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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

U.S. Changes Interrogation Techniques in Iraq; Fighting Continues in Najaf; Poll Shows Trouble for Bush

Aired May 14, 2004 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. We're getting a new CNN/"TIME" magazine poll on the battle between George Bush and John Kerry. One of these candidates will find the numbers very disturbing.
Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

Abu Ghraib. As hundreds of prisoners reach the outside, a U.S. soldiers tells the inside story of abuse. But what's his motive?

Battleground on sacred ground. Slugging it out in a Shiite holy city.

A new low? I'll ask the man who's seen it all, from the Vietnam War through scandals in Washington, veteran journalist Bob Schieffer.

Glass slipper. She met her prince in a bar. Now she's in line to become queen of Denmark.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Friday, May 14, 2004.

BLITZER: We're learning about major changes in the way U.S. forces can interrogate prisoners in Iraq. That news comes as another American soldier now faces court-martial arraignment next week for alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, is joining us now live with details -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf -- Wolf, the situation here is that two different pictures are emerging about how high approval for some of this abuse might have come at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad from two different soldiers, both accused of wrongdoing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over) The attorney for one of the accused ringleaders of the abuse, Specialist Charles Graner, says this photo shows not just Graner and two other military police but also four enlisted men from military intelligence, along with a civilian translator.

Graner insists higher ups were well aware of the cooperation between the prison guards and interrogators and the methods they used to soften prisoners up. GUY WOMACK, GRANER'S ATTORNEY: This was an interrogation center. He was being directed by military intelligence officers and others in the intel community. And he felt these were lawful orders. He had to obey those orders.

MCINTYRE: But another accused soldier, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, who has agreed to plea guilty and testify against the other six, says senior enlisted and officers were unaware of the mistreatment.

"Our command would have slammed us," Sivits told investigators in a sworn statement. "They believe in doing the right thing. If they saw what was going on, there would be hell to pay."

Sivits says it was Graner who ordered Iraqis to strip in Arabic and forced them into the pyramid of naked bodies.

Sivits' statement also details abuse that went beyond humiliation. In one case he says Graner punched the detainee with a closed first so hard in the temple that the detainee was knocked unconscious.

In another case, Sivits says Sergeant Javal Davis, another accused soldier, stomped on either the fingers or toes of the detainees, causing them to scream loudly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: And just today, the Pentagon revealed that the rules of engagement for interrogation that it listed a number of controversial procedures, remember you might have seen this, was provided to members of Congress, that included things such as sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation and stress positions.

Those have all been eliminated now from the possible techniques that interrogators can use.

But the Pentagon makes the point that none of these techniques, which all required special approval, had actually been implemented in Iraq. In fact, there had been no requests to use any of these on any of the detainees in Iraq -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Do these new rules, Jamie, apply only in Iraq or Guantanamo Bay or elsewhere?

MCINTYRE: These are only in Iraq, issued by Lieutenant General Sanchez after the controversy about some of these positions.

They looked at them and they said, "You know, we're not using any of those techniques. Let's just take them off the table so they won't be a source of controversy anymore."

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Jamie, thanks very much.

Hundreds of Iraqi detainees were freed from the Abu Ghraib prison today. It's the first mass prisoner release since the abuse photos surfaced, coming just a day after the visit by the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld.

CNN's Ben Wedeman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Out of prison, and on their way home.

Five buses left Abu Ghraib Friday morning, taking around 300 former detainees away from a prison that, under Saddam Hussein, was spoken of only in whispers. And under U.S. control has become, for many Iraqis, symbolic of an American occupation gone sour.

A moment of joy for some; others saw no familiar faces smiling back. Sumir Ahmed (ph) was hoping his brother, in coalition custody for nearly a year would be released. He wasn't.

"My brother has six small kids," said Sumir (ph). "This is painful."

In Baghdad, Hussein Sami (ph) and his three brothers return home, months of anxiety finally over, though one of Hussein's brother is still a prisoner.

And inevitably there are claims of abuse.

"They stripped me," says one prisoner who didn't give his name. "They beat me and sprayed cold water on me."

Such claims have yet to be confirmed. But following widespread broadcast of graphic photos of prisoner abuse, few Iraqis are likely to dispute them.

(on camera) The recent Red Cross report on Iraq estimates that anywhere between 70 and 90 percent of detainees were arrested by mistake. But there's no mistaking that among those who were released today the coalition has created new enemies at a time when it hardly needs anymore.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, outside Abu Ghraib prison.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: In Najaf, U.S. troops fought pitched battles with the militia of a radical cleric, even as an aide to Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani urged both sides to stop fighting and pull out of the Shiite holy city.

CNN's Jane Arraf reports from the scene of the clashes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was supposed to be a day for a peaceful protest, hundreds of thousands of residents in Najaf coming out to demonstrate that they wanted peace and an end to militias. Instead there was violence. Members of the Mehdi militia attacked a main police station, secured just the previous night by U.S. tanks and troops to welcome a new (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They hit it with gunfire, rocket propelled grenades, and U.S. forces fired back.

There and on the edge of the holy city, the cemetery around the holy shrines where U.S. troops, they say, for the first time went on to the cemetery to face people ambushing them. They say they killed more than a dozen suspected militia members, captured almost as many.

They did retreat from the cemetery, but U.S. officials here say that if they are attacked they will go where they need to. At the same time they are trying to get a political solution. But with the ongoing violence and ongoing attacks against U.S. Forces in Najaf, Karbala and other places, a solution doesn't seem imminent.

Jane Arraf, CNN, reporting from Najaf.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question of the day is this: "In the wake of Abu Ghraib, can the U.S. still win the hearts and minds of Iraqis?" You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/Wolf. We'll have the results a little bit later in this broadcast.

While you're there, though, I would love to hear directly from you. Send me your comments any time. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also where you can read my daily on line column, CNN.com/Wolf.

Prisoner abuse and continued fighting in Iraq appear to be taking a toll on President Bush, according to the latest CNN/"TIME" magazine poll. Here with the details, our senior political analyst Bill Schneider.

Bill, how's the president doing on this and other issues?

BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Wolf, the results of our CNN/"TIME" poll are just in, and what they show is trouble for President Bush.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): In the past, the president has gotten very high marks for his handling of terrorism, low marks on the economy, with Iraq, somewhere in between.

Now, despite continuing job gains, the number who think the president is doing a good job on the economy has dipped below 40 percent for the first time. Fifty-fives percent say he's doing a poor job on the economy.

His rating on Iraq is just as bad. That's taken a real tumble. The public is now split over whether the U.S. was right or wrong to go to war in Iraq. The big shock has to be terrorism, always the president's strong suit. The public has now split over whether President Bush is doing a good job or a poor job on terrorism. That's serious political trouble.

Meanwhile, John Kerry is gaining on President Bush. When asked, who would do a better job on terrorism, Kerry is nearly equal to Bush. Kerry 42, Bush 49. And that's Bush's best issue.

Moral values? Bush is ahead by only four points. Another Bush strength, nearly gone.

Kerry's in the lead on health care, environment, jobs, taxes. That's right, voters prefer Kerry to Bush on taxes.

And asked who would do a better job handling the issue of gay marriage, the result is a tie. Bush 39, Kerry 39. They both oppose gay marriage, but President Bush's endorsement of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage doesn't seem to have given him an advantage.

Where does the presidential race stand? Kerry 51, Bush 46 among likely voters, within the margin of error statistically. But this is the first time we've ever seen a majority of voters saying they'd vote for Kerry.

What happens if we include Ralph Nader as a third choice? Nothing. Still Kerry over Bush by five, with Kerry just shy of a majority.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: President Bush has had a bad few weeks, and the poll reflects that on all fronts, even the economy.

BLITZER: I was surprised that Ralph Nader factor. He seems to be taking votes from both sides, the going conventional wisdom is he would take most votes from John Kerry.

SCHNEIDER: What that suggests is the Democratic vote is holding together, just as it held together remarkably well in the primaries, refusing to go with Howard Dean, solidifying behind John Kerry.

Right now it's still very strong. I think President Bush has done that to the Democrats. They are holding together, and even the temptation to vote to Ralph Nader isn't getting many Democrats to defect.

BLITZER: Yet, still six percent nationally. That's significant. He could be a factor when all is said and done. We'll have to wait and see.

Bill Schneider, thanks very much.

