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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports
The Bush-Kerry Battle
Aired July 14, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE:
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The motion is not agreed to.
ANNOUNCER: The gay marriage amendment doesn't even get to the altar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ultimately, we will win this fight. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman.
ANNOUNCER: John Kerry's choice for vice president heads off on his first solo campaign trip since the big announcement.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What we need in the White House is somebody who has the strength, courage and leadership to take responsibility and be accountable not only for what's good, but for what's bad.
ANNOUNCER: Is anybody feeling optimistic about the election?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It doesn't matter whether their message is delivered with a frown or a smile. It's the same old pessimism.
ANNOUNCER: Cheer up. We're taking stock of the presidential race today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE, where we bring you not the same old pessimism.
Well, instead of showing up for today's vote on the gay amendment marriage, John Kerry chose to hide in Boston. John Edwards, meanwhile, conveniently left town.
(LAUGHTER) JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Hiding in Boston. Absolutely. What a place to hide.
Instead of showing up to protect the Constitution, save the environment or get us out of the mess in Iraq, President Bush is practicing what John Edwards calls the politics of division. So it's our duty to bring America together -- together for the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The U.S. Senate today had the good sense to take the Republican Party's latest effort to divide America and send back where it belongs, to the legislative dump. The Republicans needed 60 votes to bring up that constitutional amendment banning gay marriage and 67 to pass it. They only got 48, a miserable failure, if there ever was one.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Even Senator John McCain called the amendment -- quote -- "antithetical to every core philosophy of the Republicans." A slight correction, Senator. It's antithetical to every core philosophy of all Americans. Jobs are going overseas. The deficit is up. Our standing in the world is hurting. Terrorists strike America again and again. And what are Americans -- Republicans talking about? Gay marriage.
CARLSON: You know, I think you raise a pretty interesting, a pretty good point. John Kerry's opposition to gay marriage bothers me. He hasn't explained why he doesn't think that gay people have the right to get married. I don't want to accuse him of bigotry. And I'm not going to, James.
But I think you're probably as bothered as I am.
CARVILLE: No, I'm not.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: By his core opposition to allowing gay people to get married.
CARVILLE: You know this. What Rick Santorum and Tom DeLay and all your heroes in the Republican Party are doing is, they want to pass a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: John Kerry says, let the states decide.
CARLSON: No, but John Kerry says he's against it. He says he's against gay marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let the states decide.
CARLSON: He thinks it's wrong. He thinks it's wrong, James.
CARVILLE: Why, with all the problems we have and with our troops bogged down, with us being hated around the world, with our deficit exploding...
CARLSON: It's a good question. It's a good question.
CARVILLE: ... why in the hell are they sitting in the Congress of the United States talking about this?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They're trying to appease -- the DeLay-Santorum- Carlson wing of the party is trying to appease the right-wing.
CARLSON: You know, maybe you can talk to your friend John Kerry and open his mind a little bit, bring him into this century.
CARVILLE: No, he's against this stupid amendment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, speaking of John Kerry, Mr. Kerry has never claimed to be a new Democrat. And that's pretty good, because he's not.
The federal bureaucracy would in fact likely grow even more Byzantine under a Kerry administration. How do we know this? Well, take a look at his campaign. According to today "Washington Post," the Kerry campaign now includes 37 separate domestic policy councils, 27 separate foreign policy groups, each with scores of members. The Justice Policy Task Force alone has 195 members. The environmental group is roughly the same size, as is the Agricultural and Rural Development Council. That sounds like a lot of fun.
Kerry counts more than 200 economists as his advisers. The irony, of course, is that, even with all these deep thinkers working for him, Kerry is still running the most conventional, interest-group- approved Democratic campaign since his former boss, Michael Dukakis, with not a single fresh or inspired idea. Even Democrats know that.
Kerry should learn the lesson of the Albanian Parliament. Just because a lot of people meet in one room doesn't mean they have anything interesting to say.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: First of all, anybody can call themselves a Kerry policy adviser, which apparently
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, this is by his campaign's description. CARVILLE: But you know what? By the ditch that Bush has taken this country, and it is going to take a lot of people to get together and get it out of. And I will guarantee you that.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, but, James, wouldn't, honestly -- wouldn't you think, after 20 years in the U.S. Senate, he would know what he thinks?
CARVILLE: He knows exactly what he's doing.
Back when Congress was debating the so-called Medicare reform, lots of retirees worried it would just give businesses an excuse to cut benefits they already had. Huh. They were right to worry. The government now estimates that one-third of all retirees with employee- sponsored drug coverage will lose it in 2006. That's nearly four million people who have good insurance now and won't in two years.
This is the classic Republican tactic. The drug companies get together and conspire with the Republicans, who control Congress, to write a bill which ends up letting them split the profits. They take your money and give it to the companies, while leaving senior citizens and people who actually need the medicine with nothing.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: So let me just see -- let me just see if I have this right.
CARVILLE: Yes.
CARLSON: Millions of Americans will now become more dependent on the federal government to live. This sounds like a classic Democratic scheme to me.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And that's why I opposed it from the beginning.
CARVILLE: This is your money.
CARVILLE: This is a huge expansion of the federal government.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Republicans, drug companies.
