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Report Revives CIA Torture Debate; Report Examines Enhanced Interrogation; Hostage's Families Not Asked About Rescue Effort; Hostages Killed During Rescue Attempt; California Protests; Police Clash with Protesters; Clinton and Bush Runs

Aired December 08, 2014 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Right now, violence and death, that's what the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee says will likely follow the results of the CIA report on U.S. interrogation techniques. We're digging into what's inside this brand-new report and when it could be and released.

Tough questions coming out today after an unsuccessful U.S. raid to rescue hostages in Yemen. We're hearing for the first time from the American hostage's family.

Bottles, bricks and rocks thrown at protesters by police during demonstrations in Berkley and in Oakland, California. We're going to talk about what's next as we enter week three of nationwide protests against police involved killings.

Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 9:00 p.m. in Kuwait City, 2:00 a.m. Tuesday in Manila. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

Up first, the new report on torture techniques by the CIA and warnings that it could trigger violence and deaths around the world. One question examined the Senate Intelligence Committee report, did the so-called enhanced interrogation techniques help the United States find Osama Bin Laden? The report also puts the spotlight back on President George W. Gush and his administration's antiterrorism policies. In an interview with our own Candy Crowley, the former president strongly defended the CIA.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're fortunate to have men and women who work hard at the CIA serving on our behalf. These are patriots and whatever the report says, if it diminishes their contributions to our country, it is way off base. And I knew the directors. I knew the deputy directors. You know, I knew a lot of the operators. These are good people, really good people. And we're lucky as a nation to have them.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BLITZER: Let's bring in our Justice Reporter Evan Perez and our National Security Analyst Bob Baer. Evan, first to you. This report supposedly could be released as early as tomorrow, right?

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE REPORTER: That's right, Wolf. And, you know, it's really remarkable that we're talking about this and we're talking about George Bush's most controversial policies six years into the presidency of Barack Obama who had said he wanted to turn the page on all of these things. But this report is going to be really, really bad for the CIA. It's going to remind us of all the things that went on in this program which they now disavow, they say that they would not want repeated. And, you know, it's going to focus on a number of things, including the fact that it was a fairly haphazardly put together program, that it was -- they -- accordingly to the Senate Democrats who have led this report, they say that the CIA ended up misleading Congress and the White House about the program, Wolf. And they also say that there was nothing of value that ever came from the program.

Now, the CIA also disavowing the program also simply says that, you know, they believe some things of value were gotten there. We know that three detainees that the CIA had, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ammar Al Baluchi and Janat Gul (ph), provided information. The CIA says that they were key to providing the intelligence that led to the courier that led them to Bin Laden and killing Bin Laden.

BLITZER: All right, Evan, I want you to stay -- stand by because I want to bring Bob Baer into this as well. The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Mike Rogers, he was very forceful yesterday on "STATE OF THE UNION" right here on CNN saying, releasing this report will be very, very dangerous. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE ROGERS (R), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE: Our foreign partners are telling us this will cause violence and deaths. Our foreign leaders who've approached the government and said, you do this, this will cause violence and deaths. Our own intelligence community has assessed that this will cause violence and deaths.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: We also know that the secretary of state, John Kerry, personally phoned Dianne Feinstein, the chair of the Intelligence Committee saying, don't release this report right now. The timing could be awful for the U.S. What are you hearing from your former colleagues over there at the CIA?

BOB BAER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, they don't believe, Wolf, that it should be released at all. That this this should've been a secret program. It was set up at the White House, the Department of Justice. They did what they were told to do. And the details of this should've never gotten out. If anything, these things should've gotten military tribunal. Whether it's going to cause death and violence, that's -- it's unknowable at this point. But it's going to look bad for the United States government. And I think what the people at the CIA are saying, at the rank and

file at least, is, listen, the Department of Justice said this is legal. The White House says we've got to do this to get intelligence. They did what they were told to do. They don't think they've done anything wrong. And they'd like to see a stronger defense from the current intelligence director, Brennon. You know, I -- it's going to be ugly, in any case.

BLITZER: You know, it's interesting, Evan, because a lot of the supporters at the CIA, people who were directly involved in these enhanced interrogation techniques have gone back and looked at the public record, what the chairman, for example, at that time, of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Jay Rockefeller, was saying publicly, including an interview he did with me CNN's late edition back on March 2, 2003. Evan, I want to play this little clip because they're referring to what the chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee said then.

PEREZ: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: There are presidential memorandums that prescribe and allow certain measures to be taken but we have to be careful. On the other hand, he does have the information. Getting that information will save American lives. We have no business not getting that information.

BLITZER: Well, the question I'm asking, I guess, and I'll ask it to both of you, torture. Should the U.S. torture this guy?

