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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Saddam Hussein appears in court, Could President Bush be called to testify at Saddam Hussein's trial? Unexpected development in Kobe Bryant case

Aired July 01, 2004 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. Our first look of the new Saddam Hussein and he's looking a lot different than he did back in December when he was captured but will these new images encourage or discourage fresh terror attacks?
Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Saddam sounds off.

The ex-dictator defeated but defiant.

We'll take you inside the court.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I could hear the chains as they were being taken off around his waist and as the handcuffs were being taken off and everybody was electrified.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said to the judge, "but you know that this is all a theater by Bush, a criminal, to help him with his campaign" was the translation I got.

BLITZER: And we'll take you into the streets.

What makes him tick? We'll put Saddam on the couch with a psychiatrist who has profiled world leaders for the CIA.

Saddam's future. Who will come to his defense? Could they be called to testify?

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Thursday, July 1, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: He arrived in an armored bus under heavy guard. His shackles were removed just before he faced the judge. Dazed at first, he soon drew himself up as if he were still in command. CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour was in the courtroom when Saddam Hussein heard the charges against him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INT. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Saddam Hussein was walked into court, he looked somewhat broken, unsure of what was going on. Then he took his seat before an investigative judge who asked him to say his name.

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FMR. PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq.

AMANPOUR: What followed was a spirited exchange with the judge.

HUSSEIN: You also have to introduce yourself to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Saddam, I am the investigative judge of the central court of Iraq.

AMANPOUR: Saddam asked whether he was permitted to have lawyers there. The judge said yes and read him his rights. The judge also read him seven charges including attacking the Kurds of Halabja with chemical weapons. To that, Saddam replied that he, too, heard about Halabja in the media, quote, "they say it happened under the rule of Saddam Hussein," he said, "poison gas was used there."

Saddam was also charged with the brutal suppression of the Kurd and Shiite rebellions right after the first Gulf War and of killing political and religious figures throughout his rule. When the judge read the last charge, the invasion of Kuwait, Saddam Hussein became angry, insisting that it was his duty as commander-in-chief to defend the Iraqi people from Kuwait who wanted to dramatically lower oil prices.

HUSSEIN: How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued.

AMANPOUR: Saddam insulted the Kuwaitis and the judge reprimanded him, saying such language would not be permitted in a court of law. He also insulted President George W. Bush, saying this was a theater organized by, quote, "the criminal Bush to win his campaign."

Saddam also asked the judge who had jurisdiction over him. He asked him whether he was representing the occupation forces and he insisted that the occupation could not strip him of his presidency. When the judge asked Saddam to sign the court document showing he had been read his rights and he had been offered legal counsel, he refused, saying that he would not sign without a lawyer.

HUSSEIN: Please allow me -- allow me not to sign until the lawyers are present.

AMANPOUR: That ended the hearing. Saddam stood and was escorted out and back into U.S. military custody. Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Saddam Hussein wasn't the only defendant in court. 11 other members of his regime also made appearances, some better known than others.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz has been a familiar figure to many Americans since the 1991 Gulf War. He surrendered in April of last year. Aziz was the 8 of spades in the playing card deck distributed by coalition troops and number 25 on the Iraqi most wanted list. At his court appearance he denied personal involvement in any of the regime's alleged crimes. After the hearing, a pool (ph) reporter read from his notes about an exchange in Arabic between the judge and Aziz.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are criminal charges against you, not political. He said, "are these personal accusations or are they accusations against me in my capacity as a member of the Revolutionary Command Council or as a minister? But I need to know, are these charges personal? Is it Tariq Aziz who is accused who carried out these killings? If I'm a member of a government that made the mistake of killing someone, then there can be no direct accusation against me. I never killed anybody by any direct act. You are accused of this. If there's a crime, the moral responsibility rests with the leadership. But a member of the leadership cannot be held personally responsible."

BLITZER: Ali Hasan Al-Majid is Saddam Hussein's first cousin. He was known as "Chemical Ali" for his alleged role in poison gas attacks against Kurds and Iranians.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He comes in with a stick. He looked nothing like the Chemical Ali that you and I know. He looked, in his case, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)-faced. He had close cropped, mostly gray hair and he walked with a stick with a little crook on the top, a sort of shepherd's crook. He's a diabetic, apparently, and you know (UNINTELLIGIBLE) stage diabetes affects the lower limbs.

BLITZER: Chemical Ali was the king of spades in the playing card deck and number five on the most wanted list. He was captured on August 21st of last year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said to the guard as he went out, the guard told were by this that he said, "I'm pleased" -- he said, "I thought the charges would be much worse."

BLITZER: Former Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan was the 10 of diamonds and number 20 on the most wanted list. He was detained August 20th of last year.

Relatively unknown to Americans but the ace of diamonds in the coalition card deck and number four on the most wanted list, Abid Hamid Mahmud was the presidential secretary and he oversaw Saddam's personal security force. He was detained on June 16th of last year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: The 11 defendants on trial with Saddam Hussein also include Saddam Hussein's son-in-law and two half-brothers. CNN's Anderson Cooper is in Baghdad, he's been anchoring his own program from there, as well as giving us special insight into this week's historic events. Anderson Cooper is joining us now live once again from Baghdad. Anderson, so what happens next? What should we anticipate in the days and weeks to come?

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Well, the legal battle continues now. Saddam Hussein has a team of lawyers, some 20 or more lawyers who have gathered right now in Amman, Jordan, in the neighboring country of Jordan, trying to figure out what happens next.

They have been hired through a Jordanian attorney by Saddam's wife and two daughters. I talked to one of those lawyers earlier today, Tim Hughes, who said that basically they plan on challenging this by saying that there's no way Saddam Hussein can receive a fair trial here in Baghdad, That the entire proceedings are illegal, illegitimate, because they stem from an illegal invasion, in his words, and that the governing power here as no authority to try Saddam Hussein because he is still the president of a sovereign nation of Iraq.

So the battle continues. It is going to be fought in the weeks and the months ahead. There's a long road to go. Prime Minister Allawi, the other day, telling the Iraqi people there is not going to be an actual trial until probably early 2005 at the very earliest, warning Iraqi people that they just are going to have to be patient. A long road ahead, Wolf.

BLITZER: Is it a forgone conclusion, Anderson, that Saddam Hussein won't be the first war crimes trial that other of his regime aides, other leaders will go first or will he go first?

COOPER: I think at this point nothing is a forgone conclusion. The word we were getting, though, is that some say he will not be the first one put on trial, that some of his lower-level aides will be put on trial first, the idea being to help build a case ultimately against Saddam Hussein, perhaps some of their testimony could be used against Saddam Hussein.

But again it seems at this point everything is up for grabs. This is a process the likes of which Iraq has never seen before, this government has not seen before, and they seem to be feeling their way as they go. And they do have a long way to go at that.

BLITZER: Anderson Cooper doing some excellent, very courageous reporting over the past several days from Iraq. Anderson, thank you very much.

This important note to our viewers. Anderson of course will be anchoring his own program tonight live from Baghdad. Once again that's "ANDERSON COOPER 360." 7:00 p.m. Eastern, 4:00 Pacific. A little bit less than two hours from now.

Saddam Hussein in his own words. We'll hear from the man himself, that's coming up. Plus, reaction to Saddam Hussein's appearance in court from the people of Iraq. We'll return to Baghdad. That's coming up straight ahead.

And could President Bush be called to testify at Saddam Hussein's trial? We'll hear from one of Saddam's lawyers on the defense's plans.

Psychology of the former dictator now standing trial. We'll examine Saddam's words and body language. Our special coverage of this historic day continues after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Iraqis, of course, were riveted by the scenes of their once-feared dictator facing a judge. In cafes and on street corners, they can speaking of little else. Let's go live to our senior international correspondent Brent Sadler. He's in Baghdad with reaction from there -- Brent.

BRENT SADLER, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Wolf. Yes indeed they were riveted when they could watch the TV in between the power cuts here. This was the beginning of a fair trial. But in the eyes of many Iraqis here it seemed too fair.

Some of told me they thought that Saddam should have been made to stand in front of the judge, he should have been manacled in the courtroom, the chains should not have taken off of him before he got inside.

Some others say that he was far too free to speak his views. He able to challenge the young judge who didn't admonish him enough. And really they were dissatisfied.