Ralph Nader will be among my guests Sunday on CNN's "LATE EDITION." Mourning and continued questions surrounding the beheading of Nick Berg. Now the Justice Department weighs in on possible ties for terrorism.

The race for the White House. I'll talk about that and more with veteran CBS journalist Bob Schieffer.

Plus, a real life fairy tale culminates in a really royal wedding.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Anti-American outrage in Havana. Fidel Castro leads a cast of hundreds of thousands and vows to die for Cuba. Coming up, find out what triggered this massive demonstration.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Nick Berg, the Pennsylvania man beheaded by terrorists in Iraq, has been laid to rest. But there are still questions surrounding his final weeks.

Tom Foreman is here. He's following the story for us -- Tom.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, very hard questions are still being asked about exactly why Nick Berg was kept in Iraq as the situation there grew more and more dangerous, and who was keeping him there?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (voice-over): Near Philadelphia, Nick Berg's family held a memorial service today as U.S. officials hunted for his killers.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We take the murder of American citizens very seriously.

FOREMAN: Condolences are piling up on this memorial web site. The victim's family, however, is accusing the U.S. government of contributing to his death by holding him in Iraq long after he intended to leave.

According to the family, when Berg entered Iraq in early March, he planned to come home at month's end. Iraqi police, however, picked him up at a roadblock on March 24, and he was jailed for two weeks. He told another American businessman all about it.

ANDREW ROBERT DUKE, U.S. BUSINESSMAN IN IRAQ: He though it was -- it was crazy that he had been detained, and he couldn't understand why it had taken so long for him to be released.

FOREMAN: But who was holding him? Iraqi police sources say they gave Berg to American soldiers an hour after his arrest.

Berg's family received e-mails from consular officer Beth Pane which said, "I have confirmed your son, Nick, is being detained by the U.S. military."

Coalition spokesman Dan Senor, however, insists the Iraqis had him the whole time, even when the FBI questioned Berg.

DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: I think some of the confusion emanates from the fact that at a number of the Iraqi detention facilities throughout the country, there are American M.P.'s who play a support role there, but it doesn't detract from the fact it's still an Iraqi facility.

FOREMAN: Berg's family suggests all this matters because while Berg was locked up, violence was growing. Other inmates were learning that he was Jewish, and his ability to escape the country was deteriorating.

JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: There does seem to be a plausible case of negligence here. The fact that a U.S. citizen was released into -- what became a combat zone does raise serious questions of judgment.

FOREMAN: Government officials insist they told Berg to leave, offered him a plane out and that he refused. The vice president, meanwhile, told a Jewish group in Florida...

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATS: The event murder of Nicholas Berg, like the murder of Daniel Pearl in 2002, is a reminder that there are evil people in the world capable of any atrocity and determined to take innocent life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: Of course, nothing is going to bring Nicholas Berg back to his family, a brother, a son of these people, but they're pressing forward for these questions a very simple reason. They believe if they keep pressing, maybe they can get some answers about his final hours, what happened to him.

And I think until those answers come, they're not going to quit asking the questions.

BLITZER: These are grieving parents. You've got to understand what they're going through.

FOREMAN: They are.

BLITZER: It's impossible to do it, but we'll try.

Thanks very much, Tom Foreman.

The war in Iraq and the race for the White House. Veteran CBS journalist Bob Schieffer weighs in on those stories and more.

The hand-over of power in Iraq just weeks away. I'll speak with the U.S. general in charge of training for Iraqi forces.

Plus, what's next in the presidential campaign? CNN's Carlos Watson, he'll join us live with the inside edge.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Veteran CBS journalist Bob Schieffer, who covered the Vietnam War, knows firsthand how combat can push troops over the edge. But when it comes to the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, he's adamant that those guilty must be punished.

That said, he places the blame for what happened on several factors. I spoke with him about all of this just a short while ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Bob Schieffer, thanks very much for joining us. There are many critics of the media, conservative, especially, who say we should have never published these photos of the prisoner abuse of the Abu Ghraib prison.

Should we have published them?

BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think we had no choice but to do it, Wolf.

And you know, the Army was moving on this thing. Yes, they had had an investigation. Yes, as they say, they were investigating what ought to be done.

But what I find striking is that two months after the investigation was complete, here you had the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Richard Myers, who I consider a patriotic American and a good soldier, come on face the nation and say he had not yet read the report, that it was still working its way up the chain of command.

I believe the military was investigating, but they did not seem to take any action until -- until this thing broke in the press. And so I think we had no choice but to do that. And I think in the end, it will be for the greater good.

Because the main thing, we talked a lot, Wolf, about the impact this is going to have on the Arab world. But the main problem here is these were procedures that we cannot have. We cannot run our Army this way.

When you have -- sending people into combat that are ill trained, ill equipped and unprepared for what they're going to find there, you're going to have a disaster. That's a recipe for disaster.

And maybe, not for what the impact is on the Arab world. But for our own good, maybe we can get this thing cleaned up, because we have to.

BLITZER: Well, now that those pictures have been released and everybody in the world basically has seen them, does it serve any useful purpose to go ahead and broadcast or publish the remaining pictures that members of the House and Senate have seen but the public has not yet had access to?

SCHNEIDER: Personally, I do not want to see these pictures. I've seen enough of this.

The one thing that does worry me is that, if they are not released, can we be assured in some way that action is going to be taken and that we move to clean this thing up? That's the part that worries me.

It seems to me that the military was moving very slowly, as I said, until this became public. So for that reason that would, in my view, be the only reason to release them.

As far as publishing them so we can put them on television or I can see them, I'm not going to look at them, probably, anyway. So I think that would be the only reason.

If I have assurance that the Congress is on top of this, and is moving to correct it, it's fine with me if they keep them secret.

BLITZER: Let me read for you from your May 9 column. You write, "What the prison guards in Iraq did was indefensible. They must be punished, but the ultimate responsibility for what happened rests with those who sent them into a war zone untrained and unprepared. There's the crime."

Who are you referring to?

SCHIEFFER: Well, I'm talking to people up the line. I'm talking to people who designed this plan.

Look, these kids -- most of them are reservists -- are sent in there. They have no training. They were trained as traffic cops. And suddenly they're put in this environment.

One thing that I learned in Vietnam, Wolf, is that war not only brings out the good in people, it brings out the worst at times in people. Because human nature does have a dark side.

It is as important to teach these young people about the temptations that they will face in a war zone as it is to teach them to shoot straight.

They not only had no training, there was no chain of command. There was no mission statement. Nobody knew who was in charge. And when that happens, you're going to have problems. And as we now understand, in this case, very big problems.

BLITZER: Let me read to you what you wrote in your book, "This Just In: What I Couldn't Tell You on TV," referring to your days when you were covering the war in Vietnam.

You said this. You said, "In war we are separated from people we know and placed in an environment where people we care about back home will never know what we do. In a war zone it is easy to believe that the rules that we have lived by all our lives no longer apply." Do you think that was a situation in Iraq, as well?

SCHIEFFER: This is exactly what I am talking about. And there's the crime.

These people were not trained. Yes, indeed they need to be punished, but, Wolf, you have to design your training.

When you're sending people into a war zone -- this is an awful thing to say -- you don't design it and aim it at the smart people. They figure it out, generally. You have to aim it at those who might not figure it out. And -- and they have to be told in no uncertain terms. "This is what you do. This is what you don't do." They have to know who's in charge.

At one point during this thing, Wolf, they actually changed commanders there and didn't get around to telling the people that those -- that they were commanding that they had a new person in charge. Neither the people above that person and the person -- the people below them knew who was running things.

Somebody has to be responsible. And in this case, apparently, no one was.

You know, it's the old saying, when everyone is in charge, no one's in charge. These people didn't know who they reported to, and they did not know what it was they were supposed to be doing.

BLITZER: Bob Schieffer, as usual, thanks very much.

SCHIEFFER: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: President Bush says the June 30 deadline over handing power in Iraq over to the Iraqis is still very much a go. But when might U.S. troops leave? The chief U.S. administrator, Paul Bremer, hinting that could come sooner than some expect.

Outrage in Cuba. Fidel Castro says President Bush is fighting wars of conquest, as the streets of Havana flood in mass protest.

