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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Deadly Fighting in Iraq, Heavy Casualties Reported on Both Sides, Is History Repeating Itself in Iraq?

Aired April 07, 2004 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. Shutting down the Iraqi resistance. The Bush administration sending a strong message to two men inspiring the attacks.

On the ground. U.S. troops are sending their own message with force. All this while the Pentagon maps out the fighting from around the country.

Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

The battle for Iraq.

Deadly fighting in major cities across the country. A charged standoff with a radical cleric whose militia has seized key government buildings.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: We will attack to destroy the Mehdi army.

BLITZER: U.S. casualties mounting. Contingency plans for more troops. Have we seen it all before?

JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I happen to know something about Vietnam and I know we don't face another Vietnam.

BLITZER: Is the U.S. facing a quagmire? Two congressmen face off. Democrat Dennis Kucinich and Republican Mark Foley.

Historical precedence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I absolutely think history is repeating itself.

BLITZER: Another time, another occupier. Are there lessons to be learned about Iraq from the not so distant past?

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Wednesday, April 7, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq are engaged in the fiercest fighting since President Bush declared an end to major combat almost one year ago. The enemy insurgents who have plagued the occupation from the start and now, a Shiite militia whose leader is holed up in one of the country's holiest sites. Casualties on all sides are heavy and the outcome uncertain.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): City by city, insurgents and coalition forces slug it out with lethal intensity. Fallujah, the scene of pitched street battles between Sunni insurgents and U.S. marines. Witnesses report marines fighting door to door with militia men trying to hunt them down.

KIMMITT: They now have got brave marines and Iraqi civil defense corps soldiers inside the city. They are taking out the enemy one by one and all the enemies of the Iraqi people.

BLITZER: Elsewhere in the area, a U.S. helicopter and an Abrams battle tank are hit and damaged. Some observers believe this operation in Fallujah should have been launched before U.S. civilian contractors were killed there last week.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: They are finally going in and trying to pacify these parts of Iraq that were left absolutely lawless, that were left in the hands of the opposition figures for 12 months. This was an enormous mistake.

BLITZER: Just northwest of Fallujah in Ramadi, U.S. generals say American forces have firm control of the city. 24 hours after 12 marines are killed in a ferocious attack. One of the deadliest days since the war began. More than 20 marines were wounded. Dozens of Iraqi insurgents killed. The attackers, believed by the Pentagon to be remnants of Saddam Hussein's Baath party.

Baghdad, the U.S. army bulks up its forces in the teaming slum of Sadr city. Stronghold of the anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. The U.S. estimates his militia there at 3,000 strong. Which has already killed several U.S. troops this week. And the coalition expects resistance as it seeks to apprehend Sadr on murder charges.

Al-Sadr himself still holed up further south in the holy city of Najaf. His army has control of that city but a U.S. general says coalition forces have a strong presence on the outskirts. Still in the south, in Karbala, al-Sadr's militias fight with Polish coalition troops. To the east in Kut, al-Sadr's forces also engaging Ukrainian soldiers where Ukrainians take casualties and withdraw from the city.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff General Richard Myers held a news conference just over an hour ago. They said the coalition remains in control in Iraq but some troops may have their deployment extended because of the violence. Our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre is joining us now live with more details -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, despite the rising violence and the mounting U.S. casualty count, the Pentagon insists that Iraq is not spinning out of control. Today Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did call the situation a test of wills but he rejected the idea this represented a turning point.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We're here pointing out what is taking place in the country. Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You have -- you are going to have good days and bad days as we said from the outset. This is a moment in Iraq's path toward a Democratic and a free system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says the big problem is essentially two bad guys, they are pointing out that Musab Zarqawi, a bin Laden associate is inciting some of the Sunni violence and Muqtada al-Sadr the Shiite cleric is inciting some of the Shiite violence. They say their followers represent a very small percentage of the population.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: It was not unanticipated or unexpected that we would see some resistance of that. But the fact remains that he and Zarqawi, former regime elements that have this hope that they can stop progress for 25 million Iraqis is just not going to happen. We're not going to let it happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Well, the Pentagon has about 20,000 extra troops in Iraq at the moment because they are rotating troops. Today the Pentagon said some of the troops may have to stay past their one-year tour of duty in order to see this situation through. Sources tell us that that may include some units of the 1st armored division which may be redeployed south to help handle the violence -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre with the latest at the Pentagon. Jamie, thanks very much.

Whether it's urban warfare or battles by the numbers, are coalition forces up to countering relentless insurgent attacks. Joining us now Retired U.S. army Lieutenant General Dan Christman. He's here to consider some of these military matters. General, does the U.S. have enough troops on the ground right now in Iraq?

LT. GEN. DAN CHRISTMAN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): My suspicion, Wolf, is that we'll probably need some more. I trust General Abizaid as we heard the defense secretary say, General Abizaid is going to come in with a recommendation. We also see the writing on the wall. I think we'll extend some deployments here. Keep the applause up there in theater to ensure that we at least have enough people to go in on some of the specific points of urgency and secure them.

BLITZER: Everyone from the top down from the president of the United States on down says between now and June 30 when sovereignty is supposed to be returned to the Iraqis it will get worse as the insurgents, the Shiites, the Sunnis, all of them try to make their point. If that's the case shouldn't they beef up the presence at least until then?

CHRISTMAN: Again, it's my suspicion the answer is yes and I suspect we probably will through the mechanism that I have outlined. But frankly, Wolf, my more immediate concern is not June 30. My concern right now is the Shia festival of Ashura. We've got hundreds of thousands of pilgrims there. I think very few people realize what Ashura represents. That was the battle in the seventh century A.D. where the prophet's grandson was killed. He's a martyr, he was fighting them, a ferocious occupying power. This has enormous symbolism. The concern now is whether it will spin out of control. Notwithstanding the numbers that are involved here. This is a very delicate moment. So I'm really focused on these next seven to ten days in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) area.

BLITZER: The religious fervor could get very intense as we heard from Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff only a little while ago. Given that, given the sensitivity, given the fact that Muqtada al-Sadr may be holed up in a mosque. What can the U.S. military do?

CHRISTMAN: I think there are two battles that are being fought. The more dangerous in my judgment is the Shia battle in Najaf, in Karbala to the areas south of Baghdad. I think in the Fallujah case we already see the solution in hand. That's very strong marine presence securing that city and taking down the remnants of the Baathist resistance. That will evolve, I think, and evolve successfully. In the Shia area this is so terribly delicate. I think we've already laid a marker down. We will take down the Mehdi army. That's not going to be easy. The symbolism there is also important.

BLITZER: That's the army of Muqtada al-Sadr which is a ragtag army but potentially could grow.

CHRISTMAN: It's not the numbers that worry me. Again it's the symbolism and the perceptions that grow by going after -- during this period, I come back to the Shia holiday again, during this period going after that unit and also after Sadr himself.

BLITZER: 24 hours ago we were reporting extensively on the battle in Ramadi. Were the marines who were sent in there only a few weeks ago caught by surprise?

CHRISTMAN: I think there's also an issue when a unit like the marines replaces a long-standing element like the 92nd Airborne Division. My indications, my sources tell me that was a smooth transition. I think what we found here was some very, very intelligent applications by the Baathist remnants recognizing the newness of the force to go after them in power. That was sadly a bloody engagement.

BLITZER: General Christman, the former superintendent of West Point. Thanks very much for joining us.

Here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question of the day is this, should the United States stick to that June 30 deadline for transfer of power in Iraq? You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast.

A conflict that resembles the past comparisons of a previous Iraqi occupation to the current one. Is history repeating itself?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R) ARIZONA: Is this a difficult political problem? Yes. Is it the time to panic, to cut and run? Absolutely not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Strong opinions on the U.S. Senate floor as tin tense fighting in Iraq fuels heated debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The time has come for a new approach in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: More diverse political reaction. That's coming from Capitol Hill.

Plus, representatives Mark Foley and Dennis Kucinich, they will square off live on all of these issues. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: President Bush was briefed on the situation in Iraq at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. The president participated in a teleconference with his national security adviser as he also discussed Iraq in a phone conference with the British prime minister Tony Blair. He comes to Washington next week. The president plans to remain at his Crawford ranch through Easter.

The violence in Iraq is fueling sharp debate on Capitol Hill. Our congressional correspondent Joe Johns is standing by with details -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there are questions whether more troops are needed. Questions whether the deadline for transition ought to be extended and most emotional of all, perhaps, is whether Iraq is becoming another Vietnam.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS (voice-over): The escalating violence in Iraq is causing a heated debate in the U.S. Senate over comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam. Republican Senator John McCain, a Vietnam veteran, said the comparisons are flat wrong.

