Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
Reagan Remembered; Did Shiite Militants Damage Their Own Shrine?
Aired June 07, 2004 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Reagan remembered. The final journey begins as the nation begins a final farewell.
REV. MICHAEL WENNING, BEL AIR PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH: He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more.
BLITZER: I'll speak with some who worked closely with him. But did anyone really know Ronald Reagan? We'll look at the Reagan mystery.
Mosque explosion. A deadly site. Did Shi'ite militants damage their own shrine?
Terror threat. A warning of new attacks. And a warning to Muslims -- stay out of the way.
ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Monday, June 7, 2004.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: A solemn procession under way right now in Southern California, to continue for the next 28 hours. Hundreds of people have already filed past the casket of Ronald Reagan, lining in repose at the presidential library, soon to lie in state under the Capitol Dome.
Right here in Washington, D.C., CNN's David Mattingly begins coverage from Simi Valley, California -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this is the first of five days of mourning for the passing of former President Ronald Reagan, a week of events that begins and ends right here.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice-over): The beginning of Ronald Reagan's long, final journey. Eight military pallbearers carried his flag-draped casket from a Santa Monica funeral home to a hearse. Nancy Reagan walked behind. The Reagan children, Michael, Patti and Ron, joined her in the motorcade for the 40-minute drive to Simi Valley and the Reagan Presidential Library. "Hail to the Chief" and "My Country 'tis of Thee" played as the Military Honor Guard placed the casket in the lobby. Then a brief service, led by Reverend Michael Wenning, retired senior pastor at Bel Air Presbyterian Church.
WENNING: I couldn't help to think of the love and outpouring that has begun in the nation for a great president, great world leader and a faithful servant of almighty God.
MATTINGLY: A short time later, the public was allowed inside to view the casket and pay respect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ronald Reagan was the first president I voted for. I had a lot of respect for him. I think he did a lot of good things for our country and the world. And I want my kids to know who he was.
MATTINGLY: Viewing will continue overnight until tomorrow evening at 6:00 Pacific time. Thousands of people are expected to file past between now and then.
Wednesday, Air Force One will fly Reagan's body to Washington, where he will lie in state at the Capitol Rotunda. Friday a state funeral for the 40th president, the first since Lyndon Johnson's in 1973.
Immediately following that, a final journey back to California and a private interment at the library at a spot Reagan picked out himself.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: A spot 45,000 to 60,000 people are expected to visit before the end of tomorrow evening, Wolf.
Let's take you now inside the library where we can show you what's going on right now. This is the scene, a continuous line of people filing past the flag-draped coffin inside. Some of these people camped out last night for the chance to be a part of this sad, but historic day -- Wolf.
BLITZER: David Mattingly in Simi Valley at the presidential library there. We'll continue to monitor what happens happening. Thanks, David, very much.
Paul Wolfowitz the deputy secretary of defense. He was President Reagan's ambassador to Indonesia. He also served as a senior official in the State Department under President Reagan. He's joining us now here in our Washington studio.
Thanks, Mr. Secretary, very much for joining us. Ronald Reagan had this ability to disarm even his critics. But what was it like to work for him?
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, he was a remarkable leader. And it's a life very, very well-lived. I had the privilege of working with him on a part of the world that people, I guess, thought didn't get his main attention. It was East Asia. And of course he's best known for what he did with the Soviet Union and ending the Cold War.
BLITZER: Did he always see East Asia, the Philippines or Indonesia within the prism of the Cold War?
WOLFOWITZ: No, I think he saw it as something much bigger than that. He saw, for one thing I think, it with a perspective of a Californian, someone who looked out to the Pacific as a new frontier.
It was a place that reflected his great optimism and great looking to the future. And I think they understood there were huge forces at work in East Asia.
I remember going with him to China in 1984 on a historic visit. I think it's the first official visit by a U.S. president to the People's Republic. Of course he had...
BLITZER: Right in the hotbed of communism.
WOLFOWITZ: Absolutely. And he had a lot of reservations about the nature of that system. But he also had a belief in the importance of building a positive relationship between the U.S. and China.
And he went there and he talked openly about the need for democratic reform and the need, in a polite and diplomatic way, but nonetheless it was clear.
BLITZER: Do you think he actually believed what he said when he said that the "evil empire" would eventually become part of the dust bin of history? Did he really believe all of that? Because it turned that way.
WOLFOWITZ: Well it's pretty stunning. When you look at the number of times he said it, if he didn't believe it he was certainly taking one heck of a chance.
No, I think he really did believe in it. I think he was right. It's in the nature of that system that it wasn't going to last forever. I don't know that he would have dared to predict it would collapse during his own time as president.
BLITZER: Well, like the current president, he was almost always underestimated by his critics. But he used that to his advantaging not only on international issues but on domestic issues, tax cuts across the board, certainly politically. You understood what was going on at the time or do you look back with hindsight and understand how he did it?
WOLFOWITZ: Well, first of all, even to this day I don't think he's underestimated by his critics. I mean I was struck very much working with him on the last years of the Marcos regime in the Philippines. And there was a tendency to say, Reagan only dislikes communist dictators. He's perfectly comfortable with right-wing dictators. Ferdinand Marcos is his close friend. This was the general line. And he was gracious with Marcos. He and Nancy visited the Philippines. They had Marcos here as a state visit.
But I remember one occasion when our ambassador to the Philippines came back and was explaining to Reagan how you really couldn't trust anything that Marcos said. Reagan, classic throwing back his head, he said, Well what was it Lord Acton? Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
He knew what was wrong with the system. He knew that Marcos ultimately -- in fact, Marcos left long before the Soviet Union collapsed. And in no small measure because Reagan laid out a notion the United States would support reform in the Philippines.
BLITZER: As we're looking at pictures of his body lying in repose at the presidential library, we'll continue to show our viewers these live pictures from California.
He helped rebuild the U.S. military in the '80s, after Vietnam, after the enormous setbacks of the '60s and '70s.
And when you look back, put on your academic hat for a moment, how significant was that in eventually resulting in the collapse of the Soviet Union?
WOLFOWITZ: I think very significant. I mean there's so many different factors that contribute it's hard to say.
But I remember being -- having a visit with Secretary Cheney in the Pentagon some 12 years ago by a young Russian who was a Democrat who was actually -- first ever I think movement of the Russian handicapped.
And as he was leaving Cheney's office he said he was going to California and he wanted to visit Ronald Reagan. The father of Perestroika, he called him. We said, well, we think we know what you mean. But why do you call Ronald Reagan the father of Perestroika?
And basically this young man laid out a theory which a lot of Russians believed, that the military buildup -- and not just SDI, but also the whole range of strengthening of American military forces -- said to the Russian military, you're not going to win this if you continue down the road of bankrupting your economy.
(CROSSTALK)
WOLFOWITZ: And so as this young man said, they realized they had to change and the more they changed, the more they had to change more and eventually things unraveled...
BLITZER: Unfortunately the last decade he's been suffering from Alzheimer's before he passed away. But if he could have understood what was happening in Iraq over the past year, year and a half, where do you think he would come down on that?
WOLFOWITZ: Well, let's go back to what you said. I mean, his greatest strength, I don't think, was that people underestimated him. His greatest strength was that he understood fundamental things about this country and about human nature.
And most of all I think he understood the power of the idea of freedom and that freedom is something that all men and women aspire to. And he was a supporter of freedom not just the Soviet Union but as I said in the Philippines, in Korea, in Chile.
I think he could have understood the importance of the idea of freedom...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: ... remember in the '80s, in '83, in '84, when the going got tough in Lebanon, he wanted freedom for the -- democracy for the Lebanese, as well.
But when the going got tough after 241 Marines were killed in that Marine barracks terrorist attack, he pulled out.
WOLFOWITZ: Well, we're in a different era. September 11 has changed everything. I think it would have changed it for Ronald Reagan.
