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V.A Announces Massive Shakeup; VA Secretary McDonald Interviewed; ISIS Leader Injured; Immigration Showdown

Aired November 10, 2014 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Right now, a massive shake-up in the V.A. health care system that could include more than 1,000 pink slips. It's a huge, huge change for the U.S. government right now. The secretary of Veterans Affairs joins me live this hour. It's coming up. We'll talk about these major changes.

Mystery surrounding the fate of the ISIS leader, Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. Was he hit during a wave of coalition air strikes this past weekend?

And less than a week after his party's stinging defeat of the mid- terms, President Obama hits the road. Stop one, a meeting of world leaders underway right now in China.

And hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 in London, 8:00 in Jerusalem, 2:00 a.m. in Beijing. Where you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

One year after CNN broke the story of long waiting lists for veterans seeking care, the new head of the Veterans Affairs Department today is expected to announce a massive shakeup at the department. Robert McDonald took over the V.A. in July after CNN's reporting led to Congressional hearings and the resignation of the then secretary, retired General Eric Shinseki.

Last night on "60 Minutes," McDonald said the V.A. needs to hire about 28 hundred -- excuse me, 28,000 doctors and nurses to clear the backlog of patients waiting for care, including about 2,500 mental health professionals. He also said the scandal could cost up to a thousand V.A. workers losing their jobs and losing their jobs quickly.

Secretary McDonald is joining us here. And thanks, Mr. Secretary McDonald, for joining us.

ROBERT MCDONALD, SECRETARY, VETERANS AFFAIRS ADMINISTRATION: Thank you all for having me with you.

BLITZER: And it's critically important always but especially on the day before Veterans Day here in the United States. So, this minute, 1:00 Eastern here in the United -- you're announcing what is, what, the largest shakeup in the history of the U.S. federal government? Is that what you're saying?

MCDONALD: That's right, Wolf. This is going to be the largest reorganization of the Department of Veterans Affairs since its establishment. We're calling it My V.A. because that's what we want veterans to think about. We want them to think of our department as embracing them, as giving them a warm hug, a place they can go to get the care they need, a department that's totally veteran centered, looking for one outcome which is good outcomes for veterans.

BLITZER: And it's fair to say, this is the result of the -- of the scandals, the problems that have developed over these past several years?

MCDONALD: Well, this is the result of my 42 trips to different V.A. operations, 22 different cities, visits to eight medical schools, talking to thousands of employees, thousands of veterans. I learned a lot. We've had teams of people around the organization from the bottom to the top of the organization working on this reorganization and today we're announcing the major planks.

BLITZER: All right, we're going to go through all of that but let's go through some of the other headlines of what's going on right now. You immediately want to fire 35 workers at the Department of Veterans Affairs but another thousand you want to get rid of as well. Is that right?

MCDONALD: Well, what we've said is that we're taking disciplinary action against those individuals who violated our values. Our values are represented in this acronym I CARE. The I is integrity. And in the case where we've had people violate the value of integrity, we are taking disciplinary action. That disciplinary action over the last year has involved in about 5,600 employees. Some of those are still active and we're in the process of following that to its conclusion. We're acting aggressively, expeditiously and consistent with the law.

BLITZER: But you're very frustrated because unlike the private sector, and you were the chairman of Procter & Gamble for a long time, unlike P&G, to fire a government worker, it's not that easy.

MCDONALD: Well, there's a process that needs to be followed. And it's not all that different than in the private sector. In fact, one of the things I did is I was put out a statement and told the employees about something I call sustainable accountability which is, we should have day-to-day feedback with our employees. And if we're supervising our employees well, our values should not be violated.

BLITZER: Sharon Helman, she's the direct -- she's the director of the Phoenix V.A. and you saw all of our reporting, other news organization, but largely CNN's reporting that people were waiting, vets were waiting way too long to get service. She's still on the government payroll. Is that right?

MCDONALD: What we do is when there's an indication that there could be a violation of one of our values, we take that person and we move them out of operation right away because we don't want any harm to occur to our veterans.

BLITZER: She's no longer the director but she's still getting paid?