MCCAIN: I happen to know something about Vietnam and I know we don't face another Vietnam.

JOHNS: Senator Edward Kennedy, John Kerry's closest ally in Congress, first made the comparison on Monday. He was followed today by the Senate's leading critic of the Iraq war, Robert Byrd. Byrd compared the current violence to Tennyson's "Charge of the Light Brigade."

SEN. ROBERT BYRD, (D) WEST VIRGINIA: There's not a reason why, there's but to do and die. Into the valley of death rode the 600.

JOHNS: Then he said the V word.

BYRD: Surely, I am not the only one who hears echoes of Vietnam in this development.

JOHNS: Republicans are furious, Senator Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, a hardliner on defense, said American lives could be endanger by statements made by politicians.

SEN. SAXY CHAMBLISS, (R) GEORGIA: Statements that tend to insight the opposition and to put our men and women in greater harm's way.

JOHNS: The Senate's top Democrat, while voicing support for the troops, accused Republicans of trying to stifle debate.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE, (D-SD) MINORITY LEADER: I think in an open democracy, people ought to have a right to express themselves without fear of character assassination.

QUESTION: Even in a time of war?

DASCHLE: Absolutely, especially in a time of war.

JOHNS: Kerry, another Vietnam veteran, steered clear of the argument.

SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No matter what disagreements over how to approach the policy in Iraq, and we have some, we are all united as a nation in supporting our troops and ultimately in our goal of a stable Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: Daschle and some Democrats suggest more troops may in fact be needed in Iraq, the Senate majority leader Bill Frist has said the Pentagon will get whatever it needs. Back to you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks very much. Joe Johns, reporting from Capitol Hill.

Despite all the headlines about the war in Iraq, the Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry talked about the economy today in what his aides billed as a major speech at Washington's Georgetown University, Kerry blasted President Bush's economic policies and laid out his own budget plans.

The Massachusetts Senator promised to cut the federal deficit in half over four years by eliminating what he called corporate welfare. And rolling back tax cuts for Americans earning more than $200,000 a year. He also promised more funding for healthcare and education.

The Bush campaign says kerry's plans to expand government programs contradict his deficit reduction pledge.

U.S. troops involved in fierce fighting against Iraqi insurgents. Are the battle lines expanding out of U.S. control?

Representative Dennis Kucinich and Mark Foley, they are coming up to debate this issue.

Testifying under pressure: what questions can Condoleezza Rice expect? She testifies tomorrow. We'll speak to a 9/11 commission member.

Mississippi train derailment: investigators on the scene right now working to try to determine why this train left the tracks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Iraq's violent transition from a brutal dictatorship into occupation and to hope for democracy isn't the first time a western power has tried to remake Iraq. CNN's Brian Todd looks at the historic parallels between the U.S. led coalition and an earlier occupation and how some problems are repeating themselves.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Power, moving south to north toward Baghdad. The city falls. The invading nation begins a long occupation. The population is at first grateful, but problems soon begin. The time: World War I and it's aftermath. The occupier, the mighty British empire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were so many parallels...

TODD: Try this one, March 1917, upon capturing Baghdad from the Ottoman Turks, the British commander General Stanley Modd, tells the local population our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerers or enemies but as liberators. March 2003, vice president Dick Cheney.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My belief is we will in fact be greeted as liberators.

JANEL WALLACH, AUTHOR DESERT QUEEN: I absolutely think history is preeting itself. I think it's too bad that before the United States went in we didn't take a really good look at what happened during and after World War I.

TODD (voice-over): Driven by ambitious policymakers including a young Winston Churchill, the British rationale was invasion was different, at least on the surface. Britains sought to protect its trade interests in nearby India, threatened by the Ottoman Turks and Germans, but also targeted valuable oil deposits in Iraq.

(voice-over): Then as now, the western force installs its own administrators. Makes promise of Iraqi self-rule and stability, but cannot control hostile Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, who, along with local warring tribes constantly fight each other until the British give them reason to unite.

WALLACH: All of it is anger against a foreign western nonMuslim occupier. I think that's key.

TODD: Another parallel, spring, 1920. Fed up with heavy handed British rule, Iraqis of all factions revolt. The fighting lasts for months. The rebellion is eventually suppressed, partly with Britain's use of overwhelming air power and at great cost. Thousands of Iraqis, at least 500 British killed. Some still resting where Baghdad's north gate once stood.

AMATZIA BARAM, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: The British wanted to stay in Iraq for as long as they could. And that was a good reason to want them out.

TODD: As with so many of their imperial conquests, Britain's experience in the cradle of civilization drags on. They eventually install a foreign Arab king, cede independence to Iraq in 1932 and pack up. Nearly 90 years after this gamble, geopolitics have changed considerably. But on the streets of Iraq, ancient loyalties to religious sect, tribe, neighborhood, have changing strikingly little. Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Joining us now to talk about the overall situation in Iraq, two members of the United States Congress, Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich, he's joining us from Portland, Oregon. And Republican Congressman Mark Foley. He's is joining us from Bonyton Beach in Florida.

First of all, Congressman Kucinich, make the case why you believe the U.S. should simply pull out of Iraq right now.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, (D) OHIO: Well, we need to go to the U.N. with a whole new plan that brings in U.N. peacekeepers and brings our troops home. We cannot continue to be an occupying army there withoug exacting huge tolls, without causing greater life to the U.S., Iraqis and inevitably, precipitating a draft by next year.

So, we have to take a new plan. That involves asking the U.N. to handle the oil assets of Iraq on behalf of the Iraqi people, until they are self-governing, same with the contracts, renouncing privatization with Iraq. Asking the U.N. to help develop a new constitution and old elections in Iraq.

That's part after plan, Wolf, that will enable us to bring in U.N. peacekeepers and bring our troops home. And we should get to work on that plan immediately and work to bring our troops home.

BLITZER: Congressman Foley, what is wrong with Congressman Kucinich's thinking?

REP. MARK FOLEY, (R) FLORIDA: Well, if we take his thoughts and run them forward, and if we do in fact leave with our tail between our legs whether we get the U.N. in or not, we will have a cataclysmic result follow. No American will be safe anywhere in the globe.

This fight must be taken to the streets of Iraq. We must fight the insurgents. We will win this battle. And we will liberate the good people of Iraq. But to suggest we just hand over the keys and say, U.N. why don't you take it, is not only foolish, it's dangerous.

The al Qaeda, the terrorists, the international cells, that seek to harm American citizens and other allies of ours will feel they have been victorious and they will come at us in every corner of the earth.

BLITZER: Go ahead, Congressman Kucinich.

KUCINICH: The fact of the matter is our presence in Iraq has made America less safe not more safe. Al Qaeda gained a foot hold in Iraq it did not have once we began attacking Iraq. It was wrong to go in. I think the American people know by now, that our war in Iraq is waged under false pretenses. Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction. It was wrong to go in. It's wrong to stay.

BLITZER: But Congressman Kucinich, what about the point that Congressman Foley makes that this will advertise U.S. weakness and make the United States vulnerable, and its allies in the region vulnerable/

KUCINICH: No, this is the same kind of argument that was used to keep us in Vietnam and resulted in 50,000 American deaths and more. We have to realize that this idea of not cutting and running, staying the course, is an errogance, a hubris to it, which will commit us to a war we did not have to fight in the first place, cause casualties we do not have to incur and cause us to put us on a path to a draft.

We're about to get deeper into this, Wolf. I respect Congressman Foley. He is certainly articulate and dedicated to his point of view. But I have to tell you, we're getting into this deeper and should stop and say wait a minute, why should we continue to have this kind of loss of life and get deeper into it when in the end we're going to have to need the U.N. to resolve this.

BLITZER: Congressman Foley, Senator Kennedy says this is George Bush's Vietnam.

FOLEY: Well, they are using the V word very frequently the last couple days. And obviously President Kennedy was the one that got us into Vietnam and Senator Kennedy is reflecting back on history which I don't think is a fair comparison. And I will take the word of Senator John McCain who is a prisoner of war, who knows the difference between the current conflict or that conflict in Vietnam. They are dramatically different. The world is a different place. And I would suggest to you, Neville Chamberlain didn't think Hitler was much of a problem at the time and some of our Democratic counterparts are assuming somehow that Saddam Hussein wasn't really a bad guy. He killed a million of his own people. The man needed to be removed. The skirmishes that are occurring today will be brought to an end.