CARLSON: Right. I know you're turning it to the drug companies.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know what, actually? You know what, James? The drug companies do a pretty good job of curing people's diseases.
(APPLAUSE) (CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Your money is going to the Republicans, who give it here. And you get the shaft right out there, Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You lose your insurance. You don't get the coverage. They get the money.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That is such a shameless lie. Actually, what happens is, the federal government gets more power.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You get the shaft. They get everything. What a deal.
CARLSON: But I'm sure, under socialized medicine with John Kerry, it will be a lot better.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, first, they snubbed her in the veep pick, choosing instead yet another rich white guy, John Edwards. Now the Kerry campaign has apparently told New York Senator and folk hero Hillary Clinton that she cannot speak at the Democratic Convention in Boston later this month.
Al Sharpton is speaking. So are Ted Kennedy and Howard Dean, but not Hillary Clinton. Why not? Well, the campaign claims Mrs. Clinton didn't want to give a speech. She's just not very ambitious. Raise your hand if you believe that.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Actually, Hillary won't be speaking because Democratic officials consider her too polarizing, which is another way of saying too embarrassing, more embarrassing even than Ted Kennedy, if that's possible.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And so the party of women's empowerment is blowing off the most empowered woman of them all, Hillary Clinton. Here's my question. Shouldn't somebody be protesting this decision? Shouldn't the handful of principled feminists left, the ones who did not shill for Bill Clinton, shouldn't they hold a rally or a protest or a teach- in or a sit-in or something, burn a bra?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Of course they should. And we look forward to their civil disobedience.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What is this? I thought this is the party of women's empowerment.
CARVILLE: You won't have to look at it, because let me tell you, every campaign does dumb things. Some campaigns every now and then do a really dumb thing. This is a really dumb thing. And John Kerry will get this fixed in 48 hours.
CARLSON: I don't know what he has against her.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It was just a dumb thing they did.
CARLSON: He couldn't find a single qualified woman to run on his ticket with him? I'm sorry. I'm morally offended.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I know you're morally offended.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: You know, all you got to do, Tucker, is worry about gay marriage, because that's the core of what your party is really about. You know what? We are going to expand the thing.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Worry about
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... and gays getting married.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I hope that John Kerry will drop his antiquated, bigoted opposition to gay marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They will fix this. They will fix this. He's against the gay marriage amendment. I don't know how to tell you that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm afraid we need to move on to a commercial break. CARVILLE: We prayed at the senior citizen's
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, we will continue our 'round-the-clock vigil on behalf of the snubbed Hillary Clinton when we return.
But, meanwhile, John Edwards heads out on his own for the first time to sell John Kerry. It's a tall order. Can you even imagine? Is he up to it? That's our question. We'll debate the Bush-Kerry battle just ahead.
And later, Jerry Springer will have a surprising role at the upcoming Democratic National Convention in Boston. We'll tell you what it is.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: The Republican Party shot itself in the foot today. As a matter of fact, it blew its whole leg off. George W. Bush and his buddies on the radical right tried to embarrass John Kerry and the Democrats by forcing a vote to write the anti-gay bigotry into the U.S. Constitution and couldn't even muster a simple majority. They won't be able to muster a majority in November either, not that they did the last time.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: In the CROSSFIRE from Capitol Hill is Democratic Gregory Meeks in New York. And here with us at the George Washington University is the beautiful, gorgeous, lovely Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen.
(CROSSTALK)
REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R), FLORIDA: That's the only opinion with which I agree with.
CARLSON: Amen.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You are, Congresswoman.
CARLSON: Now, Congressman Meeks, thanks for joining us. There's been a feeling, I think a bipartisan feeling, really for the last couple of years, that John Kerry, for all his experience and his undeniably high intelligence, doesn't really know what he believes.
"The Washington Post" this morning I think added to this feeling by listing all the different campaign advisory councils the Kerry campaign has set up. We're going to put a graphic up on the screen. You can read them.
There are 37 separate domestic policy councils, 27 foreign policy groups, 195 members of the Justice Policy Task Force, 200 members of the environmental group, 200 members of the agricultural group, and 200 economic advisers.
What's the message here? If you like the DMV, you'll love the Kerry administration? What do you read into this?
(LAUGHTER)
REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D), NEW YORK: No.
Kerry's is a very focused individual. He's an individual who understands and takes and accepts opinions from those to formulate his opinion. It's just basically what he talks about when you talk about foreign policy, how we should include other individuals, so that we can be sure of what we're doing and come up with a policy that works.
And John Kerry is man that is able to absorb and to take in and then to focus and direct policy. That's what he's done his whole career and that is what he'll do as president of the United States.
CARLSON: That's a pretty smooth answer, Congressman. I congratulate you for defending the hard-to-defend.
But I wonder if you could comment on one of the key decisions these groups are making, this reported again today in "The Washington Post" -- quote -- "One task force is still arguing about whether it should be titled -- quote -- 'The Council on Babies Children and Youth or Just Children and Youth.'"
I mean, that's where -- when you send your 100 bucks to the Kerry campaign, that's where it goes, to councils that make those kind of key decisions, what they should be named?
MEEKS: No, what you're doing is, you're pulling straws out of the hat.
