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People Incensed By Staten Island Grand Jury Decision; Congress, City Officials Deal with Grand Jury Fallout; NYC Mayor, Police Commissioner to Give Press Conference.

Aired December 04, 2014 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: But let's get back to the other news we're watching today. Many people across the country, they are incensed by the grand jury's decision in Staten Island, New York, and point to the videotape of the July confrontation as proof that an indictment should have come forward, and the medical examiner's conclusion that the chokehold contributed to Eric Garner's death.

Today, the president of the National Urban League, Marc Morial, called the grand jury's decision a travesty.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARC MORIAL, PRESIDENT & CEO, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE: People who love the nation and are committed to its principles are outraged at what we see. And we cannot stand, and we cannot sit, and we refuse to watch, and we are committed to action that will bring about meaningful change.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Lots to discuss. Joining us from New York, the Staten Island councilwoman, Debi Rose. Her home district is where the confrontation between Eric Garner and the police took place. Also joining us, the attorney, the former federal prosecutor, Laurie Levenson, joining us from Los Angeles; and in Washington, our CNN law enforcement analyst, Tom Fuentes, a form FBI assistant director.

Councilwoman Rose, let me start with you.

You've said, very bluntly, repeatedly, that the justice system here in the United States shows, in your words, "that black life is valueless." Explain what you mean by that. Those are powerful, strong words.

DEBI ROSE, STATE ISLAND COUNCILMAN: Well, once again, Wolf, we saw that where the value of a black life had less meaning than other parts -- other people in our communities. This community had held on to hope for an indictment, an indictment that would say that, yes, there is value to a life that's from the community of color and, yes, that they saw what we saw. We are in shock. We are angry. And we are profoundly disappointed that the district attorney and the grand juries did not see fit to convict Officer Pantaleo.

BLITZER: Does it make any difference to you, Councilwoman, that there were 23 members of the grand jury, 14 white people, nine non-white people on that grand jury?

ROSE: You know, we were concerned about the demographics of Staten Island and what the grand jury would look like, but we believe that with the visual evidence that was presented, a videotape where a man said, 11 times, "I can't breathe," that they could not possibly think that this was not over policing and an unwarranted death.

BLITZER: Tom Fuentes, are there two sets of rules here in the United States when it comes to law and order, and justice, one for blacks, one for whites?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: You know, Wolf, when I was a police officer, six years in Cook County, Illinois, I spent probably three to five days minimum a month in the Cook County court system and I saw we had a disparate justice system. It wasn't white and black. It was rich and poor. We knew, as police officers, my fellow officers and I would talk, when someone came into court and had a high-priced attorney, white or black, they would get much less severe treatment or sentencing or no sentencing at all. And the people that had to rely on the public defender's office, which was so overworked, so understaffed, they didn't get the same representation. So whether you're a celebrity like O.J., with the Dream Team, or, you know, poor defendants in Cook County, and I'm sure courtrooms around the country, what I saw was, if you're poor, you're not going to get the same treatment as if you have a good attorney and go into court.

BLITZER: You say it's more socioeconomic as opposed to race?

FUENTES: That's what I say.

Laurie Levenson, you studied this and you're a scholar. What do you think?

LAURIE LEVENSON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: I think it's all of the above. Wolf, I think that race still does make a difference. It also makes a difference whether it's a police officer or a civilian. We give police officers this permission to use force, but then when they overuse it, we want them to be held accountable. Yet, from the grand juror's perspective, it's not that easy because things are happening so fast. What I have seen is that people see other people differently. They see them differently because of their race, their socioeconomic level, and also because whether they're a police officer or not.

BLITZER: All right. I'm going to have all three of you standby. We have a lot more to discuss.

So much distrust right now here in the United States between minorities, local police forces in so many communities all across the country. How to move forward, how to bridge the divide? We'll talk about some possible solutions, what's going on, and a lot more when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We're standing by to hear from the mayor of New York City, Bill de Blasio, and the police commissioner of New York, Bill Bratton. They're about to hold a news conference in New York. You see the reporters. They're already there. They should be walking in momentarily. We're going to get the latest developments in the aftermath of this grand jury decision in New York yesterday, not to go ahead and indict this white police officer in the death, the choking death, of a black man on Staten Island in New York. We'll have live coverage of that coming up. So standby.