ROCKEFELLER: We do not sanction torture but there are psychological and other means that can accomplish most of what we want.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BLITZER (live): I was in a joint interview with the then Senator Trent Lott as well. What they're saying, and you've heard this from CIA guys who were directly involved in this program. Bob has heard it. They work closely with the Senate Intelligence Committee, the House Intelligence Committee. They were -- they were telling them exactly what they are doing, in terms of the waterboarding, the sleep deprivation, the other techniques that they were using. For them now to say that this is a surprise they say is so hypocritical.

PEREZ: Well, yes. I mean, and that's actually a great point, Wolf. And one of the things that was -- that does come out in this report is the allegation that the CIA withheld stuff from the senators. That, in other words, they did tell them some things but didn't tell them everything. And that when they went in and dug into the details, there was a lot more there that was being done that exceeded the guidance from the Justice Department and exceeded what the White House had authorized which, you know, is hard to believe, frankly, because there were people at the White House who were deeply involved in this. They were getting some of the reports and yet they are not mentioned in their report, Wolf. They're not really -- there's no focus on them. It's -- all of the focus is on the CIA.

BLITZER: All right, I want you to hold on, Evan. Bob Baer, hold on for a moment because there's something else I want to discuss with you. The -- a family of an Al Qaeda hostage, Luke Somers, now says they were not asked to sign off on Friday's daring rescue attempt in South Yemen. The president ordered U.S. Navy SEALs into the remote desert region in the belief that Somers was about to be executed by his Al Qaeda, in the Arabian Peninsula, captors. The SEALs knew Somers was probably not the only hostage in the compound but they did not know the other hostage was the South African -- a South African teacher. A fire fight broke out and both Somers and the South African were shot and wounded before the SEALs could rescue them. Both hostages later died of their wounds.

Let's bring in our Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr. Barbara, military operations like these are done in complete secrecy. Why would anyone believe that there would be some sort of consultation with the family before Navy SEALs are deployed? They would fear, the U.S., understandably, there could be a leak. The entire mission could be compromised if family members who don't have security clearances would be informed about that.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Wolf, I think what we're dealing with here is a very sensitive issue. A family -- two families in grief, really coming to grips and understanding with what happened here. The U.S. military, the CIA just does not inform families of time, date and place when they might stage a commando operation to try and rescue an American hostage. That just simply does not happen. There is communication through the FBI and, you know, the typical language a family would be told is that everything is being done to get your loved one back.

Luke Somers' stepmother and sister commented on this to CNN earlier. And what they said was, and let me quote in part. They said, quote, "We feel that Luke's stance would have been that more discussion should have taken place between the country's concern and that these crises should be solved with more dialogue and less conflict." But, of course, the understanding was, from that videotape that we all saw last week, that Luke Somers would be murdered by his Al Qaeda captors within three days and that certainly played part in the U.S. deciding to proceed with this mission and, as always, the U.S. position is it does not negotiate with terrorists. It does not offer ransom. So, this is a very difficult situation. The president making the decision. They had the best chance they were ever going to get. They had the best information they were ever going to get to go in and try and get him -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Barbara Starr with that information over at the Pentagon. Let's bring back our National Security Analyst Bob Baer. Bob, these military missions, these Navy SEAL operations are always incredibly risky. When things go wrong, they can sometimes go really wrong. Is there another option that doesn't involve negotiating with terrorists, paying ransoms that potentially could result in the freedom of these American hostages, short of a formal military operation?

BAER: Wolf, no. I mean, the president didn't really have a choice. If he truly believed that Somers was going to be executed in three days, he had to send the SEALs in. The SEALs went in knowing that these operations are always iffy. The intelligence is never good enough to know what's going on inside a house like that, what the intentions of the captors are. So, when they went in, they knew there was a good chance that Somers could be killed. They didn't -- they didn't see an option. And, by the way, there's no way that they could tell the families or anybody outside of a very tightly knit circle.

BLITZER: They say they didn't know that the South African hostage, Pierre Korkie, that some private group was only hours away from securing, supposedly, his release. Should that have made a difference, as far as the Navy SEAL operation is concerned?

BAER: Well, they coincided with the deadline for Somers for his execution. And I don't -- probably not. They probably would've gone in anyhow to save both of them. And they didn't know -- as I understand, they didn't know that there was a South African being held with him. So, they -- with the best information that they had, they made the right decision.

BLITZER: And, unfortunately, it didn't work out. And both of these hostages are now dead. All right, Bob, thanks very much. Bob Baer, helping us appreciate what's going on.

Other news we're following. Protesters are blocking streets -- they're clash -- streets. They're clashing with police out in California. We're going to have the latest on the demonstrations over the choke hold death of Eric Garner in New York City.