When you're talking about getting involved in everyday nuts-and- bolts decisions, we have high-level people who are of ultimate, who have great vision. They sit down. Senator Kerry listens. He then digests it. And then he makes the decisions. He's a man that is of action and takes the nation in a proper way. But he knows how to include people. He's not one that's arrogant and tries to exclude people.
CARVILLE: Congresswoman, let's get away from really important issues like a subcommittee of the subcommittee in the Kerry campaign and go to a relevant thing, like they fact that we're stuck in Iraq and we haven't found any weapons of mass destruction and our intelligence is terrible.
(LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: A year ago today -- a year ago today, this is what President Bush had to say about the intelligence that he had received. This was four months after we had been looking for the weapons of mass destruction and it was clear that we weren't going to find them. Let me show you what the president had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Let me first say that, you know, I think the intelligence I get is darned good intelligence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: OK. Now, here's a man that he says that he had darned good intelligence. Today, Tony Blair says, I take full responsibility.
How is anybody going to vote for that? Do you think really think that?
ROS-LEHTINEN: That is the same intelligence that France had, that Germany had, that Russia had, the same intelligence that everyone in the U.N. had, when, to a country, they voted unanimously, resolution after resolution, a dozen resolutions saying that Saddam Hussein is not complying.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Do you think he had darned -- do you agree with him that he had darned good -- what kind of judgment does that say, that that man sits there and says -- why did Tony Blair say, I take responsibility?
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: We had the -- we had the next -- best intelligence that anybody had. No one disagreed with us.
CARVILLE: So you're satisfied? You're satisfied with the CIA's intelligence?
ROS-LEHTINEN: And we are willing to say, in a bipartisan way, like Senator Roberts' Intelligence Committee said, that they were false and that we all shared them, the international community, and that our intelligence gathering community is going to improve. And that's what President Bush is doing.
CARVILLE: So you -- you agree with President Bush he had darned good intelligence?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Every one in the United Nations agreed that the intelligence was good.
CARVILLE: OK, you all agree, Republicans. Intelligence is good.
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: And we relied on that.
It is very difficult to infiltrate these terrorist organizations who blow themselves up.
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: If you'd like to volunteer, you could be the human intelligence and infiltrate these groups.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We don't need me.
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: These are groups that want to blow themselves up for a cause. And it's very difficult for us to have good intelligence.
CARVILLE: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Meeks, sometimes I feel -- and this one of those times -- like the only feminist left in America.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: It seems to me, if you're John Kerry and you're looking for people to speak at your convention, it's obvious that you want not simply a strong woman, but indeed the strongest woman, the most famous woman, the most admired woman in your party. And that of course is Hillary Clinton, a member of your congressional delegation. And, instead, John Kerry's has said to Senator Clinton, no dice. You can't speak. Be quiet. Go home and bake cookies. Aren't you offended by this? I know I am.
MEEKS: Well, no, John Kerry did not say that. Senator Clinton will participate in the convention. She will be there. And, most importantly, her husband will also, the former president of the United States, speak.
And we will have women that are represented across the board. The key with the Democratic Party is, we have got so much talent and so many people that represents what America is about that it's hard to fit everybody in just the four days that we have at convention. And so Hillary will be a part of it, as she is very much a part of this campaign and she will be out on the campaign trail, most importantly, letting folks know that John Kerry is the right man with the plan for America. CARLSON: Yes. So, you've got time for Howard Dean and Jimmy Carter, but not for Hillary.
Let me ask you this question, then. Does it bother you, considering, as you said, the Democratic Party represents so many people, that the Kerry campaign couldn't find a single, not one, woman or member of an ethnic minority group qualified enough to be vice president and instead they got this rich white guy? That doesn't bother you at all?
MEEKS: Well, look -- but -- no. Let's -- Senator Kerry picked the right person, John Edwards, to be vice president. There's no question about that.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEKS: It seems to me ironic that the other side is going to talk about -- a party that is basically monolithic talking about the diversity we have in the Democratic Party. So, clearly, I think that Senator
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congresswoman, myself and the Republicans on the Intelligence Committee say that our intelligence stunk. You and President Bush said it's great.
Let me show you another Republican I'm agreeing with and see if you can team up, if we can make this. I'm going to show you what Senator John McCain said about this gay rights thing, the constitutional amendment we're talking about. "It is antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of the Republicans. It usurps from the states the fundamental authority they've always possessed and imposes a federal remedy for a problem that most states do not believe confronts them."
Now, would you agree with Senator John McCain and James Carville or do you side with President Bush that these gay people are a threat to our way of life?
ROS-LEHTINEN: As in many things, I agree with Senator John McCain. I voted for the Defense of Marriage Act, which President Clinton, your pal, signed into law.
CARVILLE: Are you for this constitutional amendment?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Defining -- defining marriage as between a man and woman.
However, I agree with Senator McCain that we do not need a divisive constitutional amendment as our nation is still evolving on a controversial issue and civil unions becomes something that we should discuss at the states level. So I agree with Senator McCain.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We have you and McCain and Carville against Bush and DeLay and....
ROS-LEHTINEN: There we go. There we go.
CARLSON: We're down to less than a minute.