We've gone from just being concerned with the freedom of other people in the Middle East to the threat to our own country from totalitarian regimes that support terrorism. And that's produced the same kind of, in the sense, marriage of interests that we just celebrated at Normandy where the opposition of fascism is also a chance to bring freedom to Japanese and Germans, as well as to our allies.
BLITZER: What's your understanding, how close is the administration to getting a new U.N. security council resolution passed?
WOLFOWITZ: I think we made enormous progress. This new Iraqi government is impressive. They really stepped up to the plate in an impressive way. The letter that Prime Minister Allawi has sent to the secretary-general of the U.N. that lays out his request for resolution that would support a multinational force in Iraq, I think, should make it, I would think, fairly straightforward now. Of course you always get into difficult negotiations but I would hope it would come soon.
BLITZER: One final question before I let you go. You were among those at the Pentagon who were supposedly close to Ahmed Chalabi. You see now the trouble he's in, the accusations that have been hurled against him. How serious are these accusations against someone who was once considered such a close ally in Iraq?
WOLFOWITZ: One of the urban legends around is that he was somehow the favorite of the Pentagon. He was one of many people whom we saw as credible opposition figures, Dr. Allawi is another one, two very distinguished Kurdish leaders, Mr. Albani (ph), Mr. Barzani. I think it needs to be the policy of the United States not to have favorites but to work with everybody.
BLITZER: So you don't see this rise and fall, if you will, of Ahmed Chalabi as a huge setback to you?
WOLFOWITZ: Certainly not that.
BLITZER: Paul Wolfowitz, thank you so much for joining us for a few minutes and talking about Ronald Reagan.
WOLFOWITZ: Thank you, it's an honor to be able to talk about this great man.
BLITZER: We'll continue this conversation.
Buses are running between the Reagan Library in Simi Valley, California and nearby Moore Park College where parking is available. CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is over at the college. She's joining us now live. Set the scene a little bit for us, Thelma. Tell us what's going on.
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolfe, I can tell you that there are thousands of people who are here. You mentioned that they are parking their cars. And then they will go through a very rigorous screening process by the Secret Service and then they will board the buses that you see right behind me there and make that five-mile journey on the way to the Reagan Library. We talked to mourners today, some who arrived at midnight and told us there was absolutely no way they'd miss an opportunity to pay tribute to the president.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wanted our son and our daughter to see him. You know, he was a very special man to both my wife and I. Changed the world really. It would be a completely different place if it wasn't for Ronald Reagan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A wonderful human being who you know cared about us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He brought honor back to the presidency. He is going to be remembered as the best.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUTIERREZ: We talked to one woman who told us that she was very touched by the president. She said that when she found out that he had suffered from Alzheimer's that she could identify with him because her mother suffered from the disease as well. She says that she could relate to all of the difficulties that a family faces over all of those years -- Wolf.
BLITZER: CNN's Thelma Gutierrez out at the Presidential Library as well, nearby, at least. Thanks, Thelma, very much. We'll be checking back with you throughout this hour. To our viewers, here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question is this, "did Ronald Reagan's presidency change the course of U.S. politics? You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have results a little bit later in this broadcast.
Our coverage of Ronald Reagan's life and death will continue. As mourners continue to file past the former president's casket at the Reagan Library in California, we'll explore Ronald Reagan's private side.
And they're making preparations for a state funeral right here in Washington, D.C. What authorities are doing to prevent a possible terror attack.
And a new warning attributed to al Qaeda. Is it safe to travel?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Looking at these live pictures, people coming, average people, to walk past the casket of Ronald Reagan, his body lying in repose at the Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California. Hundreds have already gone by, perhaps by the end of these 28 hours that are still slated for these people to stand and watch and think and reflect, thousands, thousands will have paid their last respects to the 40th president of the United States who died on Saturday at the age of 93. We'll continue to watch these developments. But there are other important news we want to report, as well, including this.
There's been an ominous new warning for America today attributed to followers of Osama bin Laden.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Two weeks after Attorney General John Ashcroft warned of a new possible attack on U.S. interests, two Islamic websites have posted a grim message. It declares that all compounds, bases and means of transport especially Western and American airlines, will be direct targets for what it called "coming operations in the near future."
The message warns Muslims not to mingle with westerners and to avoid using modes of transportation used by westerners. It is attributed to al Qaeda leaders in the Arabian peninsula and it criticizes Saudi Arabia's government for its ties with Washington.
Saudi Arabia has been a site in recent months of a number of attacks blamed on Islamic militants including a hostage standoff in Khobar late last month that ended in 22 deaths. Just this past weekend an attack in Riyadh killed an Irish journalist and wounded a British television reporter. The United States remains on a yellow terror alert, the midpoint on the five-level scale indicating there's a significant risk of terror attacks.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: Our homeland security correspondent Jeanne Meserve is quoting a spokeswoman for the department of homeland security as saying, and I'm quoting now, "there is no indication that al Qaeda is currently targeting airliners in the U.S." The official adds, "it is difficult to verify the authenticity of these statements posted on the web." The official also says this latest threat is consistent with other so-called chatter on the web about attacks against the United States and with al Qaeda's proven interest in airliners.
Security will be intense for the former President Ronald Reagan's state funeral here in Washington. Our congressional correspondent Joe Johns has been looking into that. He's joining us now with details -- Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, for security reasons, the United States Capitol has now closed within the last hour to tours and will not reopen until Saturday, as thousands of police officers mobilize for an event, the type of which has not been seen here in decades.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS (voice-over): Heavily armed police officers are already assuming their positions at points around the Capitol complex. More security is expected as a broad array of local and federal law enforcement prepare for the first full-blown series of events in the nation's capital, honoring the passing of a president since the death of Lyndon Johnson 30 years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The good part about this is I think we have been working on this plan for some time and this is not the first time we have had to do a state funeral.
JOHNS: The Reagan state funeral has been designated a national special security event on a par with the presidential inauguration or the national political conventions. Besides the increase in bomb- sniffing dogs and stepped up law enforcement presence it means canceled leave for large numbers of police. Law enforcement personnel from as far away as New York are being placed on standby to come to Washington if necessary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I need additional personnel after we finish our plan, I will take the liberty of bringing in some more officers from one of -- my New York field office.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS: Even with all of the security visitors will be allowed to file past the casket of the former president for the better than 24 hours, we are told. Of course, we're expecting tens of thousands of people here at the Capitol -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Joe Johns reporting from Capitol Hill where it's going to be intense over the next several days. Thanks, Joe, very much.
America beginning its final farewell to a favorite president. You're looking at these live pictures of the Reagan Library. Thousands of people lining up to pay their final respects to Ronald Reagan.
And an explosion ripping through a holy site in Iraq. Did a Shiite militia keep its munitions in the wrong place?
He shuffled his cabinet to keep his Gaza withdrawal plan alive. Now Israel's prime minister facing a no-confidence vote. All this ahead. First though a look at some stories you may have missed this past weekend.
World leaders and thousands of now-elderly veterans gathered in France for the 60th anniversary of the D-Day invasion of Normandy. The anniversary also was observed in the United States at the National D-Day Museum in New Orleans.
Swiss visit. 70,000 worshipers looked on as Pope John Paul II celebrated an outdoor mass capping a weekend visit to Switzerland. Although 84 and suffering from Parkinson's disease and other ailments, the pope says he has a duty to continue traveling.
Best of Broadway. Phylicia Rashad, best known for her long- running TV role as Bill Cosby's wife on "The Cosby Show" became the first African-American to win the Tony for best actress in a leading role. Rashad was honored for her performance in a revival of the 1960 drama "Raisin in the Sun." And that's our weekend snapshot.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Once again, these are live pictures of the Presidential Library, the Reagan Library, Simi Valley, California. Average Americans walking by, paying their last respects to the 40th president of the United States. We'll get back there shortly. Let's check some other news we're following right now.
