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CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Mudslides in California; Does Pentagon Have New Plan to Take Out Insurgents in Iraq?

Aired January 10, 2005 - 17:00 ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, HOST: It's going from bad to worse. Happening now. Look at this, mudslides, horrible mudslides in California. We have new pictures coming in. The weather in California, simply horrendous. We'll show you what's going on.
Also happening now. Targeting insurgents in Iraq. 20 days before the scheduled elections, is there a new Pentagon plan to take them out? Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): You've seen the stunning images. Now, the stunning story. Why they were caught in the streets as the sea swept through their city.

Relentless weather, raging rivers, mudslides and mountains of snow. As the death toll rises, a dramatic rescue effort.

Storm at CBS. Dan Rather called the story radioactive. Now, the fallout. And the oustings. I'll speak with former CBS correspondent Bernard Goldberg.

He brokered the first peace deal. Is it time for the U.S. to force another deal? Tough talk from a former president. I'll speak with Jimmy Carter.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Monday, January 10, 2005.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: We're going to have much more on the mudslides, the horrible weather in California. Let's show you those pictures again. This is from our affiliate KCAL. It's a KCAL exclusive. This is what's been going on in California over the past couple of hours. Part of a horrible weather pattern that has included rain and snow. We'll have much more on this coming up shortly.

But let's get to another horrible weather pattern. More than two weeks after the Indian Ocean tsunamis, it's still very hard if not impossible for most of us to grasp the full extent of the horror what happened there. Now, there's videotape from Indonesia that tells the story unlike anything else we've seen up to this point. Jonathan Miller reports from Banda Aceh in Indonesia where a massive earthquake was only the beginning. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN MILLER, ITV CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When the massive earthquake rocked Banda Aceh just after 8:00 a.m. on the 26th of December, a man called Hashim (ph) surveyed the destruction and went out with his handycam. He'd been on his way to film a wedding. Many buildings had collapsed. Uniformed sales assistants from a crumbled shopping center were trying to revive an unconscious colleague. Rescuers began their search for bodies. And thousands of dazed local residents milled around in the streets fearing aftershocks.

As Hashim wandered around shooting pictures of smashed cabinets and shops, shop owners were busily rearranging their stock. Nearly half an hour had gone by since the quake. No one had any idea what was heading their way.

Suddenly, there was panic. Hashim climbed a wall near the mosque just as the first ton of inky black water slid down the street. People were trying to outrun the wave. And at first, it seemed they might have a chance. Then came the surge. Can you imagine the terror, seeing this monster advancing and having nowhere to run to? I can't believe I've met people who survived being swept up in this. But not many did.

You can't see any people in there, but there will have been hundreds. The tsunami had already bulldozed Banda's suburbs by the time it reached here right in the heart of the city. Carried away everything in its path. As the water level stabilized, Hashim turned his camera on other horror-struck spectators. They were clinging to parapets. They lined the roof of the mosque. There's even someone in the top of this palm tree.

Hashim gave his extraordinary tsunami tape to a national TV station. We don't know why he held on to it so long. All around Banda Aceh, they gathered to watch, mesmerized. Hashim himself provided the commentary. That's him in the box bottom right. He said the battery on his handycam was almost flat. He only managed to film a few minutes of the actual tsunami.

We reckon this was pretty much the spot where Hashim, the amateur cameraman was standing when the tsunami hit. The raging torrent filled with all that lethal debris came coursing down these two streets here, reaching a confluence at this crossroads right across from Banda Aceh's grand mosque. The mosque is five kilometers from the sea, yet even here the wave reached that second story over there more than ten feet high.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: That was Jonathan Miller of ITV reporting. What an amazing, amazing story. So far the U.S. government has committed $315 million for tsunami relief. President Bush says he'll wait to see whether more help is necessary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're now entering a second phase of providing for rehabilitation to these affected societies as well as a reconstruction effort. And as the secretary said yesterday, the government of the United States is committed to helping the people who suffer. We're committed today and we will be committed tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The scope is dramatically different, but California is also suffering at the hands of nature. Take a look at this videotape we just received from KCAL, our affiliate out in California. A mudslide in the La Conchita area along Highway 101. Mudslides to the north and to the south. Sheriff's buses brought about 150 people out of the area to county fairgrounds. A sheriff also says there was concern the Ventura River could crest and come over Highway 101. But these pictures clearly underscore what's going on in California. Indeed in that state from north to south, Californians are grappling with record rainfall and snowfall as a storm after storm pummels the state. CNN's Peter Viles is out near northwest of Los Angeles, Santa Clarita right now. He's got more -- Peter.

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it is absolutely remarkable what this storm has done to the Los Angeles region in five days. Five straight days of rain with mudslides like the one you just showed have taken a region that is famous for being so dry, where forest fire is the main risk, taken that region and really transformed it. Right now this is a treacherous patchwork, this Los Angeles region, of flash floods and mudslides.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): A rescue mission in southern California. This man was swept along for two miles, lost his car, even lost his pants, but escaped with his life after rescue workers actually followed him through those flood waters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had people that were actually running the river bank and keeping an eye on him. Captain Magolian (ph) on Engine 81 and myself on truck 811 went down one of the main streets and set up at the bridge. And we had visual with him the whole time and set up the rope systems to get him out of the water.

VILES: The heavy rains caused rock and mudslides throughout the region. At this mobile home park north of Los Angeles, a river formed almost overnight and threatened dozens of homes. Workers used heavy equipment to try to dig a trench to channel the floodwaters and save the homes. At least five homes were lost, though, including this man's.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two minutes ago, less than two minutes ago it fell. But yesterday I had two sheds and this is two days ago, this is like two minutes ago.

VILES: Slick roads and mudslides caused hundreds of traffic accidents stranding cars as far south as Temecula (ph) near San Diego and proving deadly in Malibu. This vehicle hit a patch of mud and skidded off the Pacific Coast highway right into the Pacific Ocean. Four passengers were rescued. One was killed.

A mudslide in the Hollywood Hills destroyed this home. Amazingly there were no serious injuries. Two children were rescued from the mud that destroyed the home. A 2-year-old girl, however, was lost, swept out of her mother's arms and killed just as rescue workers were trying to save the mother and child at this flooded intersection.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): Wolf, as you pointed out, this is the same storm system that is bringing record setting snowfall to the mountains just about 20 miles north of here. In some high elevations of those mountains they've received the most snow, about 20 feet, that they've had in 90 years. But down here closer to sea level, of course, the story is rain. To date this year in Los Angeles, Wolf, 21 inches of rain. In a typical entire year Los Angeles gets about 15 inches. We've had more than a year's worth of rain in ten days -- Wolf.

BLITZER: That's pretty amazing. Peter Viles reporting for us.

California isn't the only state dealing with weather woes. Search crews in Pennsylvania are hoping that water levels in the swollen Ohio River will drop enough to allow them to search for a sunken tugboat. Three crew members were killed when the vessel sank early yesterday after it was swept over a dam spillway. Another crew member is still missing. The tugboat was pushing six barges of coal which also sank. The incident happened in Industry, about 25 miles northwest of Pittsburgh.

The Ohio River is over its banks in a number of areas including Cincinnati. Officials there expect the river to crest today at five feet above flood stage. The flooding is a double whammy for the state. Thousands of people are still without power from last week's ice storm.

In other news, it was a stunning report with huge implications for the presidential campaign, but perhaps even more shocking than the CBS story questioning President Bush's National Guard service, there had been many of those stories before, was the network's turnaround when it admitted it could no longer vouch for its facts. Now the other shoe has dropped and several top CBS news executives are out of a job. CNN's Chris Huntington joins us now live from New York with more -- Chris.

CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this was a report that was three months in the making. A lengthy independent review of just exactly what happened at CBS News with that September 8 broadcast. The lengthy review offers an unflattering assessment of the breakdown of journalistic standards at CBS News.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): In early September, veteran CBS News producer Mary Mapes thought she had the story of the presidential election. That George W. Bush had shirked his duties in the Texas Air National Guard and that four letters reportedly written by Bush's commanding officer at the time proved it.