Meanwhile, city officials, members of Congress here in Washington, they're continuing to deal with all the fallout from the grand jury decision. The 43-year-old unarmed black man was placed in a fatal chokehold by a white NYPD police officer.

Let's bring back our panel, the Staten Island councilwoman, Debi Rose; the former federal prosecutor, Laurie Levenson; and CNN's law enforcement analyst, Tom Fuentes.

Debi Rose, let me play for you this clip. I interviewed Dr. Ben Carson. He's now thinking of running for the Republican presidential nomination. He's a famed pediatric neurosurgeon from Johns Hopkins University. We spoke about what's going on in Ferguson, Missouri, before the grand jury decision in Staten Island, but listen to what he said about police in America.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. BEN CARSON, NEUROSURGEON: I challenge people all the time, imagine living for 24 hours with no police. People will be walking into your house saying, hey, I think I like that television, and I'm it taking that. It would be total chaos. So the police are our friends. Are they perfect in all cases? Of course not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: You want to react to that, Debi Rose?

ROSE: Yes. This is not an issue of police and what they endure. This is about treatment, a different standard applied in communities of color as opposed to a standard that they use in other communities. And so with Ben Carson's remark, he does a disservice to this community when he tries to trivialize how the -- what we know the reality is and how those services are delivered.

BLITZER: Is one of the problems, Tom Fuentes -- you were a cop before you became an FBI agent, former assistant director of the FBI -- racial profiling in the United States?

FUENTES: You know, there probably is some cases of profiling. No question about it. But I think, in this case, when the police officers arrive -- I would like to see the whole videotape from the beginning, because to make such a minor arrest of selling illegal -- selling cigarettes that are legal but not having a business license to do it, you don't have six cops show up to do that arrest. This escalated gradually over time with probably the first officer asking for assistance and more assistance and more plain-clothed guys arrived. And we constantly hear, white police officers killed Eric Garner, the black man. We don't hear anything about the fact that, in the video, you see there is a black female New York City police sergeant at the scene. She could have called this off, told the police officers this is a minor charge, let him go, don't arrest him. He doesn't want to be arrested, we won't arrest him. When Garner is on the ground after the hold is released waiting for the paramedics to take him, you see in the background other black female police officers. This was not Rodney King with a bunch of ferocious white cops beating on somebody. This is a group of officers who are trying to take a large human being into custody who just doesn't want to comply.

BLITZER: The big problem here, Laurie Levenson -- and you've studied this from various angles -- is that a lot of people in the United States are losing confidence in the entire legal system, the justice system, in the country. They think it's unfair, to which you say?

LEVENSON: Well, that's the biggest problem, because, frankly, as was said before, we need our police, but we need them to do their job right. And part of that is seeing people for who they are as opposed to the color of their skin. I think officers do tend to see people as large or dangerous, in part, based on what they're wearing and the color of their skin.

On the other hand, if we are too quick to go after police officers, people will not become police officers or they'll stop doing the policing. And we've actually seen this in some of the pattern and practices cases that have been brought. There have been some situations where there's consent decrees and the officers say, you know what, we're not going to do arrests, because if we do them, we can get in trouble. Leave things alone we're not going to be under the scrutiny of civil rights. That's not a good option either.

BLITZER: All right, Laurie Levenson, stand by, Debi Rose, Tom Fuentes.

We will take another quick break. I think the mayor of New York, Bill de Blasio; the police chief in New York, Bill Bratton, they're going to be speaking momentarily, taking reporters' questions on these developments.

Our special coverage resumes right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting from Washington.

We're standing by. Any moment now, the mayor of New York City, Bill de Blasio; the police commissioner in New York, Bill Bratton, they will be holding a news conference, speaking out on the latest developments, all the protests that erupted in New York City overnight after that grand jury on Staten Island in New York did not indict the white police officer in the choking death of a black man, Eric Garner.

Joining us to help us in this conversation, as we await the news conference, Cedric Alexander, a police chief, DeKalb County, in Georgia. He's joining us from Atlanta.

Chief, thanks very much for joining us.

Tom Fuentes is still with us, as is Debi Rose, the Staten Island, New York, city council member.

