Return to Transcripts main page

Wolf

Details on Failed Effort to Save Kayla Mueller; Questions on U.S. Handling Hostage Situations; ISIS Affiliate Video Shows It Beheaded 10 Men; Peace Talks as Fighting Continues in Ukraine.

Aired February 11, 2015 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting from Washington.

We're learning new information about Kayla Mueller's time in ISIS captivity. And we're taking a closer look at the unsuccessful attempts to rescue her. Intelligence suggests that Mueller may have been paired with a male ISIS fighter while she was being held hostage, according to U.S. intelligence and government officials. One official suggests she may have been given, yes, given to the ISIS fighter as some sort of bribe.

As for the attempts to rescue Mueller, President Obama rejects the idea that the U.S. government didn't do enough. Here's what he said in an interview with "Buzzfeed."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yeah, I deployed an entire operation at significant risk to rescue not only her but the other individuals that had been held and probably missed them by a day or two, precisely because we had that commitment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's bring in CNN's Brian Todd. He's up on Capitol Hill.

What more do we know more about the rescue operations that the president may have been referring to?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, we're getting new information about some extraordinary things and extraordinary operations that took place in various efforts to try to rescue Kayla Mueller from ISIS captivity. You mentioned the raid and President Obama talked about that raid on July 4th of last year when they went in, Delta Force and Navy commandos went into an abandoned oil refinery near the Syrian city of Raqqa. The hostages, including Kayla Mueller, had apparently been moved. There was a long firefight there. Very dangerous mission

In addition, I just spoke to Congressman Paul Gosar, a Republican from Arizona, who represents the district around Prescott, Arizona, where Kayla Mueller's family is from. He knows the family and has been in contact with them since she was taken captive. He relayed incredible stories to me. One of them, he says he got this information from sources, saying there was a man at some point after Kayla Mueller was taken captive, and she was being held in some kind of an ISIS camp somewhere, probably in Syria. There was a man who came into the camp posing as her husband, asking for them to hand her over to him. But apparently, Kayla Mueller was not in on this ruse and told her captors, I'm not married. And so that effort failed. We don't know what exactly happened to the man. The congressman said it could have been one of the men captured with Kayla Mueller when she was captured in Aleppo in August of 2013. When she was captured, there was another aid worker captured with her and then he was released. Congressman Gosar says he's not certain but says he thinks it could have been that man who was released, who took an incredible risk to go back into an ISIS camp, pose as her husband and try to get her out. That was one instance we're learning about now.

Another, Congressman Gosar's own staff members have taken risks. His chief of staff was on a trip to Turkey and they decided that in an effort to try to win Kayla Mueller's release, they were going to exhaust all efforts. He sent his chief of staff to a refugee camp just across the Turkish border from Kobani, a very dangerous place, just to get any information, find out anything he could about Kayla Mueller's whereabouts. That mission also failed. The chief of staff was not able to get that information but Congressman Gosar says just sending him in there was worrisome because it was a very dangerous place with a lot of terrorists around.

So you're talking about just various efforts that people have made. This congressman and his staffer, other people who have taken incredible risks to try to get Kayla Mueller to be released from ISIS captivity. Of course, we now know that none of them worked. But they were valiant efforts. And even with that, the congressman, just as I left him a moment ago, said, "You know what, I failed, I failed to get her out." John McCain has said the same thing. He led exhaustive efforts to try to win her release. They all say that we failed her. And I said, these were incredibly risky missions. But he said, we didn't get here and that's the bottom line. Very dramatic stuff in the efforts to win Kayla Mueller's release -- Wolf?

BLITZER: Unfortunately, they did not succeed and she is now dead.

Brian, thanks very much.

I know Brian's working this story and will have more in "The Situation Room" later today.

Kayla Mueller wasn't the last American missing in Syria. The FBI's put out posters for two missing American journalists in Syria. Kevin Patrick Dawes, freelance photographer, went to Syria in August of 2012. The last known contact with Dawes was in October of that year. Austin Bennett Tice was working as a freelance journalist and photographer. The FBI says he was kidnapped in Damascus, Syria, on August 13th, 2012. Several journalists from other countries have also been reported missing in Syria.

Just ahead, we'll talk with our analysts about how the United States handles these kinds of hostage situations. We're also getting your take on an alarming number. More than 20,000 foreign fighters may have joined ISIS on the battlefields in Syria and Iraq.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: The death of the American aid worker, Kayla Mueller, raising serious questions about how the United States handles hostage situations. We just spoke about that with Brian Todd, the unsuccessful attempts to try to rescue her. Let's get some additional perspective now from our panel. Joining us, our national security analysts, Peter Bergen; Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, our military analyst, retired Army commanding general; and Bob Baer, intelligence and security analyst, former CIA operative.