And later, looking ahead to the 2016 presidential race here in the United States. But if you ask a couple of the possible contenders, it may not necessary be a dream job. We're going to explain what's going on.

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BLITZER: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer here in Washington.

We're just getting this update on what we just reported from our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr. She is now reporting that thousands of United States Marines have been put on a higher state of alert around the world in advance of the anticipated release of a U.S. Senate Intelligence Committee report on the interrogation techniques that the U.S. used following 9/11. This according to a U.S. defense official who tells our Barbara Starr that the Marines are all part of what's described as a contingency response force positioned in key areas around the world, especially near U.S. embassies in sensitive parts of the world, especially in North Africa and the Middle East. Two thousand Marines also have been called up as part of the contingency response force in Africa. Another 2,000 in the Middle East. Twenty-two hundred Marines - at sea Marine expeditionary force.

Once again, there is deep concern in the U.S. government that if the Senate Intelligence Committee goes ahead and releases this report, and it could be released as early as tomorrow, there could be some major ramifications. We heard the House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers tell our Candy Crowley yesterday, there could be violence and deaths if this report is released. We know the secretary of state, John Kerry, has appealed to Senator Dianne Feinstein, don't release this report right now because of the potential that Americans around the world could be endangered. And now we're learning from Barbara Starr that U.S. Marines have been alerted to go on a higher state of alert in advance of the Senate report on enhanced interrogation that some call torture techniques.

So we'll have a lot more on this story coming up. Obviously a serious development. To release or not to release, that is the question for the Senate Intelligence Committee right now.

Other news we're following. No letup in the protesters over the chokehold death of Eric Garner at the hands of a Staten Island police officer. And in some locations, the protests clearly have turned violent. Out in Berkeley, California, the demonstrations spilled over into the early morning hours of today. The decision not to indict the police officer involved in Garner's death has set off demonstrations across the United States. Police in Berkeley say some protesters threw rocks, bottles, explosives at them. They responded by firing tear gas. At least eight protesters were arrested. Two police officers, by the way, were injured.

Protesters also clashed with police in Oakland, California, not very far away from Berkeley. The mayor of Oakland, Jean Quan, is on the phone with us.

Mayor, thanks very much for joining us. What's going on in Oakland compared to Berkeley?

MAYOR JEAN QUAN, OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA (via telephone): You know, it has been, all of the demonstrations, you know, in the Bay area, San Francisco, Oakland, Berkeley have been very similar. You have had thousands of fairly peaceful demonstrators and, in each case, a very small group of people in San Francisco and Oakland and Berkeley then late in the night do some vandalism. I'm not going to comment on Berkeley because that's just happened and I don't think people have been able to look at that.

But, you know, Oakland's had the long history of trying to work police reform. We're one of the first cities to have personalized cameras now for several years and our complaints against the police are way down. And it's the first time probably in the history that we've gone over a year without an officer-involved shooting. So we've actually made a lot of progress. But despite that, we're still, because we're at the center of the B.A.R.T. system here in the Bay area, we've been the site of a lot of demonstrations constantly.

BLITZER: Has there been looting and violence? I know most of the protesters have been peaceful. But, mayor, what about in Oakland, have stores been burnt down? Have they been destroyed? What's going on?

QUAN: No. I mean, I've got to -- Wolf, when I said yesterday to your producer, I want - I said, you know, last week there were nine garbage cans that were put in the middle of the street and were set on fire and it make it look like Oakland was on fire. We had had broken windows, particularly in the beginning of demonstrations. At the end, literally maybe less than a dozen people who have broken about 10 windows a night. But it's not like -- I've got to say that the national media, by focusing on them, almost makes, you know, makes what they're doing out of proportion the fact that, on the other hand, thousands of people demonstrate and are nonviolent. And so the way the media handles what vandalism there is, I've got to say that we're tired of that.

That we've spent a lot of our resources making sure that the small numbers of demonstrators at the end of demonstrations don't vandalize the city. We've asked people not to have their marches at night and haven't been very effective in that because that sets the stage at which a handful of anarchists can do damage in the Bay area and it's pretty much the same pattern in San Francisco, Oakland and Berkeley.

BLITZER: Have you arrested those anarchists, as you call them?

QUAN: Yes, we actually have. We've made a lot of arrests among the people who actually have done the damage. We picked up a couple of the people who had broken windows in Berkeley on Saturday when they were in Berkeley, that we noticed that we - that we saw demonstrators who have been responsible for breaking windows in Oakland and getting in fights of people who tried to stop them.