MCDONALD: She's no longer in our operation but she's still on the government payroll. BLITZER: Because -- just let me interrupt for a second. Jeff Miller,

who's the Chairman of the House Committee on Veterans Affairs, he put out a statement the other day saying, this isn't complicated. If V.A. has the evidence needed to fire Sharon Helman, which it says it does, it should fire her. Keeping Helman and other Phoenix executives' on the payroll when the department wants to fire them is nothing more than a waste of tax payer dollars.

MCDONALD: Wolf, it's obviously not in my interest to take a long time in disciplining people who have violated our values. As a result, I'm following the law. If a member of Congress wants me to follow a different procedure, they need to pass a different law. The law says that with this level of an employee, what's called a senior executive service employee, I have to propose a disciplinary action. That disciplinary action gets judged by a judicial process. And then, only then, does it get resolved. I need to make sure that every single one of these results in a positive disposition consistent with my proposal. Again, if Congress wants me to follow a different procedure, they've got to pass a different law. The only thing the new law did was it had -- it took the appeal time and cut it in half. That's the only thing the new law did.

BLITZER: And these thousand other workers at the Department of Veterans Affairs, you want to get rid of them expeditiously?

MCDONALD: Anybody who violated our values, we're going to be asking for their separation.

BLITZER: You're also announcing your -- this massive recruitment of more doctors, nurses, psychologists, psychiatrists. You need a lot of help right now, thousands and thousands. Do you have the funding for all of that?

MCDONALD: We do have the funding. The new law that was passed gave us $15 billion. And as a result of that, I'm going to medical schools and I'm telling people the V.A. is a great place to work, an incredibly inspiring mission to care for our veterans. And we are hiring more people.

BLITZER: The -- here is the other problem, this relates to the massive reorganization you've just announced this hour. Republican Senator, Johnny Isakson, he may be the next chairman of the Veterans Affairs Committee, maybe not, of Georgia. He says that your delivery system, the way you deal with veterans is a 1980s delivery system and it's really archaic, if you will, and it doesn't service the hundreds and thousands, millions of veterans who need help.

MCDONALD: We need to be more veteran centric. We need to focus on veteran outcomes. What happens when a crisis occurs, often times in organizations, whether they are business organizations, is they become very internally focused. We need to focus externally, care only about veteran outcomes, and put in place the organization structures we need to care for veterans.

BLITZER: And as a result, you've got this massive reorganization you're announcing today. Do you welcome additional hardcore Congressional oversight?

MCDONALD: I think we have a lot of oversight now. I have great relationships with the members of both committees. I don't think this is about oversight. I think this is about getting the job done. The first -- I was -- watched a House Committee hearing where a member of Congress held up an I.G. report, Inspector General Report, from 2003 and talked about access problems in 2003. This is not a new problem. Many people have been on this committee since 2001 and after. I've been here about and hundred days and I'm eager to fix it. And I'm eager to work with members of Congress to do that and we've got great relationships.

BLITZER: You certainly do. And I'm -- and I wish you the very best. I'm very proud, by the way, of CNN's coverage over the past few years of the scandals plaguing the Department of Veterans Affairs, especially our investigative unit and Drew Griffin. They did an amazing job. And I suspect that, without CNN's reporting over these past few years, you and I would not be talking about this massive reorganization right now.

MCDONALD: What I have told every employee in the V.A. is I want them to be the people to tell me there's a problem. I've asked every employee in the V.A. to tell us, criticize what we do. And in this reorganization that we've talked about, My V.A., we have a level -- teams of employees from every level within the department contributing their ideas to how we need to improve veteran outcomes. So, I mean, to me, that's really critical.

BLITZER: Those whistle blowers who came forward to CNN, they're going to be protected, right?

MCDONALD: They already have been. In fact, we've been certified by the Office of Special Counsel for our whistle blower remediation activity. And the whistle blowers, particularly those in Phoenix, they have been given new jobs, better jobs, great jobs and I think they are seeing changes occur.

