Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Wolf Blitzer Reports

Anthrax Suspected in Pentagon Mail Facility; Former WorldCom CEO Found Guilty

Aired March 15, 2005 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now: a developing story. It's a potential killer that brought death to five Americans in the fall of 2001. Has anthrax now returned, this time to the Pentagon? Preliminary tests are in. Those preliminary tests show the result is positive.
Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Arms for sale in America.

DAVID KELLEY, U.S. ATTORNEY: Various military weapons, including rocket-propelled grenade launchers, which are known as RPGs, shoulder- fired surface to air missiles, known as SAMs.

BLITZER: Was the alleged arsenal meant for terrorists? I'll ask New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly.

Hezbollah off the hook?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We view Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

BLITZER (voice-over): But could President Bush let the Lebanese militants into the political mainstream?

Bound and shackled. The alleged courthouse killer is back before a judge.

FRANK COX, MAGISTRATE JUDGE: Anything else you wish to say?

BRIAN NICHOLS, COURTHOUSE SHOOTING SUSPECT: Not at this time.

BLITZER: From cable news to gay marriage to the war on Iraq, we'll get some face time with "Real Time"'s Bill Maher.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Tuesday, March 15, 2005.

BLITZER: Thanks for joining us.

A new anthrax scare right here in the nation's capital. And within the past hour, new test results, they're raising fears of a possible repeat of the 2001 anthrax attack that which killed five people and sickened 22 others.

Our homeland security correspondent, Jeanne Meserve, standing by with the latest in a "CNN Security Watch" report. What is the latest, Jeanne?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, two sources tell CNN that one test on samples from the Pentagon's remote delivery facility have come back positive for anthrax.

However, further test results are expected and needed from the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases in Fort Detrick, Maryland, before definitive conclusions can be drawn.

Meanwhile, the Commonwealth of Virginia is moving pharmaceuticals and personnel to Northern Virginia as a precautionary measure.

It was, as you mentioned, three years ago that anthrax attacks killed two D.C. postal workers. Today we saw some of the lessons learned.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here we go again.

MESERVE (voice-over): Three-day doses of the antibiotic Cipro handed out protectively to about 250 D.C. postal workers, whose facility processes mail that ends up at the Pentagon's remote delivery facility.

PAUL HARRINGTON, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE: We aren't sure. But it's likely that we did, so we're going to take every possible precaution. We're going to err on the side of safety.

MESERVE: The postal facility in Northeast D.C. was closed Monday night and is undergoing testing for contamination. And city officials are taking additional steps.

DR. GREGG PANE, D.C. HEALTH DEPARTMENT: We have also mobilized our hospital network and our epidemiologic surveillance. So they're on the lookout and alert for any cases that could be related to anthrax.

MESERVE: Meanwhile, a flurry of activity throughout the D.C. hazardous materials teams. First, a call from the Internal Revenue Service about a suspicious letter leaking a black substance.

ALAN ETTER, D.C. DEPARTMENT OF FIRE AND EMS: HAZMAT tested the material and came up with a high probability of the kind of material that you would use in rat poison.

MESERVE: There was another suspicious letter at CNN's Washington bureau. Testing ruled out a hazard.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE: Mail deliveries to the federal government have been suspended. According to officials for the U.S. Postal Service, they hope to restore normal service shortly. But that all depends on the pending results and definitive results from Fort Detrick -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I will wait anxiously for those results. Jeanne Meserve, reporting for us. Thank you, Jeanne, very much.

Let's check in with our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre. Jamie, what are they saying where you are?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, if it turns out that it is, in fact, anthrax that was in that -- an air filter at a Pentagon mail sorting machine, it will show that the system worked, sort of.

It does appear that the mail has been irradiated and that any anthrax would have been killed. In fact, they have -- more than 60 tests at this remote delivery facility right next to the Pentagon have failed to find any evidence of anthrax.

But Pentagon officials do admit there was a small breakdown in the system. Mail that was supposed to be kept in an air-tight container until those tests came back clearing it for its delivery, some of it actually began to move through the system to distribution points. It had to be recovered and rechecked.

But again, Pentagon officials say so far, they found no evidence of anthrax contamination, nor have any of the people who work at that facility exhibited any signs of exposure to anthrax -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie, how unusual -- you've been at the Pentagon all these years, since the first anthrax attacks, those letter attacks three-and-a-half years or so ago. How unusual is this scare right now?

MCINTYRE: Well, it's very unusual. In fact, one of the reasons apparently some of the mail began to move through the systems is that these tests routinely come back negative, clearing the way for the delivery of the mail at the Pentagon. So this took them a little bit by surprise.

But of course, the whole point of this remote facility -- you saw that big facility in the picture outside the Pentagon. The whole point of that is to make sure that everything that goes into the Pentagon is fully screened before it ever makes it into the building, which is, of course, the headquarters of the U.S. military.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre over at the Pentagon. Jamie, thanks very much.

Later this hour, I'll speak live with a senior homeland security official in Virginia on how that state is handling this situation. Much more on this story coming up later this hour.

Let's move on now to other stories we're following.

Federal authorities today announced the arrests of 18 people charged with attempted arms smuggling. And not just any arms: the alleged plot involved weapons designed to take out tanks and shoot down aircraft.

Let's go live to New York. CNN's Mary Snow is standing by -- Mary.

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, these weapons were said to be traced to the Russian military. The U.S. attorney here in the southern district of Manhattan, David Kelley, earlier today announced that 18 arrests had been made in three different cities. The majority of those arrests were here in New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW (voice-over): It was here, in a modest Manhattan hotel, where the FBI arrested the alleged ringleaders and says it foiled a plot to import Russia-style military weapons into the United States.

Rocket-propelled grenade launchers and shoulder-fired surface-to- air missiles were on the list of weapons that the defendants allegedly talked about with a paid FBI informant.

According to a criminal complaint, the would-be sellers claimed ties to ex-KGB officials and spoke in code, referring to RPGs as "fliers" and machine guns as "puppies."

KELLEY: It appears that the defendants were planning to obtain that weaponry through contacts they had developed in eastern European military circles. We are now working with our counterparts overseas to secure the weapons and to bring to justice conspirators who may be abroad.

SNOW: The arrests culminated a year-long investigation, using the informant posing as an arms broker for unspecified terrorists. The suspects were here illegally, mainly from Armenia, Russia and the Republic of Georgia. Prosecutors say the alleged mastermind, 26-year- old Artur Solomonyan, once hinted at something bigger.

KELLEY: The defendant, Solomonyan, suggested to the confidential informant that he could obtain enriched uranium for possible use by terrorists in the subway system. There was never, however, any such uranium.

SNOW: And the uranium was never discussed again in 15,000 wiretapped phone calls, nor did any of the big weapons make it into the U.S. The charges say only eight machine guns were delivered to New York, Los Angeles and Ft. Lauderdale, but law enforcement officials believe they cracked a potential overseas weapons pipeline.

ANDY ARENA, FBI: These defendants may not have been terrorists themselves, but they've shown a transparent willingness to do anything with anybody, so long as it generates income for their organization.

SNOW: The FBI says the complaint reads like a Hollywood script with secret meetings at New York hotels and restaurants, even inside the sauna and hot tub of a Brooklyn spa. The story ends with the informant promising to deliver green cards to ringleaders so they can travel to pick up weapons.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: Ten of the 18 suspects were arrested here in New York and had their first court appearance here this afternoon. One of the 10 was released on $250,000 bond, which he did not have. He's being detained, pending that bond.

And the attorney for the alleged ringleader, Louis Basouli (ph), is the attorney, saying this is his client's first arrest and that he plans on aggressively putting forth a defense on this, saying we're already starting the process -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Mary Snow, reporting from New York. Mary, thank you very much.

Terrorists could do serious damage with these types of weapons. But did this alleged plot have any terror ties? Joining us now live from New York, the city's police commissioner, Ray Kelly.

Commissioner, thanks very much for joining us.

RAY KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: You're welcome, Wolf.

BLITZER: Is there any evidence these defendants, these suspects had direct ties to al Qaeda or any other terrorist group?

KELLY: No, there's no evidence at this time, but clearly, they didn't care. They were reckless. They certainly were willing to have these weapons go to -- go to terrorists, but it doesn't appear that at this time that they had any direct connection.

BLITZER: Does it look like it was an ideological motivation on the part of these suspects or a financial motivation?

KELLY: No, this is the age-old story of people doing anything for money. They were interested in money. There was no ideology here that investigators found.

BLITZER: Is it fair to call this a sting operation?

KELLY: No. I don't think this was a sting operation. Investigators believed that they were very earnest in their attempts to get weapons from Eastern Europe. They made, as the record shows, some 15,000 calls. And they were trying to get delivery. No question about that, in the investigators' minds.

BLITZER: Can you share with our viewers, without compromising your intelligence, your operation, how you first got wind of this opportunity that these suspects had to sell these kinds of weapons to individuals here in the United States?