And look at this, a royal wedding. Hear what makes it a first for Denmark.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Could U.S. troops begin pulling out of Iraq soon? The top U.S. civilian in Iraq explains how that possibly could happen. That story coming up.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

The self-proclaimed leader of al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia says his forces are now coordinating attacks with militants in Iraq. The claims were made in an Internet magazine that was posted on several Islamist Web sites. Abdel Aziz Al Maqran (ph) is considered a terrorist by Saudi Arabia. He also claimed responsibility for an attack on foreign workers in Saudi Arabia this month that killed five people.

The Riggs Bank here in here Washington, D.C., was fined $25 million today in connection with a probe into money laundering and terrorist financing. The bank is also required to hire an outside consultant to review previous banking transactions for suspicious activity. Riggs agreed to accept the fines, but did not admit to wrongdoing.

New York state's attorney general says his state will recognize the marriages of same-sex couples from New York who are married in Massachusetts. On Monday, Massachusetts becomes the first state to make same-sex marriages legal.

The editor of the London "Daily Mirror" newspaper has stepped down after the paper conceded it published fake pictures of British soldiers abusing an Iraqi prisoner. "The Mirror" said it would be inappropriate for Piers Morgan to continue. The paper said it believed the pictures were genuine and that it had been -- quote -- "the subject of a calculated and malicious hoax."

President Bush today vowed to stick to a June 30 deadline for handing over power in Iraq. But aides were scrambling to clarify comments from the U.S. point man in Iraq, Ambassador Paul Bremer, about the future U.S. troop presence.

Let's go live to our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it really was a hypothetical question that was asked of U.S. Ambassador Paul Bremer whether or not the U.S. troops, coalition forces will remain inside Iraq, whether or not the Iraqis wanted it.

It really reflects the depth of the questions and the doubts on how this turnover of power is going to actually work, but U.S. officials say that they have been making some progress in trying to sort all of that out. The White House clearly engaged in this delicate balancing act, on the one hand ensuring security for the Iraqi people, on the other hand ensuring their independence as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: We don't stay in countries where we are not wanted. So if the provisional government, the interim government were to ask us to leave, we would leave. We don't stay where we're not wanted. I don't think that will happen because I think almost all Iraqis recognize, as we discussed earlier, the governor, that there's a real need to reconstruct the Iraqi security forces to make them capable of dealing with the threat from the Saddamists and terrorists. And we will not be at that point by June 30.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Now, Bremer also said that under U.N. Security Council resolution 1511 that coalition forces could actually stay inside of Iraq, but U.S. officials made it very clear today, saying that there is no indication from the Iraqis themselves that they want those coalition forces to pull out any time soon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I have no doubt that the interim Iraqi government will welcome the continued presence and operation of coalition military forces. So I'm losing absolutely no sleep thinking that they might ask us to leave during this interim period while we're building up their forces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And, Wolf, the U.S. officials also say they hope with the new U.N. Security Council resolution it will allow this international umbrella for those forces, coalition forces, other troops from various countries to allow them to stay inside Iraq to help with the security efforts.

They do not believe, Wolf, that this is going to be an issue.

BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, thanks very much for that.

The U.S. Army commander who led the 101st Airborne Division in combat in Iraq is gearing up for another tough, but very different mission. Early next month, Major General David Petraeus goes back to Iraq to direct the training of local police and security forces in Iraq.

Earlier, I spoke with general Petraeus at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, home base of the famed Screaming Eagles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: General Petraeus, thanks very much for joining us. I know you are heading off in the next few weeks back to Iraq for a new mission. We'll get to that momentarily.

But I want your thoughts. When you saw those horrific pictures of the prisoner abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison, as a soldier who has been involved in these matters for so many years, what went through your mind?

MAJ. GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, U.S. ARMY: Well, it was a shock, Wolf.

And I think Secretary Rumsfeld said it was like a punch to the gut. It takes the air out of you a bit and can really set you back. But, you know, at the end of that, you've got to do the same thing after any challenge in the battlefield over there. And that is an after-action review, make the changes necessary and drive on with the mission.

BLITZER: As a division commander, and you were the division commander for the 101st Airborne Division, the so-called Screaming Eagles, how do you know what is going on way down -- you are commanding thousands and thousands of soldiers.

PETRAEUS: Well, you've got a chain of command Wolf. And you have got to use it. And it has to be the extension of you.

In the north, for example, we had the assistant division commanders and I and others would make frequent visits to the detention facilities. And over time, we started inviting the ICRC in and the province council together with an imam and also other members of the local community. It was a good action force and mechanism for us, frankly, and it helped to keep things correct.

BLITZER: How many detainees, prisoners, when you were commanding the forces in northern Iraq, right from the start, how many did you have under your authority?

PETRAEUS: Well, I think over the course of the nine or 10 months that we were in northern Iraq, there certainly were more than 1,000 that we actually brought in for questioning. Some of them would then be immediately let go. Others would be questioned at a brigade level facility and then either let go or sent to the division level facility, same process there. And then they would be sent on to Abu Ghraib if we determined that they were individuals that were serious bad guys that needed to be interrogated further or needed to be incarcerated for a long period of time.

BLITZER: Did your soldiers have the information they needed, what was allowed, what wasn't allowed as far as the Geneva Conventions, the rules of the game as far as prisoners are concerned? Did they know how far they could go in questioning prisoners, for example?

PETRAEUS: Yes, they did. They did, Wolf.

Every now and then, though, we did have to remind folks what the limits were, frankly. This is combat out there. There are people that are doing horrible things to our soldiers. And, again, the chain of command has to be actively involved to make sure that those limits are observed.

BLITZER: You know the situation in Iraq very, very well. You worked over there for a long period of time. In your opinion, how much damage has been done to winning over the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people by these brutal pictures?

PETRAEUS: Well, clearly, it's a setback. And it creates new challenges for our soldiers.

We talked a lot about working very hard not only to gain the support of the people, if you will, but to retain the consent of the people. And this makes that more challenging, without question. And we will just have to redouble our efforts to demonstrate the reasons we're there, which is on behalf of the Iraqi people, having given freedom to them.

BLITZER: Was there a problem, a sort of built-in problem that these M.P.s were reservists? They were coming in. They really weren't trained to be prison guards. They were trained for all sorts of other things. And they just got sort of thrown into that, given the shortfall of manpower, if you will.

PETRAEUS: Wolf, I really don't know that one. I never went to Abu Ghraib. We really just sent our detainees there and, frankly, dropped them off with the information about what they had done and why we recommended that they be held longer or interrogated and so forth. And I actually don't know the answer to that one.

BLITZER: By almost all accounts, General Petraeus, you did an outstanding job in the north winning over support from local Iraqis. Was that largely because you were dealing with an inherently more sympathetic group of Iraqi, namely Kurds?

PETRAEUS: No, well, that's a bit of a -- a tiny bit of a myth, I think. We did have the three Kurdish provinces in our area but the largest province of all, is Nineveh Province, is by far a Sunni Arab majority, which was a source for years of large numbers of governmental officials and a huge number of Army officers.

There were, as an example, 1,100 former generals in Mosul alone. Mosul is the second largest city in Iraq, the capital of Nineveh, again, well over 10 percent of the population. And that was where we spent the majority of our effort with largely an economy of force up in the three Kurdish areas, which generally did quite well by themselves, which we helped with projects but didn't need to do too much more.

There was great potential for real problems up in the Mosul area. There had been considerable unrest before we arrived there. We were very fortunate to get very good Iraqi partners early on. So they literally helped us carry the rucksack, helped us carry load. And we could very quickly start to turn to them and say, Governor, you have got a problem, as opposed to everyone coming to us and say, we have a problem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: General David Petraeus speaking with me earlier today. And you can see the entire interview with the general Sunday on "LATE EDITION," starting at noon Eastern, 9:00 a.m. Pacific.

A timely endorsement today for the presumptive Democratic nominee, as John Kerry gets the backing of a major national organization. We'll take you live to the campaign trail.

Also ahead:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I'm Carlos Watson. Join me on "The Inside Edge" as I tell you about a potentially very big move on the part of the Kerry campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And a royal union. Danes line the streets as their prince weds in a fairy tale fashion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Both President Bush and Senator John Kerry are on the campaign stump today.

First stop for the president, a fund-raiser in Saint Louis, the Saint Louis suburb where he vowed to win Missouri just like he did four years ago. Later, he touted his faith-based plan to aid religious charities during the commencement address at Concordia University. That's a Lutheran college in suburban Milwaukee. It's his second visit the in a week to the battleground state of Wisconsin.

