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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Lawmakers View New Photos from Abu Ghraib Prison. Lynndie England Speaks Out. Why was Nicholas Berg in U.S. Custody in Iraq?

Aired May 12, 2004 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. For their eyes only. Inside two secure rooms at the United States Capitol. Lawmakers are getting a glimpse of new and very disturbing pictures of what was happening at the Abu Ghraib prison. Pictures that could prove very damaging to the United States military.

Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

Beheaded.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nicholas Berg was a innocent civilian who was in Iraq to help build a free Iraq.

BLITZER: So why was he detained before he fell into the hands of his killers?

More abuse images. So shocking that the Senate gets an extraordinary private viewing. I'll speak with two senators who have seen them.

Speaking out, you have seen her face in the photo. Now hear her side of the story.

From the news hour to this hour. I'll talk Iraq and more with newsman and novelist Jim Lehrer.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Wednesday, May 12, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Conflicting stories from the U.S. government and relatives of an American man whose murder has shocked the world. Nick Berg's family says he told them he was held by U.S. forces not Iraqi police in the days before he was kidnapped and ultimately beheaded.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): One day after the release of this gruesome video showing Nick Berg's murder President Bush expressed his condolences to his family and friends.

BUSH: Nicholas Berg was a innocent civilian who was in Iraq to help build a free Iraq. There is no justification for the brutal execution of Nicholas Berg, no justification whatsoever.

BLITZER: With the shock of the brutal killing still fresh, new questions arose today about the weeks leading up to Berg's death. His family says the 26-year-old had already worked in post-war Iraq once. Maintaining communication towers. He returned in mid-March but this time was unable to find a job. According to U.S. officials, he was arrested by Iraqi police March 24 in Mosul suspected of suspicious activities and was never in U.S. custody. But U.S. authorities were involved.

DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: The FBI visited with Mr. Berg on three occasions when he was in Iraqi police detention and determined that he was not involved with any criminal or terrorist activities.

BLITZER: FBI agents also met with Berg's family in Pennsylvania on March 31. On April 5, the family filed a lawsuit against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the Defense Department saying they were holding Berg illegally. But the next day, Berg was released and soon after told his family he had been held by U.S. forces and was now trying to get home. It was the last time they heard from him. His father blames the U.S. government for his son's death insisting Berg was in American custody. According to the Associated Press, Berg's parents say he planned to return to the U.S. March 30 and could have made the trip if he'd received due process.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's really what cost my son his life was the fact the United States government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights and release him when they were good and ready.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Berg's body is now at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, efforts were being made to get a waiver allowing his family on the base to claim the remains. A public memorial service is scheduled Friday in Berg's hometown. That would be Westchester, Pennsylvania. Berg's murder has prompted revulsion and condemnation around the world and with few exceptions in Iraq, as well. CNN's Ben Wedeman has reaction from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The barrage of jarring images has bombarded Iraq of late. Fighting and destruction in Najaf and Fallujah, abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers and now the brutal videotaped beheading of an American civilian.

The head of Iraq's governing council denounced Nicholas Berg's killing.

ABDEL ZAHRA OSMAN MOHAMMAD, PRESIDENT, IRAQI GOVERNING COUNCIL (through translator): We condemn -- the Iraqi people condemns this crime, Islam condemns this crime.

WEDEMAN: We heard the same thing outside. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Slaughtering a human being is a very horrifying thing, as an Iraqi it was hard to watch such a brutal act.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Somehow they are punishing the Americans for what they did to the prisoners but two wrongs don't make a right.

WEDEMAN: Reaction to Berg's killing is tinged by intense anger over prisoner abuse. A far more emotional issue for Iraqis than the brutal murder of an American civilian.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): After they abused and dishonored the prisoners they deserved this.

WEDEMAN: On the street, skepticism about whether the man attributed with the murder even exists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't think there's anyone named Abu Musab al Zarqawi. It's a name the Americans invented upon which to hang all the mistakes of the resistance.

WEDEMAN: Some blame it all on the coalition's failure to control Iraq's poorest border.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know that Iraq now is open state, and anyone can enter to Iraq without any barriers.

WEDEMAN: Recent events have left many Iraqis depressed and despairing. Summing it all up an old Iraqi friend told me in his words that people feel lost, this country has no future, we see only darkness ahead. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question of the day is this, is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any remaining Iraqi prisoner abuse pictures? You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast.

Turning now to the fight for Iraq. U.S. forces say they killed at least 22 members of the Mehdi army loyal to the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. It happened in an overnight battle in Karbala. Al-Sadr urged his fighters to resist and he likened the conflict to the Vietnam war. Meanwhile, Sadr says he wants his Mehdi army to help patrol the volatile cities of Karbala and Najaf. He also offered to disband his militia but he says that won't happen until Iraq has an elected government and religious authorities call for the militia's dissolution.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld defended U.S. prisoner interrogation policies today. Rumsfeld told a Senate committee techniques like sleep deprivation and dietary changes are legal under the Geneva conventions. Recent reports that imprisoned Iraqis have been abused have put the defense secretary very much on the defensive. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld showing senators a softer side during testimony today.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I understand concern. By golly I've got it. But I look at Afghanistan, 25 million people liberated. Women voting, able to go to a doctor. And I look at Iraq and all I can say is I hope it comes out well. And I believe it will.

BLITZER: The same emotion, choking back tears came through Tuesday at a town hall style meeting at the Pentagon.

RUMSFELD: The look on the faces of the people who have viewed the photographs and the videos, from what took place there, they were stunned, absolutely stunned.

BLITZER: Contrast that contrition with the bombast and self confidence of the old Rumsfeld. When long-standing traditional allies, for example, refused to go along with the war against Saddam Hussein.

RUMSFELD: Now, you are thinking of Europe as Germany and France. I don't. I think that's old Europe.

BLITZER: Or when he was seen as a near rock star early in the Bush administration.

BUSH: I always love being introduced by a matinee television idol. Who would have thought it.

Not my wife.

Only his mother.

BLITZER: Longtime associates say Rumsfeld has been clearly shaken by fallout from the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. Tom DeFrank of the "New York Daily News" has been covering him for 30 years.

TOM DEFRANK, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": I think the secretary of defense I saw on Monday standing next to the president seemed contrite but he also seemed chastened. He also seemed subdued, almost humble. Humble and humility are not words you normally associate with Don Rumsfeld.

BLITZER: But does any of this mean Rumsfeld will step down in the face of the anguish and pressures?

DEFRANK: I think he is genuinely torn and troubled. I think he's trying to wrestle with his own emotions trying to figure out whether it makes more sense for him to stay or go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: In recent days Rumsfeld has appeared behind closed doors before the House armed services committee, one key member present during that session told me he's never seen the defense secretary so contrite, so clearly shaken by what's occurred.

A private viewing of the abuse pictures the world has not yet seen. I'll talk with two United States senators who saw these photos today. Also, a soldier shame. She appears in some of the prisoner photos. Now Lynndie England is speaking out. Find out what she says and who she says is responsible.

Political fallout, how the prison abuse scandal will affect the November election. I'll ask the veteran journalist Jim Lehrer.

Also ahead...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

I don't want more mothers just like me not because they're looking for...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Cruel ransom. Palestinian militant groups release a gruesome video showing what they say are the remains of dead Israeli soldiers. A horrible bargaining chip in the Middle East conflict.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ED SCHROCK (R), VIRGINIA: I'll bet you there were 150 members in there when I was in there, it was packed and it's the first time since I've been in Congress where a group of members were together and so quiet if you closed your eyes you would have thought you were in the room alone. It really had an impact on the people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The United States Congress today got a look at more grim images from Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. There are hundreds of pictures, some so sensitive that a private viewing was arranged for senators and members of the House of representatives in a secure room off-limits even to staffers. The House of representatives was given a slide presentation by the Pentagon as well. Joining us now from Capitol Hill, two U.S. senators who've these images. Texas Republican Kay Bailey Hutchinson and Minnesota Democrat Mark Dayton. Senator Hutchinson, I'll begin with you. Tell our viewers as best you can what you saw.