BLITZER: And will there be more transparency? I know Drew Griffin and his investigative team, they were so frustrated over the past few years because the Department of Veterans Affairs, under Secretary Shinseki, who's a very honorable man, I knew him when he was in the military, they wouldn't -- they wouldn't really provide any information. Under your leadership, can you tell the people out there, the American public, yes, there will be transparency?

MCDONALD: Well, again, if you're running a customer service organization and you want to take care of customers, you've got to be transparent. We're going to have lots of partners in this organization. And we partner with doctors outside the V.A. system. We partner with veteran service organizations. The only way that's going to work is if you're transparent and working together against the common mission of taking care of veterans in the very best way.

BLITZER: Because there's no greater mission for the United States. If you send men and women off to war, you've got to take care of them when they come home. You're a graduate of West Point. You appreciate that. This is very personal for you, isn't it?

MCDONALD: It is very personal. My father is, obviously, a veteran. After World War II, he served in the occupation forces in japan. My father-in-law was the tail gunner in a B-24. He got shot down over Austria, was a POW. My uncle-in-law was sprayed with Agent Orange as a member of the 101st airborne division. My nephew, right now, is flying missions in the Middle East. So, this is very personal. I have a lot of folks that I served with that I am really -- want to take care of in the very best way I can.

BLITZER: You gave up a huge job at Proctor & Gamble to take on this mission. And I thank you for what you're about to do.

MCDONALD: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: I know the veterans, especially on the eve of Veterans Day, are going to be grateful for all the -- and let's hope you guys can deliver because so many people out there are counting on you.

MCDONALD: We will deliver. We will deliver because we have the entire American public behind us, and we have great partners to work with.

BLITZER: Secretary McDonald, thanks very much.

MCDONALD: Thank you, Wolf. It's good to be with you.

BLITZER: All right. Thank you very much. And to all the veterans out there, --

MCDONALD: Thank you. Happy Veterans Day.

BLITZER: -- Happy Veterans Day, indeed. Stand by.

Up next, an important ISIS convoy under fire from coalition planes. Did they hit the most critical target?

And later, President Obama and Republican leaders, they're headed for a showdown over immigration reform. Our political panel getting ready to break down the late-breaking developments.

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BLITZER: Now, to the battle against ISIS. The coalition launched dozens of air strikes in Iraq and Syria over the weekend, including one that may have wounded the leader of the terror group. Iraq's ministry of the interior says Abu Bakr Al Baghdadi was injured in a coalition strike on a convoy traveling near Mosul in northern Iraq.

Barbara Starr is our Pentagon Correspondent. She's following the story for us. Arwa Damon is joining us as well. She knows a lot about what's going on in Iraq having covered that story for years.

Barbara, let's start with you. What are leaders there at the Pentagon saying about this attack and did they get Al Baghdadi? BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The answer, Wolf, flat out

is, they do not know. There is a lot of rumor out there. Intelligence and military officials now looking into all of it they say. They struck a convoy of 10 vehicles near the northern city of Mosul because, in no small part, it was 10 vehicles. That, to them, indicated that ISIS leadership was probably in those vehicles in a very unusual, large group. So they went ahead and took the shot against it. But when they shot at the convoy, they did not know if Baghdadi was inside. They had no reason to believe it. They tell us one way or the other. So now scouring intercepts, cell phone call transmissions, social media, videos, operatives on the ground trying to get any confirming intelligence they can that Baghdadi might have been there. Right now they do not have it.

Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Barbara, stand by. Certainly very little is known about this chain of command within ISIS or what might happen if Abu Bakr al Baghdadi was, in fact, incapacitated, injured, maybe killed. Let's go to Arwa Damon. She's on the border between Turkey and Syria right now.

But you've covered the situation in Iraq, Arwa, for many years. Put this into some context for us. What would it mean to ISIS if al Baghdadi was, indeed, hit in the attack?

ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's just look at the evolution of ISIS and how the organization emerged as it is today. It started off as al Qaeda and Iraq, then becoming the Islamic state of Iraq. All of this under the U.S. occupation of Iraq and then finally re-emerging post the U.S. troop withdraw to become the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. So that, by any indication, makes it clear that even if the organization's top leadership is taken out, it can still continue to survive and reemerge.