John Kerry is here in Washington, where he picked up the endorsement of the International Brotherhood Of Police Officers. This is the same union that backed the president, President Bush, only four years ago. The union president says the group is switching sides because members are disappointed with Bush and the country needs to elect a president with what he calls -- and I'm quoting now -- "a real record of supporting police officers."

Time now to check in with our CNN political analyst, Carlos Watson. He has "The Inside Edge" on the campaign today, what we might see next.

This has been a pretty tough week for the president, Carlos.

WATSON: Very tough, new polls coming out, not only our own, but another poll as well, that has the president down by five points, fairly significant.

But a couple of things stood out, Wolf, as I thought about the poll. One is that all that's been going on in Iraq has not only dragged down his numbers there, but his numbers of how people think about him on the economy and how they even think about him on terrorism. And remember, it was the White House after all who wanted to say the war on terror and the war in Iraq were part of the same. And that may be a strategy that comes back to bite them a little bit.

Two other interesting things to think about when you think about that poll. Republican women, so far the people who are leaving the president at the moment don't include his base, mainly independents and Democrats. But the question in the weeks ahead, will Republican women as new photos come out, the court-martialing hearings, etcetera, will they potentially leave him?

The other interesting question is, will Congress assert a much more substantive role in terms of policy-making? You saw the president sat down with a number of Republican lawmakers this week. Will they finally say, you are not steering the ship in the right direction, and not just on politics, but on policy, we need to have a bigger say? A lot of tough news for the president this week.

BLITZER: So where does this leave John Kerry?

WATSON: You know, John Kerry can't quite say that this happened because of me, that I have kind of created my own destiny. Instead, he has got to say that circumstances, policy, if you will, have trumped politics, and that it's not him who leads the president, but in fact it's the president who is hurting himself.

He still has to do something significant. He still has to introduce a brand. You and I have talked about the need to lay out specific plans, to become more personable. But above all of that, in the same way that George Bush, you will recall, for years ago, said, I'm a compassionate conservative and people knew who he was -- and whether or not you agreed fully with it, you had a context for it -- John Kerry has got to do that.

Maybe the right brand will be fighting Democrat, for example, the fight to suggest a much tougher Democrat than sometimes you have seen, and the Democrat part of it obviously pointing out health care, education, etcetera. Steve Jobs, by the way, the former Apple founder, has just signed on as an informal adviser. Who is better at coming up with a new brand, if you will, than Steve Jobs? Maybe there will be some help there.

BLITZER: A good adviser for John Kerry.

We have spent so much time focusing in on the prison abuse scandal, Iraq, other related issues. There are some other big issues that are out there, though.

WATSON: I think at least two.

I think gay marriage. You know that in Massachusetts on Monday they are going to begin handing out licenses. And there also was a ruling that seemed to suggest that not only Massachusetts residents but maybe residents from other states may be able to come into the state and ultimately get licenses. I think that this issue will not be as big a national issue as it was going to be, in part because I think it will be obscured by all that will go on next week.

But don't forget, it could end up on the ballots of at least 15 states as an initiative, including states like Oregon, Ohio, and even Missouri. The second thing, and we haven't talked about it yet, inflation. Right, we've talked about jobs, jobs, jobs in terms of the economy. But when you see the consumer price index go up for two months in a row and people start to look at gas prices and we can't forget that summer is coming, could be a lot of people who say that, while I have a job, it's getting tougher to spend the money I'm making.

So the president, it's a tough week on a lot of fronts and could be some tough times still ahead.

BLITZER: All right, I'm sure we'll cover all of them. Carlos, thanks very much.

People who want to read the column, where do they go?

WATSON: Best place to go to CNN.com/Carlos. We continue our veepstakes. And next week, Wolf, is the one I think they will want to tune in to.

BLITZER: All right, Carlos, we'll be tuning in.

WATSON: Good to see you.

BLITZER: Thanks very much.

The prince and the commoner. Romance blossoms into a royal wedding. We'll get to that. You will want to see it.

First, though, let's take a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Heavy fighting erupted between Israeli forces and Palestinian gunmen in Gaza. A Palestinian militant group says it killed two Israeli soldiers and Palestinian sources say one Palestinian was killed. It happened as Israeli bulldozers demolished houses near where five soldiers were killed this week.

Violence in Nigeria. More fighting between Muslims and Christians has broken out in northern Nigeria. Scores of people, mostly Christians, have been killed by Muslim mobs since Tuesday in a reprisal for the killing of Muslims in the central part of the country 10 days ago. Security forces have been deployed across the country in a bid to prevent the violence from spreading.

Outrage. Cuban President Fidel Castro denounced President Bush during a massive anti-American protest in Havana. Declaring that he's ready to die for his people, Mr. Castro accused President Bush of fighting wars of conquest to seize the markets and resources of the world. The demonstration was in response to protest measures announced by the Bush administration last week to tighten the U.S. embargo on Cuba.

Impeachment overturned. South Korea's constitutional court has reinstated the impeached President Roh Moo-hyun. The move comes two months after the president was impeached on corruption charges. The court ruled that while some violations occurred, they were not serious enough to warrant impeachment.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: There was a wedding in Denmark today. That normally wouldn't be newsworthy, but the groom at this particular wedding was Denmark's crown prince.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): She was an Australian real estate agent and a marketing executive, the daughter of a mathematics professor. He was a member of the Danish sailing team in Australia for the 2000 Olympics. When they met at a Sydney bar called the Slip In, she knew he was charming, but she didn't know he was a prince.

Four years later, 21st century romance met the 1,000-year traditions of Europe's oldest monarchy, as Denmark's Crown Prince Frederik married commoner Mary Donaldson at a lavish ceremony in a Copenhagen cathedral. The 35-year-old prince placed the ring on the finger of his 32-year-old princess in front of kings, queens and honored guests. And when the couple emerged from the cathedral to share a public kiss, thousands of excited well-wishers cheered.

A two-mile wedding procession followed, allowing thousands of additional spectators to catch a glimpse of the heir to the Danish thrown and the first Australian woman ever to marry into royalty. It's been called a fairy tale romance, will Prince Frederik and Princess Mary live happily ever after? The bishop of Copenhagen who performed the ceremony warned that nothing in the real world is as simple as a fairy tale.

But as rays of sunlight broke through dark clouds over the wedding procession, those were concerns for another day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: By the way, if there's something about this story that sounds vaguely familiar, you have probably been to the movies eventually. "The Prince and Me" starred Julia Stiles as a commoner who falls in love with a college student who turns out to be a prince of Denmark.

Rewarding those who play with fire. After the break, our picture of the day honors an ancient Polynesian custom.

Plus, our "Web Question of the Day" is this: In the wake of Abu Ghraib, can the U.S. still win the hearts and minds of Iraqis? You can vote right now, CNN.com/Wolf. We'll have the results when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Playing with fire and knives, it's our picture of the day.

Look at this. Competitors from around the south Pacific and the U.S. mainland are in Hawaii for the World Fire Knife Championship. Fire knife dancing originated in American Samoa and has groan in popularity since this competition started a dozen years ago. As many tourists can attest, fire knife dancing is now a fixture at Hawaiian luaus.

Here's how you're weighing in our "Web Question of the Day." Remember, we've been asking you this question: In the wake of Abu Ghraib, can the U.S. still win the hearts and minds of Iraqis? Look at this: 28 percent of you say; 72 percent of you say no. As always, we remind you, this is not a scientific poll. By the way, you can continue to vote on our Web site, CNN.com/Wolf. A reminder, you can always catch WOLF BLITZER REPORTS weekdays 5:00 p.m. Eastern. I'll see you again this Sunday noon Eastern for "LATE EDITION," the last word in Sunday talk. Among my guests, I'll speak with the independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader.

I'm off to give the commencement address tomorrow at Saint Louis University.

Want to say goodbye to Carrie Hayes (ph), my longtime producer. She was great. She's moving on to bigger and better, but she's always going to welcome back here. Carrie Hayes, we'll miss you.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 14, 2004 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. We're getting a new CNN/"TIME" magazine poll on the battle between George Bush and John Kerry. One of these candidates will find the numbers very disturbing.
Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

Abu Ghraib. As hundreds of prisoners reach the outside, a U.S. soldiers tells the inside story of abuse. But what's his motive?