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHINSON (R), TEXAS: Well, what we can talk about, Wolf. There were three categories of pictures. There were the pictures of prisoner abuse, the public has seen some of those but not all. Then there were other pictures that were violent that were not really necessarily connected to the prison. And then there were volunteer pictures that had nothing to do with prisoner abuse that were of our own people. And it was pretty shocking. It was something that you wish that you never had to see and something that you'll never forget.

BLITZER: Did you see evidence of rape in those prisons by U.S. military personnel, Senator?

HUTCHINSON: I did not. I did not see that.

BLITZER: Did you see evidence of murder?

HUTCHINSON: I saw dead people, Wolf. But it was not clear -- it wasn't even connected necessarily to the prison. So I don't think that was clear at all. There were dead people in the picture but it was not necessarily in the prison setting.

BLITZER: Senator Dayton, let me bring you into this conversation. What went through your mind? What did you see?

SEN. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: They are terrible pictures. Very grotesque, obscene, some pornographic. I just wish no Americans had been associated with them.

BLITZER: Senator Dayton, were these pictures worse than what the public has already seen?

DAYTON: I think they are worse and more graphic depictions of those acts. I don't think there's anything in my judgment that would not be better off to be disclosed to people rather than hidden and imagined.

BLITZER: Did you see U.S. military personnel or American civilian contractors, new people, in these pictures, people that we have not seen in the earlier publicly released photos?

DAYTON: It's hard to tell. I didn't look closely enough at all the faces. They were running through these in sequence. I saw some of the same faces over and over, seemed to be the same prison and essentially the same personnel. I can't say they were exactly the same.

BLITZER: Were there videotapes, as well?

DAYTON: There were video, very poor quality and very dark. It was very hard to pick out the individuals involved in the videos. They were of the same genre as the still photos.

BLITZER: What did you see in the videos?

DAYTON: Iraqi prisoners being abused.

BLITZER: Can you get into more specific detail?

DAYTON: I think given the legal complexities -- I'm not a lawyer -- surrounding these, the fact they haven't been released by the Pentagon that's the best I can say.

BLITZER: Senator Hutchinson, do you think the pictures should now be made public? HUTCHINSON: The pictures are not in our custody. They are at the Pentagon. The Pentagon is, I think, doing a thorough investigation and they want to pursue justice for the people who have stained our honor many ways. And I think if the pictures being released would in any way jeopardize their ability to prosecute these people, that they should be able to use their judgment and not release them.

Also, there are privacy concerns. While some of these prisoners were, I'm sure, people who have perpetrated crimes against America, not necessarily all of them were. We found out that probably up to 90 percent of the prisoners who are taken are released. And some of them have done nothing. Some have done something, but there are issues of concern about the prisoners themselves and their privacy, as well. So I think we have to let the Department of Defense make a good judgment about what the intelligence, what the prosecution, needs in order to make the final decision about what is let out and what isn't. I think they will probably let some of these pictures out. The ones that are relevant to a prosecution, I think may be withheld.

BLITZER: What about that, Senator Dayton. What do you think? Should the Pentagon, the Bush administration let the American public see these pictures?

DAYTON: I think any form of censorship, military or governmental is antithetical against democracy. Within the parameters of what's absolutely cannot be shown for legal reasons I think they all should be disclosed. I think the sooner we get this out fully disclosed, the better to get it over and hopefully never see it again.

BLITZER: Are you at all concerned, Senator Dayton that more of these pictures could endanger American personnel in Iraq or elsewhere around the world? I say that because in this videotape of the killing of Nicholas Berg, those who killed him, those terrorists say they were doing it as revenge for the pictures shown, the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison.

DAYTON: I have seen that execution on the video and there's nothing that justifies that kind of brutal cold-blooded murder. We know al Qaeda will use any pretext. That's not about the United States, that's about their own fanaticism and perversion. I worry for our 134,000 troops that are over there who may bear the brunt of any further revenge motives. I think that we need to assess realistically as a nation and Congress with the administration what is the situation there now, with the Iraqi attitudes the way they are given the reality of what occurred. What is our game plan there? How long are we going to keep forces there? What are their objectives and how can we bring them back safely and quickly as possible with their mission accomplished.

BLITZER: Senator Dayton, I know you have seen the video of the beheading of Nick Berg. Obviously that is so much more gruesome than anything you saw today behind closed doors. Isn't that right?

DAYTON: That's correct. That is just one of the worst atrocities I have ever witnessed. Just that any human being could perpetrate that on any human being. A defenseless man, civilian, somebody who is bound and surrounded. Despicable beyond my own ability to comprehend.

BLITZER: Senator Hutchinson, do you believe the beheading of Nick Berg should affect the decision whether or not the U.S. government releases these additional pictures that you saw today including the videotape?

HUTCHINSON: I don't think the beheading of Mr. Berg should have an impact on it, but I do think the inflammatory nature of these pictures should be a consideration. As we look at the other 130,000 troops that we have over there and our allies. Our troops, you know, we've heard from our troops. They are devastated by this, as well, because they are getting such good response in so many areas in their dealings with the Iraqi people. And this draws a curtain that is so unnecessary. So I do think that should be a consideration.

BLITZER: Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Senator Mark Dayton, thanks for joining us.

She has become the face of the Iraq prisoner abuse scandal. But is Lynndie England really to blame? Up next, hear what she has to say about the now infamous prison pictures.

Violent acts on tape, now reaching the masses. How today's terror groups are using the media to spread fear around the world.

And crossing party lines, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry says he wants Rumsfeld out and he names his top choices for defense secretary. You may be surprised by his selection. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Two military police sergeants will face courts-martial in connection with the Iraqi prisoner abuse case. Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick is accused with allowing a hooded prisoner on a box with wires attached to his body. Sergeant Javal Davis (ph) is charged with lying in an official statement. The two are among seven U.S. soldiers facing criminal charges in the scandal, included in that group is Private First Class Lynndie England. She appears in photos standing near naked Iraqi detainees. England said she thought the poses were kind of weird but she was just following orders. That's what she says. CNN's Brian Todd is joining us now live with more on this pretty fascinating case.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very fascinating, Wolf. We have heard from one of her commanders, we heard from the secretary of defense, we have not heard from one of the most identifiable people in the scandal until now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): Notorious for these poses, Private First Class Lynndie England may never have figured these images would beam into the homes of millions of horrified people. Whatever she might have thought at the time, she says she and her comrades had no choice.

LYNNDIE ENGLAND, IRAQI PRISONER ABUSE PHOTOS: Told to stand there, give a thumbs up, smile, stand behind all the naked Iraqis in the pyramid. Take the picture.

TODD: Who told you to do that?

ENGLAND: Persons in my higher chain of command.

TODD: Never giving up the superiors who she claims gave the order to oppose. England also never appears to show remorse.

ENGLAND: We all agree that -- we don't feel like we were doing things that we weren't supposed to because we were told to do them. We think everything was justified because we were instructed to do this and to do that.

TODD: Appearing on CNN her attorney said England is remorseful.

GIORGIO RASHADD, LYNNDIE ENGLAND'S ATTORNEY: What she didn't do was she didn't tell you that her behavior was behavior that she woke up one night and decided to do. The behavior was manifested, ordered, advised and cheered on by M.I. and O.G.A.

TODD: M.I. for military intelligence, O.G.A. for what the attorney says are other governmental agency personnel assigned to Abu Ghraib prison and driving the treatment of detainees. These are the people England says who ordered her to pose for the infamous leash picture for so-called psychological operations.

ENGLAND: I was instructed by persons in higher rank to stand there, hold this leash, look at the camera. They took a picture (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and that's all I know.

TODD: England appears subdued as she speaks to a Denver TV station in contrast to the photos taken at Abu Ghraib. Since that time, she's been vilified and even parodied.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome update dirtbag of the week, Private First Class Lynndie England. Congratulations, Lynndie, here is your box of Virginia Slims.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This for all the dirtbags who came before me.