But,very quickly, aren't you appalled by John Kerry's opposition to gay marriage? Why is he against letting gay people get married? Can you explain it to me?
MEEKS: Well, John Kerry talks about what his personally beliefs are, based upon his religious beliefs, as all.
What's great about America is that you should be able to express your opinion about what you feel and your religious belief, but not infringe upon others. And so it is perfectly fit for John Kerry to talk about what he believes personally, but not try to impose that belief on others. Let the states -- I agree. Let the states decide, etcetera. So John Kerry is just fitting within why -- why it's good to be an American and why I think he would be a great American president.
CARLSON: All right.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Why have we had this guy on the bench? Congressman, you get out there. You're a great spokesman. You're doing a great job. Thank you, sir.
CARLSON: All right, next in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask why John Edwards isn't helping John Kerry more in North Carolina, indeed, not really helping him at all.
And what is the acting director of the CIA saying about criticism of his agency's work? Wolf Blitzer has details of his exclusive next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, the nation's top spy, the acting CIA director, John McLaughlin, defends his agency against Senate charges it botched the WMD investigation. I spoke with him at length just a short time ago. Join us for a CNN television exclusive.
Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge visits Boston to preview plans and to review how best to protect the Democratic National Convention from terrorists. We'll talk with him live.
And a major setback today for the fight to outlaw same-sex marriage.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," where we ask questions even faster than John Edwards can bring a smile to voters' faces.
With the rest of us, Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks, his first appearance on CROSSFIRE, and a damn impressive one, and regular guest Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen of Florida, always an impressive guest.
Thank you so much for being here.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Meeks, John Kerry picks the sitting senator from North Carolina to run with him and he is still losing in the latest poll by 15 points in North Carolina. I would have thought John Edwards would have brought more votes with him.
MEEKS: Well, depending upon which poll you look at will tell you differently. And I say the poll that counts will be the poll that takes place on November 2.
Clearly, if you look at crowd that came out in Raleigh, North Carolina, recently this past weekend, unprecedented, and you look at the energy that is happening in North Carolina -- here is a state that once you would think that was just clearly going to be a Bush state. But I know one thing. You can sleep on that 15 points if you want. If you all want to take it for granted, take it for granted, but see us November 2.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: We are -- we haven't had the Democratic Convention yet. President Bush, the incumbent, is down probably average around three or four points right now. How concerned are you that your candidate is going to go into his opponent's convention down in the polls?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Well, that's not a problem for us, because we have got to look like an underdog. We have got to fire up our base. It is all going to be turnout. Florida, my home state, is going to be a pivotal state. We hope that we are not counting votes by January. We hope that we will be done on election night.
And, in all these swing states, you're going to see that they know that the president is a man who is handling the economy well, understands the global war against terrorism and understands the needs for the future generations. So he's going to be the man to beat. And we don't mind being the underdog. We know how to fight. (APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Meeks, apart from Hillary Clinton, who has been excluded, just about everybody else in the Democratic universe is speaking at convention, Al Sharpton, Al Gore, Howard Dean, but not Michael Dukakis. He's never invited to address the convention.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And I think it's outrageous. And I wonder if you will be brave enough to stand up on his behalf and say to the leaders of your party, let Michael speak.
MEEKS: Well, when you think -- when you join the Democratic Party, then we'll take your opinion.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
MEEKS: However, let me tell you something. We're going to put up the best people that we have. And Michael Dukakis is a part of our party. We have a big tent. And we welcome everyone.
(BELL RINGING)
MEEKS: I wish we could extend the convention so that we can have all the great Democrats talk. By sure, I think that we outnumber the numbers of Republicans and we will put on a show.
CARLSON: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We need to get Congressman Gregory Meeks to speak at the convention.
CARLSON: Gregory Meeks from New York state, thank you so much.
Congressman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen from Florida, thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right.
Well, first off, free Michael Dukakis.
Second, are the Democrats headed for a floor fight in Boston? Find out what Jerry Springer has planned for the Democratic Party's convention next. What a freak show.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, once upon a time, long before he started refereeing television battles between sexy secret hookers, lying, cheating lovers, and battlin' bed mates, Jerry Springer was a TV newsman of sorts. His peers considered him a pretty good one. Springer is the recipient of 10 Emmy awards for his work in local news.
So who could better be suited to cover the Democratic Convention as a special correspondent for Cleveland's 19 Action News? Jerry Springer, who is also a convention delegate. He promises his reports will not be boring. Maybe he'll start a floor fight. News at 11:00.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE. Thank you for joining us.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
Free Hillary Clinton.
See you tomorrow.
(APPLAUSE)
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Aired July 14, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville and Paul Begala; on the right, Robert Novak and Tucker Carlson.
In the CROSSFIRE:
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The motion is not agreed to.
ANNOUNCER: The gay marriage amendment doesn't even get to the altar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ultimately, we will win this fight. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman.
ANNOUNCER: John Kerry's choice for vice president heads off on his first solo campaign trip since the big announcement.
SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What we need in the White House is somebody who has the strength, courage and leadership to take responsibility and be accountable not only for what's good, but for what's bad.
ANNOUNCER: Is anybody feeling optimistic about the election?
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It doesn't matter whether their message is delivered with a frown or a smile. It's the same old pessimism.