KELLY: Well, it was an initial contact, I think, to an FBI confidential informant, who contacted the FBI. And he stated that he was contacted by the two principles in this case. And it kind of took off from there.

So, it wasn't any great -- great mystery here. These were individuals that were primarily interested in making a big buck. They did go overseas. They did take pictures of these weapons, and there's no indication that they, themselves were the victims of a sting.

BLITZER: Do you believe you've apprehended all of the conspirators in this operation? Or are there others that may still be at large?

KELLY: Well, I think all these investigations always have the possibility of going further, but I believe the investigators think they've gotten the core group here. Eighteen people were arrested in this case, so that's a pretty significant number of folks.

BLITZER: What was the decision like to go ahead and end it right now? Because sometimes, as you well know, you keep this operation going if there's no real imminent threat to anyone in the United States, any citizens, only to see if there are maybe some other bigger fish out there that are behind the scenes.

KELLY: Well, this was a decision by the FBI to end this case. And I think it was really triggered by the fact that the two primary individuals wanted to go overseas. In fact, they were getting green cards. That was part of the deal.

They were here illegally, so they weren't able to leave the country and get back. They wanted the green cards. But of course, if they left the country, they may never have come back. So I think it was a prudent decision on behalf of the FBI to make the arrest now.

BLITZER: Commissioner Kelly, people in New York City hear the words "enriched uranium" and "New York subways," those words were uttered by the U.S. attorney, David Kelley earlier, as you just saw. You hear those words, you're bound to get nervous. How nervous should residents of New York City be right now?

KELLY: Well, there's no indication in this case that they had any possibility of getting uranium. That was sort of a puffing statement made by one individual only once, to kind of entice people into the deal.

But clearly, it shows their willingness to deal with terrorists, because who else would be using uranium in the subway system? So, it's disconcerting, of course, to hear that. But there's no indication that there was any basis for that statement.

BLITZER: All right. Commissioner Ray Kelly of New York, as usual, thanks very much, Commissioner.

KELLY: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: And to our viewers, pleas stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security. When we come back, facing a judge for the first time since his alleged shooting outrage, Brian Nichols enters an Atlanta court in shackles, as hundreds gather to remember the three people he allegedly killed.

Guilty on all counts, the man who once headed a multibillion dollar empire now faces prison.

Getting real with the always outspoken Bill Maher. We'll talk politics, baseball, lots more. Bill Maher, he's here. He'll join us live this hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Brian Nichols appeared before a judge today, but under very different circumstances than last week when he allegedly grabbed a deputy's gun and went on a killing spree inside an Atlanta courthouse.

CNN's Kimberly Osias is joining us now live. She's in downtown Atlanta with the latest -- Kimberly.

KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Wolf.

Well, Brian Nichols didn't face any new charges here at the Fulton County jail today. Instead, he remains on the original ones, the same ones he faced on that fateful Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OSIAS (voice-over): Plenty of cameras in the packed courtroom for 33-year-old Brian Nichols, charged again with rape, aggravated sodomy and false imprisonment. Not new charges, but charges which allow prosecutors to keep Nichols behind bars, while the government establishes its other cases against him.

MICHELLE MCCUTCHEON, PROSECUTOR: We would like to give the defendant and counsel notice that the state does intend at a later date to form -- to file formal charges against the defendant for the charges of murder.

OSIAS: Presiding, a judge from a neighboring county. All the judges in Fulton County recused themselves. Magistrate Judge Frank Cox.

FRANK COX, MAGISTRATE JUDGE: Anything else you wish to say?

NICHOLS: Not at this time.

OSIAS: But his defense did.

CHRIS ADAMS, NICHOLS' ATTORNEY: This is a time of grief and mourning for the courthouse community, for all the victims. We're going to respect that. There will be plenty of time for us later to lay out our legal arguments and motions and to examine the evidence and to search for understanding in this case.

OSIAS: Nichols is suspected in four murders, three at the Fulton County Courthouse, one more in an upscale north Atlanta neighborhood of a U.S. customs and immigration officer.

After holding a young woman hostage for seven hours, he surrendered at her Gwinnett County apartment complex.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Because of who you are I give you praise.

OSIAS: Today, Atlantans came together, grieving at same spot where panicked court workers ran for their lives Friday. The courthouse memorial service honored those slain there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: The duration here of the hearing here, about 10 minutes. Prosecutors plan to formally charge Brian Nichols within the next 30 days -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Kimberly Osias, reporting in Atlanta. Kimberly, thank you.

The woman who says Nichols held her hostage and who eventually called 911 will get a reward. Georgia's governor has cleared the way for Ashley Smith to receive $10,000 that the state put up for Nichols capture.

Last night, she asked the news media to move their spotlights off of her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY SMITH, FORMER HOSTAGE: It's natural to focus on the conclusion of any story, but my role was really very small in the grand scheme of things. The really heroes are the judicial and law enforcement officials who gave their lives and those who risked their lives to bring this to an end. Thank you for your prayers, and may God bless you all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: An additional $50,000 in reward money was offered by other agencies. No word yet whether Smith will get that money, as well.

In the closely watched trial of former WorldCom CEO Bernie Ebbers, the verdict is now in. He's accused of the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history. CNN's Susan Lisovicz standing by in New York with the story -- Susan.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the verdict came on the eighth day of deliberations: guilty on all nine counts, a huge win for the government, following the large largest accounting fraud in the nation's history. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISOVICZ (voice-over): In the end, the jury just didn't buy it, that former WorldCom CEO Bernie Ebbers didn't know what was going on at the company, and the outcome couldn't have been worse for Ebbers. He was found guilty of conspiracy, securities fraud and seven counts of making false filings with the SEC.

During the six-week long trial, Ebbers took the stand in his own defense, the strategy, to portray him as a country boy, who spent most of his life in Mississippi, unsophisticated in accounting matters. The government dubbed it the "aw, shucks" defense.

The star witness, a man who was once one of Ebbers' closest confidants: former Chief Financial Officer Scott Sullivan. While prosecutors offered no hard evidence, the prosecution argued it made no sense to believe the detail-oriented Ebbers was clueless about billions of dollars in improper accounting adjustments.

The conviction of Ebbers ranks as a huge win for the government, which had taken its time prosecuting many executives linked to some of the nation's most notorious scandals that resulted in billions of dollars in losses for investors.

JAKE ZAMANSKY, SECURITIES FRAUD ATTORNEY: I think Ken Lay is in a lot of trouble. At Enron, he's saying he didn't know anything, like Bernie Ebbers. That defense is not flying in this day and age.

LISOVICZ: Ebbers' lawyer says he is devastated but plans to appeal.

REID WEINGARTEN, EBBERS' ATTORNEY: The captain of the ship is responsible for the ship. He's not criminally responsible unless he acted with criminal intent, and I didn't think Mr. Ebbers ever acted with criminal intent and still don't today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LISOVICZ: Ebbers is 63 and faces the possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison: 85 years, if sentenced to the maximum. His sentencing is scheduled for June -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Susan Lisovicz in New York. Thank you, Susan.

When we come back, a new chance to change: softer words for the terrorist group, Hezbollah, words spoken by President Bush.

Troop withdrawal, a major U.S. ally says its military will begin leaving Iraq in September.

Also ahead, brothers by blood, strangers by circumstance. Two men torn apart by war, the Holocaust. They're reunited, get this, after 61 years being apart.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

The militant Lebanese Shiite group, Hezbollah, has long been viewed by the United States government as a terror group. But could that U.S. view change? Let's go live to our senior White House correspondent, John King.

John, what's going on?

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, in the short-term, administration officials say, no, that view has and will not change. But just the fact that the question is being asked reflects the reality on the ground in Lebanon.

Mr. Bush is urging Syria's troops to get out. He wants elections, free and fair elections, in May. The administration coming to grips with the reality that Hezbollah may well be a terrorist group in the eyes of this White House, but it also is a potent force, a political force within Lebanon.

This came up in the Oval Office today. You see Mr. Bush here meeting with King Abdullah of Jordan. For the most part, the president quite upbeat about what he sees as change of the better in the Middle East.

But he also acknowledged with a bit of a softer tone today that the United States says Hezbollah is a terrorist group, blames it, of course, for that 1983 bombing that killed 241 Americans at the Marine barracks and embassy in Lebanon.

But listen closely to the president. He seems to hold out hope here that things could change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We view Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. And I would hope that Hezbollah would prove that they're not by laying down arms and not threatening peace. One of our concerns the majesty and I discussed is that Hezbollah may try to derail the peace process between the Israel and the Palestinians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: A difficult dilemma for the president, because if you look at the rallies in Lebanon staged by Hezbollah in recent days, clearly pro-Syrian, anti-U.S. rallies, it clearly is potent political force on the ground as the administration prepares for those elections in May.

Key to the president's Mideast effort to promote democracy but also a challenge. How will he deal with a group he says is a terrorist group if it proves itself to also be a potent political force?