TODD: Whether she initiated this treatment or was following orders, England must now deal with extraordinary public scrutiny while going through pregnancy. Her family's attorney identifies a fellow MP at Abu Ghraib, Corporal Charles Grainer (ph) as the father.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: England has returned from duty in Iraq and is now based in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. She faces four criminal accounts in connection with the alleged abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib. Reacting to the comments by her attorney, Giorgio Rashadd, a CIA spokesman tells CNN there is no evidence that CIA personnel had anything to do with the abuse at Abu Ghraib prison -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks, Brian, very much.

The world's now been witness to Nicholas Berg's brutal slaying but his mother hits especially close -- but his murder, that is, hits especially close to those who knew him. Up next how Berg's hometown is coping with this horror.

Plus -- the news hour news man, I'll speak live with PBS's Jim Lehrer and the Iraqi prisoner scandal. And, later a strange citing. What were these foreign floaters? Why were they over the Mexican sky? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back

A murder scene around the world, a family dealing with unimaginable agony and grief. New information on the killing of Nicholas Berg. We'll have a live report from his hometown, West Chester, Pennsylvania. That's coming up.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

A retired FBI counterintelligence agent pleads guilty to lying about a 20-year relationship with a woman alleged to be a Chinese double agent. James Smith has agreed to cooperate with the government. Authorities accuse Katrina Leung of taking classified defense documents from Smith's briefcase. She's pleaded not guilty.

Survivors from a 1986 airliner hijacking reunite for the lead hijacker's sentencing. Zayd Hassan Abd Al-Latif Masud was convicted of murdering 21 passengers, including two Americans on Pan Am Flight 73. Several survivors spoke during the sentencing hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hated him. I was so angry just looking at him. Just the way he treated people before he killed them, just the way he made them suffer. The indignity of the way they died was, you know -- they didn't deserve that. Nobody deserves that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The Jordanian hijacker is expected to receive at least three consecutive life terms.

The International Olympic Committee predicts all venues in Athens, Greece, will be ready for the Summer Games beginning in August. IOC official added, they did not find anything in their inspection to criticize a $1 billion security effort. That's after three small bombs exploded near a police station last week.

A federal grand jury charged Alfonso Rodriguez Jr. in the kidnapping and death of North Dakota student Dru Sjodin. If convicted, he could face the death penalty. Rodriguez has pleaded not guilty. Sjodin's body was found last month in a ditch in Minnesota.

More now on the death of Nicholas Berg, who was beheaded on camera. Americans were shocked by the grisly nature of the killing. And it's been especially hard for people who knew Berg.

CNN's Maria Hinojosa is in Berg's hometown, West Chester, Pennsylvania. She's joining us now live -- Maria.

MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, all day, people have been coming by and dropping off flowers in the house behind me where Nick Berg lived.

There has been a sense of just a tremendous amount of sadness. I was speaking to one of the neighbors, and they said, Nick Berg wasn't a missionary, but that's kind of how we saw him. He was somebody who really tried to see the best in all human beings. But today there is sadness, along with a bit of anger coming from the family. And that's because the coalition forces today denying that they had Nick Berg in U.S. custody.

That forced the brother of Nick Berg to break his silence and say that wasn't true, that they had e-mails from Nick Berg saying that he had been in U.S. custody. Now, the coalition is saying, though, that while he was not in U.S. custody, he was an American. Here's the Army spokesperson from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: He was not an American soldier. He was an American government employee. He was not a CPA employee. He still was an American citizen and that's why we checked on him and that's why we are so struck by the loss, because there may have been a lot of things that he was not, but he was still an American citizen and a fellow American citizen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HINOJOSA: Now, there might be some people who wonder, why is this so important? Well, this is a family that has very strong feelings about the war. While their son Nick Berg supported the war, the father at least has publicly said did he does not, and a family quite critical of the U.S. government. They did in fact sue Donald Rumsfeld and the Department of Defense. This is what the father had to say when he was trying to search for questions of who to blame.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BERG, FATHER OF NICK BERG: That's really what cost my son his life was the fact that the United States government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights and release him when they were good and ready.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HINOJOSA: Wolf, the sad reality of death is that Nick Berg's body is en route now to a funeral home just a few minutes away from his home -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Maria Hinojosa in West Chester, Pennsylvania -- thanks, Maria, very much.

The killers of Nicholas Berg used videotape to spread the news of his beheading very, very quickly. Those gruesome images went around the world, part of an ongoing effort by terrorists to use modern tools of communication to send their messages.

Tom Foreman is here with a closer look at the public face of terrorism.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a very, very public face these days, Wolf.

Right after 9/11 the U.S. government said it was going to clamp down hard on terrorist activity on the Internet specifically. And in some cases it has. But the simple truth is terrorists are seizing new territory on the Net every day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (voice-over): Far beyond the gunfire and bombings in Iraq, this video may represent one of the most powerful and growing weapons in the terrorist arsenal, easy access to the Internet. Terrorist groups which once had to rely on mainstream media to try to get their messages out now reach around the world instantly spreading images and information.

GABRIEL WEIMANN, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: The Internet the probably the ideal medium for modern terrorism. It provides free access. It's cheap to maintain. There is no selection, no regulation, no laws, nothing limiting them.

FOREMAN: A study by the U.S. Institute of Peace says nearly all active terrorist groups now maintain Web sites, up dramatically from a few years ago. They move the sites around, change their names, but use them constantly to recruit followers, raise money and share information, including this current offer of gold for the assassination of, among others, the American administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer.

WEIMANN: It's a medium that enables them target many audiences at the same time. Many of them are using more than one Web site in more than one language. That is, there are different Web sites targeting different audiences.

FOREMAN: Americans may find these latest images of terror simply revolting, but:

CHRIS SIMPSON, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: The people who committed this murder did it and videotaped it and put it on the Internet in order to gain a political effect that they wish to gain among the audience that they are mainly interested in talking to. And, frankly, it's not the people in the United States. Nor is it the people in Europe. It's the people in the Mideast.

FOREMAN: Where terrorists are clearly betting such images will convince others to join their fight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: The way this works is very insidious. If you go to an Internet site for a terrorist group, it's pretty benign. It's about politics, that sort of thing. You look around long enough, though, you have to understand, they are watching you at the same time. You stay around, you come back often enough, they will start sending you messages, say, come join us in private chat rooms. That's how they recruit people and that's who this is working. And the government cannot stop it.

BLITZER: This is very, very scary. Tom Foreman, thanks very much.

Cruel negotiations fueling outrage in Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This time, it was so horrible and -- only because the bodies couldn't be found and what has been done to part of the bodies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Palestinian militant groups holding the body parts of slain Israeli soldiers to use as a bargaining chip in talks with Israelis.

Kerry's pick. Senator Kerry make as surprising statement about whom he'd like to see replace Donald Rumsfeld. We'll find out who that is.

And later, one on one with PBS journalist Jim Lehrer. We'll talk politics, Iraq and his new book. We'll get to all of that.

First, though a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Both sides in the 21-year-old civil war in Sudan say they are close to solving the disputes blocking a peace deal. The government and southern rebels say details need to be worked out. United Nations workers have been trying to get into the region to investigate stories of thousands of people being killed in ethnic cleansing by government-backed militias.

Heat exhaustion is blamed for the collapse of the Greek Cypriot President Tassos Papadopoulos. A government spokesman says the president was attending the funeral of a priest. He was rushed to a hospital in the capital of Nicosia for observation.

What was in the skies over Mexico in March? Members of the Mexican Air Force think they could be UFOs. Pilots taped 11 unidentified flying objects over southern parts of the country near the Gulf of Mexico. Only three of the objects showed up on radar, and members of the plane's crew say it seemed as if the bright lights were responding to them.

For the next couple of weeks the entertainment world will be centered in southern France. The Cannes Film Festival has been held since 1946. "Kill Bill" director Quentin Tarantino is the head of the jury for this year's festival.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: There has been more heavy fighting in Gaza, where at least 13 Palestinians are reported dead in two days of clashes and Israeli troops have suffered another heavy blow. The Israeli army confirms four soldiers were killed when an explosion ripped apart their armored vehicle near Rafah refugee camp. The incident is similar to one a day earlier in Gaza City, which is still being played out in gruesome fashion.