ANNOUNCER: Cheer up. We're taking stock of the presidential race today on CROSSFIRE.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Tucker Carlson.
(APPLAUSE)
TUCKER CARLSON, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE, where we bring you not the same old pessimism.
Well, instead of showing up for today's vote on the gay amendment marriage, John Kerry chose to hide in Boston. John Edwards, meanwhile, conveniently left town.
(LAUGHTER) JAMES CARVILLE, CO-HOST: Hiding in Boston. Absolutely. What a place to hide.
Instead of showing up to protect the Constitution, save the environment or get us out of the mess in Iraq, President Bush is practicing what John Edwards calls the politics of division. So it's our duty to bring America together -- together for the best political briefing in television, our CROSSFIRE "Political Alert."
The U.S. Senate today had the good sense to take the Republican Party's latest effort to divide America and send back where it belongs, to the legislative dump. The Republicans needed 60 votes to bring up that constitutional amendment banning gay marriage and 67 to pass it. They only got 48, a miserable failure, if there ever was one.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Even Senator John McCain called the amendment -- quote -- "antithetical to every core philosophy of the Republicans." A slight correction, Senator. It's antithetical to every core philosophy of all Americans. Jobs are going overseas. The deficit is up. Our standing in the world is hurting. Terrorists strike America again and again. And what are Americans -- Republicans talking about? Gay marriage.
CARLSON: You know, I think you raise a pretty interesting, a pretty good point. John Kerry's opposition to gay marriage bothers me. He hasn't explained why he doesn't think that gay people have the right to get married. I don't want to accuse him of bigotry. And I'm not going to, James.
But I think you're probably as bothered as I am.
CARVILLE: No, I'm not.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: By his core opposition to allowing gay people to get married.
CARVILLE: You know this. What Rick Santorum and Tom DeLay and all your heroes in the Republican Party are doing is, they want to pass a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: John Kerry says, let the states decide.
CARLSON: No, but John Kerry says he's against it. He says he's against gay marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Let the states decide.
CARLSON: He thinks it's wrong. He thinks it's wrong, James.
CARVILLE: Why, with all the problems we have and with our troops bogged down, with us being hated around the world, with our deficit exploding...
CARLSON: It's a good question. It's a good question.
CARVILLE: ... why in the hell are they sitting in the Congress of the United States talking about this?
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They're trying to appease -- the DeLay-Santorum- Carlson wing of the party is trying to appease the right-wing.
CARLSON: You know, maybe you can talk to your friend John Kerry and open his mind a little bit, bring him into this century.
CARVILLE: No, he's against this stupid amendment.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, speaking of John Kerry, Mr. Kerry has never claimed to be a new Democrat. And that's pretty good, because he's not.
The federal bureaucracy would in fact likely grow even more Byzantine under a Kerry administration. How do we know this? Well, take a look at his campaign. According to today "Washington Post," the Kerry campaign now includes 37 separate domestic policy councils, 27 separate foreign policy groups, each with scores of members. The Justice Policy Task Force alone has 195 members. The environmental group is roughly the same size, as is the Agricultural and Rural Development Council. That sounds like a lot of fun.
Kerry counts more than 200 economists as his advisers. The irony, of course, is that, even with all these deep thinkers working for him, Kerry is still running the most conventional, interest-group- approved Democratic campaign since his former boss, Michael Dukakis, with not a single fresh or inspired idea. Even Democrats know that.
Kerry should learn the lesson of the Albanian Parliament. Just because a lot of people meet in one room doesn't mean they have anything interesting to say.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: First of all, anybody can call themselves a Kerry policy adviser, which apparently
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: No, this is by his campaign's description. CARVILLE: But you know what? By the ditch that Bush has taken this country, and it is going to take a lot of people to get together and get it out of. And I will guarantee you that.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: No, but, James, wouldn't, honestly -- wouldn't you think, after 20 years in the U.S. Senate, he would know what he thinks?
CARVILLE: He knows exactly what he's doing.
Back when Congress was debating the so-called Medicare reform, lots of retirees worried it would just give businesses an excuse to cut benefits they already had. Huh. They were right to worry. The government now estimates that one-third of all retirees with employee- sponsored drug coverage will lose it in 2006. That's nearly four million people who have good insurance now and won't in two years.
This is the classic Republican tactic. The drug companies get together and conspire with the Republicans, who control Congress, to write a bill which ends up letting them split the profits. They take your money and give it to the companies, while leaving senior citizens and people who actually need the medicine with nothing.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: So let me just see -- let me just see if I have this right.
CARVILLE: Yes.
CARLSON: Millions of Americans will now become more dependent on the federal government to live. This sounds like a classic Democratic scheme to me.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: And that's why I opposed it from the beginning.
CARVILLE: This is your money.
CARVILLE: This is a huge expansion of the federal government.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Republicans, drug companies.
CARLSON: Right. I know you're turning it to the drug companies.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: You know what, actually? You know what, James? The drug companies do a pretty good job of curing people's diseases.
(APPLAUSE) (CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Your money is going to the Republicans, who give it here. And you get the shaft right out there, Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You lose your insurance. You don't get the coverage. They get the money.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: That is such a shameless lie. Actually, what happens is, the federal government gets more power.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You get the shaft. They get everything. What a deal.