DAN RATHER, CBS NEWS ANCHOR: Tonight we have new documents and new information on the president's military service.

HUNTINGTON: In fact, all that Mapes had were four ragged photo copies that neither she nor her colleagues at "60 Minutes Wednesday" nor several document specialists could authenticate at the time. Now a 224-page report prepared by former U.S. attorney general Richard Thornburgh and Louis Boccardi, the former CEO of the Associated Press finds, quote, "considerable and fundamental deficiencies relating to the reporting and production of the September 8 segment." That, quote, "myopic zeal to break the story ahead of other news organizations resulted in a rush to air that overwhelmed the proper application of CBS News standards."

ALEX JONES, SHORENSTEIN CENTER: I don't think there's any more destructive element in television news now than the competition to be first. This is a story about newspeople who fell in love with a story, and falling in love is a kind of madness. And that afflicts people in the news business just like it afflicts all of us sometimes.

HUNTINGTON: Thornburgh and Boccardi present a revealing look at the chaotic pressure cooker at "60 Minutes Wednesday" trying to push through a controversial story in just a few days including Mapes and an associate producer scrambling over Labor Day weekend to find document experts just days before the report would go to air. Mapes is described in the report as dismissing objections raised by those experts and then convincing CBS News executives that the documents had been validate. Dan Rather is described as out of the loop, covering Hurricane Frances in Florida. But Rather did tell CBS News president Andrew Heyward that, quote, "this story could be radioactive" and that Heyward should have it checked out thoroughly. Heyward then e-mailed Betsy West the executive overseeing "60 Minutes," "we're going to have to defend every syllable on this one." Betsy West as well as two other executives at "60 Minutes Wednesday" have lost their jobs all because a veteran producer thought she had a scoop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The vetting process didn't work, that people trusted the word of one person without checking the documents or the experts that produced them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HUNTINGTON: Now, Moonves also said that CBS will immediately adopt one of the chief recommendations of the Thornburgh/Boccardi report and that is a new executive position to oversee reporting standards. By the way, Wolf, the Thornburgh/Boccardi report itself could not authenticate the documents. So we still don't know if those documents were real or forged.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Chris Huntington with a solid report from New York. Thanks very much. We'll have reaction to the controversial shake-up at CBS News and the allegations that the oustings are politically motivated. I'll speak with former CBS correspondent and author Bernard Goldberg. That's coming up next.

Increased violence in Iraq and now talk of drastic measures. Could U.S.-trained forces soon operate as secret death squads?

Fair and free. Palestinians elect a new leader and renew hope for peace in the Middle East. The former president of the United States, Jimmy Carter, is in the region. My interview with him, that's coming up as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Our coverage of the CBS News story continues now. I'm joined from our Miami bureau by Bernard Goldberg, a former CBS correspondent and the author of the best selling book "Bias, A CBS Insider Exposes How The Media Distort the News." Bernie, thanks very much for joining us. A lot of our viewers are interested. First of all, was this a thorough report? Are you satisfied with the bottom line conclusions of this report?

BERNARD GOLDBERG, FMR. CBS CORRESPONDENT: Well, to state the obvious, they don't care whether I'm satisfied or not. But look, I think after three months they put a lot of work into it and deserve some credit, but it's disingenuous, I think, Wolf, to simply conclude that they made a mistake without going into some detail about how they made the mistake beyond this zeal to be first. I don't think this story would have ever seen the light of day if their source, instead of being a Bush -- someone who disliked President Bush, someone with a vendetta against President Bush, was, let's say, a conservative Republican who had a vendetta against John Kerry. If this report were about not George Bush being a slacker during the Vietnam War but about John Kerry being a slacker during the Vietnam War, they would have been much more careful. Yes, they made a mistake. Dan Rather had no idea that these documents were phony, but they made a mistake, in my view, anyway, because, a, they wanted the story to be true, and because it fit their own preconceived notions about George Bush.

BLITZER: Basically, though, what I can tell from reading the document is they had such high regard for this Mary Mapes, the senior producer who was involved in putting it together, she had been a star at "60 Minutes" for so many years.

GOLDBERG: Right.

BLITZER: They simply assumed she knew what she was doing.

GOLDBERG: Yes, I have some inside information on this because I'm still a reporter and I still talk to people on the inside. Mary Mapes is the real villain in all of this. I almost feel sorry for my old friend Dan Rather. Mary Mapes really misled a whole bunch of people, but, you know, the report concluded that there was no evidence of bias. And you know, in the reporting. And I agree, there was no evidence of bias. I'm not sure what evidence they thought they'd find. Did they think there was going to be a memo that said, let's stick to it George W. Bush? Of course there was no evidence. But I'm saying this...

BLITZER: Let me read, Bernie, I'll interrupt for a second, from the commission, the independent review panel's findings on this issue. "The panel does not find a bias to accuse those who investigated, produced, vetted or aired the segment of having a political bias. The panel does note, however, that on such a politically charged story coming in the midst of a presidential campaign in which military service records had become an issue, there was a need for meticulous care to avoid any suggestion of an agenda at work."

GOLDBERG: And I'm going a step further. I'm saying there was an agenda at work. I'm not saying that Dan Rather went into this saying, I'm going to get George Bush. It's never -- that is not the nature of bias in the news. It never, ever happens that way. But I am saying that he wanted this story to be true, and Mary Mapes sure wanted that story to be true. And did he depend too much on her? Yes, that's obvious. But if he didn't want this story to be true, if it didn't fit the culture of CBS' preconceived notions about liberals and conservatives and Democrats and Republicans, it would have never seen the light of day and we would never be talking about it.

BLITZER: Their defenders say they wanted it to be true, they fell in love with the story, not because of a bias or a political agenda, but because they thought it was a great story, and as journalists, you and I know, we love great stories.

GOLDBERG: Yes, and I think when you're working with investigative producers -- and it's the scariest thing in the world -- I've worked with them -- when they fall in love with the story, head for the hills. Because you may have big, big problems, as we see here. But what I'm saying is, they didn't simply fall in love with a great story. They would have never -- I know these people, I know these people. And even more than knowing these people, I know the culture at CBS News. They would have never fallen in love with a story that made the other side look as bad as they made George Bush. They just wouldn't have.

BLITZER: All right, let's talk about Dan Rather for a moment. Leslie Moonves and his statement released in conjunction with the report says this: "Dan Rather has already apologized for the segment and taken personal responsibility for his part in the broadcast. He voluntarily moved to set a date to step down from 'The CBS Evening News' anchor chair in March of 2005, which will give him more time to concentrate on his reporting for CBS News. After examining the report and thinking about its implications, we believe any further action would not be appropriate."

Is that appropriate for Leslie Moonves to have reached that conclusion?

GOLDBERG: Yeah, he's the boss. Whatever he decides, in a sense, is appropriate. Dan Rather's legacy is going to be two-fold, I think. One is that he's a reporter with tremendous courage, physical courage, especially. He's covered every major story since the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and he was the first reporter on that story. And he deserves tremendous credit for all of that. But the other part of the legacy that I'm sure the report doesn't go into, because it's not the purview of the report, is that Dan Rather is unwilling and maybe even incapable of taking serious criticism seriously. His first reaction is to circle the wagons, and that isn't healthy for anybody, certainly not for a journalist. The first thing he did in this story is to say this was the work -- to people who were criticizing him -- this is the work of partisan political forces. Well, you know what? You know who the partisan political forces were? His source, his producer and maybe Dan Rather himself.

BLITZER: Dan Rather is also listed as managing editor of "The CBS Evening News," not just a reader, a news reader, if you will.

GOLDBERG: Right.

BLITZER: He is quoted in the report as having said to CBS News President Andrew Heyward, this is radioactive, make sure this is all right. I'm busy, I've got a million things going on, including the hurricanes in Florida. Andrew Heyward, he's not being fired, he's allowed to continue. Do you accept that?

GOLDBERG: Again, it doesn't matter if I accept it. But I read that quote of Dan Rather's when he made it in "The New York Times," and I thought Dan Rather was brilliant by doing that, because now he's linked himself to Andrew Heyward.