CNN's John Vause reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In death, they are held hostage, the remains of six Israeli soldiers, killed on Tuesday when their armored personnel carrier was blown apart.

Normally, one day later, there would be funerals. Instead, hundreds of Israeli troops searched two square miles of the Gaza neighborhood for body parts. From the mother of one dead soldier, a plea for the search to stop.

SARA NEWMAN, MOTHER OF DEAD SOLDIER: I don't -- I don't want more mothers just like me, not because they are looking for a finger. That isn't right.

VAUSE: Militant leaders in Gaza have offered a trade, the body parties in return for Palestinian prisoners. It's a deal the Israeli government has done before, but not this time.

RA'ANAN GISSIN, SENIOR SHARON ADVISER: They didn't only place themselves as our enemies. Those who did it place themselves very squarely as the enemies of humanity.

VAUSE (on camera): To make their point, the militant groups released this gruesome video displaying what they say are the limbs and flesh of the dead soldiers. A severed head was shown on the Hamas Web site. And while these images have not been widely seen in Israel, media reports have sparked a revulsion against Israelis rarely seen in this conflict.

(voice-over): On radio and in newspapers the talk is that somehow the fighting has reached a new low. For religious Jews, a proper burial is sacrosanct.

HAIM ZISOVITZ, ISRAEL RADIO: This time, it was so horrible and only because the bodies couldn't be found and what has been done to the part of the bodies.

VAUSE: While the Palestinian Authority condemned the Israeli incursion, it says it is doing whatever it can for the return of the soldiers' remains.

SAEB EREKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: President Arafat issued clear-cut instructions to all our security forces to do so and to exert efforts in order for these body parts to be returned.

VAUSE: Once the recovery operation is over, Israel has warned those responsible will pay a very high price. Either they will be brought to justice, says one government spokesman, or justice will be brought to them.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And we are getting this breaking development on this story right now.

Let's go straight to Gaza. CNN's Matthew Chance standing by there.

Matthew, What have you learned?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, thanks.

Well, over the past few nights, there have been very intensive clashes between Palestinian militants and Israeli troops in a neighborhood of Gaza City where they have been looking for those remains of the dead Israeli soldiers. Well, in the last few minutes the Israelis have begun their withdrawal from Gaza City.

Apparently, a deal has been struck with the Palestinian militant groups for them to return those remains of the Israeli soldiers to Israel once Israelis' tanks and troops have moved from the streets of Gaza City. That process has now begun and shall be completed in the few hours ahead, Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Matthew Chance with the latest from Gaza. Matthew, we'll be checking back with you throughout the night here on CNN.

Calls for Rumsfeld's resignation and offering his own suggestion for defense secretary. Find out whom the Democratic candidate, John Kerry, would like to see in the position, one to look outside his party. And should Green Party candidate Ralph Nader be invited to debate Bush and Kerry? I'll ask the man who has moderated all the top network debates, Jim Lehrer. He joins me live. That is coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: If Democrat John Kerry is elected president, he may look outside his own party for a defense secretary. Kerry has called for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's resignation.

In a radio interview today he suggested that Republican Senator John McCain might be a good replacement.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have any number of people that I would make secretary of defense, beginning with our good friend John McCain, as an example, and many others who could manage it very effectively.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Kerry also mentioned two other possible choices for defense secretary, Democratic Senator Carl Levin of Michigan and Republican Senator John Warner of Virginia.

Joining us now to discuss the election, veteran journalist Jim Lehrer. Lehrer is the executive author and anchor of "The NewsHour" on PBS. He's also the author of a brand new novel, "Flying Crows," your 14th novel.

(CROSSTALK)

JIM LEHRER, AUTHOR, "FLYING CROWS": Fourteenth, that's right.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Pretty prolific. We'll get to that shortly.

Have you ever in your journalistic career, which spans, what, four decades almost?

LEHRER: Forty years, yes.

BLITZER: Been as depressed as you are right now when you see what is going on in this crazy world of ours?

LEHRER: Wolf, it's the first time in the 40 years that I have not been turned on by breaking news.

This is the little boy, little girl work that you and I do and others in journalism. You hear the siren, you follow the fire. And no matter what the story is, you feel good about having done your job. These stories, as you said, you just reported them, beheadings and body parts and grotesque abuse of prisoners, these are not stories that anybody that I know of gets any pleasure at all, even breaking a big scoop.

This is different kind of journalism, at least it is for me.

BLITZER: It is for me as well.

How is it going to play out in this presidential campaign? We have got almost six months to go. But it looks like it could be decisive.

LEHRER: It could be decisive, but it's -- in order for it to be decisive, one or the other of the candidates, either Kerry or President Bush, have to make an issue of it in a way that makes it political. And if for some reason it is seen that President Bush made a decision to go into Iraq and that led to a brutalization of us as the American people or those young Americans, then maybe the case can be made.

There is no suggestion yet that he was in any way knowingly -- any way involved in making any decisions that led to the abuse. It would have to be a total thing. And John Kerry, Senator Kerry, would have to make and case and he would have to draw the parallels. And we'll just see.

BLITZER: What about the anti-war candidate who is emerging, Ralph Nader? In our national poll, the most recent one, he's getting 5 percent. Some of these so-called battleground states, about 18, he gets 6, 7 percent. He is saying cut and run. Get out of there right away. That could be a factor, especially hurting John Kerry.

LEHRER: Absolutely. And not only hurt John Kerry. It's possible that Kerry may have to switch his position a little bit. If Nader, if there becomes a really strong anti-war movement and Nader's percentage begins to grow, then Kerry will look at the numbers and realize, my goodness, I can't win this unless I figure out a way to get some of those anti-war votes. And he may have to adjust his position on it.

BLITZER: All of our viewers know you as moderating the presidential debates. What are the criteria for Ralph Nader this time to participate?

LEHRER: You know, Wolf, that's one part of this I have absolutely nothing to do with. All I do -- that's run by the Commission On Presidential Debates. They set the rules. And the candidates negotiate all of that.

My involvement comes only when I'm invited by the commission to do the moderating. I have nothing to do with the rules and I don't even pay attention to it, because I do not want to get involved in that.

BLITZER: What you do pay attention to are all of your novels.

LEHRER: Right.

BLITZER: A lot of our viewers who are news junkies, they love reading your novels. Tell us about the new one.

LEHRER: The new one is called "Flying Crows."

The title comes from the old Kansas City Southern railroad streamliner that went from Kansas City to the Texas Gulf Coast, straight as the crow flies. And it was called the Flying Crow. And my story is about the discovery of a man who lived kind of in the rafters and in the bottoms of the old Union Station in Kansas City for 63 years. And he was only discovered when they went in there to start to restore it.

And the story is who this man -- did he really live there 63 years? Why? And who was he? And it turns out he came -- he had escaped kind of from a mental institution. And it's his story and the story of a friend and a story about witnessing, interesting what we've been talking -- it's a story of witnessing terrible events and what it does to you mentally.

BLITZER: You grew up in that part of the country.

LEHRER: I did. I grew up and went to school at the University of Missouri my last two years. I grew up in Kansas, was born in Kansas. And this is my home country and I'm writing about it.

BLITZER: And so you went back, did some research?

LEHRER: Absolutely. That's the fun part. Well, I love the writing as well. But I really like going and doing -- well, just it's reporting, is what it is. But it's reporting on things that happened maybe 60 years ago and reporting on things that can help me make things up.

BLITZER: It is so hard to write fiction, but you do it well.

LEHRER: Well, thank you very much. I love doing it.

BLITZER: Thanks very much. "Flying Crows," it's a good book. Thanks very much.

LEHRER: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: The results of our "Web Question of the Day," that's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in on our "Web Question of the Day." Remember, this is not a scientific poll.

A reminder, we're on weekdays 5:00 p.m. Eastern, as well as noon Eastern. I'll see you tomorrow.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 12, 2004 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. For their eyes only. Inside two secure rooms at the United States Capitol. Lawmakers are getting a glimpse of new and very disturbing pictures of what was happening at the Abu Ghraib prison. Pictures that could prove very damaging to the United States military.

Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

Beheaded.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Nicholas Berg was a innocent civilian who was in Iraq to help build a free Iraq.

BLITZER: So why was he detained before he fell into the hands of his killers?

More abuse images. So shocking that the Senate gets an extraordinary private viewing. I'll speak with two senators who have seen them.

Speaking out, you have seen her face in the photo. Now hear her side of the story.

From the news hour to this hour. I'll talk Iraq and more with newsman and novelist Jim Lehrer.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Wednesday, May 12, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Conflicting stories from the U.S. government and relatives of an American man whose murder has shocked the world. Nick Berg's family says he told them he was held by U.S. forces not Iraqi police in the days before he was kidnapped and ultimately beheaded.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): One day after the release of this gruesome video showing Nick Berg's murder President Bush expressed his condolences to his family and friends.

BUSH: Nicholas Berg was a innocent civilian who was in Iraq to help build a free Iraq. There is no justification for the brutal execution of Nicholas Berg, no justification whatsoever.

BLITZER: With the shock of the brutal killing still fresh, new questions arose today about the weeks leading up to Berg's death. His family says the 26-year-old had already worked in post-war Iraq once. Maintaining communication towers. He returned in mid-March but this time was unable to find a job. According to U.S. officials, he was arrested by Iraqi police March 24 in Mosul suspected of suspicious activities and was never in U.S. custody. But U.S. authorities were involved.

DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: The FBI visited with Mr. Berg on three occasions when he was in Iraqi police detention and determined that he was not involved with any criminal or terrorist activities.

BLITZER: FBI agents also met with Berg's family in Pennsylvania on March 31. On April 5, the family filed a lawsuit against Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and the Defense Department saying they were holding Berg illegally. But the next day, Berg was released and soon after told his family he had been held by U.S. forces and was now trying to get home. It was the last time they heard from him. His father blames the U.S. government for his son's death insisting Berg was in American custody. According to the Associated Press, Berg's parents say he planned to return to the U.S. March 30 and could have made the trip if he'd received due process.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's really what cost my son his life was the fact the United States government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights and release him when they were good and ready.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Berg's body is now at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, efforts were being made to get a waiver allowing his family on the base to claim the remains. A public memorial service is scheduled Friday in Berg's hometown. That would be Westchester, Pennsylvania. Berg's murder has prompted revulsion and condemnation around the world and with few exceptions in Iraq, as well. CNN's Ben Wedeman has reaction from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The barrage of jarring images has bombarded Iraq of late. Fighting and destruction in Najaf and Fallujah, abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers and now the brutal videotaped beheading of an American civilian.

The head of Iraq's governing council denounced Nicholas Berg's killing.

ABDEL ZAHRA OSMAN MOHAMMAD, PRESIDENT, IRAQI GOVERNING COUNCIL (through translator): We condemn -- the Iraqi people condemns this crime, Islam condemns this crime.

WEDEMAN: We heard the same thing outside. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Slaughtering a human being is a very horrifying thing, as an Iraqi it was hard to watch such a brutal act.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Somehow they are punishing the Americans for what they did to the prisoners but two wrongs don't make a right.

WEDEMAN: Reaction to Berg's killing is tinged by intense anger over prisoner abuse. A far more emotional issue for Iraqis than the brutal murder of an American civilian.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): After they abused and dishonored the prisoners they deserved this.

WEDEMAN: On the street, skepticism about whether the man attributed with the murder even exists.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I don't think there's anyone named Abu Musab al Zarqawi. It's a name the Americans invented upon which to hang all the mistakes of the resistance.

WEDEMAN: Some blame it all on the coalition's failure to control Iraq's poorest border.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know that Iraq now is open state, and anyone can enter to Iraq without any barriers.

WEDEMAN: Recent events have left many Iraqis depressed and despairing. Summing it all up an old Iraqi friend told me in his words that people feel lost, this country has no future, we see only darkness ahead. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question of the day is this, is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any remaining Iraqi prisoner abuse pictures? You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have the results later in this broadcast.

Turning now to the fight for Iraq. U.S. forces say they killed at least 22 members of the Mehdi army loyal to the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. It happened in an overnight battle in Karbala. Al-Sadr urged his fighters to resist and he likened the conflict to the Vietnam war. Meanwhile, Sadr says he wants his Mehdi army to help patrol the volatile cities of Karbala and Najaf. He also offered to disband his militia but he says that won't happen until Iraq has an elected government and religious authorities call for the militia's dissolution.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld defended U.S. prisoner interrogation policies today. Rumsfeld told a Senate committee techniques like sleep deprivation and dietary changes are legal under the Geneva conventions. Recent reports that imprisoned Iraqis have been abused have put the defense secretary very much on the defensive. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld showing senators a softer side during testimony today.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I understand concern. By golly I've got it. But I look at Afghanistan, 25 million people liberated. Women voting, able to go to a doctor. And I look at Iraq and all I can say is I hope it comes out well. And I believe it will.

BLITZER: The same emotion, choking back tears came through Tuesday at a town hall style meeting at the Pentagon.

RUMSFELD: The look on the faces of the people who have viewed the photographs and the videos, from what took place there, they were stunned, absolutely stunned.

BLITZER: Contrast that contrition with the bombast and self confidence of the old Rumsfeld. When long-standing traditional allies, for example, refused to go along with the war against Saddam Hussein.

RUMSFELD: Now, you are thinking of Europe as Germany and France. I don't. I think that's old Europe.

BLITZER: Or when he was seen as a near rock star early in the Bush administration.

BUSH: I always love being introduced by a matinee television idol. Who would have thought it.

Not my wife.

Only his mother.

BLITZER: Longtime associates say Rumsfeld has been clearly shaken by fallout from the prisoner abuse scandal in Iraq. Tom DeFrank of the "New York Daily News" has been covering him for 30 years.

TOM DEFRANK, "NEW YORK DAILY NEWS": I think the secretary of defense I saw on Monday standing next to the president seemed contrite but he also seemed chastened. He also seemed subdued, almost humble. Humble and humility are not words you normally associate with Don Rumsfeld.

BLITZER: But does any of this mean Rumsfeld will step down in the face of the anguish and pressures?

DEFRANK: I think he is genuinely torn and troubled. I think he's trying to wrestle with his own emotions trying to figure out whether it makes more sense for him to stay or go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: In recent days Rumsfeld has appeared behind closed doors before the House armed services committee, one key member present during that session told me he's never seen the defense secretary so contrite, so clearly shaken by what's occurred.

A private viewing of the abuse pictures the world has not yet seen. I'll talk with two United States senators who saw these photos today. Also, a soldier shame. She appears in some of the prisoner photos. Now Lynndie England is speaking out. Find out what she says and who she says is responsible.

Political fallout, how the prison abuse scandal will affect the November election. I'll ask the veteran journalist Jim Lehrer.

Also ahead...

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

I don't want more mothers just like me not because they're looking for...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Cruel ransom. Palestinian militant groups release a gruesome video showing what they say are the remains of dead Israeli soldiers. A horrible bargaining chip in the Middle East conflict.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ED SCHROCK (R), VIRGINIA: I'll bet you there were 150 members in there when I was in there, it was packed and it's the first time since I've been in Congress where a group of members were together and so quiet if you closed your eyes you would have thought you were in the room alone. It really had an impact on the people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The United States Congress today got a look at more grim images from Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison. There are hundreds of pictures, some so sensitive that a private viewing was arranged for senators and members of the House of representatives in a secure room off-limits even to staffers. The House of representatives was given a slide presentation by the Pentagon as well. Joining us now from Capitol Hill, two U.S. senators who've these images. Texas Republican Kay Bailey Hutchinson and Minnesota Democrat Mark Dayton. Senator Hutchinson, I'll begin with you. Tell our viewers as best you can what you saw.