And let me quickly get your thought, Debi Rose. You and I were talking about what Eric Garner was doing that resulted in this takedown and the attempted arrest on the streets of Staten Island that caused this uproar. You say he was not trying to sell cigarettes on that day?

ROSE: Wolf, I think it's very important that we clarify, at this point, Eric Garner was not engaged in any activity. He was not selling loose cigarettes at that moment. He was not engaged in any criminality. He had just crossed the street from breaking up a fight with two young people. And when the police approached him, he was not selling loose cigarettes. He had a history, and they knew him, and a record of selling loose cigarettes, but he was not, at that time, engaged in that activity.

BLITZER: Because he did have, what, 30 arrests over several years, right?

ROSE: Yes. Yes, he did. And so --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Relatively minor charges, selling cigarettes without taxes, stuff like that.

ROSE: It's certainly not -- it doesn't warrant being killed over selling loose cigarettes, even if he was engaged in that activity at that moment, which he was not. And this is just another example of overzealous enforcement of the broken-windows policy that NYPD has adopted.

BLITZER: Let me get Chief Alexander to respond to that.

Cedric Alexander, I'm really anxious to get your thoughts on what's going on right now in our country.

CEDRIC ALEXANDER, CHIEF, DEKALB COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, you know, the decision around this case and the case in Missouri has already been made, Wolf, so we're at a point right now, quite frankly, where we have a country and a number of people in this country, both black and white, Americans, period, I must say, who are questioning the criminal justice system. And with the type of protests that we're seeing across the country, the concerns that people have about these incidents and others that have occurred, what comes to me is the fact, I think, that around this entire criminal justice system in this country and, in particular, the whole grand jury process in and of itself.

Now, that being said, Wolf, I have to say this as well, too. We have to move forward and figure out how community relations and policing in this country are going to join ranks so that, as a nation, we can secure ourselves with good public safety because that is going to be paramount as we move together as a nation.

BLITZER: Do you believe there are two justice systems in the United States, one for blacks and one for whites?

ALEXANDER: Well, that's been a long-standing question for many people in this country, and depending on where you live and your economic status and your race and even sometimes your gender, that certainly can be a reality for a lot of people. But it's an issue the fact that that question is still being raised today, in 2014. That in and of itself is a problem and we have to find a way to resolve that so Americans across this country, all of us, can feel that we have a fair voice and a fair place in the criminal justice system.

BLITZER: Is there one system for civilians, justice system for civilians, and separate very different system for law enforcement, for police officers, who may be suspected of some sort of crime?

ALEXANDER: The system is the same for all people. The difference is here to me, Wolf -- and I've been in this business for a very long time -- police are in a very unique position. They get called to a location to investigate and, at that point, decisions that they make in the time that they have to make them in, regardless, because, in every case, they are all very different, timing is different, circumstances are different, the players involved are different. It's not that there's a different judicial system for police, it's just what I think is taken into consideration is what they are confronted with, which is very different than the general population. But what we have to figure out and what we have to find going forward is that we've got to have community that trusts that when police officers arrive to the scene, they are doing so with a great deal of diligence and without bias.

BLITZER: People all over the world, Tom Fuentes, are watching us on CNN right now and they are looking at the United States of America saying, what is going on? A guy, even if he were selling illegal cigarettes on the street, he's taken down by six police officers and effectively is choked to death, if you will, for that. They say, how could that happen in the United States of America?

FUENTES: It's interesting, a lot of the -- especially in Europe, I hear from police officers who say that our police don't carry guns. In China, our police don't carry guns. When a police officer says, "you're under arrest," you better comply. They don't see these street arguments and debates and wrestling matches on the street like we do. And if somebody wrestles with the police in those countries, the punishment is severe. You know, these countries in Europe still use water cannons? I witnessed this myself once when a riot broke out after a soccer match in Denmark. I feel the hotel shaking, a big tank comes up and it was a man-made tsunami. We abolished the use of water cannons or fire hoses in 1963 during the civil rights movement. There are police agencies in the world that still use it whenever they need it.

BLITZER: What do you say, Debi Rose? And you're a New York council member that represents Staten Island. And Staten Island, unlike the other boroughs in New York, is very different. The demographics of Staten Island very different. That presumably a grand jury considering the facts in this case, had they met in Brooklyn or Queens or Manhattan, may have come up with a different decision because of the unique character, shall we say, of Staten Island?

