, what's going on?

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, my sense is, this is another, as you put it, optimistic moment. If it works out, and if he can either be captured or done away with, it is a major step forward. I don't think anyone is closer to Osama bin Laden than this man.

No one is certainly better steeped in terror than this man. No one has had more responsibility for the embassy bombings and for 9/11 than this man. And probably he's been responsible for a lot of the medical care that Osama bin Laden has received. So if anyone would know the whereabouts, would know the plans, would know the intentions on both a small scale and a large scale of al Qaeda, it would be this man. So this would be a major trophy in the battle against terror. No question about that.

BLITZER: I know over the past few years that you've been on the committee, Senator Feinstein, you've been well briefed by U.S. intelligence experts. Do they often travel together, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahri, or are they traveling separately, based on what you've been told?

FEINSTEIN: Well, recently, I haven't been told. But they have been together for a long period of time. If they are together, I would think you would be 99 percent certain that they were in communication. I doubt that this No. 2 would leave No. 1 for long, if ever, to be very candid.

It just -- their operation has always been in sync. Virtually all the photographs that have come through of bin Laden have had Zawahri with him. So I would think a separation of great distance is certainly unlikely.

BLITZER: In contrast, though, the Taliban leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar, still at large. I've been told often in the past by U.S. intelligence experts that he almost certainly doesn't travel with Osama bin Laden. Is that your sense as well? FEINSTEIN: Well, that's my sense. I mean, I think the Taliban is a different thing, supported by al Qaeda, but, you know, and at times can move together, but also a separate movement.

BLITZER: Key in all of this is the cooperation of the Pakistani president, Pervez Musharraf. He has really gone out on a limb in recent months and is cooperating with the U.S. in the war on terror. Is there anything that the U.S. government, based on what you know, would like him to do that he's not doing?

FEINSTEIN: Well, I think he's doing right now exactly what our government would want him to do. And that is to take vigorous military action in the areas on the borders of Pakistan where it's most likely that many of the al Qaeda are and that the al Qaeda leadership is.

So I think it's a very brave action, may well have been precipitated by two very serious attempts on Musharraf's life. But certainly General Musharraf is now out front and center and moving aggressively. I think that deserves our very strong support and our kudos, if not a lot of other things as well. This is a very significant move.

BLITZER: Senator Feinstein, in the past, when Pakistan has captured terrorists, they've often handed those terrorists over to the United States if those terrorists were engaged in killing Americans. Do you have any doubt, based on what you know right now, that either Osama bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahri would be handed over to the U.S. if captured alive?

FEINSTEIN: No, I don't, if that's what we wanted. But there may be reasons why we would not want to do that. I mean, I really can't speculate on that one.

But I would think the fact that Musharraf has gone this far out on a limb to really, in a military way, go after him most significantly would indicate that he would cooperate with the United States in whatever our government felt was the best course, should he be captured alive.

BLITZER: The only explanation I could imagine, Senator Feinstein, why the U.S. might not want, let's say, Osama bin Laden or Ayman al-Zawahri is because foreign intelligent services might be able to use interrogation techniques that might not be used by the U.S. Is that what you were referring to?

FEINSTEIN: Well, yes, that's what I was referring to. And it would seem to me that the most important information is obviously where No. 1, Osama bin Laden, is. And this is the best source of that information.

So if it's going to be had, I think you would have to get it fairly rapidly or, you know, bin Laden and many of his supporters certainly watch the news and the likelihood is that he will change locations.

BLITZER: Senator Feinstein, thanks for joining us.

FEINSTEIN: OH, you're very welcome. Happy to do it. Thanks.

BLITZER: Thank you.

FEINSTEIN: Bye, Wolf.

BLITZER: Let's bring back our CNN terrorism analyst Peter Bergen. He's an expert on al Qaeda who has actually interviewed Osama bin Laden, joining us once again from Washington.

You heard that last little exchange I had with Senator Feinstein on perhaps a foreign intelligent service using interrogation means that the U.S. may not feel comfortable with. I'm curious, Peter, if you want to weigh in on that.

PETER BERGEN, CNN TERRORISM ANALYST: Well, we know Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, who is the operational mastermind of 9/11, there's some indication based on conversations I've had with Pakistanis and American officials that he may have been given some kind of interrogation that wouldn't be exactly fit with American interrogation techniques by the Pakistanis.