SEN. KAY BAILEY HUTCHINSON (R), TEXAS: Well, what we can talk about, Wolf. There were three categories of pictures. There were the pictures of prisoner abuse, the public has seen some of those but not all. Then there were other pictures that were violent that were not really necessarily connected to the prison. And then there were volunteer pictures that had nothing to do with prisoner abuse that were of our own people. And it was pretty shocking. It was something that you wish that you never had to see and something that you'll never forget.

BLITZER: Did you see evidence of rape in those prisons by U.S. military personnel, Senator?

HUTCHINSON: I did not. I did not see that.

BLITZER: Did you see evidence of murder?

HUTCHINSON: I saw dead people, Wolf. But it was not clear -- it wasn't even connected necessarily to the prison. So I don't think that was clear at all. There were dead people in the picture but it was not necessarily in the prison setting.

BLITZER: Senator Dayton, let me bring you into this conversation. What went through your mind? What did you see?

SEN. MARK DAYTON (D), MINNESOTA: They are terrible pictures. Very grotesque, obscene, some pornographic. I just wish no Americans had been associated with them.

BLITZER: Senator Dayton, were these pictures worse than what the public has already seen?

DAYTON: I think they are worse and more graphic depictions of those acts. I don't think there's anything in my judgment that would not be better off to be disclosed to people rather than hidden and imagined.

BLITZER: Did you see U.S. military personnel or American civilian contractors, new people, in these pictures, people that we have not seen in the earlier publicly released photos?

DAYTON: It's hard to tell. I didn't look closely enough at all the faces. They were running through these in sequence. I saw some of the same faces over and over, seemed to be the same prison and essentially the same personnel. I can't say they were exactly the same.

BLITZER: Were there videotapes, as well?

DAYTON: There were video, very poor quality and very dark. It was very hard to pick out the individuals involved in the videos. They were of the same genre as the still photos.

BLITZER: What did you see in the videos?

DAYTON: Iraqi prisoners being abused.

BLITZER: Can you get into more specific detail?

DAYTON: I think given the legal complexities -- I'm not a lawyer -- surrounding these, the fact they haven't been released by the Pentagon that's the best I can say.

BLITZER: Senator Hutchinson, do you think the pictures should now be made public? HUTCHINSON: The pictures are not in our custody. They are at the Pentagon. The Pentagon is, I think, doing a thorough investigation and they want to pursue justice for the people who have stained our honor many ways. And I think if the pictures being released would in any way jeopardize their ability to prosecute these people, that they should be able to use their judgment and not release them.

Also, there are privacy concerns. While some of these prisoners were, I'm sure, people who have perpetrated crimes against America, not necessarily all of them were. We found out that probably up to 90 percent of the prisoners who are taken are released. And some of them have done nothing. Some have done something, but there are issues of concern about the prisoners themselves and their privacy, as well. So I think we have to let the Department of Defense make a good judgment about what the intelligence, what the prosecution, needs in order to make the final decision about what is let out and what isn't. I think they will probably let some of these pictures out. The ones that are relevant to a prosecution, I think may be withheld.

BLITZER: What about that, Senator Dayton. What do you think? Should the Pentagon, the Bush administration let the American public see these pictures?

DAYTON: I think any form of censorship, military or governmental is antithetical against democracy. Within the parameters of what's absolutely cannot be shown for legal reasons I think they all should be disclosed. I think the sooner we get this out fully disclosed, the better to get it over and hopefully never see it again.

BLITZER: Are you at all concerned, Senator Dayton that more of these pictures could endanger American personnel in Iraq or elsewhere around the world? I say that because in this videotape of the killing of Nicholas Berg, those who killed him, those terrorists say they were doing it as revenge for the pictures shown, the prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison.

DAYTON: I have seen that execution on the video and there's nothing that justifies that kind of brutal cold-blooded murder. We know al Qaeda will use any pretext. That's not about the United States, that's about their own fanaticism and perversion. I worry for our 134,000 troops that are over there who may bear the brunt of any further revenge motives. I think that we need to assess realistically as a nation and Congress with the administration what is the situation there now, with the Iraqi attitudes the way they are given the reality of what occurred. What is our game plan there? How long are we going to keep forces there? What are their objectives and how can we bring them back safely and quickly as possible with their mission accomplished.

BLITZER: Senator Dayton, I know you have seen the video of the beheading of Nick Berg. Obviously that is so much more gruesome than anything you saw today behind closed doors. Isn't that right?

DAYTON: That's correct. That is just one of the worst atrocities I have ever witnessed. Just that any human being could perpetrate that on any human being. A defenseless man, civilian, somebody who is bound and surrounded. Despicable beyond my own ability to comprehend.

BLITZER: Senator Hutchinson, do you believe the beheading of Nick Berg should affect the decision whether or not the U.S. government releases these additional pictures that you saw today including the videotape?

HUTCHINSON: I don't think the beheading of Mr. Berg should have an impact on it, but I do think the inflammatory nature of these pictures should be a consideration. As we look at the other 130,000 troops that we have over there and our allies. Our troops, you know, we've heard from our troops. They are devastated by this, as well, because they are getting such good response in so many areas in their dealings with the Iraqi people. And this draws a curtain that is so unnecessary. So I do think that should be a consideration.

BLITZER: Senator Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Senator Mark Dayton, thanks for joining us.

She has become the face of the Iraq prisoner abuse scandal. But is Lynndie England really to blame? Up next, hear what she has to say about the now infamous prison pictures.

Violent acts on tape, now reaching the masses. How today's terror groups are using the media to spread fear around the world.

And crossing party lines, Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry says he wants Rumsfeld out and he names his top choices for defense secretary. You may be surprised by his selection. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Two military police sergeants will face courts-martial in connection with the Iraqi prisoner abuse case. Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick is accused with allowing a hooded prisoner on a box with wires attached to his body. Sergeant Javal Davis (ph) is charged with lying in an official statement. The two are among seven U.S. soldiers facing criminal charges in the scandal, included in that group is Private First Class Lynndie England. She appears in photos standing near naked Iraqi detainees. England said she thought the poses were kind of weird but she was just following orders. That's what she says. CNN's Brian Todd is joining us now live with more on this pretty fascinating case.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Very fascinating, Wolf. We have heard from one of her commanders, we heard from the secretary of defense, we have not heard from one of the most identifiable people in the scandal until now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): Notorious for these poses, Private First Class Lynndie England may never have figured these images would beam into the homes of millions of horrified people. Whatever she might have thought at the time, she says she and her comrades had no choice.

LYNNDIE ENGLAND, IRAQI PRISONER ABUSE PHOTOS: Told to stand there, give a thumbs up, smile, stand behind all the naked Iraqis in the pyramid. Take the picture.

TODD: Who told you to do that?

ENGLAND: Persons in my higher chain of command.

TODD: Never giving up the superiors who she claims gave the order to oppose. England also never appears to show remorse.

ENGLAND: We all agree that -- we don't feel like we were doing things that we weren't supposed to because we were told to do them. We think everything was justified because we were instructed to do this and to do that.

TODD: Appearing on CNN her attorney said England is remorseful.

GIORGIO RASHADD, LYNNDIE ENGLAND'S ATTORNEY: What she didn't do was she didn't tell you that her behavior was behavior that she woke up one night and decided to do. The behavior was manifested, ordered, advised and cheered on by M.I. and O.G.A.

TODD: M.I. for military intelligence, O.G.A. for what the attorney says are other governmental agency personnel assigned to Abu Ghraib prison and driving the treatment of detainees. These are the people England says who ordered her to pose for the infamous leash picture for so-called psychological operations.

ENGLAND: I was instructed by persons in higher rank to stand there, hold this leash, look at the camera. They took a picture (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and that's all I know.

TODD: England appears subdued as she speaks to a Denver TV station in contrast to the photos taken at Abu Ghraib. Since that time, she's been vilified and even parodied.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE": Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome update dirtbag of the week, Private First Class Lynndie England. Congratulations, Lynndie, here is your box of Virginia Slims.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This for all the dirtbags who came before me.