Here at the White House, they are clearly hoping that, while they understand Hezbollah has political power, they are clearing hoping that other groups get the upper hand in those May elections.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: If you have free and fair elections, I think experience shows that people tend to choose leaders who are committed to improving their quality of life, not terrorists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The difficult question here for the administration, Wolf. They essentially are deferring much comment about Hezbollah by treating it this way. They say first things first, the biggest challenge is getting the Syrian troops and the intelligence forces out of Lebanon. Then if they have to, like it or not, they'll deal with Hezbollah once you have those elections in May.

BLITZER: CNN's John King reporting from the White House. Thank you, John, very much.

And the Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, says his nation will start pulling its 3,000 troops out of Iraq in September. The comments came during an interview with state television in Italy.

Berlusconi's spokesman says discussions are under way with the United States and Iraq about reducing the Italian presence. The White House today praised Italy's contribution, but that deployment has been unpopular back home in Italy.

Senior U.S. military officials predict there will be no need to send more U.S. troops to replace the departing Italian troops.

When we come back, speaking out. A witness to the violence in Darfur says the Sudanese government is to blame. Our Brian Todd investigates the allegations. That's coming up.

Also, brothers separated during the tragedy, now reunited. How these two Holocaust survivors found one another suddenly, without warning, after 61 years being apart.

And, later, the always out spoken political humorist, Bill Maher, he joins me live to discuss his views on the news and the world and more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: From our studios in Washington, once again, Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Fresh accusations of violence and destruction backed by the Sudanese government. Our Brian Todd investigates. We'll get to that shortly.

First, though, let's get a quick check of some other stories now in the news. Police in Florida say they're looking for a man they're calling a person of interest in the case of a missing 9-year-old girl. Jessica Lunsford disappeared late last month. Police say they believe the man may have come into contact with the girl before she disappeared, but they say the man is not considered a suspect and no arrests are imminent.

Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has issued a new call for Congress to move quickly to address Social Security's financial problems. Speaking at a Senate committee hearing earlier today, Greenspan warned that doing nothing would lead to massive budget deficits and cause the U.S. economy to stagnate or worse.

In the Middle East, new signs that Syria is reducing its presence in Lebanon. The Syrian intelligence service started clearing out its headquarters in Beirut and other areas earlier today. Syria has already been moving its troops from northern and central Lebanon to positions closer to the Lebanese-Syrian border. The United States and other governments in the region and around the world are demanding that Syria withdraw all its forces from Lebanon.

The Commonwealth of Virginia is moving ahead with an action plan to counter a possible, repeat, possible, anthrax situation unfolding right now.

Joining us now on the phone from the capital, Richmond, George Foresman. He's assistant to Virginia's governor for commonwealth preparedness.

George, thanks very much for joining us.

How concerned should people in Virginia and the D.C. area be about another anthrax attack?

GEORGE FORESMAN, VIRGINIA'S ASSISTANT TO THE GOVERNOR FOR COMMONWEALTH PREPAREDNESS: Well, Wolf, I don't think that people ought to be overly concerned.

We have got a great partnership between local, state and federal partners right now. We are in the process of doing some very detailed testing and are waiting from our federal partners the results of those tests. But the bottom line is, unfortunately, we have been through this on numerous objections in the national capital region. We have got a good game plan in case. And we're simply in the process of executing that.

And pending some additional scientific testing, people need to go about doing what they normally do.

BLITZER: Well, what is Virginia, what is the government in Virginia, the state government, doing right now in an abundance of caution to protect people?

FORESMAN: Well, Wolf, in the post-9/11 environment, and we always seek to take the most aggressive posture when it comes to protecting the health and safety of our citizens, we have moved to the appropriate resources in terms of people and pharmaceuticals into the national capital region, so that, if the tests were to come back in, in a positive fashion, that we would be prepared to provide whatever medical support to those impacted individuals that they need.

But the bottom line is, it's a prudent step that we would take any time that we had this type of scenario. And there have been a number of occasions where we have moved the resources and the tests have come back negative. But the right thing to do is to be prepared.

BLITZER: When will we know definitively if the final tests are positive or negative?

FORESMAN: Well, Wolf, I think we have got about another 24- to 36-hour cycle to go through. The federal agencies are working very aggressively as we speak right now to conduct the tests on the materials and they continue to provide periodic updates to us.

But I think that, before we can blow the all-clear signal, we just need to have about another 24 hours of testing under our belt.

BLITZER: George Foresman in Richmond, Virginia, thank you very much for updating our viewers. We'll watch this story.

FORESMAN: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: In other news we're following, the United Nations says 180,000 people have died in Sudan's Darfur region over the past 19 months. Sudan's foreign minister today argued with that claim.

But a former U.S. Marine who recently returned from Darfur says he found ample evidence of suffering, much of it at the hands of Sudanese government troops. The images in the piece we're about to show you may be disturbing to some viewers.

CNN's Brian Todd has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Captain Brian Steidle says, everywhere he went in Sudan, a government official was with him. Apparently, that didn't matter much when Steidle witnessed villages in the Darfur region being attacked.

CAPT. BRIAN STEIDLE, FORMER U.S. MARINE: Anything that moved, they targeted. It didn't matter if it was women, if it was children, if it was men.

TODD: The former U.S. Marine spent about six months in Darfur as an unarmed military observer, going from village to village with African Union troops. He officially worked for the African Union, but as an employee of a private contractor supported by the State Department.

Steidle has just returned with pictures of dead black tribesmen, villages being burned, a 1-year-old girl named Mihad (ph), who Steidle claims was wounded while fleeing with her mother, all this, Steidle says, the work of the notorious Janjaweed militia and, he says, Sudanese government troops.

STEIDLE: The Sudanese forces were the same as the Janjaweed. They would burn the villages. I've captured a number people, both on film and seeing them myself, burning the villages, looting the shops.

TODD: To back his claim, Steidle shows pictures he says are Sudanese forces hovering over one burning village, bulldozing another. And he offers a grotesque prop, a crude nail with a fin carved at the back.

STEIDLE: Fired out of the rockets of the gunship. Each gunship carries carried four rocket pods, each rocket pod about 20 rockets, and each rocket several hundred of these. And these come out like a shotgun. And it's used to maim or kill people.

TODD: In a little over two years, the U.S. government says, between 80,000 or 320,000 people have died in Darfur. Some two million have been displaced. Human rights groups have repeatedly blamed the Janjaweed and the Sudanese government for these attacks.

(on camera): In Khartoum, at the U.N. and here at their embassy in Washington, Sudanese government officials have always denied supporting the Janjaweed militia and have vehemently denied ordering or carrying out attacks in Darfur themselves. This time, they're holding that line, even under added pressure.

(voice-over): We spoke to the top Sudanese diplomat in Washington and showed him Steidle's pictures.

KHIDIR H. AHMED, SUDANESE HEAD OF MISSION: These pictures could be from anywhere in the world, yes.

TODD: Khidir Ahmed casts doubt on Steidle's credibility and his claim that soldiers committing the atrocities got their orders from Khartoum.

AHMED: This is a deliberate way to incriminate the government in Khartoum of these atrocities. So, frankly, I think it's very regrettable that he would have any kind of coverage here.

TODD: Mr. Ahmed challenges Steidle to report to the African Union and the United Nations. Steidle tells us his report is written, the African Union has it, and Mr. Ahmed is free to see it.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And dozens of world leaders gathered in Jerusalem today for the opening of a new museum. The Holocaust History Museum tells the story of Nazi atrocities during World War II. Six million Jews died and survivors were separated.

CNN's John Vause now has the dramatic story of two brothers who have been reunited, but only after decades apart.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Brothers and almost total strangers, holding hands now when they walk, refusing to let go, not again. The last time Ervin and Avraham Paskesz were together was 61 years ago in Budapest in 1944. Abraham is the oldest. He was 6 at the time, the memories vague and painful. Ervin was only 4.

AVRAHAM PASKESZ, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR (through translator): Our mother went out looking for food. She closed the door. And then we were left alone. I don't know how long she was gone, but it seems somebody heard us crying.

ERVIN PASKESZ, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR (through translator): I don't remember my parents. I don't remember anything from my childhood. I don't remember him at all.

VAUSE: Germany's defeat was less than a year away, but the Nazis were still killing Hungarian Jews and the boys' mother never came back. Their father was killed. They don't know how. Ervin was sent to an orphanage in Hungary, Avraham to a camp in Germany.

A. PASKESZ (through translator): He was blonde and beautiful. I was ordinary. So, it was easier for him to be adopted.

VAUSE: Avraham eventually made his way to Israel when he was 9, growing up on a kibbutz. Ervin was adopted by a non-Jewish family and stayed in Hungary. A dying grandmother gave him six precious family photos, uncles and aunts, their mother with Avraham, faces he had forgotten. But when the two met for the first time, they knew they were brothers.

Avraham says he recognized his brother's smile, the same as his mother. But, still, it was awkward, nothing in common, not even language. Avraham had forced himself to forget Hungarian. Ervin doesn't speak Hebrew.