BLITZER: All right.

FOLEY: We will win this conflict in Iraq and the people will be free.

BLITZER: Some Republicans, Congressman Kucinich, suggesting the talk he of Vietnam is giving aid and comfort to the enemy in Iraq right now further endangering the live of U.S. military personnel. What do you say to that criticism?

KUCINICH: I say CNN just did a report making a comparison what happened in Iraq in the 1920s, where the British were driven out 12 years later and where we are right now, where people are saying history is repeating itself. I think it's a legitimate comparison to see that we're in a war right now that could last ten years, 12 years or more, apropos of your earlier report. We should be concerned about that.

Barbara Tuchman, in her work called "The March of Folly," talked about how nations throughout history have pursued a path where worse was the better reason. We need to look at this and look at it clearly, the Democrats ought to be taking a position which challenges our presence in Iraq and challenges the administration for taking us there.

Wolf, frankly, that's why I'm remaining in this race so the Democrats can have a voice that raises these questions and so they have to take a path toward peace and getting out of Iraq, bringing our troops home.

BLITZER: Conressman Foley, I'm going to give you the last word.

FOLEY: If Dennis thinks the U.N. is going to walk in after we leave, he's sadly mistaken. We have to stay there. We would encourage them to come along side of us and help us fight this battle. But for someone to assume, who is running for president, that we just say we're out of here, you do it, good luck, it's not

KUCINICH: I didn't say that, Mark. First the U.N. in, then we come out.

BLITZER: Congressman Foley go ahead.

FOLEY: No, Wolf, I just think we have a serious mission ahead of us. We know the difficulties we face. The United States will stand tall. The men and women who are on the ground who are fighing have the support of the Congress. We're not going to let them down. This president is committed to staying on course and I salute him for that determination. BLITZER: A good debate. Two United States Congressmen, Dennis Kucinich thanks very much for joining us. Mark Foley, as usual, thanks to you as well.

U.S. troops battling Iraq's the so-called Mehdi Army. The militia loyal to the Shiite cleric Muqtada al Sadr. I'll talk with an author who spent time inside al-Sadr's inner circle.

The White House questions his credibility, but who is the real Richard Clarke? There is a complex picture that's being painted by some of his former colleagues.

Legal battle over radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh's medical records. Will a judge allow them to be used against him?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN.

Much of the fresh violence in Iraq centers around a young Shiite cleric with militant rhetoric and equally militant followers. Coming up, we speak to a man who was warned by Muqtada al-Sadr's inner circle to get out of the Iraq because it's getting too nasty. We'll get to that interview.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

Rush Limbaugh's medical records were the focus of an appeals court hearing in Florida today. An attorney said the radio host's privacy rights were violated when investigators seized those records. A criminal investigation into Limbaugh's use of painkillers is stalled until the court rules on the records.

Melissa Ann Rowland pleaded guilty to two counts of child endangerment in Utah today. Rowland is the woman accused of killing one of her twins by not getting a C-section. Under today's plea bargain, a murder charge against Rowland was dropped.

Federal investigators are on the scene of a deadly train derailment in Mississippi. One person was killed when Amtrak's the City of New Orleans went off the tracks about 40 miles northwest of Jackson; 58 people were hurt. The cause of the accident isn't known.

We return now to Iraq, where the most ferocious fighting in months rages on. Coalition troops are squaring off with insurgents in cities throughout Iraq.

CNN's Jim Clancy has an update from the ground.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Abrams tanks led the way as U.S. Marines drove into Fallujah despite heavy fire from insurgents armed with rocket-propelled grenades and assault rifles. Marines reported steady progress. MAJ. JOSEPH CLEARFIELD, U.S. MARINES: This is a matter of time. I think that we'll continue to move systematically, and that eventually, the Fallujans are going to realize that we're the strongest force in the city.

CLANCY: Civilian casualties were said to be heavy overnight after a missile strike that reportedly killed as many as 25 women and children. The urban combat with heavy weaponry poses increased risks. But U.S. Marines said they were taking as many precautions as possible.

In Ramadi, also west of Baghdad in the so-called Sunni Triangle, Marines repulsed a frontal assault on their forces, taking heavy casualties. There were heavy casualties among insurgents as well. By day's end, the Marines remained in control. Across Southern Iraq, it was a battle for control of police stations and government offices.

In Kut, Ukrainian forces withdrew after engaging the private militia of the young Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Al-Sadr's Mehdi Army, a collection of thousands of armed supporters from Baghdad and southern Iraq, has tried to take control of other cities as well. U.S. General Mark Kimmitt said al-Sadr and his militia would be dealt with head on.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: We will attack to destroy the Mehdi Army. Those offensive operations will be deliberate, they will be precise, and they will be powerful, and they will succeed.

CLANCY: Polish forces in Karbala also came under attack from Muqtada's forces, but remained in control of that city. In Nasiriyah, Italian troops also under pressure but holding.

(on camera): Many Iraqis say they are tired of the fighting and less certain of their future. Muqtada al-Sadr does not have broad and deep support across Iraq, but the question is whether he or someone like him could tap that impatience and uncertainty to mount a broader challenge to the coalition's authority in Iraq.

Jim Clancy reporting from Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: One man who has traveled throughout postwar Iraq also has touched the inner circle of Muqtada al-Sadr, the Shiite cleric now wanted to murder.

Liam Anderson is an assistant professor at Ohio's Wright State University and the author of a book "The Future of Iraq." He's joining us now live from our London bureau.

Liam, thanks very much for joining us.

You met with some of these Shiite supporters of al-Sadr. What did they say to you?

LIAM ANDERSON, AUTHOR, "THE FUTURE OF IRAQ": Yes, we met with his deputy in Kirkuk, the northern city of Kirkuk.

And they basically said that -- that America's not popular with these guys and that they were joining the resistance. I asked him straight out why they -- if they hated America so much, why haven't they participated so far in the insurgency. And he looked at me and smiled and said, watch this space, basically. And that was about the day before it all sort of fired up.

BLITZER: So you just left Iraq recently and you were given this warning that maybe this is a good time for you to leave?

ANDERSON: Well, yes.

I guess at the time had I known that that this was a forewarning, I probably would have tried to alert the CPA. But CPA seemed to have no grip on this guy at all. I have to say that. It's not their fault, but they had been trying to get him to see him, and they hadn't been able to. So I think this has taken everybody by surprise.

BLITZER: The CPA is the coalition provisional authority led by Ambassador Bremer.

ANDERSON: Yes.

BLITZER: So what is your take now? Is this going to get worse before it gets better? Or is this going to be resolved?

ANDERSON: I think it very much depends on what the U.S. response is here, because I think al-Sadr is holed up in Najaf which is the holiest city for Shia Islam. So if the Americans go in guns blazing, I think that risks exploding the whole situation.

I think Sadr is not dangerous for his military force. His military army, the Mehdi Army, is not a dangerous military force. He could be dangerous as a catalyst for arousing the passions of Shia in Southern Iraq. And Najaf would be a -- I think it would not just explode in Iraq, but it would explode throughout the Middle East. So it's very difficult to know what to do with him right now.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: We have heard administration officials suggest that what we see Muqtada al-Sadr and his followers doing is a tiny minority of the Shiites, that most of the Shiites want democracy, want the pro- West orientation that we've seen since the war. Was that your reading of the Shiite community?

ANDERSON: I think Sadr's support, it depends whether you talk about his military outfit or his followers. I think his followers are probably hundreds of thousands. I think his military force, the Mehdi Army, is probably only 10,000 to 20,000.

But I don't think the majority of Shia want democracy. I think they want stability and I think they want food on the table and electricity and water. I think there's really not a lot of interest in democracy among the Shia. BLITZER: Because the concern is they want a theocracy, an Iran- like theocracy emerging. Is there any evidence you saw of Iranian involvement among the Shia in Iraq right now?

ANDERSON: The Mehdi Army is going to be funded by the Iranians. It has to be. There's another army basically controlled by the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution, an Iraq (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the Batacol (ph), which is also funded by Iran.

And Sadr is just one link in the chain. There is a further link. The controller of Sadr is Ayatollah Haeri, who is actually located in Iran right now and is threatening to come back to Iraq. If he comes back to Iraq, then I think -- he's an Iraqi, an Arab Iraqi. If he comes back, I think we're in for a big explosion. So, yes, the Iranians are going to be involved in this, absolutely.