Battleground on sacred ground. Slugging it out in a Shiite holy city.

A new low? I'll ask the man who's seen it all, from the Vietnam War through scandals in Washington, veteran journalist Bob Schieffer.

Glass slipper. She met her prince in a bar. Now she's in line to become queen of Denmark.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Friday, May 14, 2004.

BLITZER: We're learning about major changes in the way U.S. forces can interrogate prisoners in Iraq. That news comes as another American soldier now faces court-martial arraignment next week for alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

Our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, is joining us now live with details -- Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf -- Wolf, the situation here is that two different pictures are emerging about how high approval for some of this abuse might have come at the Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad from two different soldiers, both accused of wrongdoing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over) The attorney for one of the accused ringleaders of the abuse, Specialist Charles Graner, says this photo shows not just Graner and two other military police but also four enlisted men from military intelligence, along with a civilian translator.

Graner insists higher ups were well aware of the cooperation between the prison guards and interrogators and the methods they used to soften prisoners up. GUY WOMACK, GRANER'S ATTORNEY: This was an interrogation center. He was being directed by military intelligence officers and others in the intel community. And he felt these were lawful orders. He had to obey those orders.

MCINTYRE: But another accused soldier, Specialist Jeremy Sivits, who has agreed to plea guilty and testify against the other six, says senior enlisted and officers were unaware of the mistreatment.

"Our command would have slammed us," Sivits told investigators in a sworn statement. "They believe in doing the right thing. If they saw what was going on, there would be hell to pay."

Sivits says it was Graner who ordered Iraqis to strip in Arabic and forced them into the pyramid of naked bodies.

Sivits' statement also details abuse that went beyond humiliation. In one case he says Graner punched the detainee with a closed first so hard in the temple that the detainee was knocked unconscious.

In another case, Sivits says Sergeant Javal Davis, another accused soldier, stomped on either the fingers or toes of the detainees, causing them to scream loudly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: And just today, the Pentagon revealed that the rules of engagement for interrogation that it listed a number of controversial procedures, remember you might have seen this, was provided to members of Congress, that included things such as sleep deprivation and sensory deprivation and stress positions.

Those have all been eliminated now from the possible techniques that interrogators can use.

But the Pentagon makes the point that none of these techniques, which all required special approval, had actually been implemented in Iraq. In fact, there had been no requests to use any of these on any of the detainees in Iraq -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Do these new rules, Jamie, apply only in Iraq or Guantanamo Bay or elsewhere?

MCINTYRE: These are only in Iraq, issued by Lieutenant General Sanchez after the controversy about some of these positions.

They looked at them and they said, "You know, we're not using any of those techniques. Let's just take them off the table so they won't be a source of controversy anymore."

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Jamie, thanks very much.

Hundreds of Iraqi detainees were freed from the Abu Ghraib prison today. It's the first mass prisoner release since the abuse photos surfaced, coming just a day after the visit by the defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld.

CNN's Ben Wedeman reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Out of prison, and on their way home.

Five buses left Abu Ghraib Friday morning, taking around 300 former detainees away from a prison that, under Saddam Hussein, was spoken of only in whispers. And under U.S. control has become, for many Iraqis, symbolic of an American occupation gone sour.

A moment of joy for some; others saw no familiar faces smiling back. Sumir Ahmed (ph) was hoping his brother, in coalition custody for nearly a year would be released. He wasn't.

"My brother has six small kids," said Sumir (ph). "This is painful."

In Baghdad, Hussein Sami (ph) and his three brothers return home, months of anxiety finally over, though one of Hussein's brother is still a prisoner.

And inevitably there are claims of abuse.

"They stripped me," says one prisoner who didn't give his name. "They beat me and sprayed cold water on me."

Such claims have yet to be confirmed. But following widespread broadcast of graphic photos of prisoner abuse, few Iraqis are likely to dispute them.

(on camera) The recent Red Cross report on Iraq estimates that anywhere between 70 and 90 percent of detainees were arrested by mistake. But there's no mistaking that among those who were released today the coalition has created new enemies at a time when it hardly needs anymore.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, outside Abu Ghraib prison.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: In Najaf, U.S. troops fought pitched battles with the militia of a radical cleric, even as an aide to Iraq's Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani urged both sides to stop fighting and pull out of the Shiite holy city.

CNN's Jane Arraf reports from the scene of the clashes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was supposed to be a day for a peaceful protest, hundreds of thousands of residents in Najaf coming out to demonstrate that they wanted peace and an end to militias. Instead there was violence. Members of the Mehdi militia attacked a main police station, secured just the previous night by U.S. tanks and troops to welcome a new (UNINTELLIGIBLE). They hit it with gunfire, rocket propelled grenades, and U.S. forces fired back.

There and on the edge of the holy city, the cemetery around the holy shrines where U.S. troops, they say, for the first time went on to the cemetery to face people ambushing them. They say they killed more than a dozen suspected militia members, captured almost as many.

They did retreat from the cemetery, but U.S. officials here say that if they are attacked they will go where they need to. At the same time they are trying to get a political solution. But with the ongoing violence and ongoing attacks against U.S. Forces in Najaf, Karbala and other places, a solution doesn't seem imminent.

Jane Arraf, CNN, reporting from Najaf.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question of the day is this: "In the wake of Abu Ghraib, can the U.S. still win the hearts and minds of Iraqis?" You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/Wolf. We'll have the results a little bit later in this broadcast.

While you're there, though, I would love to hear directly from you. Send me your comments any time. I'll try to read some of them on the air each day at the end of this program. That's also where you can read my daily on line column, CNN.com/Wolf.

Prisoner abuse and continued fighting in Iraq appear to be taking a toll on President Bush, according to the latest CNN/"TIME" magazine poll. Here with the details, our senior political analyst Bill Schneider.

Bill, how's the president doing on this and other issues?

BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, Wolf, the results of our CNN/"TIME" poll are just in, and what they show is trouble for President Bush.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): In the past, the president has gotten very high marks for his handling of terrorism, low marks on the economy, with Iraq, somewhere in between.

Now, despite continuing job gains, the number who think the president is doing a good job on the economy has dipped below 40 percent for the first time. Fifty-fives percent say he's doing a poor job on the economy.

His rating on Iraq is just as bad. That's taken a real tumble. The public is now split over whether the U.S. was right or wrong to go to war in Iraq. The big shock has to be terrorism, always the president's strong suit. The public has now split over whether President Bush is doing a good job or a poor job on terrorism. That's serious political trouble.

Meanwhile, John Kerry is gaining on President Bush. When asked, who would do a better job on terrorism, Kerry is nearly equal to Bush. Kerry 42, Bush 49. And that's Bush's best issue.

Moral values? Bush is ahead by only four points. Another Bush strength, nearly gone.

Kerry's in the lead on health care, environment, jobs, taxes. That's right, voters prefer Kerry to Bush on taxes.

And asked who would do a better job handling the issue of gay marriage, the result is a tie. Bush 39, Kerry 39. They both oppose gay marriage, but President Bush's endorsement of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage doesn't seem to have given him an advantage.

Where does the presidential race stand? Kerry 51, Bush 46 among likely voters, within the margin of error statistically. But this is the first time we've ever seen a majority of voters saying they'd vote for Kerry.

What happens if we include Ralph Nader as a third choice? Nothing. Still Kerry over Bush by five, with Kerry just shy of a majority.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: President Bush has had a bad few weeks, and the poll reflects that on all fronts, even the economy.

BLITZER: I was surprised that Ralph Nader factor. He seems to be taking votes from both sides, the going conventional wisdom is he would take most votes from John Kerry.

SCHNEIDER: What that suggests is the Democratic vote is holding together, just as it held together remarkably well in the primaries, refusing to go with Howard Dean, solidifying behind John Kerry.

Right now it's still very strong. I think President Bush has done that to the Democrats. They are holding together, and even the temptation to vote to Ralph Nader isn't getting many Democrats to defect.

BLITZER: Yet, still six percent nationally. That's significant. He could be a factor when all is said and done. We'll have to wait and see.

Bill Schneider, thanks very much.

Ralph Nader will be among my guests Sunday on CNN's "LATE EDITION." Mourning and continued questions surrounding the beheading of Nick Berg. Now the Justice Department weighs in on possible ties for terrorism.