E. PASKESZ (through translator): He speaks a little bit of broken Hungarian. We are talking to each other slowly, but unsurely.

VAUSE: They found each other through sheer luck. In old age, both decided to apply for Holocaust compensation. A researcher recognized their unusual last name. They will spend the next few days together, but then Ervin will return to Hungary. Avraham will stay in Israel. Both live on small pensions. There will be only letters and phone calls.

For now, though, they are still holding hands. After 61 years, it will be hard to let go.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Very moving story, indeed. Thank you, John Vause, for that. When we come back, he's controversial and comical and not afraid to tackle any -- repeat, any -- political subject, or other subjects, for that matter. I'll speak live with Bill Maher about the Bush administration, same-sex marriage, baseball, whatever comes up. He is standing by. There he is. He'll join us live right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: He is often controversial, but always funny, ready to take on everything from politics to gay marriage, lots more. Bill Maher is the host of "Real Time" on HBO, which is owned by our parent company, Time Warner.

Bill Maher joining us now live from Los Angeles.

When I was on your show, did you have to say that CNN is owned by our parent company, Time Warner?

BILL MAHER, HOST, "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER": No. But, you know, when you come down to it, aren't we all owned by Time Warner?

BLITZER: Well, a lot of us are.

MAHER: In some way?

BLITZER: A lot of us are owned by Time Warner.

How does Bill Maher prepare for one of your hour-long live programs? How do you get ready for that?

MAHER: It takes me all week, actually. When I did a once-a-day show, which looks like it would be more work, because we're on all the time, I didn't have to work as hard, because, when you do an everyday show, you just kind of throw it up against the wall every day and see what sticks. Everybody does that who does an everyday show.

But when you have got a once-a-week show, you have got to make it good.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: I don't know what I got myself into.

BLITZER: And, on HBO, there are no commercial breaks.

MAHER: Right.

BLITZER: So when we're talking about a one-hour show, we're talking about a real one-hour show.

MAHER: Yes. And I also have on a caliber guest that's a lot more, let's say, challenging to talk to. I could fake my way through a conversation with Pauly Shore and Carrot Top, as I do on a nightly basis. But, on this show, we have got people like you on. We have got people like Wesley Clark on. We have got people who really know their stuff. And I have got to be up on mine. BLITZER: Are you trying to be serious for the most part on "Real Time" or are you trying to be funny?

MAHER: My points are always serious, but because I'm often criticizing people who are themselves ridiculous, or their actions are, very often, funny is the end of it.

But I never say anything that I don't mean. I would never go off on a direction with a premise just to get a laugh. It has to be -- I like humor that comes out of real points, real passion and real conversation. I sound like I'm doing a promo. Real points, real passion, and real conversation, Fridays at 11:00.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: It really helps you to have a live audience inside, so that you get that feedback right away.

MAHER: Well, I'm a comedian and always have been. And you cannot take an audience away from a comedian. So, this coming up show we're doing on Friday, we're going to try something, because I have often felt that it's unfair that the conservatives come into our studio here in Southern California, a pretty blue city in a pretty blue state, and they get kind of a hostile response to what they say.

So, this week, we have made a concerted effort to have at least half the audience be conservative.

BLITZER: So, what do you mean? You handpick, you interview potential members of the audience?

MAHER: I personally was not out on Venice Boulevard, Wolf, but, yes, I have minions who have done that for me. And they have corralled at least -- I think we have a 300-seat audience. So, at least half the people -- and it's not easy.

A lot of them said, no, we don't want to come to your show.

BLITZER: Because...

MAHER: And I said, that's not fair, because, first of all, I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. I have a lot of positions that are conservative. And I've also been supportive of President Bush now that I think Iraq is turning around.

I'm one of those liberals who said, you know what? You can't work backwards from, I hate Bush, from everything he does, says and smirks, to, here is another bad thing he did. I said, you know what? This is turning out OK in Iraq. He had a bigger and better idea than the most of us. And you have to give up credit for that.

BLITZER: But do you think he gets the credit for that or he just got lucky? MAHER: I don't think it -- well, it is partly lucky, because he knew just little enough to imagine a different kind of world. He is a big thinker, Wolf.

You know, with this guy, we thought he was not that bright. But he thinks 100 years ahead, this, Social Security. Bush is so far ahead, I can't even see him. He's just like a little speck on the horizon. But you know what? I'm kidding, but, on the other hand, this plan with the Middle East, I do think it is taking root. I do think that we may have reached the tipping point and there's no turning back.

And this is the guy who nobody else was looking to do this. Not one other person in America was saying, you know what? After 9/11, we have got to go into Iraq. It's just that he lied to get us there. If he could have just been real about it and said, this is why we're doing it, instead of trying to scare us that Saddam Hussein had a death ray and all that stuff.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: But you know what? Maybe every war is like that. Maybe you always have to lie to people to get them to go to war.

BLITZER: All right, that's a strong word, but we'll pick it up. We'll pick up that concept, the thought of lying.

But we're going to take a quick break. Much more with Bill Maher. We'll think -- also take a closer look at some of the major domestic issues on the agenda. What does he think about that California ruling on same-sex marriage? And what about the hearings this week here in Washington on baseball's steroids?

Much more with Bill Maher after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We're continuing our conversation with Bill Maher. He's the host of "Real Time" on HBO.

If the head of the CIA tells the president of the United States that it's a slam dunk, they have weapons of mass destruction, you can go to the bank on it, does that mean the president is lying if he says they have weapons of mass destruction?

MAHER: Well, you know, that's a complicated question we could spend an hour talking about. That certainly is not the only misleading point that George Bush foisted upon the American public.

I know what you're saying. It was a murky issue and that he got some bad intelligence. But, also, it's the intelligence that they demanded. A lot of the intelligence they were getting was because people understood that there was only one piece of paper that George Bush and his people wanted to see come across their desk. There was only one acceptable answer. We've seen a lot of that, too. So, did they mislead us? Yes. I think a better case, if you want to defend them on that matter, is, you could say FDR misled us into World War II. And certainly Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin misled us into Vietnam, that when powerful men get inside a room and decide we have to go to war, they do it in two parts. We have to go to war. Now, what are we going to tell people to get them to follow us?

BLITZER: All right, let's switch gears to that California ruling on same-sex marriage. You've been outspoken on this issue. Do you think it should be the law of the land that gays should be able to get married as they want?

MAHER: Of course. Why shouldn't they? It's so ridiculous.

It's so ridiculous to me that this is at the heart of the values and morals debate. It goes back to the theme I keep trying to sound here on this show, which is that the people who are talking about morals and values don't even know what morals and values are. They confuse and conflate morals and values with rituals and superstitions and traditions.

Believing that the Earth is 5,000 years old and was created in six days, that's not a moral or a value. And believing that gay people shouldn't be married, what's moral about that? It's probably immoral.

BLITZER: I promised I would ask you about the hearings coming up Thursday here in Washington on baseball and steroids. I know you're interested in this subject.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: Yes.

Well, you know, I feel bad for any athlete who wants to compete without using drugs, because it's pretty hard to nowadays. But, then again, this has been going on for a long time. I mean, this is not the first generation of athletes to use drugs. Willie Mays, remember? Who wrote that book that said Willie was on the juice? They used amphetamines, you know, speed.

And then, in the '80s, all these players were on cocaine. Who was the guy who said he put it in his front pocket, because the cocaine would get in his way when he slid on his rear end? So, this isn't a new thing. Also, for President Bush to have made an issue out of it a year ago in his State of the Union and say, this is not America, excuse me, but steroids is America, because America has become a place where it's not about how you play the game. It's whether you win or lose.

And, also, I would say, it's hardly the most dangerous drug for kids. If they're worried about kids looking at Canseco and saying, oh, now I want to do steroids, yes, there will be some of that. But baseball is all about selling beer and cars. And what kills most kids is drunk driving. BLITZER: You're going to be followed tomorrow on this show by Jose Canseco. I'm not making that up. He is going to be among my guests right here tomorrow.

MAHER: I interviewed him a couple weeks ago, yes. He's OK.

BLITZER: All right, well, we'll watch. We'll see what he has to say.

I'm going to be watching "Real Time" Friday night, 11:00 p.m. Eastern, on our sister network, HBO, because I want to watch the audience. I want to see how those liberals and those conservatives interact.

MAHER: Yes.

BLITZER: I hope you have a real live camera watching them.

MAHER: It will be interesting. We might have chicken fights up there in the crowd.

BLITZER: It could get ugly up there.

Bill Maher, thanks for joining us.

MAHER: All right, thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: That's it for me.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" in Washington starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired March 15, 2005 - 17:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, HOST: Happening now: a developing story. It's a potential killer that brought death to five Americans in the fall of 2001. Has anthrax now returned, this time to the Pentagon? Preliminary tests are in. Those preliminary tests show the result is positive.
Stand by for hard news on WOLF BLITZER REPORTS.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (voice-over): Arms for sale in America.