ROSE: That's a fact in the thinking that has propelled the Garner family to request a federal investigation because it would then be tried in the Brooklyn federal court and the demographics would be much different, and so that's why they have asked for a federal prosecutor to intervene.

BLITZER: Chief Alexander, what do we need to do to fix these problems right now? We know the president is obviously focusing on what's going on. The outgoing attorney general, Eric Holder, is traveling it around the country. He's focusing in on what's going on. But you're there in Atlanta, in DeKalb County. You have a day-to-day issue you have to deal with. What do we all need to focus on and do?

ALEXANDER: One thing we've been fortunate about in this community here in DeKalb and across metro Atlanta is we have great working relationships with our communities, both our elected officials and appointed officials, such as myself. We're in constant contact with them. We problem-solve the small problems together, so when we have larger issues, we're not coming to the table together for the first time. And we all have made a commitment to the community, and the community has made a commitment to DeKalb County and to its policing. So for us, as it relates to public safety, what I would say to the rest of the country is this, we're not perfect. We do have our challenges as well, too. What is going to be paramount, Wolf, is that communities across this country, the leadership in those communities, whether they are elected leaderships, appointed, and the business community as well, too, we have to start engaging in conversations that's going to move our communities forward and in a way that public safety is at the top of everything that we do. Because we're just not talking about an issue that affects us locally in our respective communities. We also leave ourselves open up to other global issues that may try to infiltrate us merely because we're distressed with these issues around race. We have to solve this problem ourselves as American people. And the commitment by all of us has to be made to do that in our own respective communities.

BLITZER: Debi Rose, what do you want to hear from the mayor of New York, Bill de Blasio; the police commissioner, Bill Bratton? They're about to speak, hold this news conference in New York City. What's the most important thing you would like to hear them say?

ROSE: I want to hear the police commissioner and the mayor of New York say that they're going to do something to ensure that the disparities in enforcement that communities of color see will be eradicated. I want them to say that bad-acting police officers, which are not the majority, but bad actors will be taken off of the streets. We have, in my district -- seven out of 10 of the worst bad actors in New York City are in one precinct. I want those officers off of the streets. They can be inside, but they should not be interacting with the community where they have established a pattern of overly aggressive policing.

BLITZER: The points she's making, Tom, these are powerfully emotional points people are making all over the country right now. There's a real problem that local law enforcement departments have in regaining confidence in the aftermath of what's happened in Ferguson, what happened to that 12-year-old little boy in Cleveland, what's happened in Staten Island. This is part of a bigger problem.

FUENTES: Yeah, and she raises a very good point. You have police officers that have demonstrated that they don't belong on the street, they don't belong in uniform. There aren't enough office jobs to hide these people. They don't belong on the police department. The only way to avoid that is, since you can't get rid of them easily, is not to hire them in the first place. New York P.D. and other departments need to look at what is their selection process and their promotion process, and how much training are they given, and what's internal discipline for officers who behave badly. All of those are valid points that should be addressed.

BLITZER: One problem we saw in Ferguson, Chief Alexander, was that a small town, maybe 50 or 60 law enforcement, police officers, in Ferguson, all but three of them white, even though the community itself was about 70 percent black. That's a problem right there, right?

ALEXANDER: Well, we know that certainly diversity has great benefits in government, in particular, when it comes to public service. So, yes, that does play a role. And we all should be, in that community, hopefully, will start moving toward diversifying that department there in Ferguson itself.

BLITZER: Debi Rose, give me a final thought right now, as we await the mayor. You still have confidence in the system here in the United States, the legal system, the justice system?

ROSE: I believe that the justice system was set up with a purpose of establishing equality and justice for all. I think the system is broken when it comes to certain communities and that we need to now indulge in getting accountability to be what is -- to hold them to the fire. We need accountability. We need for the police department to recognize that they need to use their own process that they put in place, courtesy, professionalism, and respect in all communities.

BLITZER: Debi Rose, from Staten Island, a council member, thanks very much for joining us.

Cedric Alexander, the police chief in DeKalb County in Atlanta, around Atlanta, Georgia, thanks to you.

Tom Fuentes, thanks to you, as well.

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is coming up right now.

For our viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.