When we looked at what we know about the way ISIS is organized today, you have al Baghdadi at its head, yes, but then he has a deputy and underneath that he has an entire cabinet. They have a war office. In some parts of Syria, their stronghold of Raqqah, for example, they have an entire system of governance being put into place to include ministries. We also hear from various analysts and people that have very close information to how the organization is set up that in some areas they operate as smaller cells, but would be able to continue to carry out operations, acts of terror, even if its top-tier leadership has been taken out.

So while on the one hand taking out Baghdadi would be a major victory, it is not at all likely to bring about the demise of ISIS in and of itself, Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, because so many of those ISIS commanders are veterans of Saddam Hussein's military. These are professional military officers who decided to bolt for whatever reason and go with ISIS.

Arwa, thanks very much. Before I let you go, though, Arwa, I want to congratulate you on a

recent honor. As a lot of our viewers know, all of our viewers, over the years you've always been there right in the middle of the most dangerous places to bring us the news and with courage, bravery. With that in mind, you were recently honored at the Courage in Journalism Awards from the International Women's Media Foundation. There's the picture. Arwa, well-deserved. One of the most courageous journalists in the world, Arwa Damon, doing amazing work for all of us.

DAMON: Thank you.

BLITZER: Don't blush too much, Arwa, just go back and do the job that you've been -- we can count on you to do it as brilliantly as you always have. Arwa Damon, Barbara Starr, guys, thanks very much.

President Obama tells Republicans in Congress, pass immigration reform or I'll take action on my own. The two sides appear to be on a collision course over fixing the immigration system. Our political panel getting ready to weigh in, when we come back.

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BLITZER: President Obama and Republicans in Congress appear to be on a collision course over immigration reform. Republicans have warned the president not to use executive orders to change current immigration policy. But on CBS' "Face the Nation," the president said he gave the House speaker, John Boehner, a chance to pass an immigration bill.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: For a year I stood back and let him work on this. He decided not to call the Senate bill and he couldn't produce his own bill. And I told him at the time, John, if you don't do it, I've got legal authority to make improvements on the system. I'd prefer and still prefer to see it done through Congress, but every day that I wait, we're misallocating resources, we're deporting people that shouldn't be deported, we're not deporting folks that are dangerous and need to be deported. So, John, I'm going to give you some time, but if you can't get it done before the end of the year, I'm going to have to take the steps that I can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, let's bring in our political panel, our chief political analyst Gloria Borger, our CNN political commentator Paul Begala, and the former House speaker, Newt Gingrich, also a CNN political commentator.

Hey, Newt, what - that sounds like an ultimatum to me. What about to you?

NEWT GINGRICH, HOST, CNN's "CROSSFIRE": Well, I don't know that the Constitution works on the president's deadlines. He can wish for things, but he can't command them. It's not a kingship or a dictatorship. And I think both Senator McConnell and Speaker Boehner have made it quite clear, if, in fact, he does something as extraordinary as trying to change the law for millions of people, he will almost certainly face, I think, a direct fight with the new Congress and one that I suspect he can't win.

BLITZER: All right, Paul, what about that?

PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: He has an obligation under the law to faithfully execute the law. He believes, as the chief executive, that it's not being properly executed now. He has an obligation to do this. By the way, today, 501 days since the Senate passed a bipartisan immigration bill. Two more - by the way, there are - Mr. Speaker, correct me if I'm wrong, but there are easily 218 votes, bipartisan votes, in the House today that could pass that law if they opened it up and Speaker Boehner gave a free vote, let both parties vote on it. You'd have 218 votes easily, wouldn't you?

GINGRICH: Now, look, Paul, first of all, there's a brand-new poll out from Kelly Ann Conway (ph) that says 74 percent of the people who voted last week are deeply opposed to the president doing this on his own.

BEGALA: So pass the bill. Yes.