General Hertling, how risky are these rescue operations from a military standpoint?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Always tough, Wolf, always tough. First of all, the intelligence has to be perfect, the timing has to be perfect, the intelligence has to be updated even while the operation is ongoing. The commandos, Special Operations Forces have to continue to receive intelligence even while the mission is going on before they hit the target. So you always have difficulty in executing these things and it's always very, very dangerous for the commandos who are doing it as well.

BLITZER: How good, Bob Baer, is U.S. intelligence on this kind of issue right now in Syria and Iraq?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Not very good. In fact, it's lousy. When I used to work with Delta Force many years ago, they had a requirement. They didn't trust any intelligence. And they needed a U.S. soldier with eyes on the target. In a case like ISIS, you can't do that, can't get people in there. And the military doesn't like these things when the intelligence isn't 100 percent right. You almost have to see the hostage, not just see what the defenses are before you go in. People remembered Desert One. They went into Iran and it was a catastrophe for the military because they had the crashes in the desert and the rest of it. So it's always risky. It's even riskier in a place like Syria where you can't put people on the ground.

BLITZER: The director, Peter, of the National Counterterrorism Center here in Washington testified up on Capitol Hill today about the growing number of foreign fighters joining ISIS in Iraq and Syria. He said more than 20,000 fighters from 90 countries, 3,400 from Western countries, 150 from the United States have joined ISIS on the battlefield. You buy these numbers?

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: I do. They're not surprising. The head of Special Operations Command last month gave the estimate of 19,000 foreign fighters. We've seen U.S. officials saying about 1,000 foreign fighters come in every month. So just do the math. A month later, we're at 20,000. Five months from now, we'll be at 25,000. Unfortunately, the campaign against ISIS, if you take the numbers, about 1,000 ISIS fighters are being killed every month. But it's a wash because you're getting 1,000 foreign fighters being recruited every month and coming in. So in terms of -- the head of CENTCOM, General Lloyd Austin, has said ISIS is suffering a manpower issue, which I'm sure is true. Unfortunately, they're also still recruiting at a pretty fast clip here.

BLITZER: They certainly seem to be.

What do you make of those numbers, General?

HERTLING: Wolf, I'm always suspect, first of all, of numbers that end in a lot of zeros. I would beg to have the intelligence analysts show me where they were receiving those numbers since they're so rounded off.

But they are concerning. And it shows what is going on in the recruiting efforts of ISIS. I think that is the more important thing. How are they getting these kinds of numbers, even if they are large like this? The recruiting effort is very different. In the past, al Qaeda would recruit by saying, come join the jihad, fight the occupiers. Today, they're talking to others saying, come join our lifestyle, we will promise you all these things, pay, fighting the infidels, sex life, all the things associated with a bucolic lifestyle. And we have to counter that by indicating how terrible this organization is. That's the first thing.

But also part of this math is -- we talked about this a few weeks ago -- how many of these individuals that are coming are not well-trained or just jihadis, and they're going to be killed very rapidly on the battlefield? So that math isn't included with the numbers coming in versus the number that are killed on the battlefield.

BLITZER: But they're successful at doing, Bob Baer, their social media. They have a sophisticated propaganda machine.

BAER: They do, Wolf. I talked to somebody who just came back from the front, the Kurdish front in Iraq. What has struck the Kurds as surprising is they've been intercepting ISIS on low-power communications. And they're hearing a lot of Russian, they're hearing a lot of Uzbekistan, central Asian languages, which tells them they're getting a lot of people from different parts of the world. Intercepting these communications, they don't understand what's going on, on the radio, and ISIS does it for that reason, so they can't be intercepted. These great numbers of people coming in -- this is an epidemic of ideology, of radicalism, that frankly I've never seen ever before. And it's difficult to get your mind around.

BLITZER: Certainly is.

Bob Baer, Mark Hertling, Peter Bergen, guys, thanks very much.

10 men beheaded in Egypt by a group claiming to be affiliated with ISIS. Is this proof ISIS is expanding its reach? We'll go to Cairo for a live report. That's coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BLITZER: The terror group ISIS is doing everything it can to spread its ideology of Islamist extremism and hate to other countries and it's gaining a strong foothold in parts of Egypt right now. Egypt a close ally of the United States. It attracts millions of Western tourists every year.

