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Wolf

Jordan Strikes at ISIS with Vengeance; How Will Air Strikes Affect U.S. Homeland Security; Kerry Talks Russian Role in Ukraine Conflict; More with Rep. Mike McCaul; Rep. Adam Schiff Asks Obama to Arm Ukraine; Ukraine Blames Russia for Escalation, Russia Denies Involvement; Survivor Talks Horrifying Plane Crash

Aired February 05, 2015 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting from Washington.

We're just getting in these dramatic pictures of the latest coalition air strikes against ISIS targets in Syria. I want to show the viewers the pictures. First time we're seeing some of the results.

Mike McCaul, chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, member of the Foreign Affairs Committee, is still with us. Philip Mudd, our analyst, is with us as well.

Mr. Chairman, these are Jordanian planes backed up by U.S. planes. They went into Syria. This is an area about 600 miles northeast of Damascus. You see some of the results.

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL, (R-TX), CHAIRMAN, HOUSE HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: It's about time. I think it sends a strong message. We now see the Sunni moderates in the Arab world now standing up against the Sunni extremists that have perpetrated this horrific killing of this Jordanian pilot. I think Jordan alone can't do this. We have to enlist this entire Gulf region. Again, going back to Turkey, I think Turkey is key in this.

BLITZER: I want to be precise, Phil. This is a U.S.-led coalition air strikes. We assume Jordanian planes were involved in this as well. We're trying to get final confirmation of that. You see these pictures. There's a message that people want to send, isn't there.

PHILIP MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: This is pretty clear. The first is the messaging piece here. The Jordanian king gets off the plane, he wants a visual immediately. This goes up on Jordanian TV and say, you wanted vengeance, you got it. The second piece will take weeks or months to work out, which is, if you want to understand the leadership, the command-and-control that's responsible for the murder of that Jordanian pilot, you cannot put that intelligence picture together in a couple days. To get to those folks, to get to real vengeance is going to take months or more.

BLITZER: To get to the leadership? MUDD: That's correct, yeah.

BLITZER: With these latest air strikes, we're told at least 10 ISIS militants were said to be killed in these air strikes. What you're saying, Congressman, is this is just really the beginning.

MCCAUL: I hope it is a turning point, as you mentioned earlier in the broadcast. I hope this will galvanize the Arab world to stand up against the extremism within the region. I do think the lighting of this power on fire, this is a vengeance I hope this screens globally, viral over the Internet, just like the Jordanian pilot being lit up in flames.

BLITZER: You're saying the messaging part, Phil, is really, really significant.

MUDD: That's right. But there's the other half of this that we have to be conscious of, looking at it from Washington. That is you're having leadership in places like the United Arab Emirates and Jordan, who are aligned with the United States, not all their populations favor this. They've got to tow this line between saying, yeah, we want to fight ISIS. We saw this in the video ISIS put out when they murdered the pilot, they were trying to show the alignment between the king of Jordan and the United States. They've also got to be careful of --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Look at this picture. You see the fighter there. You say they want revenge. In the Arab world -- the pilot was burned. There was a fire. Now they're releasing, deliberately releasing images showing a huge fire there. That has significance, doesn't it?

MUDD: I think it does. It you look at the justification ISIS tried to give for burning that pilot, they are really twisting themselves to come up with a religious justification for everything, from enslaving an 8-year-old girl to burning a pilot to death. Yeah, people will see this in light of what happened to that pilot. But it is not as if this is tit for tat. People do not understand why ISIS can validate murdering a pilot like that.

BLITZER: How does this impact U.S. Homeland Security, right now? When these images go out -- ISIS is very good in social media, as you well know. They have recruitment propaganda that clearly works. You say thousands of recruits are coming in from all over, not just the Middle East, but from Europe, even the United States. These air strikes, how does that impact U.S. Homeland Security?