I will say this, I like Andrew Heyward a lot. There was a time when he was, if anybody cares, my best friend. But if you think Ronald Reagan is the teflon president, you have never met Andrew Heyward. There is no -- I would have bet the ranch that he wasn't going to go down on this thing.

Now, whether or not three months from now, six months from now Andrew Heyward announces that he wants to pursue other challenges and all that, that may be, but you know, there were a number of people in the meetings on this story, and Andrew Heyward was one of them. So Andrew Heyward -- I don't think that the captain of the ship, because he's the president of CBS News, ipso facto, he ought to be punished for this. But he was involved at every level of this story. Maybe not every single, you know, little thing, but he was involved in all the meetings that Dan Rather went to, that Heyward went to, that Betsy West went to and that Mary Mapes went to and that Josh Howard and Mary Murphy, the two producers, went to.

And you know, I just think it is going to be awfully difficult for Dan Rather and Andrew Heyward to go into work when all these other people have lost their jobs. I mean, I know some of these people. And they're very good and they're very decent. They've lost their jobs, but Rather, the reporter on the story, hasn't lost his job. He's still making a seven-figure salary. And Andrew Heyward hasn't lost his. I'm not saying he should have. But if I'm Andrew Heyward I'm feeling mighty funny about this, you know, this survivor -- I'd have survivor guilt, let's put it that way.

BLITZER: Bernard Goldberg, we'll leave it right there. Continue this conversation on another occasion. Thanks very much for joining us.

GOLDBERG: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Is there a new plan targeting insurgents in Iraq? A plan that dates back to a secret strategy used by the Reagan administration?

Plus, a new chapter begins in the Middle East as Palestinians elect a replacement to Yasser Arafat. Former President Jimmy Carter was there. He'll join me, that's coming up.

And we'll have more on the controversial changes at CBS News. Our Mary Snow is monitoring the airwaves. She has reaction to what's going on. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Insurgents in Iraq today carried out deadly attacks against American troops and Iraqi officials. Baghdad's deputy police chief and his son were gunned down in their car as they drove to work. It was only the latest in a series of assassinations of top Iraqi officials. The interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi acknowledges the upsurge in attacks, but says the January 30th national elections will go ahead as scheduled.

In another attack, two American soldiers were killed when their Bradley fighting vehicle was destroyed by a roadside bomb. Four American soldiers were wounded.

As U.S. military planners look for ways to combat the insurgency, could local hit teams be unleashed against its leaders? Let's bring in CNN's Brian Todd. He's got more on that -- Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, that's a question that we put to several former U.S. military intelligence and special forces officers. The answer falls into those gray areas of combat and counterinsurgency.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): With coalition casualties mounting and elections nearing, military intelligence experts agree Iraqi insurgents are as bold as ever, and their attacks are getting more sophisticated.

Countering this insurgency and adapting with it are challenges now provoking intense debate in intelligence circles. Pentagon officials dispute a report suggesting that a so-called Salvador option has been discussed, the idea that U.S.-trained Iraqis would operate like the Salvadoran death squads of the 1980s, hunting down and killing enemy insurgents.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I don't believe the Department of Defense is trying to build death squads.

TODD: The experts we spoke to, four former military intelligence and special forces, some involved in recent high-level Pentagon discussions, all say the Salvadoran model is a nonstarter. At that time, the U.S.-backed Salvadoran regime was heavily criticized for allowing lawless paramilitary units to kill innocent civilians.

But intelligence analysts all say U.S. special-ops teams are working with sympathetic Iraqis to legitimately target insurgents.

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. JAMES MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: U.S. special forces, both what we call acknowledged and unacknowledged operations are ongoing in Iraq right now. And there's a great effort to train Iraqis to assist in that. And, frankly, why wouldn't we want to do that? Look, a lot of bad people have got to die if we're to get a handle on this terrorism.

TODD: U.S. officials have long believed some insurgents and their leaders are being harbored in Syria. But analysts insist the Pentagon is likely not considering sending U.S.-led teams into Syria to track enemy fighters.

ROBINSON: If those locations where that type of support could be located and then a unilateral action would occur by Iraqis or the United States government, that would seriously escalate our problems with the Syrian government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: Intelligence analysts say the use of special operations forces is expanding in Iraq, but they all acknowledge determining a legitimate target, who goes after it and under whose authority is often a blurry equation that has to be carefully worked out on the ground, Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Todd, reporting for us. Thanks for clarifying that issue for us, Brian.

The Palestinians elect a new leader, but what does that mean for the prospect of Middle East peace? I'll speak about that with the former President Jimmy Carter. He's in Jerusalem monitoring the elections.

U.S./Chinese relations. Can the two countries unite to help rid North Korea of its nuclear weapons? Former U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen is in Beijing right now. He's standing by to join me live.

And four CBS News employees lose their jobs over that controversial CBS News report about President Bush's National Guard service. But does that repair the damage to CBS' reputation? Our Mary Snow is standing by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A day after his election as the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas got an invitation to the White House, something President Bush never offered the late Yasser Arafat. It is only one measure of the expectations attached to his landslide victory yesterday. Meantime, Israel's prime minister, Ariel Sharon, got a boost today when the Knesset endorsed his new coalition government, which supports the plan to pull out of Gaza and some parts of the West Bank.

Former President Jimmy Carter brokered the first Israeli-Egyptian peace deal. He spoke with me earlier today from Jerusalem, where he monitored the Palestinian election. Carter told me he found it completely fair and free, honest and open, in his words. I asked him if he's convinced that Mahmoud Abbas is a legitimate real partner for peace with the Israelis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, there's no doubt in my mind about that, Wolf. But much more importantly, when I met with Prime Minister Sharon after arriving here in Jerusalem a few days ago, it was after Abu Mazen had made that statement.

And Prime Minister Sharon told me in no uncertain terms that if this election went smoothly and if Abu Mazen was elected, he would be prepared to meet with him within the near future.

I followed up by asking, You mean in a few weeks or a few days?

He said, Well, hopefully within a few days.

So if the Israelis can accommodate the statement that Abu Mazen made, then I certainly can myself.

You might have to remember, too, that Abu Mazen's expressed reason for making that statement was in the heat of anger and despair, or maybe sorrow, when seven were killed in the middle of an open field near Gaza after they had been under an attack from the urban areas on some Israeli settlements.

So it was in the heat of exchanges, and my hope is, and my expectation is, that Abu Mazen will be very moderate, and progressive, and peaceful -- peaceful to committed in the future. I met with Abu Mazen before the election, as I did...

BLITZER: I think the question, Mr. President -- let me flip the question, and ask you whether or not you believe the prime minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, is prepared to make the kinds of difficult concessions, territorial concessions, political concessions, that would be required for a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

CARTER: Well, that's still to be decided. And it would have to be done in the intensity of direct negotiations.

Obviously, the United States will play a major role. The fact is now that the only game on the table ultimately is the so-called road map that's been put forward, as you know, by four nations, including the United States. And President Bush has endorsed the road map in its entirety, as have the leaders of the other three nations.

Abu Mazen and Abu Allah, who is the prime minister of the Palestinians, both told me in the last two days they accept the George Bush road map, as you might call it, in its entirety.

The caveats or exceptions have been demanded by the prime minister of Israel, Sharon. So in effect, in a strange way, you have President Bush and Abu Mazen on one side, saying, We support the road map in its entirety.

You have the Israeli prime minister on the other hand saying, We don't accept it, except with 14 major exceptions.

So we don't know what's going to happen. That will have to come out in the negotiations.

BLITZER: The other day I interviewed Brent Scowcroft, who was the national security adviser to the first President Bush, and he surprised me. He said that he now believes the United States government must impose a settlement on the Israelis and the Palestinians since they can't do it by themselves.

Listen precisely to what Brent Scowcroft said on CNN's LATE EDITION.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRENT SCOWCROFT, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I've been opposed to that for most of this conflict. I think it is the only solution now. The two sides by themselves, the animosity is so deep and the mistrust is so wide, that they can never do it by themselves. We've got to say, this is it.