BLITZER: All right, Liam Anderson with some depressing analysis. Liam Anderson is the author of the book "The Future of Iraq." Thanks for joining us.

ANDERSON: Thank you.

BLITZER: The White House is questioning the man behind the allegations. Are Richard Clarke's claims about 9/11 credible? We'll have an in-depth look. That's coming up.

And the 9/11 hearings. The star witness, Condoleezza Rice, she is set to testify tomorrow morning. We'll have a preview of what she might be asked. I'll speak with one commission member.

Plus, this: a blast from the past. The popular '70s group ABBA celebrates a musical milestone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Tomorrow morning, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will testify before the 9/11 Commission. She will refute testimony by Richard Clarke, her former White House counterterrorism chief, who says Rice and the Bush administration did little about al Qaeda before the 9/11 attacks, even though there were warning signs. That position has him under attack by Bush loyalists who question Clarke's credibility.

More now on that from our national security correspondent, David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Richard Clarke's blunt critique of the Bush administration prompted a blistering counterattack from the administration and its allies. Clarke, said the vice president, was not in the loop. The Senate majority leader questioned Clarke's motives.

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: Is it personal gain? Is it personal -- is it partisan gain? Is it in some way personal problem. Is it animus because of his failure win a promotion with the Bush administration? I just don't know.

ENSOR: And in a newspaper interview, Clarke's colleague, Franklin Miller, who is still at the National Security Council, attacked his book, calling his account of events on September 11 overdramatized -- quote -- "a much better screenplay than reality was."

Was Clarke in the loop? Is he credible? Talking to a half-dozen people who have worked with him or for him at the White House, a complex picture emerges.

GIDEON ROSE, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL STAFF MEMBER: He was a hard-driving, tough-minded, serious guy who guarded his own bureaucratic turf jealously and tried to poach on other's people.

IVO DAALDER, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL STAFF MEMBER: It's true that there are lots of people out there who don't like him, who don't like the way he acts, who thinks he is a bureaucratic bully. But, in the end, in government, what matters is not whether you are liked, but whether you get things done. Dick Clarke knows how to do that.

ENSOR: Clarke knew how to get things done, but as one ex- colleague puts it, he has no second gear. His once red hair another said was always on fire about terrorism.

DAALDER: He cried wolf. Nobody listened. And we got hit. That's the reality that Mr. Frist or anybody else that wants to take on Dick Clarke will have to face.

ENSOR: In retrospect, Clinton administration official Gideon Rose says Mr. Clinton must share the blame with President Bush for failing to heed Richard Clarke.

ROSE: The Clinton administration valued Dick Clarke more than the Bush administration. At the end of the day, they didn't do all that much more than the Bush administration did.

ENSOR: As to whether Richard Clarke has been consistent about the threat of terrorism on American soil, this correspondent can vouch for that as far back as June of 2000.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ENSOR: Are we ready for the next major terrorist incident in the United States?

RICHARD CLARKE, COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: If there is a terrorism incident in the United States, then obviously we weren't ready. Our goal is to prevent them. But we're never going to be in a situation where we can say with high confidence that one won't occur.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ENSOR: Post-9/11 and nearly four years later, Richard Clarke is saying the same thing. David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Preparing to question Condoleezza Rice. Hear from 9/11 Commissioner former Governor James Thompson. We'll get to that.

First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): The only man ever convicted in connection with the September 11 attacks has been set free. One month after a German appeals court overturned the conviction of Mounir el Motassadeq, a judge in Hamburg ordered him released from jail pending a retrial.

Grim memories. A week of mourning has begun in Rwanda, marking the 10th anniversary of a government-led slaughter that left at least half a million people dead. The extremist Hutu government, then in power, ordered followers to kill ethnic Tutsis and Hutus were opposed the massacre.

Arab neighbors talk. Syria's President Assad met with Jordan's King Abdullah in Amman today in hopes of getting a planned Arab summit back on track. The summit start was postponed among disagreement over a proposed democratic reforms in the Middle East and a dispute over which country should host the summit.

Mama milestone. The London production of "Mamma Mia" marked its fifth anniversary. It's based on the music of the '70s Swedish pop group ABBA. But if you think this theatrical success will prompt the group to reunite, think again. At least one former member says that's never to happen. He doesn't even remember all the lyrics.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will give her long-awaited public testimony tomorrow morning before the 9/11 Commission.

Former Illinois Governor James Thompson is a member of the commission. I spoke with him just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Governor, thanks very much for joining us.

How do you keep these 10 members of the commission from becoming too political, too partisan in the Q&A tomorrow? JAMES THOMPSON, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: Well, what looks like partisanship really isn't. If you look at our history, we've been in business for over a year. We have never had a partisan vote on any matter. We have had majority and minority votes, very few, but never a partisan vote.

BLITZER: But let me interrupt. This is an election year, so politics hovering not that far away from all of this.

THOMPSON: Yes, I understand that.

But, look, we're all experienced. We've all been in politics or government for a long, long time. We all know the nation is watching us. We all know we have a historic mission. Nobody on this commission, certainly not the 10 commissioners, wants to be remembered six months from now as the person who asked obviously partisan questions and didn't come to the right conclusions.

BLITZER: But there's been some criticism. All of you are politicians to a certain degree. And with the whole world watching these hearings tomorrow, there's going to be a temptation to showboat.

THOMPSON: Well, I don't think so. And if anybody showboats tomorrow, it will be obvious to the American public, which will be tuned in numbers like they have never been tuned in before. And the press will jump right down our throats. I don't think it's going to happen.

BLITZER: The other major difference over the past year and now is that now Richard Clarke, Condoleezza Rice's former deputy on terrorism, he's come forward with some explosive charges that the president, the national security adviser, they simply weren't doing what they should have been doing.

THOMPSON: Well, we'll see what the evidence shows. We talked to Richard Clarke for almost 15 hours in private and then he testified publicly. We talked to Condi four hours in private and now she'll testify publicly.

But they're not the only two witnesses. We have taken testimony from over 1,000 people. The report of the commission will be book- length. I think it's too early to conclude that Clarke's charges are true or false or half-true, half-false, or whether it's a difference in tone and emphasis or whether it's a difference in substance.

BLITZER: Were there differences between what he told you privately during those 15 hours and what he said publicly?

THOMPSON: Well, I don't think I can comment on what he said privately. But there were certainly differences in my view between what he said publicly and what he said publicly.

BLITZER: What does that mean?

THOMPSON: Well, he said one thing in the book and then he said another thing in that 2002 press briefing he did allegedly at the instigation of the White House. And then you found contradictions in his press interview surrounding the book. So that's what I was inquiring about when I talked to him. It was Clarke vs. Clarke.

BLITZER: What's the most important contribution that Condoleezza Rice can make tomorrow to you, the 10 Commissioners?

THOMPSON: Well, I think she can tell us with I hope certainty what the actual priorities were of the Bush administration when they came into office and who were responsible for safeguarding the nation and where the priority of terrorism fit in the long list of responsibilities the president has, where terrorism is today. Has it changed? Why? How? And importantly to me, what can we do, in her view -- she's an experienced Washington hand -- to lessen the odds of this happening in the future.

That's part of our mission and that's the part of the mission that gets the least focus.

BLITZER: Should she apologize to the families, those who -- the victims' families, as Richard Clarke did at the opening statement that he made?

THOMPSON: Well, I think it's inappropriate for me to tell Condi Rice or anybody else what they should do with regard to the families. I think she certainly will express the sorrow of the nation for what happened to the families, as all of us have as commissioners for the last year.

You know, we have been holding public hearings that very few people except the families came to it. And I can recall myself sitting up there on the dais when it was my turn to question saying something to the families about the tragedy that this was and that it befell all of us. And they were our representatives (INAUDIBLE) their loss was personal and our loss was extended.

I think everybody understands that, but I wouldn't be in a position to tell somebody whether they should apologize or not.

BLITZER: Governor, good luck tomorrow. We'll all be watching.

THOMPSON: Well, it will be interesting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Not only interesting. It will be historic. Please join me for live coverage of Condoleezza Rice's testimony to the 9/11 Commission. That will begin 9:00 a.m. tomorrow morning, 9:00 a.m. Eastern.

The results of our hot "Web Question of the Day," that's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in our "Web Question of the Day." Remember, this is not a scientific poll. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 7, 2004 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. Shutting down the Iraqi resistance. The Bush administration sending a strong message to two men inspiring the attacks.

On the ground. U.S. troops are sending their own message with force. All this while the Pentagon maps out the fighting from around the country.

Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

The battle for Iraq.

Deadly fighting in major cities across the country. A charged standoff with a radical cleric whose militia has seized key government buildings.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: We will attack to destroy the Mehdi army.

BLITZER: U.S. casualties mounting. Contingency plans for more troops. Have we seen it all before?

JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I happen to know something about Vietnam and I know we don't face another Vietnam.

BLITZER: Is the U.S. facing a quagmire? Two congressmen face off. Democrat Dennis Kucinich and Republican Mark Foley.

Historical precedence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, I absolutely think history is repeating itself.

BLITZER: Another time, another occupier. Are there lessons to be learned about Iraq from the not so distant past?

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Wednesday, April 7, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq are engaged in the fiercest fighting since President Bush declared an end to major combat almost one year ago. The enemy insurgents who have plagued the occupation from the start and now, a Shiite militia whose leader is holed up in one of the country's holiest sites. Casualties on all sides are heavy and the outcome uncertain.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): City by city, insurgents and coalition forces slug it out with lethal intensity. Fallujah, the scene of pitched street battles between Sunni insurgents and U.S. marines. Witnesses report marines fighting door to door with militia men trying to hunt them down.

KIMMITT: They now have got brave marines and Iraqi civil defense corps soldiers inside the city. They are taking out the enemy one by one and all the enemies of the Iraqi people.

BLITZER: Elsewhere in the area, a U.S. helicopter and an Abrams battle tank are hit and damaged. Some observers believe this operation in Fallujah should have been launched before U.S. civilian contractors were killed there last week.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: They are finally going in and trying to pacify these parts of Iraq that were left absolutely lawless, that were left in the hands of the opposition figures for 12 months. This was an enormous mistake.

BLITZER: Just northwest of Fallujah in Ramadi, U.S. generals say American forces have firm control of the city. 24 hours after 12 marines are killed in a ferocious attack. One of the deadliest days since the war began. More than 20 marines were wounded. Dozens of Iraqi insurgents killed. The attackers, believed by the Pentagon to be remnants of Saddam Hussein's Baath party.

Baghdad, the U.S. army bulks up its forces in the teaming slum of Sadr city. Stronghold of the anti-U.S. cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. The U.S. estimates his militia there at 3,000 strong. Which has already killed several U.S. troops this week. And the coalition expects resistance as it seeks to apprehend Sadr on murder charges.

Al-Sadr himself still holed up further south in the holy city of Najaf. His army has control of that city but a U.S. general says coalition forces have a strong presence on the outskirts. Still in the south, in Karbala, al-Sadr's militias fight with Polish coalition troops. To the east in Kut, al-Sadr's forces also engaging Ukrainian soldiers where Ukrainians take casualties and withdraw from the city.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff General Richard Myers held a news conference just over an hour ago. They said the coalition remains in control in Iraq but some troops may have their deployment extended because of the violence. Our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre is joining us now live with more details -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, despite the rising violence and the mounting U.S. casualty count, the Pentagon insists that Iraq is not spinning out of control. Today Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld did call the situation a test of wills but he rejected the idea this represented a turning point.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We're here pointing out what is taking place in the country. Some things are going well and some things obviously are not going well. You have -- you are going to have good days and bad days as we said from the outset. This is a moment in Iraq's path toward a Democratic and a free system.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says the big problem is essentially two bad guys, they are pointing out that Musab Zarqawi, a bin Laden associate is inciting some of the Sunni violence and Muqtada al-Sadr the Shiite cleric is inciting some of the Shiite violence. They say their followers represent a very small percentage of the population.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: It was not unanticipated or unexpected that we would see some resistance of that. But the fact remains that he and Zarqawi, former regime elements that have this hope that they can stop progress for 25 million Iraqis is just not going to happen. We're not going to let it happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Well, the Pentagon has about 20,000 extra troops in Iraq at the moment because they are rotating troops. Today the Pentagon said some of the troops may have to stay past their one-year tour of duty in order to see this situation through. Sources tell us that that may include some units of the 1st armored division which may be redeployed south to help handle the violence -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre with the latest at the Pentagon. Jamie, thanks very much.

Whether it's urban warfare or battles by the numbers, are coalition forces up to countering relentless insurgent attacks. Joining us now Retired U.S. army Lieutenant General Dan Christman. He's here to consider some of these military matters. General, does the U.S. have enough troops on the ground right now in Iraq?

LT. GEN. DAN CHRISTMAN, U.S. ARMY (RET.): My suspicion, Wolf, is that we'll probably need some more. I trust General Abizaid as we heard the defense secretary say, General Abizaid is going to come in with a recommendation. We also see the writing on the wall. I think we'll extend some deployments here. Keep the applause up there in theater to ensure that we at least have enough people to go in on some of the specific points of urgency and secure them.

BLITZER: Everyone from the top down from the president of the United States on down says between now and June 30 when sovereignty is supposed to be returned to the Iraqis it will get worse as the insurgents, the Shiites, the Sunnis, all of them try to make their point. If that's the case shouldn't they beef up the presence at least until then?

CHRISTMAN: Again, it's my suspicion the answer is yes and I suspect we probably will through the mechanism that I have outlined. But frankly, Wolf, my more immediate concern is not June 30. My concern right now is the Shia festival of Ashura. We've got hundreds of thousands of pilgrims there. I think very few people realize what Ashura represents. That was the battle in the seventh century A.D. where the prophet's grandson was killed. He's a martyr, he was fighting them, a ferocious occupying power. This has enormous symbolism. The concern now is whether it will spin out of control. Notwithstanding the numbers that are involved here. This is a very delicate moment. So I'm really focused on these next seven to ten days in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) area.

BLITZER: The religious fervor could get very intense as we heard from Defense Secretary Rumsfeld and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff only a little while ago. Given that, given the sensitivity, given the fact that Muqtada al-Sadr may be holed up in a mosque. What can the U.S. military do?

CHRISTMAN: I think there are two battles that are being fought. The more dangerous in my judgment is the Shia battle in Najaf, in Karbala to the areas south of Baghdad. I think in the Fallujah case we already see the solution in hand. That's very strong marine presence securing that city and taking down the remnants of the Baathist resistance. That will evolve, I think, and evolve successfully. In the Shia area this is so terribly delicate. I think we've already laid a marker down. We will take down the Mehdi army. That's not going to be easy. The symbolism there is also important.

BLITZER: That's the army of Muqtada al-Sadr which is a ragtag army but potentially could grow.

CHRISTMAN: It's not the numbers that worry me. Again it's the symbolism and the perceptions that grow by going after -- during this period, I come back to the Shia holiday again, during this period going after that unit and also after Sadr himself.

BLITZER: 24 hours ago we were reporting extensively on the battle in Ramadi. Were the marines who were sent in there only a few weeks ago caught by surprise?

CHRISTMAN: I think there's also an issue when a unit like the marines replaces a long-standing element like the 92nd Airborne Division. My indications, my sources tell me that was a smooth transition. I think what we found here was some very, very intelligent applications by the Baathist remnants recognizing the newness of the force to go after them in power. That was sadly a bloody engagement.

BLITZER: General Christman, the former superintendent of West Point. Thanks very much for joining us.

Here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question of the day is this, should the United States stick to that June 30 deadline for transfer of power in Iraq? You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast.

A conflict that resembles the past comparisons of a previous Iraqi occupation to the current one. Is history repeating itself?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R) ARIZONA: Is this a difficult political problem? Yes. Is it the time to panic, to cut and run? Absolutely not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Strong opinions on the U.S. Senate floor as tin tense fighting in Iraq fuels heated debate.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The time has come for a new approach in Iraq.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: More diverse political reaction. That's coming from Capitol Hill.

Plus, representatives Mark Foley and Dennis Kucinich, they will square off live on all of these issues. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: President Bush was briefed on the situation in Iraq at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. The president participated in a teleconference with his national security adviser as he also discussed Iraq in a phone conference with the British prime minister Tony Blair. He comes to Washington next week. The president plans to remain at his Crawford ranch through Easter.

The violence in Iraq is fueling sharp debate on Capitol Hill. Our congressional correspondent Joe Johns is standing by with details -- Joe.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, there are questions whether more troops are needed. Questions whether the deadline for transition ought to be extended and most emotional of all, perhaps, is whether Iraq is becoming another Vietnam.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS (voice-over): The escalating violence in Iraq is causing a heated debate in the U.S. Senate over comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam. Republican Senator John McCain, a Vietnam veteran, said the comparisons are flat wrong.