MCCAUL: They have a sophisticated social media platform. I do think the movies, like a Hollywood movie being broadcast across the world, I think these images will probably enflame the radicalized world even more so. You'll see more recruits coming in to fight the fight. At the end of the day, these Sunni moderate nations need to stand up against this form of extremism in their region to eliminate the threat where it exists there. That will protect the homeland more than anything. BLITZER: You think that's going to happen?

MUDD: I think that's right. I think that will take time, though. The problem here though is time. We're looking at this saying can we turn the tide in a week or two with air strikes from Jordan. I would look at this in terms of a decade or two, not a week or two.

BLITZER: Guys, Michael McCaul, Mr. Chairman, thanks very much, to both of you, for coming in.

We're going to switch gears when we come back. Dramatic developments happening in Ukraine right now. The prospect of American military equipment making its way to the Ukrainian military. I'll speak to the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Adam Schiff. He's very passionate about what's going on. He's asking the president of the United States, together with a lot of other members, to go ahead and arm the Ukrainians. Stand by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: High-level leaders in Ukraine today underlining the dire situation there. Pro-Russian separatist forces are gaining ground in eastern Ukraine at the expense of civilians. More than 225 have died in the past few months during the rebel offensive. Those rebels, of course, are backed by Russia.

The secretary of state, John Kerry, is in Kiev meeting with Ukrainian leaders, including the president and the prime minister today. He had this to say about the conflict and Russia's role.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: Russia and the separatists are seizing more territory, terrorizing more citizens and refusing to participate in serious negotiations. Let there be no doubt about who is blocking the prospect of peace here. And yet, Russia, with impunity, seemingly, has acted to cross that border at will with weapons, with personnel, with the instruments of death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel, they also met with Ukrainian leaders today.

Joining us now, California Democratic Congressman Adam Schiff. He's the ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee.

You're circulating a letter among your colleagues. You want the United States right now to not only provide humanitarian aid to Ukraine, but also start providing serious weapons, right?

REP. ADAM SCHIFF, (D), CALIFORNIA: I do. I think it's overdue. It's plain that Putin has little interest in the negotiations. There was a settlement reached in the fall that Putin has ignored, sending troops and hardware, military equipment, tanks, to change the facts on the ground in Ukraine. And I think the only way to bring him to the negotiating table is to show strength. And I think we ought to provide that assistance, that military assistance to Ukraine as soon as possible.

BLITZER: And you're specifically talking about, what, armored vehicles, anti-tank missiles, maybe anti-aircraft missiles, stuff like that, right?

SCHIFF: Anti-tank missiles, radar systems so they can identify where the artillery is coming from, communications equipment so that the Ukrainian forces can talk to each other without the Russians listening in. I think it's going to be necessary to raise the cost of these Russian forces and all the equipment flowing across the border. I think that's really the only thing that deters Putin is a show of strength. We have tried time and time again to provide off ramps. He showed no interest in that. And instead, they want to create a mini state within Ukraine. I think we need to come to Ukraine's assistance.

BLITZER: I remember, Congressman, when the Ukrainian President Poroshenko was here in Washington back in September. He appealed for these kinds of weapons. Why hasn't the Obama administration approved them yet?

SCHIFF: Well, I supported that call back then when he came. I think the administration has been reluctant to provoke Putin, to inhibit the chance for a peaceful resolution. But at a certain point, when you offer that opportunity for those off ramps and the other side not only made no efforts to deescalate, but on the contrary, further aggravated the situation with new weapons, new material, new tanks, you have to say, OK, they're not interested in this. I think the point is now well overdue for us to provide this military assistance and ensure the Russians and these rebel forces don't gain the benefit of territory from ignoring the peace agreement they entered into.

BLITZER: I'm told this issue of whether to arm the Ukrainian military will be at the top of the agenda when the German chancellor meets with President Obama here in Washington on Monday. Do you get a sense that they are going to both jointly approve a major shift and start sending weapons to Ukraine?