The outlines of a settlement are really quite clear. There are a few rough edges that need to be honed off. But it is not difficult to see what a settlement is now. But we are the ones that have to impose it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Do you agree with him?

CARTER: Yes I do. And as I mentioned earlier I'm not trying to draw lines or anything.

But at this moment, if the internationally approved road map, which has been adopted by President Bush, is the basis for future peace, then President Bush and Abu Mazen are in complete concert. They are in agreement.

The one who is opposing the major principles of the road map, including withdrawal of the settlements from the West Bank or most of them, is the prime minister of Israeli. And I don't know that he would possibly change that position except under influence. I wouldn't say pressure from the United States. And you have to realize, too, that the other three members of the international committee, in effect, that have drafted the road map with the leadership of George W. Bush are all in concert with what I've just said.

So it's going to be -- there's going to be difficult decisions made.

The first step, obviously, already endorsed by Prime Minister Sharon, is the withdraw from Gaza strip. And this will be a very significant, and very difficult but very minor move in the totality of a future of complete political settlement.

BLITZER: Mr. President, kind of you to spend a few moments with us. Thanks very much for joining us here on CNN and CNN International.

CARTER: It's always a pleasure to be with you, Wolf, and all the viewers and listeners around the world of CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Disarming North Korea's nuclear arsenal. Can the U.S. rely on China to help defuse the situation? Former Defense Secretary William Cohen is in Beijing right now. He's standing by to join us live.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: North Korea's nuclear weapons program is an issue that's frustrated the Bush administration almost from day one. Six- party talks aimed at getting rid of those weapons have been stalled for months, with no sign of when they might resume.

But an American congressman is in the northern part of Korea right now and another delegation is due to arrive next week. China is a key player in the six-party talks, which also include South Korea, Japan and Russia.

Joining us now live in Beijing with his take on this and other developments, our world affairs analyst William Cohen.

Mr. Secretary, thanks very much for joining us.

Do you see any hope right now that the administration can get this North Korean nuclear issue intact somehow?

WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: I do, Wolf. I think there's a very dedicated effort on the part of the Chinese government to bring about a successful resolution of the situation with North Korea.

The meetings that I've held thus far, there's every indication that they want to focus on ways in which the energy needs also of the North Koreans can be met, whether there can be a coalition of assistance to be delivered to the North Koreans dealing with their energy requirements. And so, I've so far detected a very strong commitment to resolving this successfully. There is really no other option, because the North Koreans, by going to a nuclear-producing capability, would destabilize the entire region, and the Chinese government recognizes that.

BLITZER: So, the Chinese government -- and you are in China right now speaking to our viewers. Is the Chinese government in Beijing on board? Is it ready to use its influence to stop the North Koreans from developing more nuclear bombs?

COHEN: I think the Chinese government is a key player in the six-party talks. And they want to work with the coalition, the six parties, as such, to develop a program whereby the North Koreans will agree to give up their nuclear ambitions and there will be some reciprocal program, economic to be sure, but also energy included in that, that would be part of the bargain or the deal.

But I am satisfied that that is the intention of the Chinese government.

BLITZER: The last time you may have been in China -- I don't know if you have been there since you were defense secretary. But in 1998 when you were there as defense secretary, you opened up a strategic dialogue with China to get them closer militarily with the United States. How has that unfolded?

COHEN: Well, I think it's been mixed. There was some initial positive reaction, but then we had the EP3 aircraft collision, which set relations back somewhat. They're on a very positive track now.

There has been a proposal to set up a hot line military to military which is still pending with the Chinese government, has yet to be agreed to. But, nonetheless, I think our relations with the Chinese have been on a steady incline. And it is a very positive one to date. So, I would hope that that military-to-military cooperation could be extended and expanded much further than it is today.

BLITZER: Secretary William Cohen, joining us from Beijing via videophone, have a safe trip overseas. We'll see you back here in Washington, if not on television soon. Appreciate it very much.

COHEN: Great. Thank you.

BLITZER: And let's take a quick look now at some other stories making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): A U.S. Navy nuclear submarine arrived back at its home port in Guam after a deadly accident en route to Australia. The USS San Francisco hit an undersea mountain head on Saturday, killing one sailor who had recently reenlisted; 23 crew members were injured. Authorities say the sub's reactor plant was not damaged. Pakistan unrest. Angry demonstrators took to the streets of Karachi after religious fighting between rival Shiite and Sunni Muslims killed 14 people. The violence was triggered when a Shiite leader was wounded and one of his bodyguards killed in an attack in the northern city of Gilgit.

No smoking. A smoking ban is in effect in Italy, forcing those who want to light up to go outside. The measure prohibits smoking in bars, restaurants, offices and other public spaces. Violators are subject to fines of up to $2,900.

The march of love; 30,000 people took to the streets of Santiago, Chile, to celebrate what was billed as the first musical love parade in Latin America.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: CBS shakeup, a controversial move that's generating lots of talk today. We'll have reaction from both sides of the political spectrum. That's coming up next.

Also, we're getting additional information on that horrible mud slide, lots of mud slides unfolding in California right now, this happening only in the past couple of hours. We understand there are casualties.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More now on the shakeup at CBS News in the wake of the flawed report questioning President Bush's National Guard service.

CNN's Mary Snow is in New York with reaction to the ouster of four top employees -- Mary.

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, reaction to the CBS shakeup is stretching far beyond the confines of the media industry. The House majority whip, for example, is calling on CBS to retract its report that called President Bush's National Guard service into question.

That's just one of the many strong voices that are coming into reaction on this story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW (voice-over): It was a hot topic across the country. News that CBS fired a top producer and asked three executives to resign over its report on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard prompted reaction at the White House.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, we felt all along that it was important for CBS to get to the bottom of this. CBS has taken steps to hold people accountable, and we appreciate those steps.

SNOW: And on the streets of Chicago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do think it was justified, because you lose -- people lose credibility in the media, then where are they going to turn to?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that they probably went far enough. But they definitely needed to send a message to the general media that, you know, reporting news is not a game or for entertainment.

SNOW: On the airwaves, a different take, from Rush Limbaugh's conservative talk show, to New York's public radio, which tends to have a more liberal audience.

BRIAN LEHRER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: This is up there in the top tier of hot-button topics.

SNOW: News talk show host Brian Lehrer said the No. 1 question he received on the CBS report today was whether it was politically motivated. The report says the story was not.

LEHRER: It plays into the pro-Bush, anti-Bush fervor that exists on both sides of the political divide in this country. We really are a red state/blue state country to a meaningful degree, or at least individuals on each side of that divide have a tremendous amount of zeal right now.

SNOW: Rush Limbaugh criticized the CBS report as poorly written and charge that CBS wanted the story to be true because it had an axe to grind with President Bush. But others say the competitive pressures of campaign coverage played a more pivotal role.

MARVIN KALB, FORMER NETWORK NEWS CORRESPONDENT: They were in the midst of a flaming, competitive environment right in the midst of a presidential campaign. They wanted to get this story out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: And also reaction today from the chairman of the Republican National Committee, who said that Americans should welcome CBS' report on what he called its unprofessional conduct -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Mary Snow reporting for us -- thanks, Mary, very much.

Braving the cold for the sake of traditional, why these lifeguards -- take a look at this -- why these lifeguards are taking a frigid plunge.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More on the developing story we've been following this hour, a major landslide in the California coastal community of La Conchita, between Los Angeles and Santa Barbara. A rain-soaked hillside gave way this afternoon, damaging as many as 20 homes, killing at least one person, according to the Associated Press. The death toll in California reported so far, 10, as a series of storms continue to batter that state.

In our picture of the day, a frigid start to the new year for a group of German lifeguards; 334 lifeguards braved the cold waters of Rhine River in Dusseldorf Saturday as part of the annual New Year's swim. The event takes roughly 20 minutes to complete. It started 40 years ago.