TODD: Whether she initiated this treatment or was following orders, England must now deal with extraordinary public scrutiny while going through pregnancy. Her family's attorney identifies a fellow MP at Abu Ghraib, Corporal Charles Grainer (ph) as the father.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: England has returned from duty in Iraq and is now based in Fort Bragg, North Carolina. She faces four criminal accounts in connection with the alleged abuse of prisoners at Abu Ghraib. Reacting to the comments by her attorney, Giorgio Rashadd, a CIA spokesman tells CNN there is no evidence that CIA personnel had anything to do with the abuse at Abu Ghraib prison -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Thanks, Brian, very much.

The world's now been witness to Nicholas Berg's brutal slaying but his mother hits especially close -- but his murder, that is, hits especially close to those who knew him. Up next how Berg's hometown is coping with this horror.

Plus -- the news hour news man, I'll speak live with PBS's Jim Lehrer and the Iraqi prisoner scandal. And, later a strange citing. What were these foreign floaters? Why were they over the Mexican sky? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back

A murder scene around the world, a family dealing with unimaginable agony and grief. New information on the killing of Nicholas Berg. We'll have a live report from his hometown, West Chester, Pennsylvania. That's coming up.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

A retired FBI counterintelligence agent pleads guilty to lying about a 20-year relationship with a woman alleged to be a Chinese double agent. James Smith has agreed to cooperate with the government. Authorities accuse Katrina Leung of taking classified defense documents from Smith's briefcase. She's pleaded not guilty.

Survivors from a 1986 airliner hijacking reunite for the lead hijacker's sentencing. Zayd Hassan Abd Al-Latif Masud was convicted of murdering 21 passengers, including two Americans on Pan Am Flight 73. Several survivors spoke during the sentencing hearing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hated him. I was so angry just looking at him. Just the way he treated people before he killed them, just the way he made them suffer. The indignity of the way they died was, you know -- they didn't deserve that. Nobody deserves that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The Jordanian hijacker is expected to receive at least three consecutive life terms.

The International Olympic Committee predicts all venues in Athens, Greece, will be ready for the Summer Games beginning in August. IOC official added, they did not find anything in their inspection to criticize a $1 billion security effort. That's after three small bombs exploded near a police station last week.

A federal grand jury charged Alfonso Rodriguez Jr. in the kidnapping and death of North Dakota student Dru Sjodin. If convicted, he could face the death penalty. Rodriguez has pleaded not guilty. Sjodin's body was found last month in a ditch in Minnesota.

More now on the death of Nicholas Berg, who was beheaded on camera. Americans were shocked by the grisly nature of the killing. And it's been especially hard for people who knew Berg.

CNN's Maria Hinojosa is in Berg's hometown, West Chester, Pennsylvania. She's joining us now live -- Maria.

MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, all day, people have been coming by and dropping off flowers in the house behind me where Nick Berg lived.

There has been a sense of just a tremendous amount of sadness. I was speaking to one of the neighbors, and they said, Nick Berg wasn't a missionary, but that's kind of how we saw him. He was somebody who really tried to see the best in all human beings. But today there is sadness, along with a bit of anger coming from the family. And that's because the coalition forces today denying that they had Nick Berg in U.S. custody.

That forced the brother of Nick Berg to break his silence and say that wasn't true, that they had e-mails from Nick Berg saying that he had been in U.S. custody. Now, the coalition is saying, though, that while he was not in U.S. custody, he was an American. Here's the Army spokesperson from Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. DEPUTY CHIEF OF OPERATIONS: He was not an American soldier. He was an American government employee. He was not a CPA employee. He still was an American citizen and that's why we checked on him and that's why we are so struck by the loss, because there may have been a lot of things that he was not, but he was still an American citizen and a fellow American citizen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HINOJOSA: Now, there might be some people who wonder, why is this so important? Well, this is a family that has very strong feelings about the war. While their son Nick Berg supported the war, the father at least has publicly said did he does not, and a family quite critical of the U.S. government. They did in fact sue Donald Rumsfeld and the Department of Defense. This is what the father had to say when he was trying to search for questions of who to blame.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BERG, FATHER OF NICK BERG: That's really what cost my son his life was the fact that the United States government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights and release him when they were good and ready.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HINOJOSA: Wolf, the sad reality of death is that Nick Berg's body is en route now to a funeral home just a few minutes away from his home -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Maria Hinojosa in West Chester, Pennsylvania -- thanks, Maria, very much.

The killers of Nicholas Berg used videotape to spread the news of his beheading very, very quickly. Those gruesome images went around the world, part of an ongoing effort by terrorists to use modern tools of communication to send their messages.

Tom Foreman is here with a closer look at the public face of terrorism.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's a very, very public face these days, Wolf.

Right after 9/11 the U.S. government said it was going to clamp down hard on terrorist activity on the Internet specifically. And in some cases it has. But the simple truth is terrorists are seizing new territory on the Net every day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (voice-over): Far beyond the gunfire and bombings in Iraq, this video may represent one of the most powerful and growing weapons in the terrorist arsenal, easy access to the Internet. Terrorist groups which once had to rely on mainstream media to try to get their messages out now reach around the world instantly spreading images and information.

GABRIEL WEIMANN, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: The Internet the probably the ideal medium for modern terrorism. It provides free access. It's cheap to maintain. There is no selection, no regulation, no laws, nothing limiting them.

FOREMAN: A study by the U.S. Institute of Peace says nearly all active terrorist groups now maintain Web sites, up dramatically from a few years ago. They move the sites around, change their names, but use them constantly to recruit followers, raise money and share information, including this current offer of gold for the assassination of, among others, the American administrator in Iraq, Paul Bremer.

WEIMANN: It's a medium that enables them target many audiences at the same time. Many of them are using more than one Web site in more than one language. That is, there are different Web sites targeting different audiences.

FOREMAN: Americans may find these latest images of terror simply revolting, but:

CHRIS SIMPSON, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: The people who committed this murder did it and videotaped it and put it on the Internet in order to gain a political effect that they wish to gain among the audience that they are mainly interested in talking to. And, frankly, it's not the people in the United States. Nor is it the people in Europe. It's the people in the Mideast.

FOREMAN: Where terrorists are clearly betting such images will convince others to join their fight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: The way this works is very insidious. If you go to an Internet site for a terrorist group, it's pretty benign. It's about politics, that sort of thing. You look around long enough, though, you have to understand, they are watching you at the same time. You stay around, you come back often enough, they will start sending you messages, say, come join us in private chat rooms. That's how they recruit people and that's who this is working. And the government cannot stop it.

BLITZER: This is very, very scary. Tom Foreman, thanks very much.

Cruel negotiations fueling outrage in Israel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This time, it was so horrible and -- only because the bodies couldn't be found and what has been done to part of the bodies.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Palestinian militant groups holding the body parts of slain Israeli soldiers to use as a bargaining chip in talks with Israelis.

Kerry's pick. Senator Kerry make as surprising statement about whom he'd like to see replace Donald Rumsfeld. We'll find out who that is.

And later, one on one with PBS journalist Jim Lehrer. We'll talk politics, Iraq and his new book. We'll get to all of that.

First, though a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Both sides in the 21-year-old civil war in Sudan say they are close to solving the disputes blocking a peace deal. The government and southern rebels say details need to be worked out. United Nations workers have been trying to get into the region to investigate stories of thousands of people being killed in ethnic cleansing by government-backed militias.

Heat exhaustion is blamed for the collapse of the Greek Cypriot President Tassos Papadopoulos. A government spokesman says the president was attending the funeral of a priest. He was rushed to a hospital in the capital of Nicosia for observation.

What was in the skies over Mexico in March? Members of the Mexican Air Force think they could be UFOs. Pilots taped 11 unidentified flying objects over southern parts of the country near the Gulf of Mexico. Only three of the objects showed up on radar, and members of the plane's crew say it seemed as if the bright lights were responding to them.

For the next couple of weeks the entertainment world will be centered in southern France. The Cannes Film Festival has been held since 1946. "Kill Bill" director Quentin Tarantino is the head of the jury for this year's festival.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: There has been more heavy fighting in Gaza, where at least 13 Palestinians are reported dead in two days of clashes and Israeli troops have suffered another heavy blow. The Israeli army confirms four soldiers were killed when an explosion ripped apart their armored vehicle near Rafah refugee camp. The incident is similar to one a day earlier in Gaza City, which is still being played out in gruesome fashion.