He very quickly gave up a piece of information about Osama bin Laden. He was arrested back in March and he said that he had seen bin Laden within the last month or two before that. So that's the sort of information that you need to find out very quickly. Certainly, there is I think plenty of evidence that we have used other foreign intelligence agencies, not just the Pakistanis, whose forensic techniques may be just very different from, let's say, the FBI and we've done that sort of knowingly because obviously you want to get your information as quickly as possible.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Al Zawahri, Peter, as you well know, as our viewers, most of them at least know by now, 52 years old. He's a medical doctor. And he's often provided some treatment, we're told, to Osama bin Laden himself. Based on what you know right now, we've heard also -- I've heard all sorts of conflicting information on how sick Osama bin Laden may be. What is the information that you have?

BERGEN: I've looked at this quickly pretty carefully.

I'll tell you what. Bin Laden has a number of health problems. He has low pressure. He has diabetes. He has sustained a wound to his foot in the mid-'80s. And he also sustained a pretty serious shoulder wound in the battle of Tora Bora in December of 2001. There have been a number of rumors out there that he's suffering from some sort of severe kidney disease. I'm afraid they're much overblown.

People I talk to say that while he may have some sort of kidney complaint, he's not suffering from some sort of major kidney disease. If he was suffering from a major kidney, he would have to have dialysis weekly. Very unlikely he's getting that in the kinds of areas he's in. But I think, as you pointed out earlier, certainly, as -- Senator Feinstein said this -- Ayman al-Zawahri is bin Laden's doctor. Obviously, bin Laden does have health problems.

And the fact is that he's been relying on Ayman al-Zawahri as his doctor since the mid-'80s. So that would imply that, even if they are not together, they are in fairly constant communication, because bin Laden does have enough health problems that he needs some kind of medical attention. Look at the last pictures we saw of him.

Here we see him before 9/11. The last pictures we saw of him were December 27, 2001. He looked like he was 20 years older than the pictures we're seeing right now. So he has obviously got some health problems. I don't think they're life-threatening. I don't think he's going to die of natural causes.

BLITZER: Peter Bergen, our CNN terrorism another, Peter, thanks very much for that.

And we'll have much more coming up on these important developments in Pakistan, including an interview I'll have coming up momentarily with Pakistan's ambassador to the United Nations.

Also coming up, another deadly day in Iraq. As the war's one- year anniversary nears, that would be tomorrow, chaos and destruction only seem to mount.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Once again, our top story, al Qaeda's No. 2 man, Ayman al-Zawahri, may be surrounded by Pakistani troops near the border with Afghanistan. That's the word from Pakistani government sources. Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf tells CNN his forces are pounding the area, but meeting fires resistance. Sources say an air assault is planned for first light. That's only about two hours or so away.

Joining us now from the United Nations, Pakistan's ambassador to the U.N., Munir Akram.

Mr. Ambassador, thanks very much for joining us.

Please update our viewers on what you know precisely what's unfolding in this area along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

MUNIR AKRAM, PAKISTANI AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: Well, I think that, as you have been informed, we have launched this operation in south Waziristan.

It's been ongoing for the couple of days. There has been heavy fighting, especially yesterday, when our forces met very strong resistance from these elements in the area. They have counterattacked. And we are now poised to surround these elements. But I think that the next day will tell how the operation will go.

BLITZER: And is it your sense, as we've been hearing from Pakistani intelligence sources, that al Qaeda's No. 2, Ayman al- Zawahri, may be at the center of this battle? AKRAM: Well, we, I don't think, are in a position to make any identification of who is there.

But what is certain is that we have met very strong resistance, unusually strong resistance, from this group. And this indicates that there is a high-value target which is involved. So one could make a guess. But, at this moment, we do not have precise information as to who exactly is there.

BLITZER: Beyond the level of resistance, the fact that they've been fighting, in the words of one U.S. official, fighting like crazy, for the -- fighting very ferociously to try to protect whoever may be at the center of this battle, was there also some information that you received, that your government received, suggesting Ayman al-Zawahri was there?

AKRAM: I don't think that we have any concrete information. And, if we did, I am not certain that we would wish to share it.

But we know that there is a high-value target there. Whoever it is, whether it's Zawahri or somebody else high up in the chain, we have to -- we have to succeed in this operation. And that's what we are focused on at the moment. We'll see who's there once we get there.

BLITZER: When we suggest that this unit, believed to be al Qaeda, believed to include No. 2 al Qaeda there, may be surrounded by Pakistani forces, how big of an area are we talking about? How far away would you sense that the Pakistani military is from these al Qaeda forces?

AKRAM: Well, the area of south Waziristan is fairly large. It's, I would hazard to guess, around half the size of New Jersey at least. So it's -- and it's very difficult terrain.