SCHIFF: I don't know if they will jointly approve that. I think we're still probably well ahead of where the Germans and the French are. Frankly, I think our commitment to arming Ukraine will assist the French and Germans as they go to meet with Putin and try to negotiate a cease in the hostilities. The fact that we are going to have Ukraine's back militarily I think enhances the bargaining position of France and Germany. But there is a force within Europe that is even opposed to the sanctions, the financial sanctions, so I'd be surprised to see them embrace military support.

BLITZER: As you know, there's pressure on the president to even go further and tighten the sanctions against Russia. There already are coalition sanctions. But they don't seem to have done much as far as Putin is concerned, have they?

SCHIFF: Well, they haven't curbed his behavior, that's true. They have had the intended effect on the Russian economy, which is in tatters. But Putin seems determined not withstanding the economic damage to go forward. I think we need to raise the military cost to Russia to go forward and see if that will deter him. One thing is clear at this point, Wolf, and that is economic sanctions alone aren't going to change Putin's behavior.

BLITZER: Adam Schiff, the ranking Democrat of the House Intelligence Committee.

Congressman, thanks for joining us.

SCHIFF: Thanks, Wolf.

BLITZER: When we come back, we're going to go live to Kiev. Jim Sciutto, our chief national security correspondent, is on the ground there. He's traveling with the secretary of state. You'll get the very latest from the scene when we come back.

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BLITZER: The Obama administration's message is clear, diplomacy before military action in Ukraine.

Our chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, is in Kiev. He's traveling with Secretary of State John Kerry.

Kerry mincing no words today. Jim, you were there at that news conference. He's putting all the blame directly on Russia.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No question. Mincing no words. Calling them out in no uncertain terms and in unison with Ukrainian leaders, the President Poroshenko and Prime Minister Yatsenyuk. At their press conference today, I asked them, because our CNN colleagues in Moscow reached out to the Kremlin for their reaction to that charge, the Kremlin saying there are no Russian troops here, there are no Russian tanks. A real powerful moment, when I brought that up with Secretary Kerry and the Ukrainian prime minister. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: My CNN colleagues in Moscow reached out to the Kremlin for reaction to your statement alongside President Poroshenko earlier today. The Kremlin spokesman took particular issue with your saying there are Russian forces inside Ukraine escalating the situation. He said there are no Russian tanks or army in Ukraine, these accusations are not true. I wonder if you could react to that and answer if you believe the U.S. and the West could have a reasonable negotiation with a counterpart who has a diametrically opposed view of even the facts on the ground.

KERRY: Mr. Prime minister, is it true that as the Kremlin just said today there are no Russians on the ground in --

(LAUGHTER) ARSENIY YATSENYUK, UKRAINIAN PRIME MINISTER: It seems to me that the

only country who strongly deny clear military Russian boots on the ground is Russian Federation and personally President Putin. If they need, I can give them mine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: I'll tell you, Wolf, I could practically feel his blood boiling in answer to that question. But I also asked the prime minister, if he was disjointed that Secretary Kerry, the French President Hollande, the German Chancellor Merkel, who are coming -- just arrived tonight -- that was he disappointed they didn't bring new round of sanctions, for instance, against Russia or military aid to those Ukrainian forces who are getting beaten back. He didn't say disappointed but he did say, in no uncertain terms, that all they're trying to do is defend their territory and, Wolf, that they need military help to do it. That's help, so far, they're not getting.

BLITZER: I know a U.S. official on the flight that you had described the situation as dire. Is that right?

SCIUTTO: Dire and grave escalation on the ground. Wolf, in particular, in the last several days -- because as you know, the conflict going on is for months. But in the last several days, civilian deaths weigh up. New assaults on cities further to the West of Ukraine and driven by what U.S. officials describe as a major influx of heavy Russian weapons, Russian troops, Russian commanders commanding units on the ground. Secretary Kerry saying they have proof of it, intercepted phone calls, satellite images, and calling the Russians out. The question is, will a new peace effort, as Hollande and Merkel go to Moscow tomorrow, will it make a difference? It hasn't so far. A very dire situation on the ground.