Let's go to Cairo. We're learning more about a new video purportedly showing the beheading of 10 men in Egypt, an ISIS affiliate is claiming responsibility.

Ian Lee, what are you hearing? You're on the scene there for us. About an ISIS threat now emerging in Egypt?

IAN LEE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, they call themselves, Walisasina (ph), or the state of Sinai, a reference to the ISIS caliphate. Like ISIS in Iraq and Syria, their tactics are brutal. As you said, they beheaded people who they accuse of spying for Egypt or Israel. They have also killed hundreds of policemen and soldiers. And they carried out two massive attacks that killed over 30 people and each time in the northern part of the Sinai. But unlike ISIS in Iraq and Syria, they almost exclusive target security personnel, although civilians have been killed in the crossfire. Their numbers are unknown, but estimates put it in the hundreds.

The real key to success is they're winning the hearts and minds of the local population in the northern part of Sinai, where the military has gone in heavy handedly, been accused of rights abuses and destroyed homes. Militants have compensated these people for their losses, which has stirred animosity toward the government here in Cairo -- Wolf?

BLITZER: I assume there's been a major crackdown by the Egyptian military, the President El-Sisi, they are going after these guys. And as you say, most of these attacks are in the northern part of Sinai.

LEE: That's right. We have seen attacks in other parts of Egypt as well. Their tactics do go directly toward the security force. We haven't seen them expand to civilian targets, tourist targets. The thinking behind that is they would lose more popularity or any popularity that they might have if they do target civilians, target tourists sites. There's a lot of animosity toward the central government after ousting former President Mohammad Morsey. But if they go after tourism, that will hit the pocketbooks of millions of Egyptians and they could lose that support. You go to Sinai, you break it up into the north and the south. In the south, you have Bedouins there, too, but they don't support it because they get money from tourism and also they don't want this crackdown to spread into their territory -- Wolf?

BLITZER: Ian Lee will stay on top of this development in Egypt.

Ian Lee, thanks very much.

Up next, a last resort for Ukraine. As peace talks begin, Ukrainian president says the region could soon spiral out of control. We'll go live to Ukraine. That's coming up. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Let's go to Ukraine. Peace talks involving the leaders in Ukraine, Russia, Germany, France, they are under way. The talks come as fighting intensifies in eastern Ukraine between pro-Russian separatists and the Ukrainian military. Before leaving for the talks, Ukraine President Petro Poroshenko hinted martial law could be next, saying the region could spiral out of control if no agreements are reached at the Minsk talks happening today in Belarus. On the table is a draw back of heavy weapons and artillery and a demilitarized zone across much of eastern Ukraine.

Let's go there. Our senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, is in Donetsk, which has been bombarded brutally in recent weeks and months.

Nick, set the scene. The leaders may be talking in Minsk but the fighting continues where you are.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it started badly today when a stray shell slammed into a bus stop here in central Donetsk around morning rush hour, frankly, killing four. We went to the scene and saw how a driver had been hit in his seat in that bus there. They continue violently. We traveled near the source of the artillery shelling in that direction. A very violent sound across the farmland. And as we came back to Donetsk, we heard incoming and outgoing fire repeatedly here just again now in the last hour or so.

So a little backdrop. We're hearing that a key town, while Ukrainians claim they got a supply convoy through to it, whereas separatists claim they circle it. There was a chance to take police headquarters by the separatists today by the separatists. It was repulsed. A senior police commander killed. Nothing like a backdrop for peace here at all. And frankly, unless we see a solid cease-fire coming out of Minsk, it could get worse. That's what Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is referring to when he says it's out of control. The separatists are clear they want to take much more territory. You can hear in the background there what sounds like impact explosions here in Donetsk. It could get messy quickly -- Wolf?

BLITZER: What does he mean, Poroshenko, by martial law he would impose if there is no deal in Minsk?

PATON WALSH: I think what he's suggesting is there would be a significant tightening of security issues across the country. The major fear being they've got a military cordon around these separatist areas as best as they can. They are concerned about acts of sabotage maybe. We have seen random explosions in Odessa and to the north. Martial law would be intended to stop this separatism spreading elsewhere in Ukraine -- Wolf?

BLITZER: All right, Nick Paton Walsh, be careful over there. We'll check back with you.

That's it for me. Thanks very much for watching. I'll be back during our 3:00 p.m. eastern hour for our live special coverage. President Obama set to make a statement on his request to Congress to authorize the use of military force against ISIS in Iraq and Syria.

For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is coming up next.

For our viewers in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, there. I'm Brooke Baldwin. You're watching CNN.

President Obama --