MCCAIN: I happen to know something about Vietnam and I know we don't face another Vietnam.

JOHNS: Senator Edward Kennedy, John Kerry's closest ally in Congress, first made the comparison on Monday. He was followed today by the Senate's leading critic of the Iraq war, Robert Byrd. Byrd compared the current violence to Tennyson's "Charge of the Light Brigade."

SEN. ROBERT BYRD, (D) WEST VIRGINIA: There's not a reason why, there's but to do and die. Into the valley of death rode the 600.

JOHNS: Then he said the V word.

BYRD: Surely, I am not the only one who hears echoes of Vietnam in this development.

JOHNS: Republicans are furious, Senator Saxby Chambliss of Georgia, a hardliner on defense, said American lives could be endanger by statements made by politicians.

SEN. SAXY CHAMBLISS, (R) GEORGIA: Statements that tend to insight the opposition and to put our men and women in greater harm's way.

JOHNS: The Senate's top Democrat, while voicing support for the troops, accused Republicans of trying to stifle debate.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE, (D-SD) MINORITY LEADER: I think in an open democracy, people ought to have a right to express themselves without fear of character assassination.

QUESTION: Even in a time of war?

DASCHLE: Absolutely, especially in a time of war.

JOHNS: Kerry, another Vietnam veteran, steered clear of the argument.

SEN. JOHN KERRY, (D-MA) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No matter what disagreements over how to approach the policy in Iraq, and we have some, we are all united as a nation in supporting our troops and ultimately in our goal of a stable Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JOHNS: Daschle and some Democrats suggest more troops may in fact be needed in Iraq, the Senate majority leader Bill Frist has said the Pentagon will get whatever it needs. Back to you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks very much. Joe Johns, reporting from Capitol Hill.

Despite all the headlines about the war in Iraq, the Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry talked about the economy today in what his aides billed as a major speech at Washington's Georgetown University, Kerry blasted President Bush's economic policies and laid out his own budget plans.

The Massachusetts Senator promised to cut the federal deficit in half over four years by eliminating what he called corporate welfare. And rolling back tax cuts for Americans earning more than $200,000 a year. He also promised more funding for healthcare and education.

The Bush campaign says kerry's plans to expand government programs contradict his deficit reduction pledge.

U.S. troops involved in fierce fighting against Iraqi insurgents. Are the battle lines expanding out of U.S. control?

Representative Dennis Kucinich and Mark Foley, they are coming up to debate this issue.

Testifying under pressure: what questions can Condoleezza Rice expect? She testifies tomorrow. We'll speak to a 9/11 commission member.

Mississippi train derailment: investigators on the scene right now working to try to determine why this train left the tracks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Iraq's violent transition from a brutal dictatorship into occupation and to hope for democracy isn't the first time a western power has tried to remake Iraq. CNN's Brian Todd looks at the historic parallels between the U.S. led coalition and an earlier occupation and how some problems are repeating themselves.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Power, moving south to north toward Baghdad. The city falls. The invading nation begins a long occupation. The population is at first grateful, but problems soon begin. The time: World War I and it's aftermath. The occupier, the mighty British empire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were so many parallels...

TODD: Try this one, March 1917, upon capturing Baghdad from the Ottoman Turks, the British commander General Stanley Modd, tells the local population our armies do not come into your cities and lands as conquerers or enemies but as liberators. March 2003, vice president Dick Cheney.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My belief is we will in fact be greeted as liberators.

JANEL WALLACH, AUTHOR DESERT QUEEN: I absolutely think history is preeting itself. I think it's too bad that before the United States went in we didn't take a really good look at what happened during and after World War I.

TODD (voice-over): Driven by ambitious policymakers including a young Winston Churchill, the British rationale was invasion was different, at least on the surface. Britains sought to protect its trade interests in nearby India, threatened by the Ottoman Turks and Germans, but also targeted valuable oil deposits in Iraq.

(voice-over): Then as now, the western force installs its own administrators. Makes promise of Iraqi self-rule and stability, but cannot control hostile Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, who, along with local warring tribes constantly fight each other until the British give them reason to unite.

WALLACH: All of it is anger against a foreign western nonMuslim occupier. I think that's key.

TODD: Another parallel, spring, 1920. Fed up with heavy handed British rule, Iraqis of all factions revolt. The fighting lasts for months. The rebellion is eventually suppressed, partly with Britain's use of overwhelming air power and at great cost. Thousands of Iraqis, at least 500 British killed. Some still resting where Baghdad's north gate once stood.

AMATZIA BARAM, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: The British wanted to stay in Iraq for as long as they could. And that was a good reason to want them out.

TODD: As with so many of their imperial conquests, Britain's experience in the cradle of civilization drags on. They eventually install a foreign Arab king, cede independence to Iraq in 1932 and pack up. Nearly 90 years after this gamble, geopolitics have changed considerably. But on the streets of Iraq, ancient loyalties to religious sect, tribe, neighborhood, have changing strikingly little. Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Joining us now to talk about the overall situation in Iraq, two members of the United States Congress, Democratic presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich, he's joining us from Portland, Oregon. And Republican Congressman Mark Foley. He's is joining us from Bonyton Beach in Florida.

First of all, Congressman Kucinich, make the case why you believe the U.S. should simply pull out of Iraq right now.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH, (D) OHIO: Well, we need to go to the U.N. with a whole new plan that brings in U.N. peacekeepers and brings our troops home. We cannot continue to be an occupying army there withoug exacting huge tolls, without causing greater life to the U.S., Iraqis and inevitably, precipitating a draft by next year.

So, we have to take a new plan. That involves asking the U.N. to handle the oil assets of Iraq on behalf of the Iraqi people, until they are self-governing, same with the contracts, renouncing privatization with Iraq. Asking the U.N. to help develop a new constitution and old elections in Iraq.

That's part after plan, Wolf, that will enable us to bring in U.N. peacekeepers and bring our troops home. And we should get to work on that plan immediately and work to bring our troops home.

BLITZER: Congressman Foley, what is wrong with Congressman Kucinich's thinking?

REP. MARK FOLEY, (R) FLORIDA: Well, if we take his thoughts and run them forward, and if we do in fact leave with our tail between our legs whether we get the U.N. in or not, we will have a cataclysmic result follow. No American will be safe anywhere in the globe.

This fight must be taken to the streets of Iraq. We must fight the insurgents. We will win this battle. And we will liberate the good people of Iraq. But to suggest we just hand over the keys and say, U.N. why don't you take it, is not only foolish, it's dangerous.

The al Qaeda, the terrorists, the international cells, that seek to harm American citizens and other allies of ours will feel they have been victorious and they will come at us in every corner of the earth.

BLITZER: Go ahead, Congressman Kucinich.

KUCINICH: The fact of the matter is our presence in Iraq has made America less safe not more safe. Al Qaeda gained a foot hold in Iraq it did not have once we began attacking Iraq. It was wrong to go in. I think the American people know by now, that our war in Iraq is waged under false pretenses. Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction. It was wrong to go in. It's wrong to stay.

BLITZER: But Congressman Kucinich, what about the point that Congressman Foley makes that this will advertise U.S. weakness and make the United States vulnerable, and its allies in the region vulnerable/

KUCINICH: No, this is the same kind of argument that was used to keep us in Vietnam and resulted in 50,000 American deaths and more. We have to realize that this idea of not cutting and running, staying the course, is an errogance, a hubris to it, which will commit us to a war we did not have to fight in the first place, cause casualties we do not have to incur and cause us to put us on a path to a draft.

We're about to get deeper into this, Wolf. I respect Congressman Foley. He is certainly articulate and dedicated to his point of view. But I have to tell you, we're getting into this deeper and should stop and say wait a minute, why should we continue to have this kind of loss of life and get deeper into it when in the end we're going to have to need the U.N. to resolve this.

BLITZER: Congressman Foley, Senator Kennedy says this is George Bush's Vietnam.

FOLEY: Well, they are using the V word very frequently the last couple days. And obviously President Kennedy was the one that got us into Vietnam and Senator Kennedy is reflecting back on history which I don't think is a fair comparison. And I will take the word of Senator John McCain who is a prisoner of war, who knows the difference between the current conflict or that conflict in Vietnam. They are dramatically different. The world is a different place. And I would suggest to you, Neville Chamberlain didn't think Hitler was much of a problem at the time and some of our Democratic counterparts are assuming somehow that Saddam Hussein wasn't really a bad guy. He killed a million of his own people. The man needed to be removed. The skirmishes that are occurring today will be brought to an end.