The race for the White House. I'll talk about that and more with veteran CBS journalist Bob Schieffer.

Plus, a real life fairy tale culminates in a really royal wedding.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Anti-American outrage in Havana. Fidel Castro leads a cast of hundreds of thousands and vows to die for Cuba. Coming up, find out what triggered this massive demonstration.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Nick Berg, the Pennsylvania man beheaded by terrorists in Iraq, has been laid to rest. But there are still questions surrounding his final weeks.

Tom Foreman is here. He's following the story for us -- Tom.

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, very hard questions are still being asked about exactly why Nick Berg was kept in Iraq as the situation there grew more and more dangerous, and who was keeping him there?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN (voice-over): Near Philadelphia, Nick Berg's family held a memorial service today as U.S. officials hunted for his killers.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: We take the murder of American citizens very seriously.

FOREMAN: Condolences are piling up on this memorial web site. The victim's family, however, is accusing the U.S. government of contributing to his death by holding him in Iraq long after he intended to leave.

According to the family, when Berg entered Iraq in early March, he planned to come home at month's end. Iraqi police, however, picked him up at a roadblock on March 24, and he was jailed for two weeks. He told another American businessman all about it.

ANDREW ROBERT DUKE, U.S. BUSINESSMAN IN IRAQ: He though it was -- it was crazy that he had been detained, and he couldn't understand why it had taken so long for him to be released.

FOREMAN: But who was holding him? Iraqi police sources say they gave Berg to American soldiers an hour after his arrest.

Berg's family received e-mails from consular officer Beth Pane which said, "I have confirmed your son, Nick, is being detained by the U.S. military."

Coalition spokesman Dan Senor, however, insists the Iraqis had him the whole time, even when the FBI questioned Berg.

DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: I think some of the confusion emanates from the fact that at a number of the Iraqi detention facilities throughout the country, there are American M.P.'s who play a support role there, but it doesn't detract from the fact it's still an Iraqi facility.

FOREMAN: Berg's family suggests all this matters because while Berg was locked up, violence was growing. Other inmates were learning that he was Jewish, and his ability to escape the country was deteriorating.

JONATHAN TURLEY, GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY: There does seem to be a plausible case of negligence here. The fact that a U.S. citizen was released into -- what became a combat zone does raise serious questions of judgment.

FOREMAN: Government officials insist they told Berg to leave, offered him a plane out and that he refused. The vice president, meanwhile, told a Jewish group in Florida...

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATS: The event murder of Nicholas Berg, like the murder of Daniel Pearl in 2002, is a reminder that there are evil people in the world capable of any atrocity and determined to take innocent life.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOREMAN: Of course, nothing is going to bring Nicholas Berg back to his family, a brother, a son of these people, but they're pressing forward for these questions a very simple reason. They believe if they keep pressing, maybe they can get some answers about his final hours, what happened to him.

And I think until those answers come, they're not going to quit asking the questions.

BLITZER: These are grieving parents. You've got to understand what they're going through.

FOREMAN: They are.

BLITZER: It's impossible to do it, but we'll try.

Thanks very much, Tom Foreman.

The war in Iraq and the race for the White House. Veteran CBS journalist Bob Schieffer weighs in on those stories and more.

The hand-over of power in Iraq just weeks away. I'll speak with the U.S. general in charge of training for Iraqi forces.

Plus, what's next in the presidential campaign? CNN's Carlos Watson, he'll join us live with the inside edge.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Veteran CBS journalist Bob Schieffer, who covered the Vietnam War, knows firsthand how combat can push troops over the edge. But when it comes to the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal, he's adamant that those guilty must be punished.

That said, he places the blame for what happened on several factors. I spoke with him about all of this just a short while ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Bob Schieffer, thanks very much for joining us. There are many critics of the media, conservative, especially, who say we should have never published these photos of the prisoner abuse of the Abu Ghraib prison.

Should we have published them?

BOB SCHIEFFER, CBS NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think we had no choice but to do it, Wolf.

And you know, the Army was moving on this thing. Yes, they had had an investigation. Yes, as they say, they were investigating what ought to be done.

But what I find striking is that two months after the investigation was complete, here you had the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, General Richard Myers, who I consider a patriotic American and a good soldier, come on face the nation and say he had not yet read the report, that it was still working its way up the chain of command.

I believe the military was investigating, but they did not seem to take any action until -- until this thing broke in the press. And so I think we had no choice but to do that. And I think in the end, it will be for the greater good.

Because the main thing, we talked a lot, Wolf, about the impact this is going to have on the Arab world. But the main problem here is these were procedures that we cannot have. We cannot run our Army this way.

When you have -- sending people into combat that are ill trained, ill equipped and unprepared for what they're going to find there, you're going to have a disaster. That's a recipe for disaster.

And maybe, not for what the impact is on the Arab world. But for our own good, maybe we can get this thing cleaned up, because we have to.

BLITZER: Well, now that those pictures have been released and everybody in the world basically has seen them, does it serve any useful purpose to go ahead and broadcast or publish the remaining pictures that members of the House and Senate have seen but the public has not yet had access to?

SCHNEIDER: Personally, I do not want to see these pictures. I've seen enough of this.

The one thing that does worry me is that, if they are not released, can we be assured in some way that action is going to be taken and that we move to clean this thing up? That's the part that worries me.

It seems to me that the military was moving very slowly, as I said, until this became public. So for that reason that would, in my view, be the only reason to release them.

As far as publishing them so we can put them on television or I can see them, I'm not going to look at them, probably, anyway. So I think that would be the only reason.

If I have assurance that the Congress is on top of this, and is moving to correct it, it's fine with me if they keep them secret.

BLITZER: Let me read for you from your May 9 column. You write, "What the prison guards in Iraq did was indefensible. They must be punished, but the ultimate responsibility for what happened rests with those who sent them into a war zone untrained and unprepared. There's the crime."

Who are you referring to?

SCHIEFFER: Well, I'm talking to people up the line. I'm talking to people who designed this plan.

Look, these kids -- most of them are reservists -- are sent in there. They have no training. They were trained as traffic cops. And suddenly they're put in this environment.

One thing that I learned in Vietnam, Wolf, is that war not only brings out the good in people, it brings out the worst at times in people. Because human nature does have a dark side.

It is as important to teach these young people about the temptations that they will face in a war zone as it is to teach them to shoot straight.

They not only had no training, there was no chain of command. There was no mission statement. Nobody knew who was in charge. And when that happens, you're going to have problems. And as we now understand, in this case, very big problems.

BLITZER: Let me read to you what you wrote in your book, "This Just In: What I Couldn't Tell You on TV," referring to your days when you were covering the war in Vietnam.

You said this. You said, "In war we are separated from people we know and placed in an environment where people we care about back home will never know what we do. In a war zone it is easy to believe that the rules that we have lived by all our lives no longer apply." Do you think that was a situation in Iraq, as well?

SCHIEFFER: This is exactly what I am talking about. And there's the crime.

These people were not trained. Yes, indeed they need to be punished, but, Wolf, you have to design your training.

When you're sending people into a war zone -- this is an awful thing to say -- you don't design it and aim it at the smart people. They figure it out, generally. You have to aim it at those who might not figure it out. And -- and they have to be told in no uncertain terms. "This is what you do. This is what you don't do." They have to know who's in charge.

At one point during this thing, Wolf, they actually changed commanders there and didn't get around to telling the people that those -- that they were commanding that they had a new person in charge. Neither the people above that person and the person -- the people below them knew who was running things.

Somebody has to be responsible. And in this case, apparently, no one was.

You know, it's the old saying, when everyone is in charge, no one's in charge. These people didn't know who they reported to, and they did not know what it was they were supposed to be doing.

BLITZER: Bob Schieffer, as usual, thanks very much.

SCHIEFFER: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: President Bush says the June 30 deadline over handing power in Iraq over to the Iraqis is still very much a go. But when might U.S. troops leave? The chief U.S. administrator, Paul Bremer, hinting that could come sooner than some expect.

Outrage in Cuba. Fidel Castro says President Bush is fighting wars of conquest, as the streets of Havana flood in mass protest.

And look at this, a royal wedding. Hear what makes it a first for Denmark.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Could U.S. troops begin pulling out of Iraq soon? The top U.S. civilian in Iraq explains how that possibly could happen. That story coming up.