A number of them were also concerned that Saddam Hussein, while rejecting the charges against him, was perhaps able to embolden his supporters in parts of Iraq, particularly in the insurgents area of the so-called Sunni Triangle because of the standard of his performance, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at times, Wolf, to adopt some of his old presidential mannerisms.

BLITZER: Brent, is there a sense that you're getting there that Saddam Hussein -- that people really believe Saddam Hussein is on trial and facing the death penalty? Are people sort of wondering what's going to happen next, if that's all real?

SADLER: Well first of all, they have to grasp what's happening here. This is unique for Iraq. They've got to get into that quantum leap from Iraqi president tyrant Saddam Hussein to Saddam the prisoner, the criminal under the Iraqi judicial system. That takes some getting used to.

What they were not expecting to see, having seen Saddam Hussein last December, was a man able to grasp a degree of control within that courtroom, challenge the system, try and score points off the judge, and really be allowed to get away with it. They were disappointed at that and surprised at that.

BLITZER: CNN's Brent Sadler reporting from Baghdad. Brent, thank you very much.

To our viewers, here's your chance to way in on this important story. Our "Web Question of the Day" is this: can Saddam Hussein get a fair trial in Iraq? You can vote right now. Go to cnn.com/wolf. We'll have the results a bit later in this broadcast.

Iraq, of course, was on the top of the agenda over at the White House today. Our senior White House correspondent John King standing by with more on that -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Wolf, one would think on this dramatic, historic day we might hear directly from the president of the United States as to his reaction of Saddam Hussein's day in court. But Mr. Bush not saying anything publicly about this at all.

Instead sticking to his schedule which included two public events including this, the swearing-in of his new ambassador to the United Nations, former Missouri Senator Jack Danforth.

This all by design. The White House did not want the president out publicly on this. It believes the trial is the business of the new Iraqi government and a chance for the new Iraqi government to prove its commitment to the rule of law.

But while the president said nothing in public, his spokesman said Mr. Bush was certainly well aware of what was going on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president a short time ago was able to see some of the replay of the news coverage from the arraignment earlier today. The president is pleased that Saddam Hussein and his regime leaders are facing justice from the Iraqi people, in an Iraqi court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Similar reaction from Vice President Dick Cheney. He was traveling in New Orleans today. Mr. Cheney noting he was last in that city on the day Saddam Hussein's statue was toppled.

Mr. Cheney saying he was grateful that Saddam Hussein was facing justice, justice he denied his own citizens is how the vice president put it.

Now while Saddam Hussein is charged with crimes against his own people, charged with illegally invading Kuwait back in 1990, in his public remarks, the vice president continued to press a case that many insist the Bush administration is exaggerating. Vice President Cheney insisting Saddam Hussein had longstanding ties to al Qaeda including a detailed effort to provide shelter and sanctuary to the terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Zarqawi, along with some two dozen associates, al Qaeda members and affiliates ran poisons camps -- a poison camp in northern Iraq, which became a safe haven for Ansar al Islam, as well as al Qaeda terrorists fleeing our coalition in Afghanistan.

The Iraqi regime refused to turn over Zarqawi, even when twice being provided with detailed information about his presence in Baghdad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Now, as for Saddam Hussein's allegation that this is all theater designed to help the Bush reelection campaign, Wolf. The White House says that's not true dismissing that, suggesting and saying Saddam Hussein, over the course of this trial, is going to say a lot of things -- Wolf.

BLITZER: John King at the White House. John, thanks very much.

The dangers on the ground in Iraq. In just a moment, I'll speak live with the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Duncan Hunter. He was in Baghdad this week.

Also, the psychology of Saddam, his gestures, his words. An expert's take on Saddam Hussein in court.

What tactic will his defense team take? We'll hear from one of Saddam Hussein's lawyers.

And an unexpected development in the Kobe Bryant case. What the prosecutor said that caught many off-guard.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Republican Congressman Duncan Hunter of California is the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. He's just returned to Washington from Iraq. He's joining us now live from San Diego. Mr. Chairman, welcome back. Glad you're back safe and sound. Thanks very much for joining us.

You think it was appropriate that Saddam Hussein appeared in this courtroom today without a lawyer?

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA, CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Yes, I think it was appropriate, as long as he has a lawyer when he's just basically notified of the charges, he will be afforded a lawyer. As it was noted by several Iraqi leaders, he's going to be given a lot more justice than he gave lots of other people.

BLITZER: You heard Brent Sadler, I think, just report a lot of Iraqis were surprised that he had so much control in that courtroom today, that he wasn't even seen shackled, in handcuffs, anything along those lines. He looked almost like he was still in partial control.

HUNTER: Well, Saddam Hussein is a very ruthless person. I mean, this is a guy who very coolly could execute people with his own hand, by his own gun, kill his son-in-laws, gas people.

As I -- we were coming back through Ramstein, Germany, after the Iraq visit to visit our wounded people, and one of the medical leaders there, one of the surgeons, gave me a film of Saddam Hussein's people amputating the hands of businessmen because they hadn't done enough for the economy for Saddam Hussein.

So, this guy is very ruthless. And certainly he's -- he's very sure of himself, and he called the Kuwaitis, "dogs," I believe, said that Kuwait belonged to Iraq, denied any -- any participation in these mass murders. I think that was -- I think the people understand now why he needs to be brought to justice.

BLITZER: I'll ask you a question we're asking our viewers: Do you believe he can get a fair trial in Iraq?

HUNTER: Well, certainly. I think that -- I think, first, the evidence is pretty overwhelming evidence. I think the question people would ask is: Can you really kill 10,000 people with poison gas and have their bodies strewn across the hillsides with their babies and not be held responsible for it? Can you bulldoze those thousands of Shiites into open graves and not be responsible for it?

Again, this guy actually filmed a number of the executions that he ordered and some of which he carried out himself. So, he's going to have a lot of evidence against him, and certainly I think he can get as fair a trial there as anywhere.

I think it's appropriate that the Iraqi people are bringing him to justice, that this is not an American court, and I think a lot of Iraqis now understand the United States is not controlling this thing. We're moving this country over to the Iraqi people, we're handing it off -- we're going to hand off the military operation, and we're leaving.

BLITZER: So, you're not among those, clearly, who thinks the International Court of Justice and The Hague should be trying Saddam just like it's trying Slobodan Milosevic?

HUNTER: I think that's -- that's obviously one forum, but I think that it's absolutely appropriate that the Iraqi people try Saddam Hussein for this reason: He killed so many Iraqis and brutalized so many. And I think that it -- I think to some degree this validates the American operation.

One thing that Saddam Hussein was right on: He wouldn't be there, being brought to justice, in front of a court, if it wasn't for George Bush and lots of folks from the 101st Airborne, 1st Marines, and the 3rd Army and 4th Army and the 1st Striker Division and the Big Red One and all the rest of the people that did that operation. If it wasn't for the Americans, he wouldn't be there.

BLITZER: You're just back from Iraq, what was -- when you were there on the ground -- the biggest surprise that jumped out at you?

HUNTER: Well, you know, we did a -- I'll tell you what I was surprised about: the coolness of the Americans. We went up to Balad, and we had a couple of mortars come in while we were there. They've been mortared daily. The GIs there, men and women, didn't panic, they didn't stampede, they walked very coolly while they continued conversations to the bunkers.

When inside and when the all-clear was given, they came out. In fact, the one place we walked into when they had the mortar attack was a church service. And the church service, some of the GIs looked up like, "We're in a church service; don't interrupt us." And they kept right on with their service, then they put their combat gear on, they went back out and went back to their duties.

So, the coolness and the stability of the American GIs and Marines in Fallujah, and the Striker Brigade up in Mosul, was amazing, because you see in American this being whipped into a tizzy here in terms of this operation. And the people who are carrying it out, who are in the danger, are very cool.

BLITZER: Did you get the sense -- did you come back reassured that the troops have the equipment, the protective gear, the vests, the armor that they need? We hear all these reports that even now, more than a year after the war started, there are still shortages.

HUNTER: With respect to body armor, Wolf, we have 138,000 troops in country, we have 260,000 sets of body armor. So, I will say again on your show what I offer at every forum: If there's any GI who doesn't have a set of body armor, call me, have the folks get a hold of me.