CARLSON: But I'm sure, under socialized medicine with John Kerry, it will be a lot better.
(BELL RINGING)
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, first, they snubbed her in the veep pick, choosing instead yet another rich white guy, John Edwards. Now the Kerry campaign has apparently told New York Senator and folk hero Hillary Clinton that she cannot speak at the Democratic Convention in Boston later this month.
Al Sharpton is speaking. So are Ted Kennedy and Howard Dean, but not Hillary Clinton. Why not? Well, the campaign claims Mrs. Clinton didn't want to give a speech. She's just not very ambitious. Raise your hand if you believe that.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Actually, Hillary won't be speaking because Democratic officials consider her too polarizing, which is another way of saying too embarrassing, more embarrassing even than Ted Kennedy, if that's possible.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: And so the party of women's empowerment is blowing off the most empowered woman of them all, Hillary Clinton. Here's my question. Shouldn't somebody be protesting this decision? Shouldn't the handful of principled feminists left, the ones who did not shill for Bill Clinton, shouldn't they hold a rally or a protest or a teach- in or a sit-in or something, burn a bra?
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: Of course they should. And we look forward to their civil disobedience.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: What is this? I thought this is the party of women's empowerment.
CARVILLE: You won't have to look at it, because let me tell you, every campaign does dumb things. Some campaigns every now and then do a really dumb thing. This is a really dumb thing. And John Kerry will get this fixed in 48 hours.
CARLSON: I don't know what he has against her.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: It was just a dumb thing they did.
CARLSON: He couldn't find a single qualified woman to run on his ticket with him? I'm sorry. I'm morally offended.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: I know you're morally offended.
(LAUGHTER)
CARVILLE: You know, all you got to do, Tucker, is worry about gay marriage, because that's the core of what your party is really about. You know what? We are going to expand the thing.
(APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Worry about
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: ... and gays getting married.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I hope that John Kerry will drop his antiquated, bigoted opposition to gay marriage.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: They will fix this. They will fix this. He's against the gay marriage amendment. I don't know how to tell you that.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: I'm afraid we need to move on to a commercial break. CARVILLE: We prayed at the senior citizen's
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Well, we will continue our 'round-the-clock vigil on behalf of the snubbed Hillary Clinton when we return.
But, meanwhile, John Edwards heads out on his own for the first time to sell John Kerry. It's a tall order. Can you even imagine? Is he up to it? That's our question. We'll debate the Bush-Kerry battle just ahead.
And later, Jerry Springer will have a surprising role at the upcoming Democratic National Convention in Boston. We'll tell you what it is.
We'll be right back.
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: The Republican Party shot itself in the foot today. As a matter of fact, it blew its whole leg off. George W. Bush and his buddies on the radical right tried to embarrass John Kerry and the Democrats by forcing a vote to write the anti-gay bigotry into the U.S. Constitution and couldn't even muster a simple majority. They won't be able to muster a majority in November either, not that they did the last time.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: In the CROSSFIRE from Capitol Hill is Democratic Gregory Meeks in New York. And here with us at the George Washington University is the beautiful, gorgeous, lovely Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen.
(CROSSTALK)
REP. ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN (R), FLORIDA: That's the only opinion with which I agree with.
CARLSON: Amen.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: You are, Congresswoman.
CARLSON: Now, Congressman Meeks, thanks for joining us. There's been a feeling, I think a bipartisan feeling, really for the last couple of years, that John Kerry, for all his experience and his undeniably high intelligence, doesn't really know what he believes.
"The Washington Post" this morning I think added to this feeling by listing all the different campaign advisory councils the Kerry campaign has set up. We're going to put a graphic up on the screen. You can read them.
There are 37 separate domestic policy councils, 27 foreign policy groups, 195 members of the Justice Policy Task Force, 200 members of the environmental group, 200 members of the agricultural group, and 200 economic advisers.
What's the message here? If you like the DMV, you'll love the Kerry administration? What do you read into this?
(LAUGHTER)
REP. GREGORY MEEKS (D), NEW YORK: No.
Kerry's is a very focused individual. He's an individual who understands and takes and accepts opinions from those to formulate his opinion. It's just basically what he talks about when you talk about foreign policy, how we should include other individuals, so that we can be sure of what we're doing and come up with a policy that works.
And John Kerry is man that is able to absorb and to take in and then to focus and direct policy. That's what he's done his whole career and that is what he'll do as president of the United States.
CARLSON: That's a pretty smooth answer, Congressman. I congratulate you for defending the hard-to-defend.
But I wonder if you could comment on one of the key decisions these groups are making, this reported again today in "The Washington Post" -- quote -- "One task force is still arguing about whether it should be titled -- quote -- 'The Council on Babies Children and Youth or Just Children and Youth.'"
I mean, that's where -- when you send your 100 bucks to the Kerry campaign, that's where it goes, to councils that make those kind of key decisions, what they should be named?
MEEKS: No, what you're doing is, you're pulling straws out of the hat.
When you're talking about getting involved in everyday nuts-and- bolts decisions, we have high-level people who are of ultimate, who have great vision. They sit down. Senator Kerry listens. He then digests it. And then he makes the decisions. He's a man that is of action and takes the nation in a proper way. But he knows how to include people. He's not one that's arrogant and tries to exclude people.