DAVID KELLEY, U.S. ATTORNEY: Various military weapons, including rocket-propelled grenade launchers, which are known as RPGs, shoulder- fired surface to air missiles, known as SAMs.

BLITZER: Was the alleged arsenal meant for terrorists? I'll ask New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly.

Hezbollah off the hook?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We view Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.

BLITZER (voice-over): But could President Bush let the Lebanese militants into the political mainstream?

Bound and shackled. The alleged courthouse killer is back before a judge.

FRANK COX, MAGISTRATE JUDGE: Anything else you wish to say?

BRIAN NICHOLS, COURTHOUSE SHOOTING SUSPECT: Not at this time.

BLITZER: From cable news to gay marriage to the war on Iraq, we'll get some face time with "Real Time"'s Bill Maher.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is WOLF BLITZER REPORTS for Tuesday, March 15, 2005.

BLITZER: Thanks for joining us.

A new anthrax scare right here in the nation's capital. And within the past hour, new test results, they're raising fears of a possible repeat of the 2001 anthrax attack that which killed five people and sickened 22 others.

Our homeland security correspondent, Jeanne Meserve, standing by with the latest in a "CNN Security Watch" report. What is the latest, Jeanne?

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, two sources tell CNN that one test on samples from the Pentagon's remote delivery facility have come back positive for anthrax.

However, further test results are expected and needed from the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases in Fort Detrick, Maryland, before definitive conclusions can be drawn.

Meanwhile, the Commonwealth of Virginia is moving pharmaceuticals and personnel to Northern Virginia as a precautionary measure.

It was, as you mentioned, three years ago that anthrax attacks killed two D.C. postal workers. Today we saw some of the lessons learned.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here we go again.

MESERVE (voice-over): Three-day doses of the antibiotic Cipro handed out protectively to about 250 D.C. postal workers, whose facility processes mail that ends up at the Pentagon's remote delivery facility.

PAUL HARRINGTON, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE: We aren't sure. But it's likely that we did, so we're going to take every possible precaution. We're going to err on the side of safety.

MESERVE: The postal facility in Northeast D.C. was closed Monday night and is undergoing testing for contamination. And city officials are taking additional steps.

DR. GREGG PANE, D.C. HEALTH DEPARTMENT: We have also mobilized our hospital network and our epidemiologic surveillance. So they're on the lookout and alert for any cases that could be related to anthrax.

MESERVE: Meanwhile, a flurry of activity throughout the D.C. hazardous materials teams. First, a call from the Internal Revenue Service about a suspicious letter leaking a black substance.

ALAN ETTER, D.C. DEPARTMENT OF FIRE AND EMS: HAZMAT tested the material and came up with a high probability of the kind of material that you would use in rat poison.

MESERVE: There was another suspicious letter at CNN's Washington bureau. Testing ruled out a hazard.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE: Mail deliveries to the federal government have been suspended. According to officials for the U.S. Postal Service, they hope to restore normal service shortly. But that all depends on the pending results and definitive results from Fort Detrick -- Wolf.

BLITZER: I will wait anxiously for those results. Jeanne Meserve, reporting for us. Thank you, Jeanne, very much.

Let's check in with our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre. Jamie, what are they saying where you are?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, if it turns out that it is, in fact, anthrax that was in that -- an air filter at a Pentagon mail sorting machine, it will show that the system worked, sort of.

It does appear that the mail has been irradiated and that any anthrax would have been killed. In fact, they have -- more than 60 tests at this remote delivery facility right next to the Pentagon have failed to find any evidence of anthrax.

But Pentagon officials do admit there was a small breakdown in the system. Mail that was supposed to be kept in an air-tight container until those tests came back clearing it for its delivery, some of it actually began to move through the system to distribution points. It had to be recovered and rechecked.

But again, Pentagon officials say so far, they found no evidence of anthrax contamination, nor have any of the people who work at that facility exhibited any signs of exposure to anthrax -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Jamie, how unusual -- you've been at the Pentagon all these years, since the first anthrax attacks, those letter attacks three-and-a-half years or so ago. How unusual is this scare right now?

MCINTYRE: Well, it's very unusual. In fact, one of the reasons apparently some of the mail began to move through the systems is that these tests routinely come back negative, clearing the way for the delivery of the mail at the Pentagon. So this took them a little bit by surprise.

But of course, the whole point of this remote facility -- you saw that big facility in the picture outside the Pentagon. The whole point of that is to make sure that everything that goes into the Pentagon is fully screened before it ever makes it into the building, which is, of course, the headquarters of the U.S. military.

BLITZER: Jamie McIntyre over at the Pentagon. Jamie, thanks very much.

Later this hour, I'll speak live with a senior homeland security official in Virginia on how that state is handling this situation. Much more on this story coming up later this hour.

Let's move on now to other stories we're following.

Federal authorities today announced the arrests of 18 people charged with attempted arms smuggling. And not just any arms: the alleged plot involved weapons designed to take out tanks and shoot down aircraft.

Let's go live to New York. CNN's Mary Snow is standing by -- Mary.

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, these weapons were said to be traced to the Russian military. The U.S. attorney here in the southern district of Manhattan, David Kelley, earlier today announced that 18 arrests had been made in three different cities. The majority of those arrests were here in New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW (voice-over): It was here, in a modest Manhattan hotel, where the FBI arrested the alleged ringleaders and says it foiled a plot to import Russia-style military weapons into the United States.

Rocket-propelled grenade launchers and shoulder-fired surface-to- air missiles were on the list of weapons that the defendants allegedly talked about with a paid FBI informant.

According to a criminal complaint, the would-be sellers claimed ties to ex-KGB officials and spoke in code, referring to RPGs as "fliers" and machine guns as "puppies."

KELLEY: It appears that the defendants were planning to obtain that weaponry through contacts they had developed in eastern European military circles. We are now working with our counterparts overseas to secure the weapons and to bring to justice conspirators who may be abroad.

SNOW: The arrests culminated a year-long investigation, using the informant posing as an arms broker for unspecified terrorists. The suspects were here illegally, mainly from Armenia, Russia and the Republic of Georgia. Prosecutors say the alleged mastermind, 26-year- old Artur Solomonyan, once hinted at something bigger.

KELLEY: The defendant, Solomonyan, suggested to the confidential informant that he could obtain enriched uranium for possible use by terrorists in the subway system. There was never, however, any such uranium.

SNOW: And the uranium was never discussed again in 15,000 wiretapped phone calls, nor did any of the big weapons make it into the U.S. The charges say only eight machine guns were delivered to New York, Los Angeles and Ft. Lauderdale, but law enforcement officials believe they cracked a potential overseas weapons pipeline.

ANDY ARENA, FBI: These defendants may not have been terrorists themselves, but they've shown a transparent willingness to do anything with anybody, so long as it generates income for their organization.

SNOW: The FBI says the complaint reads like a Hollywood script with secret meetings at New York hotels and restaurants, even inside the sauna and hot tub of a Brooklyn spa. The story ends with the informant promising to deliver green cards to ringleaders so they can travel to pick up weapons.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: Ten of the 18 suspects were arrested here in New York and had their first court appearance here this afternoon. One of the 10 was released on $250,000 bond, which he did not have. He's being detained, pending that bond.

And the attorney for the alleged ringleader, Louis Basouli (ph), is the attorney, saying this is his client's first arrest and that he plans on aggressively putting forth a defense on this, saying we're already starting the process -- Wolf.

BLITZER: CNN's Mary Snow, reporting from New York. Mary, thank you very much.

Terrorists could do serious damage with these types of weapons. But did this alleged plot have any terror ties? Joining us now live from New York, the city's police commissioner, Ray Kelly.

Commissioner, thanks very much for joining us.

RAY KELLY, NEW YORK CITY POLICE COMMISSIONER: You're welcome, Wolf.

BLITZER: Is there any evidence these defendants, these suspects had direct ties to al Qaeda or any other terrorist group?

KELLY: No, there's no evidence at this time, but clearly, they didn't care. They were reckless. They certainly were willing to have these weapons go to -- go to terrorists, but it doesn't appear that at this time that they had any direct connection.

BLITZER: Does it look like it was an ideological motivation on the part of these suspects or a financial motivation?

KELLY: No, this is the age-old story of people doing anything for money. They were interested in money. There was no ideology here that investigators found.

BLITZER: Is it fair to call this a sting operation?

KELLY: No. I don't think this was a sting operation. Investigators believed that they were very earnest in their attempts to get weapons from Eastern Europe. They made, as the record shows, some 15,000 calls. And they were trying to get delivery. No question about that, in the investigators' minds.

BLITZER: Can you share with our viewers, without compromising your intelligence, your operation, how you first got wind of this opportunity that these suspects had to sell these kinds of weapons to individuals here in the United States?