Iraq, an explosion ripping through a mosque sending a pillar of smoke over the city of Kufa. Followers of the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr say a U.S. rocket hit the shrine but coalition officials say there was no military activity in the area at all and that the blast was caused by munitions stored in the mosque by the insurgents themselves. The explosion in Kufa came as Iraq's interim government announced a deal to disband a number of other militias and as world leaders prepare for a summit off the coast of Georgia which may, repeat, may, clear the way for a United Nations security council resolution on Iraq.
Joining us now our world affairs analyst, former defense secretary William Cohen. When I spoke to Secretary Powell yesterday he was upbeat. Secretary Wolfowitz just now was upbeat. They think they've got a deal that the European allies, France, Germany, Russia, China, that everyone could accept. Do you accept that?
WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: I believe that. I think this was a unique opportunity coming in to celebrate the 60th anniversary and to show that there's a great deal of commonality that remains notwithstanding some of the rhetoric that has gone back and forth over the Atlantic that the Europeans understand it's important that the U.S. and coalition forces prevail. Ultimately if we were unsuccessful all would suffer and I think that understanding is real and deep and I believe you'll see an agreement in the very near future.
BLITZER: Do you think that there's been a dramatic change on the part of the Bush administration in understanding the need for this greater international cooperation?
COHEN: I think the Bush administration in going to the United Nations, seeking Kofi Annan's support, being prepared to have the U.N. resolution provide the umbrella, so to speak, of authority, legitimacy over the operation to give it the international imprimatur was critically important. Without that I think the Europeans would be still reluctant.
BLITZER: But why are they so adamant, the Germans, and the French, in particular, to even consider the notion of helping out the coalition by deploying troops in Iraq?
COHEN: Well, they have made their past commitments. And the Germans, by way of example, even though Chancellor Schroeder has said that he would not send forces into Iraq, nonetheless, has indicated he would not stand in the way of a consensus developing for a NATO deployment to Iraq. It doesn't mean there will be an additional large number of European forces going into Iraq, what it does mean is they will lend support in various ways to facilitate the presence of the United States and coalition forces. I think it's very important.
BLITZER: You were a Republican senator during the eighties, during the Reagan presidency but you were also on that Iran-Contra investigation that at the end of his administration, his second term, almost completely up-ended it. Do you have a good sense, even at this moment, and you were privy to all the most sensitive information, whether Ronald Reagan himself ever understood that his people in his administration were trading arms for hostages?
COHEN: That remains unclear. From President Reagan's statements, he did not believe that they were actually engaged in a trade of arms for hostages. One of the great trademarks of the Reagan administration, President Reagan himself, was the ability to pick good people and then to delegate responsibility. And in that particular case that delegation turned out to be less than wise in some respects and it was unclear to this day whether President Reagan himself understood what was taking place in terms of the sale of the weapons, the inflation of the price of weapons and then the diversion of that surplus to the Iran -- Nicaragua...
BLITZER: Because as you well remember, there was an early meeting with the president, his vice president George Bush, the secretary of defense Casper Weinberg or the secretary of state George P. Shultz, they were all there supposedly discussing this.
COHEN: Well, as you know, there was a disagreement, at least an inconsistency, with the stated public policy of no trading with Iran. And then a covert program put together was -- Colonel North called it off-the-shelf, self-sustaining covert capability. Well, inconsistent with the Constitution, as far as we were concerned on Capitol Hill, but it was never really clear as to whether President Reagan fully appreciated what was taking place in terms of this effort.
BLITZER: Well, it was clear that his adamant refusal to consider some sort of a long-term deal with the Soviet Union helped end the Cold War sooner than probably would have been the case.
COHEN: No question about it. He'll be remembered as the -- peace through strength of going to the Soviet Union and saying that we're prepared to make deals on arms cuts. And that was important, also. There were arms cuts, but there were arms cuts, not simply arms control.
BLITZER: William Cohen, thanks very much.
COHEN: Sure.
BLITZER: Welcome back to the United States. I know you flew in overnight from Singapore.
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: Good to be here, Wolf.
BLITZER: Good to have you back.
Flowers and flags, prayers and praise, a nation mourning for the former President Ronald Reagan. Up next, I'll speak with his former assistant secretary of defense, Richard Perle.
Plus, the Reagan mystique. Many said he was a man of mystery and a private man masked by his public persona. We'll speak to some who knew him best.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Mourners continuing to file past Ronald Reagan's casket in Simi Valley at the presidential library. These are live pictures. The former president's body arrived at the library earlier today. It's been in a very, very emotional day for the entire Reagan family, including, of course, Mrs. Nancy Reagan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. MICHAEL WENNING, RETIRED SENIOR PASTOR, BEL AIR PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH: Our God is in our midst. and as we were in procession I couldn't help but think of the love and the outpouring that has begun in the nation for a great president, a great world leader and a faithful servant of almighty God."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casket down. WENNING: And finally, just a few verses from the last book of the Bible, which I share with you for your comfort as you begin this journey of remembrance.
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice from the throne saying, see, the dwelling of God is with people. He will dwell with them and God himself will be with them. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more. Neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
And may God bless his rich word to your hearts this day and every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And during the Reagan years, when the United States stared down the then-Soviet Union, Richard Perle was an assistant secretary of defense. He became perhaps best known as the administration's senior official on nuclear arms control negotiations with the then-Soviet Union.
Richard Perle is joining us now to take a look back at some of those dramatic developments from the Reagan presidency.
How much of a hands-on commander-in-chief president was he when you were negotiating these weapons deals with the old Soviets?
RICHARD PERLE, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: He was very much hands-on. The overall construct of the negotiations, the concept, the determination, not to sign agreements unless they were clearly in our interest, that was all Ronald Reagan. It wasn't any of the people who assisted him or advised him or worked for him.
BLITZER: When there were differences, as there always were and there anyway are in any administration, he seemed like the type that tried to work things out in a likable, nice kind of way. But give us a little bit of the flavor, how he dealt with those differences.
PERLE: Well, of course, all presidents want consensus among the people who advise them. But you can't always get it. And certainly there were differences in the advice that President Reagan was given.
But he was capable of decisively choosing alternative courses and that sometimes disappointed one Cabinet officer or another. But he knew how to handle them. They never went away angry.
BLITZER: Did he ever say to you, Richard, I think you're wrong; let's it do another way?
PERLE: Well, I was several layers below. So he never said that to me. But he certainly had to choose from time to time between the advice that was coming from the State Department and from the Department of Defense. It's rather like the situation today.
BLITZER: It's not all that different. Caspar Weinberger was your boss. There was the secretary of state, George P. Shultz at that time. And he had to make the final decisions when there were serious differences, as there often were.
During those days, Richard, as you remember it, the Soviets, the Cold War, did you really believe what Ronald Reagan was saying, all the optimistic talk that it was only a matter of time for the Soviet Union to go away?
PERLE: I certainly didn't believe it would happen as quickly as it did.
But the president did. He looked at the Soviet Union. He understood that the illegitimacy of the rule, the fact that people were governed not willingly, but subserviently, that led him to conclude that they were hollow and if they -- if we pushed, they would fall. And he was right. And almost no one agreed with him.
BLITZER: Even within the administration, they thought he was overly optimistic.
I want our viewers to know that we're looking at these live pictures from the Reagan Library in Simi Valley, California, where average people are lining up by the hundreds, the thousands to simply pay their respects.
As you look back on Ronald Reagan, and if he had to take a look at the current situation in Iraq right now, how do you think he would come down on it?
PERLE: I have no doubt that he would be steady. He would insist that we see this through to a successful conclusion.
BLITZER: But I asked the same question of Paul Wolfowitz, the current deputy secretary of defense. And I reminded him, he wasn't steady on Lebanon. After the U.S. Marines barracks were blown up and 241 U.S. Marines were killed, he pulled out.