Now, I did that last time and nobody called me yet. We have enough armor for -- to armor every GI in country two times. Now, that's the best body armor.

Now, other areas -- in terms of convoy protection, I think we need to have more steel on those convoys, and I think we need to have more gun trucks. And there's several other classified things I think we need to have. So, we put together a list of things that we think we need that are new developments that we think can make our military more efficient and more protected. And we're going to go back and really work on those in the next several weeks.

BLITZER: Duncan Hunter, the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, welcome home. Glad you're back safe and sound. Thanks very much.

HUNTER: Hey, thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Federal agents swoop in: A government raid on an Islamic center near Washington, D.C., but officials won't say why.

Saddam Hussein's lawyers: Can they really call on President Bush to testify?

And putting Saddam on the couch: A psychiatrist tells us what makes the ex-dictator tick. Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: From our studios in Washington, once again, Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: Welcome back

Defending Saddam Hussein. Will his legal team get President Bush or Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to testify? We'll hear from one of Saddam's attorneys.

First, though, a quick check of some other headlines.

CNN has learned from sources that officials from three federal agencies raided an Islamic center in Fairfax, Virginia, earlier today. That's just outside Washington, D.C. One source says officials have been scrutinizing the finances of the Institute of Islamic and Arabic Sciences in America since 9/11. Another source says no arrests were expected.

The lead prosecutor in the Kobe Bryant rape case won't be taking the lead in the upcoming trial. District attorney Mark Hurlbert says three other attorneys will handle day-to-day matters, but he says he will provide general oversight. Hurlbert cited other duties.

Former NBA star Manute Bol is in a Connecticut hospital after the cab he was riding in rolled over last night, killing the driver. Police say the 7-foot, 7'' Bol was thrown from the vehicle. And a longtime friend says the 43-year-old suffered a broken neck.

Now back to our top story. Formal charges against Saddam Hussein will be worked out over the next few months following his appearance in an Iraqi court earlier today.

CNN's Zain Verjee has been looking into the former dictator's possible defense strategies.

Zain is joining us now live from the CNN Center.

What have you discovered, Zain?

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, I spent about 10 minutes this morning speaking to one of Saddam Hussein's lawyers.

Saddam may have looked thinner and more tired, but he was defiant. One of his statements today, though, was far from delusional, as some may think it was. Listen to what he says and then to how the defense attorney picks up on it to form a core of the defense strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER IRAQI PRESIDENT (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq, is it allowed to call a president elected by the people and charge him according to a law that was enacted under his will and the will of the people? VERJEE (voice-over): These statements lend a clue to the legal tactics Saddam's 20-member defense team may adopt. I spoke to Tim Hughes, who's on Saddam's defense team. He rationalizes Saddam's statements and then builds on them.

TIM HUGHES, ATTORNEY FOR SADDAM HUSSEIN: The invasion was illegitimate and the overthrowing of the regime remains illegitimate. He therefore remains the president.

VERJEE: And, as the legal president, the defense is likely to argue, under Iraqi law, he can't be prosecuted, particularly by an illegitimate tribunal set up during the occupation.

In the course of our controversy, Hughes outlined more of what the defense wants, direct answers to Saddam, a more open, independent and fair judicial process, the trial moved to another venue, possibly the Hague, a health assessment to see what Saddam can withstand before and during the trial, and review evidence it hasn't received yet.

I then asked Hughes, would the defense call President George W. Bush as its witness, Vice President Dick Cheney? What about Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld? Hughes' response?

HUGHES: I don't really, at this very early stage -- the charges have only been laid today. And we have not even met with him or had an opportunity of considering the evidence.

(CROSSTALK)

VERJEE (on camera): But if you had the choice, as a defense lawyer, if it was your choice, would you do that?

HUGHES: Well, I'm afraid, although you've asked me four times, I'm...

(CROSSTALK)

VERJEE: But I haven't got an answer yet.

HUGHES: I'm sorry. I'm not in a position to answer that.

VERJEE (voice-over): We pressed Saddam's attorney, but couldn't get specifics. So we asked a war crimes expert.

DAVID SCHEFFER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR AT LARGE: I suspect defense counsel will try to add to their witness lists U.S. officials going all the way up to President Bush. That is to be expected.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: Saddam's defense attorney says this is nothing but a show trial for the media's benefit. Iraqi officials say this will be fair and transparent trial and that it's not about settling old scores -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Zain, based on all your conversations, is there a difference between calling President Bush, let's say, or Defense Secretary Rumsfeld to come and testify if the defense wants one or both or maybe Vice President Cheney as well?

VERJEE: Well, what we're hearing from war crimes experts is that the judges in the court are going to decide who qualifies for a witness for the trial and who doesn't. And even if a request is made for President Bush, Rumsfeld or Cheney, it doesn't mean that any of them have to appear -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Zain Verjee reporting for us from the CNN Center -- Zain, thank you very much.

And, as we've been reporting, today, the world got its first extended look at Saddam Hussein since he was deposed more than a year ago. The former Iraqi president was alternately downcast and nervous, then combative and energized. We're going to take a few moments now to see and hear some of the highlights of his 30-minute court appearance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Profession, former president of the Republic of Iraq.

HUSSEIN (through translator): No, present, current. It's the will of the people.

I have to know, you are an investigative judge of the center court of Iraq? What resolution, what law formed this court? Oh, the coalition forces? So you are an Iraqi that -- you are representing the occupying forces?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, I'm an Iraqi representing Iraq.

HUSSEIN (through translator): But you are...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I was appointed by a presidential decree under the former -- former regime.

HUSSEIN (through translator): So you are reiterating that every Iraqi should respect the Iraqi law. So the law that was instituted before represents the will of the people, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, God willing.

HUSSEIN (through translator): So you should not work under the jurisdiction of the coalition forces.

I'm not complicating matters. Are you a judge? You are a judge. And judges, they value the law, and they rule by law, right? Right?

Right is a relative issue. For us, right is our heritage in the Koran, Sharia, right? I'm not talking about Saddam Hussein, whether he was a citizen or in other capacities. I'm not holding fast to my position, but to respect the will of the people that decided to choose Saddam Hussein as the leader of the revolution.

Therefore, when I say president of the Republic of Iraq, it's not a formality or holding fast to a position, but, rather, to reiterate to the Iraqi people that I respect its will.

Let me understand something, who is the defendant? Any defendant, when he comes to a court, before that, there should be investigation. This is not a court, this is investigation. This is investigation now.

Let me clarify this point. Then I hope that you remember you are a judge empowered by the people. It doesn't really matter whether you convict me or not, that's not what's important. But what's important is that you remember that you're a judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then don't mention anything occupying forces. This is not good. Then I judge by in the name of people.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Then judge in the name of people. This is the Iraqi way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Saddam Hussein berating the young judge in that courtroom earlier today.

A grim new milestone in U.S. casualties, meanwhile.

Plus the trial of Saddam Hussein, I'll speak about Iraq with our world affairs analyst, the former Defense Secretary William Cohen.

Plus, what he said and how he looked. An expert looks at the psychology of Saddam Hussein.

And the rings of Saturn, the finest images ever seen by man, we'll show them to you. We'll get to all of that.

First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Three thousand South Korean troops are training for deployment to Iraq starting next month. It will be South Korea's largest overseas military mission since the Vietnam War. And it comes despite local protests, fueled in part by last month's abduction and murder in Iraq of a South Korea civilian.

Standing guard. With the Athens Olympics now a month and a half away, Greek security forces are beginning to take their positions guarding Olympic venues. They say they'll use the remaining time to familiarize themselves with their locations.

Hong Kong demonstration. Hundreds of thousands of protesters marched through downtown Hong Kong to demand full democracy from the Chinese government. The march marked the seven anniversary of Beijing's control of Hong Kong, formerly a British colony.

Flowering achievement. They say a rose is a rose is a rose. But no one has ever seen a rose like this. Japanese bioengineers say they have created the first true blue rose, containing a pigment found in other blue flowers.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Earlier today, I had a chance to speak with our world affairs analyst, the former Defense Secretary William Cohen. We spoke about Saddam Hussein, Iraq, and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Secretary Cohen, as usual, thanks very much for joining us.

What do you make of what we saw in Baghdad today, Saddam Hussein in court?

WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it's clear that he's lost some weight, but apparently, he's also been getting exercise at least a couple times a day, and plus on a diet that would not be the equivalent of a five-star restaurant. So the thinness struck me. But secondly he appeared to be very much in command of his faculties, so the defense of insanity doesn't appear to be available to him, based on what we saw today.

BLITZER: He seemed very sane. He seemed very alert to a certain degree.

COHEN: He seemed very alert. He seemed very defiant, aware of the nature of the charges, prepared to rebut them, at least verbally.

So I think that he is going to be a tough witness to contend with when the time comes. That time should be perhaps next year and not soon.

BLITZER: I hear different assessments, what this video, these dramatic pictures, the impact it will have on the transition of power in Iraq, whether it will encourage the insurgents to go out and strike more or demoralize them and maybe help the new interim Iraqi government. What's your take?

COHEN: I don't think anyone can predict that right now. I think the most important thing is for him to have had his preliminary day in court and then to disappear for a while and allow the process, the gathering of evidence, the collation of that evidence, the gathering of the materials that will be presented to a new court, so to speak. And all of this should be done with him not in the public eye, because we still have a very serious insurgency underway. We still have violence being visited upon the Iraqi people and the U.S. and coalition forces. And so to have him dominate the headlines, so to speak, on any kind of prolonged basis would be very damaging to the interim government.

BLITZER: When I interviewed Salem Chalabi, who is the head of the special tribunal process in Iraq, the other day, he said his biggest concern, his biggest fear, that Saddam Hussein could escape or be killed in some way. And that's why they've asked the U.S. to provide physical security. This sounds like it's a huge problem out there.

COHEN: It is a huge problem. And these concerns are legitimate. For him to be either assassinated or allowed to escape would be I think very devastating to the interim government and have an impact here politically upon the United States, and so I think it's important that he be safely contained until such time as he can be brought to trial.

BLITZER: What else should the U.S. government be doing now to try to make sure this new interim government in Iraq gets going and that there can be free and fair elections sometime next year?

COHEN: Well, the most important thing is to continue to try and provide security. The most important thing for the Iraqi people and for the interim government is to try to reduce the level of violence taking place, mostly against the Iraqi people themselves.

But they're going to continue to attack the pipelines, the power stations, try to kill political leaders, attack the police. All of this can undermine the legitimacy and effectiveness of the interim government, and so security has got to be the predominant concern for the United States and the coalition forces.

BLITZER: You are just back from Russia. You spent time in Europe. Is this trans-Atlantic alliance still in trouble or have things patched over in the aftermath of the NATO meeting, which just concluded in Turkey?

COHEN: I think they've been patched over somewhat. I think we have a long way to go. There's still a good deal of resentment toward the United States. And that is not going to be healed quickly. We'll have to work at it.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Is there resentment in Russia, too? Or is it just France and Germany?

COHEN: No, in Russia, I think there's an element of distrust that still exists. For example, who is Putin? Is he democrat or autocrat? Do we have the rule of law or the law of rule taking place in Russia. So the Russians look with some suspicion upon the enlargement of NATO, the enlargement of the E.U. and whether this has a direct impact upon their security interests and their future relationship with the United States and the West. So there's still an element of distrust that we have to overcome.

And the conference that we had, as a matter of fact, with looking through each other's eyes, how do they see us and how do we see them? And then try to break down some of those barriers that still exist.

BLITZER: A lot of work still to be done. Secretary Cohen, welcome back home. Thanks very much.

COHEN: Pleasure to be here. Thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And we're getting this potentially very significant story in from the Reuters News Agency just now, King Abdullah of Jordan saying for the first time that, if asked by the new Iraqi government, he will in fact be prepared to send troops, Jordanian military troops, to serve in Iraq.

"My message to the Iraqi president and the prime minister," he tells the BBC, "is tell us what you want, tell us how we can help, and we have 110 percent support for this." If this happens, Jordan would be the first Arab country to send troops to Iraq. We'll monitor the story for you, our viewers.

We're also dissecting today's proceedings in Baghdad. The former dictator's body language, his demeanor, even his choice of words under a microscope. See what we found out. That's coming up next.

Also still to come, circling Saturn, the planet's rings revealed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We saw striking images from that Iraqi courtroom today. Saddam Hussein was humbled, but not humble, showing flashes of the arrogance he displayed as a feared dictator. What's behind the bravado of today, though?

CNN's Brian Todd joining us now live with more on that -- Brian?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, apparently, behind that bravado is an incredible psychology. And to get at that, we looked at today's events with a man who may know Saddam's mind as well as anyone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): Reporters described him as nervous at first, taking a while to hit his stride, but once the defiance kicked in, it was vintage Saddam Hussein.

We brought in Dr. Jerrold Post, founder of the CIA's Psychology Profiling Division, who later did his own profile of Saddam, to give us his take on the man's performance.

(on camera): I want to ask you first about his appearance overall. I think that struck a lot of viewers, just seeing the way he looked in the courtroom? What is your take on his appearance?

DR. JERROLD POST, PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILER: I'm really struck. This is Saddam Hussein in command. He looks intense, focused. He's concentrating. And he's even almost -- he gives an appearance here of almost lecturing to the judge. What a remarkable contrast this decisive man in charge is with that amazing image we saw emerging from the spider hole.

TODD: Let's put that tape in. We'll take a look at the image back in December 2003 just after Saddam's capture at the hands of the coalition. And they're examining him.

POST: Look at this compliant, little man, in a sense, obediently opening his mouth for the dental exam, then submitting and indeed bending his head while they search for lice. This was a Saddam that had never been seen before.

Yet, I really want to emphasize, this is the core Saddam psychologically. Underneath that fierce facade, this is the man he has spent a lifetime defending against.

TODD: I also wanted to ask you about the beard and the symbolism here. At one point in detention, the beard came off. He has made a decision to grow it back and in a certain way. What is your take on the symbolism of the beard and what he's trying to put forth?

POST: Well, I'm struck by it.

Here he is thoughtfully stroking his beard, concentrated, focused, rather dapper in many ways. And I see a person who is quite conscious of his appearance.

TODD (voice-over): At one point, before a judge many years his junior, Saddam senses something, bears down, gathers his bravado, and seems to take over the proceedings.

POST: I can imagine him thinking, young man, do you realize whom you're talking to, I am the president of Iraq, and treating him with total contempt. And, indeed, that is what continues to play out, him taking charge of the courtroom.

TODD: Taking charge, asking the judge to introduce himself, questioning the judge's credentials and stating his own.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq.

POST: This is a theme he stresses throughout, not past tense: I am the president of the Republic of Iraq.

And, after all, he got a 99 percent-plus election tally. So for him, this whole procedure is illegitimate. TODD: A belief borne out at a critical moment. The judge begins to read charges, including the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. Saddam explodes.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Those animals. Don't attack. This is a legal session. I -- I am -- I know what I'm talking about. Anything that's outside the norms of a legal session...

POST: Very striking when he talks about the animals of Kuwait. He still sees that war as justified, a very political paranoid in full flower.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: At another point when Saddam referred to President Bush as a -- quote -- "criminal," Post says Saddam knew fully well the world was watching, wanted to convince the world that he was still in charge of Iraq and wanted to say to his Arab followers that they should applaud his courage in defying the West -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Todd, thanks very much. Good work.

The world waited to see Saddam today, but there's another picture many people are eager to see as well. And we'll show it to you. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in our Web question of the day; 57 percent of you say yes; 43 percent of you say no on, can Saddam Hussein get a fair trial? Remember, this is not a scientific poll.

The image of a thin, gaunt Saddam Hussein appearing in an Iraqi courtroom is a picture we'll remember, of course, for a long time. But there's also another picture of the day, something a little more uplifting. These are the sharpest images ever made of the rings of Saturn. They were collected by the Cassini spacecraft. And one scientist calls them an absolute treasure trove.

OK, a reminder, we're on weekdays 5:00 p.m. Eastern, as well as noon Eastern. Thanks very much for joining us.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired July 1, 2004 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now. Our first look of the new Saddam Hussein and he's looking a lot different than he did back in December when he was captured but will these new images encourage or discourage fresh terror attacks?
Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Saddam sounds off.

The ex-dictator defeated but defiant.