GINGRICH: Overwhelmingly - look, overwhelmingly, even people who want it done want it done in cooperation with the Congress. And I think you have to start with that. I mean you weren't elected speaker of the House. You don't set the House's legislative agenda. The guy who was just got re-elected by a huge margin. And here you have the Republicans gaining Senate seats, House seats, governorships, almost 300 state legislatures and the president's behaving as though nothing happened last Tuesday.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you know, I think what the president could do is he could issue an executive order and say that it goes into effect on day x. Give the House a little bit of time if they can pass a bill. I mean, after all, as you both said, they had the -

BEGALA: Five hundred and one days.

BORGER: OK. So they've had the opportunity to do that. The president could do that. And I would also hope that even if they don't, and there's a problem on immigration, that you can segment these things. Different parts of a legislative agenda. Some things they can agree on and some things they won't agree on.

BLITZER: But, Paul, the president has drawn a red line now. He said, by the end of this year.

BEGALA: Yes. Right.

BLITZER: So, Congress is going to go into recess for Christmas and New Year's. There's only a few weeks left before the end of this year.

BORGER: Well, but he - he -

BEGALA: They could do it in one day. I know this. I've worked on The Hill. I'm not an expert like New, but I've worked on The Hill. I guarantee there's 218 votes in the House today to pass that bipartisan bill. It's not everything that the president wants or everything Republicans would want, but the speaker has that obligation to let the House work its will.

BORGER: But -

BLITZER: Well then are there -- are there 218 votes in the House to pass the Senate legislation?

GINGRICH: Oh, I don't think so. I think that that whole mood has shifted. I think the children coming across the border last summer in such huge numbers shook people. I think the Ebola has shaken people. There's a much stricter attitude right now about, for example, controlling the borders first. But let me just point out, the president can act, but then the Congress can react. The Congress has passed a new - a spending limitation, exactly what Boland (ph) did in 1982 to Ronald Reagan, and can say, no money can be spent to implement this executive order. And I think the president will have a very difficult time --

BORGER: Well, but then that would be the showdown.

GINGRICH: Sure.

BORGER: Well, but then - but then that would be the showdown and then one might argue it would be up to the other party to say, OK, if we're not going to accept this from the president, this is what we do want and this is what we will agree to, right?

BLITZER: Let's say, Paul, and I want to take a -

GINGRICH: (INAUDIBLE) - all I could say is they're not going to accept it.

BLITZER: Hold on a second, Mr. Speaker. Hold on for one second. I'm going to take a break, but I want to get Paul's thoughts on this immigration before we move on to other topics. If the president, before the end -- if there's no legislation passed -

BEGALA: Right.

BLITZER: And I assume there won't be any legislation passed. I think the speaker probably is right, there probably won't be any legislation - if there's no legislation passed, the president signs executive orders changing the status of some of those 11 million who are here with undocumented papers and, in effect, gives them amnesty. That's going to cause a huge uproar, right?

BEGALA: Well, first of all, it's not amnesty. We have to wait and see what the president proposes.

BLITZER: But, wait a minute, what is amnesty - amnesty --

BORGER: Legal status.

BEGALA: Amnesty is no punishment, no sanctions.

BLITZER: But if they can stay legally, isn't that amnesty?

GINGRICH: Right.

BEGALA: No. No.

BORGER: For a limited -- temporarily. Temporarily.

BEGALA: First off they - at least from what I understand, they would have to register.

BORGER: Right.

BEGALA: Under the law that was passed, the bill that was passed by the Senate, they would have to pay back taxes. They would have to study English. They'd have to get in the back of the line. Lots and lots of punishments.

BLITZER: And at that point they would get amnesty. They would eventually get amnesty.

BEGALA: There would be a lot more punishments for that than there were for Dick Cheney shooting his friend in the face. I mean this is not amnesty. Amnesty means no sanction, no punishment for your conduct. This would be severe punishment, actually.

BLITZER: Amnesty was what happened during the Reagan administration -

BORGER: That's right.

BEGALA: That's correct.

BLITZER: When they gave all those millions of people amnesty.

BEGALA: And the republic survived, by the way, under Ronald Reagan's amnesty.

BLITZER: All right, all right, stand by. Let's continue this conversation. We've got a lot more to talk about. The 2016 presidential race. Former President George W. Bush hopes his brother Jeb will run. We're going to ask the panel about the chances of another Bush winning the White House.

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