Our forces are spread out. We have 70,000 forces on the border with Afghanistan, but these are spread out. We launched these operations in response to intelligence that we received, either human intelligence, electronic intelligence, intelligence from U.S. sources. And this operation obviously was in response to such -- such gathering of intelligence.

So -- but the whole force, it obviously cannot be deployed at one point. And it is a fairly large area. So it has had to deploy. It has had to redeploy as the fighting has proceeded. But now we feel that we are in a favorable position with regard to these foreign elements, who, as I said, have been fighting very ferociously, as you stated. And, therefore, we believe that they have a high-value target with them.

BLITZER: Let me be precise. One U.S. official told me they're fighting -- quote -- "like hell" to defend this position.

Ambassador Munir Akram, thanks very much for spending a few moments with us here at CNN.

AKRAM: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: When we come back, we'll also hear President Bush. He was asked about all of these reports that the No. 2 al Qaeda leader may be surrounded right now. We'll share what the president had to say only moments ago. We'll get to all of that.

First, though, some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): NATO is sending more peacekeepers to Kosovo in a bid to stop a wave of violence that's killed almost two dozen people. The crisis erupted yesterday, when ethnic Albanians went on the rampage after blaming Serbs for the drowning deaths of two children. It's said to be the worse violence since the provinces' war ended in 1999.

Gaza withdraws. Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is stepping up efforts to gain support for an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. It comes a day after deadly military strikes on Palestinian militants, a move triggered by Sunday's suicide bombing that killed 10 Israelis.

Best of all of noise and fire. It's the way the Spanish city of Valencia welcomes spring. Huge caricatures of politicians and celebrities made of paper and plastic are set on fire, much to the delight of hundreds of thousands of party-goers on hand.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: CNN's Aaron Brown first learned about the fighting in Pakistan in an exclusive interview with Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf. We'll get to that interview in a moment.

But just a few moments ago, the president of the United States was walking into the White House and he was questioned by reporters about this information that the No. 2 al Qaeda leader may be surrounded. Let's listen to what the president had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We don't know anything new.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Clearly, he says he doesn't know yet what precisely is going on. We'll monitor what's happening at the White House. We'll monitor what's happening elsewhere specifically along the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Let's listen, though, briefly to some excerpts from Aaron Brown's interview with the Pakistani president. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERVEZ MUSHARRAF, PAKISTANI PRESIDENT: Resistance that is being offered by the people there, we feel that there may be a high value target. I can't say who. But they are giving pitched battle at the moment. They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we have pounded them with artillery.

I spoke with the corps commander just now. I knew you were going to ask me this question. So I talked with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) The net is there. They are there. They see very strong, dug-in positions. The houses actually there are almost forts. And they are mud forts. And all these forts are occupied, and they are dug in. And they are giving fierce resistance. So, he's reasonably sure there's a high- value target there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And you can see the full interview, Aaron Brown's full interview with Pakistan's President Musharraf on "NEWSNIGHT." That airs tonight, 10:00 p.m. Eastern, 7:00 p.m. Pacific. Aaron will be reporting live from Islamabad.

U.S. Central Command says two U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan were killed, two others were wounded during a firefight this afternoon. They were part of a patrol that came under attack. The U.S. military's Central Command said soldiers returned fire, killing at least five of their attackers.

Turning now to the situation in Iraq, a day after a devastating bombing in Baghdad and a day before the war's anniversary, there was no letup in the violence. The death toll from yesterday's blast outside Baghdad's Mount Lebanon Hotel has been revised downward to seven. Coalition officials say it was a suicide car bomb.

There was another blast today in the southern Iraqi city of Basra near another hotel. Three people were reported killed along with the suspected suicide bomber.

The latest on our top story, that's just ahead. Sources say Pakistani troops may have al Qaeda's No. 2 leader surrounded near the Afghan border. We'll update you on this developing story immediately when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: As we get ready to conclude this special edition of WOLF BLITZER REPORTS, here's what we know about the breaking news from Pakistan. Let's recap for our viewers.

Pakistan says its troops are battling well-trained, well-equipped al Qaeda forces near the Afghan border. Pakistani sources say the Pakistanis have al Qaeda's No. 2 leader, Ayman al-Zawahri, surrounded and a heavy airstrike is planned in the coming hours. Zawahri is considered to be Osama bin Laden's closest confidante.

Stay with CNN for continuing coverage tonight.

This programming note, because of the breaking news out of Pakistan, we were unable to bring you my interview with Donald Trump. We will bring that to you on a later occasion.

You can always catch us weekdays 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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