We'll take you inside the court.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I could hear the chains as they were being taken off around his waist and as the handcuffs were being taken off and everybody was electrified.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said to the judge, "but you know that this is all a theater by Bush, a criminal, to help him with his campaign" was the translation I got.

BLITZER: And we'll take you into the streets.

What makes him tick? We'll put Saddam on the couch with a psychiatrist who has profiled world leaders for the CIA.

Saddam's future. Who will come to his defense? Could they be called to testify?

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Thursday, July 1, 2004.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: He arrived in an armored bus under heavy guard. His shackles were removed just before he faced the judge. Dazed at first, he soon drew himself up as if he were still in command. CNN's chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour was in the courtroom when Saddam Hussein heard the charges against him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INT. CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As Saddam Hussein was walked into court, he looked somewhat broken, unsure of what was going on. Then he took his seat before an investigative judge who asked him to say his name.

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FMR. PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq.

AMANPOUR: What followed was a spirited exchange with the judge.

HUSSEIN: You also have to introduce yourself to me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Mr. Saddam, I am the investigative judge of the central court of Iraq.

AMANPOUR: Saddam asked whether he was permitted to have lawyers there. The judge said yes and read him his rights. The judge also read him seven charges including attacking the Kurds of Halabja with chemical weapons. To that, Saddam replied that he, too, heard about Halabja in the media, quote, "they say it happened under the rule of Saddam Hussein," he said, "poison gas was used there."

Saddam was also charged with the brutal suppression of the Kurd and Shiite rebellions right after the first Gulf War and of killing political and religious figures throughout his rule. When the judge read the last charge, the invasion of Kuwait, Saddam Hussein became angry, insisting that it was his duty as commander-in-chief to defend the Iraqi people from Kuwait who wanted to dramatically lower oil prices.

HUSSEIN: How can you punish that person while that person, given his title, has guarantees against being sued.

AMANPOUR: Saddam insulted the Kuwaitis and the judge reprimanded him, saying such language would not be permitted in a court of law. He also insulted President George W. Bush, saying this was a theater organized by, quote, "the criminal Bush to win his campaign."

Saddam also asked the judge who had jurisdiction over him. He asked him whether he was representing the occupation forces and he insisted that the occupation could not strip him of his presidency. When the judge asked Saddam to sign the court document showing he had been read his rights and he had been offered legal counsel, he refused, saying that he would not sign without a lawyer.

HUSSEIN: Please allow me -- allow me not to sign until the lawyers are present.

AMANPOUR: That ended the hearing. Saddam stood and was escorted out and back into U.S. military custody. Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Saddam Hussein wasn't the only defendant in court. 11 other members of his regime also made appearances, some better known than others.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Former deputy prime minister Tariq Aziz has been a familiar figure to many Americans since the 1991 Gulf War. He surrendered in April of last year. Aziz was the 8 of spades in the playing card deck distributed by coalition troops and number 25 on the Iraqi most wanted list. At his court appearance he denied personal involvement in any of the regime's alleged crimes. After the hearing, a pool (ph) reporter read from his notes about an exchange in Arabic between the judge and Aziz.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are criminal charges against you, not political. He said, "are these personal accusations or are they accusations against me in my capacity as a member of the Revolutionary Command Council or as a minister? But I need to know, are these charges personal? Is it Tariq Aziz who is accused who carried out these killings? If I'm a member of a government that made the mistake of killing someone, then there can be no direct accusation against me. I never killed anybody by any direct act. You are accused of this. If there's a crime, the moral responsibility rests with the leadership. But a member of the leadership cannot be held personally responsible."

BLITZER: Ali Hasan Al-Majid is Saddam Hussein's first cousin. He was known as "Chemical Ali" for his alleged role in poison gas attacks against Kurds and Iranians.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He comes in with a stick. He looked nothing like the Chemical Ali that you and I know. He looked, in his case, (UNINTELLIGIBLE)-faced. He had close cropped, mostly gray hair and he walked with a stick with a little crook on the top, a sort of shepherd's crook. He's a diabetic, apparently, and you know (UNINTELLIGIBLE) stage diabetes affects the lower limbs.

BLITZER: Chemical Ali was the king of spades in the playing card deck and number five on the most wanted list. He was captured on August 21st of last year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He said to the guard as he went out, the guard told were by this that he said, "I'm pleased" -- he said, "I thought the charges would be much worse."

BLITZER: Former Vice President Taha Yassin Ramadan was the 10 of diamonds and number 20 on the most wanted list. He was detained August 20th of last year.

Relatively unknown to Americans but the ace of diamonds in the coalition card deck and number four on the most wanted list, Abid Hamid Mahmud was the presidential secretary and he oversaw Saddam's personal security force. He was detained on June 16th of last year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: The 11 defendants on trial with Saddam Hussein also include Saddam Hussein's son-in-law and two half-brothers. CNN's Anderson Cooper is in Baghdad, he's been anchoring his own program from there, as well as giving us special insight into this week's historic events. Anderson Cooper is joining us now live once again from Baghdad. Anderson, so what happens next? What should we anticipate in the days and weeks to come?

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": Well, the legal battle continues now. Saddam Hussein has a team of lawyers, some 20 or more lawyers who have gathered right now in Amman, Jordan, in the neighboring country of Jordan, trying to figure out what happens next.

They have been hired through a Jordanian attorney by Saddam's wife and two daughters. I talked to one of those lawyers earlier today, Tim Hughes, who said that basically they plan on challenging this by saying that there's no way Saddam Hussein can receive a fair trial here in Baghdad, That the entire proceedings are illegal, illegitimate, because they stem from an illegal invasion, in his words, and that the governing power here as no authority to try Saddam Hussein because he is still the president of a sovereign nation of Iraq.

So the battle continues. It is going to be fought in the weeks and the months ahead. There's a long road to go. Prime Minister Allawi, the other day, telling the Iraqi people there is not going to be an actual trial until probably early 2005 at the very earliest, warning Iraqi people that they just are going to have to be patient. A long road ahead, Wolf.

BLITZER: Is it a forgone conclusion, Anderson, that Saddam Hussein won't be the first war crimes trial that other of his regime aides, other leaders will go first or will he go first?

COOPER: I think at this point nothing is a forgone conclusion. The word we were getting, though, is that some say he will not be the first one put on trial, that some of his lower-level aides will be put on trial first, the idea being to help build a case ultimately against Saddam Hussein, perhaps some of their testimony could be used against Saddam Hussein.

But again it seems at this point everything is up for grabs. This is a process the likes of which Iraq has never seen before, this government has not seen before, and they seem to be feeling their way as they go. And they do have a long way to go at that.

BLITZER: Anderson Cooper doing some excellent, very courageous reporting over the past several days from Iraq. Anderson, thank you very much.

This important note to our viewers. Anderson of course will be anchoring his own program tonight live from Baghdad. Once again that's "ANDERSON COOPER 360." 7:00 p.m. Eastern, 4:00 Pacific. A little bit less than two hours from now.

Saddam Hussein in his own words. We'll hear from the man himself, that's coming up. Plus, reaction to Saddam Hussein's appearance in court from the people of Iraq. We'll return to Baghdad. That's coming up straight ahead.

And could President Bush be called to testify at Saddam Hussein's trial? We'll hear from one of Saddam's lawyers on the defense's plans.

Psychology of the former dictator now standing trial. We'll examine Saddam's words and body language. Our special coverage of this historic day continues after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Iraqis, of course, were riveted by the scenes of their once-feared dictator facing a judge. In cafes and on street corners, they can speaking of little else. Let's go live to our senior international correspondent Brent Sadler. He's in Baghdad with reaction from there -- Brent.

BRENT SADLER, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Wolf. Yes indeed they were riveted when they could watch the TV in between the power cuts here. This was the beginning of a fair trial. But in the eyes of many Iraqis here it seemed too fair.

Some of told me they thought that Saddam should have been made to stand in front of the judge, he should have been manacled in the courtroom, the chains should not have taken off of him before he got inside.

Some others say that he was far too free to speak his views. He able to challenge the young judge who didn't admonish him enough. And really they were dissatisfied.

A number of them were also concerned that Saddam Hussein, while rejecting the charges against him, was perhaps able to embolden his supporters in parts of Iraq, particularly in the insurgents area of the so-called Sunni Triangle because of the standard of his performance, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) at times, Wolf, to adopt some of his old presidential mannerisms.