KELLY: Well, it was an initial contact, I think, to an FBI confidential informant, who contacted the FBI. And he stated that he was contacted by the two principles in this case. And it kind of took off from there.

So, it wasn't any great -- great mystery here. These were individuals that were primarily interested in making a big buck. They did go overseas. They did take pictures of these weapons, and there's no indication that they, themselves were the victims of a sting.

BLITZER: Do you believe you've apprehended all of the conspirators in this operation? Or are there others that may still be at large?

KELLY: Well, I think all these investigations always have the possibility of going further, but I believe the investigators think they've gotten the core group here. Eighteen people were arrested in this case, so that's a pretty significant number of folks.

BLITZER: What was the decision like to go ahead and end it right now? Because sometimes, as you well know, you keep this operation going if there's no real imminent threat to anyone in the United States, any citizens, only to see if there are maybe some other bigger fish out there that are behind the scenes.

KELLY: Well, this was a decision by the FBI to end this case. And I think it was really triggered by the fact that the two primary individuals wanted to go overseas. In fact, they were getting green cards. That was part of the deal.

They were here illegally, so they weren't able to leave the country and get back. They wanted the green cards. But of course, if they left the country, they may never have come back. So I think it was a prudent decision on behalf of the FBI to make the arrest now.

BLITZER: Commissioner Kelly, people in New York City hear the words "enriched uranium" and "New York subways," those words were uttered by the U.S. attorney, David Kelley earlier, as you just saw. You hear those words, you're bound to get nervous. How nervous should residents of New York City be right now?

KELLY: Well, there's no indication in this case that they had any possibility of getting uranium. That was sort of a puffing statement made by one individual only once, to kind of entice people into the deal.

But clearly, it shows their willingness to deal with terrorists, because who else would be using uranium in the subway system? So, it's disconcerting, of course, to hear that. But there's no indication that there was any basis for that statement.

BLITZER: All right. Commissioner Ray Kelly of New York, as usual, thanks very much, Commissioner.

KELLY: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: And to our viewers, pleas stay tuned to CNN day and night for the most reliable news about your security. When we come back, facing a judge for the first time since his alleged shooting outrage, Brian Nichols enters an Atlanta court in shackles, as hundreds gather to remember the three people he allegedly killed.

Guilty on all counts, the man who once headed a multibillion dollar empire now faces prison.

Getting real with the always outspoken Bill Maher. We'll talk politics, baseball, lots more. Bill Maher, he's here. He'll join us live this hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Brian Nichols appeared before a judge today, but under very different circumstances than last week when he allegedly grabbed a deputy's gun and went on a killing spree inside an Atlanta courthouse.

CNN's Kimberly Osias is joining us now live. She's in downtown Atlanta with the latest -- Kimberly.

KIMBERLY OSIAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Wolf.

Well, Brian Nichols didn't face any new charges here at the Fulton County jail today. Instead, he remains on the original ones, the same ones he faced on that fateful Friday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

OSIAS (voice-over): Plenty of cameras in the packed courtroom for 33-year-old Brian Nichols, charged again with rape, aggravated sodomy and false imprisonment. Not new charges, but charges which allow prosecutors to keep Nichols behind bars, while the government establishes its other cases against him.

MICHELLE MCCUTCHEON, PROSECUTOR: We would like to give the defendant and counsel notice that the state does intend at a later date to form -- to file formal charges against the defendant for the charges of murder.

OSIAS: Presiding, a judge from a neighboring county. All the judges in Fulton County recused themselves. Magistrate Judge Frank Cox.

FRANK COX, MAGISTRATE JUDGE: Anything else you wish to say?

NICHOLS: Not at this time.

OSIAS: But his defense did.

CHRIS ADAMS, NICHOLS' ATTORNEY: This is a time of grief and mourning for the courthouse community, for all the victims. We're going to respect that. There will be plenty of time for us later to lay out our legal arguments and motions and to examine the evidence and to search for understanding in this case.

OSIAS: Nichols is suspected in four murders, three at the Fulton County Courthouse, one more in an upscale north Atlanta neighborhood of a U.S. customs and immigration officer.

After holding a young woman hostage for seven hours, he surrendered at her Gwinnett County apartment complex.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Because of who you are I give you praise.

OSIAS: Today, Atlantans came together, grieving at same spot where panicked court workers ran for their lives Friday. The courthouse memorial service honored those slain there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: The duration here of the hearing here, about 10 minutes. Prosecutors plan to formally charge Brian Nichols within the next 30 days -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Kimberly Osias, reporting in Atlanta. Kimberly, thank you.

The woman who says Nichols held her hostage and who eventually called 911 will get a reward. Georgia's governor has cleared the way for Ashley Smith to receive $10,000 that the state put up for Nichols capture.

Last night, she asked the news media to move their spotlights off of her.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEY SMITH, FORMER HOSTAGE: It's natural to focus on the conclusion of any story, but my role was really very small in the grand scheme of things. The really heroes are the judicial and law enforcement officials who gave their lives and those who risked their lives to bring this to an end. Thank you for your prayers, and may God bless you all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: An additional $50,000 in reward money was offered by other agencies. No word yet whether Smith will get that money, as well.

In the closely watched trial of former WorldCom CEO Bernie Ebbers, the verdict is now in. He's accused of the largest bankruptcy in U.S. history. CNN's Susan Lisovicz standing by in New York with the story -- Susan.

SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, the verdict came on the eighth day of deliberations: guilty on all nine counts, a huge win for the government, following the large largest accounting fraud in the nation's history. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LISOVICZ (voice-over): In the end, the jury just didn't buy it, that former WorldCom CEO Bernie Ebbers didn't know what was going on at the company, and the outcome couldn't have been worse for Ebbers. He was found guilty of conspiracy, securities fraud and seven counts of making false filings with the SEC.

During the six-week long trial, Ebbers took the stand in his own defense, the strategy, to portray him as a country boy, who spent most of his life in Mississippi, unsophisticated in accounting matters. The government dubbed it the "aw, shucks" defense.

The star witness, a man who was once one of Ebbers' closest confidants: former Chief Financial Officer Scott Sullivan. While prosecutors offered no hard evidence, the prosecution argued it made no sense to believe the detail-oriented Ebbers was clueless about billions of dollars in improper accounting adjustments.

The conviction of Ebbers ranks as a huge win for the government, which had taken its time prosecuting many executives linked to some of the nation's most notorious scandals that resulted in billions of dollars in losses for investors.

JAKE ZAMANSKY, SECURITIES FRAUD ATTORNEY: I think Ken Lay is in a lot of trouble. At Enron, he's saying he didn't know anything, like Bernie Ebbers. That defense is not flying in this day and age.

LISOVICZ: Ebbers' lawyer says he is devastated but plans to appeal.

REID WEINGARTEN, EBBERS' ATTORNEY: The captain of the ship is responsible for the ship. He's not criminally responsible unless he acted with criminal intent, and I didn't think Mr. Ebbers ever acted with criminal intent and still don't today.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LISOVICZ: Ebbers is 63 and faces the possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison: 85 years, if sentenced to the maximum. His sentencing is scheduled for June -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Susan Lisovicz in New York. Thank you, Susan.

When we come back, a new chance to change: softer words for the terrorist group, Hezbollah, words spoken by President Bush.

Troop withdrawal, a major U.S. ally says its military will begin leaving Iraq in September.

Also ahead, brothers by blood, strangers by circumstance. Two men torn apart by war, the Holocaust. They're reunited, get this, after 61 years being apart.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back.

The militant Lebanese Shiite group, Hezbollah, has long been viewed by the United States government as a terror group. But could that U.S. view change? Let's go live to our senior White House correspondent, John King.

John, what's going on?

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, in the short-term, administration officials say, no, that view has and will not change. But just the fact that the question is being asked reflects the reality on the ground in Lebanon.

Mr. Bush is urging Syria's troops to get out. He wants elections, free and fair elections, in May. The administration coming to grips with the reality that Hezbollah may well be a terrorist group in the eyes of this White House, but it also is a potent force, a political force within Lebanon.

This came up in the Oval Office today. You see Mr. Bush here meeting with King Abdullah of Jordan. For the most part, the president quite upbeat about what he sees as change of the better in the Middle East.

But he also acknowledged with a bit of a softer tone today that the United States says Hezbollah is a terrorist group, blames it, of course, for that 1983 bombing that killed 241 Americans at the Marine barracks and embassy in Lebanon.

But listen closely to the president. He seems to hold out hope here that things could change.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: We view Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. And I would hope that Hezbollah would prove that they're not by laying down arms and not threatening peace. One of our concerns the majesty and I discussed is that Hezbollah may try to derail the peace process between the Israel and the Palestinians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: A difficult dilemma for the president, because if you look at the rallies in Lebanon staged by Hezbollah in recent days, clearly pro-Syrian, anti-U.S. rallies, it clearly is potent political force on the ground as the administration prepares for those elections in May.

Key to the president's Mideast effort to promote democracy but also a challenge. How will he deal with a group he says is a terrorist group if it proves itself to also be a potent political force?