BLITZER: All right.

FOLEY: We will win this conflict in Iraq and the people will be free.

BLITZER: Some Republicans, Congressman Kucinich, suggesting the talk he of Vietnam is giving aid and comfort to the enemy in Iraq right now further endangering the live of U.S. military personnel. What do you say to that criticism?

KUCINICH: I say CNN just did a report making a comparison what happened in Iraq in the 1920s, where the British were driven out 12 years later and where we are right now, where people are saying history is repeating itself. I think it's a legitimate comparison to see that we're in a war right now that could last ten years, 12 years or more, apropos of your earlier report. We should be concerned about that.

Barbara Tuchman, in her work called "The March of Folly," talked about how nations throughout history have pursued a path where worse was the better reason. We need to look at this and look at it clearly, the Democrats ought to be taking a position which challenges our presence in Iraq and challenges the administration for taking us there.

Wolf, frankly, that's why I'm remaining in this race so the Democrats can have a voice that raises these questions and so they have to take a path toward peace and getting out of Iraq, bringing our troops home.

BLITZER: Conressman Foley, I'm going to give you the last word.

FOLEY: If Dennis thinks the U.N. is going to walk in after we leave, he's sadly mistaken. We have to stay there. We would encourage them to come along side of us and help us fight this battle. But for someone to assume, who is running for president, that we just say we're out of here, you do it, good luck, it's not

KUCINICH: I didn't say that, Mark. First the U.N. in, then we come out.

BLITZER: Congressman Foley go ahead.

FOLEY: No, Wolf, I just think we have a serious mission ahead of us. We know the difficulties we face. The United States will stand tall. The men and women who are on the ground who are fighing have the support of the Congress. We're not going to let them down. This president is committed to staying on course and I salute him for that determination. BLITZER: A good debate. Two United States Congressmen, Dennis Kucinich thanks very much for joining us. Mark Foley, as usual, thanks to you as well.

U.S. troops battling Iraq's the so-called Mehdi Army. The militia loyal to the Shiite cleric Muqtada al Sadr. I'll talk with an author who spent time inside al-Sadr's inner circle.

The White House questions his credibility, but who is the real Richard Clarke? There is a complex picture that's being painted by some of his former colleagues.

Legal battle over radio talk show host Rush Limbaugh's medical records. Will a judge allow them to be used against him?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to CNN.

Much of the fresh violence in Iraq centers around a young Shiite cleric with militant rhetoric and equally militant followers. Coming up, we speak to a man who was warned by Muqtada al-Sadr's inner circle to get out of the Iraq because it's getting too nasty. We'll get to that interview.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

Rush Limbaugh's medical records were the focus of an appeals court hearing in Florida today. An attorney said the radio host's privacy rights were violated when investigators seized those records. A criminal investigation into Limbaugh's use of painkillers is stalled until the court rules on the records.

Melissa Ann Rowland pleaded guilty to two counts of child endangerment in Utah today. Rowland is the woman accused of killing one of her twins by not getting a C-section. Under today's plea bargain, a murder charge against Rowland was dropped.

Federal investigators are on the scene of a deadly train derailment in Mississippi. One person was killed when Amtrak's the City of New Orleans went off the tracks about 40 miles northwest of Jackson; 58 people were hurt. The cause of the accident isn't known.

We return now to Iraq, where the most ferocious fighting in months rages on. Coalition troops are squaring off with insurgents in cities throughout Iraq.

CNN's Jim Clancy has an update from the ground.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Abrams tanks led the way as U.S. Marines drove into Fallujah despite heavy fire from insurgents armed with rocket-propelled grenades and assault rifles. Marines reported steady progress. MAJ. JOSEPH CLEARFIELD, U.S. MARINES: This is a matter of time. I think that we'll continue to move systematically, and that eventually, the Fallujans are going to realize that we're the strongest force in the city.

CLANCY: Civilian casualties were said to be heavy overnight after a missile strike that reportedly killed as many as 25 women and children. The urban combat with heavy weaponry poses increased risks. But U.S. Marines said they were taking as many precautions as possible.

In Ramadi, also west of Baghdad in the so-called Sunni Triangle, Marines repulsed a frontal assault on their forces, taking heavy casualties. There were heavy casualties among insurgents as well. By day's end, the Marines remained in control. Across Southern Iraq, it was a battle for control of police stations and government offices.

In Kut, Ukrainian forces withdrew after engaging the private militia of the young Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Al-Sadr's Mehdi Army, a collection of thousands of armed supporters from Baghdad and southern Iraq, has tried to take control of other cities as well. U.S. General Mark Kimmitt said al-Sadr and his militia would be dealt with head on.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: We will attack to destroy the Mehdi Army. Those offensive operations will be deliberate, they will be precise, and they will be powerful, and they will succeed.

CLANCY: Polish forces in Karbala also came under attack from Muqtada's forces, but remained in control of that city. In Nasiriyah, Italian troops also under pressure but holding.

(on camera): Many Iraqis say they are tired of the fighting and less certain of their future. Muqtada al-Sadr does not have broad and deep support across Iraq, but the question is whether he or someone like him could tap that impatience and uncertainty to mount a broader challenge to the coalition's authority in Iraq.

Jim Clancy reporting from Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: One man who has traveled throughout postwar Iraq also has touched the inner circle of Muqtada al-Sadr, the Shiite cleric now wanted to murder.

Liam Anderson is an assistant professor at Ohio's Wright State University and the author of a book "The Future of Iraq." He's joining us now live from our London bureau.

Liam, thanks very much for joining us.

You met with some of these Shiite supporters of al-Sadr. What did they say to you?

LIAM ANDERSON, AUTHOR, "THE FUTURE OF IRAQ": Yes, we met with his deputy in Kirkuk, the northern city of Kirkuk.

And they basically said that -- that America's not popular with these guys and that they were joining the resistance. I asked him straight out why they -- if they hated America so much, why haven't they participated so far in the insurgency. And he looked at me and smiled and said, watch this space, basically. And that was about the day before it all sort of fired up.

BLITZER: So you just left Iraq recently and you were given this warning that maybe this is a good time for you to leave?

ANDERSON: Well, yes.

I guess at the time had I known that that this was a forewarning, I probably would have tried to alert the CPA. But CPA seemed to have no grip on this guy at all. I have to say that. It's not their fault, but they had been trying to get him to see him, and they hadn't been able to. So I think this has taken everybody by surprise.

BLITZER: The CPA is the coalition provisional authority led by Ambassador Bremer.

ANDERSON: Yes.

BLITZER: So what is your take now? Is this going to get worse before it gets better? Or is this going to be resolved?

ANDERSON: I think it very much depends on what the U.S. response is here, because I think al-Sadr is holed up in Najaf which is the holiest city for Shia Islam. So if the Americans go in guns blazing, I think that risks exploding the whole situation.

I think Sadr is not dangerous for his military force. His military army, the Mehdi Army, is not a dangerous military force. He could be dangerous as a catalyst for arousing the passions of Shia in Southern Iraq. And Najaf would be a -- I think it would not just explode in Iraq, but it would explode throughout the Middle East. So it's very difficult to know what to do with him right now.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: We have heard administration officials suggest that what we see Muqtada al-Sadr and his followers doing is a tiny minority of the Shiites, that most of the Shiites want democracy, want the pro- West orientation that we've seen since the war. Was that your reading of the Shiite community?

ANDERSON: I think Sadr's support, it depends whether you talk about his military outfit or his followers. I think his followers are probably hundreds of thousands. I think his military force, the Mehdi Army, is probably only 10,000 to 20,000.

But I don't think the majority of Shia want democracy. I think they want stability and I think they want food on the table and electricity and water. I think there's really not a lot of interest in democracy among the Shia. BLITZER: Because the concern is they want a theocracy, an Iran- like theocracy emerging. Is there any evidence you saw of Iranian involvement among the Shia in Iraq right now?

ANDERSON: The Mehdi Army is going to be funded by the Iranians. It has to be. There's another army basically controlled by the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution, an Iraq (UNINTELLIGIBLE) the Batacol (ph), which is also funded by Iran.

And Sadr is just one link in the chain. There is a further link. The controller of Sadr is Ayatollah Haeri, who is actually located in Iran right now and is threatening to come back to Iraq. If he comes back to Iraq, then I think -- he's an Iraqi, an Arab Iraqi. If he comes back, I think we're in for a big explosion. So, yes, the Iranians are going to be involved in this, absolutely.