I mean I will -- I think that the media doesn't do a good job of talking about the people within the demonstration each time that tried to stop people from breaking windows. One of the most poignant stories I know of is there was a group of demonstrators a few weeks ago who were going to take out the windows of the only bakery in north Oakland that takes food stamps and takes WIC stamps and most of the - unfortunately, most of the people who have been involved in vandalism have been white and this was a group of 10 young people who stood in front of that bakery and told them to stop it.

Just the other night, some demonstrators tried to put garbage cans in the middle of the street to set them on fire and other demonstrators grabbed the cans, put them back on the sidewalk. So the media doesn't cover that part of it. I think a lot of - particularly my young African-American activists have been doing the job and trying to keep the peace and when they closed down B.A.R.T. the other day, they did it the old fashioned way, civil disobedience. You know they train on non-violent civil disobedience and it closed down the B.A.R.T. system for a couple of hours.

Now, I know B.A.R.T. was not happy about that, and a lot of people are not happy about that, but it was in great contrast and very few people have reported on sort of the homegrown activist who now are almost reluctant to join in demonstrations because they're afraid they'll be hijacked.

BLITZER: Mayor Jean Quan of Oakland for us. Mayor, thanks very much for the update.

QUAN: Thank you very much. BLITZER: Still ahead, two potential presidential candidates for 2016

here in the United States, they're now pushing for effectively the same message, being president is a tough job. We're going to tell you why that's an important assessment. That's coming up.

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BLITZER: Let's go to presidential politics here in the United States and the race for 2016. This weekend, the former president, George W. Bush, spoke with our own Candy Crowley about one possible matchup.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN ANCHOR: You've often referred to Bill Clinton and you talk about his relationship with your father and how it developed and your mother as well and he's your brother from another mother. What does that make Hillary Clinton to the Bush family?

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: My sister-in-law.

CROWLEY: Interestingly. And do you think that your brother could run against your sister-in-law?

BUSH: Yes, and I think he'd beat her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: So we have potentially at least, if you believe the former president, could see a Bush versus Clinton race in 2016. Neither one of these candidates -- potential candidates, obviously, has yet declared. George W. Bush told our own Candy Crowley also that his brother hasn't asked for any advice about running.

Let's bring in our chief political analyst, Gloria Borger, who's just written an excellent column on cnn.com about Jeb Bush and Hillary Clinton. Among other things you write this, Gloria, "it turns out that political purgatory, even if temporary, can actually spark a genuine conversation with the public about what it takes to be president and what goes into deciding whether you want to run."

Give us a little sense of why this is so important?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you know, I think in public appearances recently, both of these candidates have been doing something that's shocking to those of us who cover politics, which is, they're actually thinking out loud. Politicians don't like to do it. Look at how much trouble Joe Biden gets in when he actually does think out loud.

And what they've been talking about are, Jeb Bush, for example, talking about how he could -- he has to think about whether he would want to make his family go through this process. He said, would it be tolerable for his family? He said, you also have to be able to lose a primary in order to win the general election. So it's clear that he's thinking about the fact that he's out of touch in many cases with the base of his party. Hillary Clinton herself is talking about the stress of the job and how

you need to surround yourself with people who can tell you the truth and who can make fun of you. But, you know, when she talks about stress, she honestly seems more honest to me than she does about -- when she talks about the tug of being a grandmother. That's not what she's thinking about. She is talking about whether she wants to do it.

And these two people are very well-positioned, Wolf, to know what it takes and how difficult it is to get there. And so they're actually telling the American public what they're telling their aides in private.

BLITZER: Because I've spoken to people close to both Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush -

BORGER: Yes.

BLITZER: And the sense I get is, she almost certainly is going to run.

BORGER: Yes.

BLITZER: She would, obviously, have the front-runner status for the Democratic presidential nomination and he probably is going to run as well.

BORGER: I think so too. I - you know, six months ago, I would have said to you, there's no way Jeb Bush is going to run. Now I believe it's more likely than unlikely that he's going to run. He's had very close advisers meeting with potential staff, not asking them to join the campaign, but effectively saying, if we were to do something, would you potentially think about joining us. They haven't gone out and asked for money, but a lot of funders are holding back. So I think, you know, you'd have to say, Wolf, at this point it looks like the odds are you might have that dynastic race going on between another Bush and another Clinton.

BLITZER: They have to decide fairly soon. There's like --

BORGER: Well, they do.

BLITZER: I mean there's going to be a Republican presidential debate as early as August 2015.

BORGER: Right.

BLITZER: That's not very far away.

BORGER: Well, first of all, Hillary actually has to announce early if she's not going to run because then all the other Democratic candidates - everything is frozen right now. If she were to decide that she were not going to run for some reason, then she needs to let everybody know now. Otherwise, I don't see really why it's in her interest to declare right away. She could wait till the spring.