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New Developments in Paris Terror Attacks Investigation; Ukraine Cease-Fire is Crumbling; Debate over Paying for Hostages Heats Up; Judge Puts Obama's Immigration Reform on Hold

Aired February 17, 2015 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back to our viewers in the United States and around the world. I'm Wolf Blitzer, reporting from Washington.

Breaking this hour, we have new developments in the investigation into last month's Paris terror attacks. France's leading newspaper, "Le Monde," quoting NRTS, who say the attacks, one at the office of the "Charlie Hebdo" magazine and the second at a Jewish kosher supermarket, were coordinated.

Joining us now on the phone is our law enforcement analyst, a former FBI assistant director, Tom Fuentes.

Tom, significant development that is "Le Monde" is now reporting 13 separate cell phones were used by the terrorists involved in these two attacks, one on a Wednesday at the magazine, one on Friday at that kosher supermarket. Your reaction to this new information?

TOM FUENTES, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (voice-over): I would have expected that the diligent investigation on the part of the French would eventually find this kind of information if it existed. They would do an exhaustive research of the French phone companies trying to look at phone numbers and phone accounts that could be attributed to either one. And in this case, they determined that Amedy Coulibaly obtained 13 phone numbers and the investigation discovered that it seemed like they were dedicated for use for these attacks. They had six text messages that were exchanged between Coulibaly and Sharif Kouachi. And it appears they met the night before the "Charlie Hebdo" attack and exchanged a text message in the morning one hour before the attack.

BLITZER: So obviously -- we had known the wives had exchanged some phone conversations, supposedly, although there was a lot of suspicion their cell phones were being used by their respective husbands, the Kouachis and the Coulibalys. But in any case, it seems a lot more coordinated now not necessarily simply some sort of inspired lone Wolf, right?

FUENTES: No, that's true. It looks much more coordinated, especially the fact that they would have met in person near Kouachi's -- in the suburb that he lives in the night before the attack -- or actually a few hours -- 12 hours before the attack. So the fact that they would have actually met in person and then the next morning, one final exchange, text message exchanged between them. And then an hour later, 11:30 a.m., the attack begins at "Charlie Hebdo." it certainly appears the two of them conspired together to make sure the attack plans were coordinated for both locations, the other location being the kosher market two days later.

BLITZER: What does it say to you that the targets of the two attacks in Copenhagen over the weekend were very similar to the two attacks in Paris, one going after a magazine, if you will, trying to promote free speech, a second going after a synagogue in Copenhagen?

FUENTES: It does. It shows that the original attack or the main target is going to be the magazines or the cartoonists themselves that have generated the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad. But while they're at it and while they're roaming around on the streets with guns, go ahead and attack synagogues or Jewish markets or other Jewish locations. And I think that's what you have obviously in both locations. And in the case in Copenhagen, the attack on the synagogue occurs ten hours after the original attack going after Lars Vilks and the other members of that meeting. Fortunately for the synagogue they had -- after hearing about the attack earlier in the day, they had requested police protection. They asked for more security at the event they were holding, a bar mitzvah at this location. And the police did put a couple of extra security people out there. And then you had when the shooter showed up, the police were able to shoot at him and keep him from overtaking the place and killing more people. Unfortunately he was able to kill a person at each location, the original meeting location and ten hours later, someone -- an innocent civilian at the synagogue and wound five police officers in total before the third encounter with the police where they were able to finally kill him.

BLITZER: Yeah. And so the lessons from both Paris and Copenhagen are now being learned by a law enforcement national security personnel, not only in Europe, but I would suspect here in the United States as well.

Tom Fuentes, we'll have much more on this story coming up throughout the day here on CNN.

Another story we're following, the cease-fire in eastern Ukraine. Is it now crumbling? We'll go live to Donetsk. Our Nick Paton Walsh is on the ground there. We'll show you the latest of what's going on.

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BLITZER: Eastern Ukraine certainly looks like that cease-fire may be in deep trouble, may actually be crumbling. Look at this spectacular video of an attack on a pipeline as fighting erupts once more between rebel groups and Ukrainian forces. Authorities say at least 10 soldiers have been killed since the cease-fire went into effect on Saturday.

Our senior international correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, is in Donetsk, eastern Ukraine, right in the middle of all of this. Nick, we just saw that video of that pipeline going up in flames.