That's it for me. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com

Aired January 10, 2005 - 17:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: It's going from bad to worse. Happening now. Look at this, mudslides, horrible mudslides in California. We have new pictures coming in. The weather in California, simply horrendous. We'll show you what's going on.
Also happening now. Targeting insurgents in Iraq. 20 days before the scheduled elections, is there a new Pentagon plan to take them out? Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): You've seen the stunning images. Now, the stunning story. Why they were caught in the streets as the sea swept through their city.

Relentless weather, raging rivers, mudslides and mountains of snow. As the death toll rises, a dramatic rescue effort.

Storm at CBS. Dan Rather called the story radioactive. Now, the fallout. And the oustings. I'll speak with former CBS correspondent Bernard Goldberg.

He brokered the first peace deal. Is it time for the U.S. to force another deal? Tough talk from a former president. I'll speak with Jimmy Carter.

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Monday, January 10, 2005.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: We're going to have much more on the mudslides, the horrible weather in California. Let's show you those pictures again. This is from our affiliate KCAL. It's a KCAL exclusive. This is what's been going on in California over the past couple of hours. Part of a horrible weather pattern that has included rain and snow. We'll have much more on this coming up shortly.

But let's get to another horrible weather pattern. More than two weeks after the Indian Ocean tsunamis, it's still very hard if not impossible for most of us to grasp the full extent of the horror what happened there. Now, there's videotape from Indonesia that tells the story unlike anything else we've seen up to this point. Jonathan Miller reports from Banda Aceh in Indonesia where a massive earthquake was only the beginning. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN MILLER, ITV CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): When the massive earthquake rocked Banda Aceh just after 8:00 a.m. on the 26th of December, a man called Hashim (ph) surveyed the destruction and went out with his handycam. He'd been on his way to film a wedding. Many buildings had collapsed. Uniformed sales assistants from a crumbled shopping center were trying to revive an unconscious colleague. Rescuers began their search for bodies. And thousands of dazed local residents milled around in the streets fearing aftershocks.

As Hashim wandered around shooting pictures of smashed cabinets and shops, shop owners were busily rearranging their stock. Nearly half an hour had gone by since the quake. No one had any idea what was heading their way.

Suddenly, there was panic. Hashim climbed a wall near the mosque just as the first ton of inky black water slid down the street. People were trying to outrun the wave. And at first, it seemed they might have a chance. Then came the surge. Can you imagine the terror, seeing this monster advancing and having nowhere to run to? I can't believe I've met people who survived being swept up in this. But not many did.

You can't see any people in there, but there will have been hundreds. The tsunami had already bulldozed Banda's suburbs by the time it reached here right in the heart of the city. Carried away everything in its path. As the water level stabilized, Hashim turned his camera on other horror-struck spectators. They were clinging to parapets. They lined the roof of the mosque. There's even someone in the top of this palm tree.

Hashim gave his extraordinary tsunami tape to a national TV station. We don't know why he held on to it so long. All around Banda Aceh, they gathered to watch, mesmerized. Hashim himself provided the commentary. That's him in the box bottom right. He said the battery on his handycam was almost flat. He only managed to film a few minutes of the actual tsunami.

We reckon this was pretty much the spot where Hashim, the amateur cameraman was standing when the tsunami hit. The raging torrent filled with all that lethal debris came coursing down these two streets here, reaching a confluence at this crossroads right across from Banda Aceh's grand mosque. The mosque is five kilometers from the sea, yet even here the wave reached that second story over there more than ten feet high.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: That was Jonathan Miller of ITV reporting. What an amazing, amazing story. So far the U.S. government has committed $315 million for tsunami relief. President Bush says he'll wait to see whether more help is necessary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're now entering a second phase of providing for rehabilitation to these affected societies as well as a reconstruction effort. And as the secretary said yesterday, the government of the United States is committed to helping the people who suffer. We're committed today and we will be committed tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The scope is dramatically different, but California is also suffering at the hands of nature. Take a look at this videotape we just received from KCAL, our affiliate out in California. A mudslide in the La Conchita area along Highway 101. Mudslides to the north and to the south. Sheriff's buses brought about 150 people out of the area to county fairgrounds. A sheriff also says there was concern the Ventura River could crest and come over Highway 101. But these pictures clearly underscore what's going on in California. Indeed in that state from north to south, Californians are grappling with record rainfall and snowfall as a storm after storm pummels the state. CNN's Peter Viles is out near northwest of Los Angeles, Santa Clarita right now. He's got more -- Peter.

PETER VILES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, it is absolutely remarkable what this storm has done to the Los Angeles region in five days. Five straight days of rain with mudslides like the one you just showed have taken a region that is famous for being so dry, where forest fire is the main risk, taken that region and really transformed it. Right now this is a treacherous patchwork, this Los Angeles region, of flash floods and mudslides.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): A rescue mission in southern California. This man was swept along for two miles, lost his car, even lost his pants, but escaped with his life after rescue workers actually followed him through those flood waters.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had people that were actually running the river bank and keeping an eye on him. Captain Magolian (ph) on Engine 81 and myself on truck 811 went down one of the main streets and set up at the bridge. And we had visual with him the whole time and set up the rope systems to get him out of the water.

VILES: The heavy rains caused rock and mudslides throughout the region. At this mobile home park north of Los Angeles, a river formed almost overnight and threatened dozens of homes. Workers used heavy equipment to try to dig a trench to channel the floodwaters and save the homes. At least five homes were lost, though, including this man's.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Two minutes ago, less than two minutes ago it fell. But yesterday I had two sheds and this is two days ago, this is like two minutes ago.

VILES: Slick roads and mudslides caused hundreds of traffic accidents stranding cars as far south as Temecula (ph) near San Diego and proving deadly in Malibu. This vehicle hit a patch of mud and skidded off the Pacific Coast highway right into the Pacific Ocean. Four passengers were rescued. One was killed.

A mudslide in the Hollywood Hills destroyed this home. Amazingly there were no serious injuries. Two children were rescued from the mud that destroyed the home. A 2-year-old girl, however, was lost, swept out of her mother's arms and killed just as rescue workers were trying to save the mother and child at this flooded intersection.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(on camera): Wolf, as you pointed out, this is the same storm system that is bringing record setting snowfall to the mountains just about 20 miles north of here. In some high elevations of those mountains they've received the most snow, about 20 feet, that they've had in 90 years. But down here closer to sea level, of course, the story is rain. To date this year in Los Angeles, Wolf, 21 inches of rain. In a typical entire year Los Angeles gets about 15 inches. We've had more than a year's worth of rain in ten days -- Wolf.

BLITZER: That's pretty amazing. Peter Viles reporting for us.

California isn't the only state dealing with weather woes. Search crews in Pennsylvania are hoping that water levels in the swollen Ohio River will drop enough to allow them to search for a sunken tugboat. Three crew members were killed when the vessel sank early yesterday after it was swept over a dam spillway. Another crew member is still missing. The tugboat was pushing six barges of coal which also sank. The incident happened in Industry, about 25 miles northwest of Pittsburgh.

The Ohio River is over its banks in a number of areas including Cincinnati. Officials there expect the river to crest today at five feet above flood stage. The flooding is a double whammy for the state. Thousands of people are still without power from last week's ice storm.

In other news, it was a stunning report with huge implications for the presidential campaign, but perhaps even more shocking than the CBS story questioning President Bush's National Guard service, there had been many of those stories before, was the network's turnaround when it admitted it could no longer vouch for its facts. Now the other shoe has dropped and several top CBS news executives are out of a job. CNN's Chris Huntington joins us now live from New York with more -- Chris.

CHRIS HUNTINGTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this was a report that was three months in the making. A lengthy independent review of just exactly what happened at CBS News with that September 8 broadcast. The lengthy review offers an unflattering assessment of the breakdown of journalistic standards at CBS News.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): In early September, veteran CBS News producer Mary Mapes thought she had the story of the presidential election. That George W. Bush had shirked his duties in the Texas Air National Guard and that four letters reportedly written by Bush's commanding officer at the time proved it.

DAN RATHER, CBS NEWS ANCHOR: Tonight we have new documents and new information on the president's military service.