PERLE: I think what happened in Lebanon is that we were there without a clear purpose. We were there to try stabilize things, but there wasn't a clear purpose. And so when we took that terrible, tragic loss, he looked around and he said, why are we there? And there wasn't a convincing answer.
But he would understand perfectly well why we are in Iraq today. And I have no doubt that he would not be pushed out of Iraq before completing the mission.
BLITZER: Has the administration, this administration, shared with you the information at least some of them seem to have on Ahmad Chalabi suggesting that he may have given some of the most sensitive secret information that the U.S. has to Iran?
PERLE: I believe that allegation against Dr. Chalabi is wrong and maliciously put forward by people who don't like him. And I think ultimately it will be shown to be wrong. The idea that Ahmad Chalabi, who has fought for the freedom of Iraqis, for a secular, democratic Iraq, would secretly be working for a theocratic dictatorship in Tehran is absurd.
BLITZER: If that's the case, this is one of the most monumental smears that I can remember, that U.S. officials participating in an allegation that he gave information involving -- code-breaking information, the crown jewels of the intelligence community -- to Iran.
PERLE: Well, I have not seen any official willing to be identified make that accusation. It's been put about by people who refuse to be identified, by former intelligence operatives. Officials with knowledge of the matter have only said that there are allegations and there's an investigation. It is a smear. And it's unlike any I've seen in 35 years in Washington.
BLITZER: Well, we'll see what happens.
Richard Perle, thanks for coming in, sharing few reflections on Ronald Reagan, the 40th president of the United States.
Thousands of people are coming to pay their respects to Ronald Reagan. We'll go back to Southern California and we'll hear what they're saying.
Plus, the Reagan mystique, the part of the president that few people really understood. We'll get to all of that.
First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Prime Minister airlines survived a no- confidence vote in the Israeli Parliament today. It came a day after Sharon's shuffled his Cabinet to win qualified approval of his Gaza withdrawal man.
A Saudi diplomat says gunmen connected to al Qaeda are to blame for killing a BBC cameraman and seriously wounding a senior correspondent Saturday. The pair were hit in a drive-by shooting in Riyadh.
The Olympic torch is now in South Korea. Runners carry the torch through the capital of Seoul today. It will pass through 33 cities on five continents before returning to Greece for the Summer Games in August.
And the Swiss have the best barbecue. More than 70 teams from a dozen countries grilled beef, pork, fish, even pineapple, to try and take the prize in the Barbecue World Championship in Germany over the weekend.
And that's our look around the world. (END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: The public viewing of former President Ronald Reagan continuing at his presidential library in Southern California. Those paying their respects first go to California's Moorpark Community College for a shuttle ride over to the library.
CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is at Moorpark. She's been talking to many of the mourners who are dropping by.
Thelma, what are they saying to you? I think -- Thelma, I don't know if you can hear me, but we're trying to understand...
GUTIERREZ: Wolf, the line continues to grow here. It's tough to tell from this vantage point, but thousands of people are gathered out here.
The line wraps around the college and it goes right through the parking lot. Security, in fact, is so tight, that the media and those who are broadcasting live are actually tethered to one area. And they're being kept away from all of those who have cleared the Secret Service security screening.
Now, we did talk to some mourners this morning. Some arrived at midnight. And they say not only do they want to be part of an historical event, but they also wanted to have an opportunity to say a final farewell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It means, one, the opportunity of a lifetime to pay respect to a great lead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't have to be around for that time of era to pay respect to somebody of that greatness.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he gave his speech that he was wouldn't be in the public anymore because of Alzheimer's, that touched my heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUTIERREZ: And one woman told us that she connected with the president because her mother had Alzheimer's as well.
And you can see all the folks who are standing in that line. They are making their way over to the buses. The buses will be moving continuously between the college and the library, which is five miles away. And, Wolf, it is a massive undertaking. Again, they're trying to move 2,000 people an hour. And we're told that they believe that 45,000 and 60,000 people will actually make their way up to the library -- back to you.
BLITZER: CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is over in Southern California at -- near the library over at Moorpark College. Thanks, Thelma, very much.
Let's take another live look at the presidential library in Simi Valley. There it is, people just walking by, continuing to pay their respects to Ronald Reagan.
He was called the great communicator, why many who knew Reagan say he was easy to like, but really almost impossible to fully understand.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: They're continuing to pay their respects, the body of Ronald Reagan lying in repose at the presidential library in Simi Valley, California, 2,000 people an hour scheduled, expected to go through.
The man known as the great communicator didn't communicate everything. Those who knew him best, even members of his own family, say there was always a part of Ronald Reagan that remained out of reach to them.
CNN's Brian Todd is here with me and he's joining us with more on that -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, with all of the memories that we're looking at of Ronald Reagan this week, we're still left with one void, many say a man who was personally unknowable.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): His own son once told a PBS interviewer:
RON REAGAN, SON OF PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: You're not going to figure him out. That's the first thing you need to know.
TODD: He espoused the importance of family, but, at various times, his children were estranged from him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We'll never have a real chatty, open, casual relationship.
TODD: He seemed the most affable, approachable of presidents in public. But the personal, private Ronald Reagan is the one we know the least. And some say, not even those closest to him could penetrate that veneer.
FRANK SESNO, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: Reagan kept to himself. He didn't even share certain things with his family.
TODD: His son Ron Reagan once said of his father, there was always that 10 percent of him that no one could get past. Aides who worked closely with him, reporters who covered him for years give similar accounts. To get at essence of the man, a true personality, was near impossible.
Some observers say because so much of his life, from his youth as a lifeguard through the Hollywood years to politics, was public, that he simply existed in that world, didn't pay attention to even having a private side. Others see the same emotional makeup as other larger- than-life presidents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Politicians, presidents, use people. And part of it is to guard themselves, their inner lives, from the knowledge of those around them, because it gives those around them an advantage. And presidents don't want them to have that advantage.
TODD: Almost to a person, observers agree, no one knew Ronald Reagan better than his wife. Daughter Patty once told a journalist that when the two of them were together, they sucked the oxygen out of the room. But some say there was still part of the man that Nancy Reagan herself could not tap into.
SESNO: Even she commented to me once. She said, he was not an analytical man. He was not an introspective man. I never could get him to talk about himself. That was his wife.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Still, the consensus is, Nancy Reagan did know him better than anyone else did. But because she was, as many say, his protector, she did play a role in keeping that private part of Ronald Reagan, Wolf, from public view. People say that was her right to do that, but it did add to the mystery.
BLITZER: CNN's Brian Todd adding to the mystery a little bit more -- thanks very much, Brian.
Remembering Ronald Reagan. CNN's coverage of the events leading up to Friday's state funeral here in Washington will continue.
And our "Web Question of the Day" is this: Did Ronald Reagan's presidency change the course of U.S. politics? You can vote right now at CNN.com/Wolf. That's the place. We'll have the results for you when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Here's you're weighing in on our "Web Question of the Day." Take a look at this. The question was: Did Ronald Reagan's presidency change the course of U.S. politics? Eighty-three percent of you said yes; 17 percent of you said no. Remember, this is not a scientific poll.
Let's get to some of your e-mail.
Barbara writes this: "Ronald Reagan was the greatest for all people. He had an astronomical talent to bring the world together. There was no religion or color. All were equal. He was everyone's president. And he had so much love for his country. My prayers are with the Reagan family and all Americans."
B.C. writes this: "Reagan was a decent and honest man, and we owe him for helping to end the Cold War. But many areas of his domestic and foreign policies were clearing lacking. To do his legacy justice, we must set emotions and partisan considerations aside in the interest of historical accuracy."
A reminder. We're on weekdays, 5:00 Eastern. Tomorrow at this time, I'll speak with Robert Gates, the former CIA director.
Until then, thanks for joining us. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 7, 2004 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Reagan remembered. The final journey begins as the nation begins a final farewell.
REV. MICHAEL WENNING, BEL AIR PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH: He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more.