BLITZER: Jim Sciutto is on the ground in Kiev. We'll stay in close touch with you.

He'll have more later in "The Situation Room."

Up next, a survivor of the deadly plane crash in Taiwan speaks out from his hospital bed recounting the chaotic, the terrifying moments about the plane before that plane went down.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: We could soon have more answers about what caused the deadly plane crash in Taiwan. It barely missed buildings as it fell from the sky with 58 on board. A car dash video, released by our affiliate, TBBS, captured the terrifying scene as the plane hits a taxi, clips a bridge and plummets into a river. We learned today that the analysis of the flight data recorders is now complete and officials say they'll share information with the investigators tomorrow. There are 32 confirmed deaths, including the pilot and co-pilot. 11 remain missing. Divers have set up a net downstream to catch bodies that may have been swept away by the currents.

Meantime, an audio recording by the taxi driver, who was hit by the plane on that bridge, and an emergency dispatcher has been released. The call was placed just moments after the crash. The emergency operator can't believe what he's hearing. Listen to this.

(BEGIN AUDIO FEED)

DISPATCHER: Hello?

TAXI DRIVER: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

DISPATCHER: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

TAXI DRIVER: (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Amazingly, the driver and passenger were not seriously hurt.

Let's bring in our aviation analyst, Miles O'Brien, who has been taking look at the video, studying it, the audio.

We have some hints about what happened but we don't know yet?

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: We got the May Day from the plane flame out, which means lost engine.

BLITZER: Basically, the pilot says May Day, May Day, engine flameout.

O'BRIEN: Engine flameout. And everything we see from that video indicates the left side, left engine was not generating power and, perhaps worse, the propeller was wind-milling, which is not good. You want to have that edge on so it doesn't create drag. They were having difficulty recovering from the engine-out scenario. There's a lot to look at.

BLITZER: I want to play a clip from one of the survivors that described how he managed to survive by not having his seat belt on. Listen to.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED PLANE CRASH SURVIVOR (through translation): Shortly after takeoff, I felt something wasn't right. Something was wrong with the engine. I always take this flight. I told the girl beside me to release her seat belt, hold the chair in front and cover her head with clothes. Not long after, the plane went down.

BLITZER: That's counter from what we hear from safety experts about plane safety. Keep the seat belt snug, get in the crouch position and try to survive. But he immediately took off his seat belt and he survived.

O'BRIEN: Proof is in the pudding. This is an important point for all of us that fly. The first minute and last minute of every flight, we should be paying attention a lot better. People say where should I sit? It's not where you put your back side. It's put your head in the game. Think about what's happening. He was paying attention. The engine didn't seem right, and he got ready. All of us -- if you're going down a run way and the plane is going more than 30 seconds, for example, start paying attention. That means there might be something wrong. You may want to get ready.

BLITZER: Conventional wisdom is you're safer in the rear of an aircraft as opposed to up front. Is that right?

O'BRIEN: I've seen studies that lead in that direction. My thinking is the most important thing is be within close pro proximity to an exit row. More importantly, know where that exit row is wherever you are. Three rows back or forward? Have a flashlight maybe. Be aware. Sort of think of yourself as a member of the crew, especially in the critical periods of time, takeoff and landing.

BLITZER: The Taiwanese Aeronautics Administration, they say this plane was relatively new and safe.

O'BRIEN: New, and there's no reason to believe -- a new plane should take care of things. We need to know about the maintenance. Very important. Had it just come out of maintenance? There were reports to that effect. Any time -- the first flight after maintenance can be statistically a more dangerous flight.

BLITZER: We'll get more information obviously in the coming hours. We'll share with viewers.

Thanks, Miles, for coming in.

That's it for me. Thanks for watching. I'll be back at 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room."

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is next.

For our viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.