BLITZER: All right, Liam Anderson with some depressing analysis. Liam Anderson is the author of the book "The Future of Iraq." Thanks for joining us.

ANDERSON: Thank you.

BLITZER: The White House is questioning the man behind the allegations. Are Richard Clarke's claims about 9/11 credible? We'll have an in-depth look. That's coming up.

And the 9/11 hearings. The star witness, Condoleezza Rice, she is set to testify tomorrow morning. We'll have a preview of what she might be asked. I'll speak with one commission member.

Plus, this: a blast from the past. The popular '70s group ABBA celebrates a musical milestone.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Tomorrow morning, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will testify before the 9/11 Commission. She will refute testimony by Richard Clarke, her former White House counterterrorism chief, who says Rice and the Bush administration did little about al Qaeda before the 9/11 attacks, even though there were warning signs. That position has him under attack by Bush loyalists who question Clarke's credibility.

More now on that from our national security correspondent, David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Richard Clarke's blunt critique of the Bush administration prompted a blistering counterattack from the administration and its allies. Clarke, said the vice president, was not in the loop. The Senate majority leader questioned Clarke's motives.

SEN. BILL FRIST (R-TN), MAJORITY LEADER: Is it personal gain? Is it personal -- is it partisan gain? Is it in some way personal problem. Is it animus because of his failure win a promotion with the Bush administration? I just don't know.

ENSOR: And in a newspaper interview, Clarke's colleague, Franklin Miller, who is still at the National Security Council, attacked his book, calling his account of events on September 11 overdramatized -- quote -- "a much better screenplay than reality was."

Was Clarke in the loop? Is he credible? Talking to a half-dozen people who have worked with him or for him at the White House, a complex picture emerges.

GIDEON ROSE, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL STAFF MEMBER: He was a hard-driving, tough-minded, serious guy who guarded his own bureaucratic turf jealously and tried to poach on other's people.

IVO DAALDER, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL STAFF MEMBER: It's true that there are lots of people out there who don't like him, who don't like the way he acts, who thinks he is a bureaucratic bully. But, in the end, in government, what matters is not whether you are liked, but whether you get things done. Dick Clarke knows how to do that.

ENSOR: Clarke knew how to get things done, but as one ex- colleague puts it, he has no second gear. His once red hair another said was always on fire about terrorism.

DAALDER: He cried wolf. Nobody listened. And we got hit. That's the reality that Mr. Frist or anybody else that wants to take on Dick Clarke will have to face.

ENSOR: In retrospect, Clinton administration official Gideon Rose says Mr. Clinton must share the blame with President Bush for failing to heed Richard Clarke.

ROSE: The Clinton administration valued Dick Clarke more than the Bush administration. At the end of the day, they didn't do all that much more than the Bush administration did.

ENSOR: As to whether Richard Clarke has been consistent about the threat of terrorism on American soil, this correspondent can vouch for that as far back as June of 2000.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ENSOR: Are we ready for the next major terrorist incident in the United States?

RICHARD CLARKE, COUNTERTERRORISM ADVISER: If there is a terrorism incident in the United States, then obviously we weren't ready. Our goal is to prevent them. But we're never going to be in a situation where we can say with high confidence that one won't occur.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ENSOR: Post-9/11 and nearly four years later, Richard Clarke is saying the same thing. David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Preparing to question Condoleezza Rice. Hear from 9/11 Commissioner former Governor James Thompson. We'll get to that.

First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): The only man ever convicted in connection with the September 11 attacks has been set free. One month after a German appeals court overturned the conviction of Mounir el Motassadeq, a judge in Hamburg ordered him released from jail pending a retrial.

Grim memories. A week of mourning has begun in Rwanda, marking the 10th anniversary of a government-led slaughter that left at least half a million people dead. The extremist Hutu government, then in power, ordered followers to kill ethnic Tutsis and Hutus were opposed the massacre.

Arab neighbors talk. Syria's President Assad met with Jordan's King Abdullah in Amman today in hopes of getting a planned Arab summit back on track. The summit start was postponed among disagreement over a proposed democratic reforms in the Middle East and a dispute over which country should host the summit.

Mama milestone. The London production of "Mamma Mia" marked its fifth anniversary. It's based on the music of the '70s Swedish pop group ABBA. But if you think this theatrical success will prompt the group to reunite, think again. At least one former member says that's never to happen. He doesn't even remember all the lyrics.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice will give her long-awaited public testimony tomorrow morning before the 9/11 Commission.

Former Illinois Governor James Thompson is a member of the commission. I spoke with him just a short time ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Governor, thanks very much for joining us.

How do you keep these 10 members of the commission from becoming too political, too partisan in the Q&A tomorrow? JAMES THOMPSON, 9/11 COMMISSIONER: Well, what looks like partisanship really isn't. If you look at our history, we've been in business for over a year. We have never had a partisan vote on any matter. We have had majority and minority votes, very few, but never a partisan vote.

BLITZER: But let me interrupt. This is an election year, so politics hovering not that far away from all of this.

THOMPSON: Yes, I understand that.

But, look, we're all experienced. We've all been in politics or government for a long, long time. We all know the nation is watching us. We all know we have a historic mission. Nobody on this commission, certainly not the 10 commissioners, wants to be remembered six months from now as the person who asked obviously partisan questions and didn't come to the right conclusions.

BLITZER: But there's been some criticism. All of you are politicians to a certain degree. And with the whole world watching these hearings tomorrow, there's going to be a temptation to showboat.

THOMPSON: Well, I don't think so. And if anybody showboats tomorrow, it will be obvious to the American public, which will be tuned in numbers like they have never been tuned in before. And the press will jump right down our throats. I don't think it's going to happen.

BLITZER: The other major difference over the past year and now is that now Richard Clarke, Condoleezza Rice's former deputy on terrorism, he's come forward with some explosive charges that the president, the national security adviser, they simply weren't doing what they should have been doing.

THOMPSON: Well, we'll see what the evidence shows. We talked to Richard Clarke for almost 15 hours in private and then he testified publicly. We talked to Condi four hours in private and now she'll testify publicly.

But they're not the only two witnesses. We have taken testimony from over 1,000 people. The report of the commission will be book- length. I think it's too early to conclude that Clarke's charges are true or false or half-true, half-false, or whether it's a difference in tone and emphasis or whether it's a difference in substance.

BLITZER: Were there differences between what he told you privately during those 15 hours and what he said publicly?

THOMPSON: Well, I don't think I can comment on what he said privately. But there were certainly differences in my view between what he said publicly and what he said publicly.

BLITZER: What does that mean?

THOMPSON: Well, he said one thing in the book and then he said another thing in that 2002 press briefing he did allegedly at the instigation of the White House. And then you found contradictions in his press interview surrounding the book. So that's what I was inquiring about when I talked to him. It was Clarke vs. Clarke.

BLITZER: What's the most important contribution that Condoleezza Rice can make tomorrow to you, the 10 Commissioners?

THOMPSON: Well, I think she can tell us with I hope certainty what the actual priorities were of the Bush administration when they came into office and who were responsible for safeguarding the nation and where the priority of terrorism fit in the long list of responsibilities the president has, where terrorism is today. Has it changed? Why? How? And importantly to me, what can we do, in her view -- she's an experienced Washington hand -- to lessen the odds of this happening in the future.

That's part of our mission and that's the part of the mission that gets the least focus.

BLITZER: Should she apologize to the families, those who -- the victims' families, as Richard Clarke did at the opening statement that he made?

THOMPSON: Well, I think it's inappropriate for me to tell Condi Rice or anybody else what they should do with regard to the families. I think she certainly will express the sorrow of the nation for what happened to the families, as all of us have as commissioners for the last year.

You know, we have been holding public hearings that very few people except the families came to it. And I can recall myself sitting up there on the dais when it was my turn to question saying something to the families about the tragedy that this was and that it befell all of us. And they were our representatives (INAUDIBLE) their loss was personal and our loss was extended.

I think everybody understands that, but I wouldn't be in a position to tell somebody whether they should apologize or not.

BLITZER: Governor, good luck tomorrow. We'll all be watching.

THOMPSON: Well, it will be interesting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Not only interesting. It will be historic. Please join me for live coverage of Condoleezza Rice's testimony to the 9/11 Commission. That will begin 9:00 a.m. tomorrow morning, 9:00 a.m. Eastern.

The results of our hot "Web Question of the Day," that's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in our "Web Question of the Day." Remember, this is not a scientific poll. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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