BLITZER: I'll speak with some who worked closely with him. But did anyone really know Ronald Reagan? We'll look at the Reagan mystery.
Mosque explosion. A deadly site. Did Shi'ite militants damage their own shrine?
Terror threat. A warning of new attacks. And a warning to Muslims -- stay out of the way.
ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Monday, June 7, 2004.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: A solemn procession under way right now in Southern California, to continue for the next 28 hours. Hundreds of people have already filed past the casket of Ronald Reagan, lining in repose at the presidential library, soon to lie in state under the Capitol Dome.
Right here in Washington, D.C., CNN's David Mattingly begins coverage from Simi Valley, California -- David.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this is the first of five days of mourning for the passing of former President Ronald Reagan, a week of events that begins and ends right here.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice-over): The beginning of Ronald Reagan's long, final journey. Eight military pallbearers carried his flag-draped casket from a Santa Monica funeral home to a hearse. Nancy Reagan walked behind. The Reagan children, Michael, Patti and Ron, joined her in the motorcade for the 40-minute drive to Simi Valley and the Reagan Presidential Library. "Hail to the Chief" and "My Country 'tis of Thee" played as the Military Honor Guard placed the casket in the lobby. Then a brief service, led by Reverend Michael Wenning, retired senior pastor at Bel Air Presbyterian Church.
WENNING: I couldn't help to think of the love and outpouring that has begun in the nation for a great president, great world leader and a faithful servant of almighty God.
MATTINGLY: A short time later, the public was allowed inside to view the casket and pay respect.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ronald Reagan was the first president I voted for. I had a lot of respect for him. I think he did a lot of good things for our country and the world. And I want my kids to know who he was.
MATTINGLY: Viewing will continue overnight until tomorrow evening at 6:00 Pacific time. Thousands of people are expected to file past between now and then.
Wednesday, Air Force One will fly Reagan's body to Washington, where he will lie in state at the Capitol Rotunda. Friday a state funeral for the 40th president, the first since Lyndon Johnson's in 1973.
Immediately following that, a final journey back to California and a private interment at the library at a spot Reagan picked out himself.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: A spot 45,000 to 60,000 people are expected to visit before the end of tomorrow evening, Wolf.
Let's take you now inside the library where we can show you what's going on right now. This is the scene, a continuous line of people filing past the flag-draped coffin inside. Some of these people camped out last night for the chance to be a part of this sad, but historic day -- Wolf.
BLITZER: David Mattingly in Simi Valley at the presidential library there. We'll continue to monitor what happens happening. Thanks, David, very much.
Paul Wolfowitz the deputy secretary of defense. He was President Reagan's ambassador to Indonesia. He also served as a senior official in the State Department under President Reagan. He's joining us now here in our Washington studio.
Thanks, Mr. Secretary, very much for joining us. Ronald Reagan had this ability to disarm even his critics. But what was it like to work for him?
PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, he was a remarkable leader. And it's a life very, very well-lived. I had the privilege of working with him on a part of the world that people, I guess, thought didn't get his main attention. It was East Asia. And of course he's best known for what he did with the Soviet Union and ending the Cold War.
BLITZER: Did he always see East Asia, the Philippines or Indonesia within the prism of the Cold War?
WOLFOWITZ: No, I think he saw it as something much bigger than that. He saw, for one thing I think, it with a perspective of a Californian, someone who looked out to the Pacific as a new frontier.
It was a place that reflected his great optimism and great looking to the future. And I think they understood there were huge forces at work in East Asia.
I remember going with him to China in 1984 on a historic visit. I think it's the first official visit by a U.S. president to the People's Republic. Of course he had...
BLITZER: Right in the hotbed of communism.
WOLFOWITZ: Absolutely. And he had a lot of reservations about the nature of that system. But he also had a belief in the importance of building a positive relationship between the U.S. and China.
And he went there and he talked openly about the need for democratic reform and the need, in a polite and diplomatic way, but nonetheless it was clear.
BLITZER: Do you think he actually believed what he said when he said that the "evil empire" would eventually become part of the dust bin of history? Did he really believe all of that? Because it turned that way.
WOLFOWITZ: Well it's pretty stunning. When you look at the number of times he said it, if he didn't believe it he was certainly taking one heck of a chance.
No, I think he really did believe in it. I think he was right. It's in the nature of that system that it wasn't going to last forever. I don't know that he would have dared to predict it would collapse during his own time as president.
BLITZER: Well, like the current president, he was almost always underestimated by his critics. But he used that to his advantaging not only on international issues but on domestic issues, tax cuts across the board, certainly politically. You understood what was going on at the time or do you look back with hindsight and understand how he did it?
WOLFOWITZ: Well, first of all, even to this day I don't think he's underestimated by his critics. I mean I was struck very much working with him on the last years of the Marcos regime in the Philippines. And there was a tendency to say, Reagan only dislikes communist dictators. He's perfectly comfortable with right-wing dictators. Ferdinand Marcos is his close friend. This was the general line. And he was gracious with Marcos. He and Nancy visited the Philippines. They had Marcos here as a state visit.
But I remember one occasion when our ambassador to the Philippines came back and was explaining to Reagan how you really couldn't trust anything that Marcos said. Reagan, classic throwing back his head, he said, Well what was it Lord Acton? Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
He knew what was wrong with the system. He knew that Marcos ultimately -- in fact, Marcos left long before the Soviet Union collapsed. And in no small measure because Reagan laid out a notion the United States would support reform in the Philippines.
BLITZER: As we're looking at pictures of his body lying in repose at the presidential library, we'll continue to show our viewers these live pictures from California.
He helped rebuild the U.S. military in the '80s, after Vietnam, after the enormous setbacks of the '60s and '70s.
And when you look back, put on your academic hat for a moment, how significant was that in eventually resulting in the collapse of the Soviet Union?
WOLFOWITZ: I think very significant. I mean there's so many different factors that contribute it's hard to say.
But I remember being -- having a visit with Secretary Cheney in the Pentagon some 12 years ago by a young Russian who was a Democrat who was actually -- first ever I think movement of the Russian handicapped.
And as he was leaving Cheney's office he said he was going to California and he wanted to visit Ronald Reagan. The father of Perestroika, he called him. We said, well, we think we know what you mean. But why do you call Ronald Reagan the father of Perestroika?
And basically this young man laid out a theory which a lot of Russians believed, that the military buildup -- and not just SDI, but also the whole range of strengthening of American military forces -- said to the Russian military, you're not going to win this if you continue down the road of bankrupting your economy.
(CROSSTALK)
WOLFOWITZ: And so as this young man said, they realized they had to change and the more they changed, the more they had to change more and eventually things unraveled...
BLITZER: Unfortunately the last decade he's been suffering from Alzheimer's before he passed away. But if he could have understood what was happening in Iraq over the past year, year and a half, where do you think he would come down on that?
WOLFOWITZ: Well, let's go back to what you said. I mean, his greatest strength, I don't think, was that people underestimated him. His greatest strength was that he understood fundamental things about this country and about human nature.
And most of all I think he understood the power of the idea of freedom and that freedom is something that all men and women aspire to. And he was a supporter of freedom not just the Soviet Union but as I said in the Philippines, in Korea, in Chile.
I think he could have understood the importance of the idea of freedom...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: ... remember in the '80s, in '83, in '84, when the going got tough in Lebanon, he wanted freedom for the -- democracy for the Lebanese, as well.
But when the going got tough after 241 Marines were killed in that Marine barracks terrorist attack, he pulled out.
WOLFOWITZ: Well, we're in a different era. September 11 has changed everything. I think it would have changed it for Ronald Reagan.
We've gone from just being concerned with the freedom of other people in the Middle East to the threat to our own country from totalitarian regimes that support terrorism. And that's produced the same kind of, in the sense, marriage of interests that we just celebrated at Normandy where the opposition of fascism is also a chance to bring freedom to Japanese and Germans, as well as to our allies.