BLITZER: Brent, is there a sense that you're getting there that Saddam Hussein -- that people really believe Saddam Hussein is on trial and facing the death penalty? Are people sort of wondering what's going to happen next, if that's all real?

SADLER: Well first of all, they have to grasp what's happening here. This is unique for Iraq. They've got to get into that quantum leap from Iraqi president tyrant Saddam Hussein to Saddam the prisoner, the criminal under the Iraqi judicial system. That takes some getting used to.

What they were not expecting to see, having seen Saddam Hussein last December, was a man able to grasp a degree of control within that courtroom, challenge the system, try and score points off the judge, and really be allowed to get away with it. They were disappointed at that and surprised at that.

BLITZER: CNN's Brent Sadler reporting from Baghdad. Brent, thank you very much.

To our viewers, here's your chance to way in on this important story. Our "Web Question of the Day" is this: can Saddam Hussein get a fair trial in Iraq? You can vote right now. Go to cnn.com/wolf. We'll have the results a bit later in this broadcast.

Iraq, of course, was on the top of the agenda over at the White House today. Our senior White House correspondent John King standing by with more on that -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And, Wolf, one would think on this dramatic, historic day we might hear directly from the president of the United States as to his reaction of Saddam Hussein's day in court. But Mr. Bush not saying anything publicly about this at all.

Instead sticking to his schedule which included two public events including this, the swearing-in of his new ambassador to the United Nations, former Missouri Senator Jack Danforth.

This all by design. The White House did not want the president out publicly on this. It believes the trial is the business of the new Iraqi government and a chance for the new Iraqi government to prove its commitment to the rule of law.

But while the president said nothing in public, his spokesman said Mr. Bush was certainly well aware of what was going on.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president a short time ago was able to see some of the replay of the news coverage from the arraignment earlier today. The president is pleased that Saddam Hussein and his regime leaders are facing justice from the Iraqi people, in an Iraqi court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Similar reaction from Vice President Dick Cheney. He was traveling in New Orleans today. Mr. Cheney noting he was last in that city on the day Saddam Hussein's statue was toppled.

Mr. Cheney saying he was grateful that Saddam Hussein was facing justice, justice he denied his own citizens is how the vice president put it.

Now while Saddam Hussein is charged with crimes against his own people, charged with illegally invading Kuwait back in 1990, in his public remarks, the vice president continued to press a case that many insist the Bush administration is exaggerating. Vice President Cheney insisting Saddam Hussein had longstanding ties to al Qaeda including a detailed effort to provide shelter and sanctuary to the terrorist Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Zarqawi, along with some two dozen associates, al Qaeda members and affiliates ran poisons camps -- a poison camp in northern Iraq, which became a safe haven for Ansar al Islam, as well as al Qaeda terrorists fleeing our coalition in Afghanistan.

The Iraqi regime refused to turn over Zarqawi, even when twice being provided with detailed information about his presence in Baghdad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Now, as for Saddam Hussein's allegation that this is all theater designed to help the Bush reelection campaign, Wolf. The White House says that's not true dismissing that, suggesting and saying Saddam Hussein, over the course of this trial, is going to say a lot of things -- Wolf.

BLITZER: John King at the White House. John, thanks very much.

The dangers on the ground in Iraq. In just a moment, I'll speak live with the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, Duncan Hunter. He was in Baghdad this week.

Also, the psychology of Saddam, his gestures, his words. An expert's take on Saddam Hussein in court.

What tactic will his defense team take? We'll hear from one of Saddam Hussein's lawyers.

And an unexpected development in the Kobe Bryant case. What the prosecutor said that caught many off-guard.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Republican Congressman Duncan Hunter of California is the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. He's just returned to Washington from Iraq. He's joining us now live from San Diego. Mr. Chairman, welcome back. Glad you're back safe and sound. Thanks very much for joining us.

You think it was appropriate that Saddam Hussein appeared in this courtroom today without a lawyer?

REP. DUNCAN HUNTER (R), CALIFORNIA, CHAIRMAN OF THE HOUSE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Yes, I think it was appropriate, as long as he has a lawyer when he's just basically notified of the charges, he will be afforded a lawyer. As it was noted by several Iraqi leaders, he's going to be given a lot more justice than he gave lots of other people.

BLITZER: You heard Brent Sadler, I think, just report a lot of Iraqis were surprised that he had so much control in that courtroom today, that he wasn't even seen shackled, in handcuffs, anything along those lines. He looked almost like he was still in partial control.

HUNTER: Well, Saddam Hussein is a very ruthless person. I mean, this is a guy who very coolly could execute people with his own hand, by his own gun, kill his son-in-laws, gas people.

As I -- we were coming back through Ramstein, Germany, after the Iraq visit to visit our wounded people, and one of the medical leaders there, one of the surgeons, gave me a film of Saddam Hussein's people amputating the hands of businessmen because they hadn't done enough for the economy for Saddam Hussein.

So, this guy is very ruthless. And certainly he's -- he's very sure of himself, and he called the Kuwaitis, "dogs," I believe, said that Kuwait belonged to Iraq, denied any -- any participation in these mass murders. I think that was -- I think the people understand now why he needs to be brought to justice.

BLITZER: I'll ask you a question we're asking our viewers: Do you believe he can get a fair trial in Iraq?

HUNTER: Well, certainly. I think that -- I think, first, the evidence is pretty overwhelming evidence. I think the question people would ask is: Can you really kill 10,000 people with poison gas and have their bodies strewn across the hillsides with their babies and not be held responsible for it? Can you bulldoze those thousands of Shiites into open graves and not be responsible for it?

Again, this guy actually filmed a number of the executions that he ordered and some of which he carried out himself. So, he's going to have a lot of evidence against him, and certainly I think he can get as fair a trial there as anywhere.

I think it's appropriate that the Iraqi people are bringing him to justice, that this is not an American court, and I think a lot of Iraqis now understand the United States is not controlling this thing. We're moving this country over to the Iraqi people, we're handing it off -- we're going to hand off the military operation, and we're leaving.

BLITZER: So, you're not among those, clearly, who thinks the International Court of Justice and The Hague should be trying Saddam just like it's trying Slobodan Milosevic?

HUNTER: I think that's -- that's obviously one forum, but I think that it's absolutely appropriate that the Iraqi people try Saddam Hussein for this reason: He killed so many Iraqis and brutalized so many. And I think that it -- I think to some degree this validates the American operation.

One thing that Saddam Hussein was right on: He wouldn't be there, being brought to justice, in front of a court, if it wasn't for George Bush and lots of folks from the 101st Airborne, 1st Marines, and the 3rd Army and 4th Army and the 1st Striker Division and the Big Red One and all the rest of the people that did that operation. If it wasn't for the Americans, he wouldn't be there.

BLITZER: You're just back from Iraq, what was -- when you were there on the ground -- the biggest surprise that jumped out at you?

HUNTER: Well, you know, we did a -- I'll tell you what I was surprised about: the coolness of the Americans. We went up to Balad, and we had a couple of mortars come in while we were there. They've been mortared daily. The GIs there, men and women, didn't panic, they didn't stampede, they walked very coolly while they continued conversations to the bunkers.

When inside and when the all-clear was given, they came out. In fact, the one place we walked into when they had the mortar attack was a church service. And the church service, some of the GIs looked up like, "We're in a church service; don't interrupt us." And they kept right on with their service, then they put their combat gear on, they went back out and went back to their duties.

So, the coolness and the stability of the American GIs and Marines in Fallujah, and the Striker Brigade up in Mosul, was amazing, because you see in American this being whipped into a tizzy here in terms of this operation. And the people who are carrying it out, who are in the danger, are very cool.

BLITZER: Did you get the sense -- did you come back reassured that the troops have the equipment, the protective gear, the vests, the armor that they need? We hear all these reports that even now, more than a year after the war started, there are still shortages.

HUNTER: With respect to body armor, Wolf, we have 138,000 troops in country, we have 260,000 sets of body armor. So, I will say again on your show what I offer at every forum: If there's any GI who doesn't have a set of body armor, call me, have the folks get a hold of me.

Now, I did that last time and nobody called me yet. We have enough armor for -- to armor every GI in country two times. Now, that's the best body armor.