CARVILLE: Congresswoman, let's get away from really important issues like a subcommittee of the subcommittee in the Kerry campaign and go to a relevant thing, like they fact that we're stuck in Iraq and we haven't found any weapons of mass destruction and our intelligence is terrible.
(LAUGHTER) (APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: A year ago today -- a year ago today, this is what President Bush had to say about the intelligence that he had received. This was four months after we had been looking for the weapons of mass destruction and it was clear that we weren't going to find them. Let me show you what the president had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BUSH: Let me first say that, you know, I think the intelligence I get is darned good intelligence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: OK. Now, here's a man that he says that he had darned good intelligence. Today, Tony Blair says, I take full responsibility.
How is anybody going to vote for that? Do you think really think that?
ROS-LEHTINEN: That is the same intelligence that France had, that Germany had, that Russia had, the same intelligence that everyone in the U.N. had, when, to a country, they voted unanimously, resolution after resolution, a dozen resolutions saying that Saddam Hussein is not complying.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Do you think he had darned -- do you agree with him that he had darned good -- what kind of judgment does that say, that that man sits there and says -- why did Tony Blair say, I take responsibility?
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: We had the -- we had the next -- best intelligence that anybody had. No one disagreed with us.
CARVILLE: So you're satisfied? You're satisfied with the CIA's intelligence?
ROS-LEHTINEN: And we are willing to say, in a bipartisan way, like Senator Roberts' Intelligence Committee said, that they were false and that we all shared them, the international community, and that our intelligence gathering community is going to improve. And that's what President Bush is doing.
CARVILLE: So you -- you agree with President Bush he had darned good intelligence?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Every one in the United Nations agreed that the intelligence was good.
CARVILLE: OK, you all agree, Republicans. Intelligence is good.
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: And we relied on that.
It is very difficult to infiltrate these terrorist organizations who blow themselves up.
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: If you'd like to volunteer, you could be the human intelligence and infiltrate these groups.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We don't need me.
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: These are groups that want to blow themselves up for a cause. And it's very difficult for us to have good intelligence.
CARVILLE: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Meeks, sometimes I feel -- and this one of those times -- like the only feminist left in America.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: It seems to me, if you're John Kerry and you're looking for people to speak at your convention, it's obvious that you want not simply a strong woman, but indeed the strongest woman, the most famous woman, the most admired woman in your party. And that of course is Hillary Clinton, a member of your congressional delegation. And, instead, John Kerry's has said to Senator Clinton, no dice. You can't speak. Be quiet. Go home and bake cookies. Aren't you offended by this? I know I am.
MEEKS: Well, no, John Kerry did not say that. Senator Clinton will participate in the convention. She will be there. And, most importantly, her husband will also, the former president of the United States, speak.
And we will have women that are represented across the board. The key with the Democratic Party is, we have got so much talent and so many people that represents what America is about that it's hard to fit everybody in just the four days that we have at convention. And so Hillary will be a part of it, as she is very much a part of this campaign and she will be out on the campaign trail, most importantly, letting folks know that John Kerry is the right man with the plan for America. CARLSON: Yes. So, you've got time for Howard Dean and Jimmy Carter, but not for Hillary.
Let me ask you this question, then. Does it bother you, considering, as you said, the Democratic Party represents so many people, that the Kerry campaign couldn't find a single, not one, woman or member of an ethnic minority group qualified enough to be vice president and instead they got this rich white guy? That doesn't bother you at all?
MEEKS: Well, look -- but -- no. Let's -- Senator Kerry picked the right person, John Edwards, to be vice president. There's no question about that.
(CROSSTALK)
MEEKS: It seems to me ironic that the other side is going to talk about -- a party that is basically monolithic talking about the diversity we have in the Democratic Party. So, clearly, I think that Senator
(CROSSTALK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Congresswoman, myself and the Republicans on the Intelligence Committee say that our intelligence stunk. You and President Bush said it's great.
Let me show you another Republican I'm agreeing with and see if you can team up, if we can make this. I'm going to show you what Senator John McCain said about this gay rights thing, the constitutional amendment we're talking about. "It is antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of the Republicans. It usurps from the states the fundamental authority they've always possessed and imposes a federal remedy for a problem that most states do not believe confronts them."
Now, would you agree with Senator John McCain and James Carville or do you side with President Bush that these gay people are a threat to our way of life?
ROS-LEHTINEN: As in many things, I agree with Senator John McCain. I voted for the Defense of Marriage Act, which President Clinton, your pal, signed into law.
CARVILLE: Are you for this constitutional amendment?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Defining -- defining marriage as between a man and woman.
However, I agree with Senator McCain that we do not need a divisive constitutional amendment as our nation is still evolving on a controversial issue and civil unions becomes something that we should discuss at the states level. So I agree with Senator McCain.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: Thank you.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We have you and McCain and Carville against Bush and DeLay and....
ROS-LEHTINEN: There we go. There we go.
CARLSON: We're down to less than a minute.
But,very quickly, aren't you appalled by John Kerry's opposition to gay marriage? Why is he against letting gay people get married? Can you explain it to me?