Here at the White House, they are clearly hoping that, while they understand Hezbollah has political power, they are clearing hoping that other groups get the upper hand in those May elections.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: If you have free and fair elections, I think experience shows that people tend to choose leaders who are committed to improving their quality of life, not terrorists.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: The difficult question here for the administration, Wolf. They essentially are deferring much comment about Hezbollah by treating it this way. They say first things first, the biggest challenge is getting the Syrian troops and the intelligence forces out of Lebanon. Then if they have to, like it or not, they'll deal with Hezbollah once you have those elections in May.

BLITZER: CNN's John King reporting from the White House. Thank you, John, very much.

And the Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, says his nation will start pulling its 3,000 troops out of Iraq in September. The comments came during an interview with state television in Italy.

Berlusconi's spokesman says discussions are under way with the United States and Iraq about reducing the Italian presence. The White House today praised Italy's contribution, but that deployment has been unpopular back home in Italy.

Senior U.S. military officials predict there will be no need to send more U.S. troops to replace the departing Italian troops.

When we come back, speaking out. A witness to the violence in Darfur says the Sudanese government is to blame. Our Brian Todd investigates the allegations. That's coming up.

Also, brothers separated during the tragedy, now reunited. How these two Holocaust survivors found one another suddenly, without warning, after 61 years being apart.

And, later, the always out spoken political humorist, Bill Maher, he joins me live to discuss his views on the news and the world and more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: From our studios in Washington, once again, Wolf Blitzer.

BLITZER: Welcome back.

Fresh accusations of violence and destruction backed by the Sudanese government. Our Brian Todd investigates. We'll get to that shortly.

First, though, let's get a quick check of some other stories now in the news. Police in Florida say they're looking for a man they're calling a person of interest in the case of a missing 9-year-old girl. Jessica Lunsford disappeared late last month. Police say they believe the man may have come into contact with the girl before she disappeared, but they say the man is not considered a suspect and no arrests are imminent.

Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan has issued a new call for Congress to move quickly to address Social Security's financial problems. Speaking at a Senate committee hearing earlier today, Greenspan warned that doing nothing would lead to massive budget deficits and cause the U.S. economy to stagnate or worse.

In the Middle East, new signs that Syria is reducing its presence in Lebanon. The Syrian intelligence service started clearing out its headquarters in Beirut and other areas earlier today. Syria has already been moving its troops from northern and central Lebanon to positions closer to the Lebanese-Syrian border. The United States and other governments in the region and around the world are demanding that Syria withdraw all its forces from Lebanon.

The Commonwealth of Virginia is moving ahead with an action plan to counter a possible, repeat, possible, anthrax situation unfolding right now.

Joining us now on the phone from the capital, Richmond, George Foresman. He's assistant to Virginia's governor for commonwealth preparedness.

George, thanks very much for joining us.

How concerned should people in Virginia and the D.C. area be about another anthrax attack?

GEORGE FORESMAN, VIRGINIA'S ASSISTANT TO THE GOVERNOR FOR COMMONWEALTH PREPAREDNESS: Well, Wolf, I don't think that people ought to be overly concerned.

We have got a great partnership between local, state and federal partners right now. We are in the process of doing some very detailed testing and are waiting from our federal partners the results of those tests. But the bottom line is, unfortunately, we have been through this on numerous objections in the national capital region. We have got a good game plan in case. And we're simply in the process of executing that.

And pending some additional scientific testing, people need to go about doing what they normally do.

BLITZER: Well, what is Virginia, what is the government in Virginia, the state government, doing right now in an abundance of caution to protect people?

FORESMAN: Well, Wolf, in the post-9/11 environment, and we always seek to take the most aggressive posture when it comes to protecting the health and safety of our citizens, we have moved to the appropriate resources in terms of people and pharmaceuticals into the national capital region, so that, if the tests were to come back in, in a positive fashion, that we would be prepared to provide whatever medical support to those impacted individuals that they need.

But the bottom line is, it's a prudent step that we would take any time that we had this type of scenario. And there have been a number of occasions where we have moved the resources and the tests have come back negative. But the right thing to do is to be prepared.

BLITZER: When will we know definitively if the final tests are positive or negative?

FORESMAN: Well, Wolf, I think we have got about another 24- to 36-hour cycle to go through. The federal agencies are working very aggressively as we speak right now to conduct the tests on the materials and they continue to provide periodic updates to us.

But I think that, before we can blow the all-clear signal, we just need to have about another 24 hours of testing under our belt.

BLITZER: George Foresman in Richmond, Virginia, thank you very much for updating our viewers. We'll watch this story.

FORESMAN: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: In other news we're following, the United Nations says 180,000 people have died in Sudan's Darfur region over the past 19 months. Sudan's foreign minister today argued with that claim.

But a former U.S. Marine who recently returned from Darfur says he found ample evidence of suffering, much of it at the hands of Sudanese government troops. The images in the piece we're about to show you may be disturbing to some viewers.

CNN's Brian Todd has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Captain Brian Steidle says, everywhere he went in Sudan, a government official was with him. Apparently, that didn't matter much when Steidle witnessed villages in the Darfur region being attacked.

CAPT. BRIAN STEIDLE, FORMER U.S. MARINE: Anything that moved, they targeted. It didn't matter if it was women, if it was children, if it was men.

TODD: The former U.S. Marine spent about six months in Darfur as an unarmed military observer, going from village to village with African Union troops. He officially worked for the African Union, but as an employee of a private contractor supported by the State Department.

Steidle has just returned with pictures of dead black tribesmen, villages being burned, a 1-year-old girl named Mihad (ph), who Steidle claims was wounded while fleeing with her mother, all this, Steidle says, the work of the notorious Janjaweed militia and, he says, Sudanese government troops.

STEIDLE: The Sudanese forces were the same as the Janjaweed. They would burn the villages. I've captured a number people, both on film and seeing them myself, burning the villages, looting the shops.

TODD: To back his claim, Steidle shows pictures he says are Sudanese forces hovering over one burning village, bulldozing another. And he offers a grotesque prop, a crude nail with a fin carved at the back.

STEIDLE: Fired out of the rockets of the gunship. Each gunship carries carried four rocket pods, each rocket pod about 20 rockets, and each rocket several hundred of these. And these come out like a shotgun. And it's used to maim or kill people.

TODD: In a little over two years, the U.S. government says, between 80,000 or 320,000 people have died in Darfur. Some two million have been displaced. Human rights groups have repeatedly blamed the Janjaweed and the Sudanese government for these attacks.

(on camera): In Khartoum, at the U.N. and here at their embassy in Washington, Sudanese government officials have always denied supporting the Janjaweed militia and have vehemently denied ordering or carrying out attacks in Darfur themselves. This time, they're holding that line, even under added pressure.

(voice-over): We spoke to the top Sudanese diplomat in Washington and showed him Steidle's pictures.

KHIDIR H. AHMED, SUDANESE HEAD OF MISSION: These pictures could be from anywhere in the world, yes.

TODD: Khidir Ahmed casts doubt on Steidle's credibility and his claim that soldiers committing the atrocities got their orders from Khartoum.

AHMED: This is a deliberate way to incriminate the government in Khartoum of these atrocities. So, frankly, I think it's very regrettable that he would have any kind of coverage here.

TODD: Mr. Ahmed challenges Steidle to report to the African Union and the United Nations. Steidle tells us his report is written, the African Union has it, and Mr. Ahmed is free to see it.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: And dozens of world leaders gathered in Jerusalem today for the opening of a new museum. The Holocaust History Museum tells the story of Nazi atrocities during World War II. Six million Jews died and survivors were separated.

CNN's John Vause now has the dramatic story of two brothers who have been reunited, but only after decades apart.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Brothers and almost total strangers, holding hands now when they walk, refusing to let go, not again. The last time Ervin and Avraham Paskesz were together was 61 years ago in Budapest in 1944. Abraham is the oldest. He was 6 at the time, the memories vague and painful. Ervin was only 4.

AVRAHAM PASKESZ, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR (through translator): Our mother went out looking for food. She closed the door. And then we were left alone. I don't know how long she was gone, but it seems somebody heard us crying.

ERVIN PASKESZ, HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR (through translator): I don't remember my parents. I don't remember anything from my childhood. I don't remember him at all.

VAUSE: Germany's defeat was less than a year away, but the Nazis were still killing Hungarian Jews and the boys' mother never came back. Their father was killed. They don't know how. Ervin was sent to an orphanage in Hungary, Avraham to a camp in Germany.

A. PASKESZ (through translator): He was blonde and beautiful. I was ordinary. So, it was easier for him to be adopted.

VAUSE: Avraham eventually made his way to Israel when he was 9, growing up on a kibbutz. Ervin was adopted by a non-Jewish family and stayed in Hungary. A dying grandmother gave him six precious family photos, uncles and aunts, their mother with Avraham, faces he had forgotten. But when the two met for the first time, they knew they were brothers.