CNN's John Vause reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In death, they are held hostage, the remains of six Israeli soldiers, killed on Tuesday when their armored personnel carrier was blown apart.

Normally, one day later, there would be funerals. Instead, hundreds of Israeli troops searched two square miles of the Gaza neighborhood for body parts. From the mother of one dead soldier, a plea for the search to stop.

SARA NEWMAN, MOTHER OF DEAD SOLDIER: I don't -- I don't want more mothers just like me, not because they are looking for a finger. That isn't right.

VAUSE: Militant leaders in Gaza have offered a trade, the body parties in return for Palestinian prisoners. It's a deal the Israeli government has done before, but not this time.

RA'ANAN GISSIN, SENIOR SHARON ADVISER: They didn't only place themselves as our enemies. Those who did it place themselves very squarely as the enemies of humanity.

VAUSE (on camera): To make their point, the militant groups released this gruesome video displaying what they say are the limbs and flesh of the dead soldiers. A severed head was shown on the Hamas Web site. And while these images have not been widely seen in Israel, media reports have sparked a revulsion against Israelis rarely seen in this conflict.

(voice-over): On radio and in newspapers the talk is that somehow the fighting has reached a new low. For religious Jews, a proper burial is sacrosanct.

HAIM ZISOVITZ, ISRAEL RADIO: This time, it was so horrible and only because the bodies couldn't be found and what has been done to the part of the bodies.

VAUSE: While the Palestinian Authority condemned the Israeli incursion, it says it is doing whatever it can for the return of the soldiers' remains.

SAEB EREKAT, CHIEF PALESTINIAN NEGOTIATOR: President Arafat issued clear-cut instructions to all our security forces to do so and to exert efforts in order for these body parts to be returned.

VAUSE: Once the recovery operation is over, Israel has warned those responsible will pay a very high price. Either they will be brought to justice, says one government spokesman, or justice will be brought to them.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And we are getting this breaking development on this story right now.

Let's go straight to Gaza. CNN's Matthew Chance standing by there.

Matthew, What have you learned?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, thanks.

Well, over the past few nights, there have been very intensive clashes between Palestinian militants and Israeli troops in a neighborhood of Gaza City where they have been looking for those remains of the dead Israeli soldiers. Well, in the last few minutes the Israelis have begun their withdrawal from Gaza City.

Apparently, a deal has been struck with the Palestinian militant groups for them to return those remains of the Israeli soldiers to Israel once Israelis' tanks and troops have moved from the streets of Gaza City. That process has now begun and shall be completed in the few hours ahead, Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Matthew Chance with the latest from Gaza. Matthew, we'll be checking back with you throughout the night here on CNN.

Calls for Rumsfeld's resignation and offering his own suggestion for defense secretary. Find out whom the Democratic candidate, John Kerry, would like to see in the position, one to look outside his party. And should Green Party candidate Ralph Nader be invited to debate Bush and Kerry? I'll ask the man who has moderated all the top network debates, Jim Lehrer. He joins me live. That is coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: If Democrat John Kerry is elected president, he may look outside his own party for a defense secretary. Kerry has called for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld's resignation.

In a radio interview today he suggested that Republican Senator John McCain might be a good replacement.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have any number of people that I would make secretary of defense, beginning with our good friend John McCain, as an example, and many others who could manage it very effectively.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Kerry also mentioned two other possible choices for defense secretary, Democratic Senator Carl Levin of Michigan and Republican Senator John Warner of Virginia.

Joining us now to discuss the election, veteran journalist Jim Lehrer. Lehrer is the executive author and anchor of "The NewsHour" on PBS. He's also the author of a brand new novel, "Flying Crows," your 14th novel.

(CROSSTALK)

JIM LEHRER, AUTHOR, "FLYING CROWS": Fourteenth, that's right.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Pretty prolific. We'll get to that shortly.

Have you ever in your journalistic career, which spans, what, four decades almost?

LEHRER: Forty years, yes.

BLITZER: Been as depressed as you are right now when you see what is going on in this crazy world of ours?

LEHRER: Wolf, it's the first time in the 40 years that I have not been turned on by breaking news.

This is the little boy, little girl work that you and I do and others in journalism. You hear the siren, you follow the fire. And no matter what the story is, you feel good about having done your job. These stories, as you said, you just reported them, beheadings and body parts and grotesque abuse of prisoners, these are not stories that anybody that I know of gets any pleasure at all, even breaking a big scoop.

This is different kind of journalism, at least it is for me.

BLITZER: It is for me as well.

How is it going to play out in this presidential campaign? We have got almost six months to go. But it looks like it could be decisive.

LEHRER: It could be decisive, but it's -- in order for it to be decisive, one or the other of the candidates, either Kerry or President Bush, have to make an issue of it in a way that makes it political. And if for some reason it is seen that President Bush made a decision to go into Iraq and that led to a brutalization of us as the American people or those young Americans, then maybe the case can be made.

There is no suggestion yet that he was in any way knowingly -- any way involved in making any decisions that led to the abuse. It would have to be a total thing. And John Kerry, Senator Kerry, would have to make and case and he would have to draw the parallels. And we'll just see.

BLITZER: What about the anti-war candidate who is emerging, Ralph Nader? In our national poll, the most recent one, he's getting 5 percent. Some of these so-called battleground states, about 18, he gets 6, 7 percent. He is saying cut and run. Get out of there right away. That could be a factor, especially hurting John Kerry.

LEHRER: Absolutely. And not only hurt John Kerry. It's possible that Kerry may have to switch his position a little bit. If Nader, if there becomes a really strong anti-war movement and Nader's percentage begins to grow, then Kerry will look at the numbers and realize, my goodness, I can't win this unless I figure out a way to get some of those anti-war votes. And he may have to adjust his position on it.

BLITZER: All of our viewers know you as moderating the presidential debates. What are the criteria for Ralph Nader this time to participate?

LEHRER: You know, Wolf, that's one part of this I have absolutely nothing to do with. All I do -- that's run by the Commission On Presidential Debates. They set the rules. And the candidates negotiate all of that.

My involvement comes only when I'm invited by the commission to do the moderating. I have nothing to do with the rules and I don't even pay attention to it, because I do not want to get involved in that.

BLITZER: What you do pay attention to are all of your novels.

LEHRER: Right.

BLITZER: A lot of our viewers who are news junkies, they love reading your novels. Tell us about the new one.

LEHRER: The new one is called "Flying Crows."

The title comes from the old Kansas City Southern railroad streamliner that went from Kansas City to the Texas Gulf Coast, straight as the crow flies. And it was called the Flying Crow. And my story is about the discovery of a man who lived kind of in the rafters and in the bottoms of the old Union Station in Kansas City for 63 years. And he was only discovered when they went in there to start to restore it.

And the story is who this man -- did he really live there 63 years? Why? And who was he? And it turns out he came -- he had escaped kind of from a mental institution. And it's his story and the story of a friend and a story about witnessing, interesting what we've been talking -- it's a story of witnessing terrible events and what it does to you mentally.

BLITZER: You grew up in that part of the country.

LEHRER: I did. I grew up and went to school at the University of Missouri my last two years. I grew up in Kansas, was born in Kansas. And this is my home country and I'm writing about it.

BLITZER: And so you went back, did some research?

LEHRER: Absolutely. That's the fun part. Well, I love the writing as well. But I really like going and doing -- well, just it's reporting, is what it is. But it's reporting on things that happened maybe 60 years ago and reporting on things that can help me make things up.

BLITZER: It is so hard to write fiction, but you do it well.

LEHRER: Well, thank you very much. I love doing it.

BLITZER: Thanks very much. "Flying Crows," it's a good book. Thanks very much.

LEHRER: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: The results of our "Web Question of the Day," that's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in on our "Web Question of the Day." Remember, this is not a scientific poll.

A reminder, we're on weekdays 5:00 p.m. Eastern, as well as noon Eastern. I'll see you tomorrow.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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