What's the significance of that attack? And what are you seeing on the ground right now?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That shows there is significant shelling on the road. We've been there ourselves. That's a gas pipeline to the left of that particular road exploding into flame. The point being, heavy weapons are being used to the north of that town. It is in circles by the separatists. There are stories about how the fight is continuing inside that town. I say a fight. Supposed too of have been a cease-fire. It's a cease- fire with the exception of one city, if the contingent of Ukrainian troops are coming under that kind of fire, you have to doubt whether this is a truce. We are hearing the Ukrainian side of the story in the last few minutes. They accept they have lost part of control of the city, they accept some of their troops have been captured. They've been under sustained fire in the bouts of during much of the day and I'm afraid a lot of that information echoes what the separatists have said. They claim they have 80 percent of the area and that potentially they have hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers taken prisoner during this offensive. It is going to be a bloody situation unless somehow politically a solution comes forwards. Bear in mind, this is one of the bloodiest episodes in the war so far and playing out under an alleged cease-fire that nobody's called yet.

BLITZER: The separatist group says they held a news conference a little while ago. What was their main point?

PATON WALSH: The main point in that was they appealed to Ukrainian troops to give themselves up. They consistently suggest that those prisoners of war were treated well, looked after. They will not be allowed to be in a situation where they say the Ukrainian will give themselves up -- this is propaganda war going on here. It's been happening for months, no-holds-barred when it comes to that. Very hard to work out what's really happening. But we are getting real clarity. It's changing hands. Ukrainian soldiers are being captured and many are dying, too. It's an extraordinarily hellish place to be stuck in right now.

BLITZER: Certainly is.

Nick, be careful over there.

Nick Paton Walsh, on the ground for us in eastern Ukraine.

So should countries pay ransom to get hostages back from ISIS or other terror groups? The death of the American aid worker, Kayla Mueller, put the issue back in the spotlight. We'll tell you why the U.S. and at least some of its allies seriously disagree on this issue.

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BLITZER: The death of U.S. hostages at the hands of ISIS militants has raised serious questions about ransom demands and whether to pay for them. Following the death of the U.S. aid worker, Kayla Mueller, President Obama said the U.S. uses all the research it can to get the hostages released, but --

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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The one thing that we have held to is a policy of not paying ransoms with an organization like ISIL. And the reason is, is that once we start doing that, not only are we financing their slaughter of innocent people and strengthening their organization, but we're actually making Americans even greater targets for future kidnappings.

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BLITZER: Our chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, is here with me.

Has this U.S. policy caused some friction with some key allies who are willing from time to time to pay ransom?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: It has. The U.S. is in lockstep with countries such as the U.K. I spoke with a British diplomat last week who said, like the U.S., the U.K. considers paying ransom terror financing as if you or I were writing a check to ISIS to promote them, which is a crime in this country. And this British diplomat said to me the U.K. has, in her words, very frank discussions with close European allies who do pay ransoms. You have the U.S. and European allies flying bombing missions against ISIS in the Middle East but they have a big difference on this issue. It's one that, within that family of close NATO allies, that they disagree very sharply in private.

BLITZER: What do they say when the U.S. points out, you pay ransom, that's going to encourage more citizens to be taken because they want the cash?

SCIUTTO: What they say is the heads of state have a personal obligation to bring these people home alive. So do American and British heads of state. But they say they have a legal obligation to protect the lives of their citizens to any obligation to obey terror financing laws. You can understand that. Arguably, you have a disagreement within our own country when we look at the experience of James Foley and his parents. His mother said publicly when they were talking about the possibility of paying ransom to save their sons live they were told if you do you might be prosecuted. That's the position. To the credit of the U.S. and the U.K., they stick to that position but there's some inside the country that question that. But on the flip side, as the president said there, it's a U.S. position and British position but you encourage more, you encourage more hostages to be taken.

BLITZER: I've heard from French and other European countries that are willing to make an exchange to pay ransom for their hostages that the U.S. is being hypocritical because they was willing to release five Taliban prisoners from Guantanamo Bay in exchange for getting Sergeant Bergdahl released from captivity.

SCIUTTO: You can go back to the '80s, the deal with Iran, with arms to release hostages held at Lebanon. So our history is not clean either. But you can say it's more consistent in recent years than others have been.