First, though, a quick check of the latest headlines.

The self-proclaimed leader of al Qaeda in Saudi Arabia says his forces are now coordinating attacks with militants in Iraq. The claims were made in an Internet magazine that was posted on several Islamist Web sites. Abdel Aziz Al Maqran (ph) is considered a terrorist by Saudi Arabia. He also claimed responsibility for an attack on foreign workers in Saudi Arabia this month that killed five people.

The Riggs Bank here in here Washington, D.C., was fined $25 million today in connection with a probe into money laundering and terrorist financing. The bank is also required to hire an outside consultant to review previous banking transactions for suspicious activity. Riggs agreed to accept the fines, but did not admit to wrongdoing.

New York state's attorney general says his state will recognize the marriages of same-sex couples from New York who are married in Massachusetts. On Monday, Massachusetts becomes the first state to make same-sex marriages legal.

The editor of the London "Daily Mirror" newspaper has stepped down after the paper conceded it published fake pictures of British soldiers abusing an Iraqi prisoner. "The Mirror" said it would be inappropriate for Piers Morgan to continue. The paper said it believed the pictures were genuine and that it had been -- quote -- "the subject of a calculated and malicious hoax."

President Bush today vowed to stick to a June 30 deadline for handing over power in Iraq. But aides were scrambling to clarify comments from the U.S. point man in Iraq, Ambassador Paul Bremer, about the future U.S. troop presence.

Let's go live to our White House correspondent Suzanne Malveaux -- Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, it really was a hypothetical question that was asked of U.S. Ambassador Paul Bremer whether or not the U.S. troops, coalition forces will remain inside Iraq, whether or not the Iraqis wanted it.

It really reflects the depth of the questions and the doubts on how this turnover of power is going to actually work, but U.S. officials say that they have been making some progress in trying to sort all of that out. The White House clearly engaged in this delicate balancing act, on the one hand ensuring security for the Iraqi people, on the other hand ensuring their independence as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: We don't stay in countries where we are not wanted. So if the provisional government, the interim government were to ask us to leave, we would leave. We don't stay where we're not wanted. I don't think that will happen because I think almost all Iraqis recognize, as we discussed earlier, the governor, that there's a real need to reconstruct the Iraqi security forces to make them capable of dealing with the threat from the Saddamists and terrorists. And we will not be at that point by June 30.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: Now, Bremer also said that under U.N. Security Council resolution 1511 that coalition forces could actually stay inside of Iraq, but U.S. officials made it very clear today, saying that there is no indication from the Iraqis themselves that they want those coalition forces to pull out any time soon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: I have no doubt that the interim Iraqi government will welcome the continued presence and operation of coalition military forces. So I'm losing absolutely no sleep thinking that they might ask us to leave during this interim period while we're building up their forces.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MALVEAUX: And, Wolf, the U.S. officials also say they hope with the new U.N. Security Council resolution it will allow this international umbrella for those forces, coalition forces, other troops from various countries to allow them to stay inside Iraq to help with the security efforts.

They do not believe, Wolf, that this is going to be an issue.

BLITZER: Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, thanks very much for that.

The U.S. Army commander who led the 101st Airborne Division in combat in Iraq is gearing up for another tough, but very different mission. Early next month, Major General David Petraeus goes back to Iraq to direct the training of local police and security forces in Iraq.

Earlier, I spoke with general Petraeus at Fort Campbell, Kentucky, home base of the famed Screaming Eagles.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: General Petraeus, thanks very much for joining us. I know you are heading off in the next few weeks back to Iraq for a new mission. We'll get to that momentarily.

But I want your thoughts. When you saw those horrific pictures of the prisoner abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison, as a soldier who has been involved in these matters for so many years, what went through your mind?

MAJ. GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, U.S. ARMY: Well, it was a shock, Wolf.

And I think Secretary Rumsfeld said it was like a punch to the gut. It takes the air out of you a bit and can really set you back. But, you know, at the end of that, you've got to do the same thing after any challenge in the battlefield over there. And that is an after-action review, make the changes necessary and drive on with the mission.

BLITZER: As a division commander, and you were the division commander for the 101st Airborne Division, the so-called Screaming Eagles, how do you know what is going on way down -- you are commanding thousands and thousands of soldiers.

PETRAEUS: Well, you've got a chain of command Wolf. And you have got to use it. And it has to be the extension of you.

In the north, for example, we had the assistant division commanders and I and others would make frequent visits to the detention facilities. And over time, we started inviting the ICRC in and the province council together with an imam and also other members of the local community. It was a good action force and mechanism for us, frankly, and it helped to keep things correct.

BLITZER: How many detainees, prisoners, when you were commanding the forces in northern Iraq, right from the start, how many did you have under your authority?

PETRAEUS: Well, I think over the course of the nine or 10 months that we were in northern Iraq, there certainly were more than 1,000 that we actually brought in for questioning. Some of them would then be immediately let go. Others would be questioned at a brigade level facility and then either let go or sent to the division level facility, same process there. And then they would be sent on to Abu Ghraib if we determined that they were individuals that were serious bad guys that needed to be interrogated further or needed to be incarcerated for a long period of time.

BLITZER: Did your soldiers have the information they needed, what was allowed, what wasn't allowed as far as the Geneva Conventions, the rules of the game as far as prisoners are concerned? Did they know how far they could go in questioning prisoners, for example?

PETRAEUS: Yes, they did. They did, Wolf.

Every now and then, though, we did have to remind folks what the limits were, frankly. This is combat out there. There are people that are doing horrible things to our soldiers. And, again, the chain of command has to be actively involved to make sure that those limits are observed.

BLITZER: You know the situation in Iraq very, very well. You worked over there for a long period of time. In your opinion, how much damage has been done to winning over the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people by these brutal pictures?

PETRAEUS: Well, clearly, it's a setback. And it creates new challenges for our soldiers.

We talked a lot about working very hard not only to gain the support of the people, if you will, but to retain the consent of the people. And this makes that more challenging, without question. And we will just have to redouble our efforts to demonstrate the reasons we're there, which is on behalf of the Iraqi people, having given freedom to them.

BLITZER: Was there a problem, a sort of built-in problem that these M.P.s were reservists? They were coming in. They really weren't trained to be prison guards. They were trained for all sorts of other things. And they just got sort of thrown into that, given the shortfall of manpower, if you will.

PETRAEUS: Wolf, I really don't know that one. I never went to Abu Ghraib. We really just sent our detainees there and, frankly, dropped them off with the information about what they had done and why we recommended that they be held longer or interrogated and so forth. And I actually don't know the answer to that one.

BLITZER: By almost all accounts, General Petraeus, you did an outstanding job in the north winning over support from local Iraqis. Was that largely because you were dealing with an inherently more sympathetic group of Iraqi, namely Kurds?

PETRAEUS: No, well, that's a bit of a -- a tiny bit of a myth, I think. We did have the three Kurdish provinces in our area but the largest province of all, is Nineveh Province, is by far a Sunni Arab majority, which was a source for years of large numbers of governmental officials and a huge number of Army officers.

There were, as an example, 1,100 former generals in Mosul alone. Mosul is the second largest city in Iraq, the capital of Nineveh, again, well over 10 percent of the population. And that was where we spent the majority of our effort with largely an economy of force up in the three Kurdish areas, which generally did quite well by themselves, which we helped with projects but didn't need to do too much more.

There was great potential for real problems up in the Mosul area. There had been considerable unrest before we arrived there. We were very fortunate to get very good Iraqi partners early on. So they literally helped us carry the rucksack, helped us carry load. And we could very quickly start to turn to them and say, Governor, you have got a problem, as opposed to everyone coming to us and say, we have a problem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: General David Petraeus speaking with me earlier today. And you can see the entire interview with the general Sunday on "LATE EDITION," starting at noon Eastern, 9:00 a.m. Pacific.

A timely endorsement today for the presumptive Democratic nominee, as John Kerry gets the backing of a major national organization. We'll take you live to the campaign trail.

Also ahead:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARLOS WATSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I'm Carlos Watson. Join me on "The Inside Edge" as I tell you about a potentially very big move on the part of the Kerry campaign.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: And a royal union. Danes line the streets as their prince weds in a fairy tale fashion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Both President Bush and Senator John Kerry are on the campaign stump today.