Now, other areas -- in terms of convoy protection, I think we need to have more steel on those convoys, and I think we need to have more gun trucks. And there's several other classified things I think we need to have. So, we put together a list of things that we think we need that are new developments that we think can make our military more efficient and more protected. And we're going to go back and really work on those in the next several weeks.

BLITZER: Duncan Hunter, the Chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, welcome home. Glad you're back safe and sound. Thanks very much.

HUNTER: Hey, thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Federal agents swoop in: A government raid on an Islamic center near Washington, D.C., but officials won't say why.

Saddam Hussein's lawyers: Can they really call on President Bush to testify?

And putting Saddam on the couch: A psychiatrist tells us what makes the ex-dictator tick. Stay with us.

ANNOUNCER: From our studios in Washington, once again, Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: Welcome back

Defending Saddam Hussein. Will his legal team get President Bush or Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to testify? We'll hear from one of Saddam's attorneys.

First, though, a quick check of some other headlines.

CNN has learned from sources that officials from three federal agencies raided an Islamic center in Fairfax, Virginia, earlier today. That's just outside Washington, D.C. One source says officials have been scrutinizing the finances of the Institute of Islamic and Arabic Sciences in America since 9/11. Another source says no arrests were expected.

The lead prosecutor in the Kobe Bryant rape case won't be taking the lead in the upcoming trial. District attorney Mark Hurlbert says three other attorneys will handle day-to-day matters, but he says he will provide general oversight. Hurlbert cited other duties.

Former NBA star Manute Bol is in a Connecticut hospital after the cab he was riding in rolled over last night, killing the driver. Police say the 7-foot, 7'' Bol was thrown from the vehicle. And a longtime friend says the 43-year-old suffered a broken neck.

Now back to our top story. Formal charges against Saddam Hussein will be worked out over the next few months following his appearance in an Iraqi court earlier today.

CNN's Zain Verjee has been looking into the former dictator's possible defense strategies.

Zain is joining us now live from the CNN Center.

What have you discovered, Zain?

ZAIN VERJEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, I spent about 10 minutes this morning speaking to one of Saddam Hussein's lawyers.

Saddam may have looked thinner and more tired, but he was defiant. One of his statements today, though, was far from delusional, as some may think it was. Listen to what he says and then to how the defense attorney picks up on it to form a core of the defense strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SADDAM HUSSEIN, FORMER IRAQI PRESIDENT (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq, is it allowed to call a president elected by the people and charge him according to a law that was enacted under his will and the will of the people? VERJEE (voice-over): These statements lend a clue to the legal tactics Saddam's 20-member defense team may adopt. I spoke to Tim Hughes, who's on Saddam's defense team. He rationalizes Saddam's statements and then builds on them.

TIM HUGHES, ATTORNEY FOR SADDAM HUSSEIN: The invasion was illegitimate and the overthrowing of the regime remains illegitimate. He therefore remains the president.

VERJEE: And, as the legal president, the defense is likely to argue, under Iraqi law, he can't be prosecuted, particularly by an illegitimate tribunal set up during the occupation.

In the course of our controversy, Hughes outlined more of what the defense wants, direct answers to Saddam, a more open, independent and fair judicial process, the trial moved to another venue, possibly the Hague, a health assessment to see what Saddam can withstand before and during the trial, and review evidence it hasn't received yet.

I then asked Hughes, would the defense call President George W. Bush as its witness, Vice President Dick Cheney? What about Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld? Hughes' response?

HUGHES: I don't really, at this very early stage -- the charges have only been laid today. And we have not even met with him or had an opportunity of considering the evidence.

(CROSSTALK)

VERJEE (on camera): But if you had the choice, as a defense lawyer, if it was your choice, would you do that?

HUGHES: Well, I'm afraid, although you've asked me four times, I'm...

(CROSSTALK)

VERJEE: But I haven't got an answer yet.

HUGHES: I'm sorry. I'm not in a position to answer that.

VERJEE (voice-over): We pressed Saddam's attorney, but couldn't get specifics. So we asked a war crimes expert.

DAVID SCHEFFER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR AT LARGE: I suspect defense counsel will try to add to their witness lists U.S. officials going all the way up to President Bush. That is to be expected.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VERJEE: Saddam's defense attorney says this is nothing but a show trial for the media's benefit. Iraqi officials say this will be fair and transparent trial and that it's not about settling old scores -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Zain, based on all your conversations, is there a difference between calling President Bush, let's say, or Defense Secretary Rumsfeld to come and testify if the defense wants one or both or maybe Vice President Cheney as well?

VERJEE: Well, what we're hearing from war crimes experts is that the judges in the court are going to decide who qualifies for a witness for the trial and who doesn't. And even if a request is made for President Bush, Rumsfeld or Cheney, it doesn't mean that any of them have to appear -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Zain Verjee reporting for us from the CNN Center -- Zain, thank you very much.

And, as we've been reporting, today, the world got its first extended look at Saddam Hussein since he was deposed more than a year ago. The former Iraqi president was alternately downcast and nervous, then combative and energized. We're going to take a few moments now to see and hear some of the highlights of his 30-minute court appearance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Profession, former president of the Republic of Iraq.

HUSSEIN (through translator): No, present, current. It's the will of the people.

I have to know, you are an investigative judge of the center court of Iraq? What resolution, what law formed this court? Oh, the coalition forces? So you are an Iraqi that -- you are representing the occupying forces?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): No, I'm an Iraqi representing Iraq.

HUSSEIN (through translator): But you are...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I was appointed by a presidential decree under the former -- former regime.

HUSSEIN (through translator): So you are reiterating that every Iraqi should respect the Iraqi law. So the law that was instituted before represents the will of the people, right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Yes, God willing.

HUSSEIN (through translator): So you should not work under the jurisdiction of the coalition forces.

I'm not complicating matters. Are you a judge? You are a judge. And judges, they value the law, and they rule by law, right? Right?

Right is a relative issue. For us, right is our heritage in the Koran, Sharia, right? I'm not talking about Saddam Hussein, whether he was a citizen or in other capacities. I'm not holding fast to my position, but to respect the will of the people that decided to choose Saddam Hussein as the leader of the revolution.

Therefore, when I say president of the Republic of Iraq, it's not a formality or holding fast to a position, but, rather, to reiterate to the Iraqi people that I respect its will.

Let me understand something, who is the defendant? Any defendant, when he comes to a court, before that, there should be investigation. This is not a court, this is investigation. This is investigation now.

Let me clarify this point. Then I hope that you remember you are a judge empowered by the people. It doesn't really matter whether you convict me or not, that's not what's important. But what's important is that you remember that you're a judge.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Then don't mention anything occupying forces. This is not good. Then I judge by in the name of people.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Then judge in the name of people. This is the Iraqi way.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Saddam Hussein berating the young judge in that courtroom earlier today.

A grim new milestone in U.S. casualties, meanwhile.

Plus the trial of Saddam Hussein, I'll speak about Iraq with our world affairs analyst, the former Defense Secretary William Cohen.

Plus, what he said and how he looked. An expert looks at the psychology of Saddam Hussein.

And the rings of Saturn, the finest images ever seen by man, we'll show them to you. We'll get to all of that.

First, though, a quick look at some other news making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Three thousand South Korean troops are training for deployment to Iraq starting next month. It will be South Korea's largest overseas military mission since the Vietnam War. And it comes despite local protests, fueled in part by last month's abduction and murder in Iraq of a South Korea civilian.

Standing guard. With the Athens Olympics now a month and a half away, Greek security forces are beginning to take their positions guarding Olympic venues. They say they'll use the remaining time to familiarize themselves with their locations.

Hong Kong demonstration. Hundreds of thousands of protesters marched through downtown Hong Kong to demand full democracy from the Chinese government. The march marked the seven anniversary of Beijing's control of Hong Kong, formerly a British colony.

Flowering achievement. They say a rose is a rose is a rose. But no one has ever seen a rose like this. Japanese bioengineers say they have created the first true blue rose, containing a pigment found in other blue flowers.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Earlier today, I had a chance to speak with our world affairs analyst, the former Defense Secretary William Cohen. We spoke about Saddam Hussein, Iraq, and more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Secretary Cohen, as usual, thanks very much for joining us.