Here's the pressure, I'm told, that does had added pressure now. That's the time frame, the British diplomat was describing to me, was collapsing. In the '80s, you'd have several years of the hostages being held. Time to negotiate, find the way forward. The time line was as short as 24 hours. A Frenchman held in North Africa was killed 24 hours after the official demand was made. That leaves a lot less leeway to find a way out, short of a rescue attempt or paying money.

BLITZER: You'll have a lot more on this coming up later in "The Situation Room" as well.

SCIUTTO: I will.

BLITZER: Jim Sciutto, thanks for that reporting.

Up next, a set back for immigration reform here in the United States. President Obama's executive orders now being put on hold as a Texas judge sides with more than two dozen states. We'll get a closer look at what's next for the White House strategy.

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BLITZER: Let's get to the huge debate here in the United States over immigration reform. A district court in Texas has dealt a major blow to President Obama's immigration reform plans. The court is blocking provisions of the executive order the president unveiled in November. Republicans in Congress had vowed to stop the actions. The original lawsuit was brought on behalf of these 26 states. You see them there. 24 of which have Republican governors. One of the provisions of the executive action was set to go into effect this week. It would have expanded the program that allows undocumented immigrants here in the United States, who are born in the United States, to legally work and remain in the country.

We're getting conflicted reports, seemingly conflicting reports on the administrations response. Moments ago, the attorney general of the United States, Eric Holder, said the Justice Department is now considering whether to pursue a stay on the judge's order. Earlier, the Department of Homeland Security said it would comply with this court injunction.

Let's talk about where all of this goes. Joining us is our Supreme Court reporter, Ariane de Vogue.

You have been studying the documents, the legal parts of this. This is a major set back for the legal position of the president of the United States.

ARIANE DE VOGUE, CNN SUPREME COURT CORRESPONDENT: It is but the ruling wasn't on the constitutional issue. It wasn't a big ruling. The judge said two things. He said Texas has the right to bring this case. That's called standing. And it was important because a lot of the immigration groups said Texas won't be able to show it had an injury. This judge said that it could and it did. And the second thing the judge said is, look, the administration didn't proceed in the way that it should. It should have given more notice and it violated that aspect. So not a big constitutional issue, but the impact is this nationwide preliminary injunction that blocks two of these programs are going into effect.

BLITZER: It could affect four or five million illegal immigrants in the United States who, over these past several months, were being told, "Don't worry. You'll be allowed to stay. You have kids who are citizens. You have kids that were allowed to stay and we'll take care of you." Now all of a sudden, that's up in the air.

DE VOGUE: The immigration group said last night, to these immigrants, who were hoping to take advantage of one of these programs set to start tomorrow, "Get your papers together." But in fact, they won't be able to go forward because this judge has issued this preliminary injunction.

BLITZER: Now let's go to a court of appeals. It could wind up before the United States Supreme Court, what the president has done.

DE VOGUE: Well, that's true. And we haven't gotten to the trial or the merit. This was a preliminary injunction. But that issue -- the White House said this morning that DOJ plans to appeal with the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals and that would probably be the next step. Again, the administration said we had broad authority to do this. And they said this lower court got it wrong. But that's where we are now.

BLITZER: The judge in Texas that ruled against the president of the United States, he cited, correct me if I'm wrong, in his arguments, all the times the president said 20 or 25 times over the years, he didn't have the legal authority to take this kind of action to protect these illegal immigrants.

DE VOGUE: Well, he certainly -- without making a broad ruling, he did make hints and immigration lawyers were worried about this judge. He was appointed to the bench by George W. Bush and they were concerned a ruling like this might come out.

BLITZER: What about the Court of Appeals with the Fifth Circuit, in New Orleans, right? How does that shape up?

DE VOGUE: Well, it depends on the panel. And it's based in Texas, so that tells you something. Texas was the leader here with the 26 other states that followed it. And the attorney general there was thrilled with this decision that came out late last night.

BLITZER: Ariane de Vogue, you've only been with us for a few days. Welcome to CNN.

DE VOGUE: Thank you so much.

BLITZER: Good to have you here on our team.

That's it for me. Thanks very much for watching. I'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern in "The Situation Room." For our international viewers, "Amanpour" is getting ready. She

starts coming up at the top of the hour.

For our viewers here in North America, "Newsroom" with Brooke Baldwin starts right now.