First stop for the president, a fund-raiser in Saint Louis, the Saint Louis suburb where he vowed to win Missouri just like he did four years ago. Later, he touted his faith-based plan to aid religious charities during the commencement address at Concordia University. That's a Lutheran college in suburban Milwaukee. It's his second visit the in a week to the battleground state of Wisconsin.

John Kerry is here in Washington, where he picked up the endorsement of the International Brotherhood Of Police Officers. This is the same union that backed the president, President Bush, only four years ago. The union president says the group is switching sides because members are disappointed with Bush and the country needs to elect a president with what he calls -- and I'm quoting now -- "a real record of supporting police officers."

Time now to check in with our CNN political analyst, Carlos Watson. He has "The Inside Edge" on the campaign today, what we might see next.

This has been a pretty tough week for the president, Carlos.

WATSON: Very tough, new polls coming out, not only our own, but another poll as well, that has the president down by five points, fairly significant.

But a couple of things stood out, Wolf, as I thought about the poll. One is that all that's been going on in Iraq has not only dragged down his numbers there, but his numbers of how people think about him on the economy and how they even think about him on terrorism. And remember, it was the White House after all who wanted to say the war on terror and the war in Iraq were part of the same. And that may be a strategy that comes back to bite them a little bit.

Two other interesting things to think about when you think about that poll. Republican women, so far the people who are leaving the president at the moment don't include his base, mainly independents and Democrats. But the question in the weeks ahead, will Republican women as new photos come out, the court-martialing hearings, etcetera, will they potentially leave him?

The other interesting question is, will Congress assert a much more substantive role in terms of policy-making? You saw the president sat down with a number of Republican lawmakers this week. Will they finally say, you are not steering the ship in the right direction, and not just on politics, but on policy, we need to have a bigger say? A lot of tough news for the president this week.

BLITZER: So where does this leave John Kerry?

WATSON: You know, John Kerry can't quite say that this happened because of me, that I have kind of created my own destiny. Instead, he has got to say that circumstances, policy, if you will, have trumped politics, and that it's not him who leads the president, but in fact it's the president who is hurting himself.

He still has to do something significant. He still has to introduce a brand. You and I have talked about the need to lay out specific plans, to become more personable. But above all of that, in the same way that George Bush, you will recall, for years ago, said, I'm a compassionate conservative and people knew who he was -- and whether or not you agreed fully with it, you had a context for it -- John Kerry has got to do that.

Maybe the right brand will be fighting Democrat, for example, the fight to suggest a much tougher Democrat than sometimes you have seen, and the Democrat part of it obviously pointing out health care, education, etcetera. Steve Jobs, by the way, the former Apple founder, has just signed on as an informal adviser. Who is better at coming up with a new brand, if you will, than Steve Jobs? Maybe there will be some help there.

BLITZER: A good adviser for John Kerry.

We have spent so much time focusing in on the prison abuse scandal, Iraq, other related issues. There are some other big issues that are out there, though.

WATSON: I think at least two.

I think gay marriage. You know that in Massachusetts on Monday they are going to begin handing out licenses. And there also was a ruling that seemed to suggest that not only Massachusetts residents but maybe residents from other states may be able to come into the state and ultimately get licenses. I think that this issue will not be as big a national issue as it was going to be, in part because I think it will be obscured by all that will go on next week.

But don't forget, it could end up on the ballots of at least 15 states as an initiative, including states like Oregon, Ohio, and even Missouri. The second thing, and we haven't talked about it yet, inflation. Right, we've talked about jobs, jobs, jobs in terms of the economy. But when you see the consumer price index go up for two months in a row and people start to look at gas prices and we can't forget that summer is coming, could be a lot of people who say that, while I have a job, it's getting tougher to spend the money I'm making.

So the president, it's a tough week on a lot of fronts and could be some tough times still ahead.

BLITZER: All right, I'm sure we'll cover all of them. Carlos, thanks very much.

People who want to read the column, where do they go?

WATSON: Best place to go to CNN.com/Carlos. We continue our veepstakes. And next week, Wolf, is the one I think they will want to tune in to.

BLITZER: All right, Carlos, we'll be tuning in.

WATSON: Good to see you.

BLITZER: Thanks very much.

The prince and the commoner. Romance blossoms into a royal wedding. We'll get to that. You will want to see it.

First, though, let's take a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Heavy fighting erupted between Israeli forces and Palestinian gunmen in Gaza. A Palestinian militant group says it killed two Israeli soldiers and Palestinian sources say one Palestinian was killed. It happened as Israeli bulldozers demolished houses near where five soldiers were killed this week.

Violence in Nigeria. More fighting between Muslims and Christians has broken out in northern Nigeria. Scores of people, mostly Christians, have been killed by Muslim mobs since Tuesday in a reprisal for the killing of Muslims in the central part of the country 10 days ago. Security forces have been deployed across the country in a bid to prevent the violence from spreading.

Outrage. Cuban President Fidel Castro denounced President Bush during a massive anti-American protest in Havana. Declaring that he's ready to die for his people, Mr. Castro accused President Bush of fighting wars of conquest to seize the markets and resources of the world. The demonstration was in response to protest measures announced by the Bush administration last week to tighten the U.S. embargo on Cuba.

Impeachment overturned. South Korea's constitutional court has reinstated the impeached President Roh Moo-hyun. The move comes two months after the president was impeached on corruption charges. The court ruled that while some violations occurred, they were not serious enough to warrant impeachment.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: There was a wedding in Denmark today. That normally wouldn't be newsworthy, but the groom at this particular wedding was Denmark's crown prince.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): She was an Australian real estate agent and a marketing executive, the daughter of a mathematics professor. He was a member of the Danish sailing team in Australia for the 2000 Olympics. When they met at a Sydney bar called the Slip In, she knew he was charming, but she didn't know he was a prince.

Four years later, 21st century romance met the 1,000-year traditions of Europe's oldest monarchy, as Denmark's Crown Prince Frederik married commoner Mary Donaldson at a lavish ceremony in a Copenhagen cathedral. The 35-year-old prince placed the ring on the finger of his 32-year-old princess in front of kings, queens and honored guests. And when the couple emerged from the cathedral to share a public kiss, thousands of excited well-wishers cheered.

A two-mile wedding procession followed, allowing thousands of additional spectators to catch a glimpse of the heir to the Danish thrown and the first Australian woman ever to marry into royalty. It's been called a fairy tale romance, will Prince Frederik and Princess Mary live happily ever after? The bishop of Copenhagen who performed the ceremony warned that nothing in the real world is as simple as a fairy tale.

But as rays of sunlight broke through dark clouds over the wedding procession, those were concerns for another day.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: By the way, if there's something about this story that sounds vaguely familiar, you have probably been to the movies eventually. "The Prince and Me" starred Julia Stiles as a commoner who falls in love with a college student who turns out to be a prince of Denmark.

Rewarding those who play with fire. After the break, our picture of the day honors an ancient Polynesian custom.

Plus, our "Web Question of the Day" is this: In the wake of Abu Ghraib, can the U.S. still win the hearts and minds of Iraqis? You can vote right now, CNN.com/Wolf. We'll have the results when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Playing with fire and knives, it's our picture of the day.

Look at this. Competitors from around the south Pacific and the U.S. mainland are in Hawaii for the World Fire Knife Championship. Fire knife dancing originated in American Samoa and has groan in popularity since this competition started a dozen years ago. As many tourists can attest, fire knife dancing is now a fixture at Hawaiian luaus.

Here's how you're weighing in our "Web Question of the Day." Remember, we've been asking you this question: In the wake of Abu Ghraib, can the U.S. still win the hearts and minds of Iraqis? Look at this: 28 percent of you say; 72 percent of you say no. As always, we remind you, this is not a scientific poll. By the way, you can continue to vote on our Web site, CNN.com/Wolf. A reminder, you can always catch WOLF BLITZER REPORTS weekdays 5:00 p.m. Eastern. I'll see you again this Sunday noon Eastern for "LATE EDITION," the last word in Sunday talk. Among my guests, I'll speak with the independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader.

I'm off to give the commencement address tomorrow at Saint Louis University.

Want to say goodbye to Carrie Hayes (ph), my longtime producer. She was great. She's moving on to bigger and better, but she's always going to welcome back here. Carrie Hayes, we'll miss you.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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