HUNTINGTON: In fact, all that Mapes had were four ragged photo copies that neither she nor her colleagues at "60 Minutes Wednesday" nor several document specialists could authenticate at the time. Now a 224-page report prepared by former U.S. attorney general Richard Thornburgh and Louis Boccardi, the former CEO of the Associated Press finds, quote, "considerable and fundamental deficiencies relating to the reporting and production of the September 8 segment." That, quote, "myopic zeal to break the story ahead of other news organizations resulted in a rush to air that overwhelmed the proper application of CBS News standards."

ALEX JONES, SHORENSTEIN CENTER: I don't think there's any more destructive element in television news now than the competition to be first. This is a story about newspeople who fell in love with a story, and falling in love is a kind of madness. And that afflicts people in the news business just like it afflicts all of us sometimes.

HUNTINGTON: Thornburgh and Boccardi present a revealing look at the chaotic pressure cooker at "60 Minutes Wednesday" trying to push through a controversial story in just a few days including Mapes and an associate producer scrambling over Labor Day weekend to find document experts just days before the report would go to air. Mapes is described in the report as dismissing objections raised by those experts and then convincing CBS News executives that the documents had been validate. Dan Rather is described as out of the loop, covering Hurricane Frances in Florida. But Rather did tell CBS News president Andrew Heyward that, quote, "this story could be radioactive" and that Heyward should have it checked out thoroughly. Heyward then e-mailed Betsy West the executive overseeing "60 Minutes," "we're going to have to defend every syllable on this one." Betsy West as well as two other executives at "60 Minutes Wednesday" have lost their jobs all because a veteran producer thought she had a scoop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The vetting process didn't work, that people trusted the word of one person without checking the documents or the experts that produced them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HUNTINGTON: Now, Moonves also said that CBS will immediately adopt one of the chief recommendations of the Thornburgh/Boccardi report and that is a new executive position to oversee reporting standards. By the way, Wolf, the Thornburgh/Boccardi report itself could not authenticate the documents. So we still don't know if those documents were real or forged.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Chris Huntington with a solid report from New York. Thanks very much. We'll have reaction to the controversial shake-up at CBS News and the allegations that the oustings are politically motivated. I'll speak with former CBS correspondent and author Bernard Goldberg. That's coming up next.

Increased violence in Iraq and now talk of drastic measures. Could U.S.-trained forces soon operate as secret death squads?

Fair and free. Palestinians elect a new leader and renew hope for peace in the Middle East. The former president of the United States, Jimmy Carter, is in the region. My interview with him, that's coming up as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Our coverage of the CBS News story continues now. I'm joined from our Miami bureau by Bernard Goldberg, a former CBS correspondent and the author of the best selling book "Bias, A CBS Insider Exposes How The Media Distort the News." Bernie, thanks very much for joining us. A lot of our viewers are interested. First of all, was this a thorough report? Are you satisfied with the bottom line conclusions of this report?

BERNARD GOLDBERG, FMR. CBS CORRESPONDENT: Well, to state the obvious, they don't care whether I'm satisfied or not. But look, I think after three months they put a lot of work into it and deserve some credit, but it's disingenuous, I think, Wolf, to simply conclude that they made a mistake without going into some detail about how they made the mistake beyond this zeal to be first. I don't think this story would have ever seen the light of day if their source, instead of being a Bush -- someone who disliked President Bush, someone with a vendetta against President Bush, was, let's say, a conservative Republican who had a vendetta against John Kerry. If this report were about not George Bush being a slacker during the Vietnam War but about John Kerry being a slacker during the Vietnam War, they would have been much more careful. Yes, they made a mistake. Dan Rather had no idea that these documents were phony, but they made a mistake, in my view, anyway, because, a, they wanted the story to be true, and because it fit their own preconceived notions about George Bush.

BLITZER: Basically, though, what I can tell from reading the document is they had such high regard for this Mary Mapes, the senior producer who was involved in putting it together, she had been a star at "60 Minutes" for so many years.

GOLDBERG: Right.

BLITZER: They simply assumed she knew what she was doing.

GOLDBERG: Yes, I have some inside information on this because I'm still a reporter and I still talk to people on the inside. Mary Mapes is the real villain in all of this. I almost feel sorry for my old friend Dan Rather. Mary Mapes really misled a whole bunch of people, but, you know, the report concluded that there was no evidence of bias. And you know, in the reporting. And I agree, there was no evidence of bias. I'm not sure what evidence they thought they'd find. Did they think there was going to be a memo that said, let's stick to it George W. Bush? Of course there was no evidence. But I'm saying this...

BLITZER: Let me read, Bernie, I'll interrupt for a second, from the commission, the independent review panel's findings on this issue. "The panel does not find a bias to accuse those who investigated, produced, vetted or aired the segment of having a political bias. The panel does note, however, that on such a politically charged story coming in the midst of a presidential campaign in which military service records had become an issue, there was a need for meticulous care to avoid any suggestion of an agenda at work."

GOLDBERG: And I'm going a step further. I'm saying there was an agenda at work. I'm not saying that Dan Rather went into this saying, I'm going to get George Bush. It's never -- that is not the nature of bias in the news. It never, ever happens that way. But I am saying that he wanted this story to be true, and Mary Mapes sure wanted that story to be true. And did he depend too much on her? Yes, that's obvious. But if he didn't want this story to be true, if it didn't fit the culture of CBS' preconceived notions about liberals and conservatives and Democrats and Republicans, it would have never seen the light of day and we would never be talking about it.

BLITZER: Their defenders say they wanted it to be true, they fell in love with the story, not because of a bias or a political agenda, but because they thought it was a great story, and as journalists, you and I know, we love great stories.

GOLDBERG: Yes, and I think when you're working with investigative producers -- and it's the scariest thing in the world -- I've worked with them -- when they fall in love with the story, head for the hills. Because you may have big, big problems, as we see here. But what I'm saying is, they didn't simply fall in love with a great story. They would have never -- I know these people, I know these people. And even more than knowing these people, I know the culture at CBS News. They would have never fallen in love with a story that made the other side look as bad as they made George Bush. They just wouldn't have.

BLITZER: All right, let's talk about Dan Rather for a moment. Leslie Moonves and his statement released in conjunction with the report says this: "Dan Rather has already apologized for the segment and taken personal responsibility for his part in the broadcast. He voluntarily moved to set a date to step down from 'The CBS Evening News' anchor chair in March of 2005, which will give him more time to concentrate on his reporting for CBS News. After examining the report and thinking about its implications, we believe any further action would not be appropriate."

Is that appropriate for Leslie Moonves to have reached that conclusion?

GOLDBERG: Yeah, he's the boss. Whatever he decides, in a sense, is appropriate. Dan Rather's legacy is going to be two-fold, I think. One is that he's a reporter with tremendous courage, physical courage, especially. He's covered every major story since the assassination of John F. Kennedy, and he was the first reporter on that story. And he deserves tremendous credit for all of that. But the other part of the legacy that I'm sure the report doesn't go into, because it's not the purview of the report, is that Dan Rather is unwilling and maybe even incapable of taking serious criticism seriously. His first reaction is to circle the wagons, and that isn't healthy for anybody, certainly not for a journalist. The first thing he did in this story is to say this was the work -- to people who were criticizing him -- this is the work of partisan political forces. Well, you know what? You know who the partisan political forces were? His source, his producer and maybe Dan Rather himself.

BLITZER: Dan Rather is also listed as managing editor of "The CBS Evening News," not just a reader, a news reader, if you will.

GOLDBERG: Right.

BLITZER: He is quoted in the report as having said to CBS News President Andrew Heyward, this is radioactive, make sure this is all right. I'm busy, I've got a million things going on, including the hurricanes in Florida. Andrew Heyward, he's not being fired, he's allowed to continue. Do you accept that?

GOLDBERG: Again, it doesn't matter if I accept it. But I read that quote of Dan Rather's when he made it in "The New York Times," and I thought Dan Rather was brilliant by doing that, because now he's linked himself to Andrew Heyward.