BLITZER: What's your understanding, how close is the administration to getting a new U.N. security council resolution passed?
WOLFOWITZ: I think we made enormous progress. This new Iraqi government is impressive. They really stepped up to the plate in an impressive way. The letter that Prime Minister Allawi has sent to the secretary-general of the U.N. that lays out his request for resolution that would support a multinational force in Iraq, I think, should make it, I would think, fairly straightforward now. Of course you always get into difficult negotiations but I would hope it would come soon.
BLITZER: One final question before I let you go. You were among those at the Pentagon who were supposedly close to Ahmed Chalabi. You see now the trouble he's in, the accusations that have been hurled against him. How serious are these accusations against someone who was once considered such a close ally in Iraq?
WOLFOWITZ: One of the urban legends around is that he was somehow the favorite of the Pentagon. He was one of many people whom we saw as credible opposition figures, Dr. Allawi is another one, two very distinguished Kurdish leaders, Mr. Albani (ph), Mr. Barzani. I think it needs to be the policy of the United States not to have favorites but to work with everybody.
BLITZER: So you don't see this rise and fall, if you will, of Ahmed Chalabi as a huge setback to you?
WOLFOWITZ: Certainly not that.
BLITZER: Paul Wolfowitz, thank you so much for joining us for a few minutes and talking about Ronald Reagan.
WOLFOWITZ: Thank you, it's an honor to be able to talk about this great man.
BLITZER: We'll continue this conversation.
Buses are running between the Reagan Library in Simi Valley, California and nearby Moore Park College where parking is available. CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is over at the college. She's joining us now live. Set the scene a little bit for us, Thelma. Tell us what's going on.
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolfe, I can tell you that there are thousands of people who are here. You mentioned that they are parking their cars. And then they will go through a very rigorous screening process by the Secret Service and then they will board the buses that you see right behind me there and make that five-mile journey on the way to the Reagan Library. We talked to mourners today, some who arrived at midnight and told us there was absolutely no way they'd miss an opportunity to pay tribute to the president.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We wanted our son and our daughter to see him. You know, he was a very special man to both my wife and I. Changed the world really. It would be a completely different place if it wasn't for Ronald Reagan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A wonderful human being who you know cared about us.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He brought honor back to the presidency. He is going to be remembered as the best.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUTIERREZ: We talked to one woman who told us that she was very touched by the president. She said that when she found out that he had suffered from Alzheimer's that she could identify with him because her mother suffered from the disease as well. She says that she could relate to all of the difficulties that a family faces over all of those years -- Wolf.
BLITZER: CNN's Thelma Gutierrez out at the Presidential Library as well, nearby, at least. Thanks, Thelma, very much. We'll be checking back with you throughout this hour. To our viewers, here's your chance to weigh in on this important story. Our web question is this, "did Ronald Reagan's presidency change the course of U.S. politics? You can vote right now. Go to CNN.com/wolf. We'll have results a little bit later in this broadcast.
Our coverage of Ronald Reagan's life and death will continue. As mourners continue to file past the former president's casket at the Reagan Library in California, we'll explore Ronald Reagan's private side.
And they're making preparations for a state funeral right here in Washington, D.C. What authorities are doing to prevent a possible terror attack.
And a new warning attributed to al Qaeda. Is it safe to travel?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Looking at these live pictures, people coming, average people, to walk past the casket of Ronald Reagan, his body lying in repose at the Presidential Library in Simi Valley, California. Hundreds have already gone by, perhaps by the end of these 28 hours that are still slated for these people to stand and watch and think and reflect, thousands, thousands will have paid their last respects to the 40th president of the United States who died on Saturday at the age of 93. We'll continue to watch these developments. But there are other important news we want to report, as well, including this.
There's been an ominous new warning for America today attributed to followers of Osama bin Laden.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Two weeks after Attorney General John Ashcroft warned of a new possible attack on U.S. interests, two Islamic websites have posted a grim message. It declares that all compounds, bases and means of transport especially Western and American airlines, will be direct targets for what it called "coming operations in the near future."
The message warns Muslims not to mingle with westerners and to avoid using modes of transportation used by westerners. It is attributed to al Qaeda leaders in the Arabian peninsula and it criticizes Saudi Arabia's government for its ties with Washington.
Saudi Arabia has been a site in recent months of a number of attacks blamed on Islamic militants including a hostage standoff in Khobar late last month that ended in 22 deaths. Just this past weekend an attack in Riyadh killed an Irish journalist and wounded a British television reporter. The United States remains on a yellow terror alert, the midpoint on the five-level scale indicating there's a significant risk of terror attacks.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BLITZER: Our homeland security correspondent Jeanne Meserve is quoting a spokeswoman for the department of homeland security as saying, and I'm quoting now, "there is no indication that al Qaeda is currently targeting airliners in the U.S." The official adds, "it is difficult to verify the authenticity of these statements posted on the web." The official also says this latest threat is consistent with other so-called chatter on the web about attacks against the United States and with al Qaeda's proven interest in airliners.
Security will be intense for the former President Ronald Reagan's state funeral here in Washington. Our congressional correspondent Joe Johns has been looking into that. He's joining us now with details -- Joe.
JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, for security reasons, the United States Capitol has now closed within the last hour to tours and will not reopen until Saturday, as thousands of police officers mobilize for an event, the type of which has not been seen here in decades.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS (voice-over): Heavily armed police officers are already assuming their positions at points around the Capitol complex. More security is expected as a broad array of local and federal law enforcement prepare for the first full-blown series of events in the nation's capital, honoring the passing of a president since the death of Lyndon Johnson 30 years ago.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The good part about this is I think we have been working on this plan for some time and this is not the first time we have had to do a state funeral.
JOHNS: The Reagan state funeral has been designated a national special security event on a par with the presidential inauguration or the national political conventions. Besides the increase in bomb- sniffing dogs and stepped up law enforcement presence it means canceled leave for large numbers of police. Law enforcement personnel from as far away as New York are being placed on standby to come to Washington if necessary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I need additional personnel after we finish our plan, I will take the liberty of bringing in some more officers from one of -- my New York field office.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
JOHNS: Even with all of the security visitors will be allowed to file past the casket of the former president for the better than 24 hours, we are told. Of course, we're expecting tens of thousands of people here at the Capitol -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Joe Johns reporting from Capitol Hill where it's going to be intense over the next several days. Thanks, Joe, very much.
America beginning its final farewell to a favorite president. You're looking at these live pictures of the Reagan Library. Thousands of people lining up to pay their final respects to Ronald Reagan.
And an explosion ripping through a holy site in Iraq. Did a Shiite militia keep its munitions in the wrong place?
He shuffled his cabinet to keep his Gaza withdrawal plan alive. Now Israel's prime minister facing a no-confidence vote. All this ahead. First though a look at some stories you may have missed this past weekend.
World leaders and thousands of now-elderly veterans gathered in France for the 60th anniversary of the D-Day invasion of Normandy. The anniversary also was observed in the United States at the National D-Day Museum in New Orleans.
Swiss visit. 70,000 worshipers looked on as Pope John Paul II celebrated an outdoor mass capping a weekend visit to Switzerland. Although 84 and suffering from Parkinson's disease and other ailments, the pope says he has a duty to continue traveling.
Best of Broadway. Phylicia Rashad, best known for her long- running TV role as Bill Cosby's wife on "The Cosby Show" became the first African-American to win the Tony for best actress in a leading role. Rashad was honored for her performance in a revival of the 1960 drama "Raisin in the Sun." And that's our weekend snapshot.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Once again, these are live pictures of the Presidential Library, the Reagan Library, Simi Valley, California. Average Americans walking by, paying their last respects to the 40th president of the United States. We'll get back there shortly. Let's check some other news we're following right now.