MEEKS: Well, John Kerry talks about what his personally beliefs are, based upon his religious beliefs, as all.
What's great about America is that you should be able to express your opinion about what you feel and your religious belief, but not infringe upon others. And so it is perfectly fit for John Kerry to talk about what he believes personally, but not try to impose that belief on others. Let the states -- I agree. Let the states decide, etcetera. So John Kerry is just fitting within why -- why it's good to be an American and why I think he would be a great American president.
CARLSON: All right.
(APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: Why have we had this guy on the bench? Congressman, you get out there. You're a great spokesman. You're doing a great job. Thank you, sir.
CARLSON: All right, next in "Rapid Fire," we'll ask why John Edwards isn't helping John Kerry more in North Carolina, indeed, not really helping him at all.
And what is the acting director of the CIA saying about criticism of his agency's work? Wolf Blitzer has details of his exclusive next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Coming up at the top of the hour, the nation's top spy, the acting CIA director, John McLaughlin, defends his agency against Senate charges it botched the WMD investigation. I spoke with him at length just a short time ago. Join us for a CNN television exclusive.
Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge visits Boston to preview plans and to review how best to protect the Democratic National Convention from terrorists. We'll talk with him live.
And a major setback today for the fight to outlaw same-sex marriage.
Those stories, much more, only minutes away on "WOLF BLITZER REPORTS."
Now back to CROSSFIRE.
CARVILLE: It's time for "Rapid Fire," where we ask questions even faster than John Edwards can bring a smile to voters' faces.
With the rest of us, Democratic Congressman Gregory Meeks, his first appearance on CROSSFIRE, and a damn impressive one, and regular guest Congresswoman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen of Florida, always an impressive guest.
Thank you so much for being here.
(CROSSTALK)
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Meeks, John Kerry picks the sitting senator from North Carolina to run with him and he is still losing in the latest poll by 15 points in North Carolina. I would have thought John Edwards would have brought more votes with him.
MEEKS: Well, depending upon which poll you look at will tell you differently. And I say the poll that counts will be the poll that takes place on November 2.
Clearly, if you look at crowd that came out in Raleigh, North Carolina, recently this past weekend, unprecedented, and you look at the energy that is happening in North Carolina -- here is a state that once you would think that was just clearly going to be a Bush state. But I know one thing. You can sleep on that 15 points if you want. If you all want to take it for granted, take it for granted, but see us November 2.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
CARVILLE: We are -- we haven't had the Democratic Convention yet. President Bush, the incumbent, is down probably average around three or four points right now. How concerned are you that your candidate is going to go into his opponent's convention down in the polls?
ROS-LEHTINEN: Well, that's not a problem for us, because we have got to look like an underdog. We have got to fire up our base. It is all going to be turnout. Florida, my home state, is going to be a pivotal state. We hope that we are not counting votes by January. We hope that we will be done on election night.
And, in all these swing states, you're going to see that they know that the president is a man who is handling the economy well, understands the global war against terrorism and understands the needs for the future generations. So he's going to be the man to beat. And we don't mind being the underdog. We know how to fight. (APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Now, Mr. Meeks, apart from Hillary Clinton, who has been excluded, just about everybody else in the Democratic universe is speaking at convention, Al Sharpton, Al Gore, Howard Dean, but not Michael Dukakis. He's never invited to address the convention.
(LAUGHTER)
CARLSON: And I think it's outrageous. And I wonder if you will be brave enough to stand up on his behalf and say to the leaders of your party, let Michael speak.
MEEKS: Well, when you think -- when you join the Democratic Party, then we'll take your opinion.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
MEEKS: However, let me tell you something. We're going to put up the best people that we have. And Michael Dukakis is a part of our party. We have a big tent. And we welcome everyone.
(BELL RINGING)
MEEKS: I wish we could extend the convention so that we can have all the great Democrats talk. By sure, I think that we outnumber the numbers of Republicans and we will put on a show.
CARLSON: OK.
(CROSSTALK)
CARVILLE: We need to get Congressman Gregory Meeks to speak at the convention.
CARLSON: Gregory Meeks from New York state, thank you so much.
Congressman Ileana Ros-Lehtinen from Florida, thank you both very much.
(CROSSTALK)
ROS-LEHTINEN: Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: All right.
Well, first off, free Michael Dukakis.
Second, are the Democrats headed for a floor fight in Boston? Find out what Jerry Springer has planned for the Democratic Party's convention next. What a freak show.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Well, once upon a time, long before he started refereeing television battles between sexy secret hookers, lying, cheating lovers, and battlin' bed mates, Jerry Springer was a TV newsman of sorts. His peers considered him a pretty good one. Springer is the recipient of 10 Emmy awards for his work in local news.
So who could better be suited to cover the Democratic Convention as a special correspondent for Cleveland's 19 Action News? Jerry Springer, who is also a convention delegate. He promises his reports will not be boring. Maybe he'll start a floor fight. News at 11:00.
CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE. Thank you for joining us.
CARLSON: And from the right, I'm Tucker Carlson. Join us again tomorrow for yet more CROSSFIRE.
Free Hillary Clinton.
See you tomorrow.
(APPLAUSE)
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