What do you make of what we saw in Baghdad today, Saddam Hussein in court?

WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, it's clear that he's lost some weight, but apparently, he's also been getting exercise at least a couple times a day, and plus on a diet that would not be the equivalent of a five-star restaurant. So the thinness struck me. But secondly he appeared to be very much in command of his faculties, so the defense of insanity doesn't appear to be available to him, based on what we saw today.

BLITZER: He seemed very sane. He seemed very alert to a certain degree.

COHEN: He seemed very alert. He seemed very defiant, aware of the nature of the charges, prepared to rebut them, at least verbally.

So I think that he is going to be a tough witness to contend with when the time comes. That time should be perhaps next year and not soon.

BLITZER: I hear different assessments, what this video, these dramatic pictures, the impact it will have on the transition of power in Iraq, whether it will encourage the insurgents to go out and strike more or demoralize them and maybe help the new interim Iraqi government. What's your take?

COHEN: I don't think anyone can predict that right now. I think the most important thing is for him to have had his preliminary day in court and then to disappear for a while and allow the process, the gathering of evidence, the collation of that evidence, the gathering of the materials that will be presented to a new court, so to speak. And all of this should be done with him not in the public eye, because we still have a very serious insurgency underway. We still have violence being visited upon the Iraqi people and the U.S. and coalition forces. And so to have him dominate the headlines, so to speak, on any kind of prolonged basis would be very damaging to the interim government.

BLITZER: When I interviewed Salem Chalabi, who is the head of the special tribunal process in Iraq, the other day, he said his biggest concern, his biggest fear, that Saddam Hussein could escape or be killed in some way. And that's why they've asked the U.S. to provide physical security. This sounds like it's a huge problem out there.

COHEN: It is a huge problem. And these concerns are legitimate. For him to be either assassinated or allowed to escape would be I think very devastating to the interim government and have an impact here politically upon the United States, and so I think it's important that he be safely contained until such time as he can be brought to trial.

BLITZER: What else should the U.S. government be doing now to try to make sure this new interim government in Iraq gets going and that there can be free and fair elections sometime next year?

COHEN: Well, the most important thing is to continue to try and provide security. The most important thing for the Iraqi people and for the interim government is to try to reduce the level of violence taking place, mostly against the Iraqi people themselves.

But they're going to continue to attack the pipelines, the power stations, try to kill political leaders, attack the police. All of this can undermine the legitimacy and effectiveness of the interim government, and so security has got to be the predominant concern for the United States and the coalition forces.

BLITZER: You are just back from Russia. You spent time in Europe. Is this trans-Atlantic alliance still in trouble or have things patched over in the aftermath of the NATO meeting, which just concluded in Turkey?

COHEN: I think they've been patched over somewhat. I think we have a long way to go. There's still a good deal of resentment toward the United States. And that is not going to be healed quickly. We'll have to work at it.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Is there resentment in Russia, too? Or is it just France and Germany?

COHEN: No, in Russia, I think there's an element of distrust that still exists. For example, who is Putin? Is he democrat or autocrat? Do we have the rule of law or the law of rule taking place in Russia. So the Russians look with some suspicion upon the enlargement of NATO, the enlargement of the E.U. and whether this has a direct impact upon their security interests and their future relationship with the United States and the West. So there's still an element of distrust that we have to overcome.

And the conference that we had, as a matter of fact, with looking through each other's eyes, how do they see us and how do we see them? And then try to break down some of those barriers that still exist.

BLITZER: A lot of work still to be done. Secretary Cohen, welcome back home. Thanks very much.

COHEN: Pleasure to be here. Thanks.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And we're getting this potentially very significant story in from the Reuters News Agency just now, King Abdullah of Jordan saying for the first time that, if asked by the new Iraqi government, he will in fact be prepared to send troops, Jordanian military troops, to serve in Iraq.

"My message to the Iraqi president and the prime minister," he tells the BBC, "is tell us what you want, tell us how we can help, and we have 110 percent support for this." If this happens, Jordan would be the first Arab country to send troops to Iraq. We'll monitor the story for you, our viewers.

We're also dissecting today's proceedings in Baghdad. The former dictator's body language, his demeanor, even his choice of words under a microscope. See what we found out. That's coming up next.

Also still to come, circling Saturn, the planet's rings revealed.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We saw striking images from that Iraqi courtroom today. Saddam Hussein was humbled, but not humble, showing flashes of the arrogance he displayed as a feared dictator. What's behind the bravado of today, though?

CNN's Brian Todd joining us now live with more on that -- Brian?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, apparently, behind that bravado is an incredible psychology. And to get at that, we looked at today's events with a man who may know Saddam's mind as well as anyone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): Reporters described him as nervous at first, taking a while to hit his stride, but once the defiance kicked in, it was vintage Saddam Hussein.

We brought in Dr. Jerrold Post, founder of the CIA's Psychology Profiling Division, who later did his own profile of Saddam, to give us his take on the man's performance.

(on camera): I want to ask you first about his appearance overall. I think that struck a lot of viewers, just seeing the way he looked in the courtroom? What is your take on his appearance?

DR. JERROLD POST, PSYCHOLOGICAL PROFILER: I'm really struck. This is Saddam Hussein in command. He looks intense, focused. He's concentrating. And he's even almost -- he gives an appearance here of almost lecturing to the judge. What a remarkable contrast this decisive man in charge is with that amazing image we saw emerging from the spider hole.

TODD: Let's put that tape in. We'll take a look at the image back in December 2003 just after Saddam's capture at the hands of the coalition. And they're examining him.

POST: Look at this compliant, little man, in a sense, obediently opening his mouth for the dental exam, then submitting and indeed bending his head while they search for lice. This was a Saddam that had never been seen before.

Yet, I really want to emphasize, this is the core Saddam psychologically. Underneath that fierce facade, this is the man he has spent a lifetime defending against.

TODD: I also wanted to ask you about the beard and the symbolism here. At one point in detention, the beard came off. He has made a decision to grow it back and in a certain way. What is your take on the symbolism of the beard and what he's trying to put forth?

POST: Well, I'm struck by it.

Here he is thoughtfully stroking his beard, concentrated, focused, rather dapper in many ways. And I see a person who is quite conscious of his appearance.

TODD (voice-over): At one point, before a judge many years his junior, Saddam senses something, bears down, gathers his bravado, and seems to take over the proceedings.

POST: I can imagine him thinking, young man, do you realize whom you're talking to, I am the president of Iraq, and treating him with total contempt. And, indeed, that is what continues to play out, him taking charge of the courtroom.

TODD: Taking charge, asking the judge to introduce himself, questioning the judge's credentials and stating his own.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Saddam Hussein, the president of the Republic of Iraq.

POST: This is a theme he stresses throughout, not past tense: I am the president of the Republic of Iraq.

And, after all, he got a 99 percent-plus election tally. So for him, this whole procedure is illegitimate. TODD: A belief borne out at a critical moment. The judge begins to read charges, including the 1990 invasion of Kuwait. Saddam explodes.

HUSSEIN (through translator): Those animals. Don't attack. This is a legal session. I -- I am -- I know what I'm talking about. Anything that's outside the norms of a legal session...

POST: Very striking when he talks about the animals of Kuwait. He still sees that war as justified, a very political paranoid in full flower.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: At another point when Saddam referred to President Bush as a -- quote -- "criminal," Post says Saddam knew fully well the world was watching, wanted to convince the world that he was still in charge of Iraq and wanted to say to his Arab followers that they should applaud his courage in defying the West -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Todd, thanks very much. Good work.

The world waited to see Saddam today, but there's another picture many people are eager to see as well. And we'll show it to you. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Here's how you're weighing in our Web question of the day; 57 percent of you say yes; 43 percent of you say no on, can Saddam Hussein get a fair trial? Remember, this is not a scientific poll.

The image of a thin, gaunt Saddam Hussein appearing in an Iraqi courtroom is a picture we'll remember, of course, for a long time. But there's also another picture of the day, something a little more uplifting. These are the sharpest images ever made of the rings of Saturn. They were collected by the Cassini spacecraft. And one scientist calls them an absolute treasure trove.

OK, a reminder, we're on weekdays 5:00 p.m. Eastern, as well as noon Eastern. Thanks very much for joining us.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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