Iraq, an explosion ripping through a mosque sending a pillar of smoke over the city of Kufa. Followers of the radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr say a U.S. rocket hit the shrine but coalition officials say there was no military activity in the area at all and that the blast was caused by munitions stored in the mosque by the insurgents themselves. The explosion in Kufa came as Iraq's interim government announced a deal to disband a number of other militias and as world leaders prepare for a summit off the coast of Georgia which may, repeat, may, clear the way for a United Nations security council resolution on Iraq.
Joining us now our world affairs analyst, former defense secretary William Cohen. When I spoke to Secretary Powell yesterday he was upbeat. Secretary Wolfowitz just now was upbeat. They think they've got a deal that the European allies, France, Germany, Russia, China, that everyone could accept. Do you accept that?
WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: I believe that. I think this was a unique opportunity coming in to celebrate the 60th anniversary and to show that there's a great deal of commonality that remains notwithstanding some of the rhetoric that has gone back and forth over the Atlantic that the Europeans understand it's important that the U.S. and coalition forces prevail. Ultimately if we were unsuccessful all would suffer and I think that understanding is real and deep and I believe you'll see an agreement in the very near future.
BLITZER: Do you think that there's been a dramatic change on the part of the Bush administration in understanding the need for this greater international cooperation?
COHEN: I think the Bush administration in going to the United Nations, seeking Kofi Annan's support, being prepared to have the U.N. resolution provide the umbrella, so to speak, of authority, legitimacy over the operation to give it the international imprimatur was critically important. Without that I think the Europeans would be still reluctant.
BLITZER: But why are they so adamant, the Germans, and the French, in particular, to even consider the notion of helping out the coalition by deploying troops in Iraq?
COHEN: Well, they have made their past commitments. And the Germans, by way of example, even though Chancellor Schroeder has said that he would not send forces into Iraq, nonetheless, has indicated he would not stand in the way of a consensus developing for a NATO deployment to Iraq. It doesn't mean there will be an additional large number of European forces going into Iraq, what it does mean is they will lend support in various ways to facilitate the presence of the United States and coalition forces. I think it's very important.
BLITZER: You were a Republican senator during the eighties, during the Reagan presidency but you were also on that Iran-Contra investigation that at the end of his administration, his second term, almost completely up-ended it. Do you have a good sense, even at this moment, and you were privy to all the most sensitive information, whether Ronald Reagan himself ever understood that his people in his administration were trading arms for hostages?
COHEN: That remains unclear. From President Reagan's statements, he did not believe that they were actually engaged in a trade of arms for hostages. One of the great trademarks of the Reagan administration, President Reagan himself, was the ability to pick good people and then to delegate responsibility. And in that particular case that delegation turned out to be less than wise in some respects and it was unclear to this day whether President Reagan himself understood what was taking place in terms of the sale of the weapons, the inflation of the price of weapons and then the diversion of that surplus to the Iran -- Nicaragua...
BLITZER: Because as you well remember, there was an early meeting with the president, his vice president George Bush, the secretary of defense Casper Weinberg or the secretary of state George P. Shultz, they were all there supposedly discussing this.
COHEN: Well, as you know, there was a disagreement, at least an inconsistency, with the stated public policy of no trading with Iran. And then a covert program put together was -- Colonel North called it off-the-shelf, self-sustaining covert capability. Well, inconsistent with the Constitution, as far as we were concerned on Capitol Hill, but it was never really clear as to whether President Reagan fully appreciated what was taking place in terms of this effort.
BLITZER: Well, it was clear that his adamant refusal to consider some sort of a long-term deal with the Soviet Union helped end the Cold War sooner than probably would have been the case.
COHEN: No question about it. He'll be remembered as the -- peace through strength of going to the Soviet Union and saying that we're prepared to make deals on arms cuts. And that was important, also. There were arms cuts, but there were arms cuts, not simply arms control.
BLITZER: William Cohen, thanks very much.
COHEN: Sure.
BLITZER: Welcome back to the United States. I know you flew in overnight from Singapore.
(CROSSTALK)
COHEN: Good to be here, Wolf.
BLITZER: Good to have you back.
Flowers and flags, prayers and praise, a nation mourning for the former President Ronald Reagan. Up next, I'll speak with his former assistant secretary of defense, Richard Perle.
Plus, the Reagan mystique. Many said he was a man of mystery and a private man masked by his public persona. We'll speak to some who knew him best.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Mourners continuing to file past Ronald Reagan's casket in Simi Valley at the presidential library. These are live pictures. The former president's body arrived at the library earlier today. It's been in a very, very emotional day for the entire Reagan family, including, of course, Mrs. Nancy Reagan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. MICHAEL WENNING, RETIRED SENIOR PASTOR, BEL AIR PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH: Our God is in our midst. and as we were in procession I couldn't help but think of the love and the outpouring that has begun in the nation for a great president, a great world leader and a faithful servant of almighty God."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casket down. WENNING: And finally, just a few verses from the last book of the Bible, which I share with you for your comfort as you begin this journey of remembrance.
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice from the throne saying, see, the dwelling of God is with people. He will dwell with them and God himself will be with them. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death shall be no more. Neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
And may God bless his rich word to your hearts this day and every day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: And during the Reagan years, when the United States stared down the then-Soviet Union, Richard Perle was an assistant secretary of defense. He became perhaps best known as the administration's senior official on nuclear arms control negotiations with the then-Soviet Union.
Richard Perle is joining us now to take a look back at some of those dramatic developments from the Reagan presidency.
How much of a hands-on commander-in-chief president was he when you were negotiating these weapons deals with the old Soviets?
RICHARD PERLE, FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: He was very much hands-on. The overall construct of the negotiations, the concept, the determination, not to sign agreements unless they were clearly in our interest, that was all Ronald Reagan. It wasn't any of the people who assisted him or advised him or worked for him.
BLITZER: When there were differences, as there always were and there anyway are in any administration, he seemed like the type that tried to work things out in a likable, nice kind of way. But give us a little bit of the flavor, how he dealt with those differences.
PERLE: Well, of course, all presidents want consensus among the people who advise them. But you can't always get it. And certainly there were differences in the advice that President Reagan was given.
But he was capable of decisively choosing alternative courses and that sometimes disappointed one Cabinet officer or another. But he knew how to handle them. They never went away angry.
BLITZER: Did he ever say to you, Richard, I think you're wrong; let's it do another way?
PERLE: Well, I was several layers below. So he never said that to me. But he certainly had to choose from time to time between the advice that was coming from the State Department and from the Department of Defense. It's rather like the situation today.
BLITZER: It's not all that different. Caspar Weinberger was your boss. There was the secretary of state, George P. Shultz at that time. And he had to make the final decisions when there were serious differences, as there often were.
During those days, Richard, as you remember it, the Soviets, the Cold War, did you really believe what Ronald Reagan was saying, all the optimistic talk that it was only a matter of time for the Soviet Union to go away?
PERLE: I certainly didn't believe it would happen as quickly as it did.
But the president did. He looked at the Soviet Union. He understood that the illegitimacy of the rule, the fact that people were governed not willingly, but subserviently, that led him to conclude that they were hollow and if they -- if we pushed, they would fall. And he was right. And almost no one agreed with him.
BLITZER: Even within the administration, they thought he was overly optimistic.
I want our viewers to know that we're looking at these live pictures from the Reagan Library in Simi Valley, California, where average people are lining up by the hundreds, the thousands to simply pay their respects.
As you look back on Ronald Reagan, and if he had to take a look at the current situation in Iraq right now, how do you think he would come down on it?
PERLE: I have no doubt that he would be steady. He would insist that we see this through to a successful conclusion.
BLITZER: But I asked the same question of Paul Wolfowitz, the current deputy secretary of defense. And I reminded him, he wasn't steady on Lebanon. After the U.S. Marines barracks were blown up and 241 U.S. Marines were killed, he pulled out.