I will say this, I like Andrew Heyward a lot. There was a time when he was, if anybody cares, my best friend. But if you think Ronald Reagan is the teflon president, you have never met Andrew Heyward. There is no -- I would have bet the ranch that he wasn't going to go down on this thing.

Now, whether or not three months from now, six months from now Andrew Heyward announces that he wants to pursue other challenges and all that, that may be, but you know, there were a number of people in the meetings on this story, and Andrew Heyward was one of them. So Andrew Heyward -- I don't think that the captain of the ship, because he's the president of CBS News, ipso facto, he ought to be punished for this. But he was involved at every level of this story. Maybe not every single, you know, little thing, but he was involved in all the meetings that Dan Rather went to, that Heyward went to, that Betsy West went to and that Mary Mapes went to and that Josh Howard and Mary Murphy, the two producers, went to.

And you know, I just think it is going to be awfully difficult for Dan Rather and Andrew Heyward to go into work when all these other people have lost their jobs. I mean, I know some of these people. And they're very good and they're very decent. They've lost their jobs, but Rather, the reporter on the story, hasn't lost his job. He's still making a seven-figure salary. And Andrew Heyward hasn't lost his. I'm not saying he should have. But if I'm Andrew Heyward I'm feeling mighty funny about this, you know, this survivor -- I'd have survivor guilt, let's put it that way.

BLITZER: Bernard Goldberg, we'll leave it right there. Continue this conversation on another occasion. Thanks very much for joining us.

GOLDBERG: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: Is there a new plan targeting insurgents in Iraq? A plan that dates back to a secret strategy used by the Reagan administration?

Plus, a new chapter begins in the Middle East as Palestinians elect a replacement to Yasser Arafat. Former President Jimmy Carter was there. He'll join me, that's coming up.

And we'll have more on the controversial changes at CBS News. Our Mary Snow is monitoring the airwaves. She has reaction to what's going on. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Insurgents in Iraq today carried out deadly attacks against American troops and Iraqi officials. Baghdad's deputy police chief and his son were gunned down in their car as they drove to work. It was only the latest in a series of assassinations of top Iraqi officials. The interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi acknowledges the upsurge in attacks, but says the January 30th national elections will go ahead as scheduled.

In another attack, two American soldiers were killed when their Bradley fighting vehicle was destroyed by a roadside bomb. Four American soldiers were wounded.

As U.S. military planners look for ways to combat the insurgency, could local hit teams be unleashed against its leaders? Let's bring in CNN's Brian Todd. He's got more on that -- Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, that's a question that we put to several former U.S. military intelligence and special forces officers. The answer falls into those gray areas of combat and counterinsurgency.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): With coalition casualties mounting and elections nearing, military intelligence experts agree Iraqi insurgents are as bold as ever, and their attacks are getting more sophisticated.

Countering this insurgency and adapting with it are challenges now provoking intense debate in intelligence circles. Pentagon officials dispute a report suggesting that a so-called Salvador option has been discussed, the idea that U.S.-trained Iraqis would operate like the Salvadoran death squads of the 1980s, hunting down and killing enemy insurgents.

KEN ROBINSON, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I don't believe the Department of Defense is trying to build death squads.

TODD: The experts we spoke to, four former military intelligence and special forces, some involved in recent high-level Pentagon discussions, all say the Salvadoran model is a nonstarter. At that time, the U.S.-backed Salvadoran regime was heavily criticized for allowing lawless paramilitary units to kill innocent civilians.

But intelligence analysts all say U.S. special-ops teams are working with sympathetic Iraqis to legitimately target insurgents.

RETIRED BRIG. GEN. JAMES MARKS, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: U.S. special forces, both what we call acknowledged and unacknowledged operations are ongoing in Iraq right now. And there's a great effort to train Iraqis to assist in that. And, frankly, why wouldn't we want to do that? Look, a lot of bad people have got to die if we're to get a handle on this terrorism.

TODD: U.S. officials have long believed some insurgents and their leaders are being harbored in Syria. But analysts insist the Pentagon is likely not considering sending U.S.-led teams into Syria to track enemy fighters.

ROBINSON: If those locations where that type of support could be located and then a unilateral action would occur by Iraqis or the United States government, that would seriously escalate our problems with the Syrian government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: Intelligence analysts say the use of special operations forces is expanding in Iraq, but they all acknowledge determining a legitimate target, who goes after it and under whose authority is often a blurry equation that has to be carefully worked out on the ground, Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Todd, reporting for us. Thanks for clarifying that issue for us, Brian.

The Palestinians elect a new leader, but what does that mean for the prospect of Middle East peace? I'll speak about that with the former President Jimmy Carter. He's in Jerusalem monitoring the elections.

U.S./Chinese relations. Can the two countries unite to help rid North Korea of its nuclear weapons? Former U.S. Defense Secretary William Cohen is in Beijing right now. He's standing by to join me live.

And four CBS News employees lose their jobs over that controversial CBS News report about President Bush's National Guard service. But does that repair the damage to CBS' reputation? Our Mary Snow is standing by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: A day after his election as the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas got an invitation to the White House, something President Bush never offered the late Yasser Arafat. It is only one measure of the expectations attached to his landslide victory yesterday. Meantime, Israel's prime minister, Ariel Sharon, got a boost today when the Knesset endorsed his new coalition government, which supports the plan to pull out of Gaza and some parts of the West Bank.

Former President Jimmy Carter brokered the first Israeli-Egyptian peace deal. He spoke with me earlier today from Jerusalem, where he monitored the Palestinian election. Carter told me he found it completely fair and free, honest and open, in his words. I asked him if he's convinced that Mahmoud Abbas is a legitimate real partner for peace with the Israelis.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, there's no doubt in my mind about that, Wolf. But much more importantly, when I met with Prime Minister Sharon after arriving here in Jerusalem a few days ago, it was after Abu Mazen had made that statement.

And Prime Minister Sharon told me in no uncertain terms that if this election went smoothly and if Abu Mazen was elected, he would be prepared to meet with him within the near future.

I followed up by asking, You mean in a few weeks or a few days?

He said, Well, hopefully within a few days.

So if the Israelis can accommodate the statement that Abu Mazen made, then I certainly can myself.

You might have to remember, too, that Abu Mazen's expressed reason for making that statement was in the heat of anger and despair, or maybe sorrow, when seven were killed in the middle of an open field near Gaza after they had been under an attack from the urban areas on some Israeli settlements.

So it was in the heat of exchanges, and my hope is, and my expectation is, that Abu Mazen will be very moderate, and progressive, and peaceful -- peaceful to committed in the future. I met with Abu Mazen before the election, as I did...

BLITZER: I think the question, Mr. President -- let me flip the question, and ask you whether or not you believe the prime minister of Israel, Ariel Sharon, is prepared to make the kinds of difficult concessions, territorial concessions, political concessions, that would be required for a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

CARTER: Well, that's still to be decided. And it would have to be done in the intensity of direct negotiations.

Obviously, the United States will play a major role. The fact is now that the only game on the table ultimately is the so-called road map that's been put forward, as you know, by four nations, including the United States. And President Bush has endorsed the road map in its entirety, as have the leaders of the other three nations.

Abu Mazen and Abu Allah, who is the prime minister of the Palestinians, both told me in the last two days they accept the George Bush road map, as you might call it, in its entirety.

The caveats or exceptions have been demanded by the prime minister of Israel, Sharon. So in effect, in a strange way, you have President Bush and Abu Mazen on one side, saying, We support the road map in its entirety.

You have the Israeli prime minister on the other hand saying, We don't accept it, except with 14 major exceptions.

So we don't know what's going to happen. That will have to come out in the negotiations.

BLITZER: The other day I interviewed Brent Scowcroft, who was the national security adviser to the first President Bush, and he surprised me. He said that he now believes the United States government must impose a settlement on the Israelis and the Palestinians since they can't do it by themselves.

Listen precisely to what Brent Scowcroft said on CNN's LATE EDITION.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRENT SCOWCROFT, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: I've been opposed to that for most of this conflict. I think it is the only solution now. The two sides by themselves, the animosity is so deep and the mistrust is so wide, that they can never do it by themselves. We've got to say, this is it.