Avraham says he recognized his brother's smile, the same as his mother. But, still, it was awkward, nothing in common, not even language. Avraham had forced himself to forget Hungarian. Ervin doesn't speak Hebrew.

E. PASKESZ (through translator): He speaks a little bit of broken Hungarian. We are talking to each other slowly, but unsurely.

VAUSE: They found each other through sheer luck. In old age, both decided to apply for Holocaust compensation. A researcher recognized their unusual last name. They will spend the next few days together, but then Ervin will return to Hungary. Avraham will stay in Israel. Both live on small pensions. There will be only letters and phone calls.

For now, though, they are still holding hands. After 61 years, it will be hard to let go.

John Vause, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER: Very moving story, indeed. Thank you, John Vause, for that. When we come back, he's controversial and comical and not afraid to tackle any -- repeat, any -- political subject, or other subjects, for that matter. I'll speak live with Bill Maher about the Bush administration, same-sex marriage, baseball, whatever comes up. He is standing by. There he is. He'll join us live right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: He is often controversial, but always funny, ready to take on everything from politics to gay marriage, lots more. Bill Maher is the host of "Real Time" on HBO, which is owned by our parent company, Time Warner.

Bill Maher joining us now live from Los Angeles.

When I was on your show, did you have to say that CNN is owned by our parent company, Time Warner?

BILL MAHER, HOST, "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER": No. But, you know, when you come down to it, aren't we all owned by Time Warner?

BLITZER: Well, a lot of us are.

MAHER: In some way?

BLITZER: A lot of us are owned by Time Warner.

How does Bill Maher prepare for one of your hour-long live programs? How do you get ready for that?

MAHER: It takes me all week, actually. When I did a once-a-day show, which looks like it would be more work, because we're on all the time, I didn't have to work as hard, because, when you do an everyday show, you just kind of throw it up against the wall every day and see what sticks. Everybody does that who does an everyday show.

But when you have got a once-a-week show, you have got to make it good.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: I don't know what I got myself into.

BLITZER: And, on HBO, there are no commercial breaks.

MAHER: Right.

BLITZER: So when we're talking about a one-hour show, we're talking about a real one-hour show.

MAHER: Yes. And I also have on a caliber guest that's a lot more, let's say, challenging to talk to. I could fake my way through a conversation with Pauly Shore and Carrot Top, as I do on a nightly basis. But, on this show, we have got people like you on. We have got people like Wesley Clark on. We have got people who really know their stuff. And I have got to be up on mine. BLITZER: Are you trying to be serious for the most part on "Real Time" or are you trying to be funny?

MAHER: My points are always serious, but because I'm often criticizing people who are themselves ridiculous, or their actions are, very often, funny is the end of it.

But I never say anything that I don't mean. I would never go off on a direction with a premise just to get a laugh. It has to be -- I like humor that comes out of real points, real passion and real conversation. I sound like I'm doing a promo. Real points, real passion, and real conversation, Fridays at 11:00.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

BLITZER: It really helps you to have a live audience inside, so that you get that feedback right away.

MAHER: Well, I'm a comedian and always have been. And you cannot take an audience away from a comedian. So, this coming up show we're doing on Friday, we're going to try something, because I have often felt that it's unfair that the conservatives come into our studio here in Southern California, a pretty blue city in a pretty blue state, and they get kind of a hostile response to what they say.

So, this week, we have made a concerted effort to have at least half the audience be conservative.

BLITZER: So, what do you mean? You handpick, you interview potential members of the audience?

MAHER: I personally was not out on Venice Boulevard, Wolf, but, yes, I have minions who have done that for me. And they have corralled at least -- I think we have a 300-seat audience. So, at least half the people -- and it's not easy.

A lot of them said, no, we don't want to come to your show.

BLITZER: Because...

MAHER: And I said, that's not fair, because, first of all, I'm not a dyed-in-the-wool liberal. I have a lot of positions that are conservative. And I've also been supportive of President Bush now that I think Iraq is turning around.

I'm one of those liberals who said, you know what? You can't work backwards from, I hate Bush, from everything he does, says and smirks, to, here is another bad thing he did. I said, you know what? This is turning out OK in Iraq. He had a bigger and better idea than the most of us. And you have to give up credit for that.

BLITZER: But do you think he gets the credit for that or he just got lucky? MAHER: I don't think it -- well, it is partly lucky, because he knew just little enough to imagine a different kind of world. He is a big thinker, Wolf.

You know, with this guy, we thought he was not that bright. But he thinks 100 years ahead, this, Social Security. Bush is so far ahead, I can't even see him. He's just like a little speck on the horizon. But you know what? I'm kidding, but, on the other hand, this plan with the Middle East, I do think it is taking root. I do think that we may have reached the tipping point and there's no turning back.

And this is the guy who nobody else was looking to do this. Not one other person in America was saying, you know what? After 9/11, we have got to go into Iraq. It's just that he lied to get us there. If he could have just been real about it and said, this is why we're doing it, instead of trying to scare us that Saddam Hussein had a death ray and all that stuff.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: But you know what? Maybe every war is like that. Maybe you always have to lie to people to get them to go to war.

BLITZER: All right, that's a strong word, but we'll pick it up. We'll pick up that concept, the thought of lying.

But we're going to take a quick break. Much more with Bill Maher. We'll think -- also take a closer look at some of the major domestic issues on the agenda. What does he think about that California ruling on same-sex marriage? And what about the hearings this week here in Washington on baseball's steroids?

Much more with Bill Maher after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. We're continuing our conversation with Bill Maher. He's the host of "Real Time" on HBO.

If the head of the CIA tells the president of the United States that it's a slam dunk, they have weapons of mass destruction, you can go to the bank on it, does that mean the president is lying if he says they have weapons of mass destruction?

MAHER: Well, you know, that's a complicated question we could spend an hour talking about. That certainly is not the only misleading point that George Bush foisted upon the American public.

I know what you're saying. It was a murky issue and that he got some bad intelligence. But, also, it's the intelligence that they demanded. A lot of the intelligence they were getting was because people understood that there was only one piece of paper that George Bush and his people wanted to see come across their desk. There was only one acceptable answer. We've seen a lot of that, too. So, did they mislead us? Yes. I think a better case, if you want to defend them on that matter, is, you could say FDR misled us into World War II. And certainly Lyndon Johnson and the Gulf of Tonkin misled us into Vietnam, that when powerful men get inside a room and decide we have to go to war, they do it in two parts. We have to go to war. Now, what are we going to tell people to get them to follow us?

BLITZER: All right, let's switch gears to that California ruling on same-sex marriage. You've been outspoken on this issue. Do you think it should be the law of the land that gays should be able to get married as they want?

MAHER: Of course. Why shouldn't they? It's so ridiculous.

It's so ridiculous to me that this is at the heart of the values and morals debate. It goes back to the theme I keep trying to sound here on this show, which is that the people who are talking about morals and values don't even know what morals and values are. They confuse and conflate morals and values with rituals and superstitions and traditions.

Believing that the Earth is 5,000 years old and was created in six days, that's not a moral or a value. And believing that gay people shouldn't be married, what's moral about that? It's probably immoral.

BLITZER: I promised I would ask you about the hearings coming up Thursday here in Washington on baseball and steroids. I know you're interested in this subject.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: Yes.

Well, you know, I feel bad for any athlete who wants to compete without using drugs, because it's pretty hard to nowadays. But, then again, this has been going on for a long time. I mean, this is not the first generation of athletes to use drugs. Willie Mays, remember? Who wrote that book that said Willie was on the juice? They used amphetamines, you know, speed.

And then, in the '80s, all these players were on cocaine. Who was the guy who said he put it in his front pocket, because the cocaine would get in his way when he slid on his rear end? So, this isn't a new thing. Also, for President Bush to have made an issue out of it a year ago in his State of the Union and say, this is not America, excuse me, but steroids is America, because America has become a place where it's not about how you play the game. It's whether you win or lose.

And, also, I would say, it's hardly the most dangerous drug for kids. If they're worried about kids looking at Canseco and saying, oh, now I want to do steroids, yes, there will be some of that. But baseball is all about selling beer and cars. And what kills most kids is drunk driving. BLITZER: You're going to be followed tomorrow on this show by Jose Canseco. I'm not making that up. He is going to be among my guests right here tomorrow.

MAHER: I interviewed him a couple weeks ago, yes. He's OK.

BLITZER: All right, well, we'll watch. We'll see what he has to say.

I'm going to be watching "Real Time" Friday night, 11:00 p.m. Eastern, on our sister network, HBO, because I want to watch the audience. I want to see how those liberals and those conservatives interact.

MAHER: Yes.

BLITZER: I hope you have a real live camera watching them.

MAHER: It will be interesting. We might have chicken fights up there in the crowd.

BLITZER: It could get ugly up there.

Bill Maher, thanks for joining us.

MAHER: All right, thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: That's it for me.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" in Washington starts right now.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com