PERLE: I think what happened in Lebanon is that we were there without a clear purpose. We were there to try stabilize things, but there wasn't a clear purpose. And so when we took that terrible, tragic loss, he looked around and he said, why are we there? And there wasn't a convincing answer.
But he would understand perfectly well why we are in Iraq today. And I have no doubt that he would not be pushed out of Iraq before completing the mission.
BLITZER: Has the administration, this administration, shared with you the information at least some of them seem to have on Ahmad Chalabi suggesting that he may have given some of the most sensitive secret information that the U.S. has to Iran?
PERLE: I believe that allegation against Dr. Chalabi is wrong and maliciously put forward by people who don't like him. And I think ultimately it will be shown to be wrong. The idea that Ahmad Chalabi, who has fought for the freedom of Iraqis, for a secular, democratic Iraq, would secretly be working for a theocratic dictatorship in Tehran is absurd.
BLITZER: If that's the case, this is one of the most monumental smears that I can remember, that U.S. officials participating in an allegation that he gave information involving -- code-breaking information, the crown jewels of the intelligence community -- to Iran.
PERLE: Well, I have not seen any official willing to be identified make that accusation. It's been put about by people who refuse to be identified, by former intelligence operatives. Officials with knowledge of the matter have only said that there are allegations and there's an investigation. It is a smear. And it's unlike any I've seen in 35 years in Washington.
BLITZER: Well, we'll see what happens.
Richard Perle, thanks for coming in, sharing few reflections on Ronald Reagan, the 40th president of the United States.
Thousands of people are coming to pay their respects to Ronald Reagan. We'll go back to Southern California and we'll hear what they're saying.
Plus, the Reagan mystique, the part of the president that few people really understood. We'll get to all of that.
First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Prime Minister airlines survived a no- confidence vote in the Israeli Parliament today. It came a day after Sharon's shuffled his Cabinet to win qualified approval of his Gaza withdrawal man.
A Saudi diplomat says gunmen connected to al Qaeda are to blame for killing a BBC cameraman and seriously wounding a senior correspondent Saturday. The pair were hit in a drive-by shooting in Riyadh.
The Olympic torch is now in South Korea. Runners carry the torch through the capital of Seoul today. It will pass through 33 cities on five continents before returning to Greece for the Summer Games in August.
And the Swiss have the best barbecue. More than 70 teams from a dozen countries grilled beef, pork, fish, even pineapple, to try and take the prize in the Barbecue World Championship in Germany over the weekend.
And that's our look around the world. (END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: The public viewing of former President Ronald Reagan continuing at his presidential library in Southern California. Those paying their respects first go to California's Moorpark Community College for a shuttle ride over to the library.
CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is at Moorpark. She's been talking to many of the mourners who are dropping by.
Thelma, what are they saying to you? I think -- Thelma, I don't know if you can hear me, but we're trying to understand...
GUTIERREZ: Wolf, the line continues to grow here. It's tough to tell from this vantage point, but thousands of people are gathered out here.
The line wraps around the college and it goes right through the parking lot. Security, in fact, is so tight, that the media and those who are broadcasting live are actually tethered to one area. And they're being kept away from all of those who have cleared the Secret Service security screening.
Now, we did talk to some mourners this morning. Some arrived at midnight. And they say not only do they want to be part of an historical event, but they also wanted to have an opportunity to say a final farewell.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It means, one, the opportunity of a lifetime to pay respect to a great lead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't have to be around for that time of era to pay respect to somebody of that greatness.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When he gave his speech that he was wouldn't be in the public anymore because of Alzheimer's, that touched my heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GUTIERREZ: And one woman told us that she connected with the president because her mother had Alzheimer's as well.
And you can see all the folks who are standing in that line. They are making their way over to the buses. The buses will be moving continuously between the college and the library, which is five miles away. And, Wolf, it is a massive undertaking. Again, they're trying to move 2,000 people an hour. And we're told that they believe that 45,000 and 60,000 people will actually make their way up to the library -- back to you.
BLITZER: CNN's Thelma Gutierrez is over in Southern California at -- near the library over at Moorpark College. Thanks, Thelma, very much.
Let's take another live look at the presidential library in Simi Valley. There it is, people just walking by, continuing to pay their respects to Ronald Reagan.
He was called the great communicator, why many who knew Reagan say he was easy to like, but really almost impossible to fully understand.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: They're continuing to pay their respects, the body of Ronald Reagan lying in repose at the presidential library in Simi Valley, California, 2,000 people an hour scheduled, expected to go through.
The man known as the great communicator didn't communicate everything. Those who knew him best, even members of his own family, say there was always a part of Ronald Reagan that remained out of reach to them.
CNN's Brian Todd is here with me and he's joining us with more on that -- Brian.
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, with all of the memories that we're looking at of Ronald Reagan this week, we're still left with one void, many say a man who was personally unknowable.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TODD (voice-over): His own son once told a PBS interviewer:
RON REAGAN, SON OF PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: You're not going to figure him out. That's the first thing you need to know.
TODD: He espoused the importance of family, but, at various times, his children were estranged from him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We'll never have a real chatty, open, casual relationship.
TODD: He seemed the most affable, approachable of presidents in public. But the personal, private Ronald Reagan is the one we know the least. And some say, not even those closest to him could penetrate that veneer.
FRANK SESNO, FORMER CNN ANCHOR: Reagan kept to himself. He didn't even share certain things with his family.
TODD: His son Ron Reagan once said of his father, there was always that 10 percent of him that no one could get past. Aides who worked closely with him, reporters who covered him for years give similar accounts. To get at essence of the man, a true personality, was near impossible.
Some observers say because so much of his life, from his youth as a lifeguard through the Hollywood years to politics, was public, that he simply existed in that world, didn't pay attention to even having a private side. Others see the same emotional makeup as other larger- than-life presidents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Politicians, presidents, use people. And part of it is to guard themselves, their inner lives, from the knowledge of those around them, because it gives those around them an advantage. And presidents don't want them to have that advantage.
TODD: Almost to a person, observers agree, no one knew Ronald Reagan better than his wife. Daughter Patty once told a journalist that when the two of them were together, they sucked the oxygen out of the room. But some say there was still part of the man that Nancy Reagan herself could not tap into.
SESNO: Even she commented to me once. She said, he was not an analytical man. He was not an introspective man. I never could get him to talk about himself. That was his wife.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
TODD: Still, the consensus is, Nancy Reagan did know him better than anyone else did. But because she was, as many say, his protector, she did play a role in keeping that private part of Ronald Reagan, Wolf, from public view. People say that was her right to do that, but it did add to the mystery.
BLITZER: CNN's Brian Todd adding to the mystery a little bit more -- thanks very much, Brian.
Remembering Ronald Reagan. CNN's coverage of the events leading up to Friday's state funeral here in Washington will continue.
And our "Web Question of the Day" is this: Did Ronald Reagan's presidency change the course of U.S. politics? You can vote right now at CNN.com/Wolf. That's the place. We'll have the results for you when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Here's you're weighing in on our "Web Question of the Day." Take a look at this. The question was: Did Ronald Reagan's presidency change the course of U.S. politics? Eighty-three percent of you said yes; 17 percent of you said no. Remember, this is not a scientific poll.
Let's get to some of your e-mail.
Barbara writes this: "Ronald Reagan was the greatest for all people. He had an astronomical talent to bring the world together. There was no religion or color. All were equal. He was everyone's president. And he had so much love for his country. My prayers are with the Reagan family and all Americans."
B.C. writes this: "Reagan was a decent and honest man, and we owe him for helping to end the Cold War. But many areas of his domestic and foreign policies were clearing lacking. To do his legacy justice, we must set emotions and partisan considerations aside in the interest of historical accuracy."
A reminder. We're on weekdays, 5:00 Eastern. Tomorrow at this time, I'll speak with Robert Gates, the former CIA director.
Until then, thanks for joining us. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