The outlines of a settlement are really quite clear. There are a few rough edges that need to be honed off. But it is not difficult to see what a settlement is now. But we are the ones that have to impose it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Do you agree with him?

CARTER: Yes I do. And as I mentioned earlier I'm not trying to draw lines or anything.

But at this moment, if the internationally approved road map, which has been adopted by President Bush, is the basis for future peace, then President Bush and Abu Mazen are in complete concert. They are in agreement.

The one who is opposing the major principles of the road map, including withdrawal of the settlements from the West Bank or most of them, is the prime minister of Israeli. And I don't know that he would possibly change that position except under influence. I wouldn't say pressure from the United States. And you have to realize, too, that the other three members of the international committee, in effect, that have drafted the road map with the leadership of George W. Bush are all in concert with what I've just said.

So it's going to be -- there's going to be difficult decisions made.

The first step, obviously, already endorsed by Prime Minister Sharon, is the withdraw from Gaza strip. And this will be a very significant, and very difficult but very minor move in the totality of a future of complete political settlement.

BLITZER: Mr. President, kind of you to spend a few moments with us. Thanks very much for joining us here on CNN and CNN International.

CARTER: It's always a pleasure to be with you, Wolf, and all the viewers and listeners around the world of CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Disarming North Korea's nuclear arsenal. Can the U.S. rely on China to help defuse the situation? Former Defense Secretary William Cohen is in Beijing right now. He's standing by to join us live.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: North Korea's nuclear weapons program is an issue that's frustrated the Bush administration almost from day one. Six- party talks aimed at getting rid of those weapons have been stalled for months, with no sign of when they might resume.

But an American congressman is in the northern part of Korea right now and another delegation is due to arrive next week. China is a key player in the six-party talks, which also include South Korea, Japan and Russia.

Joining us now live in Beijing with his take on this and other developments, our world affairs analyst William Cohen.

Mr. Secretary, thanks very much for joining us.

Do you see any hope right now that the administration can get this North Korean nuclear issue intact somehow?

WILLIAM COHEN, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: I do, Wolf. I think there's a very dedicated effort on the part of the Chinese government to bring about a successful resolution of the situation with North Korea.

The meetings that I've held thus far, there's every indication that they want to focus on ways in which the energy needs also of the North Koreans can be met, whether there can be a coalition of assistance to be delivered to the North Koreans dealing with their energy requirements. And so, I've so far detected a very strong commitment to resolving this successfully. There is really no other option, because the North Koreans, by going to a nuclear-producing capability, would destabilize the entire region, and the Chinese government recognizes that.

BLITZER: So, the Chinese government -- and you are in China right now speaking to our viewers. Is the Chinese government in Beijing on board? Is it ready to use its influence to stop the North Koreans from developing more nuclear bombs?

COHEN: I think the Chinese government is a key player in the six-party talks. And they want to work with the coalition, the six parties, as such, to develop a program whereby the North Koreans will agree to give up their nuclear ambitions and there will be some reciprocal program, economic to be sure, but also energy included in that, that would be part of the bargain or the deal.

But I am satisfied that that is the intention of the Chinese government.

BLITZER: The last time you may have been in China -- I don't know if you have been there since you were defense secretary. But in 1998 when you were there as defense secretary, you opened up a strategic dialogue with China to get them closer militarily with the United States. How has that unfolded?

COHEN: Well, I think it's been mixed. There was some initial positive reaction, but then we had the EP3 aircraft collision, which set relations back somewhat. They're on a very positive track now.

There has been a proposal to set up a hot line military to military which is still pending with the Chinese government, has yet to be agreed to. But, nonetheless, I think our relations with the Chinese have been on a steady incline. And it is a very positive one to date. So, I would hope that that military-to-military cooperation could be extended and expanded much further than it is today.

BLITZER: Secretary William Cohen, joining us from Beijing via videophone, have a safe trip overseas. We'll see you back here in Washington, if not on television soon. Appreciate it very much.

COHEN: Great. Thank you.

BLITZER: And let's take a quick look now at some other stories making headlines around the world.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): A U.S. Navy nuclear submarine arrived back at its home port in Guam after a deadly accident en route to Australia. The USS San Francisco hit an undersea mountain head on Saturday, killing one sailor who had recently reenlisted; 23 crew members were injured. Authorities say the sub's reactor plant was not damaged. Pakistan unrest. Angry demonstrators took to the streets of Karachi after religious fighting between rival Shiite and Sunni Muslims killed 14 people. The violence was triggered when a Shiite leader was wounded and one of his bodyguards killed in an attack in the northern city of Gilgit.

No smoking. A smoking ban is in effect in Italy, forcing those who want to light up to go outside. The measure prohibits smoking in bars, restaurants, offices and other public spaces. Violators are subject to fines of up to $2,900.

The march of love; 30,000 people took to the streets of Santiago, Chile, to celebrate what was billed as the first musical love parade in Latin America.

And that's our look around the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: CBS shakeup, a controversial move that's generating lots of talk today. We'll have reaction from both sides of the political spectrum. That's coming up next.

Also, we're getting additional information on that horrible mud slide, lots of mud slides unfolding in California right now, this happening only in the past couple of hours. We understand there are casualties.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More now on the shakeup at CBS News in the wake of the flawed report questioning President Bush's National Guard service.

CNN's Mary Snow is in New York with reaction to the ouster of four top employees -- Mary.

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, reaction to the CBS shakeup is stretching far beyond the confines of the media industry. The House majority whip, for example, is calling on CBS to retract its report that called President Bush's National Guard service into question.

That's just one of the many strong voices that are coming into reaction on this story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW (voice-over): It was a hot topic across the country. News that CBS fired a top producer and asked three executives to resign over its report on President Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard prompted reaction at the White House.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, we felt all along that it was important for CBS to get to the bottom of this. CBS has taken steps to hold people accountable, and we appreciate those steps.

SNOW: And on the streets of Chicago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I do think it was justified, because you lose -- people lose credibility in the media, then where are they going to turn to?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that they probably went far enough. But they definitely needed to send a message to the general media that, you know, reporting news is not a game or for entertainment.

SNOW: On the airwaves, a different take, from Rush Limbaugh's conservative talk show, to New York's public radio, which tends to have a more liberal audience.

BRIAN LEHRER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: This is up there in the top tier of hot-button topics.

SNOW: News talk show host Brian Lehrer said the No. 1 question he received on the CBS report today was whether it was politically motivated. The report says the story was not.

LEHRER: It plays into the pro-Bush, anti-Bush fervor that exists on both sides of the political divide in this country. We really are a red state/blue state country to a meaningful degree, or at least individuals on each side of that divide have a tremendous amount of zeal right now.

SNOW: Rush Limbaugh criticized the CBS report as poorly written and charge that CBS wanted the story to be true because it had an axe to grind with President Bush. But others say the competitive pressures of campaign coverage played a more pivotal role.

MARVIN KALB, FORMER NETWORK NEWS CORRESPONDENT: They were in the midst of a flaming, competitive environment right in the midst of a presidential campaign. They wanted to get this story out.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: And also reaction today from the chairman of the Republican National Committee, who said that Americans should welcome CBS' report on what he called its unprofessional conduct -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Mary Snow reporting for us -- thanks, Mary, very much.

Braving the cold for the sake of traditional, why these lifeguards -- take a look at this -- why these lifeguards are taking a frigid plunge.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: More on the developing story we've been following this hour, a major landslide in the California coastal community of La Conchita, between Los Angeles and Santa Barbara. A rain-soaked hillside gave way this afternoon, damaging as many as 20 homes, killing at least one person, according to the Associated Press. The death toll in California reported so far, 10, as a series of storms continue to batter that state.

In our picture of the day, a frigid start to the new year for a group of German lifeguards; 334 lifeguards braved the cold waters of Rhine River in Dusseldorf Saturday as part of the annual New Year's swim. The event takes roughly 20 minutes to complete. It started 40 years ago.

That's it